Sitting of 10 May 1830

MINUTES.
The Right Hon. M. Fitzgerald took the Oaths and his Seat as Member for Kerry; and G. G. W. Piggott, Esq. took the Oaths and his Seat as Member for St. Mawes. The Navy Pay Acts Amendment Bill was passed.
Returns ordered. Sums advanced for the Repairs and Alterations of Buckingham Palace, and Estimates of the Sums that will be required to complete it.
Petitions presented. Against the Stamp and Spirit Duties, by Mr. KNOX, from the Inhabitants of Newry:—By Colonel ARBUTHNOT, from Kincardine:—By Sir G. WARRENDER, from Haddington. Against the Punishment of Forgery by Death, by Lord STANLEY, from the Merchants, Bankers, and Manufacturers of Manchester and Salford.—By Mr. Alderman WOOD, from the Inhabitants of Gloster:—By Mr. BIRCH, from Bankers and other Inhabitants of Nottingham. The hon. Member also presented a Petition, with from 3,000 to 4,000 signatures, from Merchants, Manufacturers, and other Inhabitants of Nottingham, against the Monopoly of the East India Company.
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Against the Administration of Justice Bill, by Lord STANLEY, from the Solicitors of Manchester:—By Colonel TRENCH, from the Inhabitants of Cambridge, so far as it relates to prohibiting Arrests for Debts under 100 l. Against the Sale of Beer Bill, by Mr. BRAMSTON, from the Licensed Victuallers of Chelmsford; and from James Thorn, of Colchester:—By Lord STANLEY, from the Publicans of Haslingden:—By Colonel SIBTHORP, from the Brewers of Lincoln: By Mr. NORTON, from the Mayor and Magistrates of Guildford:—By Lord C. MANNERS, from the Inhabitants of Ely:—By Lord E. SOMERSET, from the Minister and Churchwardens of Wick Risington; from the Magistrates of the Hundred of Sleighton, Glostershire; from the Inhabitants of Cheltenham, South Cerney, Little Risington, Westcote, Wotton-under-Edge, and Wickwar:—By Mr. C. BARCLAY, from Anthony Tricker, Licensed Victualler in Glostershire:—And by Mr. WALROND, from the Clergy and other Inhabitants of Sudbury. Against the Truck System, by Lord E. SOMERSET, from Manufacturers and others engaged in the Woollen Trade, Glostershire. For extending the Trial by Jury in Scotland, by Sir G. WARRENDER, from the Merchants of Glasgow. For a reduction of Taxation, by Mr. RUMBOLD, from Great Yarmouth. Against the Bankrupt Laws Amendment Bill, by Colonel TRENCH, from the Inhabitants of Cambridge. Against Tithes, by Mr. COKE, from the Hundred of Diss, Norfolk.

WATERLOO BRIDGE.
Mr. Wallacepresented a Petition from the Waterloo Bridge Company, praying that a street may be made from Waterloo Bridge to Tottenham-court-road, &c.
Sir J. Yorkeobserved, that when on a former evening he wished to present a similar petition, he was prevented from making some observations in consequence of the long discussion that took place on another petition, which embraced four different points,—community, unity, navigation and trade,—which were ably discussed by the hon. Alderman, one of the members for London, by the hon. member for Newark, and the hon. member for Yorkshire. The consequence was, that he could not edge in a single word on that occasion. Now he contended that this was a Petition well worthy of the attention of the House. A street from Tottenham-court-road to Waterloo-bridge would, in conjunction with the improvements at Charing-cross, be a great convenience. Various reasons might be adduced in favour of such an opening. One of them was, that it would facilitate the approach to Somerset-house, and various other public establishments. At present there was no outlet to the northern parts of the metropolis, except those very narrow and extraordinary streets through which gentlemen were obliged to drive at present. He thought that a sum of money might, with great advantage, be laid out in carrying a plan of this kind into effect—and he was sure that it would ultimately pay the public. He could see no reason why money should be voted for im-

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proving the streets of Dublin, and that a similar provision should he refused with respect to those of London. He thought that Ministers ought to be anxious to form new streets as one way of perpetuating their names. As they had a Waterloo-bridge and a Wellington-place, why should they not have a Murray-square—a Goulburn-place—and a Dawson-alley? In their nautical discoveries this course had already been adopted. They had Melville Island—Barrow's Straits—Croker's Mountains—and even Warrender's Head. Me thought that such an example ought to be followed, and he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would, this evening, in moving the Miscellaneous Estimates, make a beginning.
The Petition was laid on the Table.

IRISH STAMP DUTIES.
Mr. Brownlowpresented two Petitions from the Letterpress Printers of Belfast, against the proposed increase of Duty on Stamps on Irish Newspapers, and on Advertisements inserted in them. The petitioners, as might naturally be expected, were much alarmed at the right hon. Gentleman's statement when he brought forward his Budget, that he meant to propose additional Stamp Duties on Ireland. At the moment that the Government took credit to itself for reductions, it was planning schemes for increasing the existing imposts. Ministers talked of liberality, and attacked that branch of our manufacture, if he might call newspapers a manufacture, which an enlightened Ministry would be the last to attack. He did not attribute to Ministers a cold-blooded desire to ruin the Irish press, but that would be the result of their proceedings. The circulation of all the newspapers would be injured by these new imposts, and some of them would be utterly annihilated. The newspaper trade in Ireland was already a declining one. In 1812 the duty on an advertisement was 1s. 6d.,and the revenue obtained from that duty was 20,000 l.; it was subsequently raised to 2s. 6d., and the revenue fell off to 14,000 l. In the face of that declining revenue the Ministers, with a view of increasing their resources, proposed the present addition. He was satisfied that if they lowered the duties they would gain instead of losing; and equally satisfied that by raising the rate of the duty the revenue would decrease still more. He hoped, therefore, that the
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right hon. Gentleman would pause before he carried into execution a measure equally adverse to the wishes of the people and the resources of the Government.
Mr. Jephsonconcurred with the petitioners, but thought that they did not go far enough. He would have the English Members unite with the Irish to resist the extension of Stamp duties in Ireland, and to reduce the duties on advertisements and on newspapers in England to a level with the duties in Ireland.
Mr. Humesaid, that if Ministers would reduce the rate of duties both in England and Ireland, the Revenue would be rather increased than diminished.
Sir H. Parnellwas also of opinion, that there was no tax, the reduction of which would so much benefit the people of England, while that reduction would, he believed, increase the Revenue on the Stamp-duties on Newspapers and Advertisements. The subject was so important that it ought to be considered generally and not locally with reference to Ireland alone.
Petitions to be printed.

BUSINESS OF PARLIAMENT.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer The Chancellor of the Exchequer, moved the Order of the Day for the House going into a Committee of Supply.
[Several Members objected to this, as there were yet Petitions to be presented. It was represented to them by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it was half-past eight o'clock, and there was much public business to be carried through, which could not possibly be accomplished if so much time were occupied in presenting petitions. Various suggestions were immediately thrown out as to the manner of disposing of this part of the business; but as the conversation ended in nothing, the Editor thinks it right not to occupy his space by inserting it. He is obliged however, to notice the fact, because it was the first distinct beginning of the complaints, that were frequently made by the Ministers before the close of the Session, that they could not transact the public business on account of the time occupied by presenting petitions and making speeches on them.]

