Sitting of 1 May 1828

WAGES.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanpresented a petition from the Silk Weavers of Norwich, complaining of the grievances resulting from the reduced state of Wages in that city, and suggesting, as a remedy, the appointment of a committee, composed of masters and workmen, for the purpose of fixing an established rate of Wages. As far as the grievances went, he concurred in the statement of the petitioners; but with respect to the remedy which they proposed, it was his decided opinion that nothing could be more mischievous. The master manufacturers were willing to give good wages when they were able to do so; but their ability depended on the state of the trade. At present, the balance of trade between England and the continent was decidedly against us. Our imports of French silks amounted to a million and a quarter, while our exports did not exceed a million. Large portions of individuals were suffering deeply from this state of things. He trusted that the House would appoint a committee to inquire into the mode by which substantial relief might be most advantageously afforded.
Mr. Wodehousetrusted the House would pay the attention which was due to so important a subject.
Mr. Bernalsaid, that the subject deserved the serious attention of parliament. All that the petitioners required was, that the masters and men should be empowered to meet for the purpose of arranging the rate of wages.
Mr. Fylerdeprecated the application of abstract principles of policy in cases in which the general interests of whole classes

261
were concerned, and was favourable to the appointment of a committee.
Mr. W. Smith, while he was quite sensible of the grievances under which the petitioners laboured, was quite as adverse to the proposed remedy as the worthy alderman. He was convinced, that any legislative interference between the masters and the workmen would be productive of the most, injurious consequences.
Mr. C. Grantcould not bring himself to believe, when it was confessed by the petitioners, that they were receiving- from 15 s. to 20 s. a week for their labour at the loom, that they were in a state to challenge the commiseration of the House. The proposition contained virtually in the petition, was to establish by law a minimum of wages; a proposition which had been decided by committees of the House to be inadmissible in principle, impracticable in point of fact, and, if practicable, pregnant with fatal consequences to the manufacturing interests. If such a principle of legislation had been adopted for the last thirty years, would the cotton-manufactures, as well as various others have attained their present state of perfection? Under this impression, he could never consent to be a party to a project for fixing the rate of wages.
Mr. Monckthought it was the duty of parliament to interfere in all such cases of distress and oppression as that pointed out in the petition. The House had often legislated upon the principles on which the petitioners proceeded. It had passed a bill to prevent masters from paying their workmen in provisions or in kind; and a very humane bill to regulate the number of hours in the day during which children should be employed in manufactories. Parliament ought to be studious to keep the people at the highest standard of existence; and that could be effected only by high wages. Where wages were high, the revenue would be great, and the people more moral and happy. Ireland and Scotland were proofs of the truth of his position. Ireland, with a population of between six and seven millions, paid but little more of revenue than Scotland, the population of which was only two millions. This was, because, in Ireland, wages were reduced to their minimum. If the manufactures of England were to compete with those of the continent, it would be impossible for the labourers to get much higher wages than were paid in other countries.
262
But it was desirable that the price of labour should be raised as high as possible without bringing the manufactures of this country into a disadvantageous competition with those of other nations. It should be recollected, that 12 s. in England was not equal to the same sum in France. If it was impossible to raise the price of labour, the House might do what was tantamount to it; namely, cheapen the price of provisions by a moderate Corn-bill. The immense weight of taxation ought to fall more equally upon the shoulders of the different classes of the community. The taxes at present fell more heavily upon labour than upon land, or the profits of trade. This was the more severely felt, as the wages of labour were exposed to a species of competition from Ireland and Scotland. Whilst a protection was given to the agriculturists by the Corn-bill, the labourers were left unprotected, from the competition he alluded to. In this country undue favour was shown to the landed interest. The revenue of England was about fifty-two millions, and the sum raised by the land-tax was only two millions; in France the revenue was about thirty-six millions, and the sum raised by the land-tax was twelve millions. Whilst the landed interests in England were so unequally taxed, they ought not to have the protection of such a Corn-bill as that which ministers were carrying through the House.
Mr. J. Woodsaid, that the poor man's labour was his all, and that whatever concerned the price of wages was deserving of the attention of the House. He thought that a committee ought to be appointed, as its report might be useful in clearing up the delusions under which the manufacturing poor laboured, with respect to a minimum of wages. He wished that the report of the former committee might be reprinted and dispersed among the manufacturing poor, in order to dispel the erroneous views under which they laboured. He could trace much of the distress among the manufacturers to the tax upon bread, produced by the Corn-laws. If the House could not make wages high they might make bread cheap, which would amount to the same thing.
Ordered to lie on the table.

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE LAWS—RECOVERY OF PENALTIES UNDER.
Mr. D. W. Harveysaid, that in rising to make

263
the motion of which he had given notice, he could not conceal his regret at the information which he had received, of the intention of his majesty's government to oppose the proposition with which he intended to conclude, because he felt it was obligatory on him to enter on those statements which could not fail to trespass largely on the time of the House; and he still the more regretted it, as it was one of those subjects which abounded in dreary details and cold calculations, around which it was impossible to throw the charms of language, or the ornaments of eloquence. With the assurance, however, of being as brief as possible, and bearing in mind that the subject was of deep interest to the country, he should calculate on the indulgent attention of the House. He not unfrequently wished that a rule prevailed, if not by positive prescription, at least by implication, that every hon. member should be bound to make himself master of all those documents to whose production he was chiefly instrumental; for it would have the beneficial effect of diminishing useless returns, and of imparting valuable information. At present, the only labour was the motion; the result, expense to the country, and unread tons of printing. He had felt it his duty to pursue this course in regard to the returns now before them, and he flattered himself he should be able to possess the House of their more prominent contents; and to make himself the more intelligible to the learned Attorney-general; and, the better to enable him to understand his case, and to reply to it, he would in the outset advance the propositions which it was his object to inforce.—In the first place, then, he contended that the resources of the country were culpably expended in needless prosecutions; that the power of the law-officers was unjustly exercised, in the prosecution of the innocent, in the oppression of the unintentionally guilty, and in the undue punishment of those who were designedly criminal; that the cause of all this was to be traced to the absence of defined responsibility; and that the effect of the whole was, the multiplication of prosecutions, for no other purpose, and producing no other effect, than the inordinate aggrandisement of a few rapacious lawyers.—Within the last five years, the number of informations filed at the instance of the Attorney-general (he did not allude to any individual, as the law required the in-
264
formations to be filed in the name of that officer) was one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one; nine hundred and forty of these were for the recovery of penalties under the Customs-laws, and nine hundred and eleven were for the recovery of those under the Excise. The object of these one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one prosecutions was, the recovery of sums of money amounting to 1,038,709 l. This sum was distributed in equal portions in the two departments of Customs and Excise. Of nine hundred and eleven prosecutions filed at the instance of the officers of Excise, six hundred and twenty-four were alone successful; and of nine hundred and forty informations filed at the instance of the officers of the Customs, only two hundred and eight had been productive of any pecuniary advantage to the country. He begged the House to understand, that the informations had not been defeated by verdicts of juries; that it was not from any legal impediments that they had produced no pecuniary benefit to the Crown. Seven hundred and thirty-two of the informations filed at the instance of the officers of the Customs were not successful, and two hundred and eighty-seven of those filed at the instance of the Excise shared the same fate, making in all, one thousand and nineteen failures out of one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one; or, in other terms, more than one half of the cases prosecuted produced no benefit whatever to the country, though they yielded an enormous profit to the individual officers who instituted them.—He would state to the House what had been the pecuniary result of these informations. Of the 1,038,709 l., the aggregate sum sought to be recovered, the total sum received was only 137,826 l., being little more than 2s. 6d. in the pound. So much for the discretion of the public officers, who instituted those fruitless proceedings!— The cases of prosecution under the Customs-laws were just as bad. The amount sued for was 538,709 l., the sum recovered only 23,535 l. By the returns before the House it appeared, that of the principal sum, exceeding one million sterling, which it was the object of those one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one prosecutions to recover, only 157,826 l. had been received; and the House would naturally expect, that a considerable portion of it had found its way into the national treasury. Not so, however, was the

