Sitting of 7 April 1830

MINUTES.
The Haymarket Removal Bill was Read a third time and passed.
Returns Ordered. On the Motion of Mr. HUME, of the number of Debtors who had taken the Rules of the King's Bench and Fleet Prisons, for the last five years, specifying their respective amounts of debt (classified in hundreds,) the Fees they paid, and how these Fees were sanctioned by law, and applied.

He stated his object to be, to show how far these Rules operated in prevention of the settlement of honest debts, before the Insolvent Debtors' Act next came under the consideration of the House.
On the Motion of Mr. WODEHOUSE, of the total amount of Money levied for Poor-rates and County-rates, in every Parish or Township of England and Wales, during the year ending March 25, 1830. On the Motion of Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS, of the quantity of Rum consumed in England, Scotland, and Ireland, during the last five years preceding the reduction of the Duty on British Spirits, to 2s. 6d. per gallon. On the Motion of Mr. ATTWOOD, of the whole expense incurred for the Post-Office Packets between Calais and Dover, including the Port-dues charged for the two years ending January 5, 1829, and January 5, 1830: a similar account of the Post-Office Packets between Margate and Ostend, with the amount of Fares charged by both Packets for Passengers, Horses and Carriages.
Petitions Presented. Against a Renewal of the East-India Company's Charter, by Mr. RAMSDEN, from the inhabitants of the Clothing District of Shipley. For the Abolition of the Duty on Coals, by Mr. IRVING, from Larn. For mitigating the severity of the Criminal Code, by Mr. WESTERN, from the inhabitants of Kelvedon, (Essex):— by Mr. ASHURST, from Chipping Norton. For the repeal of the Malt and Beer Duties, by Mr. JOHN FANE, from Burford. Against the proposed alteration in the Beer Trade, by Colonel SIBTHORP, from the Publicans of Lincoln. Complaining of Distress, and praying for Relief, by Mr. EASTHOPE, from the county of Hertford.

EXCESSIVE TAXATION.
Mr. Humepresented a Petition, agreed to by a large number of the working Stonemasons of the Metropolis, assembled at the theatre of the London Mechanics' Institution, complaining that their situation was deteriorated, which they attributed to excessive Taxation, and praying the House for the further reduction of Taxation, and the abolition of all Sinecures. The petitioners also prayed the House would take into its consideration the large sums paid to the Bishops, and other members of the Established Church, while the industrious man was reduced to a state of starvation. The petitioners complained that the lordly followers of the meek religion of Christ starved them out of existence. This, the hon. Member said, was a fair subject for petitioning; he cordially agreed with the prayer of the Petition, and hoped, when there was a reformed Parliament—for which the petitioners also prayed—that the large salaries of the Bishops would be reduced, and every man paid according to his labour.

MISREPRESENTATION.
Mr. Hume, on

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concluding the presentation of the Petition, spoke as follows, in allusion to last night's debate:—"Sir, it is not often that I trouble the House with any matter which is merely personal to myself, and I am of opinion that the greatest benefit results to the community from the utmost freedom of debate in this House. I am likewise a! man who does not care much for the expression of opinion upon general questions, thinking; it just as well to leave that to be reflected upon; and always confiding in my own intentions. I wish also to state, that no person can be more favourable than I am to the full publicity of the re- ports of our proceedings; the utility of this House, in fact, mainly depends upon the diligent, constant, proper and faithful reports of these proceedings; and upon this point I would just say, that I hope my hon. friend near me, (Colonel Sibthorp,) will bring forward the motion of which he has given notice, and in which he shall have my best support, to obtain leave to suspend the Standing Order, and to have the reporters regularly introduced and sanctioned, as well as placed in a more favourable situation for the performance of their duty; where there will be less liability to mistakes, and better means used for avoiding errors, than we can well expect under the present arrangements. What I rose for, Sir, is to call your attention to a misrepresentation of what took place here last night. I hold in my hand a newspaper, [the hon. Member did not name it, which is, I believe, as correct a paper as any in conveying to the public what passes in this House, but which attributes last night an expression to the hon. and gallant officer opposite that certainly was never heard by me. I had, I thought, paid the fullest attention to what was passing here at the time, and I do not believe any such expression was used, for it would have been that extreme violation of the decorum of the House, which you, Sir, would not have permitted from the Chair, and which I certainly could not have allowed to pass without observation. The expression attributed in this paper to the hon. and gallant officer is as follows: 'The lie, therefore, that he (Lord Ellen-borough) had connived at his own disgrace, was so monstrous, that he (Sir H. Hardinge) threw it back with scorn on its contemptible author.' I was the only person who had previously spoken in the debate, and therefore such a phrase, if
1416
used, could only have applied to me. I can only say I never heard it, and it was only this morning, when a gentleman brought me the paper, and pointed out the passage, that I saw it. I said to him then, as I now repeat, that no such expression was used; yet, as it conveys a personal reflection, and involves in some degree the character of the House, by exhibiting a violation of the courtesy which one hon. Member is bound to pay another in debate, I have no other course open than to take this notice of it. I do not mean to say that the error in the paper is intentional, but as no other person had spoken at the time than myself, no other could have been addressed in such language, had it been used. I hope, therefore, the hon. and gallant Member will say how far this statement is consistent, or not, with his recollection of what, fell from him in his speech."
Sir Henry Hardinge,—"If, immediately after I spoke at the moment, the hon. Member had no recollection of my using-such a phrase, although he says he was attentively listening to me, he will easily believe it is very probable I could not have used it. No such expression was, in point of fact, used by me, as directed against him. Certainly, I never could have so far departed from the courtesy which one Gentleman is bound to observe towards another in this House, as to charge him with uttering a notorious and unnatural lie. What I said was, as well as I recollect, that the accusation against Lord Ellenborough, of having connived at his own disgrace was a foul calumny, and I threw back the unnatural he upon the authors of it. I used the plural number, intending the imputation for the authors of those calumnies out of doors, of which Lord Ellenborough had to complain. What I did say last night I find reported with singular, indeed wonderful, accuracy in The Times newspaper of this morning; and there I find the word 'authors,' which of course could not mean the hon. member for Montrose. But at the same time I do intend to accuse him of perverting the bearing of the evidence in his remarks upon it. There is one error in the concluding paragraph of my speech, in which I am stated to have said, when speaking of Lord Ellenborough, 'that if it could be shown he had done any thing wrong, he would be the first man to come forward and atone for it,' I said nothing of this