GREEK LOAN.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwished to ask the hon. Gentleman opposite, when he proposed to present the petition from Birmingham, as it was desirable that his right

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hon. friend (Sir R. Peel) should be present.
Mr. E. Davenportsaid, that he would postpone it till Monday, when he understood the right hon. Secretary would he ready to attend. The right hon. Gentleman having asked him a question, he would beg leave to ask one in return. It should be remembered that the Parliament was getting old, and indeed it was not expected to survive the year, and it was therefore right that the country should be informed on the subject on which he meant to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman;—this subject was a Protocol, which was said by an Evening Paper to have been signed by the Ministers of France, England, and Russia, and which purported to be an engagement on the part of those three Powers for guaranteeing a loan to the Greek government. The amount was understood (but that did not appear from the document) to be between two and three millions, each Power being answerable for one-third, viz. 800,000 l. Without expressing any opinion, what he wished was, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should state to the House whether such an engagement had been entered into on the part of this country; in which case, hon. Gentlemen would judge for themselves whether it was fitting that the British Mouse of Commons should be the last body in Europe to receive information concerning this transaction.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhoped the hon. Gentleman would not hold it as any disrespect to himself if he stated that he considered it inconvenient in the extreme to enter into any of the points of a negociation that was unfinished, on account of any statements that might appear in foreign or domestic newspapers. He thought it more prudent to give no answer to the question of the hon. Gentleman, and he loss regretted it, because the papers which related to the whole transaction would be laid on the Table of the House in a short period, when the Members would have an opportunity of knowing what was the real state of the whole transaction.
Mr. Humesaid, that the question of the responsibility of this country for any loan to Greece ought to be fully understood; and before they proceeded to vote any further Supplies, they ought to have the whole liabilities of the year before them.
The Speaker put the question for the Committee of Supply.
Mr. Humesaid, that he must move the postponement of any further Supplies [cries of "No, No!"] He did not wish to go against the feeling of the House; but they had a right to understand what they were about.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, that they had lost half-an-hour in discussing what they should do next. He had three or four petitions to present, and should be glad to take his turn. He did not see that there was anything more indecorous in receiving Petitions than there was in voting money at a late hour.

SUPPLY.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply.
The first item was a grant of 6,000 l. for the Building of Churches in the West Indies for the year 1830.
Mr. R. Gordonwished to know, whether there was not to be some statement made relative to the distribution of the former grants made under this head, and how the present grant was to be appropriated.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the greatest part of that explanation was already on the Table of the House. Those grants had been made in consequence of what had taken place in 1825, with the view of improving the condition of the negroes, and were, he thought, in unison with the unanimous wish of the House at that time. Salaries were appropriated to Bishops and other clergymen—and other measures were taken for the moral improvement of the population of the Colonies, which had, he believed, fully succeeded. By the arrangements then made, the Colonies were to be at half the expense for erecting chapels, churches, &c. and the Government was to be at the other half. In compliance with this understanding, the Government had frequently submitted votes to Parliament, and sums had been continually granted. The money advanced by the Colonies for this object amounted to 23,930 l., while, (including the present grant) this country had only supplied 21,466 l. The rents of the Bishops' houses were paid out of the Civil Contingencies, but 8,000 l. had been laid out in 1827 to purchase a house, with a view to save the rent. A church had been built at Bridgetown, Barbadoes, for 8,800 l., of which this country had

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contributed 3,400 l. At Kingston a church had been built for 4,255 l., of which this country had paid 2,000 l. The establishment of these churches appeared to him to be one of the most effectual modes of improving the condition of the negro population; and as that had been in some measure promoted, agreeably to the wish of the House, Members would not, he thought, now have any objection to supply the means of attaining so important an object.
Mr. R. Gordonadmitted the correctness of the right hon. Gentleman's statements as to what had been the wish of the House, and he expressed his satisfaction at hearing that means had been taken to improve the Negro population; but he did not know in what papers to find the accounts to which the right hon. Gentleman had alluded; unless, indeed, they were to be found under the head of Army Extraordinaries; for it was there that he had once found an account of the expenses of the Bishop's House at Barbadoes. As he conceived, notwithstanding the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, that Parliament ought to have more information on the appropriation of what had been, and what was to be voted, than simply "For building Churches so much," he should oppose the grant.
Sir James Grahamrose to ask, as he saw a sum of 508 l. voted for the rent of a house for a Bishop of Barbadoes; whether that sum was for a second residence for the Bishop, as the House had just heard that a place had been built for that Ecclesiastic.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that this charge was for the rent of a house before the present one was built. It was a charge which would not be repeated in future.
Mr. Humewished to know, why the people of England should be obliged to pay for erecting palaces for the Bishops of the West-India islands? An end ought to be put to such extravagance. He should certainly oppose such votes. He wished to know why there was every year to be an additional expense under these heads, and he trusted the House would not sanction it by its vote.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the Bishops had been appointed, with the approbation and wish of the House for the ecclesiastical government of the West Indies. At first they were obliged to hire
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houses, and the rent of those houses was paid for by bills drawn on the Government, which were charged in the Army Extraordinaries. But it was desirable to relieve the country of that charge, and construct a residence for the Bishops. This had been done, and their houses were not, as the hon. Member said, palaces, but houses. If they were palaces, the Government deserved great credit for its economy in having built them for a sum of 4,000 l. each. Now the Bishops had houses provided for them, the country would not be called on to incur a similar expense again. The Parliament had given its assent to the appointment of the Bishops; it had thought a Church Establishment in the West Indies necessary, and houses for the Bishops were as necessary as churches.
Mr. Wilmot Hortonwas surprised at the notice that was now taken of the expenditure on this subject. The building of churches in the West Indies, and the sending out of Bishops was an arrangement called for by the West Indians themselves, as well as the people of this country. If the colonists would undertake to be at all the expense of subsequently supporting these establishments, they were told the Government would consent to the appointment. The proposition had come from the West Indians, and had met with the support of Parliament. It was thought to be of great importance, and the Government was called on to give it its support.
Sir James Grahamsaid, the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. Horton) would confer a great favour on himself and other Members, if he would point out to them where they could find an authentic account of the Colonial expenditure. He confessed that he had sought after this with some diligence, but he had been unable to discover any correct source whence he could learn what was the whole amount of our Colonial expenditure. His right hon. friend would not be surprised at this, when he reminded him of a document recently published—an authentic document, signed by the present Master of the Mint. He was not aware that any change had taken place in the Colonial management since that letter was written. He would, with permission of the House, read the letter, which had been printed at his request. It was a letter from the present Master of the Mint, who was then Secretary of the