265
case. It appeared, and the House would hear the astounding fact with astonishment and indignation, that after paying 45,897 l. to that wretched tribe of locusts who paraded the country to fabricate frauds, and to entrap the unsuspecting-trader, not only was the intire residue absorbed by the rapacious grasp of those who suffer nothing in the shape of money to elude them, but the country was brought in minus, or as debtor to the Crown lawyers, in the sum of 28,414 l. In illustration of the system of the intensity with which costs were pursued, and the penalties were disregarded he would state, that it appeared that sixty-three informations had been filed to recover sums of money under 50 l., that only 378 l. had been recovered from the whole, and that the country had to pay for costs 9,577 l.; and that, on an average, no prosecution was brought into the court of Exchequer for a penalty, however insignificant, which did not inflict on the country the charge of 172 l.—And now that he was on the subject of costs, he would invite the attention of the House to a few prominent items; all of which might be lessened, or totally spared. It appeared that 20 l. on an average was paid in each cause to a person called a clerk in court. There were six of this ambiguous genus, who had little else to do than to charge and receive their fees. One of these persons died the other day, whose income amounted to 4,000 l. a year, and who had not been near his office for some years. This office, he submitted, might be usefully abolished. There was another single item. It appeared that, for the decision of twenty-two causes, three hundred and seven jurors had been sworn, making fourteen and a half jurors for each cause to be tried. There was a time when an Exchequer juror received 40 s. when a verdict was given for the Crown, but in the event of an adverse verdict, he was curtailed in the sum of 20 s. He was glad, however, that this regulation was done away with. The juries thus summoned and sworn were regularly paid, although no more than twelve men could be impanelled to try each cause. The Attorney-general might, perhaps, be able to explain this; but, to prevent mistake, he would refer to the bill on the table. In the case of the Attorney-general against Brazier, there was an item,"twenty-three jurymen paid 24 l. 3s." There were other cases in which there had been sworn
266
and paid twenty, eighteen, fifteen, thirteen, sixteen, nineteen, seventeen jurymen, and soon. This, he conceived, was a most serious hardship on the public. Indeed, he thought the fee to jurors in Crown cases might be dispensed with altogether; because every man was interested in upholding the just rights of the revenue.—There was another point to which he begged to direct the attention of the House: he alluded to the fees of barristers. In all Exchequer cases there was arrayed against the defendant an army of lawyers, who looked steadily to their fees. It might be that they took these fees from a disinterested wish to discharge their duty; but those who knew the profession must be aware, that there was no stimulus to that eloquence, of which the bar appeared to be the exclusive monopolists, equal to a fee. In several of the cases before him, he found the fees on the Crown side amount to 52 l. in each case. This he conceived a most oppressive tax on the public, and one which called for revision. One bill showed, that the law-officers of the Crown were sometimes paid, not so much for their services, as for staying away—that they were paid for many briefs which they never read, and causes. which they never attended; in a word, that they received fees, where the Crown was a party, without any labour. In all causes, however trivial, no less than four counsel were employed on the part of the Crown. In the bill before him they were stated as follows:—"The Attorney-general ten guineas, the Solicitor-general tea guineas, Mr. Clarke eight guineas, Mr. Walton. 4l. 6s. 6d." The bill of costs which he had just mentioned was in a case where the briefs of the four counsel for the Crown extended only to eight sheets; while Mr. Jervis, who was engaged on the other side, and whose brief amounted to nineteen sheets, received only five guineas.—Having touched on two material points— the clerks' fees, and the fees of counsel— he wished to say a word or two as to the expense of witnesses. When the cause of action originated at a distance, and the witnesses resided in the neighbourhood, it ought to be tried at the assizes. But then this would not suit the Crown-lawyers, who, with all their boasted disinterestedness, were peculiarly keen-scented in pursuit of their own emolument. It appeared that, in a recent case, the expenses of bringing the witnesses from Newcastle amounted to 386 l., while, had the cause

