Sitting of 30 May 1828

MINISTERIAL CHANGES — NEW WRITS.
Mr. Plantahaving moved a new Writ for Perthshire, in the room of Sir George Murray, who had accepted the office of Secretary of State for the Colonies, in the room of Mr. Huskisson,
Mr. Hume said,—I am aware, Sir, that, strictly speaking, this House has no right to interfere with the king in the appointment of the officers to whom he wishes, to intrust the direction of his government. But I think that, in the present state of the country, as well as of our colonies, this House, and the country at large, have a right to expect some guarantee, that an efficient officer will be appointed to the very important situation of Colonial Secretary. The right hon. gentleman who lately filled that office, was commencing a system of kindness and conciliation, which was calculated to produce union and peace in our colonies; and, if a different system be now adopted, both will be banished, and discord and disunion will prevail in their stead. For my own part, I anticipate a change of our colonial policy; and I dread it the more at the period like the present, when our internal state requires that every practicable reduction should be made both at home and abroad. No man can look at the present state of the

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Canadas without perceiving, that a recurrence to the system so recently and so justly complained of, must be productive of the most disastrous consequences.—Sir, I cannot view, without alarm and distrust, the appointment of a gallant officer, however great his military skill, to an office so purely civil. I think such an appointment likely to be attended with the most alarming consequences: but, in saying this, I mean not to impugn the high military character of that gallant officer. I believe that, during the war, we never had a more able and efficient Quarter-master-general, or one who was more obedient to the commands which he received. But I cannot view his appointment without jealousy, when I recollect, that I heard him in this House declare, that our troops preferred the flogging system to the substitution of other punishment. If the gallant officer means to act upon that principle of coercion in his new appointment, which was adopted by lord Bathurst, in preference to the conciliatory course pursued by Mr. Huskisson, and so favourably received, I must say that we shall have to deplore the results. I must repeat, that it is the duty of this House, to object to the appointment of a military man under such circumstances, no matter how high his rank, or how exalted his military fame. It should be our care to render our colonies as available as possible; but this we can only do by the adoption of a government over them, which shall be looked upon, and felt, to be purely of a civil character.
Colonel Lindsay.—Sir, I find it impossible to listen to the observations made by the hon. member, without feeling desirous to say a few words in answer to the observations he has made upon the appointment of my gallant friend. And first, I will ask, whether it follows, that, because a man has borne arms, he is therefore unfit to hold a civil appointment? Is a man, because he has been brought up in the school of honour, the less fit to devote himself to the service of his country in a civil capacity. Under all the circumstances, I consider the observations of the hon. member, to say the least of them, a little premature and uncalled-for. As to the gallant officer; I know no man more competent to fill the situation. He had been long stationed as a military officer abroad; and had an opportunity of making himself acquainted with our colonies; and
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particularly in the Canadas: for he was specially deputed to that colony by government, for the purpose of making a report upon its internal institutions and regulations.
Sir George Warrender.—Sir, I can bear testimony to the high character and military talents of my gallant friend. He has, upon every occasion, discharged his military duties in a manner alike honourable to himself and advantageous to the country. But I cannot help expressing my dismay, at witnessing the frequency with which, administrations have, in succession, been broken up, by private dissentions and internal quarrels. I should look upon these changes with distrust at any period, but they are peculiarly to be dreaded when coupled with the state of the country, our foreign relations, and our colonial possessions. There are great public questions shortly to be agitated, as well in this as in the other House of Parliament, which must depend mainly upon the character and principles of the cabinet; and I hold it to be a heavy responsibility on the part of those who create disunion and distrust, where union and co-operation ought to prevail. Such a course of proceeding must of necessity create a want of confidence in this House and in the country, and without confidence, it is impossible that public business can proceed. I feel bound to acknowledge the eminent services rendered to this country by the noble duke at the head of his majesty's councils, in his military character; but I entertain apprehensions of the continuance of his civil career. I trust in God, that the military glory which he has achieved may not be eclipsed by the misfortunes of his civil appointment.
Sir A. Hope.—Sir, I am surprised at the objections urged against the appointment of military men to civil offices. The House has now before it the manner in which civil appointments have been discharged, and from that specimen it can judge of the general fitness of military men for such appointments. Sir, I maintain that, generally speaking, they have been the most competent persons to hold them. If we maintain, that a military education disqualifies a man for a civil appointment, then we have a right to say that it disqualifies him for a seat in this House; nay, for the possession of every right of a free citizen. Not far back, every gentleman thought it dishonourable