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Treasury, to his right hon. friend, who was then Under-Secretary of the Colonies.
The hon. Baronet accordingly read the following letter:—
Treasury Chambers, 24 th March, 1827.
"Sir:—I am commanded by the Lords Commissioners of his Majesty's Treasury to transmit to you the accompanying papers, being statements prepared by the Auditors of Colonial Expenditure, showing the Income and Expenditure of Ceylon, the Mauritius, the Cape of Good Hope, Trinidad and Malta, for periods of ten and more years for each of them respectively, preceding the latest date up to which the accounts are in the possession of the Auditors, and I am to request that you will lay the same before Lord Bathurst, and call the serious attention of his Lordship to the results which are exhibited by these papers. His Lordship will perceive that the collective expenditure of these several Colonies has so greatly exceeded the Colonial Revenues, applicable to the discharge of it, as to have constituted a deficiency, amounting altogether to 2,524,000 l. according to the latest accounts under examination. Lord Bathurst will also observe, that according to the rate at which the income and expenditure of each of the Colonies were proceeding at those dates, the annual accruing deficiency could not be estimated at less than 200,000 l. My Lords are aware that these observations do not apply to Malta or Trinidad in the same manner as to the other Colonies, although they are included in this account, and that the excess of expenditure at the former of these, was owing to a peculiar calamity, which may not recur. They also bear in mind that at the Cape, the excess of expenditure beyond the Revenue has been small in comparison with that of the Mauritius and Ceylon; but they have judged it most advisable to present a view of the whole together. They are well aware that the expenditure by which the deficiencies above stated have been created, was incurred for public services such as could not, consistently with a due regard to the interests, either of the Colonies, or of the empire at large, have been avoided, and they desire to be distinctly understood as not intending to convey any doubt upon that subject, or to impute to those under whose control and management the expenditure in those past years was directed, any want of due regard to public economy, when they state their decided opinion that some alteration is urgently required in the system under which the financial arrangements of the Colonies (not having legislatures) has hitherto been conducted. My Lords are confident that Lord Bathurst will not hesitate to concur with them, as to the necessity of some change in this respect, when they draw his attention to the manner in which the above deficiency has been gradually created, and principally provided for. It appears that of the above-mentioned sum of 2,524,000 l. there has been furnished out of the public funds of the United
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Kingdom, partly by bills upon this Board, by advances to the agents for the Colonies, and by the discharge of debts to the East India Company, about 2,435,000 l. and that the remainder is still existing as a debt of the Colony, either in the shape of a paper circulation without funds for the discharge of it, or in some other form, in addition to all the debt of this description which existed at the commencement of the account. Of the expenditure thus defrayed, or remaining to be defrayed under the authority of this Board, I am to observe, that under the system hitherto pursued, the greater part has been incurred without any previous communication with my Lords; and that the Treasury has been uninformed, not only of the measures which have from time to time led to occasional and extraordinary expenses in these Colonies, but even of the state of their ordinary revenues and the permanent charges upon them. My Lords have therefore had no opportunity either of preparing for such expenses, as it might be indispensable to provide for by funds at home in aid of the revenues of the Colonies, or of suggesting, with respect to those services which might have been susceptible of reduction or postponement, such modifications as a due regard to other more pressing demands upon the general funds of the United Kingdom would have rendered expedient. Of the great inconveniences to which this imperfect administration of an important branch of the public expenditure is obviously liable, my Lords are well assured that Lord Bathurst will entertain the same opinion with themselves; and I am therefore to request that you will submit to his Lordship the desire of this Board, to receive as early as possible an estimate of the present and permanent annual revenue, and also of the present and prospective annual expenditure of each of the above-named Colonies, in such detail as may enable their Lordships to communicate fully with Lord Bathurst upon the subject, in order to determine in what manner, whether by diminution of expenditure or augmentation of the Colonial Revenue, if any such be practicable, or by the aid of additional funds under the authority of Parliament, if such should be indispensably necessary, a regular and sufficient provision may be made for the charges to be defrayed in each Colony, instead of throwing an excess of yearly expenditure unprovided for, according to the present practice, upon the annual grant for the extraordinaries of the army. I am to add, that the information which has been obtained from the Auditors of Colonial Accounts upon this subject, does not afford to my Lords the knowledge which they desire to have of the present and prospective state of the revenues and expenses of the several Colonies, inasmuch as that information relates only to periods already long passed, and it does not appear that the Auditors are competent to supply any other.—I am, &c.
(Signed) "J. C. HERRIES."

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From this letter, the hon. Baronet continued, it appeared, that nothing was known of the colonial expenditure; that even the auditors could give no account of it, and that the Treasury knew nothing about it. He believed that the vicious system described in that document had not been changed, and that no improvement had been made in it. A board under the Government, indeed, had been appointed to investigate these abuses; but three years had elapsed since that document was written, and the same abuses were continued. The House ought not, in his opinion, to vote one farthing, till the report of this Board of Commissioners was made, and till this most flagrant and most vicious system of the Executive Government was corrected. The House would not discharge its duty if it voted these sums till then. At least in future, an estimate of the expenses of the principal colonies ought regularly to be laid before the House every year, by the minister for the colonies, like the estimates for the other branches of the public expenditure. A budget for the colonies, with ways and means, ought annually to be submitted to the House; and if that were not done, the House would not be justified in continuing to vote money for the expenses of the Colonies.
Mr. Wilmot Hortonsaid, his hon. friend must be aware that the answer to the document he had read had been moved for: and he was surprised that it was not yet laid on the Table of the House. When that answer was laid on the Table the two documents might be considered together; but it was hardly fair to discuss one without the other. He would only observe, that the Colonial Auditors were not appointed by the Colonial Office, but by the Lords of the Treasury. It was, however, of more importance to consider what ought to be, than what had been done, and though there were many official difficulties in the way of the proposition of his hon. friend, he agreed with him in thinking that a regular Estimate of Colonial expenditure ought annually to be submitted to Parliament.
Mr. Herriessaid, as he was the author of the letter alluded to, he would say a few words, though he was convinced that it would be proper to postpone the discussion till the other document was laid on the Table. He would, in the first place, say, that the hon. member for Cumberland
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was quite unwarranted in his assumption that no improvement had been made in the Colonial management since the date of the document he had quoted. He could assure the hon. Member that in this he was mistaken; and if the hon. Member had attended to the information laid before the Finance Committee, he would have found that the management of the Colonies was not so defective as he supposed. Respecting the auditors' ignorance to which the hon. Baronet alluded, that was merely an ignorance of the estimate of the expense in future, which the auditors could not know.
Mr. Humesaid, that the letter quoted was dated in April, 1828, and there had been certainly some accounts laid before the Finance Committee. He had urged the Government to have these accounts printed and laid before the House; and he had understood that it was to be done. He was surprised, indeed, that they had not already been laid on the Table; and he could only account for it by supposing that at the Colonial office little or nothing was done. Three weeks had elapsed since one letter was ordered, and it was not yet ready, which was a pretty good specimen of the negligence at that office. Till the accounts he had mentioned were laid on the Table, he, for one, should be unwilling to vote a shilling for the Colonies. The Report of the Commissioners ought, indeed, first to be laid on the Table before any money was voted. The Colonies were loaded with unnecessary officers, with large salaries; they were unable to support their own expenditure, and the country was accordingly called on to support their expensive establishments. He was afraid that Government was tardy in submitting the documents to the House because they would not justify its extravagant expenditure.
Sir J. Grahamsaid, as he had not been a member of the Finance Committee, he could not judge of the improvement made in the management of the Colonies by the documents submitted to that Committee; but he saw before him the Chairman of that Committee, and he had lately given to the public, in an authentic form, the result of its labours. Within two months the judgment of that hon. Baronet was, that the Colonial accounts were in a state of unintelligible confusion. It was at that hon. Baronet's suggestion that he had taken the liberty of inquiring into the