267
been tried in the county, at least 300 l. would have been spared. Now, a word or two with respect to the seventy of these prosecutions. He found that in five cases execution had been issued as follows:—In the first case, for 106 l., only 6l. was recovered by the sale of the defendant's property; in the second case, for 151 l., the amount received was eleven guineas; the third was for a sum of 325 l., where 3l. 2s. 1d. was recovered; a fourth case was an execution for 141 l., where the levy was 17 s., with a return that there were no further effects; and they had on their table a petition, in which it was stated, that an Exchequer process had been issued, and a man's property sold, for 12 l., and that the solicitor's bill amounted to 140 l. He would ask the House, whether it was fit that distress should be made the sport of merciless litigation, merely to enrich the lawyers and to degrade the law? Were not these cases which called for control? He was aware they would be told, that no proceeding could be filed by the solicitor of the Exchequer until the whole question had been laid before the board of Excise or Customs, and that all proceedings must be instituted under their direction, and proceeded in under their supervision. Now this proved one of two things—either that there was a culpable negligence on the part of the commissioners, or else the powers vested in them were insufficient; for, would any one venture to assert, that an efficient supervision was exercised in Exchequer prosecutions at present? Would any one venture to assert, that the solicitor who was unsuccessful in half the cases he undertook had a right to demand his expenses for cases of his own instituting? He had before him a case of peculiar severity and hardship: it was that of captain Bryant, who commanded a vessel in the Surinam trade. It was regulated, by the Navigation act, that a penalty of 200 l. should be incurred in every case where there appeared a variance between the manifest and the ship's cargo. It appeared, that capt. Bryant, after having taken in his cargo, was applied to to take on board forty-five casks of pepper: he found it was impossible to take the casks on board, but consented to find stowage for the pepper if it was shipped in bags. The pepper was shipped in that form, but it had been previously entered in the manifest as shipped in casks. The captain explained this to the proper authorities here; and so clear did the matter appear, that he was allowed
268
to amend his manifest and correct the mistake. After another voyage, the first thing that met him on reaching England, was a process from the Exchequer, which was brought to trial. A most respectable house in the city memorialised the Customs, and represented the case as it really was; and after several attendances the memorial was rejected, without any reason being assigned. A second application was made; and the answer made by Mr. Carr, the solicitor to the Excise, was, that no offer had been made by the defendant, but that his case would be again considered. Application succeeded application, and each was rejected with disdain. There was a feature in the proceedings of these public boards, on petitions, which called for the loudest reprobation. No innocent man could obtain redress, who did not begin with a false-hood. Guilt was the first object of their veneration; a man must disrobe himself of character to be respectable with them; penalty and innocence must go hand in hand, and he who vindicated his integrity must pay the forfeit of oppression. Captain Bryant resisted this indignity, and proceeded to trial. The case went into the Exchequer, and when the amended manifest was tendered in evidence, the chief baron refused to receive it, on the ground that the commissioners of Excise had no power to allow it to be amended, and a verdict for the full penalty of 200 l. was recorded. The captain tendered a bill of exceptions; and after having been driven about from court to court, it was at length agreed, that he should pay the costs of the whole proceeding, no penalty being demanded. The costs of this ill-used man exceeded 250 l. Many instances of similar hardship might be given; but he would forbear to press them, for the oppressive character of this court was known to every man who was not deaf to abuse, or thriving by it. He expected to be told that a salutary remedy against expenses had been recently introduced, by giving the magistrates a summary jurisdiction in these matters. He, for one, totally dissented from this impression; he regarded every measure which enlarged the power of the magistrates as a dangerous innovation on the trial by jury; and least of all did he approve it in the administration of laws so arbitrary and conflicting as those of the Customs and Excise. He would detail to the House a specimen of the working of this magisterial system, and he

269
appealed to the hon. member for Essex near him, in confirmation of his statement. He alluded to the case of William Stock, who keeps a free road-side house at Stebbing, in Essex. This honest, but ill-used, man was summoned on the afternoon of a Saturday, before a bench of clerical barons, who held their court of exchequer at Dunmow, to answer the charge of an exciseman, for tunning a parcel of beer without first entering the same in his daybook. No day was mentioned in the summons, nor indeed was the transaction —all was painful conjecture. The oath of the informer was rubric with the magisterial parsonocracy, and poor Stock, in spite of all remonstrance, and of an honest name, was fined 50 l. He paid the money, but the charge hung heavily on his heart. Restless under unmerited accusation, he resolved on the vindication of his character. He felt he was innocent; he knew his accuser was guilty of perjury; and he risked the little accumulation of an industrious life in the maintenance of his honour. Peachy, the officer, was tried at Chelmsford for the foul crime of perjury; and, in spite of the law-learning, and of the silk gowns arrayed on his side, the omnipotence of truth, aided by one intrepid counsel, prevailed, and the protegé of the clerical barons of Dunmow was declared guilty of perjury! And what had the officers of the Crown since done? Returned to honest Wm. Stock his fine and his costs? No: they had stretched their ingenuity to find a flaw, and had moved to set the verdict aside; not because the evidence against him was untrue—not for any misdirection of the judge—not because any material witness was absent—but because Stock was described in the indictment as a brewer, he being in fact a victualler; and it was to protect a miserable wretch of this sort, that the public money was spent, and the dignity and talent of the bar abused. He trusted that the memorial which had been sent to the Treasury in behalf of this much-injured man, signed by all the respectability of his neighbourhood, and speaking of him in terms of which greater men might be proud, would be successful, and that he would be reimbursed the 300 l. he had nobly spent in defence of his fame and happiness. He must observe, that the deciding on Excise-laws was not the duty of a Protestant clergyman; nay, he would go further; and say, that when such a person became perfectly competent to decide on
270
an Exchequer case, he might with advantage be appointed to the office of attorney-general, but he from that moment was rendered unfit to discharge the sacred duties of his office as a Christian teacher.—If he had clearly explained what he meant to state, he thought he had made out a case which called for a more efficient control in the management of these causes, and therefore a case for inquiry. He had avoided making use of names as much as possible. It was the system with which he found fault, and not those who acted under it. His opinion was, that these proceedings should be directed by an officer of adequate responsibility, and that such office should be open equally to all parties, in order that even-handed justice might be dealt out to all. It was far from his intention to protect any persons who might be found to have wilfully violated the law. Let such persons be visited with the necessary punishment, but let that punishment be appropriate, and not regulated by the rapacity of cost-making solicitors. Let the law be so framed that, while it visited the delinquent, it might be found the shield and protection of the unoffending—The hon. member concluded by moving, "That it is expedient, that an efficient control should be appointed over the origin and conduct of all proceedings instituted by the Crown for the recovery of penalties under the Customs and Excise Laws."
The Attorney-generalsaid, that the hon. gentleman had stated the subject and arranged his case with great clearness and ability; but as he was not acquainted with all the facts to which the hon. gentleman had alluded, he trusted the House would not impute it to any want of respect, if he should omit to notice any point in the statement they had just heard. The hon. gentleman began by taking the two branches of the Excise and the Customs, the union of which he had described as productive of no good to the revenue. He had stated that government was still subject to the payment of 12,000 l. costs over and above the amount of the penalties received. Now, he thought the House would agree with him in thinking, that 12,000 l. a year was not a very extravagant sum for the protection of a revenue amounting to 43,000,000 l. The Excise-laws embraced all points connected with the internal policy of the country, as arising out of its ordinary trade and manufactures; and the Customs-laws, all points connected