1417
kind as applicable to Lord Ellenborough, but with reference to myself. I knew Lord Ellenborough could not come here to give explanations, although I could. As the hon. member for Montrose always bears every thing which passes here with good humour, he will, I hope, as constantly find me doing the same, and I should be sorry if he retained an impression that I could have used towards him any expression so gross as that which he has mentioned here."

REPORTS OF THE PROCEEDINGS IN PARLIAMENT.
Colonel Sibthorp, in presenting a Petition, took the opportunity of stating, that he meant soon after Easter to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, for the better accommodation of those who report the proceedings of the House. If his motion were agreed to, the result of giving better accommodation to reporters, he was persuaded would be, that more full and more accurate accounts of what was said in that House would be published, and Members would not be annoyed, as they now frequently were, by misrepresentations, which, however unintentional, were injurious to the Members in relation to their constituents. He trusted the House would facilitate so desirable an object, and that his motion would not meet with one dissentient voice.

STAMP DUTIES (IRELAND).
Sir John Newportpresented a Petition from the Chamber of Commerce of Waterford, against the proposed plan for assimilating the Stamp Duties of England and Ireland. There were two ways, the hon. Baronet said, of assimilating duties; lowering the high ones and raising the low ones; but unfortunately, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as far as his experience went, always took the latter method, and augmented the burthens of the people. By his proposed plan, an addition of taxation, to the amount of 100,000 l., would be levied on Ireland, which at present would be a serious injury to that country. In particular he wished to know if it were intended to continue the Stamps on Law-papers, which operated as a denial of justice to the poor? He thought these ought to be abolished, and other Stamp Duties lowered. The Government had professed an anxious desire to give tranquillity to Ireland, to encourage its trade; but to impose new taxes on it, did not seem to him to be the
1418
best way of satisfying the people and extending commerce. He trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would pause before he threw additional burthens on a community struggling to bear its present load. He hoped, before the bill was brought in, a schedule would be produced, stating the present duties, and the proposed augmentation. He had always observed, that in imposing new taxes, the real and ultimate effect was always kept out of view. He hoped, however, that the House would not give the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposition the authority of law till the fullest information was laid before the House, and it was accurately ascertained what would be the exact amount and effects of the new Stamp Duties to be levied in Ireland, in order to make the duties there correspond to the duties in England.
Petition laid on the Table and printed.

DISTILLERY OF CORN SPIRITS.
Mr. Home Drummondrose to present a Petition from a very important interest in the community—he meant the Distillers from Corn Spirits, who complained, and he thought justly, of the imposition of the additional duty of Is. a gallon upon Corn Spirits, while there was no corresponding additional duty imposed upon Rum. He would entreat the House to bear in mind, that in the year 1825, after due and deliberate investigation on the part of the Government, an arrangement, having all the appearance of permanency, was made between the parties, and which was admitted by Lord Goderich, under whose auspices it was made, fair and equitable. By that arrangement it was fixed that a duty of 8s. 6d. the imperial gallon should be laid on Rum, and 7s. on Corn Spirits. The latter, by the additional duty now proposed, was to be 8s. while, he repeated, there was to be no corresponding increase of the duty upon Rum. The petitioners were desirous of knowing what change of circumstances had taken place in the relative situation of the parties, to justify this infringement upon the arrangement of 1825; for, so far from seeing any to justify it, they were of opinion that the changes in the relative situation of the parties, and in the prices of their commodities, which had occurred since, ought rather to have produced a directly opposite result. The petitioners, indeed, contended that the alteration which had taken place in the

1419
circumstances of the markets called for an alteration of the duty in a different sense, it should have led to a more generous policy towards the Distillers of Corn Spirits, instead of the unequal and unjust depreciation of their property which must follow the adoption of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's resolutions. From important documents laid on the Table of the House, it appeared, that the consumption of Rum had rapidly increased since 1825. The average price of Barley before 1825 was 29 s., and now it was 34 s. This change ought to have made the Chancellor of the Exchequer levy an additional duty on Rum. The petitioners said, that if the increase of duty were persisted in, homemade Spirits would be driven out of the market. It could be manufactured into Gin cheaper than home-made Corn Spirits. He was unwilling to detain the House with long detailed calculations, but as the whole question was one of detail, he hoped they would allow him to state the case, by a mere specification of the accounts as they stood.
The consumption of Rum and British Spirits in England stood thus:—

RUM.

Gallons.

For the year ending 5th of Jan. 1830

3,302,143

For the year ending 5th of Jan. 1829

3,064,856

Increased consumption in the year ending the 5th of Jan. 1830

2,37,287

[See Purl. Paper, No. 211, March 29, 1830.]

