Sitting of 30 April 1830

MINUTES.
Returns presented. The number of Meetings under Commissions of Bankruptey.
Petitions presented. In favour of the Sale of Beer Bill, by Mr. DENISON, from the Retail Brewers of Surrey. Against that Bill, by Mr. BRAMSTON, from the Licensed Victuallers of Dunmow:—By Mr. EGERTON, from the Licensed Victuallers of Northwich:—By Sir K. KNATCHBULL, from Ashford, Milton, and Hamsgate:—And by Mr. BELL., from the Brewers and Publicans of Shields. Against the Punishment of Death for Forgery, by Mr. BRAMSTON, from the Inhabitants of Saffron Walden; and the Magistrates, Clergy, and Inhabitants of Braintree and Bocking:—And by Lord GRANVILLLE SOMERSET, from Newport, Monmouthshire. Against levying a higher rate of Duty on Hum than on Corn Spirits, by the Marquis of CHANDOS, from the West-India Merchants and Planters. Against levying a higher Duty on Corn Spirits, by Sir E. KNATCHBULL., from the Farmers frequenting Bristol Corn Market. For an increased Duty on Foreign Flour, by Mr. BRAMSTON, from a number of individuals engaged in the Manufacture of Flour in Essex. And for an increased Duty on Foreign Lead, by Mr. BELL, from the Mining Districts of Derwent.

SCOTCH JUDICATURE.
Sir M.S. Stewartpresented a Petition from the Writers and Conveyancers of the Towns of Greenock and Port Glasgow, and Practitioners before the Sheriff Court of Renfrewshire, to which he requested the particular attention of the Lord-Advocate; for he was confident, if the learned Lord gave it his attention, he must also give his consent to the just and equitable prayer of the petitioners. The

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hon. Member stated the scope and object of the petition. Among other things, he said, the petition declared, that the expense of business before the Courts of Edinburgh is very great; but that the expense of the Court of Session is greatest of all; that the High Court of Admiralty, besides its primary jurisdiction in maritime cases, is cumulative with the Court of Session in mercantile questions, and that suitors prefer it, from the comparative cheapness of its administration; but still the petitioners are convinced that the Admiralty Court may, with great public advantage, be abolished, as proposed by the Lord-Advocate's bill, if its jurisdiction be transferred to the Sheriff Courts. The petitioners earnestly pray that the competency of the Sheriff Court, in Admiralty business, may not be limited to cases below 25 l.; and they state that such a restriction would be very detrimental to Scotland, and particularly to sailors and ship-masters, in whose interests the procurators of Greenock and Port Glasgow must unquestionably be peculiarly conversant. He (Sir M. Stewart) would strongly urge upon the attention of the House, and of the Lord-Advocate, the great public advantage of conferring the full jurisdiction of the Admiralty Courts on those most efficacious and comparatively cheap tribunals, the Sheriff Courts of Scotland (which had been so ably and so justly characterized by his learned friend, the member for Knaresborough, in his powerful and comprehensive statement last night), making such jurisdiction alternative with the Court of Session in all cases above 25 l., and restrictive to the Sheriff Courts in cases under that sum. For proof of the great practical efficiency of the Sheriff Courts, he would only refer the House and the learned Lord (and no one was better acquainted with the constitution of these Courts) to one of his own returns, from which it appeared, that out of 66,232 causes decided in the Sheriff Courts in Scotland in three years, only 564 were carried by review to the Supreme Court. The petitioners also prayed that all inferior Admiralty jurisdictions should be abolished, and merged in the Sheriff, and in particular that the House would interfere to abrogate the authority of the Water Baillie of Glasgow, the existence of whose authority they stated to be a serious grievance to persons residing in Renfrewshire. In conclusion, the petitioners declared that there was much to amend in the judicial system of Scotland, and if permitted they would demonstrate the expediency of
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introducing jury trial in civil cases, before the sheriff, parties being always allowed the option of a trial by jury, or by the judge alone; and they stated that they were ready further to demonstrate the expediency of empowering the sheriff to enforce his own decrees by imprisonment, without the heavy expense of Signet-letters of horning and caption; and that the sheriff should have the power of awarding sequestration of the smaller class of bankrupt estates, and of determining cases of cessio bonorum; they prayed this House to take these matters into consideration, in which prayer he joined, and he called on his learned friend (the Lord-Advocate) if possible to give them speedy effect. Seeing his hon. friend, the member for Ayr, in his place, he could not help expressing an anxious hope that he would, without delay, renew his useful and much-required bill for the transfer of heritable bonds by simple endorsation, by which he would confer very great benefit upon Scotland at large. He also trusted, that his hon. friend, the member for Stirlingshire, would turn his great practical knowledge and acute mind to the truly important subject of seisins, with a view to their complete revision and reform; and that he would extend still further the powers of that most valuable statute, the Small Debt Act, for which he would deserve and receive the gratitude of his country; and he hoped his vigilant friends, the members for Westbury and Aberdeen, would keep their chastening hands on that master grievance the Fee-fund, until it was altogether suppressed; or at least compressed into much more moderate dimensions. He begged to take this opportunity of saying, that the observations that he made on a former evening, as to the high rate of writers' charges, applied to the charges on conveyancing, and especially the ad valorem charges, which ought to be done away with altogether. As to the charges for court business, he presumed to give no opinion; but from the difference of opinion that he understood existed at present among the learned bodies on the subject, as well as from the nature of the subject itself, he thought that, in justice to the Lords of Session, to the learned bodies themselves, and especially to the public, one of two courses should be adopted by Parliament,—either that a parliamentary commission should be forthwith appointed for the regulation and publication of the whole of these charges, or that they should be left altogether without any regulation, and