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not to have borne arms in defence of his country; and this being the case, that profession cannot be looked upon as depriving a gentleman of his rights as a citizen. Sir George Murray highly distinguished himself as Adjutant-general in the West-Indies, and also in the Canadas, at a most trying moment.
Mr. Hobhouse:—Sir, if all I have heard be correct, I think the appointment of the gallant officer in question as good as any that it is in his majesty's power to make. But I do hope and trust, we shall soon have an assurance, that the administration is permanently settled; for I think it would be better that we should act upon a system in some degree defective than that our whole policy should be in a state of continual change. All who have witnessed what has taken place in this country within the last twelve or thirteen months, must see the necessity of coming to some fixed determination with respect to the administration. Within the short period to which I have alluded, we have had no less than four Colonial Secretaries, not to allude to the other equally numerous changes of place. Under these circumstances, how can we hope for any perfect system of colonial legislation.—Sir, when we look around us, we must feel convinced, that if we are not to have one set of individuals, we ought at least to act upon one fixed and determinate system. In some of our colonies it has, for some time, been unknown who was Colonial Secretary. We scarcely sent them out the name of one individual, than they were informed that that individual had been displaced. Under such a system of change, how can any efficient colonial measure be expected? For myself, I am ready to give my humble support to any ministry formed on sound, constitutional principles, without caring from what party, or set of men, they may be chosen.
The motion was agreed to.

MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply, to which the Miscellaneous Estimates were referred,
Mr. G. Dawsonmoved, that 140,000 l.be granted to defray the civil contingencies of the year 1828.
Mr. Humecomplained, that so many items were classed under a single head, and thought it would be much better that they should be separated in the estimates,
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in order that each might be dealt with upon its own merits. There was, for instance, under the present head, such a sum as 9,896 l. for the commissioners appointed to inquire into the government at the Cape of Good Hope. As he had mentioned that vote, he could not help observing how extraordinary it was that they should go on paying money, from year to year, for commissions which had hitherto done nothing. This commission was of five years' standing, and yet the House had seen nothing from them, but a few garbled extracts from a report which did not enable the House to form any opinion on the subject which they were appointed to investigate. In his opinion, parliament ought to have the whole of these documents before them, that they might know what the opinion of the commissioners was, with respect to the mis-government of which they had heard so many complaints. He was anxious to know whether the House was to be made acquainted with the result of the commission of inquiry: not that he expected from their report any redress to the colonies for past grievances; but he should feel a satisfaction in knowing whether their former statements had been correct.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the commissioners had not yet made their final report. He remembered that, in a former case, when part of a report was submitted to the House, it was felt that it would be inconvenient to lay the whole upon the table, in consequence of some individual reflections. He hoped he should soon be able to answer the questions put to him.
Mr. Humesaid, that a million of money had been paid in the course of the last twenty years, for commissions of inquiry; in return for which, we had only received extracts and abstracts, and alt sorts of partial and garbled statements.
Mr. Dawsonobserved, that the suggestion of the hon. gentleman for separating the estimates, might form a proper subject for the finance committee, but could not be entertained in a committee like the present.
Sir J. Newportwas of opinion, that parliament had a right to the whole of the reports, and ought not to be satisfied with mere extracts.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he did not deny the right of parliament to the whole of the reports: he had mere-

