Sitting of 9 December 1830

MINUTES.
New Writs. For the Borough of Newport, in the room of Mr. DOHERTY, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds:—For the Borough of St. Germains, in the room of the right hon. Sir H. HARDINGE, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
The Committee appointed to try the merits of the Petition of Herbert Baldwin, esq., of the City of Cork, complaining of an undue Return and Election for that City, reported Mr. DANIEL O'CALLAGHAN duly elected; and that neither the Petition nor the opposition thereto was vexatious or frivolous.
Petitions presented. Against Slavery, by Sir J. OWES, from the Methodists and other Congregations in various parts of the County of Brecon:—By Mr. KEMP, from a Parish in Sussex:—By Mr. W. PATTEN, from Mile-end-street Chapel, Liverpool, and from different parts of Lancashire:—By Mr. J. WOOD, five from places in Lancashire:—By Mr. EVANS, three from places in Derbyshire:— By Mr. ROBARTS, from Maudstone:—By Mr. PONSONBY, from Wimborne. By Mr. HODGES, from George Gunning, for an amendment of the Law regulating the Duties of Parochial Officers. By Mr. BUCKE, from Biddeford and Exeter, praying for a Repeal of the Duty on Coals; also from Exeter, against Hawkers and Pedlars. By Sir W. INGILBY, from Wm. Cobbett, for the repeal of the Assessed Taxes and Tithes. By Mr. O'CORMAN MAHON, from Drumline, county Clare, against assessing Catholics to pay Rates for Protestant Churches. By Mr. O'CONNELL, from W. S. Smith, a Chelsea pensioner, complaining of the stoppage of 5 per Cent out of the Chelsea Pension, and praying relief; from J. Thompson, the son of a freeman of Clonmell, complaining that he was unable to take out his Freedom, in consequence of the great expense; praying for Legislative Relief, from 105 Labourers, who had been driven, under the Subletting Act, from the neighbourhood of Tankerstown, in the County of Limerick; from the Inhabitants of Ardragoole, and three other places, for the Repeal of the Subletting Act; from Whitechurch, for the establishment of Poor-laws in Ireland; from the five Catholic Clergymen who had charge of the Chapel of Navan, in the County of Meath, against the Vestry Act; for a Reform in Parliament, from Ayr, and from two Societies of Friends to Reform, meeting at the Rotunda, Blackfriars road; from the Trades of Dublin, and from places in the Counties of Waterford, Kilkenny, Meath, Galway, and Dublin, for the Repeal of the Union; and from the Gentlemen of the Irish Bar, practising on the Galway Circuit, for an extension of the Elective Franchise in that Town. By Mr. J. WOOD, from Roscommon, for placing the Catholics and Protestants on the same footing in Corporate Towns as to the Elective Franchise; from Blackburn, for the Repeal of the Stamp Duties on Newspapers; and for Church Reform, from the Rev. T. Spencer.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Mr. O'Connellpresented a Petition from the parish of St. Michael, North Petherstone, in favour of Parliamentary Reform. The petitioners wished that Rotten Boroughs
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should be entirely done away, and he contended that no reform would be completed which left one rotten borough in the country, and which did not introduce ballot.
The Marquis of Blandfordseized the opportunity to express his great regret at the language which had been used by his Majesty's new Minister upon the subject of Parliamentary Reform—language which, though, perhaps, more prudent, was, to his mind, nearly as disheartening as was the language of his immediate predecessor. The great reformer of 1793, the man who laid upon the Table of that House that ever-memorable petition, which had been quoted with his name, as its author, ten thousand times all over the country—was it possible that he could have said this question now required much time and deliberation, particularly after declaring that he never would support the principles of universal suffrage—in which determination he (Lord Blandford) entirely agreed with him—and that he wished to stand as much as he could upon the settled institutions of his country, in which desire he also most fully concurred. How, then, could the Minister at the same time say that the task was one of no slight difficulty now. Then the close and rotten boroughs wore to be extinguished and annihilated for ever. Had the Constitution been unlearnt since that time? Were the disciples of this great master now to be told that he had not yet made up his mind upon the subject, that he could only talk "generally" upon that which used to be considered as his favourite hobby—that delay was necessary—that great consideration was necessary—and that the whole question was surrounded with no small difficulty? If the close and rotten boroughs were to be preserved, or if any of them were to be kept, then he (Lord Blandford) could understand how the question was full of difficulty. But if the principles of the petition of the friends of the people in 1793 were to be adhered to, and none short of these will, or ought to, satisfy the country—then he could see no difficulty in the matter, no cause for delay, which must be dangerous in the present momentous state of the kingdom. It was for these considerations that he did feel it to be his first and paramount duty to appear in his place last Tuesday evening, with the intention of lending his feeble support to the motion of the hon.

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and learned Member for Waterford. He regretted exceedingly that the hon. Member had abandoned the field to others— the more so when he called to mind the character of the proceedings of the committee on the Calne election; and when he reflected upon occurrences of a similar character at the election which had just taken place at Knaresborough. He would confess, that the unfortunate proceedings connected with these two boroughs under Whig domination were sufficient to excite in his mind considerable distrust and apprehension that the reform which was promised would ultimately prove far from satisfactory to the country. Reform, very extensive reform, was loudly called for, and must be conceded to the public voice. The delay of a single day was dangerous. With the delay would increase the demands. That which would have satisfied the country twelve months ago, had it been conceded, would not satisfy it now. What would satisfy the people this day would not satisfy them a month hence. There were two measures which appeared to him to require instant adoption, for the security of the country and its best interests. The first— reform, immediate, extensive, radical; the second, the no less speedy reduction of all payments and salaries to the scale of 1792. These payments had all been raised in consequence of the depreciation in the value of money. Now, when that money had been most fraudulently, ruinously, and, he would maintain, treasonably, raised to its former value, all payments and salaries—ay, and every other monied obligation of the country, must be reduced to their former value. If these things were not done, and that speedily, he would tell the present Ministers (from whom he really wished to hope for many measures of great reform and retrenchment, and towards whom, in making this declaration, he was not animated by any feelings of hostility)—he would tell them, nevertheless, that if these things were not done without delay, the country would be lost, the Crown would not be safe upon their Royal master's head, and they themselves would be implicated in the treason.
Mr. O'Connell,on presenting three other petitions in favour of reform, said, that he considered the project of reform which had been contemplated by the learned Lord, to whom the noble Marquis (Blandford) alluded, was not sufficient.
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He thought that men, and not houses, ought to be represented in the Commons House of Parliament. Although he (Mr. O'Connell) hoped that the Government would of itself bring forward some measure of reform, yet he would then give notice, that, if it did not immediately, he would bring forward a motion on the subject three days before the vacation. But should Ministers themselves propose any measure, which would not be a mere delusion, but which would be calculated to give the House its true character, as really representing the people, and honestly watching over their interests, he would support them to the utmost of his ability. If the subject should be longer delayed by Government, he would bring on his motion and divide the House, if he had no other support than that of the noble Lord who had last spoken. It was unnatural that the money of the people should be voted away in a House, the majority of which was nominated by the House of Lords. By no means without the ballot was it possible to prevent that nomination in the present state of these countries; and he could not believe that mode of voting would be opposed by any man but by those who desired to maintain the influence of the aristocracy over the votes of the people.
Sir Robert Wilsonsaid, he felt it imperative upon him to contradict the assertion of the hon. and learned Member who had imputed bad motives to all who did not profess to hold the same opinions with himself. The learned Gentleman had chosen to denounce as insincere and dishonest the avowed opinions of men whose whole public lives had proved their integrity to be quite equal to that of the member for Waterford himself. The ballot was opposed by Gentlemen who had come into that House with the sanction of their constituents for that opposition. In the House they did no more than maintain the opinions which they had professed out of it. It was well known, that in the United States of America the ballot had proved to be a deception—a cloak—and encouragement to corruption. By the privacy which it secured, it induced men to sell their votes. The most honourable men had pronounced the ballot to be fallacious and injurious; and, at this moment, there was more fraud practised in those States of America in. which the votes were concealed by ballot, than in those in which they were given

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openly. When the New States of Mexico were about to institute a Republic, and some of their wisest and best patriots deliberated upon the best mode of taking votes, the ballot was rejected. When the hon. and learned Member ventured to impugn the integrity of men as honourable as himself, and as attached to liberty, he arrogated to himself a license to which he had no title. For his part, he (Sir R. Wilson) had, he believed, throughout his life, done quite as much as the learned Gentleman for the advancement of freedom; and he, therefore, could not suffer such accusations, which applied to him, to pass unanswered. While he had the honour of a seat in that House, he would not allow any Gentleman's reproaches to daunt him, nor would he suffer any man to direct him in the discharge of his duty. He would be influenced only by a conscientious regard for the interests of his constituents.
Mr. Cresset Pelhamwished the question of the ballot to be fairly discussed. As yet he had heard in that House no cogent argument against it; but he did not say that his own opinion respecting it was decided. The times would admit of no delay in the consideration of Reform, and he hoped, that if the Gentlemen on the other side of the House did not bring that subject forward, the Gentlemen below him (on the Opposition Benches) would do so. At the same time he was quite willing to allow for due deliberation before they resolved upon the measure to be proposed.
Mr. Ruthvensaid, that in his judgment, the member for Waterford (Mr. O'Connell) had expressed himself on that evening with a moderation which it would do him honour to observe more generally, both in that House and in Ireland. He was sorry to see him often misapply the great talents which he was well known to possess; but he (Mr. Ruthven) was of opinion, that on that evening an unbecoming violence had been exhibited, in the reply which had been a few minutes ago made to some remarks of that hon. and learned Gentleman.. No man in that House differed more widely than he did from some of the opinions of the member for Waterford. But still he would say, that the hon. and learned Gentleman had not said anything which ought to be considered offensive.—[Sir R. Wilson. He did]—He (Mr. Ruthven) did not hear a word from him that could
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offend any man: but he did hear a violent speech from an hon. and gallant Member, which seemed to him (Mr. Ruthven) quite uncalled for. The hon. and gallant Member had made up his mind with sufficient decision respecting the ballot; and to him (Mr. Ruthven) it was matter of surprise the gallant General had not made up his mind on a subject of great importance to his constituents, which had been a few evenings since discussed in that House— he meant the Civil List. He would not have it imagined that he doubted the honour of those Gentlemen, who, now sitting opposite, had voted in support of the late Administration. He was sure that their motives were honourable, and that they voted conscientiously. He wished men who had a duty to perform to those who sent them into that House to come forward and vote as they thought right on such important questions: and he had no doubt that the gallant Member would explain to the satisfaction of his constituents, why, on the discussion of the Civil List, he had been absent. Although he thought, that the ballot would afford to voters a protection of which they stood in need, yet he was prepared to confide in the present Ministers, and he doubted not that they would redeem their pledge on the subject of Reform.
Mr. Grove Pricesupported the petition, and expressed his regret that the learned Lord, of whose talents that House had lately been deprived, had not taken an opportunity of bringing forward a Motion on the subject. He regretted too that the hon. and learned Member for Waterford had not brought forward his motion, for though he differed in many particulars form the learned Lord, and the hon. and learned Member, he was satisfied that the time was come when the question of Reform must be set at rest by conceding it.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that as he had seen the hon. and gallant Officer, who had been for a long time, he believed, member for Southwark, go out of the House before he (Mr. O'Connell) had an opportunity of replying to the remarks made upon him by that gallant Member, he waited until the last moment on the question before the House, in expectation of his return. As the gallant Officer did not return, he would, in his absence say a very few words on the subject. He should not imitate the speech

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of the gallant Officer, because it was characterised by a temper which he wished to avoid, and by great lack of argument. He denied, that he had said anything to provoke such an attack. He had certainly said, that those who opposed the ballot did so from a desire to maintain an influence over the votes of the people. He would ask, did the gallant Member mean to assert that those who desire to influence voters are dishonourable men? Was it not the fact, that men of the highest character in the country defended such influence on the part of the aristocracy, and insisted that it was indispensable to the well-being of the country. He did not feel himself called on to answer the speech of the gallant Member. His speech contained no one argument. What was meant by the assertion that the ballot was un-English? Was it to be called un-English because it would put it out of the power of any man to say to a tradesman, in soliciting his vote, "Unless you vole for me, you shall lose the custom of twenty families?" Was it un-English because it would at once remove the cruel and ambitious landlord from the temptation to punish the children of the voter for the honesty of their father, and drive whole families houseless upon the world? He (Mr. O'Connell) need not boast of what he had done for his country. He would let his acts speak for him. But he would say, that when the hon. and gallant General should have done for his country as much good as he might, without boasting, say he had done for Ireland, he would listen to his taunts without displeasure. Had he said anything which could reasonably offend, he would most willingly retract it. The cause of those who opposed the ballot could derive no benefit from such aid as the gallant Officer had offered to it; and it was needless for him to say more in refutation of a speech in which he had been so unprovokedly attacked.
Petition laid on the Table.

REPEAL OF THE UNION—PERSONALITIES.
O'Gorman Mahonsaid, that the Petition which he had the honour to present, was that of the inhabitants of Clondegad, in the county of Clare, praying that the Act of Union of Great Britain and Ireland be rescinded, and attributing to that measure the deep distress which at present prevailed in every part of Ireland. In moving that the petition be
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brought up, he would throw himself on the indulgence of the House whilst he said a few words respecting a matter in. which he was personally concerned. In such a case he would not occupy the House, if it were not one in which all the Members were equally interested with himself. For if a system of calumny and misrepresentation out of doors were not at once put down by exposure in that House, no hon. Member could defend himself against such attacks. If any man came forward in a bold and straightforward manner to impugn his conduct, he would cheerfully endeavour to satisfy him. As that was the first time he had had the honour of addressing the House, he hoped for that lenity which was usually conceded to new Members, and which, in his peculiar case, would be more especially needed, as he should feel himself under the necessity of trespassing upon their patience and indulgence at greater length than was customary upon the presentation of a petition, having to vindicate himself from a charge under which no Member of that House could permit his character to rest. As the circumstances to which he should find it necessary to advert involved a very heavy personal charge, he hoped, as a boon, that a hearing might be granted him, which, under different circumstances, he might claim under another denomination. The injurious attack upon his character to which he alluded, and which injured him both as a public and as a private individual, had been carried on under the mask of secret correspondence—a mode of attack, he was happy to think, as little recognised by the laws of that House as it was by the usages of respectable society out of doors. Though he might not be prepared to name the person who had been guilty of that false and scandalous attack upon his reputation, yet he was able to proceed thus far:—He was able to affirm, that a Member of that House was the guilty individual. He therefore trusted, that, as his place in Parliament was the proper situation from which a Member of that House should defend himself, the House would at least feel he was asking it to do no more than extend to him that indulgence which was due to a man who came fairly, openly, and above-board, to protect himself from charges dishonourable to those who preferred them, and deeply degrading to any man who could silently submit to

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the imputations they conveyed. Yet, notwithstanding all this, he should scarcely feel himself justified in addressing them at the length he intended, were it not that what he had to say involved an important principle, and one which interested every hon. Gentleman in that House. That of which he had to complain was put forth by means of ambiguous insinuations—put forth to the public through the medium of the newspapers. He felt that some apology was due to that House for seeking to make it the means of repelling an attack made outside its walls, but when it was recollected that he could—as he pledged himself he could—establish at that bar, by the most irrefragable proofs, that the correspondence in question proceeded, and could proceed from no one but a Member of that House, it was upon that ground chiefly that the sympathy, he hoped, would be extended to him, which, in similar circumstances, he should be most proud and happy to extend to others who might have occasion to rebut charges most false and injurious, or to vindicate their characters from imputations the most unworthy and discreditable. Besides those he had mentioned—any one of which would have been more than sufficient to plead his justification for trespassing upon the indulgence of the House—he could not but recollect that he was there, not alone the guardian of his personal rights, or to vindicate his private reputation—he stood there as the Representative of a great county, and that he should ill discharge the duty he owed to the constituents who sent him there, did he not repel with indignation the charges which had been conveyed through the channels to which he alluded. It had been charged against him, that upon a late important occasion there was some portion of his conduct which had been governed by the influence of the then existing Administration—that, in a word, he had been guided by the Treasury influence of the late Administration. That was a sort of charge to meet which it behoved him, not merely as an individual—not alone as the Representative of a great county, but for the sake of the other Members of that House; and it was therefore in an especial degree that he claimed their indulgence. He would repeat, too, that that was the proper place for him to do it, seeing that he had no alternative but to adopt that course, or engage in a paper war. Having premised
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thus much, and having stated generally the nature of the accusation which he had to meet, he would call upon the Member in question to get up in his place to repeat the allegation referred to, and bring forward proofs, if any he possessed. He defied that Member to the proof—he defied him to show that the charge was not a gross, deliberate, wilful falsehood. As he felt that the rules of that House did not permit him there to impute deliberate and wilful falsehood to any Member, yet he had not been prevented from contradicting it in another place, and in a different form. Now, as that Member had been apprised that such language was applied to him if he disregarded the opportunity which the present occasion afforded him of standing up in his place to defend himself, that Member must feel that he stood in a very invidious situation. [cries of "name, name.!"] He came there for the express purpose of bringing the name, and, if possible, the man before them. [laughter, and cries of" Order."]
Mr. Warburtonsaid, it was equally out of order for the hon. Member to allude to disorderly language spoken or written by him out of doors, as if it were actually uttered within the walls of that House. To adopt that which was out of order, was tantamount to a breach of order.
O'Gorman Mahonresumed:—He was perfectly ready to receive instructions from any hon. Member as to the observance of order in that House; he was, as they all must know, utterly inexperienced in the forms of the House, but he begged to call attention to this, that he had not there said a Member had resorted to a deliberate and wilful falsehood; he merely stated the fact, that he had so written out of doors, and he had no difficulty in asserting, that the Member alluded to would be acting a most pusillanimous part if he did not instantly avow himself in that House as the author of the publication complained of. Surely he was not out of order in referring to what occurred elsewhere, when he did not repeat it in the House in a disorderly form. He merely stated that strong declaration of falsehood as to the charge made against him of lending himself to the views of the Duke of Wellington's Government. In speaking of that Government, then, he could not be open to any accusation of devoting himself to the interests of a Minister. The noble Duke and his friends were

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now out of office. Those honorable and right honorable Gentlemen were now no longer at the side of the House from which he then spoke. He could not, then, be accused of being under Treasury influence, when he tendered to the noble Duke, on his own behalf, and on behalf of the Catholic gentry of Ireland and of England, the warmest expressions of his gratitude for the been of emancipation conferred on his country, by the prevention of civil war. He made that assertion then for the purpose of more effectually branding with his contempt the charge brought against him. He had not the slightest hesitation in saying, that the Duke of Wellington had conferred a deep obligation upon men of all parties; but he begged to add to that assertion, that he never received any proposition from that Ministry, or any member of it, or any one having the remotest connection with it. He regretted exceedingly that the noble Duke had not, at the commencement of the Session, made up his mind to those measures which, being expected from the present Administration, procured for them his most hearty and cordial support. He deeply regretted that the noble Duke had not enabled himself and other independent and liberal Members to rally round the late Administration. He still more regretted that, as a Catholic, he was not enabled to demonstrate his gratitude by supporting the Administration that conferred upon the empire the great been which entitled him to a seat in that House. He was no seeker after pensions or emoluments— he was no place-hunter—he merely stood up in that House to defend his own character, his rights as a Member of Parliament, the rights of his constituents, and, finally, to express his gratitude to the head of the late Government, to whom he unhesitatingly said, that both England and Ireland were deeply indebted. He was proud to avow himself an old Agitator —he knew the state of Ireland, and he had not the slightest difficulty in affirming, that the great measure of the late Government saved the country from civil war. Yes, he was an old Agitator, because he felt deeply the disabilities under which his brethren and himself laboured. Many a time had he sat below that bar, pining under the ineligibility which excluded him from coming above it, though no act of his, or of his country, had rendered him unworthy of that honour. There was no
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stain on them as a body or as individuals, and all they prayed for was eligibility; the Duke of Wellington saved the country at a critical moment, and for that great act the noble Duke had won his warmest gratitude. He was no professional man— he was no barrister, lawyer, or attorney; he came there as an honest man, representing worthy constituents, to speak what he knew of his own knowledge, and give utterance to those feelings which any right-minded man in the country must entertain. Had the great been of emancipation been deferred, what could have saved Ireland from the horrors of civil war, with the example of France before her eyes rescued in three days, and, added to that, the example of Belgium? Subsidised, as the Irish were from America, and with examples like those on the Continent before them, what but the great measure of the noble Duke could have saved the country, especially when England herself was in a flame? Had the measure been delayed, Ireland, instead of accepting it as a boon, would have thundered at their gates and enforced it as a right. In such an event, emancipation would have been thanklessly extorted, instead of having been gratefully received as a boon, proceeding as it did, from a sense of justice and expediency. No man who was acquainted with the state of parties but must know, that if the noble Duke had not thrown himself into the scale against the Church, against the Borough-mongers, and the great anti-Catholic party in England, the measure could never have been carried. For that he felt deeply grateful to the noble Duke. Neither could he forget what was due to the right hon. Baronet who formerly represented the University of Oxford, than which a more distinguished object of ambition no man could propose to himself. He happened to have been at Oxford during the election which immediately followed upon the resignation of that right hon. Baronet, when the streets were literally blackened with the crowds of persons who came up to oppose him; and who evinced, in the manner of registering their hostility, little of that Christian charity to which they laid claim—little of that gratitude which was due from the Ministers of a peaceful religion—to bin: who had saved the country from anarchy and blood, and established in their room amity and concord. Having always ex-

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pressed those sentiments in private, he found himself all of a sudden assailed; and for no better reason than because he had not concealed them, he was to be taunted with being a Ministerial tool— with being a creature of the Treasury-bench. He was as independent of the noble Duke and the right hon. Baronet as they could possibly be of him; he was no pension-seeker and place-hunter; and while it rested with an anonymous pamphleteer to utter a deliberate— the unparliamentary phrase was always coming uppermost to his lips [a laugh and cheers] —had he not aright to complain of having his character attacked by those who were afraid to come forward and utter these charges in open day. It was a great injury to him thus to have his character filched away secretly, instead of men coining forward openly and fairly to state what they had to say. He would now, with the permission of the House, advert to one circumstance which gave something like a plausible pretext for what had been urged against him. The first vote of consequence which had been given in that House since he had the honour of a seat in it, was on the Civil List—that he had not voted on the popular side upon that question was entirely owing to his having been shut out. He was in that House till nine o'clock at night—he sat between the Hon. member for Middlesex and the hon. member for Westminster, Mr. Hobhouse and Mr. Hume [cries of "Order."] Between two such tutelary deities, it was scarcely to be supposed that he would have gone astray—it was scarcely to have been supposed that, sitting in such company, and at that side of the House, he could have supported the Duke of Wellington without being open to the charge of most arrant hypocrisy. He had been for many hours without tasting food. He asked the hon. member for Middlesex when he expected that the division would come on? The reply was, that the debate would continue for several hours yet to come. He left the House, and was back in forty minutes, but that short time sufficed to exclude him from the division. Thus it happened that he did not vote with the majority on that memorable occasion. So the fact turned out, and as it happened, he rejoiced that in the first political act of his life he was prevented, though without any previous intention on his part, from being accessory to a vote which proved
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fatal to the Government of that Minister to whom his country owed so much, and whose great measure had emancipated him and his brethren. He was sincerely glad that the matter had so occurred, merely as a gratification to his own individual feelings; but at the same time he claimed no credit to himself for the event; as it was not affected by any conduct of his. He would not much further obtrude himself upon the attention of the House, but he should ill discharge the duty he owed to them, as well as to his own sense of truth and justice, did he not, after what had fallen from him, state, that there was one Member of the House to whom his observations could not apply. He had the authority of a letter, which was not to be questioned, for stating, that there was one Member of that House who had exculpated himself from any connection with the charge in question. He had authority for stating, that he would be the last to indulge in the propagation of a calumny so utterly unworthy of any Gentleman—so wholly removed from all that could constitute the line of conduct which a Gentleman would propose to himself. The Member whom he thus wished to exempt was the hon. and learned member for Waterford, who, as he had denied the charge, he felt bound to exempt. That hon. and learned Member had come to a resolution well known to that House, and having adopted such a determination, he could not think of uttering any disrespectful epithet with reference to him. That hon. and learned Member had taken a trouble which he himself would not have taken—that of rescuing him from the charge by means of the very same medium through which it had been originally preferred. It had not been his lot to have exchanged one hundred words with that hon. and learned Gentleman during the last sixteen or eighteen months, but though he thus, upon the authority of the hon. and learned Gentleman's own denial, felt bound to exempt him from the charge, yet there did remain one Member of that House to whom his observations did fully apply, and that he begged to state openly and fairly, calling upon that Member to come forward and relieve himself from the imputation of giving rise to such a calumny as that which had been made the subject of his present observations. He would appeal to the tenor of his own short career, while he had the

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honour of a seat in that House, whether he had not been consistent, and whether he had not acted and voted in conformity with the principles which he professed? Antecedently to their coming into Office, he voted generally with those who were now the confidential advisers of the Crown. There was no ambiguity in any part of his conduct; he supported measures, not men; and the present Administration should have whatever benefit was derivable from the full confidence which he felt in them, until they should prove themselves unworthy of it by a departure from their public professions. He supported them for the liberal sentiments which had always marked the course of their public lives; he supported them as the friends of reform, retrenchment, and, above all, he supported them as maintaining the great principle in foreign policy of non-interference. Here, then, he would take his stand, and he felt gratified at being able to avail himself of that opportunity, at an early period, of expressing the confidence which he felt in the present advisers of the Crown, amongst whom he recognised the old, staunch, and consistent advocates of liberal principles. Amidst them it would be invidious to particularize; yet there was one name which he never could omit mentioning with that affection which was so justly accorded to it by all classes —he meant the venerable and beloved Bishop of Norwich. He trusted that in proceeding thus far he had not transgressed the bounds which the usages of the House set to observations made under circumstances such as his. He would, in conclusion, declare his determination to co-operate most cordially with the present Government so long as their conduct should agree with their past professions.
Petition read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

GRAND JURIES (IRELAND).
Sir John Newportrose, he said, pursuant to the notice he had given, to move several resolutions on the subject of Grand Juries in Ireland, and expressed his regret that the subject had not been taken up by some Member who could do it much more justice than was in his power. No man was more fully impressed with the great importance of this subject to Ireland, and with the necessity that some alteration should be made in the present Grand Jury system of that country; at the same
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time he felt that he had not strength sufficient to undertake the task of attempting that reform in the system which he knew to be necessary. He had, however, great satisfaction in knowing that the Government was fully impressed with the great importance of the local taxation of Ireland, and was disposed to do all in its power to remove the evils complained of. He had, therefore, the less repugnance to bring forward the subject in the absence of the right hon. the Secretary for Ireland, and were he to wait until that right hon. Gentleman should have taken his seat, it would carry the Motion much beyond that time at which it ought to be submitted to Parliament. The great importance of this subject, and the necessity of reforming the present system, had been both admitted by a Committee of that House. In the Report on the State of the Poor in Ireland, printed by order of the House in July, it was stated:—
"The Grand Juries of Ireland assembled at the Spring and Summer Assizes, in addition to their criminal functions, are intrusted with the entire civil administration of county expenditure. They levy the funds from whence the salaries of public officers, the expense of prisons, bridewells, and police are defrayed —they supply funds for the hospitals, infirmaries, lunatic asylums, and dispensaries— they decide upon making and repairing roads and bridges—they audit the accounts of all past expenditure under these several heads. Thus, the Grand Juries in Ireland are not only charged with the duties performed by the Grand Juries in England, but, in addition, exercise functions performed in this part of the empire by Magistrates at Quarter Sessions, and are intrusted with Powers reserved under the English system for the legislature only. The Grand Juries decide what works shall be undertaken—the price at which such works shall be executed—and the individuals who shall become responsible for their completion. The taxation levied for these various purposes, is raised from the actual occupiers of the land, and by collectors, who are armed with the summary power of distress and sale. At various times the subject of Grand Jury presentments has been considered, both in the House and in Select Committees. In 1815, 1816, and 1822, inquiries have been instituted from which some remedial measures have originated, but as the reports of both Houses of Parliament in 1825 specially directed the attention of the Legislature to the state of the Grand Jury laws, and as a further report was made to the same effect in 1827, your Committee feel justified in assuming that there is still an admitted necessity for a more effectual reform than has been yet applied to correct the acknowledged imperfections and abuses of the present system."
After this acknowledgement of a Select