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quite open to free competition. He moved that the petition be brought up.
Mr. Maxwellsaid, that when this Petition was disposed of, he had two petitions of a similar nature to present. He took that opportunity of informing the learned Lord, that there was little or no hostility felt in Scotland to the improvements which he had recently proposed to make in Scotch-law, and of declaring that he was most desirous to render justice more easy and accessible to his fellow-subjects in that part of the United Empire. With this view he would suggest that the present system of appeal should be done away, and that instead of parties having to come to London, as at present, the final appeal should be to a court established in Scotland, like the twelve Judges in England.
The Lord Advocatewas happy to hear that no hostility was entertained in Scotland to his bill, as he must confess that he had been apprehensive of a different result. The measure which he had recently proposed to the consideration of Parliament was quite as large as any measure which had ever been hitherto proposed for the reformation of Scotch law. He wished the House to deal with his measure on its own merits in the first instance, and afterwards to take into consideration the other suggestions which had been made to it, adopting them where they were useful, and rejecting them when they were shown by argument to be likely to prove detrimental.
Mr. Kennedysaid, that if the bill for the transference of heritable securities, which he had brought into Parliament in the year 1823, had been passed at that time, it would have proved highly beneficial to the people of Scotland, and he had no doubt that it would prove equally beneficial to them if it were passed at present. As he had been so pointedly called upon by his hon. friend, he would now declare, that if he thought that it would be agreeable to the House and to the country, he would introduce that same bill again into Parliament during the continuance of the present Session.
Mr. H. Drummondsaid, that he had found such difficulty in dealing with the amount of compensations which it would be necessary to make on passing his bill for the better regulation of seisins, that he must decline bringing it again under the notice of Parliament. He believed that it would be a most useful measure: but it was in vain for any individual to hope to carry it, unless the matter was taken up with the cordial consent of Government.
Mr. Humehoped that, the hon. Member would not be deterred by the difficulty which he had mentioned, from proceeding with his very useful and necessary measure. It was a shame to let the extravagant claims of public servants stand thus in the way of great and important public benefits. If the hon. Member would undertake the management of such a measure, he would have more time than the members of Government to superintend its progress, and to bring it to a successful termination.
Petition to be printed.

CONSCIENTIOUS SCRUPLES OF THE MILITARY.
Sir R. Inglispresented a Petition from certain Clergymen of the Established Church, who were formerly officers in the Army, praying that the House would take measures to prevent the compulsory attendance of Protestant soldiers at the religious ceremonies of persons of a different persuasion. The hon. Member observed that a few years ago, Roman Catholic soldiers were relieved from the necessity of attending Protestant worship, and he only asked that the same privilege should be extended to Protestant soldiers. Adverting to the case of Captains Aitchison and Dawson, who were tried by a Court Martial at Malta six years before, because they refused to take part in a religious ceremony, the hon. Baronet inquired if at present there was any disposition to review that case, in, a manner favourable to these officers. "He wished that there should be no contest between a man's duty to his God and a soldier's duty to his commander." That principle was, however, sometimes violated, and soldiers who were of the Church of England were compelled to attend on the ceremonies of Catholics. When our troops were last in Portugal, for example, an officer in a small town ordered two officers and sixty men, with the band of the regiment, to parade round the town for several hours, in honour of some patron saint. The commanding officer, he believed, had no evil intention, but he might have hurt the consciences of his men.
Sir George Murraybegged leave to remind the hon. Baronet, that a few years ago, all the soldiers of the British Army, though they might be Catholics or Presbyterians, were compelled to attend the service of the Church of England. That was no longer the case, but even so late as when he held the command of the army in Ireland, instructions were received,

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originating, as he understood, from the application of the Chaplain General, to prevent a Scotch regiment quartered at Belfast, from attending the service of the Presbyterian Church, of which they were members. On his arrival in Ireland, the first question of his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant was, "What is the meaning of all this, we shall have the whole North of Ireland, in a flame." That shewed that up to a later period, than the hon. Baronet supposed, it had been customary to insist on the attendance of all soldiers at the English Church. That, however, was not so much the subject before the House as the practice of the British Army, in places where the religion of the country was different from the established religion of England. To show what that was, he would, with the permission of the House, refer to some General Orders, which had been issued on the subject. The first which he would quote was issued at Cadiz, on April 1st, 1810, by Lord Lynedoch, and it directed that "the greatest respect is on all occasions to be paid to the religion of the country." The second was dated on the 80th of the same month; in that Lord Lynedoch says, "the Lieutenant-general flattered himself, that he would have only to express his satisfaction to all ranks for that attention to discipline, and that regard for the religious customs and the prejudices, even of the inhabitants, which ought never to be forgotten by his Majesty's troops. It is therefore with great regret that he has lately received various reports of disorderly conduct, and in particular of the want of respect for religious processions." He would then refer to an order issued at Alexandria, or rather from the heights to the westward of Alexandria, and consequently in a country where the Mahomedan religion prevailed, on March 18, 1807 The order was as follows, "Major-general Fraser points out to the troops, the necessity as well as the propriety of having the utmost respect paid to the customs, manners, and religious ceremonies, of this country. Officers are themselves enjoined to abstain from any act that can, in the smallest degree, tend to give offence, and they will on every occasion impress on the minds of the soldiers, that their own individual safety, the honour and success of the army, may be materially affected by their conduct in this particular." The following order was issued by the Duke of Wellington when he was in Portugal.
"Mondego Bay, July 31, 1808.
"It is also most essential to the success of the Army, that the religious prejudices and opinions of the people of the country should be respected, and with this view the General desires:—1st. No officer or soldier belonging to the Army is to go to any place of religious worship, during the performance of divine service in such place, excepting with the permission of the officer commanding his regiment, and the general officer commanding the brigade to which he belongs:—2nd. When an officer or a soldier shall visit a church or any other place of worship, from motives of curiosity at periods when divine service is not performed, he is to remain uncovered while at church:—3rd. When the Host passes in the street, officers or soldiers not on duty are to halt and front it, the officers to pull off their hats, and the soldiers to put their hands to their caps; when it shall pass a guard, the guard will turn out and present arms; when a sentry, the sentry must present arms."
In compliance with that order he had frequently taken off his hat himself, and he was quite convinced that our army would not have triumphed, though it was contending for national independence and individual liberty, had that respect not been paid to the religious feelings of the allies who were united with us in that great contest. Our soldiers were always enjoined to show the utmost respect to the religious rites of other sects, but he knew of no instance in which they had been compelled to take part in their ceremonies. At Malta all the military duties connected with religious ceremonies were performed by the Maltese Fencibles. The only exception to this practice was on the occasion of the demise of the last Pope, when some British soldiers assisted at the ceremonies, but they were exclusively Catholics. With respect to the officers alluded to, he could hold out no hope that the sentence of the Court Martial by which they had been punished, and which had received his Majesty's sanction would be reviewed or the punishment remitted. He stated that with the more confidence, because he held in his hand, at that moment a letter of his late Royal Highness the Duke of York, in reference to that very case, in which the distinction was drawn, in the strongest and clearest manner, between the attendance of a soldier, in obedience to orders, as a part of his military duty, and his attendance upon a religious service.
Sir E. Knatchbullsaid, he understood