BRITISH SPIRITS.

For the year ending 5th of Jan. 1829

7,759,694

For the year ending 5th of Jan. 1830

7,700,760

Decrease on British Spirits, for the year ending 5th of Jan. 1830

59,934

BARLEY.

[See Parl. Paper, No. 211, March 29, 1830.]

s.

d.

Average price of Barley, per quarter, for five years, from 1820 to 1824

29

0

Average price of Barley, per quarter, for five years, from 1825 to 1829

34

9

Average increase on the price of Barley, during the last 5 years

5

9

[See Parl. Paper, No. 154, March 13,1830.]

The fact was, that it was impossible to look at the comparative operation of the duties on Rum and Corn Spirits, without being sensible that the new regulations would be so injurious to the manufacturers of Spirits from Corn, as to drive them from the market. It was evident that already the competition was entirely in favour of the West Indies, and the additional duty on home-made Spirits would be a still further advantage to the manufacturers of Rum.
It appeared also, from official docu-
1420
ments, that in the year ending the 5th of January, 1830,

Gallons Proof.

The quantity of Corn Spirit distilled in England for home consumption is

3,860,542

The quantity of Corn Spirit distilled, in Scotland, and exported to England

3,008,686

The quantity of Corn Spirit distilled, in Ireland, and exported to England

671,497

3,680,183

Total of Corn Spirit

7,540,725

The quantity of Rum for home consumption in England in said period is

3,302,143

The quantity of Corn Spirit distilled, for the Navy

400,000

3,702,143

General Total

11,242,868

Thus, if the consumption of these articles in England, for said year, be divided into 100 equal parts,

Parts.

The quantity supplied by England is

34·33

The quantity supplied, by the Scotch and Irish distillers

32·73

The quantity supplied, by the West India planters

32·94

100·00

If this protection shall be reduced, as now proposed, to 6d., Rum will in all probability, supply the whole consumption of the market.

s.

d.

The present duty on English Raw Corn Spirit is

7

0

The proposed additional duty on English Raw Corn spirit is

1

0

8

0

This Spirit cannot be afforded for less than

3

0

11

0

The expense of rectifying, compounding, and sweetening the gallon at proof, without profit to the rectifier, is

0

8

11

8

The disadvantage to English Spirit, is, consequently, obvious.

s.

d.

Malt Whisky distilled in England, or brought thither from Scotland or Ireland, pays duty of

7

0

Besides the whole of the duty on Malt

1

2

If to this be added the proposed new duty of

1

0

The duty per gallon on Malt Whisky in England is,

9

2

While the duty on Rum is only 8s. 6d.

It appeared, therefore, that the imposition of this additional duty of 1s. per gallon upon Corn Spirits would change the whole nature of the trade, and inflict a serious injury on the home-manufacturer. If the home-distiller were not harassed by vexatious regulations and unequal imposts, he would be quite ready to compete with the maker of Rum; but as it was, that was impossible, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would state why he made this alteration, which would not succeed, he believed, as a matter of revenue, while it would inflict great evil upon distillers of Corn Spirits. He begged to assure the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he had great confidence in his firmness and in his sense of justice, and he trusted, therefore, that no influence would make him commit what appeared to be an injury to a very opulent and useful class of men.
Mr. Brownlowwould take this opportunity of stating, that he had a similar Petition to present from the Distillers of Corn Spirits in Ireland; it was signed by six or seven of the principal distillers, and conveyed the sentiments of the whole body. He thought it right on this occasion to state, that the Irish distillers had peculiar grievances to complain of, independent of those which they had in common with the English and Scotch. There was great injustice and hardship in the way in which these additional duties were proposed to be levied. The Irish distiller had to pay an additional duty of 2d. per gallon on his own consumption, and 1s. per gallon on his export. In 1825, when the last arrangement was made, which they had hoped was not so soon to fluctuate, the new duties were levied after the passing of the Act; in the present case they were to be retrospective, and to apply to every gallon of Spirits in the market after the 15th of March, and the stocks of the Irish distillers were liable to the addition for days before they knew of the impost. In this respect he did conceive the Irish distiller had much to complain of, for he had many contracts at fixed prices, which were now only in progress of delivery: he would have to deliver to the merchant at the stipulated prices, and to bear this loss of the retrospective duty, which was certainly unfair and unjust. The Irish distillers stated, that in the year 1825, this subject was most fully investigated, and a protecting duty of 1s. 6d. was then allotted for their Spirits. Upon the faith of this arrangement large
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capitals had been embarked, and extensive engagements concluded. All these were now injured and perplexed by the proposed additional duty. Instead of being permitted fairly to enter the market, they were exposed to vast disadvantages from the special protection which it seemed Rum was now to receive. This was about also to be bestowed, when the circumstances of the markets required the Government, if it interfered at all, to increase the duty on Rum, and lower that on Spirits made from Corn. The Irish distiller gave employment to many people, and laying an additional duty on his commodity would add to the sufferings of the Irish peasantry. The new duty too would be injurious to the agricultural interests at large, for it would give those Spirits which were the produce of sugar so great an advantage in the home-market as compared with the disadvantages under which Spirits, the produce of this country, laboured, as to render them unsaleable, except at a price which was ruinous to the manufacturer. The consumption of Rum, for the last year, amounted to 3,302,000 gallons, while in the preceding year it amounted to only 3,065,000 gallons. Thus an increase of 237,000 gallons had taken place in the consumption of Rum, during one year, while the consumption of British spirits had decreased 59,924 gallons. The British distiller laboured under another disadvantage,—the advance in the price of Barley, for the last five years, of 5s. 9d. per quarter. If corn were admitted freely into this country, and if the British distiller was free from all those impediments which the distilling laws opposed to him, then he would be quite ready to compete with the West Indian, or any other distillers. He wished the Chancellor of the Exchequer would make such a statement as was calculated to dispel the serious alarms which agitated the minds of the British distillers.
Mr. Westernsupported the complaint of the petitioners, and declared, that although he should be sorry to do anything which would prejudice the interests of the West-India proprietors, he was satisfied that they possessed an undue advantage over the British distiller. The subject was one in which he felt great interest, because the agriculturists were well aware that the distillers were among their most useful customers. The great county he represented was therefore much interested in this question, and he did hope that the