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ly alluded to a particular instance, in which the right hon. baronet himself had agreed at the time.
Mr. Gordonmaintained the right of parliament to a full and complete report of the commissioners whom they had appointed.
Mr. Peelsaid, that his right hon. friend could not mean to deny the right of the House, but to except only such cases of individual difference and hostility as ought not to be revived, unless connected with some question relating to the public service.
Mr. Baringcould not concur in the distinction drawn by the right hon. gentleman, for he seemed to forget, that the whole of those questions between the colonies and their governors were questions of a personal nature. All the petitioners complained of the gross misgovernment of individuals, and it was to be remembered, that every one of our great colonies had now come forward with complaints. Unless the gallant officer now at the head of that department, could devise some better mode of governing the colonies than had hitherto been adopted, it was to be feared that great evils would arise under the present system. If it was to be understood that every thing of a personal nature was to be struck out from these reports, the House never could understand the question between the colonies and their governors. The case was different in matters of a strictly private nature, though even then he should be very jealous of leaving it to the colonial department to decide what was private and what was not.
Mr. Peelsaid, he had merely alluded to private differences, which were known to exist at the Cape.
Mr. Humewas of opinion, that when a public commission was appointed, it ought not to be in the power of ministers to defer the presentation of their report, because it contained matter of a private or a personal nature. They ought to take it for granted, that the commissioners whom they appointed would not introduce into their report any thing that was frivolous or impertinent. As he intended to take another opportunity of saying a word or two on these reports, he would leave them without further remark at present, and would proceed to notice an item of 6 000 l. which was charged for defraying the expenses incur-
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red by the commissioners appointed to carry into effect the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th articles of the treaty of Ghent, between his Majesty and the United States of America: and another item of 2,400 l. charged for defraying the expenses of the commission appointed to carry into effect the stipulations of the convention signed at St. Petersburgh, in 1 822, for the more effectual execution of the 1st article of the same treaty. The chancellor of the Exchequer had been one of those commissioners; and, if he recollected right, the commission itself had been appointed soon after the peace of 1815. As it had already cost the country between 70,000 l. and 80,000 l., he wished to know how long it was to continue, in what state of progress the negotiations were, and when the public was likely to hear of their having been brought to a termination.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it would be in the recollection of the committee, that it was arranged, under the treaty of Ghent, that commissioners should be appointed to settle the boundary line between the territories of his Britannic majesty and of the United States. It was found that such a settlement could not be made without commissioners being present on the spot; and in consequence two sets of commissions had been appointed. He was happy to state, with regard to one of them, that their labours were already terminated, and with regard to the other, that they would terminate in the course of the next year; so that, after that period, the committee would not be called upon to make any further grants upon this head. With respect to the item of 2,400 l. it was rendered necessary by the convention which had taken place at St. Petersburgh. The commissioners appointed by the two contracting parties to the treaty of Ghent had power reserved to them to defer any point disputed between them to any foreign Court which was friendly to them both. A disputed point had arisen, and the power appointed to decide it was the court of St. Petersburgh.
Mr. Humesaid, there was a charge of 4,000 l. for the commission established at London and Madrid, for carrying into effect the convention concluded at Madrid in March, 1823, for settling the claims of British and Spanish subjects. He wished to know whether that commission had made any progress?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that negotiations were going on between the two governments, the object of which was to relieve the country from this expense.
Mr. Humeproceeded to contend, that the country was paying more for its diplomatic services than any other in the world. Besides the charge of 226,000 l. on the civil list, for diplomatic services, there was a charge of 42,000 l. for extraordinary disbursements. He had expected that after the promise made upon this subject last year, some reduction would have been made. It was a charge disproportioned to the wants of the country. By whom, then, was it to be reduced? The House was unwilling, and ministers refused to reduce it; and so it would go on, he was afraid, to the end of time. He was sorry to see among the presents, 500 l. to the Brazilian Chancery, on the ratification of the treaty; and again, 1,000 l. to the Mexican Chancery on a similar occasion. Now these charges were novel in themselves, and ought to be disallowed in future. He understood that Mexico had adopted the law of the United States, by which it was made penal for public servants to receive presents from foreign courts. He therefore wished to know whether 1,000 l. had actually been paid to the Chancery of Mexico? With respect' to the presents to the Russian and French Chancery, they ought to be put an end to immediately.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that when the treaty was signed, the Mexican government thought proper to make a present of 1,000 l. and it was usual, in diplomacy, to return it: but, whether that was, or was not, consistent with the law of Mexico, he could not say.
Mr. Humesaid, that a stop should be put to this exchange of presents with foreign ministers, which he looked upon as nothing else but bribery and corruption [a laugh]. After all the pains we had been taking to make electors honest, we ought to take some pains to make the high officers of state honest too. Public functionaries ought to be prevented from receiving presents in this manner, or be compelled to pay the amount into the public treasury.
Captain O'Neillwished to know whether the hon. member would reduce those who represented the majesty of England to this wretched condition—that they should receive presents from foreign powers, and not be allowed to make them in return?
Mr. Humethought, that it would be a great saving to every country, if a stop were put to the practice of making and receiving presents.
The resolution was agreed to.
Mr. Dawsonthen moved, that 98,413 l. be granted for making good the deficiency of the fee fund in the departments of the Treasury, the offices of the Secretaries of State, and of the Privy Council.
Mr. Humesaid, he wished to make one observation on the expenditure of the colonial department, which amounted this year to 39,000 l. Among the items, he saw a charge of 1,000 l. to Mr. James Stephen, as counsel to that office. He likewise saw another item of 500 l. to the same individual as counsel to the Board of Trade. Now, he believed Mr. Stephen to be a most deserving man; but he must say that his appointment as counsel to the colonial department was a most objectionable appointment, considering the situation in which he stood with respect to the dispute between this government and the West Indian interest. It was said in the West Indies, that he had drawn up the celebrated colonial letter of Mr. Huskisson. Now, let that be as it might, ministers ought to have paid attention to the feelings of the West Indians on that subject.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he had, in his intercourse with the colonial office, known Mr. Stephen, and he believed him to be a man of honour and of perfect impartiality.
Mr. R. Gordongave full credit to the merits of Mr. Stephen; still, such was the prejudice against him, and such was the extraordinary coincidence between his writings relative to colonial affairs, and the public acts of the government at home, alluding more particularly to the late despatch of the colonial minister where whole passages were literally the same, that he verily believed no one circumstance would tend more to conciliate the colonies, than—not the removal, for he meant no reflection upon the individual—but the promotion of that gentleman to some other office. It would, he could not help thinking, be alike grateful to the learned gentleman himself, as it would undoubtedly be to the colonies.
Mr. Brighthad no desire to speak disparagingly of Mr. Stephen, although he felt the weight of prejudice which called for his removal, and knew that it would be the greatest step which the government could