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that Protestant soldiers had been compelled to assist at the ceremonies of the Roman Catholic religion in foreign countries. If he understood the right hon. Baronet correctly, it appeared that every commander might compel his troops to take part in a religious ceremony, from which they were averse, and which was contrary to their creed. That was, indeed, the very case of the officers whose unfortunate fate had been alluded to, all of whose prospects in life had been blasted because they would not attend a religious procession, when they could not have done so without violating their own feelings of religion. His hon. friend did not expect that the sentence of the Court Martial would be revised, but he submitted the case for these officers to the consideration of his Majestys Ministers in the hope—a hope which many other Members entertained—that some favour might be shewn to them.
Mr. O'Connellthought the prayer of the Petition a very reasonable one. Protestant soldiers ought not to have violence done to their consciences by being compelled to assist at the ceremonies of another religion. The Protestants had been called on by the law to swear that a ceremony was idolatrous, and they were compelled by the same law, to fire salutes and do homage in honour of that very ceremony. Men would not be the worse soldiers for being good Christians, and therefore he should recommend the Petition to the consideration of the Government.
Mr. Trantalso supported the prayer of the Petition. There was throughout the army he said, a strong feeling on the subject to which the Petition referred, which the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman would by no means satisfy. A clergyman of the Church of England had lately informed him, that he had seen our soldiers, in the island of Corfu, obliged to hold randies in their hands in honour of the Holy Ghost. As his hon. friend had made no impression on the right hon. Baronet, he would, he hoped, prosecute the matter in some other manner. It was proper he thought, for our troops to respect all religions, but that was very different from taking an active part in their ceremonies. At present British officers were obliged to pay respect and homage to a religion which they thought erroneous, and that was a footing on which, in his opinion, such matters ought not to be placed. He regretted, that the recommendation of the governor of Malta, in regard to having all
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the salutes in honour of religion fired by persons specially engaged for that purpose, had not been attended to.
Sir George Murraysaid, that carrying candles was quite optional; people going along put candles into the hands of those men near them, but they might carry them or not as they pleased. The only instance of an attempt at compulsion, of which he had heard for a long time, was that of the Scotch regiment in Ireland to which he had alluded.
Petition laid on the Table.
Sir Robert Inglis, in moving that it be printed, stated, that he did not wish the religion of any man to be treated with disrespect, but he must, on that very principle, contend that it was wrong to compel our conscientious soldiers to pay homage to religious ceremonies which they disapproved of. He saw nothing in the Orders quoted by the gallant officer to complain of, but he disapproved of our men being obliged to pay more than negative respect to the religious observances of other countries. He did not ask for the revision of the sentence of a Court Martial, but that the officers he had alluded to might, by his Majesty's bounty, be restored to the service. He did not think this too much to ask, because the orders of the Marquis of Hastings, abolishing the practice for not complying with which these officers were punished, was a condemnation of that practice and particularly because their offence was considered to be so slight, that they continued in the discharge of their ordinary duties more than six months after the offence was committed till orders went, out from England to try them by a Court Martial. All that he wished was, that the conscience of the Protestant officer and soldier should be as much protected as the conscience of the professor of a different religion; and that no man, whether he were of the Greek, the Catholic, or the Protestant Church, should be compelled to join in any worship of which his conscience disapproved. If an English regiment were ordered to go to a Roman Catholic Cathedral, and there salute the Host on its elevation, and if any of the officers or men were to be punished for not obeying, that would, in his opinion, be as much compulsion as if they were driven into the Cathedral at the point of the bayonet. The principle involved in this case, therefore, was one of the highest importance, and he could not but say that he had heard with great satisfaction the sentiments which

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the hon. member for Clare had expressed in supporting the Petition.
Mr. Maxwellsaid, that the officers alluded to, had fallen a sacrifice to the prejudices of the Government; and that if the hon. member for Oxford would bring forward a motion for granting them compensation, he would-cordially support it. He knew that, many persons would consider the obligation of soldiers to attend any religious ceremonies but those of their own church as very wrong, and that it would debar them from sending their children into the army.
Petition to be printed.

MACHINERY.
Sir E. Knalchbullpresented a Petition from the Journeyman Paper-makers of the county of Kent, against the excessive use of Machinery in the manufacture of Paper.
Mr. Wellssupported the prayer of the Petition; because, he thought the distress of the petitioners arose from the excessive use of machinery, and what was called Free Trade.
Mr. Humesaid, he had been requested, by a deputation from the petitioners, who had favoured him with a copy of their Petition, to support its prayer, but he had declined to do so, because he was certain that a compliance with their wishes would add to, instead of diminishing, the general distress. The petitioners could only hope for more employment, by being able to manufacture Paper at a cheaper rate than other people, and they could only do that by employing Machinery. What kept up the price of their produce and kept down their wages was taxation. He had therefore advised these people to petition for a repeal of the tax on Paper, and for the abolition of the Corn-laws. Had these two remedies been applied, their disease would soon be cured. He would not then undertake to shew that the member for Maidstone was in error, he would merely observe, that to renew the restrictions on our trade, or to extend them, would augment the distress of the country tenfold. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer wished, as he believed he did, to alleviate the burthens of the people, he would suspend the vexatious interference of the Excise, which, without adding to the revenue of the State, did most severely aggravate the miseries of the people. If he would abstain from interfering with the mode of manufacturing various commodities, employment would be so much increased that he might levy a greater revenue than
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now, at less expense. Why should not England supply the world with Paper as well as Calico? We had every requisite for so doing except freedom. The manufacture of Paper was subjected to the Excise, and that prevented its success. Was it surprising that the nation could not run along in the career of prosperity, when its hands and feet were in fetters? English Paper was, in point of durability, the best he had ever seen, and he knew no reason but our own restrictions, why it was not extensively exported to all parts of the world. He regretted that the petitioners should be ignorant on this subject; and that they should have prayed the House for that, which if granted, would only tend to their own destruction.
Petition to be printed.

BEER-TRADE.
Sir E. Knatchbullin presenting a petition from Mr. James Best, common-brewer, of the county of Kent, against throwing open the trade in Beer, observed, that he hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would abandon that measure, and in lieu of it repeal the duty on Malt. The publicans and other parties now engaged in the Beer-trade, would suffer very great hardship by the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposed measure. They had embarked large sums of money in their business, which would be deteriorated or entirely destroyed by the Bill under consideration. The measure had excited much disapprobation throughout the country, and he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not persevere in it.
Mr. Benettsaid, he agreed with the hon. member for Kent, and was of opinion, that the measure would inflict a serious injury on the publicans and common-brewers. He must therefore beg leave to unite his voice to that of the hon. Baronet, and request the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give up his Bill. He could also inform the right hon. Gentleman, that he was not more lucky with Spirits than with Beer, and his measure for augmenting the duty on Corn Spirits had given universal dissatisfaction to the distillers.