911
Committee of the House, it was hardly necessary for him to take up any time in proving that some reform of the system was required. He should, therefore, only point out some parts of the system which, more than others, called for the immediate interposition of the Legislature. It appeared from returns which had been laid on the Table of the House, that the amount levied by Grand Juries in Ireland in 1810,was 607,000 l.; in 1821,755,000 l.; in 1825, 843,000 l.; in 1829, 845,000 l., and upwards. Thus the sums levied in about twenty years had increased upwards of 200,000 l., and such an immense amount of local taxation in a country like Ireland, called for the most serious attention of Parliament; more particularly as the whole of this revenue was raised and expended without any control whatever being exercised over it by those on whom the heaviest portion of the burthen fell. The powers of Grand Juries were originally confined to levies of rates for repairs of roads and bridges; gradually, however, they were extended to other objects, the expense of which ought properly to be borne not by the tenant or temporary occupant of the land, but by its permanent holders. The whole burthen, however, fell upon the tenant—who was not allowed to exercise any control whatever either in originating the tax or in directing its expenditure. It was a curious fact and well worth the consideration of the House, that a magistrate who had not the power to direct any expense in the county exceeding 40s. in amount, must possess a qualification of 100 l. a-year in land—while a Grand Juror, to whose power of taxation there was scarcely any limit, need possess no higher qualification than a freehold of the value of 40 s. A remedy for the defect in this part of the system might be found by altering that clause in the Act which directed the Sheriff to return the grand panel of the county. By that Act the Sheriff was directed to make, at Michaelmas, a return of persons possessed of freeholds of at least 40 s. in value, to form the grand panel, and if the qualifications for a grand juror were raised from 40 s. to 200 l. in land, it would have the effect of getting a set of men as grand jurors, whose interest it would be, not to tax the county in any case but one of necessity. One great objection to the present system of taxation, was its inequality—the occupier of bad land being rated just the same according to the
912
extent of ground, as the occupier of good land, and on this principle twenty-three men had authority to tax the county to an almost unlimited extent. He had reason to believe that it was the intention of Government to take some steps to remedy this evil, and the late Secretary for Ireland undertook to bring in a bill to regulate Grand Jury assessments. Whether the same measure was to be adopted by the present Government he knew not, but he hoped the remedy would be on an extensive scale. The present system was defective in almost every part, and could Dot be remedied by any very light measures. The reform ought to be sweeping and extensive. Believing that several other Members wished to address the House on this subject, who were much more able to do so than he was, he would then submit his resolutions, in the hope that the House would adopt them as the basis of the remedies it might be disposed to apply. He would first move that the Report from the Select Committee on the state of the poor in Ireland, presented the 16th of July this year, being a summary of the first, second, and third reports of the evidence taken before that Committee, be entered as read; which being done, the right hon. Baronet moved the following Resolutions:— "That it appears from returns laid before the House, that the amount of levies under authority of the Grand Juries in Ireland was in 1810, 607,000 l.; in 1821, 755,000 l.; in 1825, 843,000 l; and in 1829, 845,000 l. and upwards:—That the Grand Juries under whose authority these sums are levied, are impanelled at the will and pleasure of the several High Sheriffs, and are not subject to any other than the lowest freehold qualification of 40 s., for discharging the duties of that highly responsible office: That the whole of these levies are discharged by the occupying tenantry of the country, and are not subjected in any manner to their intervention or control except so far as may be effected by the circuitous and expensive means of traverse: That the powers of Grand Juries, originally confined to the formation and repair of roads and bridges, have been largely extended to various other highly important and most beneficial objects, of such a nature as more properly to demand a provision for their discharge from the permanent owner of the land than from the temporary occupant; That it is incumbent

913
on the Legislature to bestow their early and zealous attention on the examination of the whole of this system and the correction of its abuses—on the establishment of accurate and regular inquiry into the imposition and destination of these taxes, and the due control of their expenditure— on the equitable division of the burthens of this taxation between the several parties concerned, and on affording to the payers of the taxes adequate powers for checking abuses and controlling the expenditure proportioned to the rate in which they are contributory to their discharge."
Mr. Maurice Fitzgeraldconcurred with his right hon. friend in his view of the great importance of the subject he had introduced to the notice of the House, but he did not concur with him in the regret he expressed that it had not fallen into abler hands. No Member of the House was more competent to the task—and no member from Ireland had ever exerted himself more strenuously or more diligently than his right hon. friend in every measure which could promote the interests of his country; and particularly in endeavouring to reform the abuses which had grown up in its local systems. He did not mean to offer any opposition to the motion of his right hon. friend as there was quite enough on the records of the House, not only to justify, but to demand the interference of Parliament, for the purpose of correcting the evils of which he complained. It would be a great improvement if part of the power now exercised by Grand Juries were taken from them, in order to relieve them from much labour and improve the criminal jurisdiction which they exercised. With the jurisdiction however they had a power of taxation equal almost to that possessed by Parliament. Having this multiplicity of business, it was impossible that Grand Juries could give that attention to each of their duties which its importance demanded. This would be readily conceived when he stated, that it was in evidence before the House that, taking the number of presentments made by Grand Juries, and the time they had bestowed on the whole — the average amount given to each, did not exceed five minutes. Considering the great importance of some of those presentments, embracing, as they often did, very important local alterations, and involving an expenditure of many thousands of pounds, such a brief portion of time was far too
914
short for that consideration which ought to be given to them. It was impossible that justice could be done in such haste. One important matter in the Grand Jury system was, that Jurors might tax the county to any extent, without taxing themselves; for as the system now stood, Grand Juries might tax a county to an unlimited extent, without possessing a single acre of land in it. This was so much at variance with every principle of taxation, that if that were the only evil of the system, the House ought to devise some measure of relief. The whole system was condemned by a report of a Committee of this House. The defects of it were admitted by Grand Juries themselves, who had repeatedly called for the interference of Parliament to correct those defects. That part of the power of Grand Juries which enabled them to assess the county for carrying on works in order to give employment to the poor—ought to be amended, because it was wholly inadequate to its object. It was impossible for him to convey an adequate idea to English gentlemen of the peculiarities of this part of the Irish Grand Jury system. The principle acted on was that of giving to the least possible number of persons employment requiring the least possible quantity of human labour. Supposing that of the sum of 845,000 l. levied in the counties in Ireland last year, one half was applied to works for the purpose of giving employment to the poor, the other half being for the necessary expenditure of the counties, that sum, if applied on sound principles, would effect a very consider- able change in the condition of the labouring poor in Ireland. But how was it applied? Why, the whole of the public works in Ireland were carried on with a credit of six months; or payment was not made till the expiration of six months i after the work was completed. Those, therefore, who carried it on must have funds of their own, but the Grand-Jury work was a sort of charity, and therefore it was done at such a low rate of wages to the poor persons employed, as almost to defeat the object, that of giving useful employment to the poor. In this respect great reform was necessary. All public works should be paid for in ready money, and to a departure from that sound principle much of the misery in Ireland might be attributed. He owed an apology to the House for taking up so much of its time on a matter which might seem to many hon. Mem-

915
bers to possess only local interest; but he knew no question more important to Ireland than that of giving employment to its poor. It was also of considerable importance to this country, for the large numbers of poor who came over here from Ireland in search of employment, contributed to the distress now felt in many parts of England. He was bound to admit, that under the circumstances of the two countries, the great influx of Irish labourers here was prejudicial. At the same time, he would not have any restriction put on the free intercourse between the two countries, for they deceived themselves who imagined, that the evils of immigration from Ireland could be cured by any other remedy than that of giving the Irish sufficient employment at home. Another circumstance which he could not omit to notice, and he adverted to it because it must be looked in the face, in devising any measure for the employment of the poor of Ireland was the evil of absenteeism. That so many of the owners of the soil of that country should spend the incomes derived from it in other countries, was an evil of which Ireland was every day more and more sensible. There were many absentees, whose great liberality and laudable endeavours to give employment to the poor on their estates deserved great praise, and tended, as far as they were concerned, to lessen the evils of absenteeism; but these were only exceptions to the general practice, which they made appear so much the more mischievous. This at the present moment was a topic of much agitation and excitement in Ireland; and, without any desire to add to either, he must admit that the evils of absenteeism were such as no country in the world could long bear up against. They were evils which nothing could cure. He was disposed to deal with the subject in such a way as to mitigate, in some manner, the evils he could not wholly remove. As he could not compel the absentee to reside in Ireland, he would at least oblige him to do that which he would be disposed to do of himself if he remained in Ireland—contribute to the means of giving employment to the poor. Ireland was so peculiarly circumstanced, that with the greatest national advantages for the profitable employment of capital in commerce, as well as in manufactures, she was devoid of that capital which would call forth her great natural resources. This evil absenteeism
916
had tended to increase and aggravate. He knew that it was a favourite theory with many gentlemen who viewed the influx of Irish poor here as an evil—that the establishment of a system of Poor-laws in Ireland would prevent that influx. No opinion could be more erroneous; and he would pledge himself, when the proper time came, to prove, incontestibly, that the establishment of Poor-laws in Ireland would greatly increase the influx of able-bodied Irish poor into England. He hoped that English gentlemen would be brought to consider the subject more attentively, and he was persuaded that they would admit that neither this nor any other system would be sufficient to do away with the evil of want of employment in Ireland—that nothing would cure that want, but employment itself. In the reports to which his right hon. friend had referred, certain principles were laid down with respect to employment, in every one of which he fully concurred. Under the last Administration it was his intention to bring forward a plan for the employment of the poor in Ireland. It was not a plan hastily thrown out, but the subject of serious and attentive consideration for eleven years. He submitted it to the noble Duke lately at the head of his Majesty's Councils, and to several Members for Ireland, all of whom expressed their approbation of it in strong terms. That plan had the sanction too of his right hon. friend (Sir R. Peel), and it was intended to bring it forward after the great question of relief from civil disabilities on account of religion had been settled. It had also been submitted to the Marquis Wellesley when in Ireland. The only difference between the Duke of Wellington and himself on the subject was this, the noble Duke wished the introduction of the measure to be cautious and gradual, whilst, in his opinion, it ought to be immediate. It would be recollected that in the years of scarcity in Ireland, various measures were adopted by Government for the relief of the poor —and here he must do his right hon. friend lately at the bead of the Home Department, the justice of noticing the very great readiness with which he listened to and promoted every humane suggestion made at the time, to relieve the poor in that country. Sums of money were at that time advanced for the purpose of giving them employ-

917
merit, to which his right hon. friend assented; but at the same time strongly pointed out the danger of such precedents, and shewed that they ought not to be followed on future occasions. In that opinion he concurred, as a general principle; while it must be admitted, that the advances were a great relief for the time, and had a very salutary effect on the condition of large masses of the labouring poor. He admitted, that the public taxes ought not to be permanently applied to local improvement. Any capital so applied ought to be repaid with interest, by the county for the benefit of which its application was intended. Still he must contend, that from the sums of public money which had from time to time been advanced for public works in Ireland, much benefit had been derived; and experience shewed, that such advances might be repaid with interest. But these sums were generally applied through commissioners who had not a permanent existence, and who did not possess sufficient knowledge of the country. The interposition of Government on those occasions was a political interposition. Any measures of that kind he should deprecate in the application of funds for the employment of the poor which should have no reference to party politics, nor party patronage. He did not say, that the advances he referred to were so made; but he mentioned this, for the purpose of expressing his conviction that everything of the kind should be studiously avoided. The want of resident proprietors being the great evil affecting Ireland, to remedy that as far as possible, measures of a general and extensive nature should be adopted. If, as one of these, he should propose an advance of capital, it should be on the principle of repayment, with interest. He would not take it from the public treasury, nor make it part of the funded or unfunded Debt. The capital to be applied to the improvement of Ireland should be laid out so advantageously as to yield a profit over and above the sum necessary to pay the interest and the principal of the loan. In the various counties in Ireland, there are different classes of tenants, and different modes of levying the assessments in each county. The present modes are objectionable, as they constitute a heavy tax on the occupying tenantry. It was not consistent with the spirit of humanity to compel the
918
pauper population of Ireland to pay these rates. He could reconcile it neither with a feeling of humanity, nor with a sense of justice, that such a system should be tolerated, that the tenant should pay all the amount of the tax, and the control over it rest entirely with the landlord. He gave notice some time ago of his intention to bring the matter before the House, as it had occupied a considerable portion of his time and attention; and being then a member of the Administration, he had reason to believe that his plan met with the approbation of the Government. No efficient measure could, in fact, be brought into operation without the assistance of the Government; and he should be happy to abandon to it the measure he proposed. The Ministers might make use of it with any amendments they pleased to adopt; and he would most readily give up all the details and documents he had prepared on the subject. He should have proposed an alteration some years ago, but he found considerable difficulty in adjusting the mode of assessment; especially as it regarded the different forms in which lands were held. He could not overcome this inconvenience until, in the course of his inquiries, he met with a very able man, whose knowledge on all matters connected with English taxation and statistics was unequalled, who pointed out a course which obviated most of the difficulties connected with taxation of this nature. The plan was founded on practical inquiries into the situation of Ireland — as to the best means of making its resources available, and of improving the condition of that country, whose situation he deeply lamented. Through his means, a mode of overcoming one of the greatest difficulties Ireland had to contend with had been devised, and there was every prospect that we should be able to overcome it. The great difficulty was in equalizing the mode in which the rate was levied, and taking care that it was properly distributed over the whole district. The remedy suggested was not only applicable to the particular circumstances of this case, but also to all property and all occasions. Suppose you had a proper valuation of the land and the soil made—and this by-the-bye, was being done at the present time, but which valuation must be completed before the plan suggested could be carried into operation, it was proposed that on the valuation of the land being completed, the different

919
parishes should be rated according to the interest they had in the land, or according to the difference of the value of their tenure. It was proposed to do this on the same principle, as the insurance-offices advance money on mortgage. The money raised on each parish by the most just method he could invent, he would place in the hands of commissioners, to be appointed by the Government. Such gentlemen would be above the local prejudices and the local interests which now sometimes led the members of Grand Juries astray, and always exposed their conduct to imputations. Such a tax, too, it was obvious, would be subject to revision at different periods; and such a plan would completely remove all the difficulties of the case. By this means the tax could be shifted with ease from the tenant to the owner. He trusted Government would take the plan into its consideration. It was his intention to bring it formally before the House, but, on referring to the Notice-book, he found that there was not a vacant day until after the adjournment, which, he understood, was to take place next week. Being without information on this point, he had been compelled to avail himself of this opportunity to take part in the discussion on the motion of his right hon. friend, and to introduce some topics not perhaps directly connected with the matter immediately before the House. The subject was of material importance, as far as it was connected with the situation of Ireland. It was impossible to let the matter rest as at present. There had been several committees and numerous reports on the subject, which had led to the belief, that the House intended to do nothing but report, and had no idea of legislating on it. He believed, however, that it was the wish of the present Government, as it was the intention of the late Administration, to bring forward some practical measure. The condition of Ireland would daily grow worse, if Government did not turn its attention to the subject, and bring forward some measure for the improvement of its local institutions. He would not say, "act hastily and unadvisedly," but unless it did something, the danger and risk would increase. If there were a spirit of mischief existing in that country, he could trace it to nothing else than a want of employment; and until that was provided, the condition of the people could not be improved. Some means ought to
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be adopted to make available their resources, both natural and artificial—resources hardly equalled in any country in the civilized world. It was the bounden duty of the Legislature, as well for the sake of England as of Ireland, to exert itself to accomplish that. He wished to place Ireland in such a situation as that she could have a part, both in the difficulties and the resources of the State. She had hitherto suffered from the subtraction of her produce by her absentee proprietors, and her manufacturers had been ruined, to support that narrow system of monopoly which had been considered necessary for the improvement of England. The House must not merely improve the condition of the people, but also effect a complete alteration in the system of policy. He trusted that, during the long recess of the holidays, Ministers would consider the matter, and soon after the re-assembling of Parliament be prepared with some measures to submit to the attention of the Legislature.
Sir John Walshdid not mean, after the, able statements of the right hon. members for Waterford and the county of Derry, who had entered so fully into the details of the subject under the consideration of the House, to encroach upon its time by stating the grounds which induced him to support the Resolutions of the right hon. Gentleman. He should be glad to see the right hon. member for Kerry bring forward those ulterior measures which he appeared to contemplate, for the system was so bad as to render anything short of a complete revision an inadequate remedy. He would venture to notice one expression of the member for Kerry's speech—an apology which he made, but which he (Sir J. Walsh) hoped he would never think it necessary to repeat, for occupying the attention of the House with an exclusively Irish question. As an English Member, he wished to declare, that he did not understand the meaning of such an expression. There was no such thing, politically speaking, as an exclusively Irish question; every Irish question was more or less an English one. One reason for a reform of the present system, which had great weight with him, and which neither of the right hon. Gentlemen had noticed, was the moral effect which would be produced upon the peasantry by the removal of so many causes of suspicion and prejudice against their superiors. It

921
was very important to every State, that its institutions should be such as to cultivate the relations of harmony, confidence, and affection, between the upper and lower classes. From the unfortunate, the false position, in which the Grand Juries were placed—from the unlucky manner in which petty, private, personal objects were mixed up with the performance of their public duties, they could not escape the imputation of personal motives in the discharge of their public duties. A new line of road sometimes described a most inexplicable curve in approaching the lodge-gate of one Grand Juryman. A new and valuable contract for some public work was conferred upon the tenant or dependant of another. Such charges had been grossly exaggerated; they formed, he believed, the exception, not the rule, and Grand Juries had generally been conscientious in the performance of duties which ought never to have been confided to them. But it would be an important benefit, resulting from the abolition of the system, that these grounds of suspicion and jealousy in the peasantry would be entirely removed, and that the gentry would no longer be exposed to the odium of such misrepresentations. To one remark he wished to bespeak the attention of the hon. member for Waterford; the consideration, namely, of this measure, with reference to another, of which that hon. Member was almost the solitary advocate. This subject was of great local importance to Ireland; it was a measure of substantial amelioration; it was brought forward on one side, and met by the other with the most eager and sincere desire to adopt the improvement. He might venture to assume, that every Irish question was discussed in the House with a zealous desire to decide it on its merits, with an anxious wish to benefit the sister country, and with a total absence of all party feeling— of all private and personal motives. He would put it, however, to any Irish Member—to any one conversant with the former history of the Irish Parliament— whether, if the hon. Member's domestic legislature were then sitting in its place at Dublin, such would be the spirit in which this question would be considered? When the House remembered how many local interests were concerned, how intimately the Grand Jury and the Irish Representatives would be connected, it could not doubt that this question would excite
922
numberless intrigues, and the greatest irritation and excitement throughout the country. This view, of the justice of which he felt a strong conviction, might perhaps convince the hon. Member that important benefits might be derived from a general, comprehensive, and powerful Legislature, which a local Parliament could not confer.
Mr. James Grattanwished, before he alluded to the Resolutions of his right hon. friend, the member for Waterford, to complain of the conduct of his right hon. friend, the member for Kerry. He had sat long in Parliament, and long had this system been complained of; year after year had it been confirmed by laws,—it was, in fact, the creature of the laws,— and yet his right hon. friend had never till now proposed his plan of relief. He only now stated, that he had a plan, when the other right hon. Gentleman had submitted his Resolutions to the House. That plan, however, seemed of little value, for before it could be made available, a general survey must be made of Ireland. [Mr. Fitzgerald said, that was not necessary.] He certainly understood his right hon. friend to say so. The House had just ground of complaint, that subjects of this sort were brought forward for discussion, night after night, producing no practical good. On this occasion his right hon. friend came forward with his plan, and communicated to the House a series of Resolutions, which he called upon it hastily to sanction. This was not acting consistently, to call upon the House to agree to Resolutions condemning a system, without immediately suggesting another in its place. It ought not to be forgotten, that this system had been growing up for several years, and had been encouraged by numerous Acts of Parliament. The Grand Juries in Ireland might be considered as so many local Parliaments, and their loss would be materially felt. But let him not be misunderstood, he was no advocate for the present system of Grand Juries; though he certainly believed that, in most instances, the members of those bodies were as anxious properly to discharge the duties of their office, as any hon. Members of that House. The right hon. Gentleman wished for a new mode of levying the local taxes, and said, that not a single gentleman was examined before the committee up-stairs who did not exclaim

923
against the present system. That might be the case, but he was not, therefore, justified in calling upon the House to censure and destroy a system which had been in force upwards of one hundred years, without first providing a substitute. At present the people were enabled to procure, by the means of Grand Juries, those measures for which, under other circumstances, it would be necessary to apply to Parliament, which. is always done in England. If Grand Juries were abolished, their duties must be transferred to some other bodies. The right hon. Member stated, that in consequence of the mode in which the Grand Jury assessments were levied and distributed in Ireland, little good was done, but had he devised a better system? Some of the evils might be easily remedied, but he objected to such a sweeping change, especially as it was not clear that good would result from it. The question would be settled in a much more satisfactory manner, and in a much shorter time in Dublin, where the Legislature could readily examine witnesses, and procure documents, and the matter could be discussed much more advantageously there than in this country. The subject, however, had no reference to the question of the Union. The Grand Juries were a sort of local Parliament, which, perhaps, might be spared, and he should be willing to take the powers from them if he could find bodies better able to discharge their duties; but he was not aware, nor had the right hon. member for Waterford mentioned, any bodies that could supply their place advantageously. The situation of Grand Juryman was far from being enviable, for their duties were obnoxious and disagreeable. The office was of such an unthankful nature that few persons who serve would not willingly resign. The charges, indeed, brought against those bodies were, for the most part, utterly destitute of foundation. He had served repeatedly on Grand Juries, and had often seen instances of the most disinterested conduct. That, however, was not the time to go into the details of the merits of the establishment. His right hon. friend, to whom Ireland was under such great obligations, had not, perhaps, much practical knowledge of Grand Juries, and he had exaggerated their defects. He stated that, on an average of a few years, 800,000 l. had been expended annually by these bodies, and that nearly one-half
924
was expended for purposes for which it was not originally intended that Grand Juries should provide, or on objects highly useful and important, but which ought rather to be paid for by the permanent owner of the soil. The Grand Juries, however, ought not to be blamed for these acts, as they were compelled by law to make the presentments on oath; and he believed, in most instances, it would be impossible to make them with a greater regard to the public service than at present. He would not take upon him to defend all the acts of those bodies, and he should not be sorry to see an alteration, but he should most strenuously oppose any measure which would throw the power into the hands of Government. Any system of Boards appointed by Government would not only be found to be infinitely more expensive, but also liable to the strongest objection on principle. Any system which would take the power out of the hands of the resident Irish gentlemen would not be desirable, as it must have a tendency to increase absenteeism. The great object to be aimed at for Ireland was, to give the gentlemen of Ireland an interest in the management of the country. His right hon. friend, he knew, was averse from absenteeism, and, like him, conceived that absentees were great evils; but his plans would increase absenteeism. To take away from the gentlemen the power of regulating the local taxes would lessen their motives to reside in the country, and would increase the number of absentees. On the whole, the evils were great, but not so great as to require the system to be entirely abolished. It would be idle and vain to talk of a beneficial measure for Ireland, which had not for its basis to induce gentleman to reside on their estates. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. M. Fitzgerald) talked of his plans for the improvement of Grand Juries, but why had he not brought some measure forward for that purpose during the thirty years that he had been in Parliament, instead of letting the evil increase to its present magnitude? He was satisfied that an Act of Parliament containing a very few words, would do more to correct the evils of the system than a voluminous, or rather a number of voluminous Acts. He had himself brought forward a proposition to levy the rates on an improved system, three years ago, and to his surprise the right hon. Gentleman

925
had forgotten it. He was, probably, not in the House at the time, for he certainly took no part in the Debate. One evil, which imperiously called for the interposition of the House, was the power exercised by the Commissioners for Public Works in Ireland. The expenses of these fell extremely heavy on the Irish counties. The Grand Juries made a presentment, money was advanced from the Consolidated Fund much too liberally, and a heavy debt was contracted. With respect to the Resolutions, the right hon. member for Waterford called upon the House to agree to his declaratory propositions, condemning the present system, without at the same time bringing forward his remedy; and the House would act very inconsistently if it agreed to these propositions, and did not pass some measure to remove the alleged evil. It would be a great reflection on the House, that it admitted the existence of a great evil, and did not immediately provide a remedy. The principal improvement which could be made in the constitution of Grand Juries would be, to have a more frequent change of members. The same persons serving nearly on all occasions as Grand Jurymen had been the cause of a great portion of the prejudice on the subject. It was considered that they formed a sort of packed body—a species of corporation, and the consequence was, that their proceedings were viewed with great jealousy. This was a difficulty which could easily be remedied; for instance, by electing so many gentlemen from each Barony every year, and by a constant change taking place, the feeling that they did not assess themselves fairly would appear, as it really was, utterly groundless. With respect to the expenditure, a much greater and more efficient check might be had by increasing the number of the returns to be made by the Surveyors of Works; but the complaints on this point were greatly exaggerated. These were the principal objections, all of which could be easily remedied. There were, he admitted, great evils, under the present system; but at the same time he was bound to say, that equal or greater objections might be made to all the systems yet devised.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgeralddenied, that he had made any attack on the character of Grand Juries. He had admitted that the members of them had good intentions, but the system under which they worked
926
was so bad that it was impossible they could execute their duties.
Sir Robert Peelwished to make a few observations on the course of the proceeding rather than on the substance of the Motion. The right hon. Baronet had proposed five Resolutions in detail, calling on the House to affirm several important matters. The House should be careful how it affirmed those matters; and he would therefore suggest, that it would be better, before affirming those matters, that the House should see the Resolutions in print, and have an opportunity of well considering the subject. He objected, then, to the course adopted by the right hon. Baronet. The object of the Resolutions was, to declare that the lessee should not pay the cess, which should be paid by the lessor. He wished the House of Commons to declare that the occupier ought not to pay the assessment; but surely the interval between the House of Commons making that declaration and passing a bill to impose the payment on the other class should be as short as possible. When the right hon. Baronet remembered the agitated state of Ireland, he would himself see the propriety of not condemning one system by a resolution of that House before the Legislature were prepared to establish another. His right hon. friend (Mr. M. Fitzgerald)knew that he did not agree to all his views. He objected to establishing any Board, whether under the Government or not, to regulate local taxation. Local taxation should, he thought, be regulated by local authorities, which he preferred to any Board. The object, he thought, should be, to establish a local authority, but to place that authority under certain restrictions, and subject its acts to revision. Certainly he objected strongly to the present plan of allowing one individual to name all the members of these little Parliaments, as the Grand Juries were called. All the objections to Select Vestries applied with great force to a body of twenty-three persons, selected by one individual. He wanted to see the people of Ireland take an interest in such institutions themselves, and he should like to see them establish, with certain checks, institutions for local expenditure such as were in England. He did not wish to see the body to which this power was intrusted very numerous —it might nearly approach the number of an English Grand Jury. He wished next to separate the judicial power from the