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matter. He would admit that he was in error if the right hon. Gentleman opposite, or any of the right hon. Gentlemen sitting near him, would state from any source the entire sum demanded from this country for the support of the Colonies. If they would tell him from the Miscellaneous Estimates, the Civil Contingencies, and the Army Extraordinaries—for under each of these heads there were charges for the Colonies—the amount of the expenditure, he would at once admit that the accounts were intelligible and that he was wrong.
Sir George Murrayadmitted that it would be very proper to have Colonial Estimates, both of the expenditure and the receipts of the Colonies; and he should have no objection to prepare such documents, if it could be accomplished in future, though he believed that there would be many difficulties in the way. With respect to the observation of the hon. member for Aberdeen concerning the documents submitted to the Finance Committee, it happened that those documents were very incorrect, and the remoteness of the Colonies had prevented him from obtaining the corrections necessary to make them fit to be submitted to the House. With regard to the letter which had been read, the other document connected with it was about to be laid on the Table, and then the two might be considered together.
Mr. Warburtonwished to say a few words on the vote before the Committee. The Government desired to have a large Church establishment and extensive patronage, with Bishops, and fine churches; and in order to have these, it had been anxious to get rid of the Moravians, who were far better qualified to teach both the negroes and the whites of the West-Indies religion than the members of our Established Church. The Moravians were humble men, who lowered themselves to the humble intellect of the people they undertook to instruct. So long, however, as the House voted money, so long would there be Bishops, and churches to be paid for.
Mr. Bernaldenied that the West-Indians had demanded the establishment of Bishops in the West-Indies, but he remembered that expressions reflecting on the religion of the West-Indians had been used in that House, and he remembered that a Church establishment had been described by several hon. Members as a desideratum in the Colonies, and that the West-Indians
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had assented to the plan, though the proposition did not originate with that body. The West-Indians did not wish, and never had wished, to interfere with the Moravians, or to get rid of them; but they had wished to have proper spiritual guides. His hon. friend had spoken of palaces; but he believed the palaces built for the Bishops were only common houses. He wished that a Colonial budget should be annually submitted to the House, and it would then be seen that Jamaica cost this country very little. It defrayed all the expenses of its internal government, the salary of the Governor, and of all the public officers; and it defrayed the expense of a great portion of the King's troops, which were kept for the defence of that valuable colony. Other colonies in the West-Indies cost this country very small sums; and he believed if the 4½ A per cent duties were applied as they ought to be, those colonies would not put this country to one farthing expense. He was willing to unite himself to the hon. member for Cumberland in all his praiseworthy undertakings; but he ought to recollect that a large portion of the expense he had referred to in the letter he had quoted, arose from other colonies than those of the West-Indies. That letter related chiefly to the Cape of Good Hope, the Mauritius, and Ceylon.
Mr. Wilmot Hortonmaintained, that the West-Indians had desired the appointment of the Bishops, and complained that he had been exposed to the attacks of both parties. He had been censured by one writer, a Mr. McQueen, who had received, it was said, 3,000 l. from the West-Indian body, for making every appointment in the Colonies with a view to promote the emancipation of the negroes, and ruin the planter; and he had been threatened with opposition in the town he represented, because he was the enemy of emancipation. He had endeavoured to guide his course impartially, but it was his fate to be condemned by both parties. This was too bad, and it was still worse that they both pursued him into private life, and even now continued to make him the object of their censure.
Mr. Maberlythought it would be better that the documents alluded to by the gallant Officer should be printed and laid before the House, although they were incorrect, rather than that the House should be left without any information.
Sir G. Murraysaid, that those docu-

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ments were so very inaccurate, that it would have been improper to lay them before the House; and he regretted that the distance of the Colonies had hitherto prevented the inaccuracies from being corrected.
Mr. Maberlyinquired how long it would probably be before those documents would be ready? If they were not likely speedily to be ready, he should move that the inaccurate documents be printed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobjected, that it would be a pity to print inaccurate accounts, when no harm could arise from a short delay, particularly as any Member who chose might have access to those accounts in their present state.
Mr. Trantwished that the Colonial budget should include India, as the accounts of the finances of that country were formerly laid before Parliament regularly, and with great advantage to both countries.
Sir James Grahamwas of opinion, that a commission appointed by his Majesty would be better to inquire into the Colonial expenditure than a committee of that House: but as the efficiency of such a commission would depend altogether on the persons who composed it, he begged leave to ask the right hon. Gentleman the names of the commissioners.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the commissioners were the Earl of Rossyln, the member for Kerry, Sir W. Gordon, Lord Eliot, and himself, and they were disposed to prosecute every requisite inquiry.
Mr. Portmanwas anxious to hear the Government pledged to bring forward next year a sort of Colonial budget, and to declare that he Could not consent to vote any more public money for the Colonies till a pledge of that kind was given.
Sir George Murraysaid, if it should be his duty to perform such a task next year, he would willingly bring forward a Colonial budget.
Lord Howickwished to know if the grant were to be expended upon churches already begun, or if they were not commenced?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the works were generally commenced upon the faith of receiving these grants from Parliament.
Mr. Gordonobjected to the grant being at the disposal of Government, as there was no uniformity of system in the application of the money voted for the service
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of the Colonies. It was partially distributed. He thought that accounts had better be laid before the House, and that a committee of the House would be preferable to a commission.
Mr. Broughamsaid, the Committee was voting away money in the dark: he would not vote even 6l., much less 6,000 l., for establishments, which in his opinion, were not the best calculated for the religious wants of the people of the Colonies. He wished also to know whether the churches were begun or not, for which the sum of 6,000 l. was required; for if they were not, it would be better, in his opinion, not to vote the money till more information was laid before the House. If the works were begun, the House could probably not refuse the grant without a breach of faith. He wished to know what islands had voted aids to this grant, what was the amount of the votes, and whether such votes were in the course of expenditure?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the Treasury did not give the money until they received a certificate from the Bishops, that the funds voted by the Colonies were in course of expenditure.
Mr. Broughamwished to know when the statement that the money had been raised in the Colonies had been received; and how the 6,000 l. now required was to be expended?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated, that the certificates from the Bishops had been sent home at various times, the last came, he believed, in the autumn. He could not specify the particular churches the 6,000 l. would be appropriated to build, but he had a list in his hands of all those to the building of which it was to be applied.
Mr. Humethought the right hon. Gentleman ought to be prepared with more circumstantial information before he came down to the House to ask for a grant of money.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the money was chiefly to be expended in Antigua and Barbadoes.
Mr. Stanleywished for the details of the expenditure.
Lord Howickwas for suspending the vote till next Session.
The Question was put and carried.
The next Vote was for 8,000 l. for Piers at Milford Haven.
Mr. Humethought that it would be