PRIVY COUNCIL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he hoped the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham) would not press his motion for an account of all salaries and emoluments received by the Members of his Majesty's Privy Council, on going into the Committee of Supply. All the information which the hon. Baronet

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demanded would be laid before the House in the course of a fortnight, in consequence of the motion which had been made by the hon. member for Lincolnshire.
Sir J. Grahamsaid, he was anxious to have an opportunity of stating his view with respect to the question of superannuations, of full military pay enjoyed by officers having civil allowance, and on another point of great importance—he alluded to sinecures being held by individuals, who otherwise received large allowances. If, however, the returns alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman were satisfactory, it would not be necessary for him to proceed with his motion, but if they were not so, he certainly would persevere, and under that feeling he consented to postpone his motion until the eleventh of May.
Mr. Humesaid, he was unfortunately absent when the right hon. Gentleman moved for the appointment of a committee to inquire into the existing superannuations. If he had been present, he would have opposed such a mockery. It appeared to him, that since the dissolution of the Finance Committee, Ministers had done every thing to prevent proper inquiry. In the formation of this new committee, an hon. Baronet (Sir Henry Parnell) the ablest man, he would say, that ever sat on any committee, had been most unaccountably excluded.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the hon. Baronet referred to, had been inadvertently, and not intentionally, excluded; for his own part, he had no objection that the hon. Baronet should be placed on the committee.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.—ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
Mr. Perceval Mr. Perceval moved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee to consider further of the Supply to be granted to his Majesty. On the Motion of the same hon. Gentleman, the Ordnance Estimates were ordered to be referred to the said Committee.
In the Committee, Mr. Perceval moved, that a sum not exceeding 82,046 l. be granted to defray the expenses of the corps of Royal Sappers and Miners, &c., for the year 1830.
Mr. Humeobjected to the grant, and stated that the force was too great. In 1792 there were only fifty officers of Engineers, while at present there were 250. The number of Engineer officers was greater now than in 1802, although at that time Bonaparte wielded the power of France, and
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nearly all Europe was arrayed against us, and even then the number was three times as great as in the peace of 1792. The expense had been increased from 05,000/. in 1792 to 83,000 l. at present; the number of officers had been increased from 113 to 250. He thought that both the expense and the number of officers was disproportionately great, and they ought to be materially reduced.
Mr. Percevalsaid, that the hon. Member was mistaken in saying that the Engineer officers were more numerous now than in 1802. The fact was, that if the increase of places where they were required, and the different distribution of their duties were taken into account, their number would be found to be proportionately less than at that period. The number then required for the Colonies was sixty-nine, but at present no more than sixty were employed. The whole establishment of Sappers and Miners was under the command of Engineer officers, and these, together with the number employed upon surveys and in the Irish districts, and those required in the barrack department, fully accounted for the apparent increase of the number of this corps. To all these circumstances he might subjoin the number of Colonies added since the time referred to, and when every thing was considered, he was justified in saying, that comparing the different services they now performed, the number was less than at that period. He might also mention, that the Engineer corps must be kept up in time of peace for the instruction of young officers.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that additional taxes were about to be imposed on Ireland, if, indeed, the people did not, in a constitutional manner, so strongly oppose the measure as to prevent the right hon. Gentleman from carrying it into effect. He wished to prevent the necessity of this, by reducing the establishments, for Ireland was, with respect to her power to bear taxation, a very poor country, and really not able to support the burthen of any more direct taxes. If, therefore, the hon. member for Montrose would propose any reduction of the Irish expenditure, he should have his hearty support.
Colonel Trenchdefended the Engineer corps, which, he said, was incessantly employed, and the officers of which supplied the place of jobbing architects and surveyors' clerks, and being paid 2l. 10 d. a day, saved the country many thousand pounds.
Lord Edward Somersetsaid, that this establishment must necessarily be kept up, for if it were destroyed, its re-organization would be extremely difficult, not to say impossible, when circumstances should call for it.
Mr. Humedid not think these men were profitably employed; they only wasted the materials, for their work itself was not wanted. Having the men we were compelled to find them employment. A sum of 389,000 l. had been expended on public works in the space of seven years, and in the next five years it was proposed to spend 535,000 l. more. He thought that we were not in a condition to spend such sums, and therefore they ought not to be granted.
Resolution agreed to.
Mr. Perceval Mr. Perceval moved, that a sum of 83,626 l. be granted to his Majesty for the expense of the Royal Regiment of Artillery, for the Colonies, and for Ireland, the sum of 200,000 l. having already been granted for the same service on a vote of credit.
Mr. Humesaid, that notwithstanding the recommendations of the Finance Committee, that this corps should be reduced—it was now to a man as numerous, and to a pound as expensive, as it was before those recommendations had been made.
Lord E. Somersetdefended the vote, on the ground that the new Colonies required more artillery. The new Driver corps, also did the duties of Artillery men.
Mr. Humedenied, that these things were sufficient to justify this increase of expense in time of peace. By keeping up so large a corps we did but add to the claims on our Pension List. The Lieutenant Commandants were continued, although they could not perform their duty. At least the Government said so, for they insisted on maintaining the office of Lieutenant General of the Ordnance, on the ground that he alone could perform the duty of inspecting the Artillery. Surely both branches of expense were not necessary. He had often been accused of entertaining extravagant ideas, but no ideas he had ever entertained were half so extravagant as those of the Government, who spent the public money without the slightest remorse. He thought the reduction in this department ought to be to the extent of 2,000 men.
Resolution agreed to.
The next Vote proposed by Mr. Perceval was for a grant of 37,111 l. for the expense of the Royal Artillery, including a Rocket Troop, and the charge for a Riding-house.
Mr. Humedefied human ingenuity to point out the real utility of the Rocket Troop in time of peace.
Lord E. Somersetobserved, that the same objection would apply to every other corps. A scientific troop of Rocket-men could not be framed in a day, upon a temporary emergency.
Mr. O'Connellsuggested that the Engineers might soon be converted into Rocket-men. It was admitted that this body of men was of no present use, but it was assumed that the country must bear the expense, as it might be of use at some future period. This sort of proceeding and argument indicated a total absence of sympathy between the extravagant Government and the suffering people.
Lord Howicksaid, that efficient economy was not promoted by these trifling objections. These corps ought to be kept up in peace, that they might be ready in war.
Mr. O'Connelldid not feel lessened by the reproof of the noble Lord any more than he should feel exalted by his praise. The objections to these votes were founded upon a due regard to the interests of the people, who still sent some Members to Parliament, though the noble Lord might not be one of them.
Sir H. Hardingeremarked, that the Rocket Troop consisted of only eighty-six men, who performed all the duties of horse artillery.
Mr. Maberlysaid, that it was almost a farce to submit these votes to the House, if, when the sums were small, objections to them were deemed insignificant, and when they were large, resistance was considered an attack upon the great and important interests of the country. In his opinion all these establishments were too numerous and too expensive.
Mr. Dohertysaid, he thought the hon. member for Aberdeen was the last person who ought to object to the maintenance of a small but effective corps, for the hon. Member himself belonged to a body which made up by activity for its want of strength and numbers.
Vote carried.
Mr. Percevalproposed a Resolution for granting 1,223 l. for the Director General of the Field Train, and for the Field Train Department.
Mr. Humewished to know what were the duties of the Director? and
Mr. Percevalreplied, by reading a description of them from the Report of the