271
with its commercial policy as arising out of its imports and exports. They embraced all points connected with the revenue and the Navigation laws,—they embraced every statute, every question, every doubt, arising out of treaties, acts of parliament, and usages of commerce; and, though such was die case, the complaint of the hon. member was, that in protecting a revenue of forty-three millions, we expended 12,000 l. The hon. member asserted, that this was a large sum to expend for such an object. He differed from him, toto cœlo, upon that point. He said, that the protection of the Excise and Customs-laws was cheap indeed, if it did not cost the country more than 12,000 l. a year. The next assertion of the hon. member was, that the litigation occasioned by the prosecutions for infraction of the Revenue laws tended very much to the propagation of costs; that such prosecutions, however they might begin, were almost certain to send in a frightful amount of costs and penalties; and that they operated, in consequence, unequally, and oppressively upon the suitor. In support of this assertion, the hon. gentleman cited the number of prosecutions for the Customs and the Excise. The Customs, he said, were 940; the Excise 911; making a total of 1,851. Of these the hon. gentleman said, there were one thousand unsuccessful, and only eight hundred and fifty successful; and, therefore, he drew the inference, that there must have been one thousand prosecutions improperly instituted. If the Crown had brought these one thousand prosecutions before the court of Exchequer and had lost them, this argument would have some weight; but when the House was informed, that these prosecutions had not been either lost or abandoned, but that, on the contrary, the Crown had been successful in almost every one of them, he conceived that the hon. gentleman was totally mistaken in his conclusion. Let them look to what had occurred in the department of the Excise, in 1823. The Crown brought into the court of Exchequer two hundred and thirty-five cases: in fifty-nine cases it obtained verdicts; in three the defendants were successful; and in a hundred and seventy-three, compromises were made in court before trial. In 1824, out of the informations filed in the same court, the Crown obtained sixty verdicts, the defendants two, and a hundred and forty-seven were compromised before trial. In 1825, out
272
of two hundred and fifty informations, the Crown lost verdicts in eight cases only. In 1826, out of a hundred and twenty-seven, it lost two; and in 1827, out of hundred and sixty-three, it lost three. In the five years he had mentioned, nine hundred and ninety-nine cases had been set down for trial, and in eighteen only had there been a failure on the part of the Crown to obtain a verdict. He thought that, after what he had stated, the observations which the hon. member had made upon the improper and oppressive conduct of attornies and solicitors general should be taken cum grano salis. He thought that they ought to stand well with the House, when it appeared that, in the course of five years, they had instituted nine hundred and ninety-nine prosecutions in defence of the Excise laws, and had only failed in eighteen. He thought that this was a good per centage of success on their parts; and he could assure the House that the per centage of success, on account of the good conduct of the law officers of the Crown, was as large in the Customs as it was in the Excise. In 1823, three hundred and sixteen informations were filed; and how many of them, did the House suppose, had failed? Not one—the return was nil. That was a sort of annus mirabilis for the Attorney-general. In 1824, there were two hundred and nineteen informations filed, and only two failures: in 1825, there were a hundred and fifty-one informations, and only two failures: in 1826, there were seventy-four informations and only one failure; and in 1827, there were twenty-eight informations, but no failures at all. He hoped he had said enough to prove, that this invisible and extraordinary person, the Attorney-general, was not so odious, or so cruel in the execution of the duties of his office, as he appeared through the gangrene medium in which the hon. gentleman exhibited him. The next point to which the hon. member for Colchester had directed his attention was, the conduct of the Boards under which these prosecutions were commenced, and the amount which was recovered as penalties by their exertions.—The hon. member complained that, although penalties to the amount of upwards of one million had been sued for, the whole amount recovered was only 157,826 l. After observing, that an information had frequently counts for a penalty, because a person failed, to make

273
the proper entries; and for other penalties, because he had not sent out the proper permits; and again, perhaps, for not preparing and keeping, according to regulation, some peculiar documents, the hon. and learned gentleman proceeded to contend, that these multiplied counts for penalties were never insisted upon by the Crown, or by the Boards, except in cases of aggravated fraud and deception; and that they were always content with the most moderate penalty, when they saw any thing produced in mitigation of the offence. It was his practice, when he was clearly entitled to have a verdict, to make a compromise without bringing it to trial, unless he thought there were particular circumstances in the case, which rendered it advisable, for the public interest, to have it regularly discussed in the court of Exchequer. Proceeding in his speech, the hon. member said, "Now you have got 157,000 l. odd into your till, what becomes of it? Why, you give away 45,897 l. of it to informers." He would ask, was it his fault, or the fault of any of the Boards, that such a sum should be paid to informers? The whole of the acts upon which these penalties were recoverable, recognised the existence and reward of informers. The principle of proceeding upon informations of this description was as old as the times of queen Anne, and had been recognised by every act passed by the legislature since that period. The revenue could not be protected without them. Few, if any, of the frauds upon its regulations could reach the knowledge of the Crown unless by their assistance; and he believed most sincerely, that if they were to come to a determination of giving informers nil in point of reward, they would be nil in point of information.—The hon. member who brought the subject before the House, possessed, he felt bound to admit, very great ingenuity; but all his ingenuity had failed him when he attempted to point out any remedy for that which he considered an evil. The hon. member had talked of tribunals; but he would fearlessly challenge the hon. member to point out any tribunal, of any kind, so well adapted as the court of Exchequer to the trial of offences of this description, or to name any kind of court of law, which, in its administration of justice upon cases connected with the revenue, could give more satisfaction to the country. The hon. gentleman had mentioned several
274
cases in which the costs had been very large, although the penalties sought to be recovered were very small. Those cases had neither dates nor names, and the hon. gentleman must, therefore, be left to enjoy them in the solitude of his own reflection. For his part, he knew nothing of them, but he did recollect very lately, that a person was sued for penalties, small indeed in amount, although the costs would undoubtedly be very large. It happened, however, to be a case which involved all the acts of parliament with respect to the duties upon glass; and, therefore, although the hon. gentleman might say that the end was disproportioned to the means, in the cases he had alluded to, he was prepared to contend, that the object to be answered was one which perfectly justified the course adopted by the Crown; and that it was one of those cases which required and demanded a public investigation. The hon. member had complained of the fees which, under the present system, were paid to the clerks in court. On this head he should be very short, as those fees would come under the consideration of a commission recently appointed. Thus much, however, he would say, that the hon. member was quite mistaken in supposing that their situations were sinecures. It had recently fallen to his lot to name an individual to succeed to one of these vacant clerkships; and he had refused to name a gentleman, who was strongly recommended to him, until he had given him his word that he would take notes of every case affecting the revenue which came into the court, and would thus collect, for the use of the barons, a mass of information which could not fail to be highly serviceable to them. He therefore contended that the remuneration which the clerks in court received was not greater than that to which they were entitled, by the talent and labour which they were obliged to bring to the discharge of their different duties.—The hon. member appeared to imagine, that in consequence of these prosecutions the offices of attorney and solicitor general were too largely paid by the miserable fees which they received for conducting them. He would assure the House, that the law-officer of the Crown who bestowed his time in supporting cases in the Exchequer, was a loser and not a gainer by it. He had been days and weeks confined to the court of Exchequer, to the Joss of the far more lucrative

