Sitting of 5 May 1830

MINUTES.
The Malt Duties Bill was read 3 second time.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of the Earl of MALMESBURY the number of Bushels of Malt on which Duly was charged in each year from the earliest period the Return can be made out, with the Hate of Duty:—The quantity of Beer, Porter, and other small Liquors that have paid Duty each year, from the earliest period the Return can be made out.
Petitions presented. By the Marquis of TWEEDALE, from the Freeholders of Roxburghshire, for an increased Duty on Rum. By the Marquis of ANGLESEY, against the pro-posed alterations in the Welsh Judicature, from the Inhabitants, and from the Grand Jury of the County of Anglesey; and from the Inhabitants of St. Michael's and St. John's, Dublin, for a Repeal of the Duty on Coals.

TAX ON LEATHER.
On the Order of the Day for the third reading of the Leather Tax Repeal Bill,
The Earl of Malmesburyexpressed a hope that the repeal of the Duty on Leather would prove beneficial to the great body of the people; but he understood that the harness-makers, and other workers in the material, were not of opinion that they would obtain it for a less price than before.
The Bill was read a third time and passed.

SIR T. WILSON'S ESTATE BILL.
On the Order of the Day for the second reading of this Bill,
The Earl of Mansfieldobjected to its further progress, as it would prove exceedingly injurious to the town of Hampstead, and to all those who held property in its vicinity. The father of Sir T. Wilson had, by will, limited the power to grant leases to the term of twenty-one years—the son now required leave to let the ground for building on leases of ninety-nine years; and the simple question was, whether Parliament would interpose to alter the avowed and express object of the testator. The grounds on which Sir T. Wilson might be supposed to apply for the interference of the Legislature to set aside the will of his father were, either the occurrence of something which the testator had not anticipated, the omission of something which he should have done for the improvement of the estate, or such an altered state of circumstances as rendered it imperatively necessary to make new arrangements. No such reasons were, however, given by Sir T. Wilson; and it was plain, from the fact of his father allowing him to let one estate for ninety-nine years, and restricting his power in another, that he did not intend that Hampstead Heath should be let in the manner desired by the present tenant for life. The House might think it unreasonable, but the power of the father to make the arrangement was unquestionable; and he contended from this, as well as from the injury it would inflict on the copyholders of Hampstead, that the House ought not to interfere for the purpose of altering the will, which limited Sir T. Wilson's powers to dispose of the property.
Lord Ardensupported the Bill. He believed that their Lordships had uniformly given their consent to bills of this description, and he saw no good reason for departing from the usual custom on that occasion. Within a few years several hundred bills of this description had received their Lordships' approbation.
Lord Tenterdenwas understood to say, that it was customary in law not to suppose in any holders of property for life a power to let it, unless that power was given to them by the testator. In this case, by such a power having actually been given to the present Sir T. Wilson over his Woolwich estates, while no such power was conferred over his estate at
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Hampstead Heath, it was to be presumed that he ought not to have it given to him. On this principle he thought the Bill ought not to pass.
Their Lordships, divided, when there appeared: For the second reading 7; Against it 23—Majority against the Bill 16.

PARISH REGISTERS (SCOTLAND).
Lord Napiersaid, that in calling the attention of their Lordships to a measure which involved not only the interests of private individuals, but the public concerns of the kingdom, he had to acknowledge that he found himself surrounded with difficulties which could only be removed by the superior wisdom and experience of their Lordships. Those difficulties arose out of certain differences of opinion which might possibly exist among their Lordships, but prevailed to a great extent among the ministers of the Church of Scotland, who would be more particularly intrusted with the administration of the law which he was about to propose for their Lordships' consideration. For his own part he should never have thought of interfering in any manner with this important business, had it not been from the personal observation of the most gross and scandalous mismanagement and neglect on the part of those intrasted with the care of the Registers of the parish in which he resided; but incase their Lordships should be of opinion that one solitary instance of neglect was not a sufficient ground for parliamentary interference, he would refer their Lordships to the Population Abstract, published in 1801, wherein it appeared, that out of 850 parishes in Scotland which made returns under the Population Act, only 99 were in possession of regular Registers, the rest having made only occasional entries therein, or keeping no Register whatever. This great abuse had long ago awakened the attention of the very learned and industrious Deputy Clerk Register in Edinburgh, who not only mentioned it in his reports to the Court of Session, but made such a communication to the general assembly of the Church of Scotland, as caused that reverend body to appoint a committee of their own members to prepare an overture concerning parochial Registers, wherein it is stated:—" That whereas great inconveniency and loss has been experienced in many parts of the country, either from no parochial