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Finance Committee. He has to inspect the field train, and see that it is complete and perfect. The emoluments of the office were to be reduced on the death of the present holder of the office, who was seventy-five years of age.
Vote carried.
The next Resolution was for 9,127 l. for the expense of the Medical Establishment of the Military Department of the Ordnance.
Mr. Humebegged to know whether the recommendations of the Finance Committee on this subject had been attended to?
Lord E. Somersetanswered in the affirmative.
Mr. Maberlythought that the department might be abolished altogether without injury to the service.
Sir H. Hardingeobserved, that the establishment at Woolwich would be dispensed with by degrees, and as fast as the present members were diminished by the course of nature and other causes.
Resolution carried.
On the question that 3,402 l. be granted for the establishment of the Civil Officers and Masters of the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich,
Mr. Humeinquired how many young men were there educated, and how many had been admitted last year?
Lord Downesreplied, to the first branch of the question 124; and to the last twelve.
Mr. Humewished further to be informed how many of the Cadets were the sons of Artillery Officers?
Lord Downesadded, that twenty were the sons of Artillery Officers, and ten or twelve the sons of Officers of the Line.
Mr. Humecontended that this fact showed that the Military Academy, instead of being applied to the education of the sons of meritorious officers, was made the nursery for favourites who had no claim upon the country, and who were educated at the public expense, like paupers at a charity school.
Sir H. Hardingerepelled this charge, and denied that the young gentlemen ought to be considered in the light of paupers educated by public charity; they were entitled to the bounty they received on devoting themselves to the service of their country. He added, that the promises made by Lord Anglesea and his predecessors were fulfilled by Lord Beresford, so far as the cadets were concerned.
Mr. Maberlythought that the country
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was not called upon to educate the sons of gentlemen for any profession. He confessed that he should be as ready as any hon. Member in that House to agree to a vote for educating young gentlemen for the army, if a sufficient case were made out.
Sir H. Hardingesaid, he was not understood in what he had said. In 1829 there were thirty-two cadets admitted, eighteen of whom were sons of officers, and in 1828, out of twenty-four cadets, eleven were sons of officers. He conceived that a system which cost the country only 3,300 l. ought not to be objected to, when so much good was derived from it as had proceeded from the Academy at Woolwich.
Mr. Humecalled the attention of the Committee to the fact, that medical men entering the army were not educated at the public expense, and their education was as expensive as that of any other officer in the army, belonging to any branch of the service. What he wished to see was this—that young men should be educated at their own expense, or that of their friends, up to a certain point, and that such scientific education as the service required might be imparted to them at the public expense. Let the public, by all means, give them the scientific information they might require as artillerymen; but he must say, so long as they remained pensioners of the State, by putting it to unnecessary expense for their education, he could not but call them paupers—he called all persons paupers who took the money of the State without giving value for it. Those might not be very courtly terms, but his sense of truth and justice compelled him to use them—there was no Lord nor Lady who had an undeserved and unnecessary pension who was not a pauper. What had the public to do with the education of the Army? There was no education that he knew of requisite for the Army. The general feeling was, that when a young man was fit for nothing else, he ought to be put into the Army or into the Church.
Sir Henry Hardingewould affirm, that the hon. Member was most unfairly stigmatising those young men. They were just entering into life, and he was calling them paupers without the slightest foundation. Having now treated that observation with the contempt it deserved, he should proceed—
Mr. Humerose to order. The language of the gallant Officer opposite was altogether unbecoming his situation.
Lord Millondid not hear the term contempt applied to his hon. friend the member for Aberdeen, or to any other Gentleman; it was perfectly competent to any Member to speak contemptuously of any remark made: the contempt had nothing personal in it.
Sir Henry Hardingehad never meant to attach any tiling personal to his observations. He merely desired that it should go forth to the public that he felt contempt for the stigma which had been cast, or rather attempted to be cast, upon those young gentlemen. He had no intention of offering any offence to the hon. member for Aberdeen, who, throughout the whole of the discussions relating to those Estimates, canvassed them with so much good humour, that nothing could be farther from his wish than to treat the remarks of the hon. Member with any undue severity. The gallant Officer then proceeded to say, that what the hon. member for Aberdeen had said respecting the education of medical men was not of much weight, for their education could not fail of being serviceable to them out of the army; whereas that of artillery officers could be of no value to them except in that service. If they wished to keep the corps of Artillery, they had better look to the preservation of the Academy of Woolwich.
Lord Howickconcurred in much of what had fallen from the hon. member for Aberdeen. He thought that in this case the public ought to provide the means of education, and that the individuals profiting by it ought to pay for the advantages so afforded to them.
Mr. R. Gordondefended himself and his friends from the accusation of offering indiscriminate opposition to the votes proposed for the public service. Such accusations were exceedingly improper and undeserved. The first and highest duty of the representatives of the people was scrupulously to watch the expenditure of the public money. He wished to know why the Academy at Woolwich could not be placed upon the same footing as the Military College. The students there paid not only more than was necessary, but enough to defray the charges of all the gratuitous education connected with the establishment The hon. member for Aberdeen had said that none but those who were fit for nothing else went into the army; that was, he conceived, quite a mistake: every prudent man in these times would send his son into the army—it was the high road to promotion:
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to belong to the military profession, was at present the sure mode of securing political advancement. How long this military system—this barrack administration—night last, he would not take upon himself to say; but now the cleverest member of each family would, as a matter of course, be sent into the army. He wished to know from the gallant Officer opposite, why the sons of civilians should not pay at Woolwich as well as at the Military College?
Sir Henry Hardingesaid, that the fact of young gentlemen being educated at Woolwich, fixed upon them a prohibition, or rather excluded them from serving his Majesty in any other capacity than as artillery officers. Placing them under that disability he thought was enough, without adding to it a charge for an education useless for any other purpose of life.
Mr. R. Gordonprofessed that this explanation was any thing but satisfactory.
Mr. Warburtonthought, that if the gratuitous education were removed, there would be no necessity for restricting those persons to one branch of the service.
Lord Downessaid, the expense of this stablishment had been greatly reduced since 1821.
Lord Althorpsaid, that though our artillery might be excellent, he believed it would be admitted that our Navy was as good as any in Europe, yet our College at Portsmouth paid its own expenses.
Mr. Baringcontended, that it would be no hardship to oblige those young men to pay for themselves.
Mr. Humecontended, that the expense of this establishment was not merely 3,000 l. the amount of the present vote. The whole expense of living, servants, and other items, exceeded 11,000 l. a year. He really saw no reason why a bounty should be paid to young men to induce them to enter the Artillery: when a scarcity existed it would be time enough to talk of bounties.
Sir J. Wrottesleyadvocated the principle of permitting parents to educate their children for the service at their own expense, and therefore opposed the present vote.
Mr. Humeobjected to the impropriety of having employed the pay appropriated for sixty lieutenants to the support of sixty-four additional cadets.
Mr. Maberlysaid, that the accounts on this subject required explanation, and the vote must be postponed until the accounts were amended.
Mr. Humesaid, there was no question but that the vote must be postponed.
Mr. Perceval, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Sir H. Hardinge declared, that a saving had taken place, and that the application of the money was justified by his Majesty's warrant
Mr. Hume, Mr. Maberly, and others, denied that his Majesty's warrant could override the Act of Parliament, which expressly pointed out the application of it.
A division took place, when there appeared—For the Resolution 131; Against it 59: Majority 72.