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take towards the conciliation of the colonies. It had led to more unpleasant and vexatious proceedings than had ever taken place upon any other appointment.
On the resolution, that 106,958 l. be granted to defray the expense attending the confining, maintaining, and employing, convicts at home and at Bermuda, for the year 1828,
Mr. Humedoubted whether the confinement of convicts on board the hulks, as the system was now carried on, was of any service. Persons who had been thus treated were often brought two or three times before courts of justice, after they had undergone their punishment. It would be much better to send the convicts out of the country at once.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that the hon. gentleman was probably not aware of the fact, that there was a limit to the number of convicts who could be received in the colony of New South Wales; and it was, besides, very doubtful, whether those who were sent to that colony proved such good members of society as those who were forced to labour on board the hulks. It was a matter worthy of attention, that transportation had not been introduced, as a punishment, into any other country of Europe. In almost all other countries, convicts were subjected to hard labour on public works. That the result of the employment of a certain portion of the convicts in labour on board the Hulks was not expensive, a slight examination of the accounts would prove. By the return in his hand, it appeared, that there were last year on board the Hulks, four thousand and thirty healthy convicts, and two hundred and thirty-three sick, making in ail four thousand two hundred and sixty-three. The deaths in the year amounted to one hundred and sixty-six, and the total expense of their support was estimated at 75,810 l. The value of their labour during the year was estimated at 73,000 l. So that if there had been no convicts to do the work, the government must have paid that sum for labour done on public works, and the total expense incurred by keeping the convicts in this country was, therefore, something under 3,000 l. The calculation as to the value of their labour might be a high one; but still the value of it was known to be great. The giving of three-halfpence a day to every convict, proved a great inducement to labour, and generated habits of industry
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and care, which were much more likely to render them useful members of society, than any residence in New South Wales. The expense of supporting each convict was about 17 l. 15 s.; but the actual loss in not sending them out of the country was not more than 12 s. for each convict throughout the year. If means could be found at all in the colonies of employing convicts in public works, in the same manner as in Bermuda, the arrangements might be different; but at the present moment no better means could be devised than employment on board the Hulks at home.
Mr. Benettagreed, that it was better to employ the convicts in labour if possible, but he thought that labour ought to be performed in the colonies. The convicts were kept in this country at a great expense, in order to do that labour which ought to fall to the lot of the guiltless and the industrious part of the community. He recommended the government, if they were determined to promote emigration, to begin with the worthless part of the population. If any of the convicts considered transportation in any other light than a punishment, he would send them to countries less congenial with their feelings, and less favourable in climate.
Sir G. Cockburnbore testimony to the extent of labour done by the convicts in the Dock-yards. They proved the best workmen, and saved considerable sums to the government.
Mr. Benettdeprecated the system of condemning convicts for seven years to the Hulks, but whose punishment was remitted after two years' condemnation. This commutation of punishment gave employment to undeserving convicts, whilst industrious persons were left without occupation.
Lord F. L. Gowersaid, that from the little experience he had had in colonial affairs, he was impressed with the conviction, that there could not be a worse with reference to New South Wales, than to carry into execution sentences of seven years' transportation. This country could not make a worse present to that colony than a young London pickpocket.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that the hon. member was mistaken as to the remission of punishment at the end of two years. The rule was, that the superintendent, at the end of three years and a half, had the privilege of recommending eight out of every hundred convicts to the Secretary of

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State, for a remission of the remainder of their punishment. This was an inducement held out to the convicts for good behaviour; and he did not think it an unreasonable indulgence to those who had distinguished themselves by habits of industry and attention. With reference to the hon. gentleman's proposal, to transport the convicts to different colonies, surely he did not consider the enormous expense of such a system. In every colony to which convicts were sent, it would be necessary to have an establishment to receive them, with officers to superintend. It might be a question how far it would be advisable to have another penal colony; but, with regard to New South Wales, it should be remembered, that before the convicts were sent out there in sufficient number for the purposes of the colony, the expense attendant on sending provisions, & c. was enormous.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanconsidered the present system preferable to any that he had heard suggested.
Mr. Stuart Worthythought it high time, that the colony should be exempted from a practice which impeded its improvement.
The resolution was agreed to; as were also the remaining resolutions, after a desultory conversation.