Sitting of 26 February 1830

MINUTES.
The Select Vestry Amendment Bill of the united parishes of St. Giles and St. George's Bloomsbury, was read a first time.—The following Members were sworn in to form a Committee to inquire into the Cork Election

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Petition:—Sir William Scott, Mr. William Russell, Mr. John Marshall, Mr. James Loch, Sir Wm. Pringle, Right Hon. Sir G. Murray, Mr. James Bradshaw, Sir John H. North, Mr. Thomas Alcock, Sir Thomas Baring, Mr. James Macleod.

EDUCATION IN IRELAND—LAND REVENUES.
Lord F. L. Gowerpresented a Petition from Bishops professing the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland, on the subject of Education in that country.
Mr. Ricesaid, that if the usual items for Education appeared in the Irish Estimates this year he should bring the matter before the House, with a view to an inquiry into the subject.
Mr. D. W. Harveyrose to renew the notice of his Motion, which was to have been made yesterday, respecting the Land Revenues of the Crown, for the 30th of March. He took this opportunity of observing, that the Revenues of the Crown Lands, in the Duchy of Lancaster, were not brought into any of the Public Accounts, and as it would greatly forward the object he had in view, he begged to ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he had any objection to furnish him with information on this subject.
Mr. Arbuthnotsaid (as we understood him), that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster had nothing to do with the Crown Lands.

ARTICLED CLERKS.
Mr. J. Woodpresented a Petition from a number of Articled Clerks in the profession of the Law, complaining that although they had paid the heavy stamp duty, and served five years in the profession, yet, having omitted to enroll their articles, they were debarred being admitted as attorneys, and became liable to serve five years over again, or pay an additional stamp duty.
The Solicitor-Generalsupported the petition, and observed that, as the Revenue would not be affected, and it was a case of great hardship, he hoped the prayer of the petition would be acceded to.
The petition was read. It prayed that the petitioners might be indemnified against the consequences of their omissions.

DISTRESSED WEAVERS.
Mr. J. Woodpresented a Petition from the Cotton-Weavers, &c. of Preston, complaining of the very depressed state of their trade. The Petition, the hon. Member stated, was signed by 7,000 weavers, and he felt great pain in presenting it, because,
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although he was fully aware of the great distress prevailing amongst this industrious and hard-working class of persons, he differed from them in opinion as to the best mode of obtaining relief. The petition complained that of late such was the falling-off in this branch of manufactures, that they had to work from twelve to fourteen hours a day to obtain the sum of "ten-pence," and in most instances there was a family consisting of from four to six persons to subsist upon this miserable pittance. The petitioners attributed this serious depression in their trade to the great and increasing exportation of Cotton Twist. They stated that the exports of this article in 1803 only amounted to five millions of pounds, whilst in 1828 they amounted to no less than sixty millions of pounds. The remedy which they pointed out was this:—That the duty on the raw material should be entirely taken off, and that a duty of eight per cent should be imposed on the exportation of Cotton Twist. He entirely dissented from the prayer of the petition, and had expressed such dissent, but at the same time the petitioners had intrusted him to present it, and he considered it as a proof of their confidence in the honesty of his intentions. He felt assured if the alteration in the duties were to take place as prayed for by the petitioners, that it would be attended with the fatal result of ruining the Cotton Twist manufacturers, and would fail to give permanent relief to the petitioners. He considered that even a duty of two per cent on Twist would drive the manufacture of that article to other countries. The introduction of machinery was also believed by them to be one of the chief causes of their distress; but in this he also differed in opinion from them, and felt confident, that if the introduction of machinery were prohibited, and the manufacture confined to hand labour, in a very few years the whole trade would be removed from this country, and carried on where machinery was allowed to be used. He felt it a duty to present this petition, however painful it was to him to differ in opinion from so numerous a body of his constituents, with whose habits and condition he was perfectly acquainted; and a more orderly, a more industrious class of persons, he could safely say, never addressed that House. In times of the greatest distress they had borne their sufferings with patience, and never were

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excited to those acts of outrage which led to the destruction of machinery, and marked other places. Having stated to the House the remedy pointed out by the petitioners, he would now state what he thought would be the best means of giving them relief. Independently of the injury done to these individuals by the improvement in machinery, he considered that the greatest and most injurious consequence arose from the present system of Corn-laws. It was well known that the weavers in this country could supply a much larger quantity of goods than the consumption demanded, and consequently they were driven to foreign markets; but if we expected foreigners to purchase our manufactured goods, they, in return, expected we should take their corn, the duty upon which amounted to a prohibition. He really did consider that until some alteration took place in our Corn-laws it was useless to expect any material increase of demand abroad for our manufactures. One part of the petition he did concur in, which was that a reduction of the duty on Cotton Wool would be attended with a beneficial result.
Mr. Humewished to say one word on this petition. So far from believing that the plan recommended by the petitioners would afford relief, he was quite satisfied that what they asked would only add to their difficulties. A great number of persons were maintained by the manufacture of Cotton Twist for exportation, and if a duty were laid on that article on its being exported, all those individuals would be thrown out of employment. He was not however surprised that those petitioners complained and recommended as a remedy that which would only do mischief. When he heard men in the city and elsewhere,—men holding high rank and station, and who ought to be better informed, inveighing against the exportation of Cotton Twist as a dreadful evil to this country,—when such men made complaints of that nature, the House need not be surprised at the mistake into which the weavers had fallen. In one point, however, he agreed with the petitioners. He thought that the raw material ought to be introduced into this country at as cheap a rate as possible. In that principle he was satisfied, they were right; though the price of cotton was not now high, yet, if it were lower, it would increase the quantity of employment.
The Petition was laid on the Table,

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
Mr. Chaplinpresented a Petition from certain inhabitants of the county of Lincoln, complaining of Distress and Taxation. The Petition was signed by 7,000 persons. He trusted that Ministers would take the condition of the labouring classes into consideration, and shift the load of taxation from their shoulders upon those of a portion of the community better able to bear it. He was glad to hear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to do something with respect to the sale of beer; and trusted that the Beer-tax, which fell so heavily upon the lower orders, would be modified.
Colonel Sibthorpconfirmed the statements of distress contained in the petition; it was general, not partial. A statement had gone abroad, that the price of timber was but little, if at all, reduced; he begged distinctly to contradict that statement, and to add, that timber had fallen half its former price.

MALT AND BEER DUTIES.
Sir R. Hillpresented a Petition from certain inhabitants of the county of Salop, complaining of the heavy duties on Malt and Beer.
Mr. Slaneysaid, the petition was signed by 1,200 persons. He had proved last year that the duties imposed on Malt liquor, in various shapes, amounted to 200 per cent. He had been informed, and was glad to hear, that Government intended to do something to facilitate the retail supply of Beer to the working classes. He wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it were his intention to move for a Committee to inquire into the licensing system of public-houses? Having himself given notice of a motion relative to the burthens and restrictions on the manufacture and supply of Malt liquor, which comprised that among other objects, he should be glad that the matter should fall into better hands. If it turned out that he had been correctly informed as to the right hon. Gentleman's intention, giving Government full credit for a sincere wish to relieve the labouring classes, he should postpone his notice of motion, hoping, as he did, that Ministers would do their utmost to relieve the public burthens; and that though a revision of the licensing system might be the beginning, it would not prove the end of remedial measures.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid,

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that on Tuesday he should move for a Select Committee to inquire into the laws and regulations affecting the sale of Beer, with a view of ascertaining how far a free trade could be allowed in that article.
Colonel Davieshoped that some county Member would take up the motion which the hon. Member's new-found confidence in Ministers had induced him to defer.
Mr. Slaneywas not indifferent to the subject, but wished to give Government time to act for itself.

LEATHER DUTIES.
Mr. O'Connellmoved for a return of the produce of the Excise Duty on Leather, from the 1st of January, 1829, to the 1st of January, 1830—of the number and amount of penalties levied, and of the costs incurred thereby—of the expenses of collecting the duties on Leather—and of the number and nature of the oaths taken by manufacturers of Leather.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that with respect to the Oaths, they were imposed by Acts of Parliament, and could be easily ascertained, without the cost and trouble which must attend a return.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that as he meant to bring the subject before the House, and as the Oaths were so numerous, he was not inclined to trust to any return of his own, because he would have no dispute upon facts. It would be very troublesome for gentlemen to look through all the Acts, and more troublesome to ascertain how many of those Acts had been repealed.
Mr. O'Connellmoved for similar returns respecting the Excise Duties on Paper.

DUBLIN JURORS.
Mr. O'Connellmoved for a return of the number of Inquests and Commissions which had been summoned under the Act for the Improvement of the city of Dublin for the last ten years; also, for a return of the number and names of the persons who had sat as Jurors on such Inquests, and of the amount of the sums which had been paid to them.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he had no objection to these Returns being granted, except on the score of the expense of printing the names of these persons,—an expense which he thought ought not to be incurred, unless the hon. Member first made out a case of probable benefit.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that in the first
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place he had not moved that the names should be printed, nor would he, without assigning a sufficient reason. In the next place, the expense would not be very great, for he apprehended that the names would not be found to be very multitudinous. He was informed that the same twelve persons had sat upon all these inquests; that the twelve guineas for each inquest had always gone to the same twelve individuals. The House, he supposed, would think it right that Jurors should give their verdict uninfluenced by the apprehension that if they gave a verdict disagreeable to the Commissioners, they would not be summoned again.

TRUCK SYSTEM—REVENUE, &c.
Mr. Humesaid, that the hon. Member for Staffordshire (Mr. Littleton) had given notice, that on Wednesday, the 17th of March, he should move for leave to bring in a Bill to render more effectual the laws for the Payment of Wages in Money. He wished then to give notice, that he should move, as an Amendment to that Motion, for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal all laws which inflicted penalties on Masters for paying wages in goods. He hoped he should be able to put an end to the delusion that prevailed on that subject. He would also then move for a Return of the number and names of each post town in which an extra charge, beyond the rate of postage fixed by Act of Parliament for the delivery of letters, had been made; together with a statement of the authority on which such extra charge had been made;—also, for a return of the number and names of places which had been relieved from such extra charge during the last three years—also, for a return of the gross amount of Excise Duties collected in Great Britain in the year ending the 5th of January, 1830; distinguishing the amount paid for collection, and the amount actually paid into the Exchequer—also, for a similar return respecting the Duties of Customs, and the Land and Assessed Taxes. The hon. Member said, he would take this opportunity of stating, that if the Ministers did not propose any further reductions, he should, as soon as the Estimates were over, submit a motion on the subject of the Collection of the Revenue. After the able manner in which an hon. friend of his (Sir H. Parnell) had exposed, in his late publication, the abuses of the mode of collection, and the saving that

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might be made under that head, he thought no rational man could doubt that the subject was deserving of serious attention.

SUPPLY OF WATER TO THE METROPOLIS.
Mr. C. Pallmercalled the attention of the House to a Petition which he considered to be of considerable importance to the health and comfort of the inhabitants of this great metropolis. It came from certain individuals living on the south side of the river Thames, in the county of Surrey. The petition stated that they applied on behalf of the inhabitants of nearly 70,000 houses, and that if time had permitted, there would have been 100,000 signatures to the petition. The petitioners stated, that they were many of them master bakers by trade, and that they were supplied by no other water than that pumped out of the River Thames, which was of the most impure and inferior quality, and particularly ill-adapted for the purpose of making wholesome and palatable bread,—that the water was disgusting to the eye, nauseous to the taste, and injurious to the health. They had entertained hopes from what passed in that House in the year 1827, that something would have been done to remedy the evil complained of; and they prayed that relief might be speedily afforded to them. He trusted that the hon. Baronet, the Member for Westminster (who had taken this important public interest under his able protection) would not neglect it, and that the Secretary of State for the Home Department would consider the subject as eminently entitled to his earliest and most serious attention.