List of the Minority.

Althorp, Lord

Lester, B.

Bankes, H.

Maberly, J.

Baring, F.

Morpeth, Lord

Bentinck, Lord G.

Marshall, W.

Benett, J.

Marjoribanks, S.

Buck, L. W.

Martin, J.

Carter, J. B.

Mostyn, Sir T.

Cave, O.

Milton, Viscount

Cavendish, W.

Monck, J. B.

Clements, Lord

O'Connell, D.

Dawson, A.

Power, R.

Davies, Colonel

Philips, G. R.

Dickinson, W.

Poyntz, W. S.

Du Cane, P.

Ponsonby, Hon. G.

Ebrington, Viscount

Robinson, G. R.

Encomb, Viscount

Robinson, Sir G.

Euston, Earl of

Rickford, W.

Fortescue, Hon. G.

Ridley, Sir M. W.

Graham, Sir J.

Sibthorp, Col.

Grattan, H.

Slaney, It.

Gordon, R.

Sykes, D.

Guest, J. H.

Strutt, Colonel

Honywood, W. P.

Taylor, M. A.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Thomson, P.

Howard, H.

Warburton, H.

Howick, Lord

Webb, Colonel

Kennedy, F.

Wilbraham, G.

Knatchbull, Sir E.

Wood, Alderman

Labouchere, H.

Wood,.J.

Lambert, J. S.

TELLER.

Langston, J. H.

Hume, J.

The next Resolution was for the sum of 587,108/. for defraying the Extraordinaries of the Office of Ordnance for the year 1830, after a deduction of 167,547 l. for the sale of old stores.
Mr. Maberly, Mr. Hume, and Mr. R. Gordonopposed taking the votes in this shape, and contended that it should be taken in five separate items; while the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir H. Hardinge, and Mr. Perceval, maintained, that this was the most convenient mode for taking it; and after a longcon versation upon that point, the Chancellor of the Exchequer consented to withdraw the vote, and so to shape it as to meet the views of the hon. Members opposite.
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On the suggestion of Sir H. Hardinge, the Committee proceeded to the next Resolution, which was for the sum of 4,034 l. to defray the expenses of services performed for the Office of Ordnance, and which had not been provided for by Parliament, for 1830. On the question being put on this Resolution,
Lord Miltonsaid, he rose to state the objections which he entertained to these Estimates generally. He was desirous to take this opportunity to enter his protest against the whole military system of this country. If he had not long entertained such a sentiment, the remarks which he had heard that evening from the military bench opposite, would induce him to adopt it. A gallant Officer opposite had said, that having been in Paris in 1814, he saw the deficiency of the Artillery there compared with ours, and he asked, would we now break down such a superior establishment? The fact was, that his Majesty's Ministers seemed to take for granted that, in time of peace, England should be prepared for war, not in the way in which our ancestors would keep her prepared, but according to the new-fangled doctrines which a desolating war of a quarter of a century's duration had introduced. He meant to contend, that we ought not to keep up a large standing army in time of peace. Our insular situation protected us against the danger of an attack. It was upon that our ancestors depended for defence, and upon our free institutions, and the spirit of our people which grew out of those institutions. He had to complain not only of the Government but of that House, for maintaining the present extravagant military establishment of this country. He took no blame to himself on that head, for ever since the peace he had voted for a reduction of these estimates; and, in the calamitously prosperous years of 1824 and 1825, when hon. Gentlemen appeared to think they could not vote away the public money fast enough, he was proud to say, that he had gone out in a division of seven upon those estimates. He was opposed to the whole military system of this country. Ministers had made a great noise and parade about the reductions which they proposed to make, but the distress of the country would force them to make still greater reductions. If those who were far from that place could depend on the rumours which went abroad of what passed within it, it was not the declared intention—and if it had been the intention it would have been declared—of

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Ministers at the opening of the Session to make any reduction in the taxation of the country. They felt, however, at an early period of the Session, the necessity of making some reduction to conciliate the good will of the people. If, then, at the end of fifteen years of peace, Ministers were at last driven to the necessity of reducing taxation, he thought that he was perfectly justified in maintaining that the expenses of the country, during all that long period, had been much too large. Besides the objections which he felt to the magnitude of our expenses, he must say that they appeared to him objectionable, owing to the alterations which they were producing in the character of the nation itself. They were milking us the paltry imitators, at an immeasurable distance, of the great military powers of the Continent. He contended that at the present moment the military establishments of England were monstrous. A standing army of 90,000 men was a monstrous armament for England to maintain. To what dangers were we exposed at present? To the danger of invasion? If so, was it a force of 90,000 men that would prevent our land from being polluted by the hostile tread of the foreigner? No, we must look for safety to the energy of the nation, and to its devotion to its free institutions, which would increase daily, if the House would only yield to the spirit of the times, and give additional strength to all our resources, by a reduction of overgrown establishments. Such were his doctrines; they were unfashionable perhaps, and antiquated, and better suited for the year 1730 than 1830. He was sorry to say that the feeling of the people of England had been corrupted upon this subject. It was not prudent, and perhaps it was not agreeable, to mark such changes; but he was satisfied that the opinions of the country, if he could judge of them by those who were appointed to represent them in that House, were changed, and not changed for the letter, whether viewed in their relation to the spirit of liberty, or in their relation to national independence. If our safety were made to depend on large military institutions, he was sure that sooner or later the time would come when the nation would repent of having trusted to such defences. He had risen upon the present occasion to enter his protest against all the military establishments of the country. He was not going to enter into a discussion of the number of engineers which we ought to keep up, nor of the expediency
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of voting any given sum to the support of the Military College, though that was a head of expenditure which was not, perhaps, in any respect advisable. He had not gone into any examination of the details of those Estimates, because his view of the question was different from that taken by those who had been discussing them item by item. His objections to them were not so much founded upon pecuniary as upon other and higher considerations.
Vote agreed to.
The next grant was for a sum of 300,245 l.. for the Superannuated Allowances in the Ordnance, Pensions to Widows, &c.
Mr. Humetook that opportunity of asking the right hon. Secretary at War whether, at the present moment, there was any sub-lieutenant of artillery on half-pay.
Sir H. Hardingesaid, that there was no sub-lieutenant on half-pay, except such as were disabled and unfit for active service.
Mr. Humesaid, that he would take that opportunity of praising the conduct of Government in bringing every officer on half-pay of the Artillery and Marines into full-pay, instead of appointing young men to new commissions. A system, the very reverse of this, had been adopted in the army, by which the country had lost several hundred thousand pounds every year for some years back.
Grant agreed to.
The next grant was for a sum of 62,655 l., for the Consolidated Ordnance and Barrack Superannuations, in Great Britain, Ireland, and the Colonies.
Mr. Humeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it was intended to allow the Committee which had been recently appointed to examine into the subject of Superannuations, to inquire into the amount of Superannuations already granted, and into the degree in which persons to whom such Superannuations had been granted could be brought back to the public service.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that it was not intended, when that committee was appointed, to allow it to inquire into the superannuations which had been already granted. As to the propriety of bringing back superannuated persons to the public service, that was decidedly one of the objects to which its inquiries would be directed.
Mr. Humeexplained the motives which led him to put that question. About six weeks ago he moved for a return of the number of persons who had been admitted for the first time to civil offices