927
power of levying taxes. If twenty-three gentlemen asserted that a tax was necessary, or if they, as the taxing body, should feel objections to any tax proposed, he should not be disposed to prefer the decision of any other body, particularly if they were taken from the land-owners, and the land-owners were to be, as was proposed, the rate-payers. On this body, however, there ought to be a check. It should have the absolute power to levy taxes for useful works; but, to have an assurance against jobs, two means might be employed so as to ensure that the money was expended properly. He would give a veto to some Board on any project involving a large expense—such as several thousand pounds; and he would not allow the work to be done, except by public contract. He knew no other body so likely as this to determine correctly what works were useful. Then there ought to be, on the part of the public authority, a power to compel the Grand Jury to give an account of all the money expended. He could not see in this case any objection to give such a power to the Government; and he did not know why the Treasurer of the County should not be called on to render an account of all the money he was authorised to expend. These were the great principles on which he would proceed. With respect to advancing money for public works—though he admitted that, in particular cases, it had been advantageous—he could not give his assent to it as a general system. To give 100,000 l. to relieve urgent distress might be necessary; but to employ the public funds to find employment for the people, was likely to stimulate population beyond its due proportion. It would interfere with the natural demand for labour; and, as the stimulus could not be continually and perpetually applied, it must end in a convulsion and greater distress than it was intended to relieve. It could not confer a permanent benefit on the country. Moreover, to advance money on a great scale for carrying on public works, would not accord in any manner with the general financial system of this country. In conclusion, the right hon. Gentleman apologised to the House for the length of his remarks, and expressed a hope that they would not be considered as at all tending to undervalue the exertions of the right hon. Baronet, or lessen the importance of the object he had in view.
Mr. O'Connellthought the views of the right hon. Baronet who had just sat down deserved attention. Every person admitted, that the present system was monstrous. He had never heard any Gentleman defend the system except the hon. member for Wicklow. The principle was bad. It was taxation without representation, and those who levied the taxes were not the payers. In many instances the Grand Jury had no concern with the law. He had known a case where taxation to the amount of several thousand pounds was levied by a Grand Jury, five of whom had been discharged under the Insolvent Debtors' Act. Was it not a shame that ninety acres of bad land should pay as much, as had been stated by a right hon. Gentleman, as 1,000 acres of equally good land? Great praise had been frequently bestowed on the Parliament for its attention to Irish matters, but here was an abuse existing for thirty years without any remedy. Was Ireland to be grateful for that? He did not think she ought to be, unless her gratitude was political gratitude, which had been defined, to be a lively sense of future favours. He admitted the propriety of having local authorities, but those who assessed the taxes should be the taxpayers. Ireland was divided into baronies, and the plan he should recommend would be this:—He would have each barony select two men when any public works were necessary, who should make a presentment for them to the Assistant Barrister, and he would give to these two men and the Assistant Barrister the power of settling the maximum of the assessment. Their presentment should go before the Grand Jury, who should have no power to enlarge it; but if they disapproved of it, they might diminish it. The Grand Jury should then have the power to order the works to be executed, but by no other means than by contracts publicly announced and publicly formed, and the contractors should be obliged to pay their labourers in money. This would be a constitutional means of improving the system. He would say, that at present the discontent in Ireland on account of the Grand Jury system was excessive, and could not, perhaps, be exceeded. He was happy to hear the right hon. Baronet's good wishes to-night, but he would rather have had some good deeds from him before he went out of Office.
Lord Althorpagreed with all the Gen-

929
tlemen who had spoken as to the great importance of this subject; and admitted, that it was necessary that the Government should turn its attention to the matter. The right hon. Baronet who had introduced the subject, confined himself to the evils of the Grand Jury system; the right hon. Gentleman who spoke subsequently (Mr. M. Fitzgerald) had discussed many of the peculiarities in the condition of Ireland. He meant to confine himself to the subject before the House, and he would say, that the Government would be very happy to receive the plan which the right hon. Gentleman said he had formed for the improvement of that system. It was admitted that the evils of the system were great, and they were principally caused by the fact, that the rates were imposed by persons who had to pay no part of them. That was not what ought to be. It was contrary to sound principles, and was open to many objections. He did not, however, think the plan recommended by the hon. and learned member for Water-ford would answer the object proposed. It would be very complicated, and be exposed to many difficulties. In England the parish roads were indeed kept in repair by each parish, but each parish was liable to be indicted if the roads were not kept in good order. In Ireland, he believed, the great difficulty was, to find fit and proper persons to execute any local system, and constitute local bodies. There was no difficulty of that kind in England, where the people had long been accustomed to manage their own affairs. He would not pledge himself to any decided course, nor give a decided opinion what ought to be done. He believed, however, that his right hon. friend, the Chief Secretary for Ireland, had a Bill prepared to improve the Grand Jury system, and the Government hoped that it might be carried into effect with great advantage.
Mr. G. Dawsonadmitted, that the principles of the system were bad, but he denied that the Grand Jurors who carried it into execution were corrupt. The materials were good, but the plan was bad. Landlords ought to have the power of levying these taxes, and that system would be no improvement which took that power from them. It was proper to keep up their connection with the county, and their interest was deeply concerned in the proper administration of the county funds. Under the present arrangement of
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the business transacted before the Grand Juries, it was impossible for them to devote more than two minutes to the consideration of each presentment, and it therefore followed, as a matter of course, that great laxity and many abuses crept into the administration of the county-rates. In his opinion, much of the difficulty at present experienced by the Magistrates, and many of the abuses of the system, might be got rid of by appointing a number of Magistrates in each county to assemble twice a year, for the transaction of no other kind of business than that connected with presentments, and the application of the rates collected for public purposes. This would, he was satisfied, be productive of the best effects; for he could not agree with those who thought the Irish counties were wantonly and extravagantly rated for county purposes. In point of fact, a much larger sum was collected in the English counties, under the name of County-rates, than the whole of the sums which were said to be so illegally taken in Ireland. By a return made a short time ago to that House, it appeared, that the County-rates of England amounted to something considerably above 2,000,000 l.; and yet the system which prevailed in England was that which it was wished the Legislature should extend to Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by protesting against the plan of the Knight of Kerry, for placing the funds of the counties under the control of Commissioners.
Mr. Wyseadmitted, that the members of Grand Juries were very honourable men; but such was the vicious system, that the most honourable men could not act virtuously, at least their conduct could not possibly have the appearance of virtue. The evils of the present system were immense, and they all arose from those who levied the rates and administered them being irresponsible. He was opposed to the system suggested by the member for Kerry; but he approved of the principle of that suggested by the member for Waterford though not of its details. He thought the better plan would be, to divide the powers of the Grand Juries into two parts, leaving to the Magistrates the judicial power which they at present exercised, and permitting the rate-payers to elect from the whole body a certain number, to whom they would be willing to commit the administration of

931
the county funds. In fact, he would give the rate-payers the power to tax themselves, by means of a committee of Magistrates elected for the year; but he objected to a board of any kind, as a delusive scheme, which would perpetuate the abuses the Legislature wished to remove. The principle he would follow in reforming the Grand Juries of Ireland should be the same as he would follow in reforming that House—he would give to the people a full and an open election of those who were to represent, or to tax them. He was satisfied that by no scheme, though many palliatives might be found, would the evil be effectually cured, unless the principle were acted on, of giving to the rate-payers a full and efficient control over the whole i of the money raised. While he was on this subject, he would say, that he approved of the system of loans which the right hon. Baronet had condemned. He thought, that, in the present condition of Ireland, it would stimulate the people to industry, and provide permanent employment, without burthening the country with any of the evils of pauperism. All that Ireland wanted was, to have her revenues properly brought into use, and he was quite satisfied that advantage might be procured, from the advancement of money by way of loan, without the loss of a single shilling to the lender. In consequence of the declaration of his Majesty's Ministers, that they were determined to take the subject under consideration, he would abstain from troubling the House with any further observations; but he would take leave to say, in conclusion, that he was happy to find that the administration was disposed to turn its attention to the condition of Ireland, and he hoped the people of that country, when they heard that Parliament was in reality and in good earnest occupied with those questions in which they had an interest, would feel that the day of retribution which they wished for was come, not in wrong and in bloodshed, but that it had brought forth an earnest desire to promote their welfare as a division of the empire, and to develope, to its utmost extent, their almost unbounded national resources.
Mr. Owen O'Connorexpressed the gratification he felt at finding that at length we had a Government which was willing to lend its attention to the complaints of the people of Ireland.
Mr. W. O'Brienwas of opinion, that
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the plan recommended by the Knight of Kerry would, on inquiry, be found the fittest for the proper management of the County-rates, and the best calculated to get rid of the evils of the present system. Objections might, of course, be raised to commissioners, such as the right hon. Gentleman proposed; but he was convinced that the plan would destroy the improper powers vested in the Grand Juries; and if the right hon. Gentleman (the Knight of Kerry) had entered more into a detail of his plan and of the course to be pursued by the commissioners, he thought many of the arguments against it would have been obviated. One good effect of placing the management of county-rates in the hands of commissioners would be, to ensure ready money to the labourer, while it would, at the same time, secure the effectual execution of all public works at half the present expense.
Mr. Spring Ricesuggested to his right hon. friend the propriety of withdrawing the Resolutions, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had declared it to be the intention of Government to take the subject under its immediate care.
Sir John Newporthad not entertained a hope that the Resolutions would be carried; but he was satisfied with the attention bestowed on them, and would withdraw them.
Resolutions accordingly withdrawn.

THE LIVING OF STANHOPE.
Mr. Charles Wynne,before the noble Viscount (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) proceeded to move for the committee on Public Salaries, begged leave to ask him a question on a subject in which he believed the public took a peculiar and extraordinary interest. He wished to know if Ministers persisted in the determination of their predecessors, to permit the living of Stanhope to be held by Dr. Phillpotts, in commendam with the See of Exeter?
Lord Althorp,in reply to the hon. Member's question, said, that his Majesty's Ministers, upon finding a great objection prevailing throughout the country on the subject of such an union, had felt it their duty to advise his Majesty to abstain from issuing the instruments required for that purpose.

SALARIES OF PUBLIC OFFICERS.
Lord Althorpthen rose to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the

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Salaries of Offices held during the pleasure of the Crown, of which he had given notice. He said, it was the firm determination of his Majesty's Ministers to enforce the most rigid economy, and to effect a thorough retrenchment in every department of the State; but in order to leave them the power to enforce this economy and retrenchment with a proper effect, and in order to enable them to call on others to make sacrifices, his Majesty's Ministers felt it their duty to begin by making sacrifices themselves. Under ordinary circumstances, it was undoubtedly better that the Government should take on itself the responsibility of proposing to Parliament those reductions and alterations which it thought expedient, without throwing the labour of the research on a committee of the House; but Ministers conceived that they were less competent to come to a conclusion with respect to the amount of their own salaries than they might be with reference to those of others. They thought, therefore, that the more satisfactory course would be, to leave the question of the amount of their own salaries to an independent committee of the House; "and I hope, (the noble Lord continued), that the committee which I mean to propose will be found to be as independent of the Government as any committee can be constituted in this House. I am well aware of the necessity of satisfying the country, that it is the sincere and honest intention of the Government to carry the reductions in all the public establishments to the utmost extent which may be found consistent with a due regard to the public service. Looking, however, at reductions of this kind, I think it necessary to say, that they may be, perhaps, carried too far. I think it would, indeed, be exceedingly unwise and impolitic that we should reduce the salaries so low as to leave no office capable of being held, unless by a man possessing a large private fortune. That is, I think, a principle which the most ardent lover of economy would not wish to see carried into effect. The principle of economy Ministers are determined to carry into effect is this, that wherever the mere patronage of the Government is concerned, there shall be no limit to the reductions, but where the wants of the public service require efficient officers, then economy shall be only a secondary consideration, carried as far as it can be
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in accordance with the principles of the Government, but never permitted to interfere with that which they conceive to be demanded for the proper conduct of public business. Thinking, then, that the whole question can be most favourably brought under the consideration of a committee, and believing as I do that no objection will be offered to such a motion, I propose to appoint one, because I think it is called for by the unanimous voice of the country. I feel it my duty, at the same time, to warn those who are looking with anxiety to the effect of reductions, that they must not expect any extensive relief from anything which can be taken from the salaries of the Government officers. Much as such a measure may be desired by the advocates for economy, I think it right to say, that it will produce but a very small diminution in the amount of the taxation with which the public is burthened; but small as may be the relief, it will produce that which is of much more importance in the present state of the public mind; it will give satisfaction to the people, and convince them that economy is with the present Government no idle profession. It will prove to the people, that the Ministers are determined to make the necessary retrenchment of expenditure, and display the sincerity of their intentions by beginning with their own emoluments. Having said so much respecting the public opinion, the objects of the Government, and the mode in which it proposes to carry those objects into effect, I would now add, that the same reasons which have prevented us from coming to any decision with respect to the amount of the salaries which we conceive necessary for the support of our respective offices, have induced us to refrain from naming any person as a member of the committee who may be supposed to be in the slightest degree under the influence of the Government. In the nomination of the committee, I have, indeed, felt it right to adopt as a precedent the course pursued by my noble friend, Lord Lansdown, in the year 1806; who, in appointing a committee to inquire into the state of the Finances, selected no Member who held an office of any description under the Administration. I believe, however, it will be necessary, as a matter of form, that my own name should be placed on the list; but I trust that the reasons and objections I have stated will, with the com-

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mittee itself, form an excuse for my non- attendance." The noble Lord concluded by moving the appointment of a "Select Committee, to inquire what Reductions can be made in the Salaries and Emoluments of Office held during the pleasure of the Crown by Members of either House of Parliament, and to report their Opinion and Observations thereupon to the House."
Mr. Bankesthought the Ministers might, perhaps, have adopted a better course, if they had come down with a proposition of their own for the reduction of their salaries, rather than have thrown on a committee the ungracious task of determining what should be the amount. He did not, however, rise at that moment to apply himself to the question, but to ask the noble Lord if there was any foundation for the report of the intended removal of Sir Anthony Hart from the Lord Chancellorship of Ireland?
Lord Althorpsaid, he felt bound, in the first place, to apologize to the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Dawson) for not possessing the requisite information to answer a question on the same subject, which he put to him on a former evening. The truth was, that he had just returned from his election, and had not had an opportunity of communicating with the members of the Government until he took his place in the House. In answer to the question of the hon. member for Dorsetshire, he had now to state, that the Government felt it required an intimate and confidential assistant in the government of Ireland in the person of the Lord Chancellor, and they had, therefore, determined on making a change in that office; but they had taken such steps, and made such arrangements with respect to the removal of Sir Anthony Hart, that no real increase of the burthens of the people would be the consequence.
Mr. Bankes,in reply to this declaration, said, he felt himself bound at once to stigmatise this proceeding of the Government as a job of the most obnoxious kind; and as a job of an Administration which set out with such loud professions, and which placed its claims to public support on its principles of economy. He must say, that it excited his wonder and surprise, not unmixed with a feeling of deep regret. He had hopes that the Administration would have attempted to justify the expectations of economy which were
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so universally entertained; but the avowal of this job taught him that his hopes were vain. Perhaps he had said too much— more than he ought— until he heard the explanation that was promised; and he should, therefore, merely add, that he waited for it with impatience.
Mr. G. Dawsonsaid, that as this subject had excited a very general interest in England, as well as in Ireland, he hoped the noble Lord would excuse his putting to him another question connected with the rumour of another removal. Sir Anthony Hart, the present Lord Chancellor, made no objection, as far as he understood, to continue to hold his place; and he believed it was admitted by the Bar and the country, that no man was better qualified to perform its duties with honour to himself and advantage to the suitors. It should also be recollected, that Sir Anthony Hart was sent to Ireland purely and solely because he was not connected with any of its political parties, and because he was not disposed to meddle with any of the contending factions of the time—but they now heard, and he confessed he heard it with pain, that the Chancellor was to be replaced by a political substitute, whose inclination it was, and from whom it was required as a duty, that he should meddle with parties, and renew that hatred and dissatisfaction which had for some time been so happily repressed. This was not all however; he understood that it was also contemplated to give a retiring allowance to the Chief Baron, in order that he might be replaced by some other political friend of the Government, although that Judge was as competent as any other in Ireland to fulfil his duties, and no adequate reason could be advanced to justify his retirement. The consequence of all this would be, to saddle the country with two retiring pensions in order that the Government might place two political supporters in the place of the Lord Chancellor and Chief Baron in Ireland. He (Mr. Dawson) would not complain of this in ordinary cases, but when he was told that retrenchment was the one sole object of the Government, and when he found that Ministers rested their claim to public confidence, and their reputation as a Government, on the fulfilment of their pledges of economy; and when he found that one of their first acts was to displace two eminent Judges, who would be enti-

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tled to demand large retiring pensions from the public, he confessed he could not avoid expressing his surprise and apprehension. Now, one word more as to the apology of the noble Lord. The noble Lord said, that he was not aware of the intention of the Government until after he took his seat in the House. But were there no means of sending a letter to the noble Lord, acquainting him with the wishes of the Premier, before the measure was determined on? If there was not, what became of the responsibility of the noble Lord as Chancellor of the Exchequer? Was the Prime Minister to make arrangements so materially affecting the finances of the country without consulting the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was responsible, by virtue of his office, for the expenditure of the public money, and the fulfilment of the pledges of retrenchment? The whole matter might be capable of explanation, but in the present extraordinary appearance which it assumed, he could not give it his approval.
Lord Althorp,in reply to the last observation of the right hon. Gentleman, said, that the Chief Baron had already been twenty-five years on the Bench, and had expressed a strong wish to retire. He begged also to say, in answer to the right hon. Gentleman's charge of the wish of the Government to appoint political partisans, that the persons appointed to these situations were no political friends of the present Administration, but, on the contrary, men appointed by an Administration with which they had nothing whatever to do. The Government, therefore, had no personal motive to do wrong and it would be found, on examination, that they had promoted, in all cases, men never politically connected with them as a party. There might be an exception with respect to the Lord Chancellor. The right hon. Gentleman says, that the Lord Chancellor should not be connected with the opinions of the Government. Now, up to the time of the appointment of Sir Anthony Hart, the Chancellor had always been a political associate. It was necessary that he should be in constant communication with the Lord Lieutenant, to whom was intrusted the executive government of Ireland; and if he was not a person who could hold a confidential communication on the views of the Government in England, he could not efficiently perform the duties of his station. The
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appointment of Sir Anthony Hart was considered politic at a peculiar crisis, and because it was wished to avoid some difficulties connected with the Catholic Question? but if the Chancellor was not, in ordinary circumstances, the complete and confidential depositary of the views of the Administration, the difficulties attending the situation of the Government would be increased to such a degree as to be almost insurmountable.
Mr. Holme Sumnerobserved, that as it was understood that the Committee on the Civil List was not to proceed until after the holidays, it was evident that his Majesty's Ministers had determined, very manfully, in his opinion, to take upon themselves the responsibility of proposing a plan on that subject. He regretted, however, that on the subject now before the House, they had shown a disposition to withdraw from a similar responsibility, by proposing the appointment of a committee to consider it; and that on the plea that they were not competent or proper judges. He very readily allowed that the Members of whom the Committee was to consist would probably be free from Government influence; but if a committee was considered the best course in this instance, why not refer the Civil List to a similar committee, to proceed immediately to the discharge of their functions?—Why adopt two courses.
Mr. D. W. Harveysaid, he was surprised at, and regretted the speeches which had just been delivered by the hon. members for Dorset and Guildford, for they were conceived in a most ungenerous spirit. Had his Majesty's Ministers proposed a committee composed of themselves, or their immediate dependants, no hon. Members would have assailed the plan with greater vehemence or indignation. The course pursued by the noble Lord was manly, and indicative of good intentions. The Ministers proposed to effect economy by their own example, and at the same time to disarm those who might complain of its rigour by an appeal to their own privations, effected indeed, not by themselves, but at the instance of a committee selected from political opponents and unconnected parties. Economy in ministerial offices is to be the basis of general retrenchment, and it was impossible to deny that the plan proposed was the most impartial method of effecting both objects, and would obtain for its authors

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the esteem and affection of the country. But it was alleged that economy of this description, however sincerely or extensively carried, would work no sensible good, but rather excite groundless and delusive expectations. This assertion he would at once meet by a firm and unqualified denial. The saving itself would be something, but its moral influence would be of incalculable importance. It was the death-blow of corruption, and would speak comfort to despairing millions. The labours of the proposed committee would be the herald of the greatest benefit, for out of them other committees would be formed, whose inquiries would embrace millions of money, and legions of placemen. When he reflected on the hideous and frightful list of greedy sinecurists which had recently been published, ascending in its scale from the suspicious item of 1,000 l. to the inordinate and appalling sum of 10,000 l. a-year, increasing in amount as it approached to the total absence of all labour—with little to do by any, and nothing to do with by far the greater portion—which list exceeded in amount 2,000,000 l. per annum, being, in fact, nearly one-seventh of the entire expenditure of the country, apart from the interest applicable to the National Debt; he, for one, would not disguise the expectation, that the Committee would, by one stroke of indignant extinction, secure the instant saving of at least 1,000,000 l. yearly. Such a committee, when appointed, would ill discharge its duty—spread despondency through the land, and chill the sanguine, and, he trusted, well-grounded expectations of the people, if they did not promptly and readily reduce this disgusting army of placemen, at least one-half. But this was not the only list which must undergo the operation of the pruning-knife. There was another catalogue, not less objectionable in its character and origin, and whose recipients were more diversified and cringing; having for its minimum 200 l., and its maximum 1,000 l. a-year, out of which a corresponding saving might be effected. Cutoff and cut down this rotten list, and from the stem of an unsightly pensioner, a steady patriot would arise, for then every discarded placeman, and every defeated aspirant, would perceive that his own interest was inseparable from, and in strict communion with, that of his country. Reward real services well; but no longer let us endure an army of corruptionists, who
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live in idleness upon the industry of the people, and whose horrid reward of their peculation and servility, is little less in amount than one-third of the entire poor-rate of England. It had been objected, in the course of the debate, that the removal of Sir Anthony Hart, as Chancellor of Ireland, to make room for Lord Plunkett, and thus creating an additional burthen, by a retiring pension to the former, was a sad omen of ministerial economy. Now he was one of those who lamented the union of the office of Chancellor in either country with political duties, having always contended, that the Equity Judges, like those at Common Law, should be permanent and irremovable. Yet such was not the case, and he was fearful not likely to become so; while, therefore, it remained otherwise, he contended, that the new Government acted wisely in having no associates who did not actively sympathise in their grand plans of national reform. Even neutrality was dangerous. He beheld in the present Government an association of pure men with pure objects— and no men of suspicious feelings must be allowed to creep in, or keep in, their counsels. Thank Heaven! we no longer witnessed an unnatural coalition of heterogeneous elements, continued, through unworthy means, for a pernicious end; there were now no spies in the camp—no fine female form flitting down the back-stairs of the Court—no high Officer of State to approach the King, and distil his "leprous venom" in the royal ear. Whatever difficulties might encircle the infant Administration, they could find no excuse for tardy steps, or dubious measures, from the want of a confiding Sovereign, or a concurring Parliament; at least, if the present Parliament was refractory, they had only to appeal to the people, whose confidence they possessed, and whose esteem they had it in their power permanently to enjoy. For himself, he would say, that though he retained his old seat, he of late found himself amongst strange and uncongenial spirits, and was quite willing, upon a suitable occasion, to obey the Apostolic injunction, and "Come out from amongst them." [Reiterated cheers from all parts of the House, and much laughter.—The hon. member for Colchester spoke from the Opposition side of the House, surrounded on all sides by the principal leaders of the late Government.]