PRIVILEGE—PARLIAMENTARY AGENCY.
Sir E. Knatchbullsaid, he rose to present a Petition which had very lately been put into his hands, and which related to a motion about to be brought forward that evening. As it was respectfully worded, he bad not refused to present it. The petitioner was a Mr. Sydney, who took notice of a motion which was to be brought forward by the hon. Member for Staffordshire (Mr. Littleton), in which motion the petitioner thought that his interests were involved, and he prayed to be heard at the bar respecting the said motion. He begged to move that the petition be brought up.
Mr. C. W. Wynnbegged to ask of the Speaker if it were consistent with the
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rules of the House that such a petition should be brought up. The petition, as he understood, alluded to a motion which it was intended to bring forward, and the object of which was to regulate the conduct of the Members of that House, and of no one else.
The Speakersaid, that there was certainly no precedent, that he knew of, in favour of receiving such a petition. He thought it well worthy the consideration of the House, whether they would allow a motion respecting the conduct of their own Members to be thus noticed.
Mr. Humebelieved that a petition had, the other evening, been presented against the present petitioner, and he begged to know of the Speaker, if it were contrary to usage, in such a case, to hear a man at the Bar in defence of himself.
The Speakersaid, that the hon. Member was putting to him an hypothetical question, which did not bear in the most remote degree upon the present case. The petition to which the hon. Member alluded, and which had been presented by the hon. Member for Staffordshire, was not against the present petitioner. It was the petition of a person who thought it derogatory to the dignity of the House that one of its Members should be engaged in partnership with others, out of the House, who were the paid agents for conducting Parliamentary business; and the petition prayed that such a practice might be put an end to. That petition, therefore, could not be said to be a petition against the present petitioner.
Mr. Humesaid, he might have been misinformed, but he understood that the present petitioner was mentioned in that petition; and if so, he thought it hard to refuse the petitioner a hearing.
Sir E. Knatchbullsaid, that if it were the wish of the House, he should certainly withdraw the petition. [Cries of "Withdraw."]
The Petition was then withdrawn.
Mr. Littletonsaid, that he rose pursuant to the notice he had given, to move a resolution, declaring it to be contrary to the law and usage of Parliament for any Member to engage, either by himself or partner, in the management of private bills for pecuniary reward. He hoped he should receive credit for sincerity when he said, that it was with real pain and regret that, having presented a petition, he felt himself obliged to follow it up by a

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Motion which interfered with the views of any hon. Member of that House. He trusted that the hon. Member for Colchester, would do him the justice of believing he was not actuated by any personal motives. Before stating the Resolution he intended to submit, he would, in the first place, beg to remind the House of the substance of the petition on which he had founded his Motion. The petition came from Mr. T. Eyre Lee, and stated, "That having in the month of November last given notice in the newspapers of his intention to apply for a certain bill in the next Session, he received a letter, dated Great George-street, and signed William Robert Sydney, informing him that the writer had entered into partnership with Mr. Daniel Whittle Harvey, as Parliamentary Agents; and that his practice and experience for several years gave him facilities in conducting Parliamentary business which would be found very advantageous to his clients independently of the alliance which he had formed with Mr. Harvey The letter was franked by Mr. Harvey, and came under what appeared to be the common seal of the firm." When he received the petition from Mr. Lee, it certainly did appear to him an extraordinary thing that a Member of that House should undertake, for fee or reward, to employ himself in the management of private bills; and he felt still more surprised when he heard the hon. Member for Colchester declare that he would take the sense of the House as to the propriety of such conduct. He would next advert to the suspicion expressed by the hon. Member for Colchester, that this petition had emanated from the Parliamentary Agents. He could not suppose that the hon. Member had given utterance to this suspicion without having some grounds for it; but on inquiry he found that there were no grounds for making this charge. Mr. Eyre Lee denied all connexion with these Parliamentary Agents; and his petition had solely proceeded from his aversion to find himself opposed in his professional business by a person possessing the talents and advantages of the hon. Member for Colchester. He would next come to the Resolution he intended to move, first requesting the Clerk of the House to read from the Journal of the House the Resolution dated 2nd of May, 1696. The Clerk read the following-Resolution:—"That the offer of any
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money, or any other advantage to any Member of Parliament, as a fee or reward for him to promote the furtherance of any matter depending or to be transacted in Parliament, is a high crime and misdemeanor, and tends to the subversion of the English Constitution."
Mr. Littleton, in continuation said, that the Resolution which he should propose would only follow up the declaration. It was this:—"Resolved, That it is contrary to law, and to the usages of Parliament, for any Member either by himself or partner, to engage in the management of any private bill for any fee or reward." He was at a loss to conceive any objection there could be to passing this Resolution; but he could easily conceive that there were many grounds sufficient to call for its adoption. He would direct the attention of the House to the arguments which, on a former night, had been used by the hon. Member for Colchester upon this subject, and to the answers which he should give to them. In the first place that hon. Member justified himself on the fact, that other solicitors, Members of that House, had adopted the same course of proceeding, and that they had been allowed to engage in professional practice upon bills under discussion before the House. He presumed that the hon. Member believed he had stated only circumstances that were well founded; but, after a very exact inquiry into the matter, he had not been able to discover a single instance in which a solicitor sitting in that House engaged in professional practice upon private bills. The hon. Member for Colchester had to establish two points:—First, that there were instances in which solicitors, who were Members of that House, forgetting themselves and their duty to the House, had engaged in such practice; and next, that they had done so with the cognizance of that House. Unless he could succeed in establishing these two points, his facts and his arguments were worth nothing, and on these points he might fairly be challenged to prove that any one had done so without having been visited by punishment by that House. It was not strictly his duty to offer any comment upon the conduct of his departed and lamented friend, Sir James Graham; but he felt called upon by his respect for that gentleman to do so, and he would assert his utter disbelief that that gentleman had ever practised in the way sup-

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posed, or that Mr. Smith, the solicitor to the East-India Company had, while a Member of that House, engaged in any such professional practice. He did not deem it absolutely necessary to call the attention of the House to the arguments drawn from the practice of the Attorney and Solicitor General; but he could not pass by the subject without declaring, that unless good proof of the fact were adduced, he never would believe that they took part in any proceedings, but in the same way as other Members, or that they ever received a fee for any clauses introduced into any bill in that House. These hon. and learned Gentlemen were, however, present, and could answer for themselves. The hon. Member for Colchester had likewise alluded to the case of every individual Member who might be liable to find his pecuniary interests or those of his constituents affected by bills passing through that House, but who would not be prevented on that account from voting against a bill. The latter of these cases often happened, and he would assert that there was no county Member of any standing whose constituents were not often affected by bills in that House, and who were not, under such circumstances, always called on to support or oppose them. If they were prevented from doing this, their constituents would be robbed of the services of those in whom they had thought fit to place their confidence, and who were there to protect and assert their interests whenever they happened to be made the subject of discussion. The usages of the House were perfectly clear and satisfactory in this respect, for, though they admitted a Member to speak and vote on the subjects affecting the interests of his constituents, whom he was there to represent, yet, whenever there was reason to believe that he had made his power of voting subservient to the promotion of his own interests, the House was not backward in disallowing the vote, and thus destroying the means of any abuse of his rights and privileges. For the confirmation of this, he appealed to the knowledge of all the Members. In 1825 and in 1826, when bills relating to Joint Stock Companies and other speculations were before the House, this was constantly done; and a great variety of votes were disallowed, and very properly disallowed, on that account. In consequence of frequent occurrences of this kind, the House
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(and upon his motion) appointed a select committee, who, in their report, expressed their disgust at the practice; and what was the result? Why that the House, with a view of providing a remedy for such a practice, declared there should be an appeal from any committee to the House itself, grounded upon the objection, that a Member interested in the result had given his vote upon it. This resolution continued to be a part of the Sessional Orders. If, after this, there were any case in which such a vote was given, and no appeal was made, the party had no right to complain; since, upon the report made by that committee, an effectual remedy had been provided. He would say nothing further upon that part of the subject, but reserve himself for the reply to which he should be entitled.—The hon. Member for Aberdeen, on a former occasion, called the attention of the House to the subject by proposing a resolution, that a party who had an interest of any description in any bill should take no part in it during its passage through the House. That resolution was rejected in 1824, upon the opposition of Mr. Canning, and afterwards upon an opposition made by him (Mr. Littleton), upon this ground, that a general rule was unnecessary and improper, as the House, by the resolution recommended by the Committee, had reserved to itself the right of examining into every individual case that might be brought before it. Having said thus much upon the general question, he would proceed to the Motion more immediately under discussion—namely, as to the right of any Member to act, either by himself, or his partner, in the matter of a petition for a private bill. It had been said that such had before been the usage of Parliament. He denied the usage; first, because there was no proof of its existence, either by evidence of a Member having acted in the manner described, or of any punishment having been inflicted on him for so doing. But he would go further. He had a right to argue from analogy; and on that ground he should be able to show that Solicitors, who were Members of that House, could not possibly be allowed to forward bills through its Committees, since gentlemen of the long robe, who were Members of the House were not allowed the privilege of appearing for parties, either in Committees or at the Bar. There was no difference in the prin-

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ciple and spirit of the Resolution between the two classes of professional men, both of whom stood in that respect in precisely the same situation. But the House went still further, for it prevented barristers having a seat in Parliament from practising in either House upon matters relating to private bills. The Resolutions to that effect were passed in 1666 and 1669. The former was made a Standing Order, and was directed to prevent barristers, who were Members of that House, from practising at any time in the other House. As that order was rather too general, the gentlemen of the long robe obtained a modification of it within three years afterwards, and the order then adopted was, that no gentleman of the long robe, a Member of that House, should, during the Session of Parliament, practise at the Bar of either House without leave asked and granted by that. House. The House saw no impropriety in permitting such of its Members as were barristers to plead before the House of Lords sitting as a Court of Appeal, but bills were entirely a different question, as the same subjects on which they pleaded before the House of Lords as advocates might afterwards come before that House, when they would have to decide on them as legislators. The House therefore refused to sanction their pleading in such matters, in order to keep their minds pure and unbiassed on questions in which they might have finally to exercise their legislative judgment. This principle had been acknowledged upon a recent and very celebrated occasion. At the time of the late Queen's trial, it was most important that her Majesty should receive the assistance of the hon. and learned Gentleman, the then Member for Winchelsea, and of another hon. and learned Member, then one of the Members for Nottingham. An application was, in consequence, made to that House by the first of these Gentlemen, bearing in his mind the two Standing Orders already referred to, for its express permission to be heard at the Bar of the other House against the Bill of Pains and Penalties then in progress through it. So jealous were the Members of that House of conceding such a privilege, that they took time to consider of the application, and refused to give for some days the required permission. Some days afterwards, either on the motion of the hon. and learned Gentleman, or on that of Lord Castlereagh,
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the application was granted, under condition, "provided always that this permission shall not be drawn into a precedent." In that permission Dr. Lushington was afterwards included. He thought he need not urge more arguments in support of this Resolution. He should merely state the course he meant to pursue. When he presented the petition he thought that the matter ought, to be referred to a Committee of Privileges, but on consideration of the duties of such a Committee, and in consequence of communications with other Members of the House, he determined upon pursuing a different course. There was nothing that required the labours of a committee—nothing to inquire into. The question was one of first principles, in which that House, and that alone, ought to be the judge. It was a mere question of moral propriety. He thought he had said enough to show that it was against the tenor and spirit, if not against the letter, of the Resolutions of that House, for its Members to interfere with the management of private bills in their passage through that or the other House of Parliament. As it was so entirely a question of moral propriety, he should ask for no committee, but should submit it to the House at large; and he called on every Member to assert the dignity of their practice, and agree with him in carrying the Resolution he proposed for the furtherance of that object. The hon. Member concluded by proposing the Resolution he had already stated.
Colonel Dalrymplesaid, he had made the fullest inquiry into the subject, and could declare that Sir James Graham had retired from Parliamentary business before he became a Member of that House, and never engaged in any business from which he could derive profit while he continued a Member.
Mr. D. W. Harveysaid, if, Sir, at the time of my engaging in the partnership which is now the subject of discussion, I had had the slightest impression that what I was doing was contrary either to law, or to the usages of Parliament—had I even thought that it would have occupied so much of the valuable, the very valuable time of this House, as I now find it has done, I should not have engaged in it; that thought alone would have deterred me from forming such a connection, and I do most sincerely regret the time that has been consumed in hearing a discussion on

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such a trifling subject. The hon. Member, I must say, has placed an ungenerous construction on the arguments I have adverted to. I imputed no blame to the hon. Members whom I supposed to have engaged in the same practice as myself. When I mentioned their names, I did so from the belief which is generally entertained among the members of the legal profession, that the late Sir James Graham was extensively and advantageously employed in passing bills through Parliament. After the positive statement of the hon. Member who is connected with the house of which Sir James Graham was at the head, I am, of course, ready to acknowledge my error in the opinion I entertained. When, too, I stated that bills were submitted to the law officers of the Crown, Members of this House, I did not, and do not believe, that the time, the important time, of these distinguished and learned individuals was gratuitously devoted and given to the public. I did not allude to the case of the Queen's Counsel, though it was suggested to me, and though I was not prepared at that time to believe that the law officers of the Crown and the Queen's Counsel had given their services for nothing, which I was little inclined to believe, from knowing the enormous sum voted by this House to defray the expenses of that proceeding. But if that money was given for the expenses of witnesses, and for them alone, and none of it was allotted to the Counsel, then must I acknowledge that that is more than I was prepared to believe. The hon. Member has paid a great compliment to the members of that branch of the profession to which he belonged at the expense of the other, when he said no precedent was to be found of solicitors having contravened what he stated to be the Standing Orders of the House, while at the same time he admitted there had been a period when Attorneys and Solicitors General had been so greedy of fees that a positive rule had been made to restrain them from indulging in such practices. [No, no.] This is the true result of the hon. Member's statement as to this House; and in the House of Lords there was a Resolution once passed of a still stronger nature. I come now to the Question itself. Is the statement of the hon. Member entitled to support from the Members of this House, either from the evidence afforded by the records of our Journals, of our
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officers, or of you, Sir, who are so profoundly acquainted with the rules and practice of this House? I do not speak of any strained or liberal construction of those Orders—if there be any clear and intelligible declaration in them which is opposed to what I have done, I shall bow obediently to it, whatever may be the personal effect upon myself. I said on the former occasion what I repeat now—that the Committees of this House cannot be too pure in their motives or actions; but I would ask if it be not a hypocritical regard for purity to declare that a solicitor receiving a fee for his services in promoting a private bill, is liable to have his mind biassed, while Gentlemen are not even suspected whose whole property has been involved in bills in which they have interfered. If the House support the Resolution now proposed, no man can vote on a bill when he has a direct interest in the result. I should be ready to agree to the proposition, and no one would more cordially support the Resolution, or embrace it in practice, than myself, did it go the length of declaring that no Member should vote in any case in which he had a direct interest: but the hon. Member has gone further, and has said "indirect" as well as "direct"—at least he has said so in effect. I would agree even to this, if I thought it could be practically effected, but I scarcely think it possible for any Committee of gentlemen to be formed who are not directly or indirectly influenced in the result of any measure that has to pass through this House. I am sometimes solicited by persons coining from Glasgow or Dundee to support or oppose a bill in its progress through the House, or to attend the Committee upon it. I should have thought that I could have had no direct or indirect interest in such a bill; but such is the extraordinary activity of these agents, that they discover what I never could have imagined; that in some way or other the interests of my own constituents are concerned in the bill, and some of these are always found to urge me to attend the discussions on the bill. Attending or not to their wishes may influence my return for Colchester, and thus I may have an interest in measures which nobody would suspect. I question, Sir, whether there are six Members in this House who are not subject to this sort of indirect influence. To the Resolution now proposed by the hon.

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Member I shall move an Amendment—a substantive Amendment; for as to the common form of moving the previous Question, it requires all the ingenuity of the practised Members to understand what it means. I shall, therefore, propose a Resolution, that no Member who has a direct interest in any bill shall vote in the Committee upon it. I do not say that they shall not sit in the Committee, for it is frequently necessary that they should do so, in order to give that information on the subject which they, best of all others, perhaps, are able to afford. I will only say of myself, that I never sat and voted in any canal or road-bill committee in which I had half a farthing's interest. I think I have been treated harshly, because I have been treated as if this petition had arisen out of my misconduct. I am willing, however, if others will follow me in that respect, to set an example of absolute disinterestedness; and as I never have been, so I am ready to say that I never will be a member of any committee on a bill in which I am directly or indirectly interested. I must say, however, that the rewards of the kind alluded to by the Resolution of the hon. Member are so far from being a bribe, that they are but payments for services, and the person receiving the services is, in such a case, just as much bribed as the person receiving the money. But if you are resolved on reducing the conduct of the Members of the House to such a sublimated degree of purity that they shall not be subject to the influence even of 13 s. 4d., or 1l. 1s., or 6s. 8d. as an hon. Member reminds me (and these sums, by-the-bye, subject to taxation by your officers); I say, if the House is determined that its Members shall be so pure, that the purity of their minds shall not be borne down by the influence of such a sum, I will even support a motion to that extreme. But Gentlemen have an interest in almost all the votes which they give in Parliament. I take it for granted, that the hon. Gentleman, to be consistent, will oppose any East-India Directors from sitting on the Committee on India Affairs. Are not these hon. Gentlemen interested in that question? If that Committee should report that it was expedient to abolish the Company's monopoly, it would be the abolition of enormous patronage. I understand, I may be misinformed, but I do understand, that the advantage of the
1022
East-India Directors is, beyond that of all other persons, bound up in the existence of the Company. If so, I ask, Sir, whether any Director can fairly tell me that should he feel the Company's monopoly, the source of his power and patronage, crumbling beneath his feet, that he would not feel a paramount degree of interest in endeavouring to preserve it from ruin. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has given notice of a motion for a Committee on the Licensing System. Of course, he will not have any great brewers on that Committee. He will not ask men to vote against their interest, or put their delicate sense of honour in jeopardy. The other night there was a motion for the Reduction of the Salaries of the Great Officers of State, when one of them rose up and implored our sympathy, because having only 3,500 l. a-year, he thought' himself in a bad state, because legs of mutton were now 7d. instead of 5d. per pound; while another right hon. Gentleman, connected with the Navy, thought 5,000 l. a-year not enough to pay his weekly bills with, and would no doubt on a division have given a conscientious vote for the preservation of his salary. Much is now said against attorneys and solicitors, after they have been robbed of all the places they formerly occupied under the Government, and the duties of which they discharged both well and cheaply, but from which they were turned out because barristers were found more efficient in this House. Are these, or any of these, instances of that delicate purity in Members sufficient to justify the present Motion? I must also remind you, Sir, that I am not the only person concerned in this question, and that you are, by this Resolution, using the iron hand of your power in a fearful manner. You are about to take upon yourselves to dissolve engagements of a binding nature on the parties themselves. My partner has applied to be heard at your bar, and his prayer has been refused, I do not say improperly refused, consistently with the forms of the House, but as he is concerned your Resolution ought to be well weighed. I admit, however, that if it is clear that the laws and usages of Parliament are, that not only no Member of this House, but no solicitor out of it connected with any Member, is allowed to engage in the management of private bills—I say if this be the case, I admit that he has come into the lion's mouth, and he

1023
must get out of it with as little mutilation as possible. The right hon. Gentleman who has given notice of a Committee of Inquiry into the fees of the Courts of Law, has often talked of vested rights. I say, let him consider mine. But, Sir, if all others are to be in the same manner given up, I have such a contempt for these claims, that I do not care how low mine are estimated. There is now a bill in this House in which I believe the hon. Member is somewhat interested; and there is a circular with one hundred and two names subscribed as opponents of it. Among these I find the names of Hertford, Cornwallis, Willoughby de Broke, and other gentlemen of great importance, who declare their intention of opposing the bill. Now, suppose, for we must go on mere hypothesis here, suppose, I say, that the Marquis of Hertford had any Member or Members in this House, I am sure, of course, that he has not, but suppose he had, and that that Member, instead of paying 5,000 l. for his seat, as described by an hon. Baronet the other night, had taken it on the condition or the understanding that he was to do the public and private business of the noble Marquis, and that he would be on the alert as to any thing that might pass in this House affecting the noble Marquis's estate. If he were required to come down to oppose this bill—if he were driven, nolens volens, against his own feelings here, I should like to know to what degree of influence he could be said to be subject. Then, Sir, there are such persons as stewards and receivers to very wealthy noblemen—to the Duke of Devonshire for instance. Have we no such gentlemen Members of this House? I am sure I respect one gentleman of that class very much, and I think no promotion ever did greater credit to the Government than his, and I would rather receive, like him, 5,000 l. a-year, than a few shilling fees, piecemeal, as an attorney. If such a Gentleman were told that he must oppose a bill for opening a canal that was to run through the domains at Chatsworth, he would possibly answer, "But I believe that bill will be a public benefit;" if he did, and his noble patron should reply, "Yes, but I disapprove of it;" oppose it he must, and what influence would he be under? In the course of last Session, a noble Lord near me, for whom I have the greatest respect, introduced a bill which was to be productive of advantage to his
1024
family. I believe I was almost the only man on this side of the House who staid here to oppose it [cries of no, no; it was thrown out]. Yes, it was thrown out by those who staid to throw it out; a powerful stream, however, of disinterested supporters left the House, and it was opposed by the hon. Members opposite. I only mention this to show that there are infinitely greater dangers in these things than in the open and avowed practice I have adopted. If this House come to a prospective Resolution, denouncing practices of this sort, there is no one more cordially inclined to support it than myself. But I have already protested against a Resolution being passed in personal unkindness to myself. The House will be acting more consistently if it passes a Resolution, embracing themselves as well as me. With that I shall be perfectly satisfied. I shall, therefore, move the following Resolution:—"That it is destructive of the ends of public and private justice, and inconsistent with the duty of any Member of this House to vote in a Committee on any Bill in which he is directly personally interested."
Mr. Humesaid, he should willingly second the hon. Member for Colchester, as he had already testified his opinions upon the subject by proposing two resolutions in a former Session, precisely of a similar nature to the Resolution proposed as an Amendment by the hon. Member. He was by no means favourable to the principle of selecting particular cases for the interference of the House while the grosser and more important evil remained entirely unnoticed. The House would assuredly do honour to itself and add materially to the dignity of its character, if it uniformly made it a practice to challenge any of its Members who should take a part in the proceedings on a bill in which he was found to be in any degree individually interested. For several successive years he had endeavoured to impress upon the House the necessity of adopting such a course, but he had been invariably answered that it was better to leave the whole matter to the sense of honour entertained by the Members themselves, trusting to their feelings and perception of propriety. He was not a friend, however, to any measure which tended to cast blame where no blame could be justly imputed. How could a solicitor exercise an undue or sinister influence over the conduct of a Committee, when he was not a Member of

1025
that committee? He protested against an inference which there was no reason whatever, in his opinion, to deduce. It was not befitting their notions of equity and justice to pass a resolution condemnatory of solicitors, where it was not possible that they could have the influence which alone might warrant such a proceeding on the part of the House. It would never be in their power to influence a committee on any bill in the manner suggested, but the case was widely different when an interested Member was permitted to sit in a committee. On the whole, he would much rather support the Amendment as a general measure, than the original Resolution. It would apply a general remedy to an extensive evil, whereas the Resolution of the hon. Mover would only apply to an individual case.
Mr. Broughamthought, that the hon. Member for Staffordshire placed his Motion on a considerably lower ground than it ought to occupy, when he founded it upon the Resolution of 1696. He marvelled to hear it made a matter of doubt whether an individual, being a Judge of one of the Courts at Westminster, a Justice of Quarter Sessions, or even a member of any inferior judicature, exercising deliberate functions, could practise in those Courts, Sessions, or Judicatures, as Counsel, Agent, or Solicitor. It was a proposition utterly repugnant in itself, and which required no argument to establish its absurdity. The same rule must apply to the Members of the House of Commons. But the hon. Member for Aberdeen had expressed himself of opinion, that no abuse could result from a Member of that House acting as a solicitor in cases of bills, provided he did not sit on the committee. He had inquired how a Member under such circumstances could possibly exercise undue influence to promote the success of the bill in which he was professionally interested. This question, he apprehended, would be best answered by propounding another, which he would thus put to that hon. Gentleman. Suppose he were himself personally concerned in the fate of a private bill, and that he was given the option between two solicitors, Mr. A. and Mr. B., whose services were respectively suggested. Mr. A. happens to be merely a professional man, but Mr. B. is a Member; and he now put it to him, as a sound man of business, whether he would hesitate a single moment in his choice—whether
1026
he would not decide in less time than it had taken to propose the question? In the case he supposed, there was to be an equality in the claims of both parties; and this point being conceded, ceteris paribus, he asked whether it would require a second moment's consideration? Would he not reply, "Do you take me for a fool; am I an idiot that you should insult my understanding by asking such a question? The Member certainly shall be my solicitor." It might be answered, then, that a standing order had been moved on the 26th of February, 1830, which required that no member should sit on the committee where he was an interested party. But the rejoinder still would be—"I care not for that; may be not have private access to other Members who will be on the committee? although the bill is to be discussed in committee, will it end there?" All Members would have the privilege of voting, however they might be restricted with respect to the committee; but even if they were tied up in the House and prevented from voting altogether, he still did not entertain any doubt that the circumstance of his being a Member would give him a very great advantage over others of the same profession. The assertion to the contrary had been made in the heat of argument, but the speaker, he was confident, on further consideration, would not" hesitate to retract it. Those reasons which might be most potent in inducing him to employ a Member to whom the House was likely to give a preference, ought to weigh equally with them as motives for putting a stop to the whole system for the future. He felt unwilling to use harsh names, but the advantage which any Member had so enjoyed could result only from the perversion and the abuse, not to say prostitution, of his privileges. It was universally acknowledged every where else, that the characters of a judge and a party concerned ought never to unite in the same person. Not long since, in a cause before the Privy Council, a Member who was interested personally attempted to obtain a hearing, but was instantly informed that he could not be listened to in his character of privy councillor, that it was competent for him to address that tribunal as a party, and that he would not be recognized for the time in any other character. Nor was there any thing to prevent a Member of that House from acting in a

1027
private capacity as party to a petition, but by a standing order he was very justly disqualified from voting. With respect to the emoluments of the Crown-officers, the hon. Member for Colchester laboured under a misconception, as they were not remunerated for any services which they might render to Government in their character as Members of Parliament. He wished also to explain another misconception, affecting himself personally as counsel in a celebrated case, which had been that evening alluded to, though he would first notice the present restrictions on barristers who happened to be Members of Parliament. They never attempted to come before the House as counsel in any department of their profession, nor were they suffered to be employed at an election, or before a committee on an election, although in the former case it was impossible that their professional engagement could interfere with their legislative duties, unless they happened to be ballotted for the committee. In his own case, he had carried the principle further, for after having been for three years a Member of Parliament, he was without a seat for three years succeeding, during which period he had made it a rule (from which he never in any instance departed) that he would not take a brief either in a private bill or a parliamentary committee, or, in short, upon any parliamentary business of any kind or sort whatever. And why had he done so? His connection with Parliament was then done away, and, for aught he knew, might never be renewed. But he acted from this feeling—he thought that, in delicacy to the members of his profession, he was bound to decline such practice. If any Gentleman wanted any satisfaction on this subject, it could easily be ascertained in the Court of King's Bench, where it was universally known that that was the ground upon which he acted. He felt that it might be said, "Here is a man who is one day in Parliament, and another day out of it. He has acquired a certain weight or standing in Parliament. He has formed connections there, and, consequently, he has a better chance of being favourably heard by committees, and, if any question should arise, he will possess advantages giving him a pre-eminence over other men of perhaps much greater merit." He had, therefore, a stained from all parliamentary practice, although the nature of his connections at
1028
the time would have rendered such practice by no means inconvenient for him. If such a principle were proper in his case, it must apply, a fortiori, to the circumstances to which the attention of the House was directed. But he felt it necessary to explain a matter upon which considerable misconception seemed to exist, and it was chiefly for that object that he had risen, he meant the supposed emoluments of the Queen's Counsel on that celebrated trial which had been alluded to. He desired to remove what he believed to be an erroneous impression as to the restriction upon Members of that House from being concerned in proceedings of that nature having been removed at the instance of the Queen's Counsel. His decided belief was, that it was not the Queen's Counsel, but the late Lord Londonderry, who desired to have that impediment removed, because he felt the great inconvenience which must result from the Crown not being able to employ, in furtherance of that bill, the services of the Attorney General and the Solicitor General. His impression on this point was strong and confident, because he had a distinct recollection of feeling much satisfaction that the impossibility, as he supposed, of his being employed in the House of Lords while a Member of this House, would afford him an opportunity of quitting for a season the laborious duties of a Member of Parliament. At that time he felt the pressure of those duties severely, and he was gratified at the prospect of obtaining a temporary release from them. Acting upon that feeling, he took measures with a view to quitting his place in Parliament. He brought forward the Education bills greatly to his own discomfiture, because he was obliged to bring them forward under the disadvantage of having to contend with other engrossing and overwhelming business; and indeed he believed he mentioned at the time that he did so, because he understood that it would be necessary for him soon to quit his place in that House. Whether it were Lord Castlereagh who made the motion to remove the restriction, or whether it proceeded from him (Mr. Brougham) and his friends, he could not take upon himself positively to assert, but it was his belief that it came from the Government. That he himself did not suggest the plan or encourage it, but, on the contrary, that he wished the matter to proceed upon the common law of

1029
Parliament, and that he made arrangements with that view, and brought some particular business before the House to forward those arrangements he was certain. This he was able to say, not merely from impression, but from a confident, distinct and precise recollection. He believed the measure originated with Lord Castlereagh, because his Lordship required the aid of the Attorney General and the Solicitor General, who could not quit Parliament as other advocates could do. He would beg the House to recollect that there was the greatest possible difference between counselor solicitors acting or soliciting bills in the House of Lords, and doing business of a similar nature in this House. But he admitted that, except upon extraordinary occasions, the rule to which he had referred ought not to be deviated from. It had been said, that the Queen's Counsel enjoyed enormous emoluments on the occasion of those proceedings. He would beg the attention of the House to the observations which he was about to offer on this point. The Queen's Counsel, during the whole time while that measure was under the consideration of Parliament, never, in any way, or in any form or shape whatever, exercised their professional capacity in that House. He himself appeared on the occasion solely in the character of a Member of Parliament; and he could assert that an hon. and learned friend, whom he lamented not to be able to appeal to on that occasion, as he was no longer a Member of Parliament—he meant Mr. Denman—and other hon. friends did with him act in that House without the interference of their client; that they acted upon their own responsibility as Members of Parliament; and that they refused, when occasion arose, to follow the instructions of their client. They acted as Members of Parliament, and not as Counsel for the Queen. As to their receiving any emoluments for any thing that they did in that House, such an idea never before crossed the mind of any man. It was never for a moment imagined that they received a single farthing, or any remuneration of whatever shape or sort, for the performance of any professional duties in that House, because there they could have no such duties to perform. Now, a word or two with respect to the large emoluments which the Queen's Counsel were supposed to have received for their services in another place. He could assure those who took any con-
1030
cern in the subject, that the Queen, or the individuals acting on her behalf, never paid any portion of the remuneration to the Counsel employed to conduct her case in the other House of Parliament. They were employed by the express and especial permission of the House of Commons, and under a protest against the case being made a precedent for future practice; but they never received from her Majesty any remuneration of any kind or sort for the performance of their professional duties in the House of Lords, from the beginning of those proceedings to the end. The whole expenses of that branch of the proceedings, as well as the rest of the expenses of the trial, were defrayed by the public. In making this statement he was anxious to be understood as saying nothing and. meaning nothing which could strengthen the prejudices he knew existed against the unfortunate but high-minded lady who was the object of these proceedings, and which prejudices ought at length to rest in the grave with her. He meant to say nothing that could be at all capable of being construed into any imputation upon the justice or the generosity of that illustrious personage. He could add that so little disposed was her Majesty to regard unfavourably the zealous and strenuous exertions made in her behalf, and the success of those exertions, however little share he personally might have had in that success—so little was her Majesty inclined to undervalue those strenuous, and so far as regarded his colleagues, able exertions, that no sooner by such efforts of her servants, and by the merits and justice of her own cause, was her defence accomplished, than her Majesty, on the very next morning, directed that the whole balance in her banker's hands, amounting at the time to 7,000 l., should be distributed between his colleagues and himself. They had, however, received their remuneration, and he repeated, that in fact her Majesty did not, for these reasons, directly or indirectly, pay any portion of the expenses of the trial. Another point had been touched upon, to which he would offer one word of reply. It was said that the fees of a solicitor were small as compared with those of counsel, being generally only 6s. 8d. or 13 s. 4d., even on most important business. Now certainly it was not for him to defend one branch of the profession at the expense of another; but he must remind the Gentlemen that the emoluments of solicitors

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did not consist of one fee of 6s. 8d. merely. He could be borne out by any hon. Member who had ever had the good fortune of paying a solicitor for his skill and assiduity in their favour—[a laugh], that solicitors were not at all confined to one fee of 6s. 8d., or 13 s. 4d. or 1l. 1s. Those fees were received by them frequently, and almost daily, in the course of their proceedings, and they had other emoluments arising from drawing deeds—so much a sheet for the draft. They also derived other emoluments indirectly from the copies and engrossments of pleadings, which made the 6s. 8d., or the 13 s. 4d. or the 1l. 1s. sink into insignificance as to the proportion which they formed of the total amount appearing at the bottom of the bill. He stated this the more confidently because the hon. Member for Colchester himself had, on a former occasion, exhibited a bill, in which, although there were fees for counsel included, yet no one counsel, or two counsel, received any thing approaching in amount the sum paid to the skilful attorney. He had felt it necessary to say this much because it was very much the custom to attack a profession, the members of which seldom made it a practice to defend themselves from such attacks, content to rest upon their own merits. Allusion had been made to a former Member of that House (Sir James Graham), who was said, while occupying a seat in Parliament, and after he had professed to have withdrawn from his profession, still to have occupied himself in soliciting private bills. He certainly had often heard this said as a jest, but had never heard any man attempt to utter it seriously as an imputation actually incurred by the gentleman to whom it was applied. In all the instances in which he had heard the remark made it was as a joke, encouraged and occasioned by his own good nature. This was what he had always understood to be the nature of that allusion; and he repeated that he had never heard any man apply it seriously as a merited censure; but this he could say from his own knowledge, and he felt bound to state it in justice to the hon. Baronet, and in vindication of the honour of Parliament—he had been once or twice in company with the hon. Baronet when he had heard him twitted—not with this charge, but with still carrying on his profession after he had appeared to quit it, and which was before he came into that House; and he never saw greater indig-
1032
nation, not to say violence, exhibited in rebutting any accusation, than was displayed by him; and in all such instances, after the explanation given by that hon. Baronet, the charge was always retracted by those who had made it, as was said, rather in jest than seriously.
The Attorney Generalsaid, that he could bear testimony to the correctness of the explanation of his hon. and learned friend of the circumstances relative to the late Sir James Graham. With regard to the fees supposed to be received by the law officers of the Crown for their professional duties in that House, all he could say was, that he had devoted much of his time to one particular bill, and it had never entered his head that he was to be compensated for his labours in that instance. He had never heard of any of the emoluments of the law officers being connected with or arising out of any bill in that House.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, that, so far as he was informed, and having been a law officer of the Crown, he was enabled to state the practice to the House, the fact was beyond dispute, that no law officer of the Crown ever received from the Government any fee for preparing, or for supporting in that House, any measure which it was found expedient to bring before Parliament. He was satisfied that the hon. Member for Colchester did not mean any indelicacy, but it really was not altogether delicate to suppose that because the law advisers of the Crown were called upon to support particular bills—a call to which they were sometimes obedient, and sometimes disobedient—to think that they were such servile characters that they received a fee upon every bill which the Government brought in. Now, he said not only that they took no such fees, but further, if any measures were proposed which might be contradictory to duty, to honour, or to principle, a man to whom those considerations were valuable would reject not only the fee but the office too. He was not offering these remarks on behalf of himself, but on behalf of his predecessors in office, and of those who might be their successors; and he repeated, that a man of honour, under such circumstances, would reject not only the fee, but the office too, which was something more valuable. He hoped, therefore, that the hon. Member for Colchester would not cast upon Gentlemen

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filling those high stations, the scandalous and degrading predicament which he attached to them; namely, that, when a bill was brought in by Government, the law officers who might support it were paid for such support; and he hoped that those who had heard the statement, and those who might hereafter read what had passed, would not carry away the conception so degrading to the law officers of the Crown, that when they acted in their legislative capacity they were paid for framing a bill, or for advocating it in its progress through that House. If the hon. Gentleman who mixed up the law officers so much with disgrace and corruption would take the trouble of reading the Debates in that House at the time when Lord North was Minister, and Mr. Thurlow Attorney General, he would find that when Lord North was sitting there (on the Treasury Bench), and Mr. Thurlow sitting there, the Attorney General voted in opposition to the Ministry. This, therefore, might be taken as a proof, that the law officers of the Crown were not always so subservient or obsequious to the Crown, or so susceptible to the sort of influence which the hon. Member supposed to be their governing principle.
Mr. Baringsaid, the hon. Member for Colchester had been quite mistaken in the whole of his statement respecting Sir James Graham, who, from the moment of entering the House, disclaimed all participation in the profits of the partnership alluded to. The same he knew was the case with Mr. Smith, who, though Solicitor to the East-India Company had never been concerned as a parliamentary agent in any business whatever. It was the less necessary, he thought, to enter into a resolution of the nature then before the House, as it had all along been distinctly understood, that whenever any Member had a direct interest in any thing coming before a committee, he immediately withdrew from it. On that ground he did not see the necessity of the House coming to any resolution such as that which had been proposed.
Mr. Hobhousecould not see how there could be two opinions on the subject of the Resolution. He confessed that he thought the House was indebted to the hon. Member for Colchester for bringing the question to such a form, as that it resolved itself into this—Was the practice alluded to carried on openly or otherwise?
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He was ready to admit that the minds of some persons might be so constituted as not to consider it objectionable to pursue the practice in question, though it certainly was such a practice as he could by no means reconcile it to his mind to follow. There had been an old adage, "that every man had a right to do what he liked with his own."—Though true, in most other instances, it was clear it was not so as respected the use which a Member of Parliament might make of his abilities or influence, as in the case of the hon. Member for Colchester. The explanation of his conduct given by that hon. Member was certainly ingenious, and though not satisfactory to his (Mr. H.'s) mind, yet might be perfectly so to the hon. Member himself: for it was to be presumed that there was that in the constitution of his mind which led him to think there was nothing wrong in the practice. He wished to preserve his hon. friend, the Member for Montrose, from having it imputed to him that he defended the conduct of the Member for Colchester. He certainly did not think it right that any Member, directly or indirectly interested in a question coming before any committee, should serve upon that committee. The hon. Member for Colchester said, that he had done nothing more than had been done by many others as well as himself; and contended, with some appearance of reason, that he should not be turned out into the wilderness as the scape goat, with all the sins of the House of Commons upon his head; and no doubt the practice of hon. Gentlemen voting upon questions in which they had an interest was too common to justify any very severe visitation upon the hon. Member for Colchester. As to the question then before the House, he should vote for the Resolution of the hon. Member for Staffordshire; and he thought the House much indebted to that hon. Gentleman for having brought it forward. As it had been submitted to the House, they must come to a vote upon it; and having the Question put, they could not do otherwise than decide in its favour. At the same time the practice against which the present Amendment was directed was a practice contrary to the dignity of Parliament; nay, it was opposed to the feelings, not only of a gentleman, but of a man, to do anything so obviously contrary to the first principles of justice as to sit on a

1035
committee which was to decide a question wherein he had a direct interest. Admiting all that, however, he would recommend the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his Amendment for the purpose of making it a substantive motion, and should that be done, he should have no objection to vote in its favour. He could not join in the exculpatory account which had been given of the conduct of committees above stairs; and for the purpose of justifying his dissent from those accounts, he should state literally some facts which came under his observation. There were some facts he would not state, from delicacy to the parties; but he should lay before the House such a statement as would leave no doubt that his views on the subject were well founded.—Not long ago a committee was appointed, of which he was a member, and the question at issue involved a very large amount of money. The chairman was deeply interested. On the occasion to which he particularly referred, five members were in attendance, of whom two, in addition to the chairman, were deeply interested in having the measure under consideration passed. Previous to going to the vote, he (Mr. H.) rose in the committee, and stated that he did not think it by any means proper that persons so deeply interested should take a part in its proceedings. The chairman replied, that many of his (Mr. H.'s) constituents, the electors of Westminster, were also interested in the result, and that the member for Westminster, was as much disqualified from acting and voting in that committee as any hon. Member in that House. However, the question was discussed and decided, and three carried it against two, in favour of the bill.—He would now mention another case: early in the last Session, a committee was appointed, of which a very influential gentleman was appointed chairman, and on one occasion he came to him (Mr. H.) and asked him to preside one day in the committee—he learned subsequently that that chairman was most deeply interested in the question which that committee had to decide; and certainly, if he had not been ignorant of the whole matter, he should not have undertaken to preside in the room of any chairman so circumstanced. In fact, he since learned that that chairman had interests at stake, amounting to thousands and tens of thousands. With such facts before them,
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they could not doubt that it behaved them (the question being once brought before them) to remove the blot upon their character which the practice in question seemed to leave; for they could not shut their eyes to the statements of facts which had been made. The practice was one which they were bound to put down.—He should now call the attention of the House to a circumstance which happened to the hon. Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Brougham). He had undertaken, in his capacity of a Member of that House, to bring forward certain charges against the governor of a distant colony, who was accused of malversation in his conduct of the affairs of that colony. Those were serious charges; and any charge could not fail to be serious in the hands of the Member for Knaresborough. God forbid that any friend of his should fall under the chastisement of that hon. and learned Gentleman! On the occasion in question, instead of following up those charges, he came down to the House, and said that he was employed as counsel in the causes arising out of those accusations, and that therefore, as a Member of Parliament, he could not take any share in such measures as the Legislature might think proper to adopt with respect to them. He would not state for which of the parties the hon. and learned Gentleman was employed; it was enough that he had, in his professional capacity, access to the information possessed by one of them. He considered it such as unfitted him for the discharge of the duties of a legislator on the particular question at issue. If such a feeling was approved of in a most distinguished Member of Parliament, it could not be borne that any Member of that House should act in his legislative capacity to promote his private interests. He hoped, therefore, that the hon. Member for Colchester would bring forward his Amendment as a substantive proposition, when it should have his earnest support; for nothing could be more contrary to common justice and common sense, than for hon. Members to sit up stairs in one capacity, and come down to the House in another.
Sir M. W. Ridleyobserved, that the question was not whether hon. Members having a direct or an indirect interest in questions before committees ought or ought not to sit upon them; the question was, whether the House should or should

1037
not express its reprobation of the practice of Members of that House employed professionally using the influence they possessed to promote the objects of their clients. It was their duty, if possible, to devise means for preventing Members of that House voting in committees in which they were interested; but it was perhaps a still more important duty for them to prevent professional persons from using the privileges and facilities which belonged to them as such for the purposes of private interest. It might be said, that it would be rather a hard case to require the dissolution of connections formed with parties concerned in proceedings before that House; but he thought that where such alliances did exist they ought to be broken through; such alliances were most unparliamentary alliances, and the sooner they were dissolved the better.
The Solicitor Generalrepeated that the question was as had been stated by the last speaker, and expressed his strong disapprobation of the circular letter which had been mentioned—he never read anything more objectionable. The conduct of all professional men ought to be above reproach, and he considered that it was extremely unfair in Members of that House, by themselves or by their partners, to become solicitors or agents for one party or the other.
Sir C. Burrellpressed the hon. Member for Westminster to explain the allusions to members of the committees and chairmen of committees, contained in his speech. He was perfectly aware that it would not be consistent with the forms and the usages of that House for him to mention the names of the parties to whom he alluded, but he could state the occasion, the period, and such other particulars as could leave no doubt who were meant. It was only right that the House should receive some explanation, and it was only fair that the parties should have an opportunity of defending themselves, if any defence they had.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, that the rule was perfectly clear, that parties interested should not sit upon committees, and there were more abuses of a similar description which called for the interference of the House. Let those cases be brought forward separately, and he, for one, would most readily lend his assistance in abolishing the evil. Nothing could be more distinct and explicit than the proceedings
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of Parliament on all occasions with respect to questions of that nature. On the Queen's trial, her Attorney and Solicitor General, being Members of that House, applied for permission to attend at the Bar of the House of Lords, in order to their being there heard as her Counsel. That permission was granted, with express condition that they should, pledge themselves, in the event of the Bill of Pains and Penalties proposed against her Majesty, coming down to that House, not to take any part in the proceedings on that measure. Upon that the permission was granted.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, he had listened with great attention to the present discussion, and he had come to the decision of voting with the hon. Member for Staffordshire, for which he should give three reasons—and in a sentence; first, because it was consistent with the uniform practice of the House, that lawyers should not take any part, as members of Parliament, in any proceedings wherein they were professionally engaged, and he thought the same rule should apply to Solicitors.—Secondly, that any Member taking pecuniary rewards for his services, did that which was incompatible with the discharge of any parliamentary duty. Thirdly, the practice referred to gave Members of Parliament an undue preference over the other members of their own profession, and thereby it should not be sanctioned by that House. And here he was bound to say, that the hon. Member for Colchester had made what he thought an undue use of the privilege of franking, in sending his circulars, under the sanction of his parliamentary privilege, free of postage. He did not conceive that voting for the proposition of his hon. friend, the Member for Staffordshire, conveyed any blame upon the conduct of the hon. Member for Colchester, for he might certainly have taken a different view of the subject from that which other hon. Members were in the habit of taking. As to the other Resolution, he thought it ought not to be taken in connection with that of his hon. friend; each ought to stand on its own merits, and be decided after a separate discussion. The utmost difficulty, he apprehended, would be found in any attempt to exclude from committees Members having indirect interests in the matters at issue [Mr. D. W. Harvey said, the object

1039
of his Motion was to exclude those who had direct interests].—If it merely applied to persons having a direct interest, it was unnecessary, since that was already sufficiently well provided against. The indirect interests that hon. Members had were most numerous: for example, every Member of that House had an interest in the Corn Laws, or the commutation of Taxes. For the reasons he had given, he should vote for the Motion of his hon. friend the Member for Staffordshire; and from the explanation given by the hon. Member opposite, he did not feel called upon to pronounce any opinion upon his Amendment.
Mr. D. W. Harveysaid, not wishing to disturb the unanimity of the House, he would vote for the Motion of the hon. Member for Staffordshire. What he complained of was, that that Motion did not go far enough; and the object of his Amendment would be, to carry it to the extent which he thought the necessity of the case required. With that view, he proposed to add it in the form of another Resolution. He had, at no time, the least idea that he was acting in any manner contrary to the laws or usages of Parliament; indeed, the very manner in which he proceeded was an evidence that he did not conceive he was doing anything wrong. To that he had only to add, that, so soon as he became aware of his error, no one could be more ready to yield than he had been; and, as a proof of the sincerity of his declaration, the next Gazette should announce the dissolution of the partnership which had given rise to the present complaint. The law officers of the Crown received fees for professional advice on matters on which they might be called upon to vote in that House; and the hon. Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Brougham), after making the whole House expect a motion little short of impeachment against a noble Lord who had held office in a distant part of the world, had appeared before the Privy Council as that noble Lord's advocate! after which circumstance, he stated that he was bound to say that his opinion on the noble Lord's conduct was altered. Allusion has been made to the use of franks; but before any charge was made against him, it should be remembered, that bankers, who were Members, made use of the privilege in their business to the saving
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of 900 l. a year; and as there were frequently three or four Members in one banking concern, this extended to no less a sum than 3,600 l. His intention was to withdraw his Amendment till the original Motion was disposed of, and then to propose it in the shape of an original motion.
Mr. Lambsaid, he had been disposed to congratulate the House on the temper in which the discussion had been carried on, but the last speech of the hon. Member for Colchester had taken away all reason for congratulation. He had severely arraigned the conduct of the hon. Member for Knaresborough, though he had done well for himself to defer his attack till that hon. Gentleman had quitted the House.
The Amendment was withdrawn, and the original Motion carried nem. con.
Mr. Harveythen proposed his Amendment as an original Motion. He said he had not intended to make any attack on the hon. Member for Knaresborough; but had only cited that case to show what was the usage of Parliament.
Mr. Humeseconded the Motion.
Mr. Littletonmoved, as an Amendment, that the other Orders of the Day should be read.
Mr. Alderman Waithmansupported the Motion, because he thought the Resolutions of that House on such a subject could not be too strong and too comprehensive.
Mr. O'Connellhoped, that it would not go forth to the public that they had been two hours by the clock straining at a gnat, after so often swallowing, not only a camel, but a whole caravan of camels.
Mr. Sadlersupported the Amendment, on the ground that the Journals of the House were already over-loaded with rules.
Mr. Wynnsaid, that the Motion of the hon. Gentleman was already a rule of the House, and that it was quite unnecessary to enforce that rule by any further declaration, unless some specific cases were brought before Parliament. At present there was nothing but unsupported accusations.
Mr. W. Smithcould not concur in the Motion.
Mr. Crokersaid, that the law of Parliament always was, that a Member interested could not vote; and, therefore, the hon. Gentleman's Motion was worse than nothing, because it restricted that non-voting to committees up stairs only.
The House then divided, when there appeared for Mr. Harvey's Motion 26; against it 174. Majority against the Motion 148.

List of the Minority.

Baring, Sir T

Stewart, J.

Blake, Sir F.

Sebright, Sir J.

Bernal, R.

Taylor, M. A.

Cave, O.

Tennyson, C.

Duncombe, T.

Trant, W. H.

Denison, W. J.

Thomson, Powlett

Dawson, A.

Waithman, Ald.

Grant, R.

Whitbread, H.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Warburton, H.

Howard, H.

Wood, J.

Maberly, J.

Wood, Ald.

Marshall, W.

TELLERS.

O'Connell, D.

D. W. Harvey

Sykes, D.

Joseph Hume.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The Order of the Day being read for the House going into a Committee of Supply,
Sir T. Byam Martin, on the Motion for the Speaker leaving the Chair, expressed his regret at being under the necessity of trespassing for a short time on the attention of the House, and detaining it from going into a Committee. He had to complain that an hon. Baronet opposite (Sir H. Parnell) had, in a book on Financial Reform, thrown out imputations against him and against the Navy Board, which were totally unfounded, and decidedly contrary to the evidence given before the Finance Committee, on which the statements were alleged to be founded. The hon. Baronet asserted, that the Navy Board appeared by that evidence to have been mainly instrumental in preventing the execution of those measures of economy and retrenchment proposed by the Admiralty. He denied this most positively. He denied that any portion of his evidence, or of the; evidence of any other person before the Finance Committee, would bear out such a conclusion; and he called on the hon. Baronet to declare to the House that he had been instrumental in propagating a reflexion on the character of the Board which was not borne out by the facts. Had the Navy Board acted in the manner described by the hon. Baronet, it would have been unworthy of the confidence either of the Admiralty or the country. The hon. Baronet says, "According to the evidence given before the Finance Committee by Sir G. Cockburn,
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Sir G. Clerk, Mr. Douglas, and Mr. Barrow, it appears that of late years the Admiralty have made various efforts to reduce the Civil Expenditure of the Navy. It seems, however, that they were so much opposed as to be able to accomplish in this department only some trifling reductions, but that with respect to the Victualling Office, in consequence of the commissioners having zealously co-operated with them, a very great reformation and saving of expense had been effected. In the last Session the old Navy Board was abolished, and a new one formed, according to a suggestion of the Committee of Finance, on the model of the Ordnance Board. As the evidence just referred to explains the practicability of making some considerable reductions in this department, this change should lead to a large saving of the public money. Some doubt may, however, be entertained of the reform of the constitution of this Board being as effective as it ought to be, in consequence of the same individuals having seats at it who have hitherto been backward in promoting measures of reform and retrenchment. Had the Committee of Finance been renewed, so as to have had it in their power to make a report on the Navy, they could not have avoided censuring in strong terms the conduct of the Navy Board in persevering to resist the superior authority of the Admiralty." He would then observe to the House that he had attentively read the whole of the evidence given before the Committee of Finance, and he could find no part of it which warranted the interpretation given to it by the hon. Baronet. The strongest passage was that in which his hon. friend, Mr. Keith Douglas, said, "I am certainly of opinion that if the Committee were to strengthen the hands of the Admiralty, by conveying a strong recommendation in favour of economy and retrenchment, it could not fail to have a good effect." There could be no doubt of the truth of this assertion, but he did not see how it justified the imputations of the hon. Baronet. In what he had stated about the Navy Board not being as effective as it ought to be in consequence of old Members having seats at it, the hon. Baronet had cast a severe censure on the conduct of every Member of that Board who had been a Member of the former Board. So far, however, was he (Sir B. Martin) from opposing the

1043
wishes of the Admiralty, that Lord Melville had done him the honour to consult him as to the best means of carrying the recommendations of the Finance Committee into effect, and had done him the further honour of adopting his suggestions. The hon. Baronet was quite unwarranted, therefore, either by any evidence given before the Finance Committee, or by the conduct of the Navy Board since, to cast such aspersions on the character of that Board. Nothing would gratify him more than to bring every member connected with that Board to the Bar of the House, in order to prove that the assertions of the hon. Baronet respecting it were unfounded. He, as well as every member of that Board, had, at all times, exerted themselves to keep down the expenditure; although the hon. Baronet had taken leave, without the shadow of authority from evidence, to condemn the conduct of a whole body of men, without allowing the opportunity to defend themselves. He called on the hon. Baronet to rise in his place and declare in what part of the evidence before the Finance Committee he found the statements which supported the charge against the Board, of opposing retrenchment. There were no grounds for that charge; and a more unjust and more ungenerous proceeding than that adopted by the hon. Baronet had scarcely ever been brought under the notice of the House. The hon. Baronet had made charges against him, but he ought rather to have brought accusations against the hon. Baronet. The hon. Baronet had been Chairman of the Committee—Why did he not call him (Sir B. Martin) before that Committee when he heard these imputations against the Navy Board? The hon. Baronet had been exceedingly remiss in his duty; because he was bound, as Chairman, to have sought this information. It might be said that the termination of the sittings of that Committee prevented him. Why, the whole proceeding would not have occupied ten minutes. It would have satisfied the hon. Baronet and the Committee that his conduct, and that of the Navy Board, had been perfectly pure and unspotted; and he was convinced, the hon. Baronet, if he had thought proper to call for these explanations, would never have stigmatised his conduct in the manner he had done in a nine-and-sixpenny pamphlet. The hon. Baronet had done him the honour, in that
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pamphlet, to quote a portion of his evidence, and he said in alluding to the great success of the British Navy in diminishing the naval power of other countries," Sir T. B. Martin stated in his evidence before the Committee of Finance, the glorious fact, that England seemed to have swept from the face of the ocean the fleets of her enemies by the destruction of one hundred and fifty-six sail of the line, three hundred and eighty-two large frigates, six hundred and sixty-two corvettes, with other vessels, making in all two thousand five hundred and six vessels of war." "Notwithstanding this fact however," added the hon. Baronet, "no less than 63,000,000 l. have been granted by Parliament since 1815, for the effective Naval Service, just as if the whole two thousand five hundred and six vessels had never been taken or destroyed, and were all ready to be employed against us." This seemed to him a sad perversion of the evidence given before the Finance Committee, and as he was already aware that the hon. Baronet's statements had made a very erroneous impression on the public, he would read to the House the evidence he had himself given. "It is not for me to presume," he was quoting the evidence as given before the Finance Committee "to offer any opinion as to the effective Naval Force which it may be proper for this country to maintain in time of peace: it is a political question with which I have no concern, and must be decided partially with reference to the naval strength and resources of other countries; but it may be well to remark, that in all former periods of peace the efforts of England were unremitted in bringing the Navy into a formidable state, and particularly so between 1783 and 1793, when upon the breaking-out of the war we had ninety-one sail of the line fit for service; and although the continental powers directed their attention more to military than naval matters, the large force was found inadequate to the growing wants of the Government, in the formation of squadrons for the various and distant objects of protection and enterprise they had in view, and hence the necessity of having recourse to private merchant builders, to which may be traced the rapid and alarming decay of the ships, and the consequent waste of millions of the public money. But notwithstanding the large

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force with which the war was commenced, and the aid of merchant builders, in constructing ships of the line; notwithstanding the extraordinary and glorious fact that England seemed to have swept from the face of the ocean the fleets of her enemies, by the capture or destruction of one hundred and fifty-six sail of the line, three hundred and eighty-two large frigates, six hundred and sixty-two corvettes, and in all two thousand five hundred and six sail of vessels of war, still the last day of the war found every energy strained, and the whole shipwright strength of the Kingdom combined, in order to meet the wants of the country in all quarters of the globe, and to keep pace with the gigantic efforts of Buonaparte in applying the great naval resources of Finance and Holland, in the augmentation of the French Marine. I may, therefore, say with propriety, that the period of peace is the time to provide such an ample stock of line-of-battle ships, as may prevent the risk of the country falling again into the hands of the Merchant Builders." A conclusion directly the reverse of that drawn by the hon. Baronet, naturally arose out of that evidence; he however, omitting all these gratifying circumstances, all the circumstances which were stated to justify our large expenditure during peace, went on to state most unfairly, "But this is not all; for after having spent so many millions (as sixty-three since the peace), it would appear by the sums voted in 1829, for artificers, timber, &c. that the time for reducing the Navy Expenditure is not yet arrived. Sir T. B. Martin says, respecting the force now employed, it may be said, if contrasted with former periods of peace, that we have a fleet in commission approaching more to a war than a peace establishment." Thus did the hon. Baronet make what he must call garbled extracts from his evidence, and in stating them without the proper qualifications, led the public to believe that the sums expended on the Navy since the peace had all been wasted in wanton extravagance; whereas nothing was better established than the fact, that a fleet could not be created in a day, and that the country, if it desired to be secure against foreign aggression, must in peace incur the expense of being prepared for war. The hon. Baronet had also charged the Navy Board with extravagance in the
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building of ships, and in the manufacture of canvas and chain-cables. Now, he denied the imputation respecting the building of ships; and as to the manufacture of canvas and chain-cables, there never had been a single yard of canvas, or an inch of chain-cable, manufactured by the Navy Board since the Navy was a Navy. He appealed to the hon. Baronet to acknowledge that he had been in error, and to remedy by that declaration the injury he had done to the Navy Board.
Sir H. Parnellthanked the hon. Member for the discretion he had shown in bringing this subject before the House, and for his kindness in communicating to him his intention to do so. He would commence by observing, that it was the right of every individual to discuss those matters which were connected with the administration of public affairs; and to a Member of Parliament that right became a duty which was almost imperative. It was, he confessed, extremely difficult, in writing on such subjects, to avoid falling into expressions that might be too strong for the feelings of individuals, although in point of fact, he had taken the utmost care to shun every offensive word. He was not now, however, prepared to state that the impression he had received on the subject of the Navy Board had been altered; and a conversation which he had held with a noble Lord (Althorp), since he received the hon. Member's Letter yesterday morning, tended to confirm his first impression. His impression respecting the evidence on the subject of the Navy Board certainly was, that the Board had opposed itself to the views of the Admiralty on the subject of retrenchment. He recollected well, indeed, the reply made by Mr. Barrow, when questioned on that subject. When asked if he knew the reason why the reductions proposed had not taken place? Mr. Barrow answered in a tone and manner which struck him at the moment, and which he well remembered, "that the Navy Board could answer that question much better than he could." His impression then, as now, from that evidence, was that which he had stated in the pamphlet. With respect to the hon. and gallant Officer, he disclaimed any personal motive in what he had said respecting him. He was convinced that there was not an individual in the public service who did

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his duty more zealously and faithfully; and he had no doubt, that even when the hon. and gallant officer resisted economy, it was from the best motives. But his impression still remained as to the conduct of the Navy Board; and he had the satisfaction to be authorised to state, that if his noble friend, the Member for Northamptonshire, who had that morning gone over the evidence with him, had been in his place, he would have declared that he thought the paragraph in his (Sir H. Parnell's) work, which ascribed to the Navy Board a disposition to resist the Admiralty's efforts at retrenchment, completely borne out by that evidence. With respect to the two points which regarded the building of ships, and the manufacture of canvas and chain-cables, he candidly admitted, that on reflection and consideration, he did not think that he had sufficient grounds for the conclusion to which he had arrived; but with respect to the resistance made by the Navy Board to the Admiralty, he repeated that his opinion was entirely unchanged.
Sir O. Cockburnthought it but just to his hon. and gallant friend to say, in the first place, that it was the duty of the Navy Board to state to the Board of Admiralty any observations which appeared to them to be advantageous for the public service; and, in the second place, that whatever was actually ordered by the Admiralty, was always executed by the Navy Board with zeal and dispatch. It was certainly true, that if the Navy Board had entirely concurred with the Admiralty, things would have gone on faster. But when objections to any proposition were made by practical men, it was the duty of the Admiralty to consider those objections maturely before they rejected them. He repeated, however, that whatever the Board of Admiralty finally decided should be done was done immediately.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, he was rejoiced to find that the discussion had terminated in a manner so creditable to all parties. The hon. Baronet, asserting his just right to comment on the conduct of any public department, had yet, with great candour, allowed that, on mature reflection, there were points on which he had come to a hasty conclusion; and he had also given his hon. and gallant friend full credit for zeal in the discharge of his duty. It appeared to him, therefore, that the discussion had been creditable to both parties.
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The hon. Baronet, however, persevered in his opinion that the Navy Board might have conformed with more alacrity to the wishes of the Admiralty. If, however, the Navy Board had been entirely passive and acquiescent, they would have been called tools in the hands of the Lords of the Admiralty, and persons who never dared to have an opinion of their own. As to the conclusion which the hon. Baronet had drawn from the statement by Mr. Barrow,—that for information on the subject respecting which he had been questioned, the Committee had better apply to the Navy Board—it appeared to him to be erroneous, and that Mr. Barrow's meaning was simply that the Navy Board could give the best information on the subject.
Sir Byam Martinfelt himself bound to acknowledge the very handsome and honourable manner in which the hon. Baronet had expressed himself. He hoped, however, that if the hon. Baronet published a second edition of his pamphlet he would correct the errors into which he had fallen, [a laugh.]
Mr. Maberlywas sure that his hon. friend never intended any thing personal against the hon. Baronet. The right hon. Gentleman had observed that his hon. friend had conceded two points. That was true, but they were minor points. On the principal question—namely, whether the Navy Board had done its duty or not—his hon. friend's opinion remained unaltered; and he entirely concurred with him. The hon. Baronet had read a portion of the evidence given before the Finance Committee, but if he had the whole of Mr. Barrow's evidence he would have confirmed the statement of his hon. friend, that the Navy Board had, between the years 1815 and 1821, opposed reduction. Mr. Barrow's evidence, which he would read, was as follows:—"Has not the Admiralty Board a general superintendance over the whole of the department?—Unquestionably; but until the war was finished the Lords of the Admiralty could not very well be spared to go down; and shortly after the war was finished a visitation made some slight reduction, but not to any great extent. It was not till 1821 that the Board was at liberty to examine more strictly into the state of the dock-yards and cause greater reductions to be made.—Since 1821, why were not those reductions made which appear to be necessary, and which you now have carried into effect?—

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I think it was in the year 1822 that the Lords of the Admiralty were reduced to four; since which, they certainly have not had much time to devote to the dockyards, personally, to inspect matters of that kind. His Royal Highness, the Lord High Admiral, would probably have taken down two of his council this last summer, to look into the state of the dock-yards, and to sec what reductions could be made, or improvements suggested, but it was found to be absolutely impossible, and Mr. Douglas and myself only, had the honour to accompany his Royal Highness.—At what time were those circumstances requiring reduction known to the Board of Admiralty?—There have been a variety of opinions respecting the reduction of the dockyards; the opinion of the Navy Board, generally, went very much against that measure. I believe they are now rather more inclined to think that they may be carried to a certain extent.—Do you recollect the instructions received from the Treasury in 1821 to reduce the expenditure of the Navy?—They applied, I believe, only to the naval departments in town, and it was done.—Were not the instructions applicable to all parts of the expenditure?—I think not, so far as I recollect; but it was in 1821 that we made our reductions, which were very considerable, amounting in that year to 62,666 l.—Is it intended to revise and consider the total organization of those yards, or merely for the purpose of making reductions on the present organization?—To do away or to modify the present, and, at all events, to introduce a system more simple in its principles, and at the same time to make such reductions as may be found expedient.—How long have the dockyards been going on in the state you have described?—The first visitation that was made of late years to the dock-yards was in 1813, when Lord Melville took down two members of the Board and myself; we then went over all the dock-yards, and a very voluminous Report was drawn up, containing suggestions on a great variety of matters which occurred to the Board; but we were not able from the state of the war, and other circumstances, to make any very considerable reductions till the year 1821, when Lord Melville, Sir George Cockburn, Sir George Clerk, and myself, went down to Chatham dockyard, where we examined minutely into every department, and inspected the whole
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establishment, the result of which was, that one great officer of every dock-yard, called the Clerk of the Survey, was abolished, with all his clerks, as being of no use-By this a saving was effected of 10,000 l. or 12,000 l. a year. It then clearly appeared, that a body of men, with the same duties nearly as, and in addition to, those of the Measurers, called Quarter-men, amounting, I think, to nearly two hundred in the whole of the dock-yards, with salaries from 140 l. to 180 l. a year each, were of little or no use, in superintending the workmen, and were accordingly recommended to be abolished.—Has not that alteration been very strongly objected to by the Commissioners of the Dock-yards?—I cannot speak as to the Commissioners of the Dock-yards, but it was objected to by the Navy Board at the time very strongly, and the ' discharged Quarter-men have obtained numerous applications from Members of Parliament for counties and boroughs, on their behalf, for they were almost all of them freemen of one place or another.—Have you ever made any reductions any where against which you have not found great objections and great remonstrances?—Most unquestionably not, and it is very natural that it should be so."
Sir George Clerk was also examined by the Committee, and his evidence was as follows:—"Did you examine into the manner in which the accounts of either of these departments were kept?—Of course, it was a necessary part of that investigation to examine into the manner in which the accounts were kept, so as to form an opinion of the employment of the clerks.—What was your opinion after that survey?—That many of the forms were of antiquated date, and were not applicable to the present extended system of the naval service, and that they might be very much simplified by the introduction of an improved method of keeping accounts.—Can you suggest any means for reducing the expense of the dockyards?—I certainly entertain an opinion I believe in common with the other members of the Board of Admiralty who visited the various dock-yards in the year 1822, that there was an unnecessary quantity of superintendants, especially in the shipwright department in the dock-yards. The Committee are of course aware, that at the time the Commissioners of Naval Inquiry made an investigation into the state

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of the dock-yards, particularly Plymouth, they were struck with the want of proper attention to check the earnings of the people; and that great losses thereby accrued to the public. The Commissioners of Naval Revision, in consequence of that, suggested a great number of checks, with a view to preventing such losses to the public in future, and perhaps they ran into the opposite extreme, and multiplied the checks further than was necessary. The Admiralty, in the investigation in 1822, suggested great alterations in the mode of conducting the shipwrights' business, which led to the discharge of a great many petty officers, the whole of one class altogether, and a few others. The measure was considered as one of very doubtful policy by many of the commissioners of the Navy, and by the resident commissioners at the Dock-yards. A very-considerable saving was immediately effected, I believe nearly 60,000 l. by that measure. The Board of Admiralty made a subsequent investigation in the year 1824, for the purpose of seeing how that alteration which they had suggested was working, and they found at that time that their views had not in some instances been fully understood, and they took that opportunity of explaining more fully the particular manner in which they wished the superintendance to be conducted. Since that time nothing further has been done; but I have very little doubt that no inconvenience has arisen to the public service from that reduction, and that there might be further reduction made, especially with regard to the measurement of the work, in order to set down what have been the earnings of the people."
It would be plain from this evidence to the House that the statement made by the hon. Baronet was fully borne out, and that the efforts of the Admiralty had been obstructed by the Navy Board. He did not believe, however, that either of the Boards had been very desirous to promote retrenchment. Although he might run the risk of tiring the House, he would read another extract to show that the Admiralty needed to be strengthened by a recommendation from the Finance Committee:
"Have those transactions come within your own knowledge, or is it only the understanding you have acquired?—It is merely from my necessary communication with the office I have become acquainted with those circumstances.—Is there any
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other item in the Navy Office in relation to which you have a suggestion to make?—No.—Have yon examined lately into the Navy Office?—I have had a great deal of examination into the affairs of the yards, and the books kept in them, and which have a necessary connexion with many of the duties of the Navy Office. "It has been considered, that by a different management of the business within the Navy Office a greater degree of general responsibility would be given to the commissioners than exists at present, and probably, for the same reason, more general intelligence amongst its members of the business which is conducted within the office. It has been thought there might be a consolidation with advantage of the Committees of Stores and of Accounts into one Committee; and that, if the whole Board were to be a party to the duties which are now discharged by the Committee of Correspondence, a great improvement would be effected. It has also been thought, that by such arrangement, a diminution of two of the number of the present commissioners might be effected. As to the number of clerks in that establishment, it is quite impossible for me to speak with any certainty of the extent of the reduction that might be effected in them; but, independently of the duties that they now discharge, in taking account of all the Returns made from ships afloat, and of the persons in those ships, there are naturally very extensive duties they have to discharge in taking account of the whole of the transactions that occur within the yards. I would observe, that it has occurred very strongly to myself, and to other persons who have visited the yards, that the Returns which are made from them daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, and annually, are much more voluminous than is necessary for any practical use. It occurs to me, that by revising those returns in the yards, which the Admiralty are very capable of doing, a very great diminution of unnecessary labour would, probably, be effected, and such proceeding would, probably, also indicate the means of diminishing considerably clerk-duties that are now carried on in the Navy-Office.—Would not, the improvement and simplification of the business of the Navy Office which you point out, not only be attended with a saving of money, but make much clearer the whole business of

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that office, and the responsibility under which it is conducted?—I conceive very much so; by a good classification of accounts, probably, the best check is established in conducting an extensive concern of that kind, and all the necessary duties of the persons employed in those establishments would be much more clearly indicated by doing so, than by any other method."
The hon. Member said, all this evidence proves that the Admiralty was not supported by the Navy Board, and that the former Board was anxious to have it strengthened by a vote of the Committee. Between the reluctance of the one Board, and the hesitation of the other to enforce its authority, it was clear that the public had for many years suffered great loss.
Mr. Humeobserved, that if ever evidence was satisfactory, it was that which established the fact that the Admiralty were anxious for a reduction of expenditure, and would have reduced it but for the indisposition of the Navy Board to concur in the measure. In support of this opinion he would refer to the evidence before the Committee; and especially to that of one of the Lords of the Admiralty (Mr. Keith Douglas), who expressed his wish that the Committee would strengthen the hands of the Admiralty by some vote declaratory of its opinion that the Admiralty ought to carry its own views into effect. His evidence, as quoted by the hon. Member, was as follows;—"Have you any thing to suggest to the Committee as to the directing and supervising authority of the Admiralty over those Boards?—I think that the Admiralty have exercised so strict a superintendence by their visitation, that they are perfectly competent to suggest any alterations that may be necessary in the subordinate departments of the Admiralty, probably in the most efficient and satisfactory manner, for they have looked into the details; which it is important to know, and they learn from the correspondence which is constantly carried on, how the business is working. Having the knowledge which they possess, I am certainly of opinion, that if this committee were to strengthen the hands of the Admiralty by conveying to them a strong recommendation that they should carry their own views of improvement into effect, that it is in this manner that the most safe and effectual reforms can be effected.—Do you con-
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ceive that the Admiralty require to be reinforced by any such authority, or that there does not reside in the council of the Lord High Admiral sufficient authority?—I conceive in its subordinate departments, where parties are very much interested in maintaining an over establishment, they are always inclined to make resistance against any alterations which are to take away the emoluments of the departments. Retrenchment is always ungracious, and it is constantly seen when there is any great class of reduction effected in any department, that the views advocated by the parties interested against the reduction are well backed by Members of Parliament and others connected with them. If this Committee think that the Admiralty are right in the general views they entertain, I have no doubt that their sanction and authority, or their commendation in favour of the views of the Admiralty, will be extremely useful.—In point of fact, when reforms are contemplated by the Admiralty as necessary, do they direct them, or only suggest and recommend them to the subordinate Boards?—The view I take of the conduct of the Admiralty, or any other superintending Board, would be this:—As far as possible to carry with them the concurrence of the subordinate departments, because in no other way can alterations be carried into effect in a willing spirit, and this spirit is I think very necessary for success.—Do you not think, in case of the authority of the Admiralty not appearing to be sufficient, an appeal to the Treasury would be of great use in matters of pecuniary regulation?—I conceive that an appeal to, and support from the Treasury, would certainly be of very great use.—Have you communicated with the Treasury on the subject of reforms which were intended to be made?—Within the last six months we have had those subjects at the Admiralty very much under discussion, and we found it necessary to submit our ideas to the Treasury, and I individually, and my colleagues, had communication with them, and we certainly received the strongest assurances of support from the Treasury, that at the meeting of Parliament, if necessary, they would give all the weight of their authority to enforcing such improvements as we had suggested to be expedient and proper.—In point of fact, were you not offered any assistance in the way of authority, public or otherwise, that

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the Treasury could afford you upon your requisition?—Decidedly; but it must always be borne in mind, that in many public questions the decision of one government is often set aside by the decision of a succeeding government, or by the views of the same government in another Session; that has been the case before; the scale of superannuations and the contributions to them, that were recommended and adopted by the Government of one year, were abandoned by the same Government in the same Parliament in a subsequent year." The whole of the evidence showed, the hon. Member stated, that the Admiralty had been thwarted in its wishes to retrench, and that knowing little or nothing of the arrangements of the subordinate departments, it was obliged to confide in what were called practical men, who never promoted its desire of reform when it interfered with their own views of their own interest.
On the Motion for the Speaker's leaving the Chair being again put,
Mr. E. Davenportobserved, that he understood that in his absence the hon. Member for Hertfordshire had postponed the further proceeding on the East Retford bill to Friday. Now as that was the day on which he (Mr. Davenport) had given notice of a motion on the State of the Nation, he put it to the hon. Member for Hertfordshire whether he would not postpone the proceeding with his bill to a future day.
Mr. N. Calvertsaid, he had fixed Friday because he knew that many hon. Members were anxious for the progress of the bill. He was, however, entirely in the hands of the House.
Mr. Tennysonsaid, he had been a party to fixing the measure for that day, but knowing that the still greater question of the State of the Nation occupied the public attention, he would not stand in the way of his hon. friend the Member for Shaftesbury. The hon. Member also expressed a hope, that his next effort to divide the House, with a view to transferring the franchise from East-Retford to Birmingham, would be more successful.
Mr. Westernallowed that the bill was important, but he thought that his hon. friend's motion was still more so, as the country was suffering under great distress.
The House then resolved itself into the Committee.
Sir Henry Hardingeproposed that the
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sum of 7,656 l. be granted for the expense of the Military College.
Mr. Humesaid, before he proceeded to consider the subject of that vote, he wished to call the attention of his Majesty's Government to the state of our army in India. He knew that there were letters in town giving a most alarming description of the condition of that army, as to its state of subordination; but he understood that no official information had been received. As to the vote then before the Committee, he thought, considering the state of the public feeling, it was time that the Government took into its serious consideration the propriety of reducing this establishment. He begged leave to ask, why gentlemen intending to enter the military service should not pay for their own education, when there were one hundred applicants for every commission? He noticed, too, that the Lieutenant-governor had received a pension of 800 l.; and he did not know why he, who was a military man, should not fall back on his half-pay. There was a monstrous system of giving pensions to persons who had no just claim to them, to which he would continually object. On this establishment the pensions were now 33,500 l., and he really did not know why the officers, who had been pensioned, should not receive only their half-pay.
Sir Henry Hardingewould first state why the Military College should not pay its own expenses. There were three classes of students. The first were the orphans, whose fathers had been in his Majesty's service, and they were educated gratuitously; the second class, each of whom paid 20 l. a-year, were the children of officers yet in the service; and the expense of their education was supplied by the charge on the young men of the third class, each of whom paid 150 l. Within two years, the expense of this College had been reduced from 12,000 l. to 7,000 l.; and, as that did not satisfy the hon. Member for Montrose, he must despair of satisfying him. As to the pension given to the Lieutenant-governor, that gentleman held a commission in the Artillery twenty-five years ago, and had he now been in the service, he would have been a Major-general. He had retired with the rank of a Colonel after twenty-five years' service, and had a pension of 800 l. a-year. With respect to the suggestion of the hon. Member, that the officers should fall back

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on their half-pay, that was to be the system in future.
Colonel Daviesthought, that, in the circumstances of the country, this grant was most extravagant. He doubted the utility of the education the young men received at the Military College; and if it were continued, it certainly ought to be on a more limited scale than at present.
Lord Eustonalso objected to the grant, in the state of the country, and he should feel himself called on not to support it. The present was not a time to make young soldiers; there was no want of them, and there was plenty of old officers. He did not know that he should find a seconder, but he certainly felt inclined to move that the vote be stopped altogether.
Mr. Humesaid, the noble Lord should not want a seconder. He wished to know how many of the young men educated so superiorly at the College had been given to his Majesty's service?
Sir H. Hardingesaid, nearly forty commissions had been given away in the course of the last year, to the cadets.
Mr. Humestill objected to the expense. He thought that those who desired to enter the service might educate themselves. As to the orphans, he thought they would be better taken care of by their parents (he should have said) their guardians. Still, whether advisable to educate such persons or not, he must say that the whole Estimate was too extravagant, and ought to be limited. If the noble Lord would propose that the vote should be limited to six months, he should have great satisfaction in supporting him. If the noble Lord would allow him, he would propose that the vote should be 3,800 l.; that would give the Government time to make arrangements for their putting an end to the College.
Mr. Jephsonapproved of the view taken by Mr. Hume, in which Lord Euston also professed his concurrence.
Sir George Murraythought, that the system of our military education would be very defective if the College were done away. It was not intended to educate Staff-Officers only, as was supposed, but to diffuse through the whole army a better educated description of officers, and in this respect it had answered its purpose remarkably well. It had been, he believed, infinitely beneficial.
Colonel Daviessaid, the education given at the College was very inefficient; he had
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been there, and had very soon forgotten what he had learnt, [a laugh]
Sir Henry Hardingesaid, he was sorry to hear the gallant Officer had derived so little advantage from the College, but he believed that the same result did not take place with other pupils.
Mr. Warburtoncontended that the expense was enormous, and that the forty commissions they offered a-year was a prodigious prize offered to these young men.
Colonel Dawkinsacknowledged his obligations to the College. He had derived great benefit, from his instruction there, and looked back at the time he had spent there with pleasure. He thought the College could not be dispensed with, and, though he was as anxious as any person to relieve the public distress, he would vote for the grant.
Mr. Humewas glad to hear the hon. Member had profitted so much by his education; he was only sorry that he had not paid enough for it. It was the duty of that House not to vote one shilling of the public money that could be dispensed with. It was in this light he looked at the vote the Committee was called on to give. He wished, indeed, he saw the Members present who had presented petitions complaining of distress; but though they complained they took care not to attend to vote against themselves. He was not sure that it would not be a better way to allow the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take as much as he pleased, without opposition, for opposition obtained no success. He would not give himself the trouble to oppose the votes, were it not that the people out of doors might think that nobody in the House paid any attention to their interests. He would move that the vote be diminished one-half. The hon. Member then submitted that the sum of 3,800 l. be substituted for 7,656 l.
The House then divided—for the Amendment 17, Against it 85; Majority against the Amendment 68.
The original Motion was then put and carried without a division.—The House resumed, the Chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again on Monday next.

FOREIGN CORN.
Earl Stanhopemoved for the return of Foreign Com imported since the 15th of July, 1828, with the weekly averages—Ordered.

BRITISH TIMBER.
The Marquis of Salisburymoved for a return of the quantity of Oak of British growth, purchased for the use of his Majesty's Dock-yards, with the price paid for it, since the year l809.
Earl Stanhopesaid, that if the noble Lord's object in moving for the Return, was to show that British timber had suffered a great depreciation of price, the motion was unnecessary, because the fact of the depreciation was notorious.
The Marquis of Salisburysaid, he was aware of the notoriety of the fact, but as it had been denied last night, he wished to have official proof of it.
The Return was ordered.

STATE OF THE POOR.
The Duke of Richmondgave notice, that he would move that their Lordships be summoned for Tuesday week, on which occasion he would move for the appointment of a Select Committee to take into consideration the State of the Labouring Classes of the Country. He would not state the precise words in which his motion would be framed, until he had an opportunity of consulting other noble Lords whose opinion he valued. On the present occasion, therefore, he would merely give a general notice to the effect he had stated.
Lord Teynhamobserved, that he had given notice of a motion on the subject, and he would then state that the object of that motion would be, to appoint a Select Committee to inquire into the office and duties of Overseer of the Poor. He knew that great cruelties were practised on paupers in various places, that they were shut up in pounds, and otherwise treated in a manner that was most oppressive. He wished the Committee to ascertain by what law the overseers exercised this sort of power.
The Duke of Richmondbegged to state, that in the motion which he intended to submit, he should cast no censure on the overseers of the poor

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whom he believed to be a respectable set of men, who performed their arduous; duties generally in a praiseworthy manner.
The Bishop of Bath and Wellsrose to present a Petition from the inhabitants of the town of Frome, in Somersetshire, complaining of distress. The right rev. Prelate said, that the state of misery to which the labouring part of the population was reduced, was unparalleled in the history of the country. What he should state he had seen. He did not derive his information from what he had read, but from what he had seen. He would not speak of things which he did not know to be true, but of things which he had seen with his own eyes.
—quæque ipse miserrima vidi.
In several parts of Somersetshire the persons who received relief from the poor-rates exceeded in number those who paid the rates. In the city of Bath, which was a place peculiarly favoured, being the resort of rank, affluence, and he might add, of liberality, noble efforts had been made to alleviate the condition of the poor; and yet he grieved to say, that his own eyes had beheld numbers of his fellow-men yoked together like oxen, and engaged in drawing coals from the pits in the neighbourhood. This was a sad state for Englishmen to be reduced to. It was, however, most gratifying to observe, that amidst the unexampled distress which surrounded them, the people bore their sufferings with a constancy and fortitude deserving of the highest commendation, and had not suffered themselves to be betrayed into a violation of the laws. Great praise was usually bestowed, and deservedly, on the man who had courage to strike a blow in defence of the liberties of his country; but far higher praise was due to the Christian hero who, although he saw his wife and children clamorous for bread, had resolution and fortitude enough not to attempt to procure the means of satisfying their wants by a breach of the laws of his country. He believed that the noble Duke at the head of the Government felt deeply for the situation of his countrymen. Great as was the fame which at present elevated him above his fellow-men, that fame would be incalculably augmented if he could devise the means of affording relief to the starving people. In his opinion much benefit would be effected by allotting small portions of land to the poor. He
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did not desire to convert them into small farmers, but such a provision would always be a resource for their families, and would attach them to the soil. In conclusion, he hoped that the noble Duke would do all that man could do to relieve the existing distresses. The right rev. Prelate then presented the Petition.

CORN LAWS.
Earl Stanhopepresented a Petition from Mr. John Wright, a coal and iron master, near Nottingham, praying for such a revision of the Cornlaws, as would increase the duties on foreign corn. The petitioner, observed the noble Earl, did not belong to that class of people considered favourable to the landed interest, nevertheless he was well persuaded of the impolicy of the present Corn Laws.
The prayer of the petition was, that foreign wheat should not be allowed to be imported until the average price of English wheat was 72 s. a quarter, and that even then a duty of 24 s. per quarter should be imposed on foreign wheat so imported.

SALARIES AND PENSIONS.
The Marquis of Lansdown(after stating that there was no objection, he understood, on the part of the noble Duke at the head of his Majesty's Government to the production of the returns sought) moved that "there be laid before this House an account of the Pensions granted under the 57th Geo. 3rd cap. 65.; also an account of all Salaries granted by the Acts passed the same year."—Ordered.
EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.
The noble Marquis then presented two Petitions against the renewal of the East-India Company's Charter, from Manchester and Hull. The petitioners of the latter-named town suggested that the notice which the law requires should be given to the East-India Company by Government, respecting the termination of their Charter. He had been requested to state this by the petitioners; but he supposed, as a matter of course, that due notice had been given by the Government.