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within the last five years. That return he had not obtained, though he thought it very important to know what persons were admitted to office, and to superannuated allowances, during a time when so much talk was made, about reductions. He had been informed that the Secretary at War had recently introduced eight individuals into office for the first, time in his department. Now, if this were the fact, it was hardly defensible, seeing that there were individuals in that department now receiving superannuated pensions to the amount of 25,000 l. even year. He wished to know whether there was any truth in this information.
Sir H. Hardingehad a very short answer for that question. Since he had been in the War-office, not a single appointment had been made in it. He believed that since the year 1815, not more than four or five clerks had been appointed altogether by his noble predecessor (Lord Palmerston).
Mr. Hume.—But has there been any appointment of temporary clerks?
Sir H. Hardingesaid, that the hon. Member was most likely aware, that some laborious operations had been conducted by the War-office during the last year. Seven or eight of the principal clerks had been sent round to the head-quarters of the different regiments to get in various accounts. During their absence other clerks had boon appointed to perform their duties at a salary of 5.9. a day each. As soon as those inquiries were terminated, those temporary clerks would be dismissed.
Mr. Humesupposed that this was the foundation of the story which had reached him.
Grant agreed to.
78,455 l. was voted for the Military Store branch in Great Britain, Ireland and the Colonies.
The next grant proposed was 66,122 l. to defray the Command-pay and Extra-pay to Engineers, and allowances for their servants. It was agreed to, after an observation of Mr. Hume upon the strangeness of Engineers, who received such liberal pay, receiving double pay for any extra command.
115,413 l. was granted for Ordnance Works and Repairs for the year 1830.
The next grant proposed was 10,4,335 l. for repairs of Barracks, and the expenditure of Barrack-masters.
Mr. Humeasked why we should pay 7,000 l. for the erection of barracks at
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Gibraltar? Taxes, and heavy taxes too, were levied on all British subjects in that place for the erection of the fortifications, and yet, instead of being applied to that purpose, they were quietly put into his Majesty's pocket. He considered that the taxes thus raised at Gibraltar were illegal,—they were raised by the King's warrant, and not in consequence of any vote of that House. Again, in Malta, 2,697 l. was paid for the same object; and yet Ministers refused to tell Parliament either what revenue was raised in Malta, or what they did with it. So, too, in the West Indies, 30,000 l. was applied to erect fortifications, though the 4½-percent duties were originally given to the Crown for that purpose. Talk of difficulties! why there could be none in England, when the public money was thus squandered upon objects for which the local governments either had provided, or could provide funds of their own. Again, in Canada, 60,000 l. was devoted to barrack-building, independent of 1,000,000 l. spent in fortifications. Why the people of England should pay that money, he could not conceive. If we continued to misgovern the Canadas, our barracks and fortifications would avail us not: if we governed them as freemen ought to be governed, they would find a sufficient defence in their own brave bosoms against all the attacks of the United States. At present, owing to our misgovernment, a civil war was all but raging in Canada. For his own part, nothing would please him better than to see the Canadas free and independent. This country would then be free of an annual drain of a million of money, and the Canadas would be prosperous and flourishing states, taking much more of our manufactures than they did in their existing state of thraldom. In Nova Scotia, too, we erected barracks at the public expense; as well as at the Cape of Good Hope, where he saw a charge of 9,000 l. debited to the public for the same purpose. That colony would pay all its expenses, if it were not unfortunately kept in leading-strings by its most sapient governors. There was a large charge for the same object under the head of Mauritius and Ceylon, though it had been stated that those colonies would gladly pay all their expenses if we would only admit their sugar at a less duty. Then there was 1,135 l. for barrack-building at Sierra Leone, a place which we ought long since to have deserted. He concluded by asserting, that if the House would but appoint a