1423
Chancellor of the Exchequer would adopt some method of relieving the West-India interest which would not injure the distillers and agriculturists of Great Britain. He could not help feeling surprised that an additional duty should be levied on British made Spirits, without any corresponding protecting duty against the importation of Rum: and he trusted that his Majesty's Government would adopt some means of meeting the views of the petitioners.
Mr. Marryat, supported the claims of the West-India Planters to the consideration of the House, and contended that they had as good a right to participate in the benefits of the home consumption as the agriculturists or the distillers, and that they paid a very high price for that participation by the restrictions imposed on them.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not rise to enter upon the discussion of the question brought before the House. He had had frequent opportunities of meeting both the parties interested on the subject, had heard the question discussed on both sides, and had made such inquiries as he thought proper as to the statements he had received, but he thought it better to defer going into any discussion on the question until he brought his bill on this matter regularly before the House, when an opportunity would occur of going into the whole of the calculations. He only begged hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House to believe that he should propose that bill with no view of favouring either one or other interested party. He had endeavoured by his proposed measure to give them both that fair competition in the market which both had a right to expect. He was not insensible to the importance of the great interests concerned in the subject, but while he remembered what was due to the petitioners, he could not forget the claims of our West-India Colonies, and in his opinion, the home-market ought to be equally accessible to both. The calculations submitted to the House did not seem to him quite correct. The parties interested had, as was very natural, dealt somewhat in exaggeration, and he had no doubt, when the matter came properly under discussion, that he should satisfy all parties of the justice of the views entertained by his Majesty's Government, though, as each party sought a peculiar advantage, he was afraid neither would be contented by those views.
Mr. S. Ricedid not intend to prolong the present conversation, but rose to bear testimony to the respectability of the signatures attached to the Petition. Whenever the question was discussed, he should consider the interests of Ireland and the Colonies closely connected. He acquiesced entirely in the principles laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he thought it was the duty of the House to discuss the question fairly, and with a view of doing justice to all parties. He wished to obtain no advantage for Ireland, at the expense of the Colonies, but he must at the same time say, that he was not ready to concede to the Colonies new advantages without a full conviction of their being both just and necessary.
Mr. Brightconsidered the Scotch and Irish distillers as having already an unfair advantage over the English distillers, because the duty was much higher in England than in Scotland or Ireland: these, therefore, had no right whatever to complain. Why the distillers of Scotland and Ireland were allowed to have this advantage over the distillers of England he did not understand. As to the increased consumption of Rum, that was very small in England; while the consumption in Ireland and Scotland had, he believed, fallen off. He was disposed to complain of the Scotch and Irish distillers, who seemed to want the monopoly of the English market: whatever their motive might be, he was confident that their advantages were too great for them ever to be injured by the consumption of Rum in the British market.
Mr. Bernal, although one of those interested in the prosperity of the West-Indies, had never wished to support their trade at the expense of either the English, Scotch, or Irish agriculturists and distillers. It was, however, a well known fact, that the distillers had been at all times anxious for a monopoly, which must be at variance with the interests of the community, and although the duty on the Spirits of the Colonies was 8s. a gallon, and that on the Spirits of the Mother Country only 2s. 10 d., they were anxious to procure still further protection. For his part, he considered the people of Barbadoes, Jamaica, Antigua, and the other West-India Islands to be as much British subjects as the inhabitants of Scotland or Ireland, and to be as much entitled to protection in the home-market for the consumption of their productions. He recollected well that Lord Goderich,