275
practice, which, if he had not been kept there, he should have had in the House of Lords. The hon. and learned gentleman then alluded to the case of captain Bryant, and observed, that he had been prosecuted for a breach of some regulations upon the subject of his manifest. Of the case, however, he knew nothing; but he did know that these regulations with regard to manifests were of great importance, as gross frauds were attempted to be practised by persons who made false entries. In a recent case, a very valuable picture had been discovered between two marble slabs, although the manifest contained no entry of any thing but a slab of marble.—He next adverted to the case of Stock, and which had the advantage of coming to them supported by the hon. member for Essex, to whom, without mixing him up with this man or that, he would say that every thing belonged, which ought to belong to a man of honour, and character. But what was the case? There was an act in existence, whereby offenders against the Revenue laws, might, at a great saving of expense to individuals, be taken before a local tribunal of magistrates, and there have their cases decided. It happened that, in the case of Stock, this tribunal sat upon a Saturday night, and that it was called upon to receive an information as to whether he had or had not signed papers, which he should have put, by a given time, into the Excise-office. It was very important that notice should be given by every manufacturer to the Excise, in order that some officer of it might attend to calculate the duties. The hon. member had spoken as if the question in the case had been a question as to whether it was tenor eleven o'clock; but the real fact was, that the man gave no notice, and that the magistrates, who turned out to be the clerical barons, convicted him for not giving it. The party convicted proceeded against the witnesses for perjury, and had obtained a verdict against them at the assizes for Chelmsford. It was not the fault of the Attorney-general if the witnesses committed perjury, or if the magistrates erroneously convicted Stocks on perjured evidence. Since that time application had been made to the court of King's-bench to set aside the conviction; and if this were the whole of the case, he thought that no great grievance had been proved against the present system. The local jurisdiction given to magistrates in these
276
cases was, he contended, a great boon to the public, by the saving of expense which it produced in the attendance of witnesses from the remotest corners of the kingdom, at Westminster. This alteration was produced chiefly through the influence of the present Master of the Mint, to whom on that account the country was much obliged. For his own part he was convinced that the alteration was a large, substantial, and merciful mitigation of the laws. During the last Term there was only one Custom prosecution; and he believed that three parts out of four of the offences against the Excise were now disposed of by the local tribunals. In conclusion, he stated that he did not know what substitute the hon. member intended to propose for the system which he wished to upset. The hon. member seemed anxious to launch the House into the boundless ocean of legislation, to plunge it into the mare magnum of doubt and difficulty; but he trusted that the House would not be precipitately led away by a flourish of words, with the idea that it was possible to devise a petty system for the protection of a revenue of 43,000,000 l.
Mr. Westernadmitted that the proposition of the hon. member for Colchester was too general, and that he had not pointed out any particular remedy for the grievances of which he complained. He was of opinion that a more efficient control than that which existed at present should be imposed upon the Boards of Customs and Excise. With reference to the case of Mr. Stock, that individual had been convicted summarily under a mistake of the magistrates; who, he believed, had become sensible of their error. The evidence upon which he had been convicted was the false testimony of an Excise officer; and the individual did not himself know the charge against him. The magistrates were desirous of mitigating the penalty of 50 l., and urged Stock to apply: but he declined, and prosecuted the excise officer for perjury, and convicted him. He hoped that this case would be taken into consideration in the proper quarter. He should support the motion of the hon. member for Colchester; and he agreed with him, that more efficient control should be exercised over the proceedings of the Crown-officers, in suing for penalties under the Excise laws.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that if he could sec any prospect

277
of improving the system of the law in this particular, he would be the last to throw any obstacles in the way. It was impossible not to see the hardship of the case mentioned by the hon. gentleman, and which deserved consideration. But, admitting the facts to be as stated, it appeared not to be the result of a defect in the law, still less in those who administered the law. It was one of those unfortunate cases, which must occur in the most perfect system, arising from the perjury of an individual, bringing misery upon the innocent, for which there was no remedy. The hon. member had stated, that the individual had no previous knowledge of the crime with which he was charged. This was scarcely possible, as he must have had the information. He should give his best consideration to the case, with the view of ascertaining what could be done. If the facts were satisfactorily proved, there would be no indisposition on the part of the Treasury to interfere, as they had done in other cases. The hon. member for Essex had said, that a more efficient control should be exerted over the proceedings of the Crown-officers in Exchequer prosecutions. But the Revenue Boards did exercise great care, and never commenced a prosecution without inquiry, nor until they had ample proof of the guilt of the parties. As a proof of this, he would state, that out of nine hundred and eighty-four informations exhibited last year, there had been nine hundred and seventy-one convictions. It seemed to be the object of the hon. mover to get rid of the tribunals before which these suits were brought. He had objected to the court of Exchequer, on account of the expense of bringing up witnesses. This was the old accusation; and now, when summary conviction was established by law to remedy that evil, he said that it disposed of the subject's property without trial by jury. The jurisdiction given to magistrates had generally afforded great relief; and in all cases there was an appeal to the quarter sessions.
Mr. Brightsaid, he was surprised that the country had not risen up against the system of Revenue-laws. The new Consolidated law had not got rid of the obnoxious penalties, but had in a few lines re-enacted them. He should not be constent with any consolidated Revenue-law that did not specify the pains and penalties. The returns which had been so trium-
278
phantly appealed to, did not include the remonstrances and appeals to the authorities. If free trade was to be calculated on, this system of law must be altered. He objected to the local jurisdiction which gave to magistrates the power of convicting without appeal. He thought that a great reform in the Excise laws was requisite, and that a complete consolidation of them should take place.
Mr. Herriessaid, he was astonished that the hon. member should not have been aware that the first and chief Consolidation-law had already passed, and contained a material correction of the former acts. By the former law, some inconvenience arose from the local jurisdiction; by the subsequent law, in all cases of prosecution before magistrates, there was an appeal to the quarter-sessions. The right hon. gentleman adverted to the prevalent error, that jurors received a larger remuneration if they found a verdict for the Crown than for another party, and stated that, from the best information he could obtain, such a practice never had existed.
Mr. W. Smithrose amidst cries of "question," He said, there had been some cases within his knowledge of such extravagant injustice under the Excise laws, that he had had some intention of bringing them before this House. Then the expenses of these prosecutions: this was a subject which had not received an answer from the other side [The hon. member was here stopped by cries of "question."]
The House then divided. For the motion 39; against it 146. Majority against the motion 107.

List of the Minority.

Baring, A.

Lennard, S. B.

Baring, F.

Lumley, S.

Baring, sir T.

Marjoribanks, S.

Bentinck, lord G.

Milbank, R.

Bernal, R.

Marshall, W.

Birch, J.

Monck, J. B.

Craddock, col.

Martin, J.

Caulfield, hon. H.

Maxwell, J.

Dawson, A.

Maberly, colonel

Easthope, J.

Palmer, C. F.

Euston, lord

Russell, lord W.

Fergusson, sir R.

Rickford, W.

Grosvenor, hon. H.

Smith, W.

Hume, J.

Sykes, D.

Heneage, G. F.

Stuart, V.

Heathcote, R. E.

Wilson, sir R.

Howick, lord

Wood, J.

Jordan, Robt.

Western, C. C.

279

Warburton, H.

TELLERS.

Wrottesley, sir J.

Harvey, D. W.

Waithman, alderman

Bright, H.

PROTESTS AGAINST THE CORPORATION AND TEST ACTS REPEAL BILL.
The following Protests were entered on the Journals against the third reading of this bill.
"Dissentient: 1.—Because, if it is expedient that so much of the acts recited in the bill as imposes the necessity of receiving the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper, as a test that the party receiving it is a member of the Established Church, should be repealed, some effectual provision ought to have been made by this bill, for the purpose of establishing that the persons who are to be placed in office, or employments, are Protestants, and mem
230
bers of the Established Church, to the intent to preserve the constitution, as it has been formed by the union of the Established Church with the State. And because the bill not only makes no such provision, but creates only the necessity of making a Declaration, which may be made by persons not even Protestants, and by persons denying some of the fundamental doctrines of Christianity, as maintained in the Established Church, as to which Church it has been declared by law, at the time of the Union with Scotland, not only that the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government, thereof, but that the true Protestant religion, professed and established in the Church of England, should be effectually and unalterably secured.
2. "Because, it having been alleged in the debates upon this bill, referring to the petitions which have been presented to the House, that persons cannot, with due regard to liberty of conscience, be precluded from holding offices in the State on account of their religious persuasions, we think it necessary to declare, that although every person ought to be at liberty to worship God according as his conscience may dictate, doing no injury to the State, we cannot admit that to the enjoyment of that liberty, rightly understood, it is necessary that those persons, who only profess that they will not, in the exercise of any power, authority, or influence, which they may possess by virtue of office, injure, weaken, or disturb the Church, should be considered as equally eligible to offices in the state as those who are members of the Church, connected and united with the state. It being, moreover, very possible that acts done by persons making such professions, which acts may disturb, weaken, or injure the Established Church, may be acts which such persons might deem it their bounden duty to have done if they had not been placed in office, and which, therefore, it might be unreasonable to consider as acts done by virtue of their office.
3."Because we think that, whilst the state ought to secure to all, who do not disturb the public peace, complete liberty of conscience, it is perfectly consistent with such duty of the state to determine by what persons, subjects of it, the offices of state should be executed.
4."Because it seems to us much more probable that peace, which, by the laws in being respecting the Church Establish-

231
ment, and the toleration of those who dissent from it, has so long been enjoyed in this realm, notwithstanding all differences as to religious persuasions, should continue undisturbed, if this bill had been rejected, than it is that it should continue to be enjoyed after this bill is passed into a law.
5. "Because we think that the Bills of Indemnity, which have been for some time annually passed, whilst they from time to time confirmed the policy of having some test as to the religious opinions of those who are to hold civil offices, did, at the same time, sufficiently relieve those who dissented from the Established Church; and though it seems to have been thought and assumed, in debate, that, if this bill passed into a law, annual Bills of Indemnity would no longer be necessary, we conceive that experience will prove that such opinion is founded in error. (Signed)
"ERNEST.
ELDON.
NEWCASTLE.
WINCHILSEA and NOTTINGHAM.
WALSINGHAM.
KENYON.
FAVERSHAM.
BROWNLOW.
MANSFIELD.
FALMOUTH."
"Dissentient: 1. Because, by the law of the land, and especially by the solemn contracts made on the Union of England and Scotland, and on the Union of Great Britain and Ireland, the United Church of England and Ireland, and the Church of Scotland as established by law, are parts of the constitution of the government of the United Kingdom; and it is declared that the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government, of the United Church of England and Ireland, as so established, shall be and shall remain in full force for ever; and the continuance and preservation of the said United Church, as the Established Church of England and Ireland, shall be deemed and taken to be a fundamental part of the Union of Great Britain and Ireland.
2."Because the Sovereign on the throne of the United Kingdom is, by law, required to be a member of such Established Church, and to do all in his power to maintain that Church, as well as the Church of Scotland, and the ministers of both of those Churches, in all their rights and privileges.
3,"Because it has a direct tendency
232
to the subversion of the Established Church of England and Ireland, and to compel the sovereign on the throne to adopt measures inconsistent with the safety of that Church, inasmuch as the object of this bill is to give increased political powers in the State to persons hostile to the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government of the said Church, as now by law established; and the experience of all times has shown that no institution of government can long subsist in any state, unless supported by the predominance of political power vested in those who are friendly to that institution; and this has been fully proved in this country by long experience, and particularly in the reign of king Charles 1st, when the predominance of political power in the two Houses of Parliament of England having been obtained by persons hostile to the Church of England, as then established by law, the king was compelled, by the influence of that power, in breach of his Coronation Oath, to give his royal assent to a bill intituled 'An Act for disenabling all persons in Holy Orders, to exercise any temporal authority;' and whereby it was enacted, that no Archbishop or Bishop, or other person, who then was, or thereafter should be, in Holy Orders, should have any seat or place, suffrage or voice, or use or execute any power or authority in the Parliaments of the realm, nor should be of the Privy Council of his Majesty, his heirs or successors, or Justice of the Peace, of Oyer or Terminer, or Gaol Delivery; or execute any temporal authority by virtue of any commission, but should be wholly disabled and be incapable to have, receive, use, or execute, any of the said offices, places, powers, authorities, and things aforesaid. And the persons hostile to the said Established Church of England, who framed the said act, and compelled the king to give his assent thereto, afterwards assuming to themselves the whole powers of the State, legislative and executive, by the appellation of the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, did by their ordinance, to which they attributed the force and effect of law, declare and resolve—'That the then Church Government, by Archbishops, Bishops, their Chancellors, Commissaries, Deans, Deans and Chapters, Archdeacons, and other Ecclesiastical officers depending upon the Hierarchy, was an evil, and justly offensive and burthensome to the kingdom, a great impediment