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committee to inquire into the expenditure of these sums, this grant would be reduced to a twentieth part of its present amount.
Mr. R. Gordonobserved, that it had been stated that all the expenses of barracks and fortifications in the West Indies ought to be paid out of the 4½-per-cent duties. Now those duties had been misappropriated for a long time past, under various pretexts. His hon. friend, the member for Aberdeen, had moved for a return of the sums thus obtained during the last few years, and that return had been put into the hands of hon. Members that morning. All persons who held West-Indian property had recently been great sufferers from the depreciation which it had undergone; and as those 4½-per-cent duties were paid in kind, he was afraid, that owing to the depreciation of West-Indian produce, the Crown would not be able to pay the pensions which it had granted upon them. To his great surprise, however, he found, that in the last two years they had doubled, and nearly trebled, their former amount. They used to amount to about 28,000 l. or 29,000 l.; in the year 1828 they had amounted to 62,000 l.; and in the year 1829, to 66,000 l. How had this increase been effected? By calling in the aid of his Majesty's Attorney and Solicitor General. They had discovered that the King's sugars were not liable to duty; and thus no duty had been paid upon them since the 25th of March, 1826. Thus his Majesty now got the whole profits arising from the sale of the sugar, whilst formerly those profits were diminished by the payment of the duty upon them. He called the attention of the House to this paper, which had only been presented that day, and which had, on that account, perhaps, escaped the vigilant attention of his hon. friend the member for Aberdeen.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the Act of Parliament prevented Government from imposing any charges upon these 4½-per-cents in the West Indies, except for the payment of the Church, and some other services. This was the opinion of the law officers of the Crown. The remainder of the expenditure was made up from the general colonial funds.
Mr. Humesaid, that the sugar duties had, however, come regularly in, and been carried as usual into the funds of the Exchequer. In 1817, they left a surplus of 2,000 l., and in the last year upwards of 66,000 l.—where was the balance?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that these receipts had been regularly accounted for.
The Resolution agreed to.
In answer to a question from Mr. Hume,
Sir H. Hardingesaid, that the expense of the barrack department had been reduced 42,000 l., and that in the year 1825, in consequence of an inquiry instituted by the Duke of Wellington into all the barrack buildings of the Colonies, a great saving, both in point of expense and health, had been obtained by the use of iron bedsteads instead of wooden ones, and instead of hammocks.
Mr. Perceval Mr. Perceval moved, that a sum not exceeding 211,213 l. be granted to defray the Civil and Military Contingencies of the Office of Ordnance for the year 1830.
[Some conversation ensued upon this Resolution, respecting the expenditure of the Ordnance survey of Ireland, from which it appeared that the Irish grand juries had requested to have the maps made on a particular scale, they contributing part of the expense; the maps were in progress accordingly, but no money had been paid.]
The Resolution was agreed to, as well as another of 2,600 l. for defraying the charges and fees payable to the Exchequer on account of the Ordnance.
Mr. Maberlysaid, he would, on a future occasion, oppose this mode of receiving with one hand and paying with another in the public accounts.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he would have the subject examined next year.
Mr. Hobhousewished to know whether the barracks at the Mews at Charing Cross, were to be still upheld, to deform the new and expensive improvements made in the same neighbourhood.
Mr. Percevalsaid, that quarters would be kept there for the original number of soldiers.
Mr. R. Gordonobjected to these barracks, more particularly as it was intended to billet soldiers on those who sold beer under the new regulations. This would, from the great increase of such traders, take away the excuse for having these barracks for military accommodation.
The Resolution agreed to.
The House resumed: the Report to be received on Monday.

SCOTCH COURTS OF SESSION.
The Lord Advocate The Lord Advocate moved the second reading of the Scotch Courts of Session Bill.
Sir Charles Forbesgave notice, that he would propose an augmentation of 1,000 l. a-year to the salaries of Scotch Judges. They were exposed, from their station, to great expense, and yet they were very poorly paid, considering the incomes allowed to English Judges. He enforced the necessity and propriety of this augmentation, and said he would use his utmost efforts to accomplish it. He merely spoke from the impulse of common justice, having received no communication on the subject from the learned persons themselves.
Mr. R. Gordonpointed out the distinction between the duties of the Scotch and English Judges, which was greatly in favour of the former, from the better division of labour. He said, the salaries of the Scotch Judges were raised in 1810, when the articles of life were sold at very high prices, and they had so continued ever since. Considering the present value of money, and the labours of the Judges, he was convinced they were sufficiently paid.
Mr. Cutlar FergusonFerguson was much obliged to the Lord Advocate for having introduced this Bill, and he hoped he would carry it through. In his opinion the Scotch Judges ought to receive an additional remuneration.
Bill read a second time; to be committed on the 20th of May.

MINUTES.
Accounts ordered. On the Motion of Lord DURHAM, the Sums of Money paid by the Treasury on account of Inquiries ordered by Parliament into the Boroughs of Penryn and East Retford, up to the present time.
Accounts presented. The average price of British Wheat between July, 1828, and February, 1830:—Of British Cloths exported to China between 1811 and 1829.
Petitions presented. By Earl FITZWILLIAM from Kolvedon, Yorkshire, against the Punishment of Death for Forgery; and from certain Dissenters of Shefield, for the Abolition of Slavery. By Visc. MELVILLE, from the Merchant Company of the City of Edinburgh, against the additional Duty on home-made Spirits. By the Karl of HARDWICKE, from the Inhabitants of Cambridge, against the Bill for extending exemption from Arrest for Debts to sums less than 100 l.; and from the same parties, against a proposed alteration in the law relative to the distance from London at which Commissions of Bankruptey must be worked in the Metropolis.

GREECE.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that he had just returned from France, where he had learned, that a Prince connected with this country was nominated Sovereign of Greece by the Allied Powers. It was some time since the noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs had promised to lay papers on their Table relating to the negotiations with Greece. If they were concluded, why leave Englishmen to learn the particulars of this and other parts of their foreign policy from the governments of the Continent? He likewise wished to know whether a reclamation had been made to the Prince alluded to, to forego his position of naturalization in this country? The foreign policy of the noble Secretary was singular: he had raised Don Miguel, while others wished to knock him down. No time ought, in his opinion, to be lost in clearing up the foreign policy of Great Britain. It was twenty-two months since the papers relative to Greece had been promised to their Lordships, and if they were not speedily laid on the Table, he should feel it to be his duty to make a motion on the subject.
The Earl of Aberdeentrusted, that in a very few days it would be in his power to bring down the papers relating to Greece. Though the noble Marquis had alluded to Don Miguel, he had put no question on Portuguese affairs, and he should therefore say nothing upon that subject.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, my question is plainly and simply this,—Is Prince Leopold appointed sovereign of Greece, by virtue of a treaty concluded by the Allied Powers? Has he been asked to forego his naturalization in Great Britain, in order to accept this new Sovereignty?
The Earl of Aberdeendid not think it incumbent upon him to answer whatever questions the noble Marquis thought proper to put, yet he had no objection to state, that his Royal Highness Prince Leopold was the personage to whom the Allied Sovereigns had offered the Sovereignty of
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Greece. Some points of the negotiation were not however concluded; they were not fundamental, and would, he hoped, soon be settled.
The Duke of Wellington.—"To the other part of the noble Marquis's question, relative to the naturalization, I have no hesitation in giving an answer in the negative."

TERCEIRA.
The Marquis of Clanricardewished to know whether his Majesty's Ministers had received official notification of the establishment of a regency at Terceira by the lawful Queen of Portugal; and, if they had, whether any steps had been taken by them in consequence?
The Earl of Aberdeenreplied, that the Ministers were aware of the fact of the establishment of such a Regency; hut they had no official relations with the persons composing it.

EAST RETFORD DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
On the Motion of the Marquis of Salisbury, their Lordships proceeded to hear counsel and examine witnesses on this Bill, which occupied them for several hours.