1425
when Mr. Robinson, declared, five years ago, that the principle of fair competition between the Mother Country and the Colonies was a sound one, and on the 5th of February, 1825, when he, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, proposed the additional duty of 1s. 6d. on Rum, he re-affirmed the same principle, and declared that if it appeared, after the experiment had been tried, as some persons apprehended, that this duty would become prohibitory, the Government would be willing to remove it, and make an alteration which would leave the market open to competition. That duty had, as was anticipated, proved injurious, and he contended that even the alteration now proposed would by no means counteract the effect of the 1s. 6d. then laid improperly on Rum; in fact that duty had acted as a prohibition; and that circumstance alone made out a case to justify the Chancellor of the Exchequer coming down to the House and proposing an additional duty on British Spirits. He wished, however, that the right hon. Gentleman would say something more to set this matter at rest, for as long as the two opposing interests thought the Government was not fully resolved, so long would both parties be unable to carry on their operations with their accustomed energies, and those operations were as necessary to others as to themselves.
Sir G. Clerkcontended, that the increase of the consumption of Rum proved sufficiently that the duty was not sufficient to allow a fair competition. The British distillers did not seek, therefore, as the hon. member for Rochester supposed, an unfair advantage, but to secure to themselves an adequate protection. He was sorry that, while the consumption of Rum had increased, and that of British Spirits decreased, it should have been thought advisable to lay an additional duty on the Spirits manufactured in the three countries. That increase of duty would have the effect of encouraging the crime of smuggling and demoralizing the people. The hon. member for Rochester, was wrong also in supposing that the distillers had no claims on the Government, because the duties were low in Ireland and Scotland; they had there been made low in order to put an end to smuggling, and that the reduction of the duty had accomplished,— but the distillers both of Scotland and Ireland manufactured for
1426
the English market and there it was, not in Ireland and Scotland, that they came into competition with Rum. This was the circumstance that made them object to the advantage, which the proposed new duties would give to Rum in the English markets.
Mr. Wodehouseconcurred with the hon. Baronet who had just spoken, and he hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not lose sight of the agricultural interests. He should have been glad to have seen encouragement given to the West-Indian proprietors, by taking off the duty on sugar, rather than by increasing the duty on British Spirits.
Mr. G. Mooretrusted, that as far as Ireland was concerned, no short-sighted policy would induce the Government to abandon that which afforded the only means of protection to the Irish agriculturist for the consumption of his corn. He contended, that experience since 1825, showed that the Irish distiller needed still further protection than was afforded him by the arrangement made at that period. When the consumption of Rum had increased, it was surely too much to require that two-thirds of the present protecting duty in favour of British Spirits should be done away.
Mr. William Smithsaid, so many important interests were involved in this matter, that it deserved to be seriously considered. He conceived that the arrangement made by Lord Goderich, four or five years ago, was to be a permanent one. That arrangement was come to, after an inquiry as full and as extensive as could be had now, and the onus probandi lay with the right hon. Gentleman, to show why one-third of the protecting duty then imposed upon Rum should be now taken oft". It was stated, that there was no reason for altering the duties; he saw, indeed, a very good reason for altering them in another direction than that proposed. For example, the increase in the consumption of Rum in the last year amounted to 237,287 gallons, while at the same time, the price of corn, the material from which British Spirit was made, was now, upon an average, 5s. 9d. higher than when the difference was struck in 1825. The average price of barley per quarter, from 1820 to 1824, was 29 s., and its average price from 1825 to 1829 was 34 s. 9d. per quarter, and it was during this high price of the raw material that the consumption of Rum had increased. He denied that the English distiller had

1427
been favoured since the first part of Mr. Pitt's administration, when Mr. Pitt raised the duties on Colonial Spirits to keep down the consumption. It ought to be recollected that, in consequence of the legislative regulations in 1825, the English distillers had been put to the expense of 259,000 l. for alterations in their premises; That money was taken out of their pockets without any corresponding benefit being bestowed on them. What would the West-India planters have said if they had been compelled to lay out a sum of that amount? In fact, it had operated as a fine on the English distillers. When the proper time came for discussing the subject, he should be able to show that the English distillers had as good a case as ever came under the consideration of the House.
Mr. C. Pallmersaid, that as, notwithstanding discussion was generally deprecated at the present moment, every Member who had risen had said something upon the subject, he must be allowed to trouble the House with a few words. Did those hon. Members who talked of the advantage which the proposed measure would give to the West-India interest recollect the sacrifices which that interest had made? Would the Scotch and Irish distillers be disposed to sell at a loss, as the West-India planters had done? It had been said that the consumption of Rum increased last year; but that was to be accounted for by the fact, that the West-India interest had been selling at a considerable loss. That could be satisfactorily proved to the House. The arrangement of Lord Goderich on the subject was an experimental arrangement, the object of which was, to produce and preserve an equal competition. Had it succeeded? No. Let means be adopted then for securing a fair competition in all parts of the empire, and that would be just and satisfactory. To the remark that the British distillers had been put to a great expense by the alteration in their premises, the answer was, that the British distillers continued to be in a very prosperous and flourishing state.
Petition to be printed.

LIBRARY OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. Agar Ellis Mr. Agar Ellis moved for the Appointment of a Select Committee, to inquire into the present state of the Library of the House of Commons, and to take into consideration what further regu-
1428
lations might be necessary for its management, and to report thereon to the House.
Mr. Spring Riceseconded the Motion, and expressed his surprise that the necessity of having a well-regulated Library had not been, earlier felt by the House. He had been one of the first persons to recommend the formation of a library, and those Members who opposed his views, were now sensible of its utility. He agreed that it was quite proper to inquire if it could not be placed on a more advantageous footing. At the same time, he must bear his testimony to the merits of Mr. Spiller, the Librarian, whose knowledge and attention afforded every possible facility to those hon. Members who wished to avail themselves of the means of information which the Library afforded.
Sir R. Inglisexpressed his full concurrence in what had been said by the hon. member for Limerick, as to the services of Mr. Spiller; he also agreed with the hon. Member, that it was a matter of great astonishment that such a body as the House of Commons should have gone on, until three years ago, without a. Library. It was not possible, he believed, that such a fact could be stated of any other deliberative assembly.
Mr. George Dawsonobserved, that in the whole range of public men, there was not a more meritorious individual than Mr. Spiller. He had not only exerted himself to the greatest degree in the arrangements of the Library, but in the preparation of copious indexes to all the public statutes from 1801 to 1828, which were invaluable for purposes of reference. This latter occupation was not comprehended in Mr. Spider's official duties; and under all the circumstances, the salary of the Librarian, which was only 300 l. a-year, appeared to be an inadequate remuneration for so much and such beneficial labour. He trusted, therefore, that House would be convinced of the propriety of augmenting Mr. Spiller's salary.
Mr. Warburtonalso bore testimony to Mr. Spiller's merits. He understood there was a large collection of papers belonging to another House, containing important and valuable documents, which were inaccessible and useless for want of an index. If an index could be formed, so that a reference to these important papers could be easily made, it would be a great advantage.
Mr. Humesaid, although no one could