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throwing away money to apply it to such a purpose.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the subject had been investigated by a committee in 1827, and that committee reported, that in order to facilitate the communication between England and the South of Ireland a landing place was necessary, and in pursuance of that recommendation the plan was adopted for which money was then required.
Mr. O'Connellcomplained of the tardy and circuitous rout of the post under the existing regulations. Although the expense had been incurred, Ireland derived no benefit from it.
Mr. Rice Trevorsaid, that an excellent road had been made for a considerable distance, but there was no means of getting a gentleman's carriage to it. The sum proposed was necessary to complete the communication with the South of Ireland, which would be of great utility to both kingdoms.
Lord Ebringtonhaving been a member of the committee mentioned by the Chancellor of the Exchequer felt himself bound to confirm the statements of that right hon. Gentleman.
Vote agreed to.
12,000 l. was next proposed to be granted to his Majesty, towards defraying the expenses of a State Paper Office, to be built in Duke Street, Westminster.
Mr. Humesaid, he did not object to the grant. He thought, however, the situation selected for this office had been ill chosen.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercontended it was most convenient, on account of its proximity to the public offices.
Mr. J. Woodcomplained of the unprotected stale of the records in Westminster Hall. He suggested that no time should be lost in their removal.
Mr. Ewartwished to inquire if any alterations were to be made in the entrance and interior of the courts of Westminster Hall, which, in their present state, were found to be extremely inconvenient. He had presented a petition on the subject, and was desirous of obtaining information as to the intentions of the Government concerning it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he was extremely anxious to effect the removal of the records, and he was happy to tell the hon. Member who had asked the question, that the records of the Com-
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mon Pleas would be very soon transferred to a house in Westminster belonging to the Government; and it would be his duty, as it was his disposition, to remove all the other records into some place of safety as soon as he possibly could, leaving it to be decided, on some future day, whether it would not be advisable to erect some building in which all of them might be deposited. He knew that there had been complaints made of want of room in the Courts of Westminster Hall, and he had received a memorial suggesting the propriety of making alterations upon a plan which the House had before condemned. That he did not consider it advisable to assent to; but he was, at the same time, most anxious to promote the object which the memorialists had in view; and to obtain for gentlemen connected with the law, that accommodation in the courts which they ought to have; but he was afraid that the space was too limited to allow of compliance with their wishes.
Lord Miltonsuggested to the right hon. Gentleman the propriety of providing some secure place also for the records preserved in Doctors' Commons, on which so much of the property of the country depends.
Vote agreed to.
4,700 l. was voted to defray the expenses of the Commissioners of the Holy-head and Howth Harbour Roads.
10,000 l. was voted to defray the expense of the new buildings in the British Museum, for the year 1830.
30,500 l. was proposed for the purpose of defraying the expense of all salaries and allowances of the Officers of the Houses of Lords and Commons, for the year 1830.
Mr. Humesaid, it would be extremely desirable that the House should have a detailed account of this Estimate, which seemed very large; and before the report was brought up he should endeavour to get some correct information laid before the House.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the sum then moved for was absolutely necessary in addition to the fees received by the officers of both Houses. The little difference between this and former estimates on the same account, arose from a fluctuation in the amount of fees.
Vote agreed to; as was a vote of 17,000 l. to defray the expenses of the Houses of Lords and Commons for the year 1830.
It was proposed that 24,000 l. should be granted to his Majesty to make good the deficiency in the Fee Fund of the several public offices in the Treasury Department for the year 1830.
Mr. R. Gordonwished to have the Estimate drawn up in a different form in future years. He did not object to the vote; but as the Estimate now stood it was impossible to know how the money was to be applied.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwould have no objection to meet the wishes of he hon. Member, and in future would take care that the manner in which the different sums, composing the whole of this vote were appropriated, should be set forth.
Mr. Portmansaid, it had been his intention to move that a reduction of one-tenth should be made in all salaries above 200 l. a-year paid for the public service; he would not, however, bring the matter forward that Session, as he was not possessed of the necessary documents. He had no means of ascertaining the amount of money paid to the public servants, and he might, if he carried such a motion, be inflicting injury on the few without conferring benefit on the many. He would, therefore, abandon his design for the present; and in doing so begged to ask the right hon. Gentleman opposite if he would have any objection to furnish him with accounts, before the next Session, of the sums paid by the public for all officers and for all services above 200 l. a-year.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that the Government had intimated its intention to him of opposing the motion which he proposed to bring forward to-morrow night; in which, if he succeeded, he could pledge himself to the hon. member for Dorsetshire that he would show him the amount of all the principal salaries. And this he knew would answer the hon. Member's purpose, who was as little disposed as himself to stoop to ignoble game, while flights of voracious birds of prey were gloating in the upper regions of the air. They would direct all their efforts against these, and urge them by every argument, ad invidiam and ad verecundiam, to adopt that course which had been pursued by only one officer then serving his Majesty. He meant the Duke of Northumberland, the Viceroy of Ireland [cries of "Lord Camden"]. Lord Camden had made the sacrifice of his
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salary long ago—it was before the pressure of distress was so universally felt by the nation, and before an urgent cry for relief had been raised by the people in that House, through the voice of their representatives [cries of "Mr. Moore"]. He had forgotten Mr. Moore, whose conduct was certainly deserving of the highest praise; but thus it was, that the only instances of patriotism were to be found in the persons of one amongst the humblest and one amongst the most exalted of the public servants. He would accordingly, if the information he sought for were denied, call upon the House to declare whether it was a thing to be endured that they, the guardians of the public purse, should be left in ignorance as to the mode in which the public money was expended. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman that it was just as painful to him to put these interrogatories, as it was irksome for the right hon. Gentleman to reply to them; but he had a public duty to perform, and would not, consequently, hesitate to show how ignorant a country gentleman could be of the arcana of office by asking him to explain what the Fee Fund was, and what was the meaning of the several items he saw connected with it, under the title of Superannuations and Retired Allowances.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercomplained, that the hon. Baronet, notwithstanding all his professions, did not act with that frankness towards his political opponents for which he was disposed to take credit. The hon. Baronet, in saying that Government had declared its intention of opposing his motion, had only given half the statement that was made to him, because it was added, that the hon. member for Lincoln had moved for a series of Returns so ample that they would embrace all the hon. Baronet proposed, and, consequently, that Government would find it necessary to oppose the granting of any partial Returns. He therefore denied any wish to exclude the House from information on the subject of those salaries. He also thought it extremely hard that he, who honestly, though perhaps inefficiently, discharged his duties in an office for which he received that remuneration bestowed on his predecessors, had been designated as a bird of prey, rather than the hon. Baronet, who enjoyed the income derived from the territorial possessions of his ancestors.

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From what vocabulary was it that the hon. Baronet derived such phrases; or, why was it that he was to be subjected to them in a society of Gentlemen? Notwithstanding what had fallen from the hon. Baronet, he should be always happy to give him all the information in his power: but as for the Fee Fund, it had been, on several occasions, sufficiently explained.
Sir J. Grahamadmitted, that he had, when speaking on this subject, employed a metaphor which had drawn an expression of feeling from the right hon. Gentleman that he was very sorry to observe. He was bound to apologise for the metaphor, which he could assure the right hon. Gentleman he had not meant to be personal in any manner, or offensive to him, when he indulged in it. The right hon. Gentleman had certainly soared into the higher regions with much industry, but without any stain whatever on his character. Having thus apologised for the form of the expression, he must, with every possible deference to the right hon. Gentleman, adhere to its spirit, and must contend that it was unworthy of the Government to cut down the salaries of inferior clerks, while the great officers of the State, possessed of private fortunes, wealthy connections, and ten thousand other advantages which these clerks did not enjoy, were allowed to remain with undiminished salaries. He begged to state now, that he should submit a motion on this subject to-morrow; and he wished to observe, that the motion of the hon. member for Lincoln, which went to obtain a Return of the salaries of all the officers of the Government, from the highest to those who had only 200 l. a year, would by no means meet the object he had in view, which was to direct attention particularly to the salaries enjoyed by the members of the Privy Council.
Colonel Sibthorpalso thought, that the two motions would not interfere with each other, and he should certainly support that of the hon. member for Cumberland, believing that it would not render his own unnecessary.
Mr. Humewished to recall the Committee to the consideration of the vote before it, and to the whole subject of which it was a part. The vote was to make good the deficiency in the Fee Fund, part of that going to pay the public servants of the Treasury, who derived their emoluments from no less than fifteen dif-
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ferent sources. The whole estimate for the services of the Treasury in 1797 was about 44,000 l., but now it amounted to 87,000 l. He could not conceive what reason there was for so considerable a difference; particularly as the accounts were now more simplified than they were then, and the whole business better arranged. In 1827 the Fee Fund was 294,000 l., of which 130,000 l. only was appropriated by Act of Parliament, and out of which 93,000 l. was paid into the Exchequer as fees on the issue and receipt of our own money. He thought that was most wasteful extravagance. We were paying money twice over, because the Treasury would not simplify the accounts. Promises to do that had been made year after year, which had never been fulfilled, and he did not know whether the solemn pledge given this year would not also be violated. He wished to ask how it was that Mr. Stewart, the present Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, received the same salary as his predecessor, when the Treasury Minute of 1821 directed its reduction on the next vacancy from 2,500 l. a year to 2,000 l. a year?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that Mr. Stewart's predecessor had other allowances which the present possessor of the office did not enjoy. At the same time his labours were so great, that they were not more than paid by 2,500 l. a year.
Mr. Humereplied, that Mr. Hill, the former holder of the office, had been a man of long experience in business, and yet the same salary was now given to the present officer, perhaps because he was a military man. If Treasury Minutes were to be so violated, he did not see of what use they were.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that the salary was not kept up to 2,500 l. a year in favour of any particular individual. The hon. member for Cricklade, who sat immediately under the hon. member for Montrose, had suggested the observation as to Colonel Stewart having been a military man. It was true he had been so, and had served with distinguished merit in the Rifle Brigade, during the Peninsular War; but it was not on his military services that his claim to his present salary had been founded. After the peace, Colonel Stewart had entered the Civil service, and, as Comptroller of the Army-accounts, had laboured most effectually for the public advantage. His