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—He quite understood the cheers of those about him, whose long habits of office led them to convert every expression of support into some unworthy expectation; still he would not be deterred from avowing his entire confidence in the new Ministers, and his determination, so long as their measures deserved it—and of which he had no misgivings—of giving to them, whether he was in or out of office, the full benefit of his vote and voice; for, in so doing, he felt, he was best serving his country, and obeying not only his own decided impressions, but also acting in strict conformity to the views and wishes of those to whose kindness and confidence he owed the high distinction of being in a situation to address the House.
Mr. Horace Twissexpressed his persuasion, that if his Majesty's Ministers wished to have the vote of the hon. member for Colchester, they must pay a higher public price for it than he fancied they were at present disposed to give. He did not rise to oppose the noble Lord's motion: quite the contrary. He supported it; not because he admitted the validity of all the principles maintained by the hon. Gentleman behind him, but because he thought the course proposed by the noble Lord honourable to his character, as well as consistent and proper. For himself, although he believed that during the last two or three Sessions retrenchment had been carried as far as, under all the circumstances of the case, it could be carried, yet he always cherished the hope, that in succeeding Sessions it might be carried still further. Of course the process would be continually diminishing the amount on which it would be practicable to operate. Now, however, at the opening of a new Session—at the commencement of a new Administration—when the noble Lord and his friends were unfettered by any extrinsic considerations, he thought his Majesty's Government were conferring a great benefit on the country, by proposing that this subject should undergo a strict and impartial investigation. Not that he believed that any very considerable saving could be effected (for he agreed with the noble Lord that the principal object was to satisfy the country), but that he thought it was exceedingly desirable to disabuse the public mind, and to expose the monstrous exaggerations and enormous errors which prevailed, with reference to official remuneration and emoluments. If the
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members of the Committee should be unable to render themselves popular by recommending a saving, the amount of which would occasion any great and permanent benefit to the public service, they might at least effect a great benefit, by establishing some principle on which the remuneration of the great Officers of the State should be assessed. In this respect he thought they might do a great public service; and with respect to any reduction of salaries which they might propose, he trusted that they would apply their recommendation to such salaries as had no correspondent labours, rather than to those which were given for efficient services.
Lord John Russellhad heard, with great regret, those hon. Gentlemen who, before the arrangement which had been alluded to had been completed in Ireland, had thought proper to censure it. He trusted, that when that arrangement was completed, it would be found economical as compared with other arrangements of a similar nature. But, undoubtedly, the moral and political character of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland was a consideration of far greater importance than the amount of any economy on that subject which could be effected. The hon. Member who had just spoken said, that he considered the principal object which could be obtained by the Committee which his noble friend proposed, was to allay the ferment in the public mind on the subject of official emoluments, and to show that official remuneration was, generally speaking, not more than adequate to official service. For his own part, he thought that his noble friend had taken the best course to refer the subject to the consideration of a committee of independent Members; and he agreed with the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, that there was much exaggeration in the statements respecting official emoluments, and that there was much which could not be subjected to retrenchment without a breach of national faith. But of this he was quite sure, that it would not be in the power of that Committee, or of the House, to satisfy the country, when they refused retrenchment even on the most solid grounds. The cause was, the manner in which the House was at present constituted. He was persuaded, that while there were so many Members in that House who did not enter it by popular election, so long would suspicion attach

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to the motives of the Members, even when they acted most correctly; so long would the people be prejudiced against their acts; and so long would the country withhold its confidence from them. For that reason, were it only for the sake of keeping the public establishments at the point at which they ought to be kept, at the point at which it was necessary, for the good and safety of the country, they should be kept; he wished for a solid, a substantial, but at the same time a temperate reform. He was persuaded that then, and not till then, it would be in the power of any committee of that House to allay, by their acts, the ferment in the public mind, with respect to the amount of official appointments and salaries. He looked forward with hope and confidence to the time when the Ministry of this country might refer to the consideration of a House, consisting of the genuine Representatives of the people, any measure which they might think necessary for the public service, in the full confidence that men chosen for their integrity and their judgment, in giving their approbation to such measure, would carry with them the confidence of the public that they had given it on solid grounds of public interest, and not on any considerations of a private character.
Mr. Keith Douglaswas quite of opinion, with the hon. member for Colchester—that the utmost practicable economy was indispensably necessary for the safety of the country; and strongly recommended that some means should be adopted for relieving the people from the distress in which they were involved by want of employment. He agreed with the noble Lord, that the best course was, to submit the subject to the consideration of a committee, and did not agree with the hon. member for Guildford, that it would have been better had Ministers proposed a plan of their own. There could be no doubt that public officers should be adequately paid for the efficient performance of public services; but in leaving this subject to the consideration of a committee, he thought the noble Lord had done much better than if he had originated any spontaneous and voluntary recommendation.
Mr. Jephsonwas understood to say, that the Government would have done better had it not followed the precedents set by other Administrations, and had
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taken the opportunity of separating the office of Lord Chancellor from any political attributes. The late appointments were, he believed, very unpopular. It had long been felt at the Bar of Ireland, that the legal appointments in that country were not the result of superior merit; and the recent proceedings would confirm that conviction.
Sir Francis Burdettsaid, that he should not have trespassed upon the House on this occasion, but he felt that he could hardly do justice to his constituents, or to himself, if he did not take the earliest opportunity of explicitly declaring his feelings with respect to the present Administration, of avowing his confidence in the Gentlemen who composed it, and of stating his belief, that there never had been any Administration in this country, which in so short a time (he might say, before they were well placed in their offices) had come forward so promptly, so earnestly, and so satisfactorily, in proposing so many advantages to the public, and had done so many acts in earnest of the sincerity of their professions, as the gentlemen to whom he should now have the honour—if they proceeded upon the principles which they had laid down, and pursued their course in the same way they had hitherto done—of giving his unequivocal support in every way in his power. The new Administration offered new hopes to the country, and he hoped it would be the means of relieving it from the consequences of the uncontrolled misgovernment to which it had till now been subject. With respect to the particular subject now before the House, he could not conceive how it could be better dealt with, than in the way that was proposed, nor did he see the advantage of Ministers coming forward, and placing themselves in the invidious situation of reducing emoluments. He agreed with the hon. Member who had just sat down, that no benefit would arise to the public from a niggardly scale of economy, or from withholding a fair remuneration for services which ought to be not merely amply, but, he would say, generously and liberally paid. The posts to which duties of this nature were attached ought to be held out, not only as objects of ambition, but ought to present such objects as would induce men of ability to employ their talents and their energies in the public service, rather than in any other of the pursuits in which, from their

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station in life, they might be likely to engage. He should be sorry to see clerks, in official situations, not handsomely and generously remunerated; and, so far as regarded the great Officers of State, he did not himself conceive that any retrenchment could be made, or, at all events, it could only be to a very limited extent. In most cases the salaries of office did no more than meet the necessary expenses that were attendant upon the appointment. He must therefore. protest against that niggardly economy which would produce nothing to the public, and would be in itself ungenerous and unjust. But the larger economy alluded to by the hon. member for Colchester was of a different kind. With that this Committee would have nothing to do, and the public could derive no benefit from its labours in that respect. But this Administration had to do with it; and on that subject they were bound to proceed as they had promised. A noble Lord below him had truly stated, that no effectual economy could be realised, and no difficulties thoroughly overcome, unless that House were differently constituted from what it was at present. The mode in which the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had conducted himself, on every occasion since he had assumed office, was such as, in every possible view, to challenge public approbation and confidence. It was manifest, from the measures of those now in power, that they had been selected on account of their talents, and on account of their agreeing as to the necessity of a new mode and form of Government, such as the present circumstances of the country demanded. There was only one thing in the recent change which he regretted, but there must always be something to be regretted in the most favourable events. There was a right hon. Baronet* whom he should have been glad to see comprised in the new arrangement, because he was sure, from the diligence and ability which he had applied to subjects of finance, his experience would have been most valuable, and the benefit of his services would have been in every way gratifying to the wishes of the public. Such was the only subject of regret which he had on the present occasion. He congratulated the country also On the circumstance of the Ministers
* Sir F. Burdett was understood to allude to Sir H. Parnell.
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being supported by a King, who not only attracted towards himself the loyalty which characterised every constitutional Englishman, but who was remarkable for the exercise of those virtues which ensured devoted attachment to the person, as well as fidelity to the King on the Throne, and whose support would enable the Ministers to carry those strong measures which might be necessary for the interests of the country. They would also be supported by those who had no other views the public views; and he was persuaded that the country, notwithstanding the difficulties by which it was surrounded, would have no reason to despair, but, on the contrary, every reason to hope, that all the evils which pressed upon it would be speedily alleviated, and would, by that ability and attention which he was confident would be applied to them, be altogether, and finally, relieved. With these feelings he had thought that he should not be acting fairly, either by the Government or his constituents, if he did not express his confidence in the present Ministry, and his expectation that they would succeed in pleasing all parties. But there was, indeed, one party which he had forgotten, and which had been mentioned by an individual very conversant with business, and well calculated to form a judgment, as more mischievous than any other party. The individual was a great diplomatist, and the party to which he alluded was that of the "Impatients." They were the only party who now remained to be dealt with, and he trusted that the Government would, by its measures, confirm the favourable impressions which its course had hitherto created.
Mr. Goulburnagreed perfectly with the hon. Baronet in the propriety of fairly remunerating public men for their services, and of not resorting to a petty economy, calculated to defeat its own object. He hoped that the measures which his Majesty's present Government intended to bring forward would prove as beneficial as he could not doubt they intended them to be. When he was himself a member of Government, and brought forward any measure which he thought advantageous to the country, he always thought it entitled to a candid construction. In the same manner, although he should use due vigilance with respect to the measures which might be brought forward by the present Govern-

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ment, he was ready to put upon those measures the most candid construction.
Mr. Littletondeclared his great satisfaction at the observations which had just been made by his right hon. friend. Considering the station which that right hon. Gentleman had occupied, he was sure the people of England would mark with great applause the handsome conduct which he now pursued. He hoped that an end would be put, as far as was practicable, to the system of managing business by Committees of that House. He thought that the interests of monarchy in the country had been greatly prejudiced by the practice of delegating to committees of the people matters which ought to be arranged by the Crown, under the responsibility, of course, of the King's advisers. There was one point adverted to by the hon. member for Dorsetshire, upon which he would make an observation. He, for one, approved of the appointment of Lord Plunkett as Chancellor of Ireland. He considered that it was the duty of the heads of the Administration to see that there were placed in those posts of which they had the patronage persons with whom they could have a cordial and confidential understanding in the principles which they professed. They should not lose any opportunity which their patronage offered of receiving the services of such men; and he was sure that the people of England would not regret a few thousand pounds in addition, if that expenditure strengthened an Administration whose professions had already gained them so much credit.
Lord Valletortconcurred in the observation of the hon. Baronet, that public servants ought to be properly remunerated. If individuals were employed who were without the necessary practical knowledge, great and permanent injury might result to the country. He meant also, though sitting on the same side of the House as the hon. member for Colchester, to have the pleasure, and to him it would be a great one from its novelty, of voting with him for the present Ministers whenever their actions deserved his support.
Sir E. B. Sugdencould not conceive why another Judge should be appointed in the place of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland. It ought not to be forgotten, that Sir Anthony Hart was not appointed by the late Government, but by the Government of Mr. Canning. When it was re-collected that many of the present Minis-
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ters coalesced, and joined, and, if he might use so vulgar an expression, worked with that Administration, which appointed Sir Anthony Hart, he would ask, was it not curious, that without any reason given, without any ground advanced, with reference only to political sentiments, they should now remove him? Sir Anthony Hart was not a political character, he had never been a member of the House of Commons, nor was he ever placed in a situation where he could manifest strong political feelings. Did it not then appear extraordinary that Lord Chancellor Hart should be deposed, to make room for Lord Plunkett, merely on the allegation that it was right that every Government should have perfect confidence in the political sentiments of all who were in any way connected with it? Was there any thing in the political sentiments of Sir Anthony Hart which rendered it fit that he should be removed? If such a case were made out—if it were shown that the political sentiments of that Gentleman prevented him from forming a close and cordial connection with Ministers— then he would, for one, admit (hard as it was on the country to be burthened with those large payments) that his removal was justifiable. But when Ministers came forward with professions of economy, and at the same time settled a pension of 4,000 l. a-year on one learned Judge, and of somewhere about 3,000 l. a year upon another, no necessity being pointed out for such a proceeding, it could not escape without animadversion. He did not mean to say that it might not be justified; but unquestionably some reason ought to be given for entailing so large an expense on the country.
Lord Palmerstonexpressed his surprise, after his noble friend had clearly stated that he should be able satisfactorily to explain this transaction, when the details of the arrangement came before the House, to hear the hon. and learned Gentleman make the accusation which he had just done.
Sir E. B. Sugden:—I did not hear the noble Lord's speech.
Lord Palmerstonwas sorry that the hon. hon. and learned Gentleman was not in the House when his noble friend made his statement; but he thought that a person of the hon. and learned Gentleman's experience ought not to have given utterance to such unqualified opinions without hearing the speech which he rose to answer.

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He, however, made those observations, it now appeared, without hearing that speech. He did not mean at present to go into any large discussion on the arrangement in question, because, on a future occasion, the details would be fully stated, and on them the propriety of the proceeding would be defended. But he must say, that it required no great intelligence to show, notwithstanding what had been said by the hon. and learned Gentleman, that the situation of Chancellor could not be divested of political character. The person who held the situation of Chancellor, either of England or Ireland, was obliged to have constant communication with the Ministers of the Crown, and he must, therefore, possess their full political confidence; very great inconvenience would ensue if that seat were occupied by an individual not possessing that confidence. One of the parties alluded to, he believed, wished to retire; and the whole arrangement would, he had no doubt, give satisfaction to the country. The statement of his noble friend seemed to meet the general approbation of the House. He was anxious that it should do so, because Ministers felt that it was only by the concurrence of that House that they could act for the benefit of the country. They came into office at a period of peculiar difficulty, in whatever way they looked to the various interests which were committed to their charge; but it was gratifying to them to find, so far as they had explained the principle which they meant to pursue, that it met with the approbation of the House, as he was persuaded it would that of the country; and it was only so long as they possessed the confidence of both, that they wished to continue in the situation which they now held.
Mr. Calcraftcontended, that his hon. and learned friend (Sir E. B. Sugden) had a right to make the observations he had done on a subject which had been twice or thrice mentioned in the House, until he received the information he demanded. He now begged leave to state his own opinion with respect to that appointment. Looking to the talents and experience of the noble Lord (Plunkett), and considering the great service which he might render in Ireland, he thought that any Government which could avail themselves of his assistance in the public service, would be extremely culpable if it neglected to do so.
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He regretted that any additional expense should be imposed on the country, but he did not begrudge it, as it was the means of procuring Lord Plunkett's services. In speaking of the present Administration, it ought not to be forgotten that they acceded to office under circumstances more favourable to reform than had ever occurred before. At no preceding period had reform taken such an extensive and powerful hold of the public mind as at present. He felt no desire to oppose Ministers; but if he differed from them, he would speak his opinion freely and decidedly. He agreed with the hon. Baronet that it would be unworthy of a great nation to cut down with a parsimonious hand the salaries of individuals in subordinate offices. He entreated the Government, when they had dealt with their own salaries, not to visit the subordinate officers, he meant clerks, with the same severity which they might exercise with respect to themselves, for the little time he had been in office had taught him that what were called large emoluments were, in fact, small emoluments, and hardly sufficient to enable those persons to support themselves. Many of those individuals, after thirty or forty years' service, could not boast of having acquired an independence for their families.
Mr. G. Bankessaid, that without meaning any disrespect to Lord Plunkett, he thought that Sir Anthony Hart was equally fitted for the office of Chancellor. He could see no reason for the translation of the former, whose services were already secured in another situation. It was a most singular thing, that the noble Secretary was himself a member of the very Administration by whom Sir A. Hart was appointed; and the same observation would apply to other members of the Government. How, then, he would ask the noble Lord, had Sir Anthony Hart forfeited the confidence of the present Government? Not only was the same Lord Lieutenant now going to Ireland that was there when Sir Anthony Hart was appointed, but the noble Secretary and other members of his Majesty's Government were then in office. What, then, was the ground of Sir Anthony Hart's removal? They were told that some plan of economy, that some system of reform, was in contemplation. An expense of 4,000 l. a-year was to be entailed on the country—but still economy would be attended to. Now, he would ask, had

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Ministers tried whether Sir Anthony Hart was adverse to their plan of economy? Because, if he were not, this 4,000 l. a-year might have been gained, Sir Anthony Hart still remaining Chancellor, in addition to what would be produced by the intended reductions. He knew that length of service and bodily infirmity might, in some cases, be alleged to justify a retiring allowance. But he had not heard any such plea in this instance.
Colonel Sibthorpsaid, he had no desire to oppose the present Administration, but he wished to ask the noble Lord opposite whether the appointment of Comptroller of the Navy had been again filled up? —whether anew Clerk of the Council had been appointed since the death of Mr. Buller?—and whether an Ambassador was still to be maintained at Vienna, at an expense of 12,000 l.? There were rumours abroad on these subjects which made him wish for positive information. The hon. member for Staffordshire had said, that the people would not grudge a few thousands extra, provided their servants were well paid, but they ought to know that their servants were not those right hon. and honourable Gentlemen who ran about all ways except the way they ought to go for the public good.
Lord Althorpsaid, that with respect to the situation of Comptroller of the Navy, he could not give the hon. Member any information. As to the appointment of second Clerk to the Council, he could give a satisfactory answer. Before the late Administration left office, the King's pleasure was taken on the appointment of Mr. Bathurst as second Clerk of the Council. His appointment was not made by the present Ministers, but by their predecessors. The only thing they had to do with the office was, to reduce the salary from 2,000 l. to l,200 l. a-year. As to the embassy to Vienna, no change had taken place in it.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that with respect to the Clerk of the Council, his Majesty's late Ministers had contemplated an arrangement when the office became vacant, which would have led to a reduction even more beneficial to the public, perhaps, than the present.
Mr. R. Colbornewas friendly to a just economy, but he was sure that it would be found a very bad species of economy to under-pay public servants.
Mr. Laboucherewished to repeat the
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question which was put the other night by the hon. member for Bletchingly. He understood that no less than four pensions had been granted by the Duke of Wellington, or the late Administration, the date of which was subsequent to the virtual resignation of office by the noble Duke. He was desirous of learning how far this was correct. He could not but express his surprise that the right hon. Gentleman ("Mr. Goulburn) had blamed the noble Lord (Althorp) who had so lately come into office, because he was not acquainted with the nature of a certain treaty, at the same time that the right hon. Gentleman had himself declared his entire ignorance of the point to which his (Mr. Labouchere's) question referred, although he certainly ought to have been informed on the subject.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, the hon. Member had no need to ask him this question, because one of the hon. Member's friends had moved for a return of those particular pensions, and it was now on the Table of the House. He had refused to answer the question formerly; because, with respect to a date, it was better to refer to a document than merely to trust to recollection. It appeared by the return, that the order for those pensions was dated the 16th of November.
Mr. O'Connellstated, that he had two reasons for not giving his opinion with respect to the judicial appointment which had been referred to. The first was, lest, in speaking on that subject, and expressing the deep and heartfelt interest which he took in the concerns of Ireland, he might be supposed to be actuated by a personal resentment, which he despised; the other reason was, that they had not all the facts at present before them.
Mr. J. Johnstonsaid, he hoped that the proposed reforms of the Ministers would extend to Scotland, the representation of which was even more corrupt than that of England.
Motion agreed to.
The Committee was immediately appointed. Amongst its members are:— Lord Althorp, Sir Robert Peel, Mr. Goulburn, Mr. Bankes, Sir H. Parnell, Sir G. Warrender, Sir C. Wetherell, Marquis of Chandos, Sir T. Acland, Mr. Adeane, Mr. Bethel, Mr. Lawley, Sir H. Bunbury, Suit. Vyvyan, Lord Stormont, Mr. Irving, Mr. Hume, Mr. Baring, Mr. J. Wood, Sir J. Newport, and Mr. Kennedy.

ELECTORS IN CITIES AND BOROUGHS.
Mr. Hodgsonmoved for a return of persons entitled to the freedom of certain specified Cities and Boroughs, by patrimony, servitude, or marriage, who have been admitted to such freedom in each of the last four years from the present time. The hon. Member explained, that he wished to find out the number of persons who had paid a stamp-duty, or taken out their freedom, with a view to ground on that a motion for the repeal of the stamp-duty.
Mr. Crokerobjected to the Motion, which would be unattended by any beneficial effects unless it was intended to abandon the stamp-duties on taking out freedoms.
Sir C. Wetherellsaid, the proper place to obtain the information required was the Stamp-office. The return, if granted, would not convey any satisfactory information on the subject. He opposed the Motion.
Mr. G. Robinsonsaw no reason to oppose the Motion, and as the returns might be beneficial he should support it. The stamp-duties, as he knew very well, prevented many freemen from taking up their freedom.
Mr. Bankesalso expressed his approbation of the Motion.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, if the hon. Member's object was to get rid of the tax upon taking up freedoms, he should endeavour to effect it by easier and more direct means than a motion for voluminous and useless returns.
Mr. Warburtonthought the returns would be very useful, and he should like to know the number of persons who took out their freedom.
Mr. D. W. Harveythought the hon. Member's object would be as well, or better attained, by a motion for the repeal of the tax at a proper time—a motion which should receive his support.
Mr. Hodgsonconsented to withdraw his motion, and expressed an intention to move for a repeal of the tax on a future opportunity. When he should bring that motion forward, he hoped he should not be accused of wishing to proceed in the dark because he had withdrawn his present motion.

COURT OF CHANCERY.
Mr. Spenceobserved, that the paper which he now sought to obtain was one that would be most necessary in the ensuing inquiries
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respecting Reform in the Court of Chancery. His object was, to effect reduction in the expenses of a suit in that Court, and to place the Court on the same footing as in the 40th of Elizabeth, when the number of officers there was amply sufficient for the purposes required. One of his plans was, to get rid of Recitals, and to incorporate Orders in the proceedings themselves. The document he required was absolutely necessary for his purposes. The hon. Member concluded by moving, "That the Clerk of the Rolls," or other proper Officer, lay before the House a Copy of the Presentment of John Shuck-burgh, Thomas Poole, and others, chosen by the right hon. Thomas Egerton, Knight, Lord-Keeper of the Great Seal of England, to inquire and present upon articles for the better reformation of sundry exactions and abuses supposed to be committed by Officers, Clerks, and Ministers in his Majesty's High Court of Chancery, made the 8th day of March, in the fortieth year of the reign of Queen Elizabeth."
Sir E. B. Sugdendid not oppose the Motion, as the hon. and learned Gentleman pledged himself to the necessity of having the document.
The Attorney Generalconsented to the Motion. The document asked for was most important.
Sir E. B. Sugdenreminded the House that he had intended to bring in a bill to regulate the practice of the Court of Chancery, and on Tuesday he should take the opportunity of stating what were his views on the subject.
Motion agreed to.

REGENCY BILL.
Lord Althorp,in moving the second reading of the Regency Bill, expressed his entire approbation of the measure, which appeared to him to be extremely well conceived. He did not consider that there was any infringement of the Constitution. There would be an infringement of the Constitution if a person with the sovereign power was deprived of his prerogative; if the prerogative were fit to be given to the Sovereign, it was also fit to be given to the person acting as Regent. He was glad, therefore, that this Bill appointed no Council of Regency, as had been done by former bills.
Sir C. Wetherellalso gave his entire approbation to the principle of the measure, and observed, that the noble Lord

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who had introduced it to the other House had gained great honour by the clear and manly speech he made on that occasion; but he could not assent to the supposition that no case could arise in which a Council of Regency would be necessary. He contended, that in the event of the death of the King:, leaving the Queen pregnant, the Crown should immediately descend on the Heir Presumptive. In that respect he approved of the principle of the Bill. He thought that the Act should be declaratory of the law that the Sovereignty should devolve on the Presumptive Heir at once. He should propose to add to the clause declaring that the Crown should so descend, these words:—" Her said royal highness shall be, and be deemed, and taken to be, and is hereby declared to be, the actual Sovereign of these realms, subject to the limitation hereinafter mentioned." There was one other deficiency in the Bill. In the event of the birth of a posthumous child of his present Majesty, the Bill did not provide for the cesser of the Sovereignty of the Princess Victoria. He should, therefore, propose to add these words: "That immediately on the birth of such child, the Sovereign title shall descend to him or her; and it is hereby declared, that the Princess Victoria's right shall cease and determine, and that such child shall be, and shall be deemed and taken to be, and is hereby declared to be, the lawful Sovereign of these realms, in the same manner as if he had succeeded the Princess Victoria in the possession of the Throne of these realms."
Mr. Hughes Hughesthought there was another omission in the Bill, and that was, that if the power of the Regent ceased there was no distinct provision made for the exercise of the powers of Sovereignty. He should move to supply that defect in the Committee.
Sir E. B. Sugdenremarked, that his hon. and learned friend, who proposed to make that law a declaratory law, forgot that it was impossible to do so unless that and the other House of Parliament first agreed in a resolution that such as that hon. and learned Member wished to make the law was actually now the Law of the land. A declaratory law was only a declaration of a law actually pre-existing, but respecting which there had been some doubts. He was disposed to meet the learned Gentleman (Sir C. Wetherell)
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fairly and openly in the discussion on the clauses he had mentioned; but he confessed he thought the Bill perfect without them, and that Parliament was competent to deal with the cases alluded to whenever they arose, if they ever did arise at all.
Lord Morpethexpressed his entire approbation of the Bill. It was the happiness of the people at present to have a Sovereign on the Throne in whom they placed the most perfect confidence; but it was still more for their happiness that the laws of the realm did not trust its safety and security to any thing so unstable as human character.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusonconsidered the Bill perfect, and the additional clauses consequently unnecessary. The noble Lord who framed and introduced it deserved the greatest praise for the whole Bill, and he should be sorry to see it undergo any alteration.
The Attorney Generalsaid, that any objection to the clauses might be urged with better effect when they came to consider the details in the committee. In his opinion the Bill at present accomplished what his hon. and learned friend wished.
Mr. Campbellsaid, that at present the law was not at all doubtful, and that he, therefore, should object to the clauses proposed by the hon. and learned member for Borough bridge.
Lord John Russellapproved of the principle of the Bill, and hoped it would pass with unanimity.
Bill read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.

MINUTES.
The Consolidated Fund Bill was read a third time and passed.
Petitions presented. By Lord TEYNHAM, two from the Roman Catholic Inhabitants of Parishes in Mayo, praying for a better appropriation of the Parliamentary Grants voted for the Education of the people of Ireland; and from the Merchants, Tradesmen, and others, of the Counties of Middlesex and Surrey, for a parliamentary vote of waste Lands, in order to better the condition of the Poor. By the Earl of WINCHILSEA, from Cranbrook and Staplehurst, Kent, complaining of Distress, and praying for Parliamentary Reform. For the abolition of Negro Slavery, by the Earl of ROSEBERY, from Cumnock and Linlithgow:—By the Marquis of BUTE, from Dissenters at Cardiff and Great Yarmouth.