1429
value Mr. Spiller's services more highly than he did, yet he must protest against any increase of his salary, if it were intended to be proposed. 300 l. a-year appeared to him to be a sufficient remuneration for his duties as a Librarian. At the same time, he should not object to any regulation which should remunerate him for any additional labour, not falling within the scope of his official duty.
Motion agreed to, and the following Committee appointed:—.
Mr. Agar Ellis, Mr. Secretary Peel, Mr. Spring Rice, Lord Viscount Lowther, Lord Viscount Morpeth, Mr. Littleton, Mr. Cust, Mr. Ridley Colborne, Mr. George Dawson, Sir Robert Inglis, Sir Henry Hardinge, Mr. Williams Wynne, Sir George Clerk, Sir James Graham, and Mr. Courtenay.

MALT DUTIES.
Mr. George Dawsonrose to move, pursuant to notice, for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Act of 7 and 8 Geo. 4th, cap. 54, relating to the levying of the Duties on Malt. The regulations which were contained in the Bill which he proposed to introduce had been agreed upon in certain conferences that had taken place between a deputation of the Maltsters and the Commissioners of the Excise Board; and he therefore supposed this Bill would not meet with any opposition. Amongst other alterations, this Bill would do away with the Barley-book, in which the maltster was obliged to enter the quantity of barley he had taken in each day, the quantity he had on hand, and the quantity he sent out. It also altered the number of days allowed for the sprinkling of barley from twelve to eight days, and it likewise contained an important regulation for the abolition of the certificate system. These regulations would be productive of great advantage to the trade. There was one other important alteration proposed by this Bill. After the process of sprinkling, under the present law, an allowance of 20 per cent was made for the increase. The Excise Commissioners had shown to the maltsters that that was too much, and it was now determined to leave it at 17½. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Malt Acts.
Motion agreed to, and Bill brought in.

FOUR-PER-CENT ANNUITIES BILL.— ASSESSED TAXES.
On the Chancellor
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of the Exchequer moving that this Bill be read a third time,
Mr. Brightsaid, that as a misapprehension had got abroad respecting what had been said last night by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he would take that opportunity to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he meant to bring in a bill this Session for the consolidation of the laws relating to the Assessed Taxes.
The Chancellor of the Excheqeursaid, that it was not his intention to bring in such a bill this Session. The consolidation of the Stamp Acts, which was the consolidation of 152 Acts of Parliament, had been attended with so much labour, that he could not venture to involve himself in a work of similar labour during the present Session. Some progress had been made in the consolidation to which the hon. and learned Gentleman alluded, which would be of use in a future Session of Parliament.
Mr. Humethought that the excuse just made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for not bringing forward a bill for the consolidation of the laws relating to the Assessed Taxes was but a very bad one. If the right hon. Gentleman himself had not time for such labour, his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Herries), who had not introduced any bill this Session, was not equally occupied, and might find time for introducing such a measure.
Mr. Herrieshoped that he was never backward in taking his due share of ministerial labour. At the same time be thought that the House would hardly deem it necessary to have the consolidation of the Stamp Acts, and of the Acts relative to the Assessed Taxes before it at one and the same time. It was not a question of urgent necessity; although desirable, it was not so much so as to make the House submit to the inconvenience of hurrying it forward when there was so much other business before it.
Mr. Brighthad heard the answer of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with much pain, as a great many cases of oppression had taken place under the existing laws. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would allow the subject to be referred to a committee, in order that it might examine whether any and what alterations could be made in the present Acts; for sure he was, that an interpretation had been put upon some of them which was never intended by their framers,
Mr. Humewas happy to hear that the right hon. President of the Board of Trade was not reluctant to take his share in this labour. He thought that some consolidation of these laws were necessary, because there were as many cases reversed as confirmed in the appeals made to the judges against the interpretation put upon them by the magistrates in the country. It was a toss up whether the magistrates were right or wrong. It was a libel on the body of 600 gentlemen to say that they were not able to take more than one idea into their consideration at a time. Surely they were able to consider in one Session the consolidation of the Stamp Acts, and of the laws relating to the Assessed Taxes.
Mr. George Dawsonsaid, that if the hon. member for Aberdeen would only wait till their re-assembling after the recess, he would then see that his right hon. friend the President of the Board of Trade had six bills to introduce, though he had not as yet introduced one bill in the course of the present Session.
Mr. Robinsontrusted that the consolidation of the Assessed Taxes Acts would be rendered unnecessary by a total repeal of those taxes in the next Session. They were most unjust and unequal in their operation, and it would therefore be a been to the people to repeal them. At the same time he must observe, that the hon. member for Aberdeen had not at all exaggerated the uncertainty which prevailed as to the proper interpretation of these Acts. Out of 130 cases of appeal against decisions under those Acts, it appeared from a return laid on the Table, that in only 34 cases had the original decisions been confirmed. Under such circumstances it was quite clear that there must be a great deal of injustice committed by means of these Acts. He admitted that the Treasury was generally disposed to afford any aggrieved parties relief, but that did not diminish his wish to have these taxes repealed.
The Bill was then read a third time.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he rose with some degree of shame to propose to add six riders to the present Bill. He admitted that the custom of adding riders to bills was one, in his opinion, "more honoured in the breach than in the observance." At the same time he must observe, that the clauses were of a mere formal nature, and did not at all affect the principle of the Bill.
The clauses were put and agreed to, and the Bill passed.
On putting the question on one of the clauses,
Mr. Humeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there was any intention to consolidate the Acts relating to the Post-office. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman that such a consolidation was required. In many cases regulations had been made by the Post-office which were not, and could not be, justified by any existing law.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the Acts relating to the Post-office were now under consideration, and would shortly be consolidated.
Mr. Hume: This Session?
The Chancellor of the Exchequercould give no other answer than that the subject was under consideration.