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exertions had recommended him to the post of a Commissioner of the Excise in Ireland, when preparations were making to consolidate the different Boards. In that office he saved a considerable sum of money to the public, by the investigations he instituted and the control he exercised over the subordinate officers of his department. On the first vacancy of a Chairmanship here, Lord Liverpool, who approved most highly of his services, appointed him Chairman to the Board of Stamps; and from a sense of his zeal and ability in the public service, he himself had recommended Mr. Stewart to the Duke of Wellington, who certainly had not selected him on account of his being a military man.
Mr. Gordonsaid, it was disagreeable when these discussions were made personal. The question did not relate to the individual who held the office, and who might fully deserve the encomiums that had been passed on him—but to the pledge which the Government had given that the successor of Mr. Hill should not have more than 2,000 l. a year. If the Minute of 1821 was not to be adhered to, no advantage was derived from it, and, in fact it was a delusion on the public.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that Mr. Hill, who had been appointed alter that Treasury Minute was made, had 2,500 l. continued to him in deference to his great capabilities for the office, and his great previous services. Although Colonel Stewart could not. boast of such long services as Mr. Hill, his great merits was considered to take his case out of the general rule.
Lord Miltonobserved, that it appeared from the right hon. Gentleman, that this place was, in fact, made a means of remunerating individuals—a practice which he thought quite improper, after that House had recommended, and a Treasury Minute had directed, a reduction of the salary attached to it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeragreed that it would be improper to make the place a means of remunerating individuals, but he denied that it was so, and asserted that the great duties of the office, and the great merit of the two individuals, made such a salary not more than sufficient.
Lord Miltonremarked, that the result of this was, that in 1830, the right hon. Gentleman thought fit to pay 2,500 l. a year for the office, when the Treasury, in 1821,
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had declared that 2,000 l. a year was sufficient. Of course, when the Treasury made this minute, they fully intended that the office should be filled by a man of ability.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that the Treasury of 1824 thought that the office could not be paid for by less than 2,500 l. a year, for it was they who had appointed Mr. Hill.
Lord Miltonanswered, that these facts only showed that the Lords of the Treasury had twice violated the principle of their own Minute.
Mr. C. Woodsaid, that after the successive appointments of two individuals at a salary greater than the Treasury Minute of 1821 declared to be sufficient, he could not understand what the right hon. Gentleman meant by saying that it had been the constant attempt of the Government to adhere to that Minute, and to reduce as much as possible the expenses of the Treasury. The question was, whether the House would agree with the Treasury in what they had thus done. He would put that question to the proof, by moving that the vote be reduced by 500 l. If a man's salary were to be increased in proportion to the time that he had served, there was no saying to what its amount would be limited. He moved that the vote should be diminished by the sum of 500 l.
Mr. Humesaid, that the Treasury Minute had equally recommended the reduction of the salaries of the chief clerks. He wished to know if that recommendation was to be adhered to?
The Chancellor of the Exchequeranswered in the affirmative, and added, that to show how anxious the Government had been to adopt economical principles, it had reduced a Commissioner of Stamps, whose salary was 1,000 l. a year; and thus, in effect, the salary of the present Assistant-Secretary of the Treasury left a balance of 500 l. a year in favour of the public.
Lord Miltonsaid, this was more extraordinary than ever, for it showed that the Government reduced salaries where the reduction was not recommended, in order to be able to continue those which not only that House but the Treasury had recommended should be reduced.
Mr. Stanleywas also of opinion that the Ministers could not justify their conduct in maintaining the one salary against

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the recommendation of that House, by saying that they had, of their own accord, reduced another. Nor ought they to be allowed to continue a high salary on the pretence of the singular merit of each individual who filled the office; for if they did so, the exception would then become the rule, and the singular merit of each Government officer would be pleaded against the reduction of his salary.
Mr. F. Lewisopposed the Amendment, on the ground, which had been over and over again stated in debates of this kind—that nothing could be more unwise or impolitic than for Government to put itself in the situation of not being able to obtain the services of those who were most capable and efficient. Mr. Burke had especially dwelt upon this principle in his celebrated speech upon Economical Reform. Mr. Stewart had been Chairman of the Board of Stamps with a salary of 2,000 l. a year, and he had been removed to a situation of ten-fold the duty and double the responsibility under an expectation, which had been realised for two or three years, that his emoluments should be increased to the extent of 500 l. a year. Would it not then be most unfair now to deprive him of that sum? It seemed to him impossible that the House of Commons could pursue a course of such intolerable injustice. From what he had seen of the office and its duties, he did, in his conscience believe, that a man who adequately discharged them amply earned the salary of 2,500 l.; and it was not to be forgotten that an ordinary individual would not be competent to the situation.
Lord Howicksuggested that the salary of the Chairman of the Board of Stamps clearly ought to be reduced, if, as the hon. Member who last spoke had said, the duties of the Assistant-secretary of the Treasury were ten times more laborious and twice as responsible. Supposing the Assistant-secretary properly paid by 2,500 l. the Chairman of the Board of Stamps was much overpaid. He should vote for the Amendment, as he was satisfied that the sum in question ought to be saved to the public.
Mr. E. Davenportadverted to the altered circumstances of the country, and observed, that if justice were due to public officers, some little justice was also due to those who paid them.
Mr. Maberlyfelt himself placed in a difficult situation: if he voted according
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to what he conceived to be the value of Mr. Stewart's services, he should grant the whole sum; but if he voted according to the Treasury Minute, he should refuse to give more than 2,000 l., because the Lords of the Treasury had said (and it could not be denied that they were competent judges) that the Assistant-secretary ought to receive no more. He thought that the determination of the Lords of the Treasury ought to be supported, even in the face of Mr. Stewart's high and acknowledged merits, and he should, therefore, divide in favour of the Amendment.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgeraldbore testimony to the extraordinary and most severe labours of the Assistant-secretary of the Treasury: it would be false economy to reduce his salary, especially in the face of the principle established by the Report of the Finance Committee. The Assistant-secretary was the working and controlling-authority of the department, and his responsibility, as well as his labours, was great. To reduce the just rewards of faithful and efficient officers of the State would not be greater injustice to the individual than to the public.
Mr. C. Woodsaid, that he should persevere in his Amendment, and take the sense of the House upon it. He gave more weight to the Treasury Minute, deliberately made, than to the speeches of right hon. and hon. Members who wished that it should go for nothing. His Amendment was to reduce the vote of 24,000 l. to 23,500 l.
Sir G. Warrendersupported the original vote, on the ground of justice to Mr. Stewart.
The Committee then divided—For the Motion 178; For the Amendment 106—Majority 72.

List of the Minority.

Althorp, Lord

Crompton, S.

Baring, F.

Clive, E. B.

Baring, Sir T.

Calvert, C.

Baring, B.

Cavendish, W.

Belgrave, Lord

Colborne, R.

Beaumont, T. W.

Clements, Lord

Benett, J.

Davenport, E. D.

Bernal, R.

Davies, Colonel

Birch, J.

Duncombe, T.

Blandford, Marquis

Dundas, T.

Bright, H.

Dawson, A.

Brougham, H.

Dickinson, W.

Brougham, J.

Denison, J. E.

Brownlow, C.

Ebrington, Lord

Buck, L. W.

Encombe, Lord

Carter, J.

Ewart, W.

527

Euston, Lord

Pendarvis, E. W.

Fazakerley, N.

Palmer, F.

French, A.

Price, Sir R.

Fane, Hon. J.

Rumbold, G. E.

Fyler, T. B.

Rice, S.

Guise, Sir B. W.

Ridley, Sir M. W.

Gascoyne, General

Rancliffe, Lord

Gordon, R.

Robarts, A.

Grattan, J.

Robinson, Sir George

Graham, Sir J.

Rickford, W.

Guest, J. J.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Howick, Lord

Stanley, Lord

Honywood, W. P.

Stuart, Lord J.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Stewart, J.