STATE OF THE COUNTRY—LORD WYNFORD'S MOTION.
Lord Wynfordsaid, that in rising to bring forward the Motion of which he had given notice, he felt that this was no ordinary occasion upon which he was about to address their Lordships, and he was afraid, in order to do justice to his subject, that he must trespass on their patience for a longer period than was his general custom. He trusted, however, that he should be able to present to their Lordships such a case, that it would be impossible for them, consistently with the duty which they owed to the country, to refuse the application which he should have the honour to make. He did not at all distrust the merits of the very strong case which he thought he should make out, and he was only afraid, lest, in attempting to do a great deal of good, he should do some evil, by adding to the excitement which unhappily prevailed, to a great extent, throughout the country. He felt a confident hope, however, that nothing which should fall from him would be at all calculated to continue that excitement; on the contrary, he had every expectation, that when the people of this country should come to know, as he hoped the decision of that night would convince them, that their Lordships were determined to do their duty—that they were determined to sift to the bottom the causes of the distress which prevailed in the country, and to exercise

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their best endeavours to apply a remedy to that distress,—he was satisfied that when the people of this country came to see that, they would, with their well-known good sense, rely as they ought, upon the wisdom and justice of Parliament; and he was equally satisfied that such a decision on the part of their Lordships would have a material effect in preventing those disturbances which now disgraced the country. He must be allowed to state, though he felt persuaded that a great deal of the disorder which prevailed in the country was the consequence of that distress, which, if it could not be called universal, was at all events as nearly so as possible, affecting as it did almost all classes and descriptions of persons, and grinding to the dust those persons particularly who were now the objects of their Lordships' attention,—though such was his persuasion, he must be allowed to state that he did not think the fires which had occurred in different parts of the country were to be attributed to that cause. When the English people were distressed, they were apt, it was true, to commit disorders against the law, but Englishmen in distress never wickedly malignantly and absurdly destroyed their neighbour's property, as had been lately done in various parts of this country. He was thoroughly persuaded that such disgraceful transactions were of an exotic origin, and, though some Englishmen might be employed as agents by those persons who were desirous to promote disturbance, confusion, and perhaps rebellion in the country, they were led on by persons who were inimical, instead of being friendly, to the promotion of their real and best interests. Could any man doubt, he would ask, that distress prevailed in the country, and that to a very great extent? He would only entreat any one who entertained such a doubt, to take a journey for fifty miles on any side of London, and he would see the people out of employment, and the troops engaged in the expensive and laborious occupation of repressing disturbances. If the countenances of the people should hot satisfy such a person as to the existence and extent of that distress which he was about to shew their Lordships was mainly attributable to the imperfect state of the English law, let him but go into the parish vestry, and there he would see the difficulty encountered in providing support for the poor, and he would behold the
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sudden transformation which, in innumerable cases, had lately taken place, of ratepayers into rate-receivers. If that circumstance was not sufficient to satisfy such a person as to the existence of the distress, let him only consider the immense increase of crime which had taken place, and which was the necessary consequence of that distress. The Judges of the land were often called upon to punish offences, the commission of which the wisdom of Parliament should have prevented. No man could look at the Gaol-calendar and not see that a frightful increase of crime had taken place within the last few years, which could be attributed to no other cause than the increased distress of the inhabitants of this country. He would refer their Lordships to a document which would put that matter beyond dispute, and which ought to satisfy every one of them, that unless they afforded relief, they could not arrest the progress of crime amongst the whole of the labouring population of this country. The document to which he alluded was "An Account of the Persons who had been sent out to New South Wales;" and from it their Lordships would perceive that the number had lately increased very much. In the year 1825 there were 233 persons transported to Botany Bay from Great Britain and Ireland; in the year 1826 their Lordships would be surprised to find that number increased to 1,815; in the year 1827 it was still further increased, to the enormous amount of 2,587 persons; and in 1828 there was a trifling reduction in the number, leaving it, however, at 2,449. It appeared to him impossible to present to their Lordships a stronger proof that crimes were numerous, and that distress from which alone they could arise, existed to the extent he had stated amongst the lower orders of the people of this country. If he stopped here, he might be told by the noble Earl opposite, for whom he had a great respect, and to whose judgment he should defer, if he had not thought much himself on this subject, that all this might be inquired into by the Committee which their Lordships had already appointed to examine into the state of the Poor-laws, and that before such a Committee they might also enter into an inquiry as to the state and condition of the poor. That certainly was not his opinion, and he thought if their Lordships should limit their inquiries to

831
that committee, that they would do little or nothing. His object was, not to inquire into the best mode of managing the poor, but to provide for the general relief of the people of this country. It was to inquire into the best mode of managing the funds for the poor that the Committee alluded to had been appointed, and to that object was its inquiry limited. But where would be the use of making inquiries about the funds for the poor, if there were none? He wished to shew what had been the occasion of the diminution of those funds, which were now as their Lordships would see, completely inadequate to provide a maintenance for the poor. What was wanted was funds for the support of the poor: if they were not provided, the poor could not be relieved, and he did not understand that the committee already appointed was empowered to extend its inquiries so far. He could not refer to a higher authority, to shew that something more was requisite than an inquiry into the Poor-laws, than the sentiments delivered by Sir Robert Peel, in another place, and which were echoed by the late Mr. Huskisson on the same occasion. Sir Robert Peel said last Session, and Mr. Huskisson expressed himself to the same effect, confirming the language which had been previously held by the noble Duke (Wellington), that there was no want of capital in this country, but that it was in an unhealthy state; that it was collected into the hands of a few; was shut up in strong boxes, and did not find its way into the possession of the productive classes. Though the currency of the country now exceeded, as the noble Duke had stated, and as he believed, the limits of the currency in any former period of our history, yet another hon. Gentleman, Mr. Alderman Thompson, on the occasion to which he had alluded, stated, that it was not sufficient for the wants of the country; and he derived his proof from the fact, that tradesmen were obliged now in many instances to pay their labourers in goods instead of money. He would take that declaration, and the opinions expressed by the two distinguished individuals to whom he had referred, as sufficient grounds for his proposition that inquiry was necessary into other branches of our social economy, than the operation of the Poor-laws. Whether this state of things was owing to
832
the changes which had been made in our currency, or to a want of confidence, arising from any other cause, he did not then give any opinion; but admitting that there was no deficiency of capital, if it was not properly employed, and if those who possessed it were unwilling to lend it out for the promotion of the productive industry and manufactures of the country, in what state must the country be? If the country had been so unfortunate in all its speculations, agricultural and commercial, that the capitalists were induced to stop the life-blood of the country by locking up their wealth instead of sending it forth to support the industry of the country, was it not time to inquire into the causes of such a lamentable state of things? If such were the fact, and if distress existed to an immense extent throughout the country, was it not the bounden duty of their Lordships to institute an inquiry with a view to ascertain the causes of that distress, so that they might be enabled to apply a remedy? In bringing forward this Motion, he did not wish to express a want of confidence in his Majesty's Ministers. It was out of the power of the present Ministry, as it was out of the power of the Ministry that preceded them, to remedy that deficient state of the law which had been so productive of the distress. It was not irregular for him, perhaps, to advert to what had occurred the other day in the Committee up-stairs, where it had been stated that the funds of the farmer were nearly exhausted, and that he had no means of paying his labourers; that if he had the means to pay them, he had abundant work for them; but that he had actually not the capital to enable him to do so. Such was the state of the country, as he would undertake to prove at their Lordships' bar—a mode of investigation he should much prefer, though he should be content with any mode of inquiry they should grant. He would much rather, however, that there should be a public inquiry at their bar, so that the public should be enlightened as to the conduct of two great and respectable classes of individuals who had been so scandalously calumniated in this country, —he meant the landlords and farmers. He wished for such a public opportunity to vindicate them against the foul charges which had been preferred against them. He should be content, however, with any

833
inquiry which it would please their Lordships to grant, so as it enabled them to get at the causes of the distress. A great variety of causes had been assigned for the prevailing distress. It was not necessary for him to give a decided opinion as to the causes, as his only object was, to prove the existence of distress, and point out the necessity which there was for inquiry. It had been lately said, that there were dawnings of improvement in the manufacturing districts of this country. God grant that it was so! but he, for one, did not anticipate that such an improvement, if it existed, was likely to be a lasting one. He thought that it might, perhaps, be attributed to the late troubles on the Continent, and perhaps it would cease the moment the Continent returned to its old habits of industry. Perhaps, too, the increased activity was caused by speculation, anticipating a large demand in consequence of the interruption to industry in some parts of the Continent; but if the case should turn out so, the temporary prosperity would be soon followed by a greater degree of adversity. A noble Lord, now no more, (Lord Liverpool) had attributed the distress which existed in his time, but which now prevailed to a much greater extent, to excessive production. That could not now be the case, for no one could doubt that the produce of the land had diminished to a frightful extent, and it was to be apprehended that it would diminish still further. If it went on diminishing, the time would come when England would be dependent upon foreign countries for her supply of corn; and therefore, in bad seasons, when the crops on the Continent might be short, as well as the crops in this country, all the evils of scarcity would be immeasurably increased. With regard to manufactures, there was an excessive glut of manufactures, which might be accounted for by the use of machinery. He begged to say, that he was no enemy to machinery, if the employment of it were properly regulated; but when it produced a glut in the market, it injured the manufacturer, and it injured the poor man, by depriving him of the means of obtaining employment for his labour. He was of opinion that the poor man had as good a right to have his labour protected, as the manufacturer had to have his manufactures protected, so as to enable him to carry on his trade. He would suggest that that was a fit subject for in-
834
quiry, in order to regulate the employment of machinery. He was not so absurd as to propose to put a stop to the use of machinery altogether, but its use should be properly regulated, so as not to interfere with the labour of the poor man. He wished that justice should be dealt out to all, without distinction; and if any distinction were made, it should be made in favour of the poor man. Another cause of the distress was said to be the diminution of the precious metals. Whether or not that was the case, he could not say; but if it were, great as the horror which he, in common with every one acquainted with the history of the country, must feel at an alteration of the currency, he was of opinion, if a great deficiency in the precious metals were proved to exist, that there should be an alteration of the currency. If there was a great diminution in the currency in this and other countries, that might partly account for the distress, but that was a point which was doubted; by many the fact was denied, and, therefore, it was a proper subject for inquiry. Probably the evil might be removed, if it existed, by altering the regulations of our coinage. Their Lordships should recollect that there was a seignorage charged of, he believed, eight per cent in other countries; and it might be a part of the inquiry whether a seignorage should not be charged on our gold coin. Their Lordships had lately made an alteration in the currency, which certainly did not form the standard, but which formed a great portion of the currency of the country. A pound of silver, which was formerly cut into sixty- two shillings, was now cut into sixty-six, which made a difference of almost five per cent, and was a seignorage on the silver to | that amount. He was not prepared to say that a seignorage to that amount should be charged on our gold coin, but many enlightened men entertained that opinion, affirming, that such an alteration would relieve distress, and he did not know why such a principle should not be soberly and solemnly investigated. The next opinion to which he would refer was, that the distress of the country was owing to the restriction upon the issuing of small notes. He trusted that, from what he had heard said by the noble Earl opposite on that point last Session, he should have his support. He would contend, that the issuing of the 1l. and 2l., notes would not be such an alteration of

835
the currency as would have the effect of altering contracts. If they were issued to the greatest extent, the currency would remain the same as to contracts, for they would still be fulfilled by the same standard. The only effect of the issuing of the small notes would be, to give the country-bankers and the Bank of England the means of accommodating those who wanted accommodation. The noble Duke (Wellington) had asked last Session— "Would you give the country-bankers the unlimited power of coining?" Certainly not—he would not allow them to issue notes, unless they deposited Exchequer-bills to the extent of their issues. If the 1l. notes were not issued, the country-bankers could not lend to the farmer, and the capital of the country would remain, as Sir Robert Peel had stated, locked up in the strong box of the usurer, without being productive of any benefit to the industry of the country. But such a measure, it was said, would be a departure from the ancient policy of the country: it would be no such thing. It was not until the 5th of Geo. 3rd, that the people were restricted from issuing small notes; and previous to that, promissory notes, of no greater value than a shilling were issued. Such notes, however, were productive of frauds. It was on the principle of preventing fraud, then, and not on the principle that it was dangerous to the circulating medium, or a trespass on the King's prerogative, that a bill was brought in by Sir George Saville,—the 15th of Geo. 3rd,—to put a stop to that circulation. The 17th of Geo. 3rd proceeded precisely on the same principle as the 15th, putting an end to the circulation of! the 5l. notes—not on the principle of pre- venting an excessive issue of notes, but to prevent fraud, and to protect the poor from being plundered. The most favourite doctrine of political economy was, that every man should be left to take care of himself; but here they would not trust a man to manage his own affairs and business, and they would not allow one person to issue, and another to take, a small note. That was quite inconsistent with the doctrine of the political economists, and would not be right unless the whole science was founded in error. The next cause assigned for the distress was excessive taxation. He should be the last man to wish to interfere with the just rights of the public creditor; at the same time he
836
must state, that distress in this country was greatly aggravated, if not caused, by excessive taxation. It was admitted by Mr. Pitt, that the taxes, direct and indirect, took two-fifths of his earnings out of the pockets of the poor man. They heard a great deal about high rents, but would any man say, that they took two-fifths, or even one-fifth, from the wages of the labourer? They certainly did not take one-tenth out of his pockets when his bread came to be eaten. He mentioned this, not to put down the taxes, but to remove an unjust odium which was attempted to be cast on the lauded interest. They were told, that if they reduced their rents to what they were in 1793, every thing would be right, and that the country would go on well, and that all our affairs would be in a most flourishing state. He would undertake, however, to prove that, with regard to rent, except in cities and towns, where circumstances might have occasioned a great rise in some rents,— he would undertake, he repeated, to prove, that in the country parts the landed proprietors only received a fair interest for the improvements they had made; and that, making that allowance, the rents had been reduced to the standard of 1793, and in many instances even below it. He had taken pains to inquire into this subject, and he pledged himself to the fact. He would go further, and offer to prove, that even those rents could not be recovered unless some alteration was made in the existing law; and still further, that in the case of lands of the second and third class no rent whatever could be obtained. It might be said, that the land which had fallen out of cultivation was not worth reclaiming, and that it would be better to employ capital in some other way. Unfortunately, that doctrine was supported by a great and most powerful instrument in this country—the public press; and were it generally credited and acted upon, would be ruinous to the country. If the poor land was to be thrown out of cultivation, millions would be deprived of subsistence. To any one who attended to the state of the country, it was plain that it was not the rate of wages which was complained of, for they were as high as ever, but it was the want of employment, and that employment the farmers had not the means to give. It was not those who were employed that complained, but those who were suffering from the want of that

837
employment which the farmers were unable to give them. The throwing up the poor land, which required more labour than rich land, was one cause of the want of employment, and of the distress; and the object of their Lordships ought to be, if possible, so to relieve the farmer, that he might advantageously cultivate the poor land. He would beg of their Lordships also to recollect what had taken place since 1793. Since that time settlements had been made, and money had been borrowed upon estates, in a very different standard from what then prevailed. How were these incumbrances to be discharged, if a return was made to the standard of 1793? Besides, if such a deduction were to take place, would the landed proprietor be in the same state as the rest of the community? Certainly not; for, with the rents of 1793, he could not afford to give those prices which articles fetched in 1830. The necessaries and the luxuries of life had been, some of them, doubled, some of them trebled, in price, since 1793. Unless, therefore, every thing else were reduced in the same proportion with rents, the consequence of returning to rents of 1793 would be, that the landed gentlemen would be degraded from their station. Nor would this be the only consequence— the landed gentlemen would not be the only persons who would suffer by such a reduction; all who were dependent on them,—servants, labourers, and small shopkeepers, all these would suffer in the same proportion with those by whom they were supported. He should presently show also, that if this principle were acted upon, the manufacturing and commercial interests of the country must, and would, fall with the agricultural interests. Their Lordships would recollect, that in dealing with this subject, allusion had very frequently been made to bad seasons. These were stated to have been great causes of distress; and there could be no doubt that such calamities must have had their effect. They were told last year that the badness of the season was the great cause of the evil then complained of; but now they had had a good season, and yet the evil not only remained, but it had increased. This circumstance shewed, he thought, that the causes of our distress were not yet accurately known, and were worthy of the consideration of their Lordships. The next circumstance put forward to account for the evil was, the state of the Corn-laws.
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It had been constantly asserted, that the Corn-laws were, in fact, the great, and almost the only cause of the evil. If this were so, let the Corn-laws be repealed. He had no objection himself to the repeal of the Corn-laws; his interest in them was but small; and though he was certainly the friend of the landed interest, yet he was no further the friend of it than because he was convinced that every thing which affected the landed interest must affect at the same time all the other interests of the country. He saw no objection to the Corn-laws being repealed, if, at the same time, their Lordships took away those burthens which weighed peculiarly on the landed interest. He was quite sure that the Corn-laws of 1826 were of no use to the agricultural interest. They might be, and he believed they were, useful to the speculator: they might, and he believed they did, encourage a spirit of gambling, which had originated on the Stock Exchange, but which now affected all our markets, which deranged the whole economy of our domestic life, and which caused uncertainty in every species of property throughout the country. The part of the Corn-laws to which he more particularly alluded was that which regulated importation; but, among the objections to the Corn-laws,—rand those objections were as serious as they were numerous,—none appeared to him to be so strong as the objection to the mode of striking the averages. These averages were regulated by the price of British corn, and, while Irish corn was to be considered as British com, he must say, that he thought it very hard that the price of Irish corn was not included in the averages. While he was upon this subject, allow him to observe, that he thought our neighbours— he meant the French—were, in some things, wiser than we were. In France there was a distinction made between corn carried in French vessels, and corn carried in vessels of any other country. We made no such distinction; and he was very much afraid that foreigners went back with their ballast and their money for their corn, and took none of our manufactures in return. And this led him to speak of those burthens which were exclusively borne by the agricultural interest. Of these burthens it would not be too much to say, that they amounted to 25 per cent at the very least; and yet the agricultural interest had no equivalent protection

839
given them in return—that was to say, no protection which gave them any remuneration. Thus, for instance, the Poor-laws attached almost exclusively to the land. At the period of the enactment of the Poor-laws- the time of Elizabeth— very little commercial wealth could be touched by these laws,—very little was in existence; but all the land was reached by them. They reached also the inhabitants of towns, it was true; but only their visible, not their actual, means were affected by the Statute of that queen. The same was the case now, and at the present time the landed interest paid more than three-fourths of the poor-rates: the landed interest paid this, and paid it, too, for the support, not of its own poor only, but of the manufacturing poor also. He should show their Lordships that this was the fact. A man might have a factory in a certain parish, and carry on business with an additional capital of 100,000 l., and such a man would be rated, not according to all his property, including his capital, but merely according to the value of the building. Now, this was obviously an unfair assessment. Besides, such a man, though he would have his factory in one place, might have his workmen in all the parishes around; who, when turned off, must be supported by the parishes to which they belonged. If this were examined into, he was convinced it would appear, that a very large proportion of the poor-rates were thus paid by the landed interest. He next came to the land-tax. That tax was originally intended to apply to all property; but, as it had turned out, all property, with the exception of certain pensions, escaped, and the land paid the whole of the tax. When this tax was first laid on, a bounty was given on the exportation of corn, to landed proprietors, in order to induce them to consent to the tax; but that bounty had been taken away, and the tax remained. These were some of the burthens which weighed heavily and unfairly upon the landed interest. He could mention others, if he were not afraid of detaining their Lordships too long, and he had no doubt that in these burthens their Lordships would, upon inquiry, find the cause of the flourishing condition of the large towns, while the landed interest decayed. Their Lordships would find, that no foreign manufactured produce was admitted into this country without paying very high duties, while foreign raw produce,
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that came into competition with the growth of our own soil was admitted, at almost a nominal duty. But why, he would ask, should it be thought necessary to neglect one interest while they protected another? The profession which he had followed, and the high station which he had had the honour to fill, taught him the principle of perfectly equal justice, and that principle demanded that those burthens which it was necessary to impose upon the community should be equally borne by all its various parts. He was sorry to have detained their Lordships so long; but there was yet one topic upon which he felt it necessary to touch. He need not tell their Lordships how loud the complaints of distress were, nor was it necessary for him to inquire into the truth of the assertion, that the distress complained of was generally felt. He believed, however, that that assertion was true. Let their Lordships agree to his motion, and inquire into the fact, if they had any doubts upon the subject; but he was convinced that the manufacturing and commercial interests sympathized with the landed interest. Indeed, this was the necessary consequence of the distress which was universally admitted to prevail in the landed interest. It was quite as impossible that the landed interest could suffer, and the other interests of the country flourish, as that a man who was struck with the palsy in three parts of his body could be healthy in the other part. If their Lordships would look into Mr. Colquhoun's book, they would see this ably demonstrated. There was, however, one criterion even safer than that of Mr. Colquhoun's authority— he meant the proof afforded by the income-tax; from a view of the returns under that tax, their Lordships might judge of the different importance of the agricultural and the manufacturing interests. In the year 1815, the last in which that tax was levied, it would be found that the income-tax, levied on a rate of ten per cent, produced for the land 8,200,000 l.; and, deducting two millions for houses, that left six millions as the contribution of the land alone. If they looked, then, at the returns of the same tax upon commerce and manufactures, what would be the result? Commerce, manufactures, professions, and trades, together with property abroad, which paid a tax in this country, produced but three millions. Take from that sum one million for property abroad, that

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paid a tax here, and that left two millions as the whole of the income-tax upon commerce, manufactures, trades, and professions; while the land alone paid six millions. Could it be denied, after that fact, that the landed interest was the most important in the country? And if so, was it not likely, as he had asserted, that the depression of that interest in the home market must depress all the rest, and must produce all those evils of which so many complaints were now heard? He might add, with regard to the calculation he had just made, that he believed it would be found that three-fourths of the money paid on behalf of the towns was produced from the owner of the land and his tenants, and from those who were concerned in the home trade of the country. He did not undervalue the foreign trade, but he did not think that, in order to preserve it, we should sacrifice our internal means of prosperity. If we fostered and encouraged our home trade, and, above all, our agriculture, we should be happy and independent. If the foreign trade left us, as there was good reason to believe it would, still we should find ample means for the development of our industry in the home market, and in our commerce with our colonies. Our merchants, who fetched for our use the produce of the earth from the most distant of its extremities, and whose skill and perseverance had enabled them to convert what at first appeared a barrier into a more easy means of universal communication, would still be able to keep us, in any case of necessity, above the possibility of a deficient supply, so that it was impossible a country like this could ever feel itself dependent on any other for a supply of corn. He repeated, therefore, that, to preserve our foreign trade, we ought not to sacrifice our agriculture and our home trade, on the success of which depended much of the moral courage and energy of the people of this country. We saw already symptoms of the decline of our foreign commerce, and we ought to provide ourselves with a substitute in the additional encouragement given to our agriculture. Our commerce was declining, because other countries had become, like us, manufacturers. France had her manufactures; America had hers, and to that extent, too, that they had occasioned a great falling off in our exports. The Russians and Germans, also, had their manufactures. Those peo-
842
ple were so stupid as not to attend to the wise opinions of our political economists, who told them to take our manufactures, —they refused to do so—they manufactured their own goods. The Danes did the same. He had seen a very clever Essay —no doubt very clever—in which the Danes were told not to manufacture their own cloth, because they could get it so much cheaper here; but they said, "If I buy from you I must pay money for it, but if I buy it at home I may appear to pay a little dearer for it, but I can make that payment in paper." In his opinion, we ought to follow the same course, and give the same answer to the advice of those political economists who recommend us to buy the agricultural produce of other countries, and to continue to pay in gold; for, whilst we paid in money, we diminished our means of competition, and threw out of employ the workmen by whose labour we were supported. He would just call the attention of the House to the history of the years 1815, 1816,1817, 1818, and 1820, in confirmation of what he had just stated. If they read the history of those years, they would see that our manufacturing interests were, as they always must be, affected by the prosperity or decline of our agriculture. When the latter flourished, the former were prosperous; when the latter declined, the former felt the consequences of the pressure. In 1815, corn, from the monopoly of agriculture existing during the war, in consequence of which our lands were well cultivated, was very cheap; and though he admitted that manufactures were then suddenly depressed, he knew that that depression was occasioned by other circumstances. In 1816 the quantity of corn in the country was exhausted, and the agricultural in terests were distressed. In the same manner the manufactures were affected. In 1817 the corn got up in price; no supply was obtained from abroad, and corn was at 105 s. per quarter; yet, in spite of that, and because the agricultural interest was flourishing, manufactures were in a prosperous condition, and the Prince Regent, in the opening Speech of the Session, congratulated Parliament on the flourishing state of the country. In 1818 both the agricultural and the commercial interests were prosperous, but in 1820 corn fell lower than it had ever before been known, and manufactures at the same time suffered an exactly similar depression. At that

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time his Majesty, in his Speech from the Throne, expressed his sorrow at the unfortunate state of the country. He now begged to remind the noble Earl, at present at the head of his Majesty's Government, that when the Address in answer to the Speech was moved, that noble Earl desired that some expressions of a stronger nature than those inserted in the Address should be employed, for he asserted that those expressions, strong as they were, were not strong enough to express the feelings of that House on the subject of the distress of the country. He was satisfied that it was quite impossible to find a stronger instance than that he. had just alluded to of the fact, that when the agricultural interest was depressed, the manufactures inevitably suffered along with it. He wished now to mention another circumstance, not less important than the flourishing or decayed state of the trade of the country—he meant that of the danger of famine if the agriculture of our country should be suffered to go without its full support. That danger had existed when agriculture was in a better state than now. In 1817, if we had had Cornlaws such as those now in force, that evil would have happened, for, instead of corn being 105 s. a quarter, he believed that a great part of the people would have perished from famine. The same causes which produced a scarcity in England would produce it abroad. We ought not, therefore, to trust to the foreign market, but to encourage our own agriculture generally, so that the deficiencies of one year might be supplied by the abundance of another. He was sure, that unless care was taken to accomplish this object, some dreadful famine would fall on the country, and the fault would be on their Lordships' heads if that occurrence was not fully provided against. In the course of his professional life he had become a little acquainted with the matter of Exchanges, and, from what he had learnt, he was of opinion, and he believed others agreed with him, that the exchanges of the country ought to be kept as uniform as possible; at least, that they ought not to be allowed to go against us. That which he regarded as an evil—the exchanges being against us—was a matter always determined by the importation or non-importation of corn. During two of the years which he had before referred to, when corn had been imported, the exchanges were
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against us, in one instance, to as great an amount as 6 per cent; when the importation ceased, the exchanges rose, and in a very short time were actually in our favour. In his opinion, protection ought equally to be given to every species of labour; and he was quite sure, that in any measure that would have that tendency the people would find as great a blessing as the Legislature could bestow. The same cause which depressed the agricultural interest deprived a part of the industry of the country of that protection which it deserved. The agricultural produce of this country was, in consequence, not equal now to what it had been in some former years. In what he had already stated he had not mentioned all the causes of the present distress, but all those things which were usually described as the causes of it. He asked their Lordships to examine all these, to see whether they were all, or whether there were others, that contributed to produce the distress, and whether that distress was what it was described to be. He should rejoice if it turned out that the distress which was stated to exist did not really exist, for such a circumstance would be the best answer to those people who availed themselves of the distresses of the country to commit the excesses of which they had lately heard so much. He would not diminish the security of the fund-holder; he would not deny that person's just demands upon the State; but he was persuaded that if things went on as they did, though the fund-holder might now have his full dividend, the security of his property would be worth nothing. He would not appeal to their Lordships on the score of interest—that would be the last motive which would influence their conduct; their only motive was, to exert themselves in the best manner possible for the good of the country for the protection of others, not of themselves. Their Lordships held their high situation to protect the interests of the poor, who could not protect themselves; for their sakes he implored the House to adopt some course of inquiry, in order to discover some means of remedy for present evils. If a course better than that he now pointed out could be shown, he was not so bigotted to his own opinions, nor so prejudiced against those of other people, as to refuse to yield his own to a better plan. All he wanted was some effort to relieve the country from its. present distresses. For that he appealed

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to their Lordships—for that he appealed [to his Majesty's Ministers; and he could not make that appeal in language so eloquent, nor in any so likely to affect them, as that which had been used by one of themselves. Sir James Graham, in a most excellent pamphlet lately published, had used these striking expressions, addressed to another Government, indeed, but equally as applicable to the present Government as to any other. The noble Lord then read the following extract:—
"Let me entreat them to depart from their usual course of awaiting the event: a great and an immediate effort is necessary to burst the cord now drawn so tight around them;—if they hesitate, they will be entangled in such complicated difficulties, that | resistance and escape will soon be alike impossible."
His Lordship would not further weary the patience of their Lordships, which he had already tried at so great length, but returning them his thanks for the attention they had vouchsafed to shew him, would at once submit the Motion of which he had given notice— "That a Committee should be appointed instantly to inquire into the causes of the present state of the Distress in the Country, and, as far as might be, into the nature of the remedies to be adopted."
The Earl of Rosebery,having been a warm supporter of a Motion made by a noble Duke (Richmond) on a subject somewhat analogous to this, although between the two there was certainly a broad line of distinction, and although the noble Baron opposite had not stated whether he moved for a Select Committee, or for a Committee of the whole House, [Lord Wynford signified that he left that to their Lordships]; but putting that difference out of the question, having been in the course of the last Session a warm supporter of a Motion of this sort, he felt bound now to state why he dissented from the present Motion; and, in doing so, he should declare that he was not conscious of any inconsistency in conduct or opinion, for he asserted then, as he believed now, that the strictest inquiry should be made into the causes of these periodical returns of national distress. The first reason on which he objected to the present Motion was, that a few days ago a Committee on the Poor-laws had been appointed; and thinking, as he did, that the mal-administration of those laws was a principal
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grievance of the people, and therefore one of the causes of the present distress, by bringing a redundancy of population into the market, to compete for employment, and by causing a constant interference with labour, breaking the spirit of the labourer and destroying all his feelings of independence, inducing him no longer to trust to himself and his own industry— thinking this, he could not but feel satisfied, that if that Committee did its duty, and the Government did their duty (of which he had no doubt), by co-operating with the Committee, the evils now in existence would progressively, and he trusted not with a slow pace, be removed. It must be a subject of great grief to their Lordships that the state of the labouring classes was, in this as in many other countries, deteriorated within the last few years; and what was of more importance, the depression of these classes was co-existent with the elevation of their minds by the diffusion of knowledge, and by the vast strides which education and the power of reading had made within the same time. He therefore thought, that the time was come when every man who had a heart to feel, or an understanding to comprehend this state of things, must be filled with the deepest anxiety to discover the cause of the present evils, and to apply a proper remedy. The first objection he made to the present Motion was, that the necessity of it was in a manner superseded by the committee having been appointed to which he had already alluded. The second objection which he had to this Motion arose from the recent change made in the Government, and from the circumstances which had led to that change, and from the pledges which his Majesty's Ministers had made to the Parliament and to the country. The noble Earl now at the head of the Government had, immediately upon his taking Office, —on the very first night of his appearing there in his present station, not only agreed to a Motion made by the noble Marquis for a Committee on the state of the Poor-laws, but he made a most solemn declaration, that he and his colleagues would take the whole state of the country into their most serious, unceasing, and deliberate consideration; that they would use their utmost efforts to relieve the country, as far as retrenchment could effect its relief, and, as far as their power went, would do their ut-