STAMP DUTIES ACTS.
On the Motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the House resolved itself into a Committee on these Acts.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that it was understood yesterday evening that he should, upon this occasion, merely submit to the House the schedule of the Duties to be continued by the new Act, and should defer the explanation of them to the next opportunity. In conformity with that understanding he would merely say that there was no intention, as an hon. Gentleman had supposed, to increase the Stamp Duties in this kingdom. There was much done in the schedule to simplify the mode of imposing- these duties, to give accommodation where accommodation could be afforded, and to diminish the general expenditure of the department. As to the propriety of having two columns in the schedule, one containing the present duties, and the other containing the alterations proposed to be made in them, he had only to say, that in many cases it would be extremely difficult, and in some impossible, to make such an arrangement. Where it was practicable he had no objection to agree to the suggestion. He then moved a Resolution repealing all the existing Stamp Acts, and enacting in their stead the duties contained in a Schedule which he handed to the Chairman.
Mr. Rice(confirmed by Mr. Hume)stated, on behalf of the people of Ireland and of Scotland, that nothing but a schedule containing the past and the present duties

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would enable practitioners in those countries to know what stamps they ought to employ on different legal instruments. Such an arrangement would save the right hon. Gentleman thousands of letters, which he would otherwise be obliged to answer.
Mr. Brighthoped that the duties on insurances, and also on small receipts, would be reduced. He further hoped that the new regulations would enable legal practitioners to act with less uncertainty than now as to the stamps which they ought to employ. The present regulations had caused many cases of intolerable hardship, and he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer would do no more than justice, while he would confer a great benefit on many persons, if he introduced a clause declaring that all stamps on executed instruments, though contrary to the regulations of the present Acts, should be held valid and legal. He hoped that the Bill would be brought in as speedily as possible after the holidays.
Mr. Robinsonalso suggested the propriety of reducing the smaller receipt stamps.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he would pay every attention in his power to the suggestions of the two last speakers. He would bring in the Bill as soon after the recess as possible. At the same time he meant to say, that 152 separate Acts of Parliament, containing a great number of minute regulations, and which were to be consolidated into twelve Acts, gave a great deal of trouble. In the new arrangement also he had attached a schedule to each Act, so that every person might find together the stamps in which he was interested and the law relating to them.
Resolution agreed to; ordered to be reported to-morrow.

TOBACCO DUTIES ACTS.
On the Motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the House resolved itself into a Committee on these Acts.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that last Session his right hon. friend near him introduced a bill to prohibit the growth of Tobacco in Ireland, but that bill not being favourably received by the House, it was withdrawn. The measure he meant to propose had for its object to regulate the growth of Tobacco in every part of the Empire, prohibiting it nowhere, but imposing on it a certain rate of duty.
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It was for a long time supposed that the growth of Tobacco was prohibited in Ireland as well as in this country, but this was an error, and as soon as it was discovered that no law prohibited the cultivation of Tobacco in Ireland, many persons engaged in that cultivation to a considerable extent. If the expense of cultivating Tobacco in Ireland was equal to the expense of cultivating it in foreign countries, the grower, it was plain, might obtain a profit equal to the high duty paid on the importation of Tobacco, subjecting the Revenue to a loss of duty on all the Tobacco consumed in Ireland. As the feeling of the House was opposed to prohibiting the growth of Tobacco in that country, and as it was fair that the Tobacco grown should pay duty as well as the Tobacco imported, nothing remained but to impose such a duty on all Tobacco grown within the Empire. It would be impossible to restrict the growth of Tobacco to Ireland, and therefore the new regulation would apply to the whole Empire. A great difficulty was felt in fixing the amount of duty, so as to protect the Revenue and not prohibit the cultivation. The expense of growing Tobacco here and abroad, as well as the expense of carriage, had all to be taken into consideration, and as the result, he had fixed on 1s. 8d. per pound as a fair tax. If he should find it otherwise, he should be obliged to renew his application to Parliament. He would then only further observe, that, if it should be found at any time expedient to reduce the duty on foreign Tobacco, no persons engaged in the cultivation of the plant at home would have any claim for compensation on account of vested rights; care had been taken to provide against such claims. The right hon. Gentleman moved, "that the Act passed in the twelfth year of Charles 2nd, prohibiting the cultivation of Tobacco, should be repealed, and that there should be levied on every pound weight of manufactured Tobacco, the growth or produce of the United Kingdom, an Excise duty of 1s. 8d., to be paid by the grower. These Resolutions to be taken into further consideration on April 26th."
Mr. Poulett Thomsonwould not address himself to the House in its then state: but he should feel it his duty to oppose this provision on the third reading. It introduced a new species of taxation, that was at once inconvenient, oppressive, and expensive, without the probability that it