Heathcote, Sir W.

Slaney, A.

Jephson, C. D. O.

Sadler, M. T.

Kennedy, T. F.

Stanley, Hon. E. G.

Killeen, Lord

Thomson, P.

Knight, R.

Trant, W. H.

Langston, J. H.

Tomes, J.

Lambert, J. S.

Wilson, Sir R.

Lester, B.

Wyvill, M.

Lennard, T. B.

White, Colonel

Labouchere, H.

Wilbraham, G.

Lawley, F.

Wrottesley, Sir J.

Lamb, Hon. G.

Warburton, H.

Milton, Lord

Whitbread, S.

Morpeth, Lord

Whitmore, W. W.

Monck, T. B.

Western, C. C.

Maberly, J.

Webb, Colonel

Macauley, C.

Wood, Alderman

Macdonald, Sir J.

Wood, J.

Marshall, W.

TELLERS.

Nugent, Lord

Hume, J.

O'Connell, D.

Wood, C. PAIRED OFF

Ponsonby, W.

Portman, E. B.

Denison, W. J.

Philips, G. R.

Ferguson, Sir R.

Parnell, Sir H.

Fortescue, G. M.

Phillimore, Dr.

Harvey, D. W.

Power, R.

Rowley, Sir W.

Poyntz, S.

The House resumed: the Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Wednesday.

DESERTED CHILDREN (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord Leveson Gower Lord Leveson Gower moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Deserted Children (Ireland) Bill.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that at that hour of the night it was impossible that the public business could be well done. He admitted that more business was gone through at that hour than at an earlier hour, but not done—at least, not well done. If there were really so much business before the House, why did not the Session begin at an earlier period of the year, and why did it not continue to a later period? Hon. Gentlemen had a great anxiety to be returned to that House, but had they an anxiety to do
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the public business? For himself he knew how to manage the matter by moving a call of the House. The fact was, that in their proceedings it was important to connect them with public opinion, and to ascertain the public sentiment with respect to them; and it was well known that they could not collect public opinion relative to what took place in that House at an advanced hour, for their later proceedings were not made known; therefore with respect to them, their constituents, and the public at large, could not be said to exercise any judgment. On a late occasion discourses were pronounced which would have excited some attention had they gone before the public. For these reasons then, he should move an adjournment.
Mr. Maberlyseconded the Amendment.
Mr. Dohertysaid, his noble friend the Secretary for Ireland had moved that the Speaker do leave the Chair, and that the Bill in question be re-committed, with a view to its being printed. It was of great consequence to Ireland that that Bill should pass, and the House could not help observing that the hon. member for Clare had taken that opportunity of attempting to arrest the progress of the Bill, by moving an adjournment; but he had not stopped short there—he had read the House a lecture, and it was to be expected that he should teach them by his precepts and his example a better performance of their duty than they could yet boast of. He had told them that speeches had been made in that House which deserved further notice. Yes, it was true, speeches had been made there which did demand a reply; but until that reply had been made, the hon. and learned member for Clare would do well to refrain from lecturing the House in the tone which he had then thought proper to assume.
Mr. Slaneysaid, that the hour was not late, nor the number of Members present small, and he hoped, therefore, that the hon. member for Clare would not press his motion.
Lord F. L. Gowerobserved, it was the intention of the Government to reduce the expenses of the Foundling Hospital in Dublin; but as to the present Bill, it did not commit the House to anything. His object merely was, by printing the Bill, to put Members in possession of its contents. Mr. Rice would support the adjournment if the motion before the House com-

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milted them to any proposition whatever. Business could not be done, however, if bills were not allowed to come unopposed to a certain stage, and then be printed; nor could it ever be done if these first steps were prevented on account of the lateness of the hour.
[No division took place, the hon. member for Clare not pressing his motion, and the House resolved itself info a committee.]
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that he did not wish to revive topics connected with the late condition of Ireland, but they had been forced upon him. Recent feelings were no doubt acute, but still more recent circumstances had tended to mitigate them. For himself, he had but one wish, which was, to bury the whole in oblivion; but instead of being met by a reciprocal sentiment, such direct attacks were made upon him, that even the English Gentlemen around, whose knowledge of him must necessarily be imperfect, felt the justice of extending their reproof to the violence of that assault. Though unwilling to press such a subject, he could inform them that he was prepared to bring forward such proofs as would establish every assertion he made, there or elsewhere, respecting the trials that had been alluded to. He confessed he was unwilling to introduce into Parliament that Irish squabble; but after what had occurred, he thought it incumbent upon him to state, that to-morrow he would present petitions relating to the trials at Borrisokane, and to what was called the conspiracy at Doneraille. He had looked at some of the newspapers, and he declared himself perfectly ready and able to support anything he had ever said, and even much of what had been imputed to him. He possessed evidence which there was only one way of avoiding, and that was by the House refusing to give him an opportunity of laying it before them; for every fact he stated he could produce the testimony of the most trustworthy persons; and he had no doubt that the result would be, that the House and the public would feel that those trials were mismanaged, to say the least. On the present occasion his object was to aid, as far as his power permitted, in doing away with the practice of carrying through business at a late hour, particularly business which related to a country in which people had been silenced in more ways than one, including the despotic power possessed by the Irish government.
Lord F. L. Gowersaid, the hon. and learned Member should recollect that he had indulged in assertions in Ireland that might do mischief, and could not at the moment be answered. As to the latter observation of the hon. and learned Member, he could only say that he was ready to vindicate every act of the Irish Government.
Mr. Dohertyinquired if Mr. O'Connell gave notice for to-morrow.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, he gave notice that to-morrow he should give the names of the petitioners and of the witnesses. He had said nothing that he would not readily repeat. He was sorry that the subject had not been brought forward at an earlier period of the Session, and then the House could perhaps have formed a better judgment. The fact was, that the people of Ireland had become reconciled to each other without the aid of the Government, and contrary to the effect of its measures. He regretted to say that the government of Ireland had done nothing to make the Relief Bill effectual. The gentlemen of the bar, he thought, had some reason to complain: not one Catholic barrister having been elevated to the rank of King's counsel. He did not allude to himself: he had been too long in opposition to the Ministers to admit of their stooping to offer him anything—they would have done wrong in making such a submission as appointing him. If he had not already brought forward the question alluded to, it was from his unwillingness to raise the question of Protestant and Catholic Juries.
The Bill passed through the Committee, and to be further considered on Monday.

DEMISE OF THE CROWN.
Mr. Humesaid, that at that late hour he would refrain from remarks, and simply move for "Leave to bring in a Bill to render perpetual the Act 57 Geo. 3, c. 45, to continue every person in office at the demise of the Sovereign, until removed or discharged there from by the succeeding King or Queen of this Realm." The Bill he wished to bring in was similar to that passed in 1817; but that was a temporary measure, and his object was to make a permanent law.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeropposed the Motion, on the ground that such a regulation would be imposing a most invidious task on the Sovereign, as it would take from him the privilege, now appertaining to him, of not renewing the

531
commission or warrant of an officer on his accession to the Crown; instead of which he would be compelled, in the event of this passing into a law, actually to discharge him from the service. The principle of the Constitution always had been, to leave the Crown as unshackled as possible on the accession of any new Sovereign; so that there might be the grace, on his part, of having conferred a favour on each individual that held office under him.
Colonel Daviessupported the Motion. He thought it was very hard that individuals like Lieutenants of the Army or Navy should have to pay fees for the renewal of their commissions on the demise of the Sovereign. If the fees could be provided for, he had no doubt there would be no objection to the measure, for the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not oppose it as a mere matter of form, but on account of the fees.
Colonel Dundasthought, that a bill of that description ought not, at that time, to be introduced, and he would therefore move, as an Amendment, that the House do now adjourn.
Mr. Wynnsaid, that the proposed bill did not stand upon the same ground as the bill it was intended to renew. He did not say that the object proposed was not a good one, but he thought the bill should be made prospective only. At present certain persons had probably a claim for the fees which the bill would take away, and he was not ready to deprive them of their right.
Colonel Woodwas of opinion that the fees were paid, not to individuals but to the Treasury, and the Treasury could have no desire to retain them. He wished the fees paid by the officers of the Navy and Army to be remitted, but he thought the bill unnecessary.
Mr. Humesaid, that the right hon. Gentleman had mistaken his object, which was simply to prevent the renewal of fees on the demise of the Crown. If that right hon. Gentleman would suggest some modification of the bill that would meet his own views, he would readily adopt it. He was willing to follow any course that was agreeable to the House, and that would attain his object of avoiding the payment of fees.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he must object to the bill, though the hon. Member might probably attain his object by some other means.
Mr. Humehad no objection to withdraw his Motion, in order to introduce a bill agreeable to the views of the right hon. Gentleman.
Motion withdrawn.