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most to restore present confidence, and to lay the best foundation for the future prosperity of the country by Reform in Parliament, and in every other department of the State. Under these circumstances, he asked whether it was fair and courteous to persons who had so recently been called to fill their situations to interfere in this manner, not only with the duties they were called on to discharge, but with those which they had expressed themselves willing and ready to enter upon? Such an interference consumed time and disturbed their labours by compelling them to attend a Committee, when they had as good, if not better, means of examination in their hands, and when they might, in a few weeks, state their own plans to the House. It appeared to him that such a course, so far from accelerating that relief, which every man desired to see given, would be destroying much of the good that might be derived from the Committee already appointed. The noble Lord had stated, that not merely the state of the law with reference to the poor ought to be considered, but that the distress was so general and prevalent as to demand immediate attention, and required immediate relief. He agreed with the noble Baron, that the present administration of the Poor-laws was an evil of itself, and the cause of many other—that the present distress was very extensive and dreadful, and that these matters ought to be the subject of a parliamentary inquiry. He should be sorry, either by what he said, or by the vote he should give, to stifle a parliamentary inquiry; but he thought it would be better for them to wait, since he believed it was in the power of Ministers to submit a more effectual measure than could now be submitted by any noble Lord in particular. He only wished that the inquiry should be postponed, not altogether rejected. It was not his intention to trespass longer on the attention of their Lordships, if the noble Lord would withdraw his Motion; but as he found that was not likely, he should take the liberty of saying a few words on some topics introduced by that noble Lord. The noble Lord seemed to imagine, that the right hon. Gentleman now no more, had asserted that the capital of this country was locked up in strong boxes, or lent out to usury. Although he did not mean to enter into the circumstances of the distress of the country, he had no hesitation in
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repeating what he had stated last Session, that one of the causes that contributed to the distress had been the unnatural or improper, and inconvenient distribution of the capital of the country; but it would require more than the imagination of the right hon. individual alluded to, to suppose that any part of the capital of the country was hoarded in strong boxes. It was an idea impossible to be believed, and certainly one which that right hon. Gentleman had never entertained. The noble Lord had gone at length into the subject of rents, and had stated that rents throughout the kingdom had materially lowered since the Peace; and he had been understood to say, that if rents were more lowered, the distress that might ensue to the landlords, especially those on whom the encumbrances of an antecedent period were still charged, would be such as they could not bear. His belief was, that rents had been considerably lowered, but he would not go the length of saying, that they had been universally lowered to that level which the price of produce and the expense of farming made necessary, and he did not agree in the inference that the distress of the landlords was such as they could not bear, for if the farmer was unable to pay the present rents, they must be reduced to the price of produce. At the same time he must be allowed to say, that in his judgment the distress among the agricultural population did not arise from the high state of the rents. He believed there might be some particular instances in which distress arose from that cause, but he believed also, that distress was greatest where low wages existed from the competition of the labourers, arising from the excess in the number of labourers above the demand for them—an excess which was mainly attributable to the maladministration of the Poor-laws. In reference to the general internal state of the country, and, perhaps, more particularly with respect to the observations of the noble Lord with regard to the increase of crime, he could not close the few observations he had to make without adverting to the state of the Game-laws. He was convinced that the Game-laws of England demoralised the people, while no good was obtained from their continuance. They had had and they now had a great tendency to produce ill will and enmity where formerly there existed respect; and

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they led, moreover, to habits of violence, to a roving and predatory character, and caused a disposition to tumult, to which some of the scenes recently acted in different parts of the country might be attributed. He was sorry to say, that their Lordships were responsible for this state of the law, for more than once a bill had been brought from the other House with a view to place the Game-laws on an uniform, rational, and sound principle; but these bills had always been thrown out or injuriously modified, by their Lordships. As he saw by the votes of the other House that a bill on this subject had lately been introduced with enactments similar to those which had formerly passed that House, he trusted, that this Session would not pass away without a total alteration of those laws—an alteration from which he anticipated the most beneficial results to the peace, the happiness, and the tranquillity of the people. He should transgress the rule he had laid down if he did more than state, that he opposed this Motion because a committee on the most important part of it was now sitting. He felt the greatest confidence in the rectitude of the feelings of the noble Lord now at the head of the Government. He believed that the Ministers would co-operate with the Parliament, and do not only as much as Parliament required, but more; and would lend their utmost ability, and all their faculties, to ascertain the causes of the distress—a matter more easy than to discover a remedy. He believed that they would do their utmost to discover and apply a remedy to existing evils; and if the noble Lord would withdraw his Motion its object might be better accomplished by the Committee already granted.
The Earl of Eldonsaid, that their Lordships would perhaps be surprised to hear that, timid as he generally was in coming to a decision, he was now fully and deeply impressed with a sense of the necessity that existed for a parliamentary inquiry into the causes of the distress which pervaded the country. Whether he was right or wrong in the conviction which he entertained, he would not pretend to say; but having such a conviction as he had, he felt compelled to give his consent to the Motion of his noble and learned friend for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the causes of the present lamentable condition of the country. Some two or three years ago several dif-
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ferent causes were assigned for the nature of the distress which then prevailed. The first was stated, in no less important a document than a King's Speech, to be the nature of the season, over which it was alleged that the Government had no control—a truth as obvious as any that was ever uttered either in that House or any where else. Their Lordships were also informed, in the same document that other causes were in existence; but they were neither told what those causes were, nor permitted to inquire into their extent and magnitude. His noble and learned friend had stated in his speech various causes for the present distress. He was sorry to say, that he differed from his noble and learned friend as to the capability of many of those causes to produce the results which he attributed to them; but in any assembly less dignified than that of their Lordships, the difference of opinion between himself and his noble and learned friend, would be considered as a reason, not for prohibiting, but for promoting inquiry. With respect to what had been said on the subject of machinery, he would only observe that he could not agree either with those who called upon the Government to alter the state of the law regarding machinery, or with those who recommended them to put an end to the employment of it. Let their Lordships consider for moment what would be the consequence of following such impolitic advice. Till machinery was invented, arms and hands were the implements with which men worked. Arms and hands were found, however, unable to compete with machinery, and machinery was in consequence employed, not only in our own country, but also in foreign nations. Now, if we were to put an end to the employment of it, and to return to the labour of arms and hands alone, the consequence would be, that the arms and hands of foreign nations, supported also by foreign machinery, would supply our markets with goods, and reduce our labourers to a worse condition even than that in which they were involved at present. He hoped that it would not be supposed that in supporting the present Motion, he was either casting a censure upon the late, or expressing distrust of the present, Administration. He was doing neither: he was only expressing his conviction that the state of the country demanded parliamentary inquiry, and under that conviction he should

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support the present Motion, which he conceived was rather calculated to assist than embarrass the consultations of the new Administration.
Lord Kingspoke as follows:—The noble and learned Lord,—for learned I must call him, and learned I have no doubt he is in his own profession, but learned he is not in the information which is wanted here, or at least he has thrown no light on the opaque atmosphere which a learned Gentleman below the bar told us pervaded this House,—the noble and learned Lord has moved for a committee to inquire into the causes of the distress which now pervades the country, to devise remedies for it, and to report its opinion thereupon to the House. Taking the view of this question that the noble and learned Lord has taken, I am surprised that he does not see that the committee for which he moves would, if granted to him, be nothing more than a mere ignis fatuus,—-that it would only involve him and your Lordships in greater obscurity and deeper gloom,—that it would only plunge him further into the mire than he has got already,—and that it could not by any accident be of the slightest advantage, either to himself or to the country. The noble and learned Lord has throughout his speech done all he could to deride political economists and the public Press; but his derision throughout was nothing better than a lamentable joke. The noble and learned Lord says, that we are reduced to our present wretched and calamitous condition, by the doctrines of the political economists, and by the mischievous influence of the public Press. Now, I venture to tell the noble and learned Lord that it is because the doctrines of the political economists have been neglected, and not because they have been too much attended to, that we are in our present state of suffering. The noble and learned Lord, like all the deriders of theorists and political economists, is a little bit of a theorist himself; and as his theory is not a little extraordinary, let us see what it is, and how he defends it. The notion of the noble and learned Lord regarding capital is certainly of a novel description. He says that there is capital in the country, but that it is unfortunately locked up in the strong box. Does the noble and learned Lord know what capital is? Why, houses are capital, land is capital, food is capital raiment is capital. All these, I admit, are
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locked up in a strong box; but then that strong box is as large as the Island of Great Britain, and in that strong box I hope they will long remain. The noble Lord quoted, I think, part of a speech made by Sir Robert Peel in another place, to justify his opinion upon that point; but he has not acted quite fairly by that speech, for he has given us part of a line out of it, and has omitted the remainder of it. He says, "Sir Robert Peel told the country that its capital was locked up in a strong box," and then he recommends a one-pound note circulation to conjure it from its fastenings. Now, if I recollect that speech of Sir Robert Peel's correctly, he followed up the declaration which the noble and learned Lord just quoted, by putting down that very circulation which the noble and learned Lord recommended. Another part of the noble and learned Lord's political economy is embodied in a complaint, that the Russians, the Danes, and the Americans are all running us hard in the production of manufactures. Does the noble and learned Lord know why they are running us hard? If he does not, I will tell him. The reason is, because we will not take their raw produce in return for our manufactures. The noble and learned Lord says, that the reason of their producing manufactures is, because they pay for their things in paper; but the reason is, that we compel them to use their raw produce themselves, instead of taking it into our warehouses, and returning them manufactured goods in exchange. Does the noble and learned Lord suppose that any thing is given for nothing? Does he suppose that they will give us their raw produce without receiving any thing in return? Their raw produce must be paid for in manufactured goods; we are not permitted to take their raw produce, and therefore they will not take our manufactured produce. That is the mistake into which all the deriders of theory, who are generally the least of practical men and the most of theorists that can be found, are always falling; they never will understand that these countries have nothing but raw produce to exchange for our manufactured produce, and that when we refuse to take their raw produce, we compel them to convert it into a manufactured state themselves. One more sample of the noble and learned Lord's political economy, and I have done with it for a time. The noble and learned Lord talked

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very largely of the importance of maintaining the exchanges. He says, "If you import corn, down at once go your exchanges, and there is no knowing where they will stop." I admit that when corn is admitted on an emergency arising suddenly, and contrary to general expectation, the exchanges will probably fall; but then I ask the noble and learned Lord to tell me whether, when there is no corn in the country, he would not rather let the exchanges go down than see the country continue without corn? As the noble and learned Lord has given your Lordships a taste of the quality of his political economy, allow me in return to give you some notion of mine. I think that the great distress which now prevails in various parts of the country arises from this:—That the tendency of your legislation for many years back has been, to encourage an over-supply of the population, and an under-supply of food. The over-supply of the population has been supported—indeed I may say has been mainly supported—by that mal-administration of the Poor-laws of which the noble and learned Lord so justly complained. The system of under-paying single men for their labour had an inevitable tendency to make them marry, and was a direct encouragement to make them improvident of the future. I have been told by a clergyman, who has the care of an extensive parish in an agricultural district, that he has often been surprised at the youth of the couple who have come before him to be married. On one occasion, a young lad of nineteen came with a young girl of his own age. My friend the clergyman said to them "You are very young, what has induced you to marry so soon?" The man answered — and my friend tells me that he has frequently received the same answer— "I am not married, and therefore I cannot get, and you will not give me, work—I come here to be married, and then give me work you must." Such a state of things inevitably led to a great increase of population. Then, with this increased population, you have an under-supply of food, owing to the operation of the Corn-laws. Since the year 1815, when those laws were enacted, the supply of corn grown in the country has sensibly diminished. I can prove this point, if necessary, very clearly; but I believe that it is admitted by all who have taken an extensive view of the face of the country, that agricul-
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ture is not now in the same flourishing condition in which it was before the Corn-laws were passed;—that the land is now driven hard;—that much of it has gone out of cultivation; and that, therefore, the produce here now is not equal to what it was. Then if you look abroad, you will see the same circumstances occurring there. We know, that in many of the continental States, large tracts of land, formerly cultivated as corn lands, have been turned into grass; and in the committee which sat upon the Wool-trade, we were even told that the continental farmers, instead of growing corn, had now turned their attention to growing wool. Hence the supply of food being contracted, not only in this country, but also on the Continent, must have been greatly diminished since the first passing of the Corn-laws; hence the labouring classes have not had a belly-full since the year 1815, nor will they have until the Corn-laws are repealed. The diminution in the supply of food would have created great distress and inconvenience, even had the population continued the same; but in the fifteen years which have elapsed since the Corn-laws received their monstrous birth, the increase of the population has been at least 2,000,000. Thus, if the quantity of corn grown both here and abroad be less than the quantity grown fifteen years ago, and if the population who have to subsist on that corn contain 2,000,000 of human beings more than it did then, it is quite evident that there must be a less quantity for each individual to consume. Now, food is capital, and therefore if there be a diminution in the supply of food used by the country, there is a corresponding dimunition in the amount of its capital. Hence it follows, that the proportion which ought to exist between the capital and the population of a country is deranged, and that the condition of the population is deteriorated: for it is on the amount of capital compared with the population, that the happiness of the population always depends. Besides, your Lordships ought never to lose sight of this important truth,—that when food becomes dear, it supplies a great encouragement to increase the employment of machinery, for as the increased price of food leads to an increased rate of wages, the capitalist seeks to supply by the use of machinery the labour which costs him so dear. Your Lordships are therefore inflicting a great injury upon the labouring

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population when you direct your legislation to produce a high price of corn; for you not only destroy their labour, by pre-venting them from deriving a supply of cheap corn from those countries which would be glad to exchange corn for the produce of their labour, but you also destroy it by calling into existence a large power of machinery which supersedes it. With respect to the insurrection—for insurrection I am sorry to say it is—which has taken place among the agricultural labourers in the southern counties of England, I think that it will be allowed that it proceeds from severe distress. That distress has been taken advantage of by mischievous agents; but that there is distress, and severe distress, no man can doubt. How are you endeavouring to meet that distress? By an advance in the rate of wages. If that advanced rate of wages should continue to be paid,—and I am afraid that it cannot,—it will create a greater demand on the food of the country, and, by doing so, will produce a greater consumption of that capital in which you are most deficient. The question, therefore, comes to this,—will the capital of the country, diminished as it will be by a greater consumption of food, be replaced by any increase in the profits usually derived from it? Certainly not; and if that be so, then the advance in the rate of wages will have a tendency to lower the general rate of profits, and will thus affect the future prospects of the country. I repeat, that I do not believe that this advance in the rate of wages can be long maintained. It is not natural,—it has been brought about by] the necessity of the times; it cannot afford the farmer a remuneration, and therefore it is vain to expect that it will be continued. Instead of directing our attention to the temporary change in the condition of part of the labouring classes, we should look for a change which will benefit all the working classes of the country,—for a change which will not be partial and transitory, but which will permanently relieve all classes, and improve the general prosperity of the country. The labourers, I am sorry to say it, have, during the last two or three years, been reduced to a state of privation almost beyond human endurance and human forbearance. Some relief must be afforded them; but how? If it be by the diminution of the capital of the farmer, that will fall upon the rents;—yes, if the capital of
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the farmer be reduced, as it necessarily must be, by the augmentation of wages which he has to pay, it will fall upon the rents. It is clear, therefore, that an alteration of rents must take place. The question, therefore, for your consideration is, will you allow it to be made?—for made it certainly will be, in a manner which will not reduce the amount of distress, but which will keep up all the bad workings of a bad system; or will you come—as in honour and in principle you ought to come—to an alteration of the Corn-laws, which will add to the capital of the country, and to the employment of your artisans in the manufacturing towns, and which, by giving that class of your population increased means of subsistence, will spread comfort through every other class of the community connected with them? You have already tried the fatal experiment of the Corn-laws long enough. The injury which you intended to others has recoiled on your own heads. You are the greatest sufferers by it now; and a worse fate than your present, will befall you, if you are infatuated enough to persist in your present course. The prosperity of the country has decayed before it; that decay is still going on, and the question therefore is—will you consent to let the country enjoy that prosperity which I am certain it still" can enjoy, if you take off that dead weight,—the Corn-laws,—which now oppresses it? or will you continue to stand by the experiment of the Corn-laws, which even the noble and learned Lord declares to be inefficient for the purposes for which it is designed, for he admits that the agriculture of the country has declined under it? The sooner you come to an alteration of the Corn-laws, and come to it at last you must, the better will it be for yourselves and the country. I shall certainly vote against the Motion of the noble and learned Lord.
The Earl of Winchilseasaid, that after the support which he had given in the last Session of Parliament to the Motion of his noble friend (Earl Stanhope) for a committee to inquire into the condition of the agricultural interest, he should deem himself guilty of a great inconsistency were he not to support the Motion now proposed by the noble and learned Lord. He did not think that the vote which he intended to give that evening was inconsistent with the professions of confidence which he had made towards the noble

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Earl now at the head of the Administration. It was far from his wish to throw any impediment in the way of a Government which had been called upon to take the helm of State in most perilous times, and which had a right to ask, and which he believed would receive, from every well-wisher to his country, all the assistance which it might require. He thought, however, that an inquiry of the character now proposed would be better conducted by a committee of their Lordships than by being left in the hands of the Government. Indeed, the Government had at this time too much upon its hands to give to this question the assiduous and unremitting attention which it required. He agreed with the noble and learned Lord who opened the debate, that the situation of the agricultural interest demanded immediate inquiry. He knew that there was an erroneous impression abroad, that the agricultural interest had stated its position falsely to the country, and that it had not acted with justice to the people in making those fair reductions in rent which it ought. If inquiry were granted, he had no doubt but that it would be proved, that rents were in general reduced to the standard of 1797; indeed, in many parts of England he knew that land was of no value, and that when the legal burthens upon it were paid off, no rent was left to the owner. He admitted that the committee which was appointed the other night might be productive of great advantage. Its inquiries, however, were confined to the mal-administration of the Poor-laws, which affected, and affected severely, one branch of the agricultural interest. That committee could not inquire into the condition of the land-owners and tenantry of the country, and therefore it was, that he said, that the committee which the noble and learned Lord now proposed would be of great advantage. He agreed with that noble and learned Lord in thinking that the unequal pressure of the burthens imposed on the agricultural interest had thrown it to the ground, and had rendered it incapable of struggling any longer with the difficulties which surrounded it. He agreed also with that noble and learned Lord, that it was not just that one interest should bear all the burthens of the country, and that interest should not contribute to them. Why should the support of the poor be thrown entirely upon the produce of the land? Why should, the
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maintenance of the poor be provided for by the land alone? Why, too, should the keeping of the highways in order be defrayed from the same source? Was not the manufacturer as much interested in the maintenance of the public peace, and in the good order of the highways, as the landholder, and ought he not to contribute equally to the support of those burthens? He was convinced that the farmers whose petitions he had presented that evening were correct in stating, that though they had met with a liberal reduction, both of tithes and rent, they were no longer in a situation to do justice to themselves, and to the peasantry whose labour they employed. He believed that their condition was such as they described it to be, and therefore he thought that their Lordships ought to inquire into the causes which had rendered it so wretched. He begged to inform their Lordships that the country was looking at present with interest to the deliberations of Parliament; that it was expecting with confidence that the inquiry which had been denied during the last, would be granted in the present Session, and that it was anxious to have an opportunity of showing that its grievances were real, and were entitled to legislative relief and remedy. He also agreed with the noble and learned Lord in thinking that the recent alterations of the currency had added much to our distress. How could it be otherwise, when we were called upon to pay in a metallic currency the burthens which the country had contracted in a paper currency? He believed that a paper currency under proper restrictions would be productive of great advantage to the community. Entertaining such opinions, he should give his cordial and warm support to the Motion of the noble and learned Lord.
Earl Stanhopewished their Lordships to recollect, that he was induced, in the course of the last Session of Parliament, to submit to their consideration a motion in almost every respect similar to the present. That motion was not acceded to by their Lordships, but consistency of conduct, joined to his unaltered opinions, induced him to support the present motion. It had been objected by the noble Earl who spoke first on the other side of the House, that this Motion seemed to imply a want of confidence in the newly-constituted Administration. Upon that point he differed from the noble Earl; considering

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the Motion of his noble and learned friend, which he should cordially and zealously support, in no respect liable to that objection. So far from being hostile in its nature, or injurious in its effects to the new Administration, it would tend to facilitate and promote those measures which must be adopted to secure peace and prosperity to this unhappy and hitherto ill-conducted Slate. That, however, was a doctrine which he need not insist upon, since he believed it was acknowledged by all their Lordships, and especially by the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government, that inquiry was the best, and, indeed, the only mode of restoring to prosperity those classes whose interests are inseparably connected with those of the State; and if that prosperity were not restored, the established order of things could not long continue to exist in this country. That inquiry is the best and only mode of arresting the progress of those disturbances which have unfortunately prevailed in so many districts, and which have plunged them into a state of the most fearful anarchy—that it is the best and only mode of affording protection to property, which, owing to bad legislative measures, has long ceased to have any security—that investigation and inquiry are the best and only modes of effecting these objects, no man who reflected upon the subject for one moment could entertain a doubt. Distress and discontent, tumult and disorder, could never be effectually suppressed without inquiry into their causes; or, according to the language of him who had been represented as the wisest of mankind—Lord Bacon— "the way to crush sedition was to expel the matter of it." As to the conduct of the noble Earl and his Administration he was not disposed to speak at any length, for, like other Governments, the present ought to be judged by its measures. But, at the same time, he was not aware that the House was already reduced to that degraded and disgraceful situation that it must repose a blind confidence in the executive government, and must sink, at this awful period, into nothing more than a mere court for the registering of the royal edicts. It might be proper, perhaps, that he should shortly advert—but in doing so he trusted that his observations might not tend to increase that which every good man must wish most anxiously to diminish—to the unfortunate irritation
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now existing in many parts of the country—it might be proper, perhaps, that he should advert briefly, and in justification of the part taken by so humble an individual as himself, to transactions of no very distant date. As often as opportunities presented themselves in the course of the last Session of Parliament, he had earnestly, but most ineffectually, represented to their Lordships and to the then Administration, that all the productive classes of the community—all those interests which are the most valuable and important, and which it is the bounden duty of the Legislature to protect at almost any sacrifice— that all these classes were suffering under the pressure of severe and unexampled distress—distress equally awful and appalling in its nature and extent, and fearful and alarming in its probable consequences. But in vain did he represent to their Lordships that the continuance of that grievous distress, bearing with severe and intolerable pressure upon all the labouring classes of the community, must inevitably tend to produce great and general discontent. And, in fact, it was impossible discontent should not exist when the owner of the land found, notwithstanding all his reductions of rent— having brought them back in some cases to the standard of the period preceding the late war (and in one case he knew that a party had so reduced his rents, that he did not attempt to collect more, and, in fact, did not receive more than the interest of the money, which he had laid out in the agricultural buildings he had raised upon his land; he said, that it was impossible discontent should not exist when the occupier of the land found—notwithstanding all his skill, his industry, his frugality, prudence and perseverance—his capital daily wasting away expecting it would soon vanish altogether, and seeing no other means of support left to him than to throw himself upon those very rates to which he had previously contributed. He asked, also, whether great and just discontent must not exist when all the industrious and commercial classes,—the shipowners, the manufacturers, the merchants, and the shop-keepers—found that they were carrying on their trade not only without profit, but in some cases with actual loss? And last, but not least, could it be wondered at, that discontent should exist, when the labourers and artizans, were either on the one hand deprived

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of employment, and were driven, for the means of subsistence, to the poor-rates, —or, on the other were compelled to accept a miserable and insufficient pittance as a reward of their labour. Their Lordships would perhaps recollect, that in addressing them formerly upon this subject, he raised his feeble voice to warn them of the consequences which must arise if some legislative measures of relief were not adopted. Their Lordships would, perhaps, also, do him the honour to recollect that he had represented in a forcible manner, that the then existing distress must inevitably produce danger. That danger is now arrived—a danger greater in magnitude, more formidable in all its circumstances, more tremendous in every respect, than any which has been witnessed since the period of the first French Revolution. He did not wish to assume the sole credit of having descried this danger, it was foreseen and forcibly dwelt upon by the noble Earl who spoke last, and by the noble Duke (Richmond) who, he was happy to find, had become a Member and an ornament of the new Administration. Those noble Peers also submitted motions in the course of the last Session, upon the subject of the distress, but their Lordships, persevering in the same course which they had adopted with respect to his motion, rejected theirs. Notwithstanding all the exertions of those who had the interests of the country really at heart, their Lordships refused to afford relief, and even to grant inquiry. Could they wonder, then, that they had lost the attachment and confidence of the people? He had stated on former occasions, what he then repeated, that if they were inattentive to the interests of the people—regardless of their welfare,—deaf to their complaints—if they refused to inquire into the causes of the general suffering— the greatest of all mischiefs must inevitably occur. That mischief which he and others foresaw and predicted long before it occurred had arrived. They had stated, that if some remedy were not afforded, the suffering and oppressed people, instead of approaching the House with humble petitions—with earnest expostulations — with respectful entreaties—would ere long express their discontent in another and a more dangerous manner. We had now arrived at that period. Proper measures adopted some few months since might, have prevented all the mischief which
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had taken place; but being now at the eleventh hour, beyond which it was impossible to refuse inquiry with any safety to the country, he entreated their Lordships, without going into all the statements and various arguments which had been urged on former occasions, if they valued the confidence and good opinion of their fellow citizens—which he, for one, was more proud to enjoy than any hereditary honour, or any that Government could bestow -he conjured and entreated them, if they were anxious to preserve to that House its constitutional power,—if they were anxious to rescue the country from a state of disorder, not only without example in its history, but, as far as he knew, unexampled in any country which did not immediately afterwards become the victim of convulsion—he conjured their Lordships, at this awful period, to cast aside all other considerations, and to stand forth boldly, with the determination of performing their duty to their country. With respect to the degree of confidence to be placed in the present Administration, he wished to state his opinion frankly and openly. It was not satisfactory to him to see so large a proportion of the present Cabinet composed of persons whose opinions upon many important subjects were entirely different from his own. He did not consider consistency in error a virtue in statesmen, and therefore he hoped, that the experience and evidence of facts would induce them to consider those particular subjects in a different point of view from that which they had hitherto seized upon. He trusted that this effect would be produced on the noble Duke, for whom he entertained a sincere respect, and whose opinions with respect to the protection due to agriculture were exactly his own, and upon the right hon. Baronet who presided over the naval department, for which he was not, perhaps, particularly qualified, but the duties of which he would, no doubt, endeavour conscientiously to discharge. He could assure the noble Earl at the head of the Government that on two questions he should receive his cordial and zealous support—a support humble and insignificant in itself, and perhaps indifferent to him, but which, at least, had the merit of being conscientious. The first of these questions was that principle of non-interference which he had adopted as the basis of his foreign policy,—a principle which he earnestly