233
to reformation and growth of religion, and very prejudicial to the State and Government of the kingdom; and that therefore they were resolved that the same should be taken away, and that such a Government should be settled in the Church as might be most agreeable to God's Holy Word, and most apt to procure and preserve the peace of the Church at home, and nearer agreement with the Church of Scotland; the Lords and Commons then sitting as in Parliament, and who then assumed sovereign authority, being then in alliance with the members of the Church of Scotland, who had invaded England with a hostile army. And the persons so assuming the sovereign authority did afterwards, in pursuance of such ordinance, make a further ordinance in the year 1646, abolishing the name and title of Archbishops and Bishops, and vesting the rights and properties of the Archbishops and Bishops of the Church of England in trustees, subject to such trusts and confidence as the persons then pretending to be the two Houses of Parliament should appoint. And the same persons, by various ordinances, assumed and exercised the power of directing the public worship in all churches and chapels according to forms established by them; and of forbidding all persons to preach, except ministers ordained according to their ordinances, and except persons allowed by themselves under the denomination of the two Houses of Parliament. And afterwards certain persons, styling themselves the Commons of England, and assuming to themselves, exclusive of the Peers of the realm, powers which, by the ancient law of the realm, were vested only in the King, Lords, and Commons, in Parliament assembled, did proceed to ordain that the office of a King in this nation should not thenceforth reside in one person, and that the nation should be governed by its representatives, or national meetings in council, in the way of a Commonwealth; and did further declare that the House of Lords was useless and dangerous to the people of England, and ordained that such House should be abolished. And afterwards other persons, differing in religious opinions from those who had thus assumed the whole powers of the State, but adverse also to the Church of England, as before by law established, having obtained political power, superior to the political power before enjoyed by
234
those who had before assumed all the powers of the state, did create a new form of government, placing at the head thereof a Lord Protector; and thus, from time to time, according to the prevalence of political power in the hands of different persons, of different religious opinion, the country was involved in confusion for many years. Such transactions proving most clearly that the peace of this country importantly depends on the existence of superior political power in those who are friendly to the Church established by law, and that giving political power to those whose religious opinions are hostile to the Established Church must tend to endanger that establishment and the peace of the realm, and finally may overthrow the ancient form of government now happily established by law.
4."That the laws sought to be repealed were expressly made to avoid similar distractions in the State, by excluding from, certain offices, giving political power, persons holding religious opinions hostile to the Established Church; and such laws were so made for the protection of such Church, and consequent preservation of the public peace, and were the result of the experience of those who framed those laws of the danger of intrusting political power to persons hostile to the Established, Church.
5."Because political power is the creature of political institutions; and. when in any country political institutions, forming the government of the country, have been established, every alteration in those institutions departing in principle from the institutions before adopted, and tending to change the balance of political power in the State, is so far a revolution in the government of the State, and may, in pro portion to the extent of the change made, tend to produce further revolution in the State; and therefore changes which may appear not to be in themselves of considerable importance may, by their effects, produce such further changes as may finally overthrow the whole constitution of the State.
6. "Because the perpetual endurance of the United Church of Great Britain and Ireland being, by solemn contracts, a fundamental law of the State, those who, on the ground of religious opinions, refuse to submit to the laws made for the preservation of that Church, might, with equal; propriety, allege religious opinions as war-

235
ranting them in refusing to acknowledge the authority by which the perpetual endurance of that Church has been made a fundamental law of the State, or in refusing to acknowledge the title of the King on the throne, and of a parliament convened by him, on the ground of hereditary right to the throne, which they may suppose to be vested in the heir of the body of king James the First.
7."Because, as long as religious or political opinions influence the minds of men, so as to render them hostile to any of the existing establishments of the State, such men cannot be truly loyal subjects of that State to the establishments of which they are so hostile; and cannot, therefore, be safely trusted with political power, by means of which they may disturb the tranquillity of the State, and endeavour to overturn any of its political institutions placed by the law of the State under the protection and control of its government.
8."Because congregations of persons dissenting from the Established Church, but professing to be of some particular denomination of Christians, form, by their union under such denomination, a body which is, in effect, a corporation, but a corporation not regulated by law, nor, as a body, under the control of the law, and yet possessing, in a great degree, the influence and power of a corporation authorised and regulated by law, and capable of acting with a power which does not belong to individuals, or even to the same number of persons, not so assembled; and the union of many such bodies, how ever differing from each other in matters of faith or discipline, may form a power in the State, highly dangerous not only to the Established Church, but also to the general peace and good order of the State; especially if urged by religious zeal to de sire any change in the Established religion, or in the doctrines or discipline thereof, which may tend to the overthrow of the Established government, and breach of the solemn contracts entered into on the Union of England and Scotland, and the Union of Great Britain and Ireland; con tracts which every loyal subject of the Crown is bound to maintain, and which the Prince on the throne cannot consent to violate without a breach of his Coronation oath.
(Signed) "REDESDALE,
"KENYON."
List of the Majority, and also of the Minority, on the third reading of the Corporation and Test Acts Repeal Bill, April 23.

MAJORITY.

Alvanley

Lauderdale

Arbuthnot

Leinster

Auckland

Limerick

Bathurst

Mendip (Clifden)

Boyle (Cork)

Manners

Braybrooke

Maryborough

Bristol

Melros (Binning)

Calthorpe

Melville

Camden

Monteagle (Sligo)

Chichester

Montford

Carlisle

Morley

Carnarvon

Napier

Carrington

Northumberland

Cleveland

Penshurst (Strangford)

Charlemont

Ranfurly (Northland)

Clarendon

Ross (Glasgow)

Clifton (Darnley)

Rosebery

Cowper

Rosslyn

Dacre

Salisbury

Dawnay (Downe)

St. Vincent

Ducie

Saye and Sele

De Lawarr

Selsey

Dufferin

Somerset

Dudley

Spencer

Dundas

Stuart of Rothesay

Durham

Stradbroke

Ellenborough

Suffolk

Essex

Suffield

Farnborough

Sussex

Fitzgibbon. (Clare)

Sundridge (Argyll)

Fitzwilliam

Tankerville

Gloucester

Thomond

Goderich

Teynham

Gordon (Aberdeen)

Thanet

Gosford

Wellington

Grosvenor

Wallace

Gower

Wharncliffe

Grantham

Winchester

Grey

Wilton

Grafton

Yarborough

Hereford

Bishops—York

Harrowby

Chichester

Heytesbury

Chester

Hill

Gloucester

Holland

Lincoln

Howard de Walden

Litchfield

Jersey

Llandaff

Kerr (Lothian)

London

King

Ossory

Lansdowne

St. David's.

PROXIES.—CONTENT.

Abercromby

Bedford

Albemarle

Berwick

Anson

Breadalbane

Ashburnham

Buckinghamshire

Bayning

Buckingham

Barham

Bute

Bagot

Clarence

Belmore

Crewe

237

Caledon

Oxford

Derby

Plunket

Devonshire

Ponsonby (Besborough)

De Dunstanville

Duncan

Portland

Erskine

Scarborough

Foley

Scarsdale

Fortescue

Seaford

Granville

Somerhill (Clanricarde)

Grenville

Hillsborough

Sondes

Howard of Effingham

Stafford

Hopetoun and Niddry

St. Helen's

Hutchinson (Donoughmore)

Verulam

Waldegrave

Kingston

Archb.—Canterbury

Lynedoch

Bishops—Bangor Hereford

Minto

Mount Edgecombe

MINORITY.