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would protect the Revenue. Total prohibition was, in his opinion, better than these regulations.
Mr. Humealso would rather prohibit the growth of Tobacco altogether in this country than adopt these regulations. He thought the duty on Tobacco too high, but at the same time he thought the right hon. Gentleman should be careful, as foreign Tobacco yielded a large revenue, how he permitted the plant to be cultivated at home. The machinery connected with the new scheme would necessarily be open to many objections which deserved serious consideration.
Mr. Spring Ricedid not concur with his hon. friends who opposed this measure. A new branch of industry was opened, and if that could be prosecuted without injury to the Revenue, the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not to be condemned for sanctioning the experiment. Several persons in Ireland had already embarked large capitals in the cultivation of Tobacco, and it would be hard on them to prohibit the exercise of their industry. He concurred with the right hon. Gentleman in thinking that these persons ought to have no claims for compensation should the duty on Tobacco be reduced; but he could not give his consent to any act of absolute prohibition, and he was surprised that his hon. friends, the members for Dover and Aberdeen, should advocate that principle.
Mr. Alderman Woodhoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might and a substitute for the revenue he derived from Tobacco, and then every man might cultivate what he pleased.
Mr. Warburtonwould be satisfied if it could be shown that Tobacco could be profitably cultivated, and yield a revenue equal to that at present obtained from Tobacco. He believed, however, that it would be impossible to collect the present amount of revenue from Tobacco grown at home. The opportunities of evading the duty would be numerous, and they would all be taken advantage of.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerfound it singular that he should be of the same opinion as the hon. Members to whom he was generally opposed. He had no doubt that as to the Revenue, prohibition would have been the safer course, and as he must protect the Revenue, for that was a sine quâ non, he should be obliged to resort to prohibition if the duty were found insufficient to answer the purpose. Tobacco was
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already cultivated to a considerable extent, and therefore he was under the necessity of proposing a duty instead of trying prohibition.
Mr. Robinsonthought the same duty as was levied in the United Kingdom ought also to be levied in Canada. Tobacco could be grown there as well as in Virginia, and he did not know why the duty of 3s. 9d. per pound should be continued.
Mr. Brightwas of opinion, if the privilege were extended to Canada, that it ought also to be extended to the West Indies. The Colonies there were labouring under great privations, and would be benefitted by such an advantage. We might then defy the Americans, and furnish ourselves with an article of the finest quality.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad before argued this point with his hon. friend, and had the misfortune to differ from him. The present rate of duty gave a bonus to Tobacco grown in the Colonies sufficient to encourage its cultivation, while the duty to be imposed at home was only to secure the Revenue. It would be anything but a bonus on the cultivation of Tobacco in England.

COMPENSATION TO OFFICERS OF COURTS OF LAW.
The House resolved itself into a Committee on this Bill,
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that by a Bill to effect Legal Reform, brought in by his right hon. friend, the Secretary of State, there would be a necessity to make certain payments from the Consolidated Fund, and the object of the present measure was, to authorise the appropriation of certain surplus fees to this purpose. The Bill would make no additional charge on the Consolidated Fund. The Chancellor then submitted two Resolutions to the effect that compensation should be made out of the Consolidated Fund to Officers of the superior Courts of Justice, whose legal fees should be reduced by the operation of any Act passed this Session, and the Lords of the Treasury be authorised to purchase the interest of any person in any office or emolument in the superior Courts which may be abolished, the purchase money to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund.
Mr. Humedid not wish that any measure of reform should be stopped for want of means to compensate those who might have a vested right in abuses, but he wished to see a return of the greatest amount that

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would be required. He believed that the amount would be upwards of 100,000 l., but he hoped the Return would be laid on the Table before the Bill proceeded another stage. The whole subject required to be carefully investigated.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated, that the measure was necessary with a view to his right hon. friend's bill, but that one of its objects would be to guard against extravagant compensation. On former occasions the reforms made were not complete, and some of the high officers re-
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ceived large compensations, leaving others to be afterwards provided for out of the public purse. The bill of his right hon. friend was of an extensive nature, and before it could be carried through it was necessary that all fees should be taken away from individuals. If after making the Officers a compensation there was a surplus, the public would have the benefit; if there were not it must contribute the compensation out of other sources of supply.
Resolutions agreed to.

MINUTES.
Petitions for opening the East-India and China Trade were presented from North Shields, by the Duke of SOMERSET; and from Carlisle, by the Earl of WESTMORLAND. The Earl of VERULAM presented a Petition from Hertfordshire, for a Repeal of the Malt and Beer Taxes.
On the Motion of the same noble Lord, at the request, he said, of his noble friend, the Marquis of SALISBURY, a message was sent to the House of Commons, requesting the attendance of Messrs. DUNDAS and COMPTON, Members of that House, to give evidence before their Lordships relative to the East Retford Disfranchisement Bill; and all Papers, Documents, &c elucidatory of that Bill were ordered to be printed.
Sir A. GRANT, Sir G. CLERK, Mr. CALCRAFT, and other Members, brought up the Grand Jury Extension Bill (Ireland), the Smugglers' Families' Maintenance Bill; the Ellenborough Divorce Bill, and several private Bills, to which the House of Commons had agreed.

CHANCERY COMMISSION.
The Earl of Eldonsaid, he had a document which he was anxious to lay before their Lordships relative to Bankruptcy Commissions, but he was obliged to defer doing so till a day or two after the holidays. He would take advantage, however, of that occasion to repeat what he had before stated and what had also been stated by the Lord Chancellor, that the Chancery Commissioners had discharged their duties as commissioners gratuitously, and many of them, too, at a personal sacrifice of professional emolument. He was the more anxious to repeat this fact, as it had been confidently asserted, in a recent pamphlet, that the Chancery Commission was a most costly one, though its members, as he again repeated, had received no pecuniary reward for their labours whatever.