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trusted would preserve peace without dishonour. The other subject was of still greater importance,—upon which he felt most strongly, and upon which the noble Earl, so far as his statements had hitherto gone, was entitled to the gratitude of the country—he meant Parliamentary Reform. If he were a new convert to that doctrine, he should feel no hesitation in avowing it; but it was many years since he stated his conviction that a reform in the Commons' House of Parliament had become indispensably necessary. That conviction had acquired additional strength from the circumstances and events which had since occurred; and, therefore, he thought the noble Earl at the head of the Government entitled to the gratitude of his country for having undertaken to accomplish such a reform. He certainly meant reform conducted on proper principles, and with cautious prudence,—which would preserve, not destroy—strengthen not impair—the existing institutions of the country; but which would, at the same time, be a real, substantial, and effectual reform of the Commons' House of Parliament. The noble Lord on the Woolsack, had devoted his attention, and employed his powerful abilities, in considering that subject, and he hoped that, when that noble Lord had matured his plan, it would be found well qualified to satisfy the just expectations of the people on the one hand, and to secure the Constitution from the danger of violent innovations on the other. With respect to retrenchment and economy, however desirable they might be in principle, or for the sake of example, as the means of affording any extensive relief to the people in their present distressed state, they must be totally ineffective,—and he thought their Lordships held out a delusive hope when they promised relief by retrenchment or by reduction of taxation. He was convinced that the burthens of the country could not be so much reduced as to afford any sensible relief to the people. On the currency, which had been adverted to, by his noble and learned friend, he should say but a very few words. Their Lordships were, indeed, already aware of his opinions upon that subject, and therefore he should not repeat them. Their Lordships, however, ought not to disguise from themselves the situation in which they were placed with respect to this question. They had but two alternatives,
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both of which were full of difficulty, but from which they could not escape. The one alternative was, by a return to a paper currency, to raise prices, or, if they rejected that, and persevered in supporting the present metallic currency, then the only other alternative was to reduce all payments to the same scale. If they maintained the metallic currency, they must regulate all the payments for the Debt, and all the establishments of the country by the standard of 1792, and such a change could not be effected without convulsion. These, however, were the only alternatives left to Government, and one or other it must adopt—there was no third course —no royal road more than to geometry to national prosperity. On the Corn-laws his opinions remained unchanged; but as this subject was adverted to by the noble and learned Lord who brought forward the Motion, and as his observations had been answered at considerable length by the noble Baron (Lord King) he might, perhaps, be pardoned for saying a few words upon it. If, to protect the productive classes, the present, or any other Government, should consider that there ought to be a perfectly free trade in corn —that it should be admitted at all times and in all quantities, without the payment of any duty, to that he should make no opposition, if it were accompanied by the conditions he should presently state. He was ready to vote instantly for an entire abolition of the Corn-laws, provided at the same time, their Lordships would take measures to enable the corn-grower of this country to compete with the foreign grower on equal terms. Let justice be done to all parties. If corn, as a necessary of life, is to be imported without duty, let articles of every kind that can by possibility be introduced into the country, be also imported duty free—let no tax be made to bear exclusively on the agriculturist—let the poor-rates be borne equally by the manufacturers, who now contributed no share towards them—let funded property bear an equal part of the national burthens— above all, let every tax which immediately affects the agriculturist be removed. Abolish the malt-duty, the hop-duty, the tax on British spirits, and all other taxes whatever, which press exclusively on the industry of the agriculturists—do this, and then abolish, if their Lordships pleased, the whole system of Corn-laws. If they meant to undertake such an abolition, let

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them look to the consequences; let them look at the conditions to which they must necessarily submit. No argument taken from the writings of the most eminent political writers, illustrated by the speeches of the noble Baron, would be sufficient to convince the owners, occupiers, and cultivators of land that the Corn-laws ought to be abolished, and that this country ought to depend for its support entirely on a foreign supply. Before their Lordships could carry the abolition of the Corn-laws, they must, therefore, abolish all the taxes to which he had alluded, and even then they must expect to encounter the opposition and even the hostility of all persons connected with the land. Here he could not refrain from noticing an observation which had been made by a noble Earl (Rosebery) on the opposite side of the House, who seemed to take so imperfect and narrow a view of the state of the country, as to suppose that all the distress originated from a mal-administration of the Poor-laws. That was a most mistaken notion. What was the cause that so many of the labouring poor were out of employment? Why were their Lordships now occupied in an examination of the situation of the distressed poor, and of the pressure of those laws which were passed for their relief? The cause was this—and it would not be denied by any man at all acquainted with the real situation of the country— the landed proprietors had no longer the means of giving the same employment as formerly. While, on the one hand, labourers had an undoubted right to expect a fair and proper remuneration for their labour (for Holy Writ said, that "the labourer was worthy of his hire;") on the other hand, it was impossible, with the present prices of produce, that the cultivators of the soil could afford an adequate remuneration for the services of their workmen. In short, the measures adopted with respect to the currency in the years 1819 and 1826, had not only been edicts of confiscation, but also commissions of bankruptcy—issued against all the owners and occupiers of land in the country. Was there ever a time, he would ask, in the memory of the oldest Peer, or in the oldest times, in which the active interference of a Government was so much required to alleviate the distress of a people? He felt great sorrow and surprise that, as soon as the motion was made, the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's
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Government did not immediately rise in his place and express his cordial concurrence in it; for whatever might be the industry of his Majesty's Ministers (and he entertained no doubt upon that point) whatever might be the talent of the individual members of the Cabinet, (which he did not dispute)—it was utterly impossible, occupied as they were by the arduous and important duties which belonged to their office, that they could devote sufficient attention to the investigation of such a subject as that of the distress of the country. Much assistance, therefore, would be afforded them by the inquiries of such a committee as that his noble and learned friend had moved for. It was very easy, when a motion of this kind was submitted to the House, to find out some argument or another to meet it; and thus the noble Earl who opposed it had also opposed, though not exactly upon the same ground, but with equal pertinacity, a motion which he (Earl Stanhope) made in February last, but who in the following month, lent his support to a motion for a somewhat more limited inquiry. If any inquiry were necessary then, what reason could be assigned why a general inquiry was not necessary now? Were their Lordships to confine their investigation to one part, when there were many others which required their attention and consideration; and when inquiry could no longer be delayed without danger. He saw on the other side of the House a noble Earl (Darnley) connected, like himself, with the county of Kent, who was pleased, during the former Session, to contradict, repeatedly, all the allegations respecting the severe and unprecedented distress which existed in that county, as well as in some others. The noble Earl did not venture to state that there was no distress at all; but he confined it to as narrow a space as possible, and contended, that the statements of distress were exaggerated— not to say absurd. The noble Earl even went so far as to caution the House against such statements, but would the noble Earl, or any other noble Lord connected with Kent, or any of the disturbed districts, still continue to maintain that those statements were exaggerated? Would they still maintain with the country in a state of conflagration from midnight incendiaries, that there was no ground for inquiry? There was no necessity for him to point out to their Lordships the melancholy results of

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the apathy of the late Ministry; or to inflict upon them, the pain of beholding the lamentable situation in which the country is placed,—a situation which inflicted indelible disgrace upon the immediate predecessors of the present Ministers. He regretted as much as any man those turbulent proceedings which for so long a period were happily averted; but which were spreading throughout the country. He had no doubt but that the earnest attention of the present Government would be directed to suppress these violent and tumultuous proceedings; but the best mode of opposing them was not by sending those circulars which appeared to be so much in fashion with the noble Viscount at the head of the Home Department. The only mode of effectually putting an end to these tumults was, to investigate the cause from which they originated. This, if not done by the Ministry, it was the duty of their Lordships to undertake; a sacred duty imposed on them by their station, and they could not neglect to investigate the causes of the evils which afflict and alarm the whole country, endeavouring by the best means in their power to afford speedy and effectual relief, without giving up all their functions, and placing in jeopardy their own property, and the best institutions of the State. He had already detained their Lordships longer, than he intended; but there was still one observation which he wished to make, in reference to what had fallen from his noble friend upon the cross-bench, with respect to machinery. If his noble and learned friend had considered the objections which had been urged against machinery, he would have found that they were confined almost exclusively to machinery of recent introduction, which materially supersedes the employment of manual labour. To these objections he was disposed to assent; but was it therefore to be supposed, because some machinery was objectionable, that all should be abolished? Certainly not. Justice and regard for the rights of the labouring poor ought to impose some restriction on those who possessed any of the recently-invented agricultural machinery, and they should discontinue its use. Many arguments might be adduced in favour of machinery; but in these times, the opinion of every person who possessed any knowledge upon the subject was, that it is the duty of those who have hitherto employed domestic
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machinery to discontinue its use. Of all the descriptions of machinery, none was more injurious than that which deprived the agricultural labourer of the opportunity to exert his manual skill—it deprived him of that which was his capital—and reduced him to a state of pauperism. Reverting, then, to the motion before the House, he must say, that he hoped that those noble Lords who had assumed the reins of Government, would give a pledge of their sincerity, by affording the means of immediate inquiry into the distress of the country, with a view to afford relief. He was sure, and he stated it with sorrow, that the dangers of this country might have been prevented by a timely application of prudent and wise measures. Neglected, however, as the people had been, outrage and violence might increase to such an extent as to overwhelm us with ruin, if redress were longer delayed. And if,—notwithstanding what the noble Earl asserted,—if on this, as on almost every other occasion of a like kind, a change of Ministry was not to produce a change of measures—if the same system was to be pursued—if the same evils were to be continued—if inquiry was to be refused—or if it were to be postponed till an uncertain and indefinite time, perhaps to a distant period—if no relief from those intolerable grievances which threatened destruction to the country were instantly given;—if all these things occurred, it would become a matter of serious consideration with him and those who thought with him, whether it would be proper for them any longer to continue the semblance of discussion in that House, or whether they should not retire altogether, leaving to those who might choose to remain, the undisturbed and undivided responsibility of their measures, and of all the calamities and convulsions which might be the results.
The Earl of Roseberyexplained, that the noble Earl had very much misrepresented, undoubtedly because he misunderstood, what fell from him. He was far from thinking that the committee to consider of the Poor-laws was sufficient to ascertain all the causes of the distress of the labouring classes. What he meant was, that after an inquiry had been instituted by the House into one of those causes, and after the Ministers had stated that they would investigate the subject, he considered it inexpedient to enter into a more extended inquiry.
The Earl of Eldonalso explained, that the noble Earl did not quite understand the observations which he made upon the subject of machinery. Upon the motion before the House he could only repeat, that after the best consideration he had been able to give to the state of the country, he deemed inquiry necessary; and should support the Motion.
The Earl of Radnorwished to state, very shortly, the reasons which induced him to vote against the Motion. He was the more especially anxious to claim this indulgence, after the speeches of the two noble Earls who last addressed the House, because from their arguments it would appear, that he should act most inconsistently with his former conduct in voting against this Motion. The circumstances of the present case were, however, totally different from those under which he voted last Session, and this alone he deemed a sufficient apology, if apology were necessary, for the vote he meant to give. But before he entered more fully into a description of this change of circumstances, he felt it incumbent upon him to allude a little to the spirit in which this Motion had been introduced. The noble and learned Lord, in moving for a committee to inquire into all the causes of distress, had stated in a very able and animated manner what he conceived those causes to be. They were sufficiently numerous; and to meet his wishes, the committee, which he called upon their Lordships to appoint, would, among other things, have to inquire into the nature and operation of the Poor-laws, the Cornlaws, Free-trade, the Currency system, and the question of encouraging or discouraging machinery. He should like to ask how any body of men, whether in a committee or out of it, could bring their minds properly and fully to investigate all these subjects? Differences of opinion would necessarily arise among the members of any committee, which would effectually preclude them from arriving at any practicable results. The noble Earl who spoke last expressed an opinion in favour of regulating the use of machinery—but only to a certain extent—that which has been recently introduced. Upon that point alone how many points of dissension might arise! Some noble Lords, perhaps, would think that, under this appellation of recently introduced machinery, were included thrashing machines—others that
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it included ploughs and the ordinary implements used to further the progress of cultivation. How would it be possible for any committee to decide by any fixed principle a point of this kind? Similar difficulties would arise upon the great questions of the Currency and the Cornlaws. In short, it was vain—not to say absurd—to suppose, that subjects so weighty and multifarious could, of possibility, be properly considered by one committee. And he must say that, generally speaking, although he supported a motion of this kind in the last Session of Parliament,— and although he had frequently supported motions for inquiry—still he was of opinion that, in modern times, no good could result from them, because they took too much out of the hands of Ministers—relieved them of the responsibility imposed on them, and if they did well, deprived them of much of the merit which was their due. Generally speaking, therefore, he was opposed to all committees for general inquiry. On the present occasion, he could not agree with his noble and learned friend, that the country had arrived at such a state as to render it imperative upon their Lordships to enter into the inquiry he proposed. The present Motion was submitted to their Lordships under extraordinary circumstances, of which none struck him more than the tone and manner in which the noble Earl who had just addressed the House, had advocated the necessity of a reform in Parliament. Were he a Member, indeed, of the other House of Parliament, where he had spent so many years of his political life, when the necessity of reform was admitted on all hands—and was actually to become a Government measure—he might perhaps move for a committee, though not such a one as that proposed by the noble and learned Lord. "If," said the noble Earl, "I had a seat this Session in the other House of Parliament, I should most probably vote for—not a committee with respect to reform—for that would be unnecessary—but for the impeachment of the members of the late Government, who went out of Office leaving the country in the most perilous condition—in a state verging on the actual dissolution of society —and that, too, without being visited by the vengeance of an insulted and—"
Lords Teynham and Stanhoperose to order.
The latter noble Lord read the fifteenth

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Resolution on the Journals, which forbad "all personal attacks" like to that of the noble Earl.
The Earl of Radnor:— "I do not intend my observations in a personal sense. I had no personal allusion. I could not have any personal feelings against the late Government individually; and spoke of them only in their aggregate ministerial capacity. I will, besides, not stand by the word ' vengeance.' It was not, perhaps, the very exact phrase I meant. Your Lordships must perceive that my expressions come to me but slowly, and I am oftentimes therefore obliged to put up with the first that comes, not having the choice of a selection. While I state this with respect to the word 'vengeance,' I beg leave to add that, I do not at all retract the sentiment which it was intended to express." The noble Earl proceeded to say, that he thought the Motion for inquiry uncalled for in itself, as well as unjust to the new Government. It should be recollected that the noble Earl (Grey) and his colleagues opposite had been but three weeks in Office, and yet they had at the earliest hour stated their determination to apply their best energies to the investigation and remedy of the distressed condition of the country. It was, apart from the impolicy of relieving Ministers from the responsibility of the exercise of their executive functions, but justice and common fairness to await the result of their pledges. He was no blind adherent to any set of men, but placed great confidence in the present Administration, knowing that it possessed more ability, knowledge, and fewer prejudices, than any within his recollection. It was but fair, then, to give them a trial. If after the recess they should fail to redeem their pledges, the noble and learned Lord might come forward with his Motion under circumstances much more favourable to its success than possibly could exist at present. Besides, the House was then about to adjourn for some six or seven weeks,—so that, if even the noble Lord's Committee were appointed, it could not have more than one or two sittings till the month of February,—before which time, it was but fair to presume, Ministers would be prepared with some measure of domestic policy, which would supersede inquiry by the objectionable form of committee. Did the noble Lord mean that Parliament should continue to sit through
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the Christmas holidays? If he did, he might be assured that noble Lords, as well as the Members of the other House, would be much more advantageously employed in respect to the public interest by spending the ensuing weeks in the country, at their respective residences, and by precept and example enforcing obedience to the laws—inquiring into and extending relief to the distressed labouring classes—than by profitless and tedious discussion in committee, from which no beneficial result could follow. Their Lordships could not too anxiously investigate with their own eyes the present state of the country, with a view to a remedy, and to prevent its recurrence. It was impossible to exaggerate the sad picture which so many parts of the country presented. The social arrangements of society were every day falling asunder, the links which held it together were every hour loosening, and the body corporate, from the sole of the foot to the crown of the head—so to speak —was one foul mass—diseased, and full of putrid sores. For the last fifty years the Governments of this country had been pursuing the one fatal course of adding to the burthens of the poor, by unequal taxes and most oppressive laws, while they guarded with the most jealous eye every so-called privilege of the wealthier, but less industrious, classes; and the country was now only beginning to experience the inevitable fruits of such mischievous conduct in the discontent which rankled in the bosoms of the labouring classes, and in the feelings of vindictive hostility with which they regarded the class above them, which feelings it was to be feared would be adopted by the several ranks of society to those above them, till all were swallowed in some great convulsion. The people had long waited in patience for a redress of their grievances, but had waited in vain. They were told to petition; they had petitioned, for the great remedy of their ills—a reform in Parliament; in one year upwards of 1,000,000 petitioners had approached Parliament for this purpose; but the petitions were rejected with scorn, and were not even read. But he trusted that a better state of things would arise from the beneficial change which had recently taken place in the national councils. The Ministers had come into Office under most arduous circumstances; he heartily wished them success in their honest endeavours, and he would on no

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account be a party to any measures like the present inquiry, which should tend to hamper their course.
The Duke of Wellingtonhad, last Session, opposed a motion similar to that then before their Lordships, and would, for the same reasons, now oppose the present Motion. He was as alive as any man who heard him to the distressed state of the country, and had never attempted to extenuate it. But it was absurd to attribute it to any measure of the Administration of which he had been a member, as had been asserted by the noble Earl who had just addressed the House. With respect to the broad censure on the late Government, cast by that noble Earl, he on the part of himself and his colleagues, challenged the noble Earl to come forward and prove, that the distress and disturbance which disfigured many districts of the country were at all owing to any of their measures or their general policy. Let the noble Earl, if he thought so, come forward with a distinct proposition of inquiry, and he promised to meet him. He had last Session opposed a motion, as he had stated, like the present, because he agreed with that noble Earl that it would be prejudicial to the general interests of the country instead of being a benefit; and because it embraced several most important subjects, each of which would require a long and undivided consideration. The noble and learned Lord who proposed the inquiry had pointed out, as topics for investigation our financial and monetary system, our commercial policy, the Poor-laws, the Corn-laws, and the use of machinery, It was impossible for any committee to thoroughly sift all these important questions, or come to any practical decision on them; so that the disappointment of the expectations which its appointment must excite in the public mind, would be ten times more mischievous in its results than the grievance for which it was intended as a remedy. It was not just, besides, to the Ministers who had so recently come into Office, to thus involve them in difficulties from which they could have no time to extricate themselves. He had last Session objected to such a motion, because it would then have involved Ministers in difficulties, and for that reason, in addition to the other reasons on which he had then resisted it, he would, he repeated, vote against the present Motion. Their Lordships had already a committee inquiring into the
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abuses of the Poor-laws, with a view to a remedy, and that committee might very easily extend its investigations to the question mooted by the noble Earl (Stanhope) on the cross-bench,—viz. the expediency of a better distribution of poor-rates among the manufacturers and funded interests, and to other analogous topics connected with the distress of the country, without exceeding the bounds prescribed for its inquiries, and without the necessity of appointing another committee. He had not, as he had before stated, attempted to extenuate the dangerous condition of the country, but would most emphatically deny that it had any connexion with any measure of the late Government, or that it could in any way be said to originate from any portion of the policy pursued by him and his late colleagues. "No," said the noble Duke, "the dangers and disturbances with which some districts of the country have been some time infested, have sprung from very different causes, among which, the example—I will unhesitatingly say, the bad example—afforded by the neighbouring States, has been the most influential, as it has been the most pernicious. This has been encouraged and heightened by the misrepresentations and false ideas which have been too generally circulated throughout the country, of the causes and the character of the unfortunate events which occurred last summer in an adjoining kingdom; and above all, by a want of knowledge on the part of the people of the real nature of those events, and of the mischiefs sure to follow from imitating them. These were the causes of the present disturbed condition of the country, and not any measure of the late Government; and if the noble Earl thinks otherwise, let him point out what measure or what course of policy of ours led to this state; and, as I before said, I shall be prepared to meet him." The fact was, the causes of the distressed condition of certain districts, which they all lamented, were beyond the reach or the control of any Government. How, for example, Could any Ministers provide a prompt remedy for the distress of the labouring classes as it arose from an abuse of the Poor-laws; or could they act otherwise with respect to the disturbances than as the noble Viscount at the head of the Home Department had acted, so far as precept was concerned—and by example, each according to his abilities and station?

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He and his colleagues had gone as far as they could go constitutionally with a view to remedy the distresses of the country, and it was too much to insinuate, as had been done, that they had neglected their duty. He had even heard it whispered, that the late Ministers had been neglectful of the progress of the disturbances which disfigured some districts of the country. This was not the fact. From the very first moment they had devised and adopted every means in their power for aiding with their advice—and, if unfortunately necessary, with force —the local magistrates in their endeavours to preserve the public peace. It was plain that Ministers could not do more, and that the details of the administration of justice, and of enforcing the laws so as to suppress disturbance, must be left to the discretion and vigilance of the Magistrates on the spot. From the very first moment that his noble friend, the Lord-lieutenant for the county of Kent, had communicated to him — and he believed he was the first member of the late Government who had heard of the disturbance—respecting the discontent and commotions in that county, he and his colleagues had unceasingly applied themselves to get the better of them. "The noble Earl," continued the noble Duke, "who has imputed this discontent to our policy, has, however, shifted his ground, and after calling for vengeance on us of the late Administration, ascribes the present disturbed state of the public mind to the unwise impolicy of the Governments of the last fifty years,—implicating of course, my noble and learned friend (Eldon) on the Cross-bench. On this point I must say, that my noble and learned friend had as much hand in the present disturbances of the country as I had; for I repeat, it was not till the misfortunes, for such I consider them, of July and August last, had happened in a neighbouring State; and had been misrepresented in their character and origin, that the people here were induced to follow the bad example held out to them; and since that not, having been enlightened as to the mischievous consequences of following that example, the condition of the labouring classes assumed its present aspect. During our Administration, my Lords, we did all we could to relieve the people. In last Session 3,900,000 l. worth of taxation was taken off; and since then the commercial and manufacturing interests of the country generally have
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been in a state of prosperity and tranquillity, except in those districts where there are gross and disgraceful disturbances. These, however, I trust, are but local and temporary. Indeed, I am emboldened to think that they are so; for with the exception of these gross and disgracefully disturbed districts, an improving revenue, and increased consumption and demand for our manufactures and commodities, show that the country at large is in a state of tranquillity and prosperity. The noble Duke concluded by saying, my Lords, I have, in consequence of the attack of the noble Earl, trespassed longer on your attention than I otherwise should have done, or than I trust I shall again find necessary.
The Earl of Eldonwith reference to the insinuation of the noble Earl (Radnor) begged to say, that it was amongst the greatest of his consolations, on a retrospect of his political life, that he had always advocated political principles the very opposite to those maintained by the noble Earl.
Earl Greysaid, that what he had to state might be put in a very small compass. He did not feel himself called upon to state his opinions and views respecting the various subjects which had been introduced by the noble and learned Lord. He was not prepared for it. He had no reason to expect that the discussion would have taken such a course. He did not feel called upon to touch on subjects, each of which would require long and anxious consideration. He did not feel qualified at the moment to enter on the Corn-laws, or the novel proposition respecting machinery, which had been broached by a noble Earl. He did not think he could do so with honour to himself, or advantage to the country. He asked the noble Earl what he meant by ancient machinery— was it a spade—was it a plough—or did he mean to retain the rude implements of agriculture, and reject all improvements? He objected to the committee upon the grounds set forth by the noble Earl, who spoke before the noble Duke, and he thought the course pursued that night fully demonstrated the inutility of a committee such as was moved for by the noble and learned Lord. To the Committee on the Poor-laws he had given his cheerful assent, feeling that inquiry might be useful, as it was likely to lead to the correction of that which was known to be a great evil,

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namely, the mal-administration of these laws; and also of those defects which had, to a certain extent perverted them from the benevolent purposes to which they had been originally directed. For the distress of" the country he felt most acutely, as every man with a heart must feel, although he believed it was much exaggerated in the glowing description of the noble Lord, and he thought that some practical result respecting it might be arrived at by the committee on the Poor-laws. Therefore had he consented to that committee, concluding that the public distress would immediately come under its consideration, and its attention be thus directed to the consideration of the labouring portion of the community. To that the attention of his Majesty's Ministers ought in the first instance to be applied, and if they can ascertain, that by any alteration of the laws, or by any modification of our institutions, or by any new enactment, the relief of the present distress of that portion of the people, and the permanent amelioration of their condition can be effected, it would be their duty to submit such measures to the consideration of Parliament without delay. But he greatly doubted that any beneficial consequences would result from the committee proposed by the noble and learned Lord. It was true that he had often supported applications for committees: but in doing so he should always wish to observe the distinction laid down by a noble Lord opposite, to whom he should return his sincere thanks for the kind disposition which he had expressed towards the members of the present Administration. In acquiescing in, or in opposing, a proposal for a committee, he should, of course, be greatly influenced by the object of the inquiry, by the time, and by the mode in which it was applied for. He was almost ashamed to repeat what had been already more than once objected, that it was impossible to see any way through the mass of subjects which the noble Lord had introduced. First, there was the question of rents and the division of farms. Now, he (Earl Grey) did not know whether the noble and learned Lord contemplated interfering with the rights of property; but whether such was his intention or not, all matters respecting the amount of rents, and the extent of farms, would be much better regulated by the individuals who were immediately interested than by any committee
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of their Lordships. In those, as in most cases, the interference of the Legislature, in prescribing to individuals the mode in which they are to regulate their own property, was most likely to produce a contrary effect to that which had been anticipated. He certainly did think that the mode in which some taxes in this country were imposed; perhaps, in some measure, the policy by which the imposition of them had been directed, and, in many instances, the nature of the taxes themselves, deserved deep consideration. It might be expedient to inquire whether by the alteration of some, and by the removal, or by the diminution of others, the country might not derive great benefit. But he could not enter into the multitudinous topics of the noble and learned Lord's speech. Something had been said about consulting the ease of the Administration by the appointment of the committee. God knows! there was no situation of life more generally full of difficulty and trouble than that of the Ministers of the Crown, and at the present moment the ordinary difficulties and trouble were enhanced tenfold. For them it was no time to think of ease or take refuge in a committee from any of the heavy responsibility they had taken upon themselves. He should not have much objection to the noble and learned Lord taking with him to a room above stairs a few of the noble Lords near him, who were desirous of having the committee. Let it not be supposed that he would shrink from the performance of his duty. He would, as readily as any Minister that had preceded him, come down there and call on Parliament for inquiry, when the interests of the nation might render it necessary. Should an emergency require it, he would not hesitate to enter upon any investigation, or to meet by special legislation an important occasion, for which existing laws did not provide but he could not consent to a proceeding from which he had no hope that any good could result. With respect to the question of the currency, one of the topics referred to by the noble and learned Lord, that had already been discussed in two or three committees. That subject alone would furnish the noble Lord quite work enough, without touching upon any one of those numerous matters which he proposed to investigate at the same time. Now, he had no hesitation in saying, that there had been many unfortunate mistakes