Preamble
MINUTES. Further evidence was heard on the subject of the East Retford Disfranchising Bill.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of ELDON, from the Gentry, Clergy, and Freeholders of Denbighshire, against the Welsh Judicature Bill; also a Petition from the Inhabitants of certain premises in the neighbourhood of London Bridge, complaining of the loss of business which the making of the approaches to the New London Bridge, by means of an arch, would occasion to them, and praying for compensation. By the Archbishop of YORK, from Haworth, in Yorkshire, praying for the abolition of Negro Slavery:—By Earl FITZWILLIAM, two Petitions from Protestant Dissenters at Halifax, with the same prayer. By Lord ROLLE, from Collumpton, Devon, praying for the abolition of the Punishment of Death in cases of Forgery:—By the Duke of BEAUFORT, from Gloster, with the same prayer. For opening the Trade to India, by the same noble Duke, from the Inhabitants of Renfrewshire:—And by the Marquis of LANSDOWN, from Warrington. By Lord CALTHORPE, from the Physicians, Surgeons, and Students of the Westminster Medical Society, praying for some Legislative Measure to facilitate the Study of Anatomy. By the Duke of NORFOLK, from an Inhabitant of St. James's Parish, praying for the establishment of a Deaf and Dumb Institution. By Lord KING, from Aglis, in the County Cork, praying for a Reform in the Established Church. By Lord DURHAM, from the Ship-owners and Seamen of Sunderland, complaining of Distress, and praying for an alteration of the Navigation-laws; and from the Protestant Dissenters of South Shields, praying for a general registration of Births, &c. By Lord GODERICH, from the Hop-planters of Wadhurst, Sussex, praying for a Repeal of the Hop Duties.

DUTY ON BRITISH SPIRITS.
The Duke of Montrosepresented a Petition from the Noblemen, Gentlemen, and Freeholders of the county of Stirling, against any further increase of the Duty on Homemade Spirits, and praying that the relief which was intended for the colonial interests should be afforded in another way; namely, by a reduction of the duty on Sugar. The petitioners stated, and in that

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statement the noble Duke said he quite concurred, that the effect of any increase of the Duty on Home-made Spirits would be the re-establishment of that extensive system of smuggling in the Highlands which Government had formerly found it so difficult to put down. In former times, the smugglers used to proceed from the banks of Loch Lomond with their regular advanced guard and rear guard to Glasgow; and the noble Duke (Wellington), even if he should place sentries at every forty yards on the way, would find it impossible to prevent them from doing so again if the Duty on Spirits should be increased. He should be opposed to every such measure, as equally injurious to the landed interest and the morals of the people.

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.
The Earl of Malmesbury The Earl of Malmesbury moved, that Mr. Gepp, the Deputy Acting Treasurer of the county of Essex, should be called in and examined with regard to his non-compliance with the order of the House for the production of certain returns of great importance, embracing items to the amount of 1,500,000 l. The noble Earl stated, that the Returns in question had been ordered last Session; that since that time repeated applications had been made to Mr. Gepp for their production, to which he gave no answer, and that it was only within the last week, since he had given notice of his intention to enforce the orders of the House, that they had been produced.
[Mr. Gepp was accordingly called in, and having expressed his contrition for the delay which had occurred in the production of the returns, and having explained the circumstances which had occasioned it, he was suitably reprimanded by the Lord Chancellor, and ordered to be discharged.]

TITHE COMPOSITION BILL.
The Archbishop of Canterburyrose to present the Bill, of which he had given notice, to facilitate the Composition of Tithes. His Grace commenced by explaining the causes which had prevented him from bringing the measure at an earlier period of the Session under the consideration of their Lordships. So much nicety and deliberation had been required in framing many of the clauses of the Bill, that he had found it impossible to select an earlier opportunity of laying it before their Lordships; and, seeing the great importance of
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the subject, he was quite sure that it was not necessary for him to request their Lordships' attention to it on this occasion. A great many objections had been raised to the present mode by which the incumbents of livings were supported; namely, by the system of Tithes. It was objected in the first instance, that such a system tended to destroy that harmony which should always exist between the pastor and his parishioners; and in the second place, the farmer objected to the present mode of collecting Tithes, and he (the Archbishop of Canterbury) believed with some reason too, on the ground that it prevented him from employing his capital to as much advantage as he would be enabled to do if some settled arrangement were adopted, and he was no longer left subject to the uncertainty to which he was exposed under the existing system. Many remedies had been suggested, such as the substitution for Tithes of fixed money-payments, or of a corn-rent, to all of which he objected as tending to extinguish Tithe altogether. To a Composition for Tithes, for a reasonable term of years, resulting from a voluntary agreement entered into between both parties, and binding on them respectively for the period specified, there was no objection entertained by him (the Archbishop of Canterbury), nor, he believed, by any Member of the bench on which he sat; and he believed that the clergy in general throughout the country would be satisfied with a measure of that description. The object of this Bill was to enable parties to make such a composition, and it was in a great measure founded upon an Act which was now in force in Ireland, and which, he understood, had been productive of great advantage in that country,—with such modifications only as the different situations of the two countries required. The Bill he now proposed to introduce would allow parties to enter into a composition for terms not to exceed twenty-one years, and in some cases for terms not exceeding fourteen years. Where the longer term was specified, the composition was to be regulated by the price of corn, and the average price of every seven years was to be taken as the standard for regulating the composition while it existed. In other cases, where the amount of the composition was fixed at a certain sum of money, it was to last only for a terra of fourteen years. At the same time this Bill would afford means to the parties to renew the

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composition again, if they so thought fit, within three years of the expiration of the former composition. The composition was to be made by agreement between two commissioners,—one appointed on behalf of the clergy, and the other on behalf of the laymen. Still it was to be at the option of parties to offer a sum of money in lieu of Tithes without the intervention of commissioners; and during all the time the composition was in force, the right of the clergy to enter for Tithes was to be suspended. He had been anxious to make the Bill as simple as possible, and there was therefore one subject of great importance which he had shrunk from touching—he meant the rights of parties claiming exemptions from Tithes. On this account the machinery of the Bill was imperfect. He had also exempted from its operation those parishes in which the composition for Tithes was disputed, though he should be glad to see all compositions made on the principle of the Bill which he proposed to introduce. His object was, to benefit both the payers and receivers of Tithes, while he did justice to them both, and he should be obliged to noble Lords for any suggestion calculated to improve the operation of the measure. It was not his intention to enter at present into more particular details of the Bill, the first reading of which he concluded by proposing.
The Earl of Eldonsaid, that the measure was certainly susceptible of improvement, both with respect to the clergy and the laymen, but it was one which deserved the serious attention of the House; and he returned his thanks to the most Rev. Prelate for having introduced it.
Bill read a first time.