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Registers being kept" (and their Lordships' attention should be particularly directed to this admission of no parochial Register being kept), "or from the inaccuracy with which it is done, the assembly enjoins the several presbyteries of this Church to take the steps necessary to secure the keening of three separate Registers in every Parish. "This recommendation was dated the 27th May, 1816. He would then beg leave to quote to their Lordships an extract of a Letter from the Rev. Dr. Meiklejohn, convenor of the committee, to a noble relation of his, not at present in this country, the Earl of Haddington, who then took some interest in the business, and which was dated the 3rd March, 1823. The writer said:—"It has been long known that many individuals have experienced much inconvenience, and incurred heavy expense, from the state of our parochial Registers, and the very defective manner in which they are kept. At the conclusion of the late war, when the claimants were numerous to property left by relations who had fallen in the service of their country, this was felt to be a great public evil, and came more particularly under the observation of the ministers of the Church of Scotland, to whom their parishioners have constant recourse in such cases. These circumstances occasioned the state of the parochial Registers to be brought under the consideration of the assembly in 1816, and that assembly, by a very particular recommendation to the presbyteries, did what was in their power to remedy the evil. They were, at the same time, perfectly convinced that nothing but a legislative enactment would prove effectual, and therefore appointed a committee, which has been renewed by every assembly since that time, to make application to those who might be instrumental in providing such enactment." From 1816, however, to the present time, matters had remained in their original position for want of this legislative enactment. Last year, indeed, he had introduced a bill to remedy the defect; but on being transmitted to the clergy of Scotland for their consideration, it was thought to contain enactments imposing duties on them which they considered the Parliament had no power to impose, they being derogatory to the rights and independence of the Church of Scotland. With the view of obviating this difficulty he had made it his business to consult
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those from whose experience he might expect the most valuable assistance and advice; and upon the principles recommended by the learned and celebrated Dr. Cleland, of Glasgow, the present Bill was proposed for their Lordships consideration, He believed that in no part of the world was there to be found a gentleman more learned in statistical science than Dr. Cleland; neither was there any parish of Great Britain in which the Registers were kept in a, more regular and complete manner than in the city of Glasgow. The ministers of the different parishes there seconded with great energy and effect, all the different propositions of the learned Doctor; and by his advice, and that of the session clerks, he submitted to their Lordships a bill, founded on the principles which had enabled the Kirk session of Glasgow to effect so great a purpose, in the absence of all legislative enactment. A copy of the Bill had been transmitted to Dr. Cleland, and returned with some amendments, which he had proposed after due consideration, assisted by several of the ministers, and the session clerks of the city of Glasgow; and if it were their Lordships' pleasure that the Bill shall be read a second time, it would afford him great pleasure to introduce those amendments in the committee. He had also transmitted a copy to the committee of the general assembly, and those reverend gentlemen, by a resolution of the 22nd of April last, declare it to be their opinion; "that unless registration is rendered imperative, and enforced by proper penalties; nothing effectual can be done." He regretted that there should be found any difference of opinion between reverend and learned gentlemen in Edinburgh and Glasgow; and although it was to himself personally, a matter of the most perfect indifference, whether or not this Act was to be enforced by pains and penalties, yet it was his decided opinion, that it would be utterly hopeless and impossible, either to enforce the provisions of the Act through such means, or even to recover the penalties when due. Experience had already proved the utter impossibility of carrying such a measure into effect; for the illustration of which he would refer to the failure of the Act 23rd. Geo. 3rd, cap. 67, for levying stamp duties on parochial registrations. Besides, in all landward parishes, the duty of the session-clerk, whose business it would be to re-

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cover the penalties, devolved on the parish schoolmaster; a person, whose object it was to reside in peace and harmony with his neighbours, who was to have the charge and education of their children, and who, by entering into prosecutions and litigations, would be living in hot water with all the parish; losing his most valuable time, neglecting his more special avocations, and deprived of all his authority and usefulness as a schoolmaster. From the example of the city of Glasgow, he was encouraged to look to the good sense of the people, their understanding the advantages of registration, and the active and diligent co-operation of the clergy, in advising and persuading them to avail themselves of the benefits to be eventually derived by many of them or their successors from a diligent attention to the forms prescribed by this Bill to carry it into effect. Besides, he was encouraged by the example of the parochial registers in England, a set of records filled up and preserved with the greatest regularity and care; and the bill by which these matters were regulated at present, namely, 52 Geo, 3rd, cap. 146 contained not one single fine or penalty, saving that of transportation for forging the names or destroying the records. He thought, however, that no perfect system of registration could be effected, unless the Government would appoint and pay clerks in the different parishes for that special purpose alone; and he was afraid that the First Lord of the Treasury would not feel himself in a condition at present to appoint and uphold much such nominations. All that he wished was, that with such means as were already possessed, Scotland should be put on an equal footing with England; and as he knew that there were many clergymen in the former country deeply interested in the welfare of the people committed to their charge, he placed his reliance on them, and he had every hope that the general assembly would in due time enact such regulations for the guidance of the clergy as would remove the evils of which there was so much reason to complain: there had been many Statutes or episcopal mandates issued in England for the regulation of these matters; but in Scotland there was not one. He was aware that the present was only an imperfect measure; but it was the beginning of a system, where no system yet existed; it would lay down a uniform and general plan for all
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the parishes; and he looked, he repeated, to the good sense of the people, and the hearty co-operation of the clergy, to give it due effect. If it were there lordships pleasure to allow the Bill to go to the committee, and should it pass that stage in an amended form, he would make it his business to refer it back in that shape to the Committee of the General Assembly, and wait the result of the reverend gentleman's deliberations thereon.
Viscount Melvilleadmitted the necessity of introducing conformity into the mode of keeping Registers in Scotland, and therefore cordially concurred in the principles of his noble friends Bill. There might, perhaps, be some objection to the machinery, but he should reserve his objections to the next stage of the measure.
The Earl of Roseberyalso stated, that there was a total want of uniformity in the mode of keeping parish Registers in Scotland; he therefore gave his cordial concurrence to the principle of his noble friend's bill. He hoped that the amendments which were to be introduced when the Bill went into a committee would make it satisfactory to all parties.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday.