Sitting of 19 February 1830

MINUTES.
The Speaker informed the House that he had received a letter from the Hanaper Office, in Dublin, enclosing a petition from Mr. Massy Dawson, which complained of the undue return of Mr. P. Grady for the County of Limerick.
Sir James Graham gave notice, that on Monday next he would move, as an Amendment to the Orders of the Day, a Resolution to consider the manner in which the office of Treasurer of the Navy had been filled up.
Mr. E. Davenport rose to correct an erroneous impression that had got abroad, relative to his motives for postponing his Motion concerning the State of the Country, which stood for Tuesday next. He would have brought his Motion forward on Wednesday, 3rd March; but as another Motion stood for that day, he should postpone it to Friday, the 5th, when he should move a Call of the House.

QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE.
Mr. Littletonrose, to present a petition involving a Question of the Privileges of that House. The petition was from a
Knights, a representation in Parliament of the landholders or landed interest of the kingdom, and by the return of such Citizens and Burgesses a representation of the trade, and of all other interests within the realm:
And whereas it has ever been considered a noble privilege which entitles the subject to a share in the Government and Legislature of the country, and such as he ought not to be denuded of by accidental or unforeseen circumstances, nor by craft and design:
And whereas when the right of voting was annexed to some tenement, house, or spot of ground where a house had stood, it was never contemplated that any number of these bur-gage-tenure estates should be purchased by one person in order to be conveyed to so many of his friends or dependants, and that thereby each should have a right to vole, and that so a command of the return of Members to serve in Parliament, and a proprietary interest therein, should be obtained:
And whereas in consequence of the departure from the spirit and meaning of the law, the election of Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses, is often attended with canvassing, solicitations, and even bribes, on the part of the candidate, and with scenes of drunkenness and corruption on the part of the electors, disgraceful to both parties, and highly detrimental to the community at large; and in other cases such elections are entirely under the command of a
728
well-known Attorney of great respectability at Birmingham, Mr. Thomas Eyre Lee; of whose professional employment the conduct of private business through the House of Commons was a branch. Mr. Lee stated, that having, in the month of November last, given notice in the newspapers of his intention to apply for a certain Bill in the next Session, he received a letter, dated Great George-street, and signed William Robert Sydney, informing him that the writer had entered into partnership with Mr. Daniel Whittle Harvey, as Parliamentary Agents; and that his practice and experience for several years gave him facilities in conducting Parliamentary business, which would be found very advantageous to his clients, independently of the alliance which he had formed with Mr. Harvey. The letter was franked by Mr. Harvey, and came under what appeared to be the common seal of the firm. The petitioner disclaimed all private or personal motives, but prayed that the House would take into its serious consideration whether the practice here disclosed, of Members possessing an interest in Bills which were in progress through that House, was not one which ought to be disallowed.
single individual, and such individual is, in many instances, a Peer of Parliament, and thus the returns of many Citizens and Burgesses to serve in the House of Commons have become the subject of sale and barter for money, whereby any foreign prince or potentate may, by the mere power of money, and in some instances actually has, purchased for his friends or agents, seats in the House of Commons of England:
And whereas all such things and doings are in direct contradiction to the spirit and meaning of the law, a disgrace and scandal to Parliament, subversive of the rights and liberties of the people, and of the just prerogative and interest of the Crown, rendering it impossible for the King to conduct the government of the country without being dependent on a system of corruption and intrigue, highly detrimental to the safety, honour, and welfare of this kingdom; and whereas the continuance of such abuses would be treason against the people and little short of treason against the King:
And whereas it is highly expedient and necessary that all such abuses should be reformed, and the Commons of England restored to their due and undoubted share in the Legislature, and also that the reformation of such long existing abuses should be brought about with all due care, and in the most rational, just, and considerate manner:
The petition was then brought up. On the Motion that it be read,
Mr. D. W. Harveysaid, he thanked the hon. Member for Staffordshire for the candid manner in which he had yesterday evening communicated to him his intention of presenting this petition. Whatever other sentiments the House might entertain respecting the letter in question, they could not consider it defective in candour and openness. As to the petition, until he heard on the authority of the House itself that professional persons engaged in that branch of the profession to which he devoted himself were to be interdicted from pursuing the most respectable part of it, if they happened to be Members of the House of Commons, he should not believe that such was the law. He admitted frankly and at once that the statement in the letter, as it respected himself, was true. If it were declared to be contrary to the law of Parliament, no one would bow more readily than himself to that decision. But the question was one of much greater importance than as it affected him individually. The consideration of it ought to be co-existent with the consideration of a very broad species of reform. Whatever principle on the subject the House might
And whereas for the accomplishment of the great ends and important objects of this Act, it is expedient that a Committee of the House of Commons be forthwith appointed in the manner, and with the powers, hereinafter mentioned:
Be it therefore enacted by the King's Most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same,
That immediately after the passing of this Act, and in every subsequent Session within ten days after the assembling of Parliament for the despatch of business, a Committee shall be appointed by ballot or lot in the usual manner, consisting of twenty-one Members of the Commons' House of Parliament, with full power to do all things required by this Act, and the said Committee shall be called the Reform Committee, and shall retain its power till the prorogation of the Parliament in which it shall have been appointed:
That it shall be the duty of this Committee, in the first place, to order by any letter or paper writing signed by their Chairman, the Sheriffs of the different Counties, or the Returning Officer of every City and Borough in the United Kingdom, to report to the said Committee the number of Electors for the choosing of Members to sit in the House of Commons for the said City or Borough, dis-
730
think proper to recognise, no one would more cordially concur in the recognition than himself. If it should be determined that no person being a Member of a Committee of that House should have the remotest shade of interest in the business under the consideration of that Committee, in such a determination he would heartily coincide; and he was persuaded, that it would be very satisfactory to the country thus to show that no Member of a Committee could be exposed to any temptation, direct or indirect, to swerve from the line of his public duty. He apprehended, however, that no hon. Member was prepared to contend that the Committees of that House were so constituted; and he was glad the petition came when nothing had yet been done in private Committees, and, therefore, early enough to admit of the establishment of the principle which he had described; for he would defy any one to say of him that he had taken a part in any Committee, in the business before which he had the tithe of a farthing of interest. Could every Member of a Committee say as much? Men in his branch of the profession had frequently had seats in that House, continuing their practice. The late Mr. Smith, Solicitor for the
tinguishing the number of resident Electors from the number of non-resident Electors, and stating the nature of the rights of voting in such City or Borough; and if necessary the said Committee shall call the said Officer before them, together with all books or papers in his possession relating to the same, and in like manner shall call before them and examine upon oath the said Officers and any other person or persons having, or claiming to have, any interest in the Election of the said Members, or any knowledge concerning the same.
And whereas, certain Corporations or Corporate Bodies do possess the right of franchise by Charter, and do by virtue of the King's Writ, return Members to serve in the Commons' House of Parliament; and whereas such Corporations or Corporate Bodies were, at the time of granting such Charters and Rights of Enfranchisement, composed of the most respectable persons resident in the towns or places to which such Corporations or Corporate Bodies belong, and the members of such Corporations or Corporate Bodies were for the most part chosen or elected into office by the Inhabitants of such towns or places, out of the most discreet and respectable of the townsmen or inhabitants of such towns or places: And whereas, by the lapse of time and from other causes, many of such towns and places have fallen into decay, and abuses have taken place in the mode of election of such

731
Treasury, was a Member of that House. Mr. Jones, formerly Solicitor to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, was a Member of that House. Would any one say that they had no right to pursue their general practice? If so, the same might be said of the Attorney and Solicitor-General. The profits of the Attorney and Solicitor-General, as compared with the profits of a member of his branch of the profession, were exceedingly great. Having been paid for drawing a bill, they nevertheless felt no hesitation in afterwards coming down to the House, and deliberating and dividing upon it. If it should be established as a principle that no Member of that House could be a Member of a Committee on a matter in which he had the remotest interest, that principle the public and the House would perfectly understand. He, for one, should rejoice to see it established, that when a Member entered a Committee room, he should swear that he had no interest, direct or indirect, in the matter under the consideration of that Committee. He wished the House to understand, however, that the petition which had been presented by the hon. Member for Staffordshire was not, in fact, the petition of Mr. Eyre Lee, but the
Corporations or Corporate Bodies, so that in some cases they have been, and now are elected from persons not resident in or connected with the towns or places to which the said Corporations or Corporate Bodies belong; and in other cases they are elected by each other, that is to say, by the Corporation or Corporate Body itself, the inhabitants or citizens of such towns or places having no voice or influence in such elections:
And whereas, it is an undoubted and established principle that all Charters of Franchise may be forfeited by mis-user or non-user:
And whereas it never was contemplated by the law that any City or Borough that had fallen into decay, and was unable to bear the burthen of sending Members to the House of Commons, and of paying them the wages of their attendance, should by any art, decree, or contrivance, fall into the power of a few persons or of a single individual to cause the return of a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, and therefore no method is pointed out by the law of putting an end to such abuse, except upon the petition of the said City or Borough, to be relieved of the burthen of sending Members to Parliament:
And whereas the first Writs de expensis militum, &c. are coeval with the King's first Writs of summons to elect and send Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses to Parliament:
And whereas the exact amount, of such
732
petition of the officers of that House; for the course which Mr. Sydney was pursuing was unfavourable to their enormous emoluments. He had a right to complain of the enormous expense attending the soliciting of Bills in Parliament. Economy was much talked of, but what he wanted to see was practical economy; and he thought that professional man deserved well of his country who endeavoured to diminish the expense in question. What was the object of the letter of which the petition complained? To inform solicitors that, they need not have Parliamentary agents, who would put them to an expense of 500 l. 600 l., and 700 l., and as he had known in some cases 1,000 l.; but that the business would be transacted at the same rate as ordinary law proceedings. Thus, to propose a saving of time and money was, in his opinion, highly laudable, and he would not shrink from his part of the responsibility attached to the proposition. At the same time, he was quite ready to submit to the opinion of the House if they determined that no Member of that House should have any connection or interest of that nature, and if they applied the principle in all cases rigidly, sternly, and satisfactorily. But he was sure the House
wages have been fixed by Act of Parliament, and ought to be paid according to the difference and in the value of money at the present day:
And whereas from the most ancient times such qualifications have been required on the part of those who are to elect the said Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses, as should secure, as far as human wisdom could secure, the independent exercise of such important rights, and therefore the right of voting for Citizens and Burgesses, where there was no charter or custom to the contrary, was limited to all Householders within the same, paying scot and lot,
Be it therefore further enacted, that as soon as the said Committee shall have ascertained the fact that any city or borough shall have fallen into decay, and ceased to be such populous and wealthy place, as, according to this Act was originally intended to bear the burthen of sending a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, or that such city or borough shall by any means have fallen into a state that the return of a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, is become a proprietary interest, or is absolutely in the power and at the command of any one individual, or of a few individuals, whether sole or corporate, or that such return at the last election was obtained by means of money given to the electors, or that the electors of such city or borough are

733
would not apply to any individual a restriction, however wholesome it might be considered, from which the Members at large were exempt. To whatever decision, however, the House might come upon the subject, he should cheerfully submit. [hear, hear]
Mr. Littletongave great credit to the hon. Gentleman for the candour and frankness with which he had expressed himself. He had not determined whether to move the reference of the Petition to a Select Committee, or to the Committee of Privileges. At present he would merely move that the Petition be printed.
Mr. Harveyobserved, that he had omitted to mention that before he had taken the step which he had adopted, he had taken the advice of a very eminent pleader, who was a Member of a Committee of which he was also a Member. That Gentleman had reminded him of the instance of Sir James Graham. The Committee on which they were sitting was a Gas-Light Committee; the hon. Member, when he (Mr. Harvey) asked him if he thought there would be any objection to the step which he contemplated, on the ground that a Mem-
so reduced in point of wealth and number, that they could not, and ought not, to bear the burthen of sending a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, and to pay the wages of attendance according to the value of money at the present day, or that any corporation of any city or borough to which a Charter has been granted to send a Member or Members to serve in Parliament have not been elected by the Burgesses at large, but elected by themselves or in any other manner, whereby the city or borough is deprived of the power of electing a Member or Members to serve in Parliament: in all or any of such cases, it shall be the duty of the Chairman of the said Committee to report such fact to the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and such report shall be deemed and taken to be the petition of the city or borough to which it relates, to be relieved of the burthen of sending a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, or where there has been a franchise by Charter to such city or borough, granted by the Crown or by Parliament, such report shall be deemed and taken to be a forfeiture of such franchise upon the ground of misuser, and it shall be the duty of such Secretary of State to announce in the Gazette that under and by virtue of this Act, such city or borough has ceased to send a Member of Members to serve in Parliament.
And it shall be the duty of the said Committee to begin making such reports as are
734
ber ought not to have an interest in any Parliamentary proceeding, bade him look round them, and he would see that there were several Members who had shares to a large amount in the undertaking to which the Bill under consideration related. For himself, he had never attempted to obtain any undue influence in Committees of that House; and his Parliamentary conduct had been, and would continue to be, as independent as that of any man in the House. He believed that even the hon. Member for Staffordshire himself had a considerable interest in a Canal, the Bill respecting which was in a Committee to which that hon. Member belonged. For himself he repeated, that he never had had an interest of that kind to the amount of six-and-eight pence. [a laugh]
Mr. Littletonsaid, that the hon. Member was mistaken in supposing that he had any interest in the Coventry Canal. In other Canal Bills, however, he had certainly had an interest.
The Petition was then ordered to be printed.

COMMUTATION OF SENTENCES.
Mr. Stanleybegged to call the attention of
herein before-mentioned in respect of those boroughs where the right of voting depends upon estates held by burgage tenure, and then in respect of those cities or boroughs where there are the fewest number of electors, and to proceed in such order throughout the whole of the cities and boroughs in the United Kingdom that send a Member or Members to serve in Parliament.
And as soon as it shall be declared in the Gazette that any city or cities, borough or boroughs, or any cinque port or other town that now sends a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, has ceased to send a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, it shall be the duty of the said Committee to select, and report to the said Secretary of State, that they have selected such populous, unrepresented, or inadequately represented town or place, including such hundreds, districts, or parishes surrounding such town or place as the said Committee shall think proper to point out, in order to fulfil the object and intentions of this Act, so that the said electors shall be fully equal to bear the burthen of paying a Member or Members the wages of attendance according to the value of money at the present day, and that there shall be no immediate danger of the franchise being abused by misuser or non-user. And it shall be the duty of the said Committee to point out in such report who shall be the

735
the House and the right hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department to a Petition, which was of no inconsiderable importance, although it proceeded from a single individual, and that individual in a very unfortunate situation. As far as he was aware, the case was altogether new. The circumstances were these:—In 1824, the Petitioner was convicted under what is called Lord Ellenborough's Act, of stabbing with intention to commit murder. The Judge before whom he was tried accordingly ordered sentence of death to be recorded. Afterwards, however, being impressed with the notion that the prisoner, at the time of committing the offence, was not sane, he commuted the punishment to one which, as far as he (Mr. Stanley) was informed, was altogether new, and in the strictest sense of the expression, illegal. He had consulted many professional men on the subject, and they had uniformly declared that it was not conformable to the practice of the law nor consistent with the Constitution, for the Judge to commute the sentence of death to a sentence of imprisonment for the prisoner's natural life, accompanied with hard labour. If the case of the prisoner's sanity had been
returning officer or officers of such town or place.
And be it further enacted, that in all such cases the right of voting shall be, and is hereby declared to be, in all the inhabitant householders assessed to any rate or tax, parochial or Parliamentary, within such town or place, or within such hundreds, districts, or parishes surrounding the same; and all such electors shall be assessed by the returning officer or officers thereof, for the payment of such wages as aforesaid, and of all expenses attending the return of a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, according to the value of the houses inhabited by such electors.
And it shall be the duty of the said Secretary of State upon the receipt of such report from the said Committee to cause the same to be forthwith published in the Gazette, and to transmit a copy thereof to the Lord High Chancellor of England, to the Speaker of the House of Commons, and to the returning officer or officers of such town or place, with directions forthwith to make the same as public as possible therein: and such report so made by the said Committee to the said Secretary of State according to the directions of this Act, shall be deemed and considered to be the Charter of enfranchisement of such city, borough, town, or place as shall be therein mentioned, for the purpose of sending a Member or Members to serve in Parliament.
736
put to the Jury and they had determined that at the time of committing the offence he was not sane, the prisoner would then have been detained in custody until his Majesty's pleasure respecting him was known. But that was not put to the Jury, and by their verdict of guilty they established the prisoner's sanity. The proceeding was exclusively that of the Judge, whose motive no man could for an instant question—for that Judge, was Mr. Justice Bailey; than whom a more humane man never sat upon the bench [hear, hear]. He should be glad, however, to know if the learned Judge was justified in the course which he had adopted? The Petitioner had now been five years in prison, although frequent applications had been made to the right hon. Gentleman opposite by respectable individuals, by the Grand Jury, and he believed by the Judge himself, for a remission of his punishment. It was well known that the right hon. Gentleman was always ready to attend to applications of that nature; but the circumstances in which he was placed with respect to the subject were so full of difficulty, that it had been thought desirable that the Petitioner should lay his case before the House. The difficulty
And it shall be the duty of the Lord High Chancellor of England, in the event of a new Parliament, and of the Speaker of the House of Commons, while Parliament is sitting, to cause such writs to be sent to the Sheriffs of every county in which such town or place shall be situated, for the return of a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, as shall be in conformity with the provisions of this Act.
And it is hereby enacted, that the wages of attendance, as aforesaid, shall be well and truly paid to the said Member or Members, and that any agreement or understanding to the contrary shall render void the election of any Member that shall have entered into the same; and the amount of such wages, according to the present value of money, shall be deemed, and taken to be, after the rate of a day for every Member of any city, borough, town, or place, and a day for every Member of any county; and the same shall be assessed upon the electors, according to the value of the houses they inhabit, or of the lands, tenements, or hereditaments, which afford the right of voting.
And be it further enacted, that as soon as the said Committee shall have proceeded in manner as aforesaid, to have enfranchised such populous unrepresented, or inadequately represented cities, boroughs, or towns throughout the United Kingdom, in place of those that

737
was this;—the sentence having been once commuted, could not again be commuted for transportation; for if the prisoner were to return from transportation without leave, he could not be punished for that act. On the other hand, to the liberation of the prisoner, the prosecutor would not consent, conceiving that in that case his own life would not be safe; and thus his fate mainly depended on the opinion of one individual, and that individual his prosecutor. It was undoubtedly a case of hardship. He should be glad to be informed if there were no means of affording the Petitioner relief, either by a pardon, conditional on his immediately leaving the country, or by some other mode which would insure his going abroad. He was a young man not above three or four-and-thirty; and his anxiety to avoid passing his whole life within the walls of a prison was by no means surprising. He moved for leave to bring up the Petition.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that he believed the hon. Member had correctly stated all the facts of the case, as far as the Petitioner was concerned. The Petitioner, whose name was Wild, was capitally convicted in the year 1824, under
shall have been thus declared to have ceased to send Members to serve in Parliament, it shall be the duty of the said Committee, if any number of seats remain unfilled-up, as aforesaid, to select such counties in Scotland as are at present subject to alternate representation only, and afterwards such other counties in the United Kingdom as the said Committee shall think stand most in need of one or more additional Members, and thereupon to make their report to the said Secretary of State; and it shall be the duty of the said Secretary forthwith to publish the same in the Gazette, and to cause copies thereof to be sent to the Lord High Chancellor of England, the Speaker of the House of Commons, and the Sheriffs of the said counties for the purposes aforesaid; provided always, that before the said Committee shall thus add to the representation of any of the counties in the United Kingdom, save and except to those counties in Scotland, now unrepresented as aforesaid, it shall be the duty of the said Committee to select such hundreds, parishes, and districts, surrounding such cities or boroughs where the inhabitant householders now have the right of voting, and which city or borough shall not fall within any of the reasons above-mentioned, to justify the said Committee, according to the meaning and intention of this Act, in making any report concerning the same to the said Secretary of State, so that the inhabitant householders in
738
Lord Ellenborough's Act, of stabbing his uncle, in whose employment he was. He (Mr. Peel) would purposely abstain from detailing the evidence on which the Petitioner had been convicted, in order that he might not create a prejudice against him. Sentence of death having been recorded against the prisoner, the Judge before whom he was tried afterwards entertained some doubt whether he was sane at the time of the commission of the offence. That Judge, as the hon. Gentleman had stated, was Mr. Justice Bailey, whose complete knowledge of the law, and whose great humanity in the administration of it, every one must acknowledge. [hear, hear] Under the influence of the doubt which he had described, Mr. Justice Bailey determined not to leave the Petitioner for execution, but commuted the punishment to imprisonment for life with hard labour. The hon. Member said that was illegal. He (Mr. Peel) did not think that its perfect legality could be questioned. He entertained this conviction because he had received eight or tea letters on the subject from Mr. Justice Bailey himself; and he was sure that if the learned Judge had entertained any doubt of the legality of his proceeding, he
the said hundreds, parishes, and districts, assessed to any rate or tax, parochial or parliamentary, shall, together with the present electors in such city or borough, be fully equal to bear the burthen of paying the' wages of attendance as aforesaid; and upon such selection to report the same to the said Secretary of State; and it shall be the duty of the said Secretary forthwith to publish the same in the Gazette, and transmit copies thereof as aforesaid, and for the like purposes.
And it is hereby declared, that all such inhabitant householders shall be electors at the next, and at all future elections for the said city or borough, and shall be assessed accordingly, in manner aforesaid.
And be it further enacted, that if, notwithstanding the obvious intent and meaning of this Act, to confer upon every householder as aforesaid, in the United Kingdom, the right of voting for a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, any such householder shall find himself not included in any of the hundreds, parishes, or districts, selected in any case by the said Committee as aforesaid, it shall be in the power of such householder to vote at the next and all future elections for a Member or Members to serve in Parliament in the city, borough, town, or place, that shall happen to be the nearest to the residence of such householder, provided he shall not be entitled to vote for the county at large, and that before

739
would have conferred with the other Judges on the subject, and would have communicated the result of that conference. Capital sentence having been passed upon the Petitioner, he (Mr. Peel) could not understand why to commute that punishment for imprisonment for life was illegal. He had submitted the case to the Law Officers of the Crown; and they entertained no doubt of the legality of the commutation of the punishment of death for any punishment of less severity. In treating of the general doctrine of pardons, it was observed by Blackstone, "A pardon may also be conditional; that is, the King may extend his mercy upon what, terms he pleases; and may annex to his bounty a condition either precedent or subsequent, on the performance whereof the validity of the pardon will depend; and this by the common law." He believed, therefore, that the sentence was a perfectly legal one. He had referred the whole of the facts to the hon. and learned Gentleman who was then the Attorney General and his learned colleague, and they never had a doubt of the legality of the proceeding. But they stated, that after a Judge had commuted a punishment, it
tendering his vote, he shall have given notice in writing that he is ready and willing to be assessed as aforesaid, and such notice shall be given to the returning officer of such city, borough, town, or place:
And whereas, when the right of voting for Knights or Members for counties to serve in Parliament was limited to freeholders, leaseholds for long terms of years were unknown, and copyholders were absolutely dependant on the will of their lords:
And whereas, in that part of the united kingdom called Scotland, a system has crept in of separating the freehold or superiority from the property, whereby voters have been created who may possess no land whatever within the county, and moreover much landed property is now held by what is called feu-right for long terms of years, and quite independent of the will of the Lords or superiors; and all such property, like the said leaseholds and copyholds in England, is entirely unrepresented, contrary to the fundamental principles of the Constitution:
And whereas, many freeholders, whose lands, tenements, or hereditaments happen to be situate in any city, borough, or other place, which is a county of itself, may be unrepresented:
Be it therefore further enacted, that all such freeholders last above mentioned shall he entitled to rote at the next, and all subsequent
740
was not in the power of a Secretary of State to make a further commutation. The hard labour, however, had been remitted. A word on general cases of this kind.—No situation could be more painful than that of a man acquitted of a crime on the ground of his insanity; and the present was a case similar in its character. If so acquitted, he still became a prisoner for life. He regretted to say, that many unhappy persons were in that condition. Now a man might be acquitted of murder, or some other capital offence, on the ground of his being insane at the time, and might be imprisoned in consequence; but he might afterwards become perfectly sane, and apply for his discharge. The Secretary of State had then a very painful duty to perform; a duty which required the exercise of much caution. He remembered the case of a woman tried for arson, and acquitted on the ground of insanity, who was released from confinement by his predecessor in office, on its appearing that she had become perfectly sane. The first thing however that she did after her liberation, was to return to the place where she had committed the offence for which she had been tried, and in the most extraordinary and deliberate
elections, for the county at large, within which such city, borough, town, or other place, shall be situate, the same as if their lands, tenements, or hereditaments, were situate in the said county, and that all persons who shall hold lands, tenements, or hereditaments, by copy of Court Roll, or under and by virtue of any leases, or feu-rights for ninety-nine years, or for any other term of years, provided such leases or feu-rights for such other term of years shall be renewable from time to time for ever at the will of the leasee or feuar, or by virtue of any lease or feu-right for any term of years, whereof not less than twenty-one shall be to come and unexpired at the time of such persons tendering their votes, shall be entitled to vote at the next and at all subsequent elections for a Member or Members to serve in Parliament for that county within which such lands or hereditaments are respectively situated in the same manner as if such persons had a freehold estate in such lands, tenements, or hereditaments.
And it is hereby declared, that the right of voting in any county for a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, shall in no case whatever be hereafter created, by any such contrivances of separating the superiority from the properly, nor shall such right be hereafter exercised by any person not in possession of the property, as well as the superiority; but all persons now in possession of such rights of

741
manner again set fire to the same premises. Another, who had been acquitted of murder on the ground of insanity, and afterwards liberated when it was presumed that he had become sane, had been detected in a contrivance to murder three persons. A person in confinement might appear perfectly in the possession of his senses; but when he returned into the world, and was exposed to all the irritation resulting from mixing in society, his insanity might return, as frequently happened. In his description of his own case, the Petitioner stated that he had formerly been wounded in the head, and that when he took a little liquor he did not know what he was doing. Some caution was necessary before such a person was again let loose upon society. He (Mr. Peel) had applied to the prosecutor for his consent to the liberation of the prisoner; but the answer was, that he had a wife and nine children, and that he should not consider his life safe if the prisoner were released. He (Mr. Peel) would most willingly have commuted the imprisonment for transportation for life, had such a commutation been legal, but having consulted the Law Officers on the subject, they decided that he had no authority to do so. He had
voting as arise from the superiority alone, distinct from the property, shall be entitled to vote at the next and at all subsequent elections for the city, borough, town, or place, that shall be nearest to the place of residence of such persons, provided such notice shall be given to the returning officer thereof in respect of assessment, as is hereinbefore mentioned.
And be it further enacted, that no Burgess, or other person now having a right to vote in any city, borough, or place, for any Member or Members to serve in Parliament, shall again be allowed to exercise such right, unless he be resident within the same; and as it is not the intention of this Act to disfranchise any person whatever, it is hereby declared, that all such non-resident Burgesses, shall be entitled to vote at the next and all subsequent elections for the city, borough, town, or place, that shall be nearest to the place of resilience of such persons, provided such notice shall be given to the returning officer thereof, in respect of assessment, as is hereinbefore mentioned.
And whereas, it is expedient to prevent the present enormous expense often attending elections both in towns and counties; be it therefore further enacted, that it shall be the duty of the said Committee to make such regulations, as to counties, respecting the places in each county at which the poll, if demanded, shall be adjourned after the two
742
intimated to the prisoner, that although he could not commute his sentence, yet that if he could obtain ample security that the prisoner would immediately embark for New South Wales, and would remain there, he would consent to such an arrangement.
Sir C. Wetherellconfirmed the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman. The case had been referred to him officially when he was Attorney General, and he had given it as his opinion that a sentence of death might be commuted for perpetual imprisonment; but that any second commutation would be illegal.
Colonel Daviessaid, that this individual had been wounded in the head, and when in liquor he was insane; as the persons in New South Wales had an equal value for their lives as the people of England, it was as absurd to allow the prisoner to go free in one country as in the other.
Mr. Peelsaid, that no man was in any danger from the prisoner, except an individual against whom he entertained some, particular feelings of revenge. The House, he trusted, would pause before they asked for papers in a matter so exclusively belonging to the prerogatives of the Crown.
Mr. Stanleyread a part of the Petition;
first days of the election; and as to large and populous towns, respecting the manner in which the numbers of the electors in each town may be increased and apportioned, or such other regulations as the said Committee may think proper for the sake of putting an end to all great expenses, and of rendering the right of voting as convenient and as efficient as possible. And such regulations shall be reported to the Secretary of State, to be pub-listed in the Gazette, and transmitted to the Sheriffs of the said counties, and returning officer of the said towns, as aforesaid.
And be it further enacted, that an Act passed in the 9th year of his present Majesty, entitled "An Act to regulate the mode of taking the poll at the election of Members to serve in Parliament for cities, boroughs, and ports in England and Wales, and all other Acts whereby the expense of erecting booths or polling places for the election of any Member or Members to serve in Parliament, is put upon the candidate, or on the person putting such candidate in nomination, are hereby repealed.
And whereas, by repealing a modern Act of Parliament, namely, the 1st of Geo. I. commonly called the Septennial Bill, and by the repeal of another Act still more modern, namely 14th George III. c. 58, which repealed the wise enactments of the 23rd Hen. VI. c. 14, and the 1st of Hen, V. requiring the electors

743
and after an explanation from Mr. Peel, it was ordered to lie on the Table.

WAYS AND MEANS.
The House, upon the Motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House upon the Ways and Means.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthen moved—first, "That, in order to make good the Supply voted to his Majesty, the sum of 2,500,000 l. now remaining in the Exchequer over and above the expenditure for 1829, should be applied to the service of the year 1830;" and, secondly, "That, in order to make good the said Supply, a sum of 4,000,000 l. should be applied out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year 1830."
The Motions were passed, and the Report was ordered to be received on Monday next.

SUPPLY—REDUCTIONS.
The order of the day for a Committee of the whole House to consider further of the Supply having been read,
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, in moving that the Speaker do leave the Chair, in order to enable the House to go
and the elected to be resident within their respective counties., cities, and boroughs, the purity of representation would be greatly increased, and those laws restored which ought never to have been repealed.
Be it therefore further enacted, that from and after the expiration of the present Session of Parliament, the said Act made in the first year of the reign of his late Majesty, King George the First, entitled, "An Act for enlarging the time of continuance of Parliaments appointed by an Act made in the sixth year of the reign of King William and Queen Mary," and also the said Act made in the fourteenth year of the reign of his late Majesty George the Third, entitled, "An Act for repealing an Act made in the first year of the reign of King Henry the Fifth, so much of several Acts of the eighth, tenth, or twenty-third years of King Henry the Sixth, as relates to the residence of persons to be elected Members to serve in Parliament, or of the persons by whom they are chosen," shall be, and the same are hereby wholly repealed and declared to be null and void to all intents and purposes whatsoever, as if the said Acts had never been had or made. Provided always, that whenever any city, borough, or port is now entitled by Charter to choose from themselves and others, a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, it shall be the duty of the said Committee, notwithstanding any thing
744
into the consideration of the Army Estimates, and the reductions which his Majesty's Government were enabled to propose in that branch of the Public Expenditure, in the fulfilment of a pledge which he had offered to the House some nights ago, he should avail himself of that opportunity to state the total reductions which, according to an expressed intention, Government had made in the Estimates now about to be submitted to the Committee,—a statement which it was necessary to make upon this occasion, in order that before hon. Gentlemen entered into a Committee of Supply, they might have before them, in a connected shape, the whole of the reductions adopted in the various estimates of Public Expenditure for the current year. The course which he was now about to pursue differed, in a slight degree, from the former practice upon like occasions, but was not attended by any other difficulties beyond this,—that it imposed upon him the necessity of soliciting the indulgence of the House to this extent,—namely, that if on the future presentation of the estimates it should be found that a small degree of difference existed between their actual amount and their estimated amount, according to his
contained in this Act, by their report as aforesaid, to confirm the said right of choosing from others to such city, borough, or port, or to transfer such right to such other town as they may select to fill up the place of such city, borough, or port, according to the directions of this Act. And it is hereby declared that the fact of any such resident inhabitant of any city, borough, or place, being elected to serve in Parliament, shall be held to make such inhabitant free of such city, borough, or place, for the purpose of satisfying the said Act passed in the first year of King Henry the Third, hereinbefore mentioned.
And whereas, from the time of the reign of King Henry the Third, to the ninth year of the reign of Queen Anne, there was no law to prevent such Citizens and Burgesses from sitting in Parliament as might not be in possession of freehold or copyhold estates of the annual value of three hundred pounds:
And whereas it is expedient that the laws of England touching the representation of the Commons of England, should be restored to the state in which they stood for so many hundred years; and that cities and boroughs should not be bound down to make choice of landed men, inasmuch as such landed men may not be always found in the said cities and boroughs, and therefore the electors thereof should be at liberty to elect such persons among them as have the same interests, know-

745
present statement, the House would bear in mind that, up to the very moment of presenting them, the several branches of expenditure with which they were connected still continued susceptible of inquiry and amendment, and that hence, possibly, without the least intention upon his part of misleading or deluding the Legislature, a slight variation might occur between their actual and estimated amount. However this might turn out, he undertook to say, that whatever variation might appear in the Estimates, the total reduction would not be less than that at which he should state it; [hear] for his principle and practice on this, as upon every other occasion, were, that as he did not attempt to exaggerate the difficulties of the country, so he refrained from exaggerating the prospects of relief held out by the reductions upon the Estimates which he was prepared to state to the House, so as to enable hon. Gentlemen to see clearly the intention of his Majesty's Government. Before he entered upon his task, he might as well observe, that it was one which was not likely to occupy any very considerable portion of the time of the House in its performance. He should wholly abstain from any reference to the particular details
ledge, and feelings as themselves: and whereas, by an Act passed in the 12th and 13th year of the reign of his Majesty King William 3rd, entitled "An Act for the further limitation of the Crown, and the better securing the rights and liberties of the subject," it was among other things enacted "That no person who has an office or place of profit under the King, or receives a pension from the Crown, shall be capable of serving in the House of Commons," and by the same Act it was solemnly declared that the laws of England are the birthright of the people thereof:"
And whereas this wise provision for the better securing the rights and liberties of the people, has been entirely defeated by an Act passed in the 6th year of the reign of her late Majesty Queen Anne,
Be it therefore further enacted, that so much of the Act passed in the ninth year of the reign of Queen Anne entitled "An Act for securing the freedom of Parliaments by the farther qualifying the Members to sit in the House of Commons," as renders it necessary for every citizen or burgess to have an estate of freehold or copyhold of the annual value of 300 l. to sit in Parliament is hereby repealed, together with all oaths and other regulations affecting such qualification in any subsequent Act or Acts, and particularly those contained in an Act passed in the thirty-third year of his Majesty King George 2nd, entitled "An Act to enforce
746
and circumstances of each estimate, or to the reasons which influenced his Majesty's Government in arranging their precise amount, because these were topics that would be fitter for the consideration of Gentlemen when they came to the several votes upon them; and because he felt that those reasons applied with peculiar force to the Estimates that had been prepared by his right hon. friend near him, whose duty it was to submit the details of them to the House, and, in doing so, to explain the principle upon which Government had proceeded in framing them. But he had one or two preliminary observations to make before stating the plain and naked facts which he should have to lay before the House.
In the first place he felt extremely anxious that in judging of the extent of the reductions in the national establishments which it was the object of his Majesty's Government to make, the House would constantly bear in mind the precise amount of expenditure upon which those reductions were to be made; and, further, that these were not reductions on estimates framed upon a plainly and admittedly extravagant scale of expenditure of preceding years; that they were not reductions now
and render more effectual the Laws relating to the qualification of Members to sit in the House of Commons," and all those contained in an Act passed in the fifty-ninth year of his late Majesty King George 3rd, entitled "An Act for further regulating the qualification of Members to serve in the United Parliament of Great Britain and Ireland;" and also that so much of the Act passed in the 6th year of the reign of Queen Anne, entitled "An Act for the security of her Majesty's person and Government, and of the succession to the Crown of Great Britain in the Protestant line," as enables any person or persons accepting offices or places of profit under the King to be re-elected, is hereby repealed; and it is declared that the said enactment in the Act passed in the 12th and 13th year of the reign of King William 3rd, was meant to extend to all offices or places of profit under the King that then existed, or that should thereafter exist, and the said enactment is hereby extended to the same accordingly.
And whereas it is expedient that no modern Act touching the freedom of election or the eligibility of Members to serve in Parliament should be suffered to disgrace the Statute-book, if the same shall have been made in any particular case, and from personal motives towards any individual, and particularly where the rights and interests of a large and learned body of men have been thereby improperly affected:

747
for the first time brought forward after years of lavish and unnecessary expenditure, but, on the contrary, that they were submitted to Parliament after successive periods of reduction, after repeated retrenchments, and after close examination and inquiry. In corroboration of this statement he might observe that the Estimates for the year 1829 were less by 200,000 l. than those of the year preceding; and that the Estimates of 1828 were less than those of the year before by about 500,000 l.; making in the two last years a reduction of nearly 700,000 l. upon these Estimates. There was another observation which he was desirous of addressing to the House upon this subject; that was, that in forming an opinion of the value and amount of the reductions, hon. Gentlemen should bear in mind that they must not consider them in reference to the whole amount of the Estimates for the maintenance of our establishments, Army, Navy, &c., which were in the last year 17,600,000 l.; for if the House were to imagine that to be the sum on which the whole of the reductions were made, it would come to a very erroneous conclusion on the subject of the proportion and relative value existing between the reductions and that portion of
And whereas An Act passed in the forty-first year of his late Majesty King George 3rd, entitled, "An Act to remove all doubts respecting the eligibility of persons in holy orders to sit in the House of Commons," was passed for a particular case, against a single individual, and does affect the rights of a large and learned body of men, and by its then ex post facto operation against the said individual, and all others who had taken holy orders, was and is a disgrace to the Statute-book,
Be it therefore further enacted, that the said Act shall be cancelled and taken off the file and records of the Statute Book, or otherwise defaced and obliterated that the same may not be visible in after ages, and the said Act is hereby wholly repealed and declared to be null and void to all intents and purposes.
And whereas it is expedient and highly necessary that effectual means should be taken to secure the due attendance of the Members of the said Committee: Be it therefore further enacted, that not less than fifteen Members of the said Committee shall always be present at each sitting, and that the Chair shall be taken in succession, that all the expenses of witnesses; and all other expenses necessary for the carrying this Act into full execution, shall be paid in the same manner as in all other parliamentary inquiries; that in no case shall the time of the said Committee be occupied in hearing counsel, nor shall any unnecessary
748
our expenditure with which it was in the power of Government to deal in making them. Of that sum of 17,600,000 l. a great part was expenditure on account of services long gone by, and not on account of present services; and the claim for payments of this nature came rather in the form of a demand on the honour and good faith of the country than as a matter connected with existing or future exigencies, which the House might regulate according to its pleasure under the dictates of expediency. The country could not get rid of such demands without a direct breach of honour and good faith towards the parties, and without departing from that strict sense of national justice which always distinguished the proceedings of the House of Commons. If, then, we deducted from the 17,600,000 l. which constituted the amount of the Estimates for the preceding year, that portion of the expenditure which was caused by the satisfaction of the claims alluded to, we should leave a sum of little more than 12,000,000 l., upon and in reference to which, the reductions of the present year could fairly be calculated. Having made these preliminary observations, he should proceed to state the several Estimates in the details of which
delay take place; and upon complaint of any Member of the House of Commons, it shall be the duty of the Speaker to give such directions under his hand, respecting the sittings of the said Committee, and of the attendance of the Members thereof, as shall secure the due execution of this Act.
And be it further enacted, that it shall be the duty of the said Committee to direct how and by what persons the assessments herein before-mentioned may most conveniently be raised and levied on the electors, and how all other things necessary to give effect to this Act are to be done and executed, and to report the same to the said Secretary of State, and it shall be the duty of the said Secretary of State to give notice of the same to the proper authorities, and to see that all the directions transmitted to him by the said Committee are duly executed and performed.
And be it further enacted, that it shall be in the power of the said Committee to send for and examine upon oath such witnesses as they may think proper, and that all the Members of the said Committee shall themselves take the following Oath:—
"I do solemnly promise and swear, that laying aside all private interests or motives, I will, to the best of my judgment, faithfully execute all the provisions of the Act under which I have been appointed a Member of the Reform Committee, according to the plan and

749
the reductions had been practically made; assuring the House that the gross reduction, as would appear upon the face of it, was the result of continued, anxious, and most mature consideration upon the part of his Majesty's Government, entered into with the sincere desire of making every diminution in the public expenditure which was compatible with the safety of the country and the maintenance of the establishments necessary to the attainment of that object. The first Estimate he should mention was that which formed the subject of that evening's discussion, and from which, as the House was already aware from the papers presented a few nights ago by his right hon. friend the Secretary at War, a reduction had been made of about 213,000 l. as compared with the expenditure of the preceding year. The amount of the Army Estimates for 1829 was, in round numbers, 6,300,000 l.; the amount of the Estimates for the present year being (also in round numbers) 6,100,000 l. Upon this head, there was a saving of about 213,000 l. The Army Extraordinaries next presented themselves to his attention; and upon them it had been found possible, by strict watchfulness and careful superintendence, which were the truest and most effectual modes of effecting safe and salutary reductions, to secure a diminution of
obvious meaning of the said Act, as set forth in the preamble and enactments of the same, and if it shall appear to me that any improvement can be made in the said Act for the better fulfilling the clear intentions of the Legislature as therein expressed, I will not fail to propose that such improvement shall be reported to the House of Commons, or to vote for it if proposed by others, and that in a matter of such importance, as restoring to the House of Commons the perfect confidence of the nation, and securing for ever the rights and liberties of the people, I will consider it ray duty to be regular and punctual in my attendance' on the said Committee, sickness or any other unavoidable cause alone preventing such attendance."
And whereas, in the present distressed and alarming state of the country, it may not be safe to wait for the deliberate investigations and reports of the said Committee, as required by this Act,
Be it therefore further enacted, that in case of a dissolution of the present Parliament before the said Committee shall have reported upon every city, borough, and port, in the United Kingdom, and that such report shall have been published in the Gazette, by the said Secretary of State, in manner before mentioned, no writ for the election of Citizens or
750
150,000 l. on the vote of last year. The Militia Estimates formed the third vote for branches of Military service, and upon them it was found practicable, by the close and accurate investigation of the right hon. Secretary at War, to effect reductions to the amount of more than 65,000 l.— [Sir Henry Hardinge here said 64,000 l.] —he meant above 64,000 l. To complete the votes on account of the Army, it was only necessary for him to allude to the reduction effected in the Commissariat department: it would be found that the reductions under this head in the present year amounted to a sum of nearly 25,000 l., making the total reductions on account of the grants for the support of the Army, 453,146 l. as compared with the expenditure of 1829; and leaving the whole sum of our expenditure for the three branches of Military force, 7,366,000 l. When this Estimate for the expenses of our Army during the present year was examined minutely, and compared with our expenditure of antecedent years on the same account, he felt sure that the comparison and examination must be most satisfactory to the House; for, taking the Army Estimates, Extraordinaries, and Militia Estimates of the year, they would not only be found less than the military expenditure of many preceding years; but even if we
Burgesses, shall be sent to the following places Old Sarum, Gatton, Westbury—*
And be it further enacted, that writs in place of the before mentioned writs shall be sent by the said Secretary of State, together with a sufficient number of copies of this Act to the Sheriff's of such counties as the King, with the advice of the Privy Council, shall think proper, and the said Sheriffs shall be commanded to return such number of Citizens and Burgesses for such large, populous, unrepresented, or inadequately represented towns, the same being fully able to bear the burthen of paying the wages of attendance as aforesaid, as shall be specified in the said writs; and the said Sheriffs shall be further commanded to give notice to such persons as may be appointed to be the returning officer or officers of such towns or to the inhabitants thereof, as publicly as possible, that returns of all Members to serve in Parliament are to be made by the majority of votes of the inhabitant householders of such towns, assessed to any tax, parochial or parliamentary, and who shall agree to be assessed to the wages of attendance as aforesaid.
And be it further enacted, that all the pro-
* Enumerate here all the other close and decayed places whose "domination" would not foe put an end to, by giving the light of voting to all the inhabitant householders,

751
went back so far as the year 1794, and compared our present expenditure with any year since that period—whether a year of war or of peace—we should see that this Estimate was lower in amount than any one Estimate of a like kind that had been brought forward since 1794. [Sir Henry Hardinge said, "since 1804."] His right hon. friend said "1804:" it might be so; but with all deference to his right hon. friend, he rather apprehended he was right in his statement of the comparative moderation of the Military Estimates for the present year. However, whether the period with which we could institute a favourable comparison extended back to 1794 or only to 1804, he thought the present amount of expenditure very reasonable, and (taking the more recent date) it must be extremely satisfactory to the House to find that our Army Estimates for 1830 were less than they had been for the last six-and-twenty years. The next vote, in point of order, was the vote for the Ordnance; and in reference to that vote he had a single observation to offer to the House. It was, that if there existed one vote which more than another had engaged the time and attention of Government, of the House, or of Committees appointed by the House, with a view to reduction of expenditure, the Ordnance was that particular branch of public service, the Estimates of which had been most minutely canvassed, and in reference to the expenditure of which every species nearly of reduction had been previously practised. It was on this account that the present amount of reduction upon the Ordnance Estimates was proportionately less than the reductions upon other branches of service,—it was limited to a sum of 29,000 l. With respect to the expenditure of the Navy, upon that, as on the Army Estimates, a very considerable reduction would take place in the present year. The saving upon the Navy
visions of this Act, as to the right of voting, right of sitting in the House of Commons, and in respect of all other matters and things therein contained, shall be in full force and virtue the same as if the said Committee had made the reports required by this Act.
And with respect to all other cities, boroughs, or ports, which now send a Member or Members to Parliament, the same directions shall be sent by the said Secretary of State to the returning officers thereof, so that the elections may be made therein by such inhabitant house-holders, as aforesaid.
752
Estimates, as compared with last year, would amount to a sum of 273,000 l. within a few pounds. As to the Miscellaneous Estimates, the House would bear in mind that upon the class of votes included under that head it was more difficult to make large and immediate reductions than upon others, because in the Miscellaneous Estimates were included public works now in progress, which Parliament had already sanctioned, and which the Government was under the necessity of completing, or of abandoning in an unfinished state after having sustained the expense of making a considerable progress towards their completion. Besides, in this department reduction was in some degree less practicable, because in the preceding year, with a view to make every possible saving in point of expenditure, some balances were left on account of the Miscellaneous Estimates, which must be now paid; but after making allowance for these, the reduction on the Miscellaneous Estimates this year would amount to 276,900 l. Taking the whole Estimates of the year, then, the total amount of reduction that would appear in the Estimates was 1,031,985 l. [hear.] As he before stated, taking into account the necessary and unavoidable difficulties in the way of present reductions that arose from the frequency and amount of preceding reductions, and taking into account the necessity of maintaining our establishments upon a footing sufficiently respectable to provide for the continuance of internal tranquillity,—sufficient for the maintenance of our colonies and the upholding of the respectability of our national character abroad;—taking all these things into consideration, he conceived that the course adopted upon the present occasion afforded satisfactory proof of the disposition of his Majesty's Government to go heartily to work upon that reduction in the public expenditure, to which Ministers
And all the provisions of this Act in respect of towns and counties, and all other provisions of this Act, shall be in full force and virtue.
And it is hereby declared, that nothing in this Act shall be construed to extend to the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, or Dublin, and that all cities, boroughs, ports, or towns in the United Kingdom that do send a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, are intended to be included in the provisions of this Act, and are included accordingly.

753
felt themselves pledged from the very first moment of their coming into office, and the necessity of which they had acknowledged by calling on the House to appoint a Finance Committee, with a view to a diminution of the weight of the various establishments of the country. He had already mentioned the savings upon the several Estimates of the present year, and their gross amount; but in estimating the reductions in the expenditure of the present as compared with the last year, it was necessary to add that there had been a practical saving by the reduction of interest on Exchequer-bills, and other matters connected with the management of the Public Debt, to the extent of 180,000 l. in this year's expenditure. If, in addition to this item, the House took into account other reductions made in the Treasury department to the amount of 50,000 l., it would appear that we had certainly relieved ourselves from a charge, as regarded the public expenditure, of little short of 1,300,000 l. in the present as compared with the last year. [hear] As his object in addressing the House was merely to state the facts of the case for general information, it was not necessary that he should add more, having already mentioned the amount of reduction upon each Estimate, and the aggregate saving upon the whole. If there were any Gentlemen present who concurred with the hon. Member for Aberdeen in thinking that a reduction to the amount of 8,000,000 l. or 9,000,000 l. might be effected, such Gentlemen, of course, would receive the statement he had made with disappointment and regret. If, on the other hand, any Gentleman had been disposed to agree with the same hon. Member when he said that the Government would not reduce one item of expenditure, to such Gentlemen the statement he had made must have been an acceptable and agreeable surprise. But to the House generally and to the country, he believed it would be satisfactory to find that such a reduction had been made without any detriment to the public service, without putting the safety of the country in danger, and without making a parade of reducing our force in a manner which might very shortly lead to greater expense from the necessity of recalling that which had been laid aside,—a consequence which, on more than one occasion, had formerly resulted from such a course. Not only the reduc-
754
tion itself, but the manner in which it had been effected, would, he trusted, be viewed by the House and by the country with satisfaction. It had been effected by careful attention, by watchful vigilance in the minor departments, considering what little portions of expense might be lopped off here and there, and what parts of the public service might be performed in as efficient a manner as heretofore, but at the same time less expensively. By such means this reduction had been effected, and he hoped it would be received as an earnest that the Ministers were as anxious as they had declared themselves to be to do their duty as far as regarded the expenditure of the country.
Mr. Humesaid, that either he must have explained himself very imperfectly, or the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer must have strangely misunderstood him. He had never maintained the opinions attributed to him by the right hon. Gentleman. What he had said was, that no adequate reduction could be effected on those items—that nothing could be thus done which would afford the people relief; nor was he in the least disposed to retract this assertion. He would not acknowledge he was mistaken. In the first place, he thought the right hon. Gentleman had made an erroneous statement. He (Mr. Goulburn) said the present Estimates were lower than any since the year 1804; but he (Mr. Hume) found that so far was this from being the case, that the reduction was not that of one year, but of a series of years. He hoped, therefore, the House would not suffer itself to be led away by the erroneous statements of the right hon. Gentleman. Many of his assertions were more erroneous; as, for instance, he had stated that the Estimates of this year were 200,000 l. less than the year before; but by a reference to the balance sheet he (Mr. Hume) found that the three great Estimates, together with the Miscellaneous Estimates, amounted to 460,000 l. more.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer—No, no.
Mr. Humesaid, that if this fact were contradicted, he must beg that the balance sheet be read.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerexplained, that the balance sheet was merely an account of the expenditure during the year past, and never tallied with the Estimates, In the present

755
instance, there was a sum of 500,000 l. which was paid last year, having been due the year before. Ministers, he remarked, did not take credit last year for this sum, when the expenditure, as it appeared on the balance sheet, was less than the Estimates.
Mr. Hume, in continuation, said, he was quite aware of that as well as of the fact that Ministers were in the habit of using the Estimates or the balance sheets as best suited their purpose. Now he begged to call the attention of the House to the condition they were in in the years 1822 and 1823. In the year 1822 the total expenditure for Army, Navy, Miscellaneous, and Extraordinaries was 16,000,000 l. In the last year it was 17,600,000 l. being 1,600,000 l. more than in 1822. Now, if 1822 were not a fair year, let them take the following year. In 1823, the expenditure was 16,282,070 l. for the same items. Take, therefore, the average of the two years, and it would be found that, when the right hon. Gentleman proposed to take off 1,000,000 l. at present, he was only carrying us back to the condition in which we were in 1822. [hear, hear.] So much, then, for the present being the lowest Estimates we had had since 1794 or 1804, and he could not allow such a statement to be made, without showing that it was erroneous. He must therefore protest against the conclusion that we were now at the lowest pitch of expenditure since 1794 to 1804. He would now beg the House to call to mind his proposition. The House would recollect that he had mentioned that a reduction in the expenditure on the Army and Ordnance might be made to the extent of 1,250,000 l. and here he begged the House to remark that the grounds he took for this were, that many of the Army expenses were now placed under the head of Ordnance Expenditure—and he thought very properly—as, for instance, the expenses on barracks were placed under the Ordnance Estimates. Therefore it was not fair to take the Estimates of the Expenditure on the Military Establishments, without adding that on the Ordnance to it. If, then, they took the Expenditure on the Ordnance together with that on the Army—the first amounting to 1,569,000 l., and the second to 7,700,000 l., they would have a total of 9,278,000 l. for the Army, the expense of both having been, in the year 1794, only 2,500,000 l. so that there was
756
an increase of 7,000,000 l. on these two establishments since the year 1794. Now, he did not make his proposition without allowing for the Army and Ordnance Dead Weight. No; for the first he allowed 2,982,000 l.—for the second, 365,220 l.; and accordingly, for both, 3,300,000 l., which he was to take from the 9,300,000 l. and they would then have 6,000,000 l. to pay for the Army and Ordnance, exclusive of all pensions and debts; a sum from which, he contended, 2,000,000 l. might be taken, without injuring the interests of the country, or impairing the efficiency of these establishments, since they would then have 4,000,000 l. to expend upon them, which was amply sufficient. For, in the first place, the Ordnance ought not to be kept up on its present extensive scale. He felt himself called upon to say this, after the challenge of the right hon. Gentleman. The Expenditure on the Ordnance he could declare had been increased three-fold since the year 1792. In that year the expenditure on the corps of Engineers, Sappers, Miners, and the Artillery, amounted to 161,000 l. In 1822 it was raised to 427,000 l., and in 1828 it reached 470,000 l. Not only had the number of men been increased, but also the Staff appointments. At that time, 1792, also, there were only one or two officers on Staff-pay, but now there were fifty-eight with double pay, double allowance, and he knew not what else besides. The fact was, his Majesty's Ministers looked at these matters as if they were about to be called on to take the field for a second Waterloo. But he regarded them with another eye. He differed with Ministers as to the propriety and expediency of maintaining a great Military Force, when he considered our insular situation, and when he saw such abundant reason to apprehend that the country would be at length borne down by the pressure of its warlike burthens. The 6,000,000 l. seemed so disproportionate to the benefits produced by such an expenditure, that Ministers would be unable to effect any reduction beneficial to the country, unless the House compelled them to cut down the force of the Military. The proposed reduction of 1,000,000 l. was not what the country had a right to expect. [hear] Besides, he could not help offering some remark on the reason assigned for not cutting down the Military and Mis-

757
cellaneous Estimates; they had embarked forsooth, in certain works, which if not continued, they would be compelled to abandon altogether. And therefore the House was called upon to agree to an expenditure of two millions and a half. But it would be borne, he trusted, in recollection, that when the first vote of 50,000 l. was called for two years ago for the fortifications in Canada, he had foretold what would be the result of compliance. Why should they be voting 2,500,000 l., for fortifications in Canada? Next, as to the Militia; he would ask why should they only have a reduction of 60,000 l. on its expenditure, which amounted to 280,000 l.? Why should they have only 16,000 l. taken from that other item—the volunteer or yeomanry corps? Why should not the yeomanry be dispensed with altogether? Was there so little patriotism in our Aristocracy that they would not arm their retainers, and place themselves at their head, in case of need or danger, without coming upon an already distressed people to defray the expense. If there were not, he did think that it was the duty of that House, who had the power, to apply a remedy to the abuse. And here, in justice he must say, that if Mr. Canning had lived, and an hon. friend of his had remained in the Home Office, he firmly believed that they would not then be put to 10 l. expense for volunteers or yeomanry. Since 1817, they had paid no less than 3,700,000 l. for the Militia. Instead, therefore, of a reduction of 65,000 l., he thought that a reduction of 265,000 l. would be nearer the mark. As to the reduction which had been effected by the present Administration, he considered it only a postponement of expense, because Ministers must, according to their own shewing, complete the works in which they had engaged. This was especially the case with respect to the Miscellaneous Estimates, in which the paltry sum of 276,000 l. only was to be saved. He called it a paltry sum in comparison with the reduction that ought to be made. He would next speak of the Irish Estimates, and would be glad to know what became of the half-million thus expended. The Finance Committee had recommended a reduction of one-half this sum, and he thought that at least 100,000 l. ought to have been taken off this year. For the last twenty years there had been a dreadful waste of the public money
758
in Ireland, and it was lavished with a view of maintaining corruption, and keeping up an undue influence; but this ought now to be brought to an end; they had, after the measures which had been lately passed, a right to expect that Ireland should be placed upon the same footing as England and Scotland. He hoped, therefore, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in not alluding to any diminution of that item, had only made an omission. [hear, hear.] He had next to ask, was it not proposed to make some reduction in the expenditure on the Colonies, which drained the country every year to such a frightful extent? It was really monstrous to observe the salaries of officers—the manner in which these offices were filled up, the way in which the revenues were collected, and the military expenses of each colony; the evil was notorious, and yet was it passed by in total silence. Again, he wished to impress upon the House that they could not persist in maintaining an establishment of eighty-one thousand infantry; of eight thousand artillery, sappers, miners, and engineers; and thirty thousand seamen: an aggregate of military force which no country, in however perfect a state of prosperity, ought to maintain in time of peace. [hear, hear] The evils resulting from this system were the worst and most oppressive. The number of pensioners on the public was, in the first place, perpetually increasing, and therefore the Dead Weight was increasing in proportion. No relief could, therefore, be obtained, until this was altered; for what was the present state of the country? Sixty-five or seventy-five thousand men were required to keep our Colonies; for, independent of the forces maintained there, it was necessary to have dépôts and preparatory establishments. In a word, no great or effectual reduction in the burthens of the country could be made until they first reduced the number of men on the Military Establishments, and until they brought down the Staff to the same state it was in before the war. It now cost us 100,000 l. A reduction had indeed been made, but what was it? Why, a reduction of Medical officers. [hear, and a laugh.] Twenty thousand men ought to be at once reduced, and then he thought a saving of 4,000,000 l. would come within the scope of Ministers' power. He hoped the House would have time to read

759
the right hon. Gentleman's statement. He thought the 17,600,000 l. or the 16,000,000 l., might be reduced by upwards of 6,000,000 l. which, with the surplus Revenue, would give a sum of 8,000,000 l. to the people. [hear] The House could make these reductions if it were willing. The only way was to refuse to vote more than 9,000,000 l., which, he contended, was all that was necessary. The surplus merely went to support the patronage of the Government, and was not called for by necessity.
Lord Althorpsaid, he would not withhold his praise from the reductions as far as they went; they certainly were greater than he expected, but yet he was bound to say they were not sufficient when he considered the distressed state of the country. [hear] They were not sufficient to give any material relief. As he was on his legs, he would take the opportunity of thanking the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) for the reforms he had stated to be in his contemplation on the preceding night. That right hon. Gentleman appeared disposed to strike off more patronage than any other Administration had ever before consented to resign. This was a sign, he trusted, that the right hon. Gentleman intended to carry on the Government supported by the attachment of the people; but he begged to remind him that he must first ameliorate the condition of the population, which could not be done without affording them relief from the burthen of taxation. [hear, hear] He was surprised that the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said nothing of the reduction of taxation, for without that there could be no relief to the country, although he did not expect that any Administration would ever make a sufficient reduction of its own accord. The House must compel them. He was well aware of the feeling that prevailed in the breasts of those presiding over any particular departments. For instance, he knew the energy and activity the right hon. and gallant officer (Sir H. Hardinge) displayed in the management of the affairs of the Ordnance. He knew his anxiety to have everything in the same state of order and efficiency as in time of war; and he could understand the pride he (Sir H. Hardinge) felt in his department, and the sentiments which would urge him to oppose any reduction which would have the effect of
760
diminishing the force over which he exercised a control. So it was with the Gentlemen who presided over the other departments; each of them was anxious to keep his department in the most perfect efficiency; under the present circumstances of the country, however, this was impossible; the House could not share in their feelings, nor adopt such reasoning. The Commons should recollect that the best way to prepare for war was by filling the pockets of the people, [hear] and not by keeping up our Military Establishments on the same enormous scale as at present. In conclusion he would observe that it would be the duty of the Members to look to the various Estimates in the Committee, and to reduce them as much as possible, being assured that by so doing, no detriment could happen to the public service.
Sir E. Knatchbullallowed, that the reduction exceeded his expectations, and he gave the Administration credit for wishing to reduce the expenditure of the country to the utmost possible limits, consistent with what they deemed the efficient maintenance of the Civil and Military Establishments. [hear] But the amount of this reduction was in nowise calculated to give relief to the people in their present distressed condition. He had in a frank and candid manner borne witness to the good intentions of the Administration [hear, hear]; while he at the same time declared they had not done enough. In discussing this question, he, however, felt himself placed in a situation of extreme difficulty. He might look to the establishments of the country in reference to its character and situation in the European community. In this view he must agree with Ministers that there could be no farther reduction. But there was another view of the case, which referred to the internal circumstances of the country; and looking at them, he was bound to ask if the country could bear the pressure of its present burthen? and then he should be obliged to acknowledge that he could not see a capability of supporting the enormous load of taxation, unless it were accompanied by a change in the standard of value. In looking to the Administration, he could say that there was no gentleman connected with it who did not, he believed, ably and zealously discharge the duties of his office; and yet when there was a question if the

761
salaries of public men ought not to be reduced, he was obliged to give his voice in the affirmative, because he felt that it was impossible for the country to pay for their services at that rate—of which they were, perhaps, Well deserving. The fact was, the Government had only two courses open; it must either change the policy they had for some sime past pursued, or it must reduce taxation. The Administration within the last five years had adopted the liberal policy (as it was called) of the hon. Member for Montrose, and other hon. Members, who generally sat on the second Opposition bench; it had followed their advice in respect to matters of commerce and the internal government of the country, but it had neglected that which the hon. Gentleman had always recommended as a concomitant of the free trade system; the Government had made no reduction in taxation. It had therefore now only one of the two courses to pursue, and must either abandon this new policy, or it must make an efficient reduction in taxation. [hear, hear] Did Ministers hesitate now to adopt the concomitant measure, and so decline both courses, the country must fall between the two propositions; and he knew not how it was to be extricated. [hear] He might be deceived in these gloomy prospects, and he should be delighted if it were so; but he felt that he should not have discharged his duty, if he had not stated his views upon the subject, Giving, then, Ministers credit for the best intentions; acknowledging that the reductions had exceeded his expectations, he would conclude by declaring that he saw little prospect of their relieving the country from the desperate state of distress under which it then suffered, unless one of the two courses he had mentioned were promptly taken. [hear, hear.]
Mr. W. Hortonsaid, the allusion in the King's Speech to the distress of the country was vague and unsatisfactory. There were three classes suffering at present. The landowner, who did not get his rents; the capitalists, who had to endure a diminution of profits; and lastly, the labourers and artizans—the most numerous of the three—who were compelled to work for their support. Now he contended that unless a division were made in this triplicate character of distress, little could be done. Every man must agree with the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr.
762
Hume) as to the expediency of reducing taxation; but that hon. Member much deceived himself when he fancied that the distress of the people, the labourers and artizans, would be alleviated by adding twenty or fifty thousand men to their number. He repeated that if there were any one who really hoped and believed that these reductions would restore prosperity to the working classes, that person, he feared, would find himself disappointed. It was true that every body felt an objection to pay for a large standing Army unless he saw an absolute necessity for its existence; but before any measures were adopted to relieve any particular classes (and he admitted the working classes ought to be most anxiously attended to, because they had no Representatives in the House), it became the House to be well satisfied as to the probable operation of such measures. Some hon. Gentlemen seemed to fancy that the depreciation of the currency would produce immense wealth in the country; they were mistaken in the idea; and although they constantly repeated that the country could not continue to pay the present taxes with the existing currency, it by no means followed that the people would be better able to pay them in another currency. The hon. Baronet who last addressed the House had stated that taxation must be reduced, and was one of those Gentlemen he believed who were disposed to recommend, if taxation were not reduced, that the currency should be again altered. But how a second change—a change from our present to our former currency—was to relieve the suffering classes of the community, he really could not understand; and after the positive declarations of Ministers that they would not alter the currency, and after the support the House had given to those declarations, he thought they were precluded from even making a change the subject of consideration as one of their measures of relief. He must, however say, that the immediate relief of the working classes would not operate as a relief to the whole community, for past experience had proved that great prosperity might exist in one portion of the empire and great distress in another. The fallacy of the expectation that the prosperity of one class—and that a very large class—must necessarily be accompanied by the prosperity of all the rest, was shown by the circumstances of the year 1825. In the Speech from the

763
Throne in that year, which, by-the-bye, was made prior to the currency transactions now so much bewailed, the prosperity of the country was spoken of in a very glowing manner—every one echoed the rejoicings there made, and language seemed too weak to describe the almost overwhelming prosperous state of the country. Yet at that very moment Ireland was in a state of misery unequalled in any portion of the civilized world. And if it were true that this country was most prosperous at that moment, when distress and wretchedness were so widely spread in Ireland, it might also be true that the restoration of the suffering working classes to a state of comfort would not be accompanied with a general return to prosperity throughout the country. He wished besides to observe, that the mode of relief recommended by the honourable Member for Aberdeen was hardly likely to produce any extensive good, for the dismissal from the service of twenty thousand men, who must be thrown upon their already overcharged parishes, would diminish to small extent the burthens of the people, since these men must be supported by taxes upon the inhabitants, levied either in one shape or another. In his conscience, therefore, he did not think that remedy was calculated to produce much benefit. If, indeed, the twenty thousand men could be taken away altogether, and the country were never more to see them, in that case the reduction might be efficiently applied to relieve the burthens of the people; but if their mere dismissal from the Army were to be put forward under the pretence that it was a reduction which would relieve the people, he should certainly oppose it, even though he stood alone. He thought it by no means a judicious course in hon. Gentlemen to speak of such reductions as likely to produce much benefit, seeing that, the poverty of the great mass of the people had a very different cause from the extent of our establishments, he meant a superabundance of population.
Mr. Baringsaid, that the attention of every body was directed to the distress now prevalent, and every body both within and without that House looked out for some measure of relief. No persons at all acquainted with the state of the country could deny that the distress was very general; but if they looked to the reductions the Government would be able to make as a permanent source of relief,
764
undoubtedly they would be much mistaken. Still, however, though these reductions would not afford much actual relief to the people, they would be most acceptable to the country as an earnest of the feelings of the Government, and as a proof of its sincere wish to adopt every possible plan of economy [hear hear! from the Treasury benches]. In the course of that discussion, many questions had been agitated which might have been much better deferred till the subjects with which they were connected fairly came before the House. Still there were Gentlemen who would, on every subject, introduce matters likely to be agreeable to the wishes and interests of their constituents; and who would speak for such a purpose upon subjects not immediately connected with those under discussion. He should not follow their example, but would briefly notice one or two of the arguments used by hon. Members who had preceded him. In reply to the hon. Baronet who had talked of the general system of Government, as one properly liable to complaint, he would merely observe that if such were the opinion of the hon. Baronet, he ought to have introduced a Motion that would have brought the subject of their conduct fairly before the House. There were some hon. Gentlemen who advocated the system of a free trade in Corn. If Government could effect that, undoubtedly, it would have afforded a great amelioration to the distresses of at least one part of the people. He did not. mean to say that he was the advocate of such a system, but he mentioned it to recall to the House the manner in which it had been employed in reference to the speech of the hon. Member for Aberdeen with respect to the reduction of taxes. The hon. Baronet had said, that free trade in corn could not be granted without being accompanied by a reduction of the public burthens; and he seemed to think that we ought in other matters to return to the old system of high duties or absolute prohibition. If he thought so, he ought to make his opinion the subject of a specific Motion. If, for instance, he believed that further protection might be granted to the Wool Trade, he ought distinctly to bring that subject under the consideration of the House. They should then have heard what were the arguments for, and what the arguments against it, and whether the protection to be afforded would be a relief or an additional mischief to the country;

765
and as the arguments preponderated, so, he was sure, would the House decide. If the hon. Baronet wished the standard of the currency to be reduced, he ought to make a specific proposition to that effect; but as that subject had nothing to do with the business now before the House, he thought it ought not to have been introduced; and he could only say, that when-ever the subject did fairly come under consideration, he should take the opportunity of saying a few words upon it. The question now was as to the extent of the proposed reduction. That reduction certainly was not one of an extended kind. Still it was such as it would be acceptable; and he only feared that in stating its nature and amount, the right hon. Gentleman had given them the pleasantest part of the picture, and had reserved something that was not quite so agreeable; for he had not told them, what it was to be feared events would prove; namely, that the reductions would be barely sufficient, if indeed they were sufficient, to cover the deficiencies in the year's revenue. That deficiency was not to be attributed to the Government; but there was no person could know from what sources revenue was derived, without also knowing that when distress did exist in the country the revenue would show it. He repeated, that he rather feared the sum of thirteen or fourteen hundred thousand pounds, which was the amount of the reductions, would hardly cover the deficiencies of the revenue for the year. From this source no great relief could possibly be expected. If any Gentleman had any financial proposition to make that would effect such an advantage, he ought to submit it to the House; but if he thought that much good was to be effected by the mere reduction of taxation at the present moment, he would find himself much mistaken. There was one principle, as stated by the hon. Member for Aberdeen on a former night, to which he must object; in considering the state of the finances of this country, the hon. Member had anticipated that under certain circumstances there might be a surplus revenue, and he had said that he would not permit such a surplus to remain in the hands of the Government. To that principle he objected. He would ask whether there was any country in Europe in which men who considered the nature of the Government, and the fluctuations to which the revenue was always subject, would
766
ever agree to such a proposition. A large and fluctuating revenue, and particularly a revenue which, like our own, depended in a great measure on the consumption and on the means of enjoyment possessed by the lower classes, was one on the permanency of which no man could rely, and venture to sweep away at once any surplus that might exist in a particular year. He was aware that there was a strong popular objection to the Sinking Fund from the abuses to which it had been subjected while it existed; and certain it was, that when a man borrowed, as the Minister had been used to do, with one hand, while he paid with the other, and borrowed too at a very large amount of interest, there must be a considerable loss at the end of the account. For such a purpose, therefore, he agreed that a surplus revenue ought not to be left in the hands of the Minister. But the credit of this country would be gone were a principle adopted which went to take away the reasonable surplus that particular circumstances might leave from the annual revenue. For his own part he must confess he should like to see that surplus applied to the purposes he had mentioned on a former occasion. He should wish to see the country (though he believed it impossible at the present moment) make some effort towards the reduction of that enormous debt which now overburthened it. To see that would be his greatest happiness; but he feared that it existed rather in prospect than in possession. He was sure there was hardly any thinking man in the country who would not make a considerable sacrifice in order to be able to accomplish a proportionate reduction of the debt. If a surplus were really applied to such a purpose, no one could object to leaving it in the hands of the Minister. He had only intended to state his dissent from the principle of refusing to leave a surplus in the Minister's hands, under any circumstances. There might be, besides, another reason for not entirely refusing to leave the surplus in the Minister's hands. There might be a considerable deficiency in the Revenue of a particular year, and it might be necessary to apply the surplus of the preceding year to make up the deficiency in that, and to meet those casualties which circumstances might give rise to. Referring again to the different subjects which had been introduced into this discussion, he wished to observe that there were some which the

767
sooner they were decided the better. One, for instance, was that which related to the Malt Trade—a question which he thought ought to be decided as speedily as possible; for, in consequence of the uncertainty now prevailing concerning it, there was a great degree of stagnation in the trade, which would continue until men knew what were the intentions of Parliament upon the subject. He trusted that either the Government or some hon. Member would, for the reason he had referred to, speedily bring the question under the consideration of the House. He would now state with regard to the reductions that the right hon. Gentleman had proposed, that, although he did not think they would produce any considerable alteration in the condition of the people, still he felt that the Government were entitled to his thanks for making them; and he would freely state that, small as they might appear, they were more considerable than he had expected in the present state of the departments of the public service. It was quite evident in this case that the Government must have been fully and continually busy in the recess to effect these reductions. They were such as in their very nature to require time and labour; and the Government must have given them every attention without thinking of any party. In justice to the right hon. Gentleman he must say, that his plans involved a sacrifice of patronage and place such as he had never before heard of. [hear] The subject of the Army Estimates having been before the Committee, which he had pretty regularly attended, he knew something of the matter, and he must say that he doubted very much whether more reductions of expenditure could be made, unless a reduction were made in the effective force of the country. If the sum total of money paid to maintain our Army establishments were considered with reference to past services (which were a debt due from the country), and with reference to the manner in which services were at present performed, he did not think that much greater reductions could be made. It was his conviction, from having looked at these circumstances in the Committee, that with the exception of a regiment or two of Cavalry, it would be difficult to make any further reductions in the Army; and, though the same opinion was not expressed by the Committee, he
768
believed that many of the Members had the same impression as himself. The present numbers of the Army were necessary to be kept up, as there were relays necessary in our different Colonial Garrisons, and which could not be granted if the Army was put upon a diminished scale. There were, indeed, some of our Garrisons that he thought needless, because he did not see any use in retaining the Colonies in which they were placed. Unless there were some reason with which he was not acquainted for preferring a name to utility, he could not but think that it was among the idlest of all fancies to retain the Ionian Islands. The force kept up there was considerable, and necessarily entailed another expense, as it required a corresponding force at home [hear, from Mr. Hume]. He should like much to hear of what use to this country were the Ionian Islands. Having Gibraltar at the entrance of the Mediterranean, and Malta, which seemed almost made for us, in the upper part of that sea, he could not possibly conceive what reason there was to retain them among the number of our possessions. He believed that we had at first taken these Islands reluctantly, and at the Congress of Vienna had accepted them because Russia and France could not agree what power should have them. We got nothing, so far as he knew, but currants from them for our mince pies, and those would be sent to us without our incurring the expense of maintaining these Islands in our possession. The most important part of the financial concerns of the country consisted of the Dead Weight—in other words, the amount due for past services, which nearly amounted to six millions a-year; and if the House only considered, that though almost sixty millions a-year were raised from the people, vet, that after all deductions for debt and Dead Weight, the actual expenditure of the Government was little more than eleven millions annually, they would admit that it exhibited a picture not to be paralleled among the other nations of the earth. The fact, that out of the large sum he had named, the Government had only to deal with about eleven millions a year, showed how much the credit of the country must have been abused at former times. He hoped that some reductions, consistent with justice, might be adopted; for though it would be hard to withhold

769
the pensions of old servants, yet, he must say, that he thought upon that subject the generosity of the House and of the country had carried them too far, and he would rather follow the principle adopted by the American Government, who pay servants well while in employment, and nothing afterwards, than continue that loose and extravagant system which experience showed to have been open to every species of abuse. He thought] that some attempt might be made to remedy the abuses of the present civil system. He did not see why the clerks to the Government should not, like clerks to merchants, provide for their own superannuations. [hear, hear] To introduce at once such a plan was perhaps impossible, as many of the persons now in employment were probably on the verge of becoming superannuated; but such a system ought to have been before introduced, and the clerks should have been taught to look to their own provident care, with the aid of the Benefit and Friendly Societies, for their maintenance after quitting the duties of active service. He begged again to repeat his thanks to Ministers for the reductions they had made.
Mr. Alderman Waithmansaid, that the efforts of any hon. Member to procure retrenchment must be ineffectual without the aid of the Government; and yet retrenchment they must have, and that of a more extensive kind than any that had been hitherto adopted. He agreed with those hon. Gentlemen who said that these reductions would not give material relief to the country; but at the same time he felt assured, that without them no relief whatever would be obtained. The causes of the distress had not been sufficiently examined. How was it that some were abounding in plenty, while others were deeply distressed? that the warehouses of the manufacturer were over-stocked, and yet that thousands were in want of the articles of his manufacture? In this condition, how small was the relief that the reduction of one million of taxes would give the country! With respect to the Estimates, he thought it was incumbent on the Government to act with a view to the greatest possible economy; for though the relief was but small, still it was absolutely wanted. There were some taxes that ought more than others to be immediately abolished. In his opinion no tax bore more hardly on the mass of the people than the House and Window Taxes,
770
and he trusted they would soon be repealed.
An hon. Member trusted, that what had been brought forward to-night was only the commencement of a regular plan of reduction. If he thought that any surplus which might exist were only to be employed as a Sinking Fund, he should, from the experience we had already had of Sinking Funds, consider it utterly useless. He bore testimony to the existence of very great and extensive distress. The peasantry were worse paid, worse fed, and worse cloathed than ever, and nothing but the most rigid and well-directed economy could save them from the consequences of the distress that now so generally prevailed. The superabundance of corn produced was at one time stated to be a cause of distress; next, a bad season and a short crop had occasioned the same evil: in fact, nobody knew how it began or where it would end. He had great confidence in Ministers, and believed that they would take the condition of the country into their most serious consideration, with the view of affording speedy and effectual relief.
Mr. Maberlycommenced by referring to what had fallen from the hon. Member for Callington, whom he had expected, and had not been disappointed in that expectation, to be merely the echo of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. On one point, however, like the celebrated echo of the sister kingdom, he had even said more than was put into his mouth, and had suggested a plan which the right hon. Gentleman would never have thought of proposing. The hon. Member for Calling-ton had been one of the last to support the now exploded fallacy of the Sinking Fund, which, if maintained at all, should be preserved, not by paying with one hand and borrowing with the other, but by an actual bona fide surplus revenue. The light upon this subject had, however, only lately and tardily reached the remote and dim planet of contemplation, in which that hon. Member resided. In his (Mr. Maberly's) opinion, the only way to relieve distress was to give as much as possible to the people, and by means of the surplus revenue to relieve the burthen of taxation. He was happy to find so many Members on the other side of the House now eagerly pressing for the necessity of reduction; he only wished that they had thought of taking the same course in 1817, and fifty millions of expenditure might have been saved by

771
adopting the reform then suggested by the Finance Committee. He was aware that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not pursued the usual course on the present occasion, but he had adopted what ought always to be the course, and had set a most useful precedent. Parliament ought to have such a preliminary statement every Session, before it was called upon to vote the Supplies, and the country would thus know what it had to expect. Although the reductions explained by the right hon. Gentleman might satisfy many, they by no means satisfied him, because they did not go far enough. With respect to the Army, they were far short of the extent to which they ought to have gone. Where was the consolidation of the Paymaster-ships—of the War-office—of the department of the Comptroller of Public. Accounts, and of the Agency-office? all of which had been recommended by the last Finance Committee. Where were the reductions of the Cavalry? Instead of a saving of only 200,000 l., he was convinced that expenditure might here alone be reduced with ease to the amount of 500,000 l. Where was the necessity for so many offices? or supposing the other establishments were preserved, in agency alone a saving of 24,000 l. a-year might be effected. Where was the use of the duplicate and triplicate accounts kept, excepting to multiply places, when all that was wanted was a detail of payments, and a proper check upon them? The proposed reductions in the Navy might be said to amount almost to nothing, compared with what they ought to have been. This was one of the most extravagant departments of the State, including ship-building, and wages of men for five days in a week who ought not to be employed at all. It was preposterous to keep artificers in pay to prevent their employment by foreign nations, because their services might possibly be needed here twenty or thirty years hence. The reductions ought to have been fully double the amount to which they were to be carried according to the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Miscellaneous department was in precisely the same situation, and the expense of our colonies was the source and root of an enormous evil. He was ready to admit that the gallant officer opposite (Sir H. Hardinge) was a most useful public servant; no man could feel more respect for him than he did; he was
772
a most active and able man both in his civil and military capacity, but especially in the former, which he (Mr. Maberly) had had the best opportunity of observing. That gallant officer would, no doubt, assert that the reduction in the Army could not be carried further; but he (Mr. Maberly) would ask, as an instance, why should not the expense of the Horse-Guards be lessened? Why was it necessary to keep up the three regiments? They, and other bodies of Cavalry, never went beyond England and Ireland, while with regard to the Infantry, their tour of duty was far more extensive and severe; they were fifteen years abroad, and only five at home, and when at home they were very frequently stationed in Ireland. If the matter were thoroughly examined, it would be found that a considerable reduction might safely be made in the Infantry employed in the colonies. The committee of 1817 had reported that the whole expenditure ought to be about 17,300,000 l. but last year it had exceeded that sum by no less than 300,000 l. Let the House attend to this simple fact, which depended upon no fancy or calculation of his, but upon the report of a Committee. Excepting in the year 1822 or 1823, when the expenditure was a trifle below the amount stated in the report, it had unfortunately exceeded this. He put it, therefore, to every hon. Member, whether, after fourteen years of peace—after every article used by soldier and sailor had been so much lowered in price—when the outcry was, that low price was the cause of distress—it was fit that the Estimates should be 300,000 l. higher than in 1817, only the second year of peace? The fact that in 1817 the Committee had decided that no more ought to be spent than 17,300,000 l. could not be too strongly impressed upon the House. Where had been the increase of territorial possession to render an additional 300,000 l. necessary? He fully concurred with the noble Member for Northamptonshire (Lord Althorp) that nothing could relieve the public distress but the lessening of taxation; but he feared that whatever reduction was intended to be made would be applied to the payment of the debt, and not to the diminution of the public burthens. He had heard nothing from the Chancellor of the Exchequer to lead him to suppose that a single existing impost was to be removed. Suppose the interest of the debt

773
were lessened to the extent of 180,000 l. it would afford no relief to the suffering population: to a certain extent the right hon. Gentleman might deserve credit for this saving; but it would occasion no diminution of the establishments of the country. It had been asserted by the hon. Member for Callington, that the sum out of which only a saving could be made was eleven millions; but the sum the Chancellor of the Exchequer had dealt with was twelve millions, omitting all considerations of Scotland, which, with other sources of revenue, afforded the additional sum of six millions. Here then were eighteen millions out of which reductions might be made; and if the House pressed the matter, Ministers would soon find, that they could adopt its recommendations with perfect safety to the State. It depended, therefore, on the House alone to make the reductions. The mere modification of existing taxes would afford an opportunity of relief, and upon this point he might confidently refer to the Beer Duties, in the collection of which 370,000 l. a year might be saved. The duties on printed cotton amounted to two millions, of which 1,400,000 l. were repaid in the shape of drawbacks, and of the remaining 600,000 l. only about 300,000 l. came into the Exchequer, the rest being consumed in the collection. A reduction, then, to the amount of 300,000 l. might be obtained from the very source of this revenue, to the important relief of the people. He did not usually deal so much in assertions as proofs, but he had no hesitation in asserting that the affairs of this country could be conducted quite as well as at present if relief were afforded to the distressed in the shape of diminished taxation to the extent of 4,000,000 l. If the House should come to that conclusion, Ministers would not be long in arriving at it also, and they would continue just as ready to discharge all their public functions upon the altered scale. To talk of reduction as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had talked of it, was a mere matter of form, and it meant nothing in substance, as far as related to the sufferings of the people. He would take the surplus of last year at 1,700,000 l. and the saving this year, with the Exchequer Bills, would amount to 1,280,000 l. so that if the revenue continued as productive as it had been, there would remain about three millions that might be applied by the
774
Chancellor of the Exchequer to the diminution of taxation. The right hon. Gentleman might reply, that the produce of the revenue would not continue so high as at present; but at all events, it was not to be disputed that in 1830 there would be a surplus, on the whole, of three millions. Whatever it might be, certain he was, that it ought to be devoted to the lessening of the public burthens, and that the best support to the public creditor was the relief of the people.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonhad been disappointed by the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, not merely at the amount of reduction, but at the mode of its application. He thought that both the Army and Navy cost the country too much, more especially after Ireland had been pacified, and all chance of war in Europe was at an end, in consequence of the subjugation of Turkey. In Ireland alone, a reduction of the military force might be made to the extent of 5000 men.
Mr. W. Smithcongratulated Ministers, that the well-applied exertions of the noble Duke at their head had placed the country in such a situation, that even if much larger savings were made it could look an enemy in the face without apprehension. Thirty or forty years ago it had been said that the Army of England was the ridicule of the Continent, but now it was at once a source of terror and admiration. With regard to our colonies, an important saving might be effected, for the best of all reasons—because they were not worth keeping at their present expense. Most hon. Members seemed afraid to look the National Debt in the face—it had grown to such a giant size, that it certainly was not a pleasant object of contemplation; but we could not make it less by not venturing to estimate its height. He admitted that it was advisable to have a small available surplus, but it was mere folly to devote it, under the delusion of a Sinking Fund, to the supposed payment of a debt exceeding seven hundred millions. Instead of these vain attempts to reduce the Debt, the wisest plan would be to endeavour to increase the comforts of the people.
The Question was then put that the Speaker leave the Chair, and being carried, the House resolved itself into a

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
Sir H. Hardingeproceeded to state the Army Estimates for the ensuing year. He should pursue the

775
usual because most convenient course, by comparing the Estimates for the present with those of the past year; but previously he would give a few particulars relative to the intended diminution. Passing by, therefore, for a moment, the amount of force, he would first mention the reductions in the Staff of the Army which the Commander-in-chief had been able to make. He was sorry not to see the hon. Member for Aberdeen in his place (and his absence at. such a time was a very unusual circumstance), who had said that the reductions in the Staff were chiefly confined to Medical officers. He could assure the Committee, that the number of other Staff-officers reduced this year was greater than the number of Medical Staff-officers. Last year, indeed, the reduction among the Medical Staff-officers had been considerable, producing a saving of 19,000 l. This year the saving on the Staff generally was 7,788 l., making together a sum of about 27,000 l., which could not be justly termed, as the hon. Member for Aberdeen had termed it, a paltry saving. The office of Adjutant-General had been abolished: for four years it had been very useful and effective, but when the Committee came to examine what reductions could be made, it found that that situation might be dispensed with, and Government had accordingly acquiesced in the suggestion. In his own department would be found a small increase in the salaries, for length of service; but he could assert that in no office did the clerks discharge their duties more assiduously. The Secretary for the Treasury (Mr. G. Dawson) on a former night had mentioned that seventy-three persons now so employed in the office of Secretary at War received less than was paid to fifty-eight clerks in the year 1797, although the duty had been materially increased. During the war the number of clerks had been gradually enlarged to one hundred and seventy, but his predecessor (Lord Palmerston) had reduced that number to seventy-three, at which the establishment Still continued. During the last fourteen years only five or six appointments had been made in the War Office, and those had fallen to his predecessor; for although there were many deserving candidates for vacancies in his time, none had occurred. The next item was the Military College, and the total expense was now 7,659 l. The Governor of the College formerly
776
enjoyed a salary of 1,500 l., but at present it was reduced to 1,000 l. a year, and in that reduction the individual had willingly acquiesced. The saving in the item of General Officers amounted to 10,000 l. the whole amount being 26,000 l. The Retired Full Pay of Officers was 104,000 l. being a diminution of 5,000 l. The Home Half Pay was 520,000 l., showing a reduction of 18,177 l. The Foreign Half Pay was lower by 2,370 l. than last year, making a total diminution under this head of 35,549 l. Last year he had informed the Committee that the sum of 82,000 l. had been appropriated to the cancelling of half-pay commissions, and he had expressed his opinion, that one hundred and forty commissions would be cancelled. The fact was, that two hundred and ten Commissions had been cancelled, and a saving effected of 150,000 l. including a sum for casualties. The apparent saving on the Half-pay was only 17,000 l., but in fact it amounted to more than double that sum. The hon. Member for Aberdeen had complained that there was no diminution in the Half-pay, but it was a misapprehension on his part. The number of officers reduced subsequent to the peace while his noble friend was in office, was nearly three thousand five hundred. The pensioners formed the next item, and the subject was important. The House would see from the Estimates, that in the Pension List a diminution had been effected of one thousand two hundred men, by a strict observance of the rule, never to discharge any but those who had really been worn out in the service. The observance of that rule, and of the revised regulations, was, he conceived, likely to be productive of the best results; as, for example, the years spent in private life—namely, between one period of service and another—were as half time; thus, if a man were out of the service for two years, and joined again, that period had been reckoned as one year. The practice was now abolished, as was also the practice of reckoning time spent in India or elsewhere. Again, when a soldier was discharged, he was not pensioned unless he had been disabled on service. Formerly, it happened that from the facilities with which pensions were granted, many young men not above twenty years of age were pensioned after, perhaps, only one year of service; but now there, was no pensioning, except for injuries actually

777
contracted on service. Preparatory to the present statement he made a calculation, from which it appeared that three hundred and fifty men were pensioned annually for slight disabilities, whose average age was twenty-four years, and whose average period of service was four years. He had also found that twenty thousand men had been at one time receiving pensions under the old regulations, whose average age was thirty-one years. Many men who had been pensioned for life, retired after a service of only eight on ten years, and enjoyed those pensions for thirty or forty years afterwards. The regulations under which those abuses prevailed were such as he felt bound to advise his Majesty to alter, and the consequence was, he might be permitted to say, that none received pensions for short periods, except such as were justly entitled to them, upon the strictest application of the rules; and none for long periods, except for long and faithful services. By these means, then, had the Pension List been got down to what it was in the year 1817. The amount of Widows' Pensions was 145,267 l.; upon that, however, there had been an increase of 1,856 l. No widows, it was to be observed, were entitled to pensions, unless their husbands had served for a period of ten years at the least on full pay, or unless they had been killed on actual service. If hon. Gentlemen would turn to page 34, they would find that Mr. Francis Moore had been in possession of a pension of 1,800 l. per annum, and that he had voluntarily relinquished 800 l. per annum of that pension. That was a gift made to the nation in the most simple and unostentatious manner, [loud cheers] Mr. Moore said, that he spent his income out of the country, and having thus no means of contributing to the exigencies of the country, he desired to relinquish the 800 l. a year stated in the Estimates. It was his (Sir H. H's) fortune to have been present at the time when the brother of that Mr. Moore closed his career, with a heroism, with a superhuman fortitude, which he had never seen approached. The relinquishment of so large a sum was the more worthy of especial notice, as Mr. Moore's fortune, he had reason to know, was extremely moderate. He had to add, that the act was done with the full concurrence of Lieutenant-Colonel Moore, his son, whose income above his pay was also very moderate. He would pass to some of the details of the Estimates
778
then on the Table. The expense of the full amount of force for the current year was fixed at 6,123,112 l.; that, it was to be observed, was the lowest Estimate for the last twenty five years—apparently those for the years 1822 and 1823 were less, but then there were colonial corps paid out of the colonial funds, which was not the case at present. He was accordingly justified in saying that the present was the lowest Estimate that had been presented to Parliament in any year during the peace. The gross amount of men had been fixed at eighty-eight thousand, eight hundred and forty-eight, by which a reduction of 7,684 l. was effected. In 1829 the reduction was only 1,200 l. In page 41 they would see that the amount of force intended for Ireland had been most materially reduced; and whatever difference of sentiment might prevail with respect to the Catholic question, it would at least be acknowledged that the present peaceable state of Ireland was most gratifying. In page 41 they would see, from the general distribution of force, the number of men withdrawn from Ireland was not less than three thousand—to that he had to add that the expense of the military establishment in that part of the United Kingdom did not exceed 50,000 l. Apologising to the Committee for having so long occupied their attention, he proceeded to state that the total number of battalions in the service was one hundred and three—that seventy-four of these were abroad—that twenty-nine were at home, or rather, he should say, that twenty-nine less by four were generally at home—four were, for the most part, on the passage between home and their foreign destination. At present it happened that there were only three battalions on the passage, leaving the actual number at home twenty-six, divided between Great Britain and Ireland, of which number four, as usual, were under orders for foreign service. The practice was to have battalions ten years abroad and four at home, and it must be evident to the Committee that the numbers requisite for maintaining that practice—the advantage of which had not been questioned—could not be kept with a smaller amount of force. The hon. Member for Callington had said that some of the guards might be sent abroade—to that he had only to reply that their numerical strength was not sufficient for such a purpose. The battalions of the guards were not more numerous at present than they were in the reign of Charles 2nd

779
—than they were at the end of the American war—than they were in the year 1792. The hon. Member for Callington had called for a reduction of the Cavalry; but if he would turn to page 4, he would find that there had been a reduction of four hundred and sixty-four. Certainly, in one respect, the Cavalry establishment was on a larger scale. In the year 1792 there were two Majors in each battalion, but the Commander-in-chief had directed that whenever vacancies arose of the second Majors, such vacancies should not be filled up. He was not aware that it was necessary for him to go any further into detail—it could scarcely be supposed that the number of battalions at home was too much, considering the necessity for relief. The evidence of the Quarter-master-general before the Finance Committee, was he apprehended, completely conclusive on that subject. Assuming, then, that the force in the United Kingdom was not excessive, he would inquire whether the number abroad was more than our foreign garrisons required? According to the evidence before the Finance Committee, the force in the West India Islands was greater in the year 1792 than at present—though the circumstances of our possessions there had materially changed. We now had there in our immediate neighbourhood a black population at St. Domingo, within twenty-four hours sail of Jamaica, and certainly such neighbours did not diminish the necessity for maintaining a strong military force; yet the force had not been augmented since the independence of that population was established. Then several new Republics were springing up in South America, not far from our possessions; and yet even that circumstance had not led: the advisers of the Crown to recommend any colonial augmentations beyond the standard of 1792. The same observations applied to Canada, Nova Scotia, and Gibraltar. The only exception was New South Wales. His right hon. friend, the Secretary for the Home! Department, and another right hon. friend, the Secretary for the Colonies, could inform them what were the grounds upon which that increase was made, founded as they were upon the nature and increase of the population of that colony since the year 1792. After recapitulating the principal items and observations already; given, he proceeded to notice the apparent difference between the Estimates of 1822
780
and 1823. The reductions made in 1822 were an experiment which had failed, and the result was, that augmentation became necessary for the purpose of bringing back the military establishments of the country to their original level. The hon. Member for Aberdeen had said, that the force in 1822 was only seventy-one thousand; but he had left out of view that the colonial corps at that time made the number really amount to ninety-five thousand, so that the increase of the military establishment was much less than had been represented. With respect to what had been said on the subject of the Militia force, he had only to observe that he was quite sure the hon. Member for Limerick had never intended that that constitutional force should be put down. The Member for Limerick had thought the Staff useless, and recommended that it should be abolished; but he never proposed that the force itself should be put down. In accordance with that view of the subject, his right hon. friend the Secretary for the Home Department last year brought in a Bill, the object of which was to place the establishment of that force upon the same footing as that upon which it stood at the peace of Amiens, and as it stood in 1792. It was his (Sir H. H's) opinion that none of those hon. Members who had taken a part in the discussions on that subject desired to see that Constitutional force put down. In like manner, though there was no intention of putting an end to the Yeomanry Establishment, yet the expenses of it were reduced 10 per cent; on all other points he had no reason to think but that it was intended to keep them upon the present footing. In conclusion, he had to state that the saving on the present year would amount to 213,000 l.; and that, he submitted, was as large an amount of saving as the circumstances of the service would allow. He moved "That the amount of men in the current year should be eighty-eight, thousand, eight-hundred and forty-eight for the Land Service, exclusive of the forces employed by the honourable East India Company"
Colonel Daviesrose, but for a considerable time the noise of Members leaving the House rendered the observations of the hon. and gallant Member totally inaudible. He declared that he should not have troubled the Committee, were he not influenced by a deep sense of the importance of the savings which might be effected in those

781
branches of the public expenditure [renewed and increased disturbance.] He really should not have troubled the House with any observations whatever upon the subject, did he not persuade himself that his professional experience gave him some facilities in exposing what he conceived to be the imperfect arrangements and unnecessary expenses of that branch of the public service. It was with much regret, not unmixed with surprise, after all that had been said by his Majesty's Ministers, that he learned the saving was to be no more than 213,000 l. [much confusion and frequent cries of "Order order."]
Mr. Humesaid, if the Committee were not disposed to listen to the observations of his hon. and gallant friend, he should move and divide upon it, that the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again. If a full assemblage of the House such as that were not disposed to listen to the well-founded objections which his hon. and gallant friend had to offer to the Estimates then on the Table, the only remedy left was to move, that progress be reported. He appealed to the Chairman of the Committee, to keep the peace—He appealed to hon. Members for decency's sake to listen to what might be urged; and he hoped the hon. Members near him would support him in moving to postpone the consideration of the Estimates till the House could meet in a better spirit, and more disposed to listen to the dictates of common sense and common decency, and the obvious suggestions of duty in promoting economy, [hear]
Colonel Daviesthen proceeded to state his objections to the Estimates. He could not be brought he said to think that the country was in that high and pal my state which could warrant, the high amount at which the military force of the country was fixed in those Estimates. There never was a period at which our foreign relations placed us in a more disgraceful situation. [No, no] Our ancient Ally, the Turk, was prostrate at the feet of the Russians. If we looked to Spain and Portugal, we should find ourselves in no better condition; nothing there could flatter our vanity. If we looked westward, we should see that Spain was labouring to prevent the independence of the new countries which was so important to us in a commercial point of view. Was it to be supposed that, in making these observations, he sought to
782
recommend war? On the contrary, he was a warm advocate for peace; but if the country were to have peace, let it at least have the benefits and economy of a peace establishment.—The French army consisted of one hundred and fifty thousand men, and the English of only ninety thousand, and yet the total expense of the latter was more than that of the former, ft was therefore his intention to propose, as an Amendment, that they should allow the present establishments to Government for three months, instead of twelve; and if he should succeed in that proposition, he purposed to follow it up by a Resolution, that the Chairman be directed to report to the House that it was the opinion of that Committee that a Select Committee should be appointed to inquire what further reductions in the Army could be made, with a view to the reduction of the amount of taxation, and for the purpose of affording such relief as the distressed state of the country required. The state of Ireland was one point to which he wished particularly to call hon. Gentlemen's attention: if so much good had arisen from the great measure of Catholic Emancipation as had been anticipated, it was high time that they should begin to reduce the military establishment there. [hear.] They had been informed that there was less crime in the neighbourhood of Dublin than in the neighbourhood of London; and why, therefore, should not the military establishment there be diminished? At present there were eighteen thousand troops in Ireland, while, in his opinion, ten thousand would be amply sufficient to answer all purposes; so that in this quarter alone there might be effected a reduction of upwards of eight thousand men. The next opportunity for reduction that presented itself was the number of forces kept up in the Colonies, which in almost all instances appeared to him to be infinitely greater than was necessary. If the Ionian Isles were unavoidably so expensive, why should we retain possession of them at all? At the time that we took possession of them, there was an express stipulation entered into that they should be no charge to the nation. At all events, he thought that a reduction of one thousand three hundred or one thousand four hundred men might safely be made there, to which might be added a reduction at Malta of eight hundred more, at the Cape of Good Hope four

783
hundred or five hundred, and at Nova Scotia and the Canadas of as many more. Why was this country never to take a hint from the example set it by other nations? The whole amount of the American army as voted by Congress was but six thousand including the artillery. The United States were content with this amount, because they knew, that they could depend upon their Militia. But why could not England in the same way depend upon the Militia, which in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick were enrolled to the number of one hundred and forty thousand? The employment of natives for military service appeared to him to be much better than sending out troops from England, not only because it would be more economical, but likewise because natives were more accustomed and would be. better able to act under their respective climates, and other local circumstances: besides which, it would also be an act of justice to the soldier of this country, who by being sent for a term of years to out-distant colonies ran a great chance of never again returning to his native country. The way in which the government of those places was managed was likewise highly expensive and objectionable. Persons were sent out there to perform useless services at enormous salaries. If the right hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Hardinge) would take the trouble to walk into the United Service Club any morning, he (Colonel Davies) would answer for it, that he would find plenty of officers there who would be glad to go out and perform all those onerous Governorship duties at a very reduced price. [hear, hear! and a laugh.] It was his firm conviction that, as the Army was at present constituted, twenty thousand men might be reduced without any disparagement of its efficiency. It was not his wish to enter, on that occasion, into the general state of the country; but he might observe, that it was evident that the agricultural portion of this country could not flourish when the manufacturing was depressed and it was notorious that our manufactures were daily losing ground in foreign markets.—An attempt, he believed, was to be made to procure the repeal of the Malt-tax; but he would suggest to hon. Gentlemen, that if they wished for any chance of success in that attempt, they should endeavour to bring it on before any supplies were voted [hear hear]; for if the Government once
784
obtained the money they wanted, they would cry "A fig for all Repeals," and send them all about their business, [hear, hear.] He therefore, would suggest that there was no time to be lost: and for himself he would only say, that he was ready to renounce all party feeling, and to co-operate in any measure that he believed would tend to the general good. Had he been in the House on the first night of the Session he should certainly have voted for the Amendment, not that he wished to displace the present Government, (and the day was gone by when the Ministry would think it necessary to resign because they found themselves in a minority), but because he thought that that House could not too soon have expressed its cognizance of the distressed state of the country. Up to the present moment they had not heard one word as to the repeal of any taxes, and he wished to know whether any surplus revenue was to be applied to that object? The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving as an Amendment, "That the grant for Troops should only be made to the 25th of May 1830, instead of the 25th December 1830."
Mr. Hobhousesaid, he should support the Amendment of his gallant friend, although the address of the right hon. Gentleman was calculated to make converts of them all. For his own part he preferred a good weak Government to a good strong Government, because from the former concessions were sometimes obtained, while with the latter they had never been able to make head against abuses. It was from what was gained from a good weak Government that he expected the salvation of this country would one day or another be insured. The reason for which he rose to trouble the House at that particular moment was this: He wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman, who had that night come forward with an explanation of the general reduction of Expenditure for the year, whether it was or was not his intention to make any reduction in the amount of taxation? [hear, hear.] Whether, in short, it was the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to apply the amount of his saving to the use of the Sinking Fund, or to that relief from taxation which the people had a just right to expect? On these subjects they had not yet received any information; and as the right hon.: Gentleman had condescended, at almost;

785
the very commencement of the Session, to yield to the desire of the House, and lay before it those statements which were not usually made until near its close, he hoped he would carry his condescension still further, and let the people know whether they were to expect any relief from distress by means of the amount saved in reductions, [hear, hear] The hon. Member, in conclusion, observed that the reductions, in whatever manner they might be applied, fell very far short of what the public had a right to expect, and he should therefore vote for his hon. friend's Amendment.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he rose to say a very few words in reply to the questions of the hon. Member for Westminster. He confessed that if, consistently with his view of the duty he owed the public service, he could give an explicit answer to that question, he should be most happy to comply with his desire, The House had already seen the readiness with which he had acceded to the general desire, in laying before it, at the earliest period, a statement of the amount of reductions; and he trusted he might, from; that fact, be credited for the assurance that he should feel equally ready to convey information with respect to the application of the saving, did he not feel that it was totally out of his power to state what might be the ulterior views of the Government on that subject, [hear] He was quite sure the House would see at once that any statement of the particular purpose to which the saving might ultimately be applied would tend much to aggravate the distress it was intended to remedy, and lead to mischievous speculations in the trade or manufactures of the country. He begged, however, to assure them that he should take the earliest possible opportunity to put the House in possession of his intentions with respect to the application of the saving; but in the meantime he hoped they would not infer, from his silence in the present instance, that he intimated any opinion in favour or in disfavour of either of the applications of the money to which the honourable Member for Westminster had; alluded, [hear, hear]
Sir John Wrottesleyapproved of the silence preserved by the right hon. Gentleman on this subject, and observed, that if it were once known the saving was to be applied to the reduction of taxation, all
786
classes would look at this or that particular tax as the one to be taken off, and the result might lead to still greater distress by creating a still greater stagnation of trade in those branches of commerce or manufacture in which it might be anticipated the reduction would take place. [hear, hear.]
Mr. Westernrose amid cries of "question." He said he merely wished to express his belief that Ministers were anxious to make every reduction in their power, but he should be glad to know why there was a difference of six thousand men in the Estimates of 1822 and 1830?
Sir Ronald Ferguson, as a military man of some standing, and as one who had some knowledge of the Colonies, felt himself bound to say, he did not think they could do with a single regiment of the line less than the number they possessed The hon. Member for Worcester had made some observations on the number of men kept up for the Colonies, but he recollected well that the hon. Member, and a number of friends whom he saw around him, had, in 1822, complained of the miseries to which regiments were subjected by remaining so many years abroad without relief. A better system had since been adopted, and the regiments were regularly relieved. Before that, however, it was not unusual for a regiment of the line to rot away in the West Indies, or to remain fifty years in the East; but there were no soldiers now who could not claim relief after being a fixed time abroad, and was not entitled to remain five years and a half at home. How, he would ask, were these regulations to be preserved, and these regiments to be relieved, unless they had a competent force at home? The hon. Member for Worcester had recommended the use of the colonial regiments, to save the expense of troops of the line. He (Sir Ronald) had seen a good deal of these colonial troops, and a more useless body of men he never knew in any country. It had been recommended to them to incorporate the officers of the line with the colonial troops; but he thought the experiment would be useless. They had the 6th regiment, the African corps, and the West-India corps; but although those regiments contained many highly honourable men, it was found, in too many instances, that

787
they were officered by persons whose pecuniary embarrassments rendered it inconvenient for them to remain in England, [hear]
Colonel Davis, in explanation, said he knew the colonial corps were, in many cases, a set of the greatest outcasts in the Army; but he asked if the East India colonial troops were so bad, or if it were not practicable to adopt the system, without the necessity of officering the regiments in the manner alluded to?
Sir R. Wilson, after complimenting the lucid analysis of intricate accounts produced by the Secretary at War, observed, that he did not think the number of men for the Colonies too large, although it might be another question whether it were expedient to retain so many Colonies. [hear, hear] The Secretary at War had stated the amount of men required for India to be twenty thousand. Now, he thought the East India Company should pay the whole expense of these troops; and if it did not, in his opinion the subject ought to be under the consideration of the Committee engaged in considering the arrangement for the renewal of the Charter of the Company., [hear]
Sir Henry Hardingesaid, that the East India Company paid 60,000 l. towards the expense of the regiments of the line in India; but he confessed he did not think that sum enough, and he thought it was a fit subject for consideration.
Mr. Stanleyobjected to the amount of men retained to supply the place of those in the Colonies, which he recollected very well the Secretary at War stated, in his examination before the Finance Committee, to be in the proportion of four to six—that is, that for every sixty men we had in the Colonies, it was necessary to keep forty in this country. He hoped, however, the hon. Member would not press his Motion to a division, because it would imply a want of confidence in the Government, which the statements and hints of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that evening, if he had not misunderstood them, did not deserve. If, however, the hon. Member proposed the appointment of a Committee to follow up the plan of the Finance Committee, and consider what reductions could be made, he should have his cordial support. If the hon. Member pressed his Motion to a division, he would vote with him, although he hoped not to be called on to do so.
Lord Althorpthought the roops of the line might be reduced; and although those of the colonies were not so good, in the present state of the country they might be found sufficient. If the Amendment were pressed, he should vote with his hon. friend.
Sir H. Viviandefended the Estimates, and contended that the Cavalry, the effective services of which had recently been very apparent, were reduced as low as it was possible to reduce a force which could not easily be again raised if once disbanded.
Mr. Humesaid, the vote of that night involved the question of whether the country were or were not to have any relief. Could any Member of that House say that his constituent or constituents, if he had more than one [Hear, and a laugh], were not distressed, then he might vote for the Estimates. It was admitted that the deficiency of the year would amount to 1,700,000 l.; and when they considered the difference between the establishments now and in the years of peace preceding, and recollected the tranquil state of Ireland, he thought every man in the House whose constituents complained of distress was bound to support the Amendment.
Mr. Maberlywas of opinion, that if the Finance Committee, with a mass of evidence before it, had not been allowed to prosecute the subject of reduction, there was no hope of any good from the establishment of another Committee. If the question were to be decided only with reference to the convenience of the Army, there would be no reduction; but it was not by the convenience of the Army that the question ought to be decided. He would say, that the Guards might be made available, and then some Regiments of the line might be diminished. He pressed on the attention of the House the propriety of making every reduction possible, and declared his intention to vote for the Amendment.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, he could not give a silent vote on the occasion, and he was anxious to state, that he could not consider it consistent with his public duty to vote for the Amendment which had been proposed by the hon. Member opposite. He was quite convinced of the necessity which existed for retrenchment and reduction in every quarter, in order if possible to relieve the distresses of the coun-

789
try; at the same time he felt that relief was not be attained by the reduction of any of our effective establishments below that point at which, under the existing circumstances of the country, it seemed fit and expedient to maintain them; and looking at the considerable possessions of the Crown of Great Britain in all parts of the world, he was not disposed to think that it would be expedient at present to reduce our Military force beyond the point: stated by his right hon. friend the Secretary at War. It was quite a different question whether, upon any review of our Colonial system, and of the expenditure connected with their several establishments, the local expenses of the Colonies might not be reduced, or their resources rendered more available for their own support. That was quite a different question, and he did not consider himself as expressing any opinion regarding it by his vote on the present occasion. He thought; his right hon. friend had proposed a considerable reduction, though he was himself well aware of the difficulty of making reductions in those Estimates. He perceived that under almost every head some reduction had been effected, and that, he knew, could not have been done, without great labour and a frequent revision of all the Estimates. He should abstain at present from making any remarks upon the reductions which had been stated by the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It would be necessary for the House to have further information on that subject before it entered upon its consideration. He was glad, however, to hear that so much would be effected in that way.
Mr. Laboucheresaid, he should certainly vote for the Amendment. He found it difficult to persuade himself that five thousand men were necessary for the preservation of the provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, [hear] He did not think the enormous military establishment in Canada necessary, and its reduction was certainly due to the people of England, and was equally desired by the population of British North America. [hear] He complained of the principles upon which the government of the Canadas was conducted. If those provinces were properly governed, their own Militia might be substituted in the place of the present military establishments, and they were perfectly able and willing to defend
790
themselves. He would state one fact illustrative of the manner in which Canada was governed. He happened to know that in the colony of Lower Canada there were no less than four hundred Militia officers degraded, under the administration of the late Governor, Lord Dalhousie, simply for attending a meeting which was held there for the purpose of petitioning that House—a right which, if they had not exercised, they would not have been worthy of the name of British subjects. [loud cries of hear, hear] On the proper occasion he should not fail to express to the House his opinion of the system of government pursued in our North American provinces, and lay before them the feelings of the inhabitants of those provinces on that subject.
Sir H. Vivianremarked that there were four regiments of Guards in this country always ready for foreign service.
Mr. W. Duncombesaid, the country was looking with the greatest anxiety for retrenchment, and he was convinced that the reductions proposed by his Majesty's Government would not at all satisfy the people, but would cause infinite disappointment throughout the country. He was sorry to hear the declaration from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he could not say at present that he should be able to come down to the House to propose any reduction of taxation.
Sir George Murraywished to say a few words, in consequence of what had been; stated by some hon. Members in the course of the debate. The hon. Gentleman opposite said, that the Canadas were governed upon a garrison system. To show that was not the fact, it was sufficient to state that the Military force there now was the same as in 1792, though the population had considerably increased since that time, and the possessions of the Crown had been enlarged, not by the addition of new territory, but by the bringing into cultivation that which had lain waste and neglected. We had since then had a quarrel in that quarter of the world, and it was obviously necessary to maintain our Military establishment there at least upon the scale of 1792. With respect to the case of the officers of Militia mentioned by the hon. Member for St. Michael, all he (Sir G. Murray) could, state to the House regarding it at present was this—that the case of these officers had been referred to the present Governor,

791
the circumstance having occurred in the time of his predecessor, and he (Sir G. Murray) could assure the hon. Member, that though it was impossible that these officers could at present be replaced, in consequence of their places having been filled up by other individuals, there was not the smallest objection to their return whenever places should become vacant for them, and no stigma whatever rested upon their character or conduct. [hear, hear] The hon. Member opposite (the Member for Aberdeen) had contended for a further reduction of the military force in Ireland, and had gone back to 1792, to compare the force then required in Ireland with that maintained there at present. But the hon. Member should recollect that the circumstances of that country materially differed at the two periods. At the former period to which he had alluded, the state of one class of the population of Ireland in relation to that of the other, was not the same as at present, or had been till very recently. The Catholics—that is the majority of the population of Ireland,—had recently been combined together, in consequence of the existence of causes which he hoped were now buried in oblivion. That led necessarily to an augmentation of the military force in Ireland; and though he felt perfectly confident that the great measure of last Session would render in time the presence of such a force in Ireland unnecessary, he should not press for the too quick reduction of that force at present. That force had not been maintained in Ireland to keep down the population of that country, but as a military power standing between the two great hostile parties into which that population was divided; and though eventually it might be reduced, it would be imprudent to effect that reduction too suddenly. The honourable Member had also called for a reduction of the military force in our colonies, and here again he (Sir G. Murray) would resort to the same argument that was applicable to the case of Ireland. Perhaps, in comparing the situation of Ireland with Jamaica and our other West-Indian colonies, where the population was divided into two different classes, he might be drawing the picture with too strong colours; but the same argument at all events applied here too, for it was necessary to maintain a large military force in our colonies to prevent the danger and
792
cruelty that would follow from the contests which might otherwise occur there. The right hon. Baronet, after expressing his full concurrence in the praise bestowed by the hon. Member for Abingdon upon the regiments of the line, expressed his doubts whether they would be as fit as the Guards for the service which the latter at present performed. The Guards appeared to him the best force for service in the metropolis and its neighbourhood; and as it was necessary that a peculiar body of troops should be always attached to the person of the Monarch, the Guards, he conceived were best fitted for that duty-It would greatly injure the regiments of the line to employ them in service about the metropolis; and the continual changing of them would render them very ineffective for such service when compared with the Guards. The gallant Colonel opposite had recommended the employment of native troops in our Colonies, and he had referred to the efficiency of the native troops in the East Indies. But he should recollect that the circumstances of the East Indies did not at all apply to our West Indian colonies, and that if the latter possessions were garrisoned by native troops, such troops would consist of the worst description of soldiers and officers,—that they would have no feeling for the honour of the British Army, and that they would be swayed by local connexions, instead of entertaining that strong attachment which always existed in the breast of the British soldier for the country of his birth [hear]. After some observations from an hon. Member whose name was not known, and a few words from Sir R. Inglis, the import of which, owing to the noise in the House, was not understood,
the Committee divided, when there appeared: For the Amendment 93; Against it 225; Majority against the Amendment 132.
Mr. Humethen moved, that instead of eighty-eight thousand eight hundred and forty-eight men, the number be seventy eight thousand eight hundred and forty-eight.
Mr. C. N. Pallmersaid, he was one of those who had refrained from voting with the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) upon a former evening, though he had felt it impossible to vote against him. He had held a suspended opinion, founded upon the hope that his Majesty's Ministers would that evening have come

793
down with some satisfactory measures of reduction of expenditure and taxation. A reduction of expenditure had been brought forward, and he was thankful for it. As to a reduction of taxation, there had been an omission which, he feared, should be rather called an admission that no taxes were to be reduced. This would be a grievous and cruel disappointment to the suffering people of this country. They would be mortified and irritated beyond measure. The hon. Member for Callington (Mr. Baring) had talked of preserving a Sinking-Fund. It was the first business of the House to sustain a sinking people. To save was a good thing, but to starve was a very bad one; and if the House were disposed to go on, night after night, without passing some strong vote, the Session would pass over and nothing would be done. Let those who supported such a system look to its consequences. It was a most unfair proceeding to mix up questions concerning the distresses of the people and the means of relieving them, with the question of who should or should not be the Ministers of this country. He disclaimed all such feelings. No Englishman could admire more than he did (and that was saying much) the noble Duke at the head of the Government. He wished that the success which had attended his military career might attend his political exertions. No man could admire more than he did many of the civil services which had been rendered to the country by the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department, who had in that office displayed talents, exertions, and skill, which had never been surpassed, perhaps never equalled. But he looked to measures, not to men. It had been said, let those who wanted reduction of taxation point out the mode of meeting the exigencies of the country. He (Mr. Pallmer) would not pretend to financial knowledge, but he could not help thinking that there were many modes of relief which had strong recommendations. Let the taxes which pressed unequally upon the poor and the rich be removed. Since the Member for Aberdeen had stated that the Post-office revenue had not advanced, let the House begin with themselves, and throw into the revenue the profits arising from the absurd privilege of franking,—let a portion of the enormous sum expended in the collection of the revenue be thrown into the public purse, and let the
794
burthen which must be borne be lightened by a more equal distribution of its pressure, under a well-arranged scheme for taxing all the property of the country to pay for its exigencies.
Mr. Hume, observing that the real number the Committee was called upon to vote for was eighty-one thousand, one hundred and sixty-four men only, he should alter his amendment to seventy-one thousand, one hundred and sixty-four. He said that in the year 1821 he had divided the Committee seventy-five times on the Army Estimates, as the noble Lord (Palmerston) well knew, for it had interrupted his parties; yet at the end of the Session, not one farthing of the expenditure was reduced. But an address to his Majesty was carried, and in two months after thirteen thousand men were reduced; and in the following year, 1822, the number was only sixty eight thousand, eight hundred. Now, however, the number was three-thousand more. He held this out to the House as a precedent.
Lord Althorpsaid, that he should be very willing to vote for a reduction of five thousand men, but he could not concur with his hon. friend in thinking so many as ten thousand could be reduced.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusonconcurred with the noble Lord in thinking that five thousand men might be spared; but if the Amendment were pressed to the extent of ten thousand, he should vote against it.
Sir H. Hardingeobserved, that although the hon. Member for Aberdeen had stated that the number of men in 1822 was only sixty-eight thousand, if he had recourse to his arithmetic, and added the Veteran establishment and the colonial corps, which were not included in the Estimates for that year, he would probably find the number in 1822 was upwards of seventy-five thousand.
Mr. Humeconsented to alter his Amendment again, by substituting 76,164, instead of 61,164.
A division then took place, when the number swere—For the Amendment 57; Against it 167. Majority against the Amendment 110.
The original resolution was agreed to.
Sir H. Hardingesuggested, that as the number of men was agreed to, probably the hon. Member for Montrose would have no objection to go on with the other resolutions, for their pay.
Mr. Hume and Mr. Maberlyobjected,

795
—whereupon the Chairman was ordered to report progress. The House resumed, and then adjourned.