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in the interference of the Legislature with the currency of the kingdom. A noble Lord had referred to something which he (Earl Grey) had said last year when presenting a petition. It was quite true, that he did, on that occasion, or on some occasion, say that it was a strange anomaly to have the currency in Ireland and in Scotland regulated on one principle, whilst that of England was regulated upon another directly contrary. He would by no means say, that he had since altered his opinion in that respect; but, however much he believed the late Government to have erred in the measures which they had adopted affecting the currency, still he should pause before he consented to entertain any proposition for another change. He believed that great evil must be occasioned by creating any doubt as to the stability of the present regulations. There was great danger in exciting agitation respecting it, and that danger he would not willingly consent to risk. As to the question of the Corn-laws, which the noble and learned Lord had also introduced, he did not know that he had much to reply. All the interest which he possessed in the world was in land; and, though he would not pretend to be exempt from the common frailties of human nature, yet he hoped he had considered that question fully, and, he believed, disinterestedly and dispassionately. He was entirely convinced, as the result of his investigations, that the ultimate interest of the people themselves required that the agriculture of the country should be protected; because, without such a protection, the people could not be assured, in all seasons, of a sufficient, a certain, and he would add, a cheap, supply. He believed that principle was generally acquiesced in, though a few persons yet objected to it. He knew, indeed, that there were some persons who had the courage to recommend the entire abolition of the laws which regulated the trade in corn; but, for his part, he had not nerves to undertake so hazardous an experiment, for he knew well that if it should fail, the evils which it would occasion could not be remedied. They would lead to the destruction of the country. Although such were his opinions, yet he was not so wedded to the Corn-laws as to say, that if the subject were introduced at a proper season, he would oppose the consideration of it; but he must say, that no question of such a nature ought to be
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introduced in a season of great popular excitement. It was the opinion of many persons well acquainted with the subject, that the country had greatly benefitted by those laws—that they had greatly promoted the improvement of its agriculture, and led to an increased supply of corn. But he had a second opinion respecting them, which was, that there could hardly be a greater evil than that the state of the law affecting the agricultural interests should be fluctuating, and subject to continual changes. Repeated alterations produced evils which could not be compensated for by the benefits expected from the improvement. He would repeat, that at a proper season he should not resist an inquiry into the subject; but at present, when the agitation of it could not fail to be mischievous, he was unwilling to go into the inquiry on that ground alone, independently of his conviction that the Corn-laws had produced to the country, not evil but great good. But there, again, such a field of discussion was opened by the introduction of that topic, that if the proposed committee should apply itself to the investigation of that alone, they would find ample employment for the whole Session. Now he would ask the noble and learned Earl opposite (Eldon), who was so great an enemy to delay upon the present occasion, however friendly to it on others, did he expect to proceed promptly and vigorously by the means which he had proposed? Could he expect to gain with promptitude and speed, by a Commission of Inquiry, the object which he professed to have in view? Could he bring before a committee the numerous questions of which he had that evening spoken, in such a shape as to afford hope of a speedy determination? With respect to the complaint made by the noble and learned Lord who introduced the Motion that capital could not find employment—that it consequently lay unproductive in the money-chest of the capitalist, he would ask, was the assertion consistent with other statements of the noble and learned Lord himself? He was sure the noble and learned Lord opposite, who had made the complaint, was himself the last man in the world who would, like the grasping and discontented usurer, hoard up his gold under locks and bolts, until the prospect of excessive gain should tempt him to release it. That the employment of capital was not now so productive as it had been at some other periods was

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quite true; but he hoped that, before long, the renovated activity in other departments of the national commerce would enable capital also to find employment. However, the fact that the rate of interest was then lower than it had been at any former period, far from showing that capital was locked up, completely proved the contrary. The lower rate of interest was occasioned by the greater liberality with which capital was employed. When there were such great differences of opinion on every one of the complicated and intricate subjects mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, was it to be supposed that a committee would come to a speedy decision upon subjects that were not only complicated and intricate, but so numerous, and, in some respects, so contradictory, as those comprehended in the speech of the noble and learned Lord whose Motion was before the House? Although he would not (as he had said) object to inquiry when it could be entered upon with a prospect of advantage, he must oppose the present Motion, because he believed that it had been shown, not only by himself, but by other noble Lords who preceded him, that the proposed inquiry offered no such prospect. The mode in which those various subjects had been introduced, gave rise to great doubts and difficulties, and he was unable to follow the noble Lord in so complicated a discussion. He (Earl Grey) knew, and he deeply regretted the evils which then afflicted the country. He allowed, as had been observed by the noble Duke opposite, that occurrences which had taken place in other countries had had some effect in aggravating those evils, and had been taken advantage of by evil-disposed persons, to operate on the minds of the unthinking, or of the unhappy and discontented. Of that he had no doubt. Vet he could not see how the proposed committee could lead to the discovery of a remedy. At all events, every purpose which the Motion of the noble and learned Lord contemplated, would be much more readily attained by the committee already appointed to investigate the most important objects of the present Motion. For the decision of that committee he was disposed to wait; but if, in the mean time, good grounds should be produced for inquiry, which could afford a reasonable hope of success, he would be willing to enter upon it. But he would ask noble Lords, whether, considering the character
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and objects of the inquiry, the season at which it was proposed did not furnish in itself an insuperable objection to the committee? With respect to what had been said concerning the approaching adjournment, he would say, that noble Lords would not suspend the business of the House for the sake of the usual relaxation of the season if, by continuing to attend in their places, they could promote the welfare of the State. But he believed, that so far from advancing the public good by sitting there in discussions, of which the termination could not be foreseen, he believed that their protracted absence from their respective districts would be injurious. In the present state of the country, nothing was more desirable than that persons of property and influence should as soon as possible have an opportunity of promoting tranquillity in those parts of the country where they respectively resided, using, in the first instance, their power to repress disorder; and in the next, their influence to cultivate amongst the different classes, a better spirit than now, unhappily, seemed to prevail. It should be borne in mind, that the peace and tranquillity of the country required from the magistracy such vigorous measures as would effectually put an end to the outrageous proceedings by which some districts were disgraced. He had heard with concern the remarks which had been made respecting circulars recently issued by the noble Lord near him, as Secretary of State (Lord Melbourne.) The purpose of that letter was, to encourage those Magistrates, who had been active in the discharge of their duty, and to make known to those Magistrates who had allowed themselves to be intimidated into compliance with the exactions of the turbulent, that they increased the mischief by their weakness. Some had not only themselves acquiesced in the violent demands made upon them, but had published advertisements recommending the discontinuance of machinery. Such conduct, far from allaying the discontent, was calculated most grievously to aggravate it. In that, those gentlemen had acted quite inconsistently, not only with the duty of Magistrates deriving authority from recognised laws, but with the wisdom of legislators. If the turbulent were told that clamour, violence, and tumult would prevail over the laws, there would be for ever an end to peaceful society and. to regular govern-

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ment. He hoped that it would not be necessary to use the sword of the law (of which a noble Lord had spoken) further than for the punishment of those who instigated to outrage the simple and undesigning. He hoped that they would be brought to justice, and, at the same time, he trusted that every thing would be done to remove that distress, which had brought men into such a temper that mischievous men could obtain an influence over their minds. In the multitude of subjects which that discussion had embraced, some had doubtless escaped his attention. He had said enough to inform the House of his objections to the Motion; but in the situation in which he then stood, and in which he had been so recently placed, he would not oppose the general wish, should it be against his own opinion. It was sincerely his conviction, that if the Committee were granted it would produce no good. A noble Lord had said, that their Lordships ought not to place a blind confidence in the Administration. Ministers did not desire such confidence. It was acknowledged on all hands that the present was a season of great difficulty. How that difficulty had been produced it was not for him to say. He was much more inclined to consider how evils could be remedied than to inquire how they had arisen. Although he concurred in great part of the policy of the late Administration—although he was indebted to it for carrying that long delayed measure of justice and humanity, which he believed would conduce to the security and prosperity of Ireland, and although it was not his wish to make invidious reflections of any kind; yet it would be affectation not to state his belief, that the difficulties of the present Ministry had resulted from the impolicy of former Governments, through a long series of years, from the beginning of the American war downwards, but especially from the French Revolution, and the war unjustly and unnecessarily entered into, as he would ever maintain, in consequence of that event. He had opposed all those measures in succession, as well as the policy in which they had originated. To them he attributed, not only the immense taxation under which the country laboured, but along train of evils besides. It was now unavailing to look back. Ministers must assiduously apply themselves to devise and to put into practice an efficient remedy; and for that purpose it
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was necessary that their Lordships should allow them to prosecute the subject with no more interruption than the regular business of Parliament rendered unavoidable. Beyond that, they would require no indulgence, nor claim any confidence. He had stated to the House the principles on which the Government was to be carried on, and Ministers did not expect to derive from the nation the necessary support for their proceedings, without proving by practical measures, that they deserved its confidence.
Lord Teynhamwas convinced, that some inquiry was necessary, and he should support the Motion, with an amendment, which he would take the liberty to move, viz. that the subject of the Poor-laws be omitted from the inquiry of the committee.
The Duke of Newcastlemeant to oppose the Motion of the noble and learned Lord. The responsibility of Government should be perfect, and when Ministers took upon themselves to do what was their duty, he for one did not think the interference of the House was necessary. It was the duty of that House to see that Ministers did what was right, and the country could not show too much gratitude to them, if, under existing circumstances, they performed their functions with reference to the interests of the community. He hoped, that his Majesty's Ministers would pursue the part of a parental Government, and administer to the wants and necessities of the country.
The Earl of Fifethought, that it was not right to hold out fallacious hopes, and in the present state of the country, he thought the Motion ought to be resisted. The present agitation arose from a want of consideration for each other by several parties. The manufacturers blamed the masters, and the tenants blamed the landlords; but all parties should be disposed to unite in a disposition to relieve the poor, and in the principle of "live and let live." Many persons talked of Parliamentary Reform as a measure that would suffice to relieve the country; but without attributing to it that magic power which would remove all our difficulties, he thought that the time was now arrived when it could not be longer withheld. At the same time he would say, that in a reform their Lordships should proceed with caution, in order to guard against confusion and anarchy. But reform

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should not be confined to one point. We should have a reform in the law, civil and criminal; and without that, any retrenchment, however extensive, would not be sufficient. To one part of our law he was anxious to call the attention of Government, — that of arrest for debt, which he considered a stain upon the national character. It rendered many persons desperate in their circumstances, and if duly examined, it would no doubt be found that it was as little adapted to benefit the creditor as the debtor. In one part of our law a measure had been introduced by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack in which he cordially concurred. It was a plan by which litigation would be made cheaper, and justice would be brought near to every man's door. From the effect of such a mode of administering the law he anticipated much good to the country. It would be well if, in any modification of the criminal code, their Lordships would look to the state of the criminal law in Scotland, where it was much more mild than in this country, but where, nevertheless, it was found more efficient for the repression and punishment of crime. The attention of their Lordships would, he hoped, be directed not only to those points to which he had adverted, but also to the Poor-laws, the Corn-laws; and even the question of tithes required their serious attention, as also the laws of landlord and tenant, and many others by which the interests of the poorer classes were effected. If conciliatory measures, founded upon a consideration of these laws, with a view to their improvement, were adopted, he had no doubt it would restore peace and confidence to the country. The people were looking with confidence to the sincere disposition known to exist in our excellent Monarch and his amiable Consort to encourage every measure which would tend to relieve their distresses. As to the new Ministry, he would only say, that if they pursued a moderate course, and made it their study to uphold the interest, the welfare, and the honour of the country, they would meet with deserved support. The country was possessed of great resources, which well-timed and temperate measures would call forth so as to enable her to meet and overcome all her difficulties. If any thing could for a moment make him despair of the condition of the country, it would be the knowledge of that malignant feeling which ex-
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isted in some quarters, amongst those only he hoped, who did not reflect—against a noble Duke lately at the head of his Majesty's Government. He thought the noble Duke deserved the thanks, instead of the hostility, of every portion of the country. His conduct, while in command on the Continent, was such as to entitle him to the lasting praise of his country, and he had no doubt that justice would be done him at last. Even from those who differed from the noble Duke, he should have expected that they would at least have done justice to his good intentions. For himself he did not doubt that the noble Duke felt a self-satisfaction, which more than made up for the dissatisfaction expressed by others; so that he might take to himself the words of the poet:—
"One self-approving hour whole years outweighs,
Of stupid starers and of loud huzzas;
And more true joy Marcellus exil'd feels
Than Cæsar with a Senate at his heels."
The Duke of Richmondsaid, that at that late hour he would not occupy the time of their Lordships at any length. He rose chiefly to correct what had been said by his noble friend (Earl Stanhope), which no doubt his noble friend himself would regret when he considered the matter. The noble Earl had said, that the committee up-stairs were not inquiring into the condition of the labouring classes, or the cause of their distress. It did not certainly on the first day—the only day, by the way, on which the noble and learned Lord whose Motion was now before the House was present. No doubt that noble and learned Lord had other important avocations which prevented him, and certainly the same avocations would prevent him, from giving any efficient attendance at the two committees, if the one for which he now moved were appointed. On the first day, a noble Lord on the committee objected to entering into any inquiry into the effect of the change of the currency, as going out of the line of inquiry proposed to the committee, which would have quite enough to do without going into that question; but those noble Lords who did attend the committee would bear him out in the statement, and their Lordships would find, on reference to the evidence, that one of the first questions put to every witness was, "Are the labourers in the same condition that they were ten years ago?" The answer, "They are not;" and then came the

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question, "What, in your opinion, is the cause of the change in their condition?" This, surely, was inquiring into the condition of the labouring poor, and into the cause of the change which had been made in it. He was anxious to set their Lordships and the country right upon this point, to prevent any mistake going abroad that it was not the intention of Government to go into this inquiry. The whole of the case as to the condition of the poor would be gone into, and the committee would come at as much information on the subject as could be obtained by granting the committee for which the noble and learned Lord had moved. He had not risen for the purpose of justifying his own consistency, for he did not think it necessary; but he must say, that he had voted for the committee moved for last session, because at that time he had no confidence in the then Government, which had refused all inquiry, and even denied the existence of the distress to the extent which he knew it to prevail. He did then vote for a full inquiry into the state of the poor, but at that time he stated, that he would not go into the. inquiry as to the Corn-laws or the Currency; but the noble Lord would enter fully into both those points. In the present thin state of the House, and at that late hour, he would not enter into a defence of his consistency, or into a defence of the motives which had induced him to join the present Administration; but he challenged any noble Lord to give him the opportunity of justifying himself before their Lordships and the country on this ground.
Earl Stanhopein explanation, said, that he had not charged the committee up stairs with not being; competent to go through the inquiry into the state of the poor. All he had said was, that their inquiry would not embrace the causes of the distress. What he had said of machinery was, that while he objected to acting from any intimidation, he still considered that the employment of machinery which he considered unnecessary to the country, and injurious to the poor, ought to be got rid of.
The Earl of Carnarvonconceived, that by going into the inquiry proposed by the noble and learned Lord, their Lordships would only embarrass themselves, and not obtain the end they had in view in the committee on which some of them were already engaged. One thing he had heard
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with pleasure from his noble friend (Earl Grey) which was, that on any matter connected with the state of the labouring poor, or the causes of or mode of relief of their distress, his mind was open to conviction. After that statement he would not press the subject on the noble Earl; but he hoped that between this and the meeting after the recess, the Government would consider how far the removal of the credit formerly given by the country banker to the farmer, was a cause of the almost ruin and decay to which so many of the latter class had since fallen. This, he admitted, had nothing to do with the question of general distress, but it was worthy of serious consideration, and would be particularly so when the question of the renewal of the Bank of England charter came to be considered. It was extremely desirable to consider, on that occasion, to what extent it was possible and desirable to introduce the system of chartered banks into this country, the same as in Scotland. By that he thought they would confer the greatest been that had ever been conferred on the country. He would not press the matter now, but he thought the consideration of it would be of much greater benefit than that of the question of non-interference, of the Game-laws, or any other subject that could be brought forward. He meant to give the motion for the committee his decided negative, because he thought it would tend to defeat its own object. He would wait for well-digested measures—which he hoped from the present Government; but if a long period should intervene without such healing measures as would relieve the agricultural pressure, he should feel it his duty to move, if no other noble Lord did, for a committee, not such as that now moved for, but one which would go into the whole cause of the agricultural distress, because he felt that such inquiry was absolutely necessary. He thought the ills of many years of mismanagement might be easily removed, if they could come at the real cause of those ills.
The Earl of Darnleysaid, he would not have obtruded himself on their Lordships at that hour, if an attack had not been made upon him. He must say, he never had denied the existence of distress. He had only said, that the distress was greatly exaggerated, and that that exaggeration had tended greatly to produce much of the present excitement in the

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country. He could adduce many instances of this in his own county, where, by the prompt aid of his tenants, the attempts to produce some of those rural insurrections had been speedily checked. After stating that the Magistrates in his part of the country had been extremely active and diligent, he concluded by expressing his great satisfaction at the circular issued by Government to the Magistrates of the country.
Lord Stourtonsaid, had I risen earlier in the debate, I should have entered more fully into the subject before your Lordships. But there is one fact, which I must advert to. It was said, that the condition of the manufacturers had only improved since the late troubles in France. I can state, for the satisfaction of the House, that the improvement in our manufactures commenced in the early part of the Spring, and has rather suffered, in consequence of those troubles; which, for a time, has given some check to commercial credit and confidence. I think that the depression of the agricultural interest is not of to-day, or of yesterday; but, that it is hardly possible to put one's finger upon a time, since the last war, when it was prosperous, unless in a period of general excitement such as 1824, when the extraordinary amount of capital expended produced everywhere a feverish and short-lived prosperity. With respect to machinery, I must say, that so far from its being injurious to the country, I think that it is principally owing to machinery being more applicable to manufactures, than to agriculture, that the manufacturers are better able to employ their men, and to meet foreign competition, notwithstanding the heavy incumbrances of the country,—incumbrances which I could undertake to prove, from several distinct and powerful causes, are at this moment heavier, notwithstanding every reduction in taxation, than during the last years of the war. Nor is it very practicable to draw a line, and to say what is new machinery, and what is not: for example, the wheel-barrow, that seems of such easy contrivance as might make it appear of very old date, may be called machinery of the middle ages; having been the invention, as I have been assured, of Pascal, during the reign of Lewis 14th. I have risen also to suggest to Ministers the necessity, if we continue to support a golden currency, of paying the utmost
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possible attention to the well-being of those Mexican, and other American mines, in the working of which, during the bubble year, so many millions of British capital were expended: and which, amidst all the mad speculations of that gambling period, may have been an exception, as having been expended for the ultimate benefit of the country. For, as the real value of gold and silver, like the value of any other marketable commodity, depends upon the common laws of demand and supply, our real Bank Restriction Act of 1826, which requires such masses of gold to carry it into effect, tends, both here and everywhere else, to increase the real value of gold and silver in the market. Just as the Bank Restriction Act of 1797— which was in reality a Bank-protection Act—tended to lower the real value of gold; for deception was the great character of the Restriction Act of 1797, which, in effect, protected the Bank against demands for gold. I offer this suggestion, because it is most important, now that the demand for gold has so much increased, not only here, but in other countries, that the supply from the mines should be abundant. My motive last year, for refusing my acquiescence in the committee demanded by the noble Duke, who, I am glad to see tendering the aid of his powerful and vigorous mind to the Administration of the country in this critical and trying period, was this: that I thought it was intended to imply some reproach to the noble Duke at the head of his Majesty's Government—whom I considered then (and the. events of these times, have only strengthened that conviction) as the "bis Salvator Patriœ" by his Relief Bill of 1829. I thought, too, that the reproach was most unseasonable at the moment, when he had just taken off 4,000,000 l. of taxes, bearing almost exclusively on the labouring classes. For, if the noble Duke had abandoned influence, and surrendered patronage, it was to give his relief bill, for so I understood the Beer bill, to those classes, thereby to afford them a cheaper and more wholesome beverage; and to wipe off at the same time a blot from our Fiscal Statute Book, for so I have always considered the Beer-tax, being a partial and therefore unjust tax, affecting the labouring, more than any other class of society. I also disliked a committee, from its dilatory process, as well as from other considerations: and I

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was more particularly influenced in refusing my assent to it, by the knowledge that the Premier had just assented to a committee in the Lower House, to inquire into the state of the poor in Ireland, which I regarded as likely to offer the most effectual means of probing the real evil to the bottom,—an evil which will be found mainly to consist, as stated on a former night, in the surplus labour produced by the unemployed poor, and cheap labour of Ireland. Upon some similar grounds, and as embracing a still wider field of inquiry. I dissent from the present Motion.
Lord Wynfordreplied. He had been represented by the noble Lord (King) as having spoken against the Press, but he had done no such thing; what he said was, that he regretted that so powerful an instrument as the public Press, which he admitted was now very ably conducted, should occasionally give currency to opinions which he considered as very injurious. But when he expressed that opinion, he made no attack on the Press, any more than he made an attack on any of their Lordships when he combatted their opinions. He should be very sorry that any such statement should go uncontradicted. He wished also to reply to the statement of the noble Duke, for whom he had a very high respect (Richmond), who had inquired why he had not been present at his motion for a committee last year, that he was then attending the administration of justice in the House, and had not strength to attend twice a day. It was asserted by the noble Duke, that the inquiry now proposed was so extensive as to reach far beyond the bounds within which it would be possible to bring it to a conclusion. He begged leave to say, if that were the case, it was in the power of noble Lords to narrow it; and it might be limited, as had been suggested, to an inquiry into the causes of the distress of agriculture, to which he verily believed all other distress might be attributed. Unless noble Lords said all inquiries were unnecessary, and it was generally admitted that some inquiry was demanded, they ought either to consent to his Motion, limiting it to suit their views, or they ought to shew that no inquiry whatever was necessary. He had felt it his duty to make the Motion, in order to bring the subject under the public view. The noble Earl (Grey) said, that he had brought forward a novel scheme, and proposed to inquire into the abuse of ma-
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chinery. But if that were a novel scheme of inquiry, the merit of originating it did not belong to him. In the last Session of Parliament, the noble Duke then at the head of the Government stated, that the effects of machinery were fit and proper subjects for inquiry. In the Speech from the Throne an inquiry was recommended, and it was stated, that an inquiry into the effect of the use of steam-engines and of machinery, in throwing the labourer out of employment, was then contemplated by the late Ministers. For his part he had said nothing against the use of machinery, but only against its abuse, and all things, even the most useful, were liable to abuse. He had no wish to restrain invention, no wish to put fetters on the human intellect; but he thought it was a proper subject for inquiry, to ascertain what effect the continual extension of the use of machinery had over the interest of that class whom, above all others, it was their Lordships' duty to protect. He considered that the interest of the labourers should be sacred in their Lordships' eyes. Such an inquiry might show the people their error, and prevent them from pursuing that course which had led to the present disturbances. The noble Earl (Grey) had also accused him of wishing to do a more absurd thing —to regulate anew all family settlements. But with all possible respect to the noble Earl, he had never meant to do anything so absurd. What he said had been borne out by the statement of the noble Earl above him, which was, that they ought not to compel family settlements, made in money of a different value from the present, and when rents were very different from their amount now, to be paid in the present money, when rents were so much reduced; those settlements, he must say, gave opulence to the junior branches of families, while they ruined the elder branches, who had to support all the honours, and perform all the duties of their station. He did not wish to alter those settlements, but he did wish to try if agriculture could not be brought back to something near the style it was when these settlements were made. He was anxious that it should not go abroad that he had proposed anything so absurd as that attributed to him by the noble Earl. In making his Motion, he was not influenced by any wish to place the Ministers in a situation of difficulty. When the Ministers found the country in a state of

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difficulty, he should be most wicked if, from any factious views, or any opposition, he added to their difficulty. He was ready to give the Government all the support in his power, and whoever should now oppose it from factious motives, would be guilty of a crime of no small magnitude. God forbid that he should do that! He had no such wish when he made his Motion. In justice to himself, he must state the circumstances which gave occasion to it. The noble Earl at the head of the Government stated some time back, that Ministers intended to apply themselves to the consideration of the distress. On hearing this, he determined, that before the Ministers were installed into their office, as the noble Earl expressed it, he would not bring forward his Motion, which he had long contemplated. He had waited then till he had an opportunity of asking the noble Earl, whether he intended to do anything, for what the noble Earl had said would produce a temporary good effect, but that would soon wear off if nothing further were done; and understanding that the noble Earl intended to do nothing, he then gave notice of his Motion for a distant day, saying, that he hoped the Government, or some more influential Peer, would feel it his duty to bring the subject forward, and save him the trouble. The noble Earl wished him to withdraw his Motion before giving any reason for it. To that he could not consent; and if nothing more had been said, he would have divided the House on the question, though he should have gone below the bar himself. He was convinced, indeed, that if the Ministers did not undertake the inquiry, inquiry would be forced on them at some future, and no distant day. It would be necessary, he believed, to go into an inquiry, in order to secure the peace of the country. He was persuaded, indeed, that the strong arm of the law, firmly wielded, as he was sure it would be by the noble Lord, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and assisted as he would be by the magistracy of the country, would be sufficient to put an end to the tumults which at present disgraced and troubled us; but if the cause of those tumults was not removed — though God forbid that he should say anything to palsy the arm of the law— but if the cause was not removed, vain, very vain would it be to cut off a few offenders, whose offences, he granted, were
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great, but vain would it be to cut off those offenders, if no measures were taken to remedy the distress. The noble Earl had, in the course of the debate, stated, that it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to consider the subject, and he knew that it could not be in better hands. He confided in them. As the noble Earl had stated that, he should, with the permission of their Lordships, withdraw his Motion.
Earl Greystated, that the noble Lord must surely remember that he had stated, as soon as he had been appointed to Office, that his Majesty's Government would apply themselves to consider the state of the country. The first opportunity he had had, he had stated that his Majesty's Ministers would do so, and that he considered it not less their interest than their duty. Did the noble Lord think that they were so negligent or so ignorant of their duty, as not to know that their first attention ought to be directed to the most serious evils that ever a Ministry had to encounter?
Lord Wynfordagreed that the noble Earl had made that explanation.
The Earl of Rosslynwished, in the absence of the noble Duke lately at the head of the Administration, to correct a misrepresentation of the noble Lord with regard to what had fallen from that noble Duke in a former Session of Parliament. He did not wish it to go forth to the public that the noble Duke, then at the head of his Majesty's Government, had said, that he was satisfied that machinery was productive of mischief, and tended to impoverish the people. He was sure that the noble Duke never said any such thing, or anything like it. He was sure that his Majesty's Ministers were not of opinion that machinery was the cause of distress, or produced any want of employment.
Lord Wynfordwished it to be understood, that he had not intentionally misrepresented any man, but certainly he had understood the noble Duke to say, that the influence of machinery, in depriving the manual labourer of employment, was a subject worthy of being inquired into, and was a subject beyond the control of the Legislature.
The Duke of Richmondwished to correct another misstatement of the noble Lord. He had said, that a noble Earl, not then in his place (Roseberry) had attributed all the disturbance to the educa-

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tion of the people. Nobody said so— nobody would dare to say so. What the noble Earl said, was, he believed—that it was more imperative on their Lordships than ever, to show some sympathy for the distresses of the people, for their better education made them more alive than formerly to sympathy or to neglect.
The Motion negatived without a division.