Abingdon

Mansfield

Arden

Mountcashel

Beauchamp

Newcastle

Bexley

Plymouth

Bolton

Pomfret

Bradford

Redesdale

Churchill

Romney

Clanbrassil (Roden)

Rolle

Colchester

Shaftesbury

Colville

Sheffield

Cumberland

Sinclair

Dorset

Skelmersdale

Eldon

Silchester (Longford)

Feversham

Willoughby de Broke

Grantley

Winchilsea

Guilford

Bishops, Bath & Wells

Hay (Kinnoul)

Bristol

Harewood

Durham

Howe

Ely

Kenyon

St. Asaph

Malmesbury

Salisbury

PROXEIS.—NOT CONTENT.

Farnham

Tenterden

Graham (Montrose)

Wigan (Balcarras)

Northampton

Wodehouse

Rivers

Bishops, Exeter Peterborough

Stowell

WOOL TRADE.
The Duke of Richmondrose to postpone his motion for referring the Petitions of the Wool-growers to a Committee of Inquiry, until Monday.
The Earl of Harewoodpresented a petition from several merchants of London, who were not importers of foreign wool, but who prayed that no further duty might be levied on the importation of foreign wool.
The petition having been read,
The Earl of Malmesburysaid, he was not surprised that the petitioners prayed that there might be no increase of duty on
238
foreign wool imported, because such increase would be injurious to their interests. But the petitioners went further, and prayed their lordships not to go into a committee of inquiry, which their lordships had been requested to do by thousands of petitions, stating a strong case of distress, Was that the part of candid men? Could such conduct fail to convey an idea, that the present petitioners were afraid of inquiry?
The Earl of Harewooddisclaimed, on the part of the petitioners, any wish, in asking their lordships not to go into an inquiry, to prevent the complaints of the opposite petitioners being heard. They had other reasons for their petition. Their lordships were, he was afraid, not aware of the excessive mischief which was done to the manufacturer and merchant by-instituting an inquiry into all the minute details of their business. By that means many things were made known which were injurious to them. The simple meaning of the petition which he had presented was this:—after the lapse of a considerable time, the woollen manufactures were gradually reviving, under a duty of one penny upon the importation of foreign wool. The dismay talked of by the petitioners was the dismay which would be introduced into large manufacturing districts by the agitation of the subject; and they prayed their lordships not to go into a committee, in order to place an additional tax on foreign wool, as the experiment had been tried and had failed. The petitioners therefore simply said, that as the experiment had been tried and failed, they deprecated going into a committee of inquiry, where examinations would be taken and reported all over the world, throwing dismay into the minds of those engaged in the woollen trade, at the very moment when that trade was reviving.
The Earl of Malmesburythought, that the representations of these petitioners would not justify their lordships in withholding that fair inquiry to which the agriculturists were entitled.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, he would give his consent to a committee of inquiry, on the very grounds stated by the noble lord—namely, on purpose to enter into a fair inquiry of the cause of depression of the wool-growers, but by no means with the intention of following that inquiry up by laying a duty on the imported article. His own opinion was, that the causes of

239
the depression were not to be removed by an additional duty.
The Marquis of Salisburysaid, that the trade had decreased since the low duty. The alteration, therefore, had injured the manufacturers, decreased the revenue, and ruined the agriculturists. If ever a primâ facie case for inquiry was made out, this was that case.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, that as it was now declared, that ministers would not consent to any augmentation of duty, it would be losing time to go into a committee. Noble lords were mistaken, if they supposed inquiries of that kind did no I harm. Many of their lordships lived at a great distance from the manufacturing districts, and had no idea of the distress and alarm occasioned by a mention even of altering the duty.
The Duke of Richmondsaid, he could conceive that the inquiry might be beneficial, although it led to levying no additional duty. He would suppose, as there were large tracts of poor land in this country, on which the short-woolled sheep were now reared, that it should be made out before the committee, that the price of short wool could not pay them; they might be induced to cultivate sheep with long wool, and of the market for that they had a monopoly. The wool-growers came to them in a respectful manner; and were they to be turned away without inquiry? He called upon their lordships to allow the agriculturists to prove their case; and if it should turn out not to be a strong one, he would pledge himself to vote against it.
Ordered to lie on the table.

STATE OF THE POPULATION OF IRELAND.
The Earl of Darnleythen rose to bring forward the motion, of which he had given notice, for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the State of the Distressed Population of Ireland. He was aware that he could command but little attention from their lordships, even on a subject of the greatest importance; but he felt, on the present occasion, that he laboured under much greater difficulties than usual, and nothing short of a sense of paramount duty, could induce him to trespass on their lordships' attention. Among the difficulties under which he laboured was that of bringing the leading features of the subject under their lordships' notice without fatiguing them with
240
extraneous matter. He had other disadvantages also to contend against; one of which was, the load of prejudices which were engendered by the abuses of the Poor-laws in this country, which were carried to such an excess, that the very mention of the system was likely to expose him to more warmth than the occasion required. He deprecated as anxiously as any man any extension of that reprobated system; and he hoped he should be able to appease the anger of his noble friend (the earl of Limerick) when he stated, that it was far from his intention to recommend the English system of Poor-laws, as applied here at present, or even as founded on the original intention of the statute of Elizabeth. He was aware that by that statute, two objects were contemplated; one of which was to find employment for those poor persons who were able to work, but could not otherwise obtain it than by applying to the parish. He was of opinion, that if any thing like this proposition was extended to Ireland, the consequence would be, that in the present unfortunate state of that country, the whole of the rental would be insufficient to meet that object. With that opinion, he had no idea of recommending a system of poor-laws, by which any assessment could be made to enable the parishes to set to work the people who might be in want of subsistence. But there was another object contemplated by the statute of Elizabeth, namely, the relief of the "lame, impotent, old, and blind, and such others being poor and not being able to work." If, in the course of his address, he was able to prove, that the same description of people in Ireland were in great numbers in a state of utter destitution; that cases occurred daily, in which life even was sacrificed for want of an established provision for the poor, he hoped their lordships would agree with him, that it was incumbent upon them to institute some inquiry into this important subject.—He had been told, and with some degree of truth, that the situation of these persons had been already under inquiry before committees of both Houses of parliament. He was ready to admit this; for it was impossible that any committee could inquire into the state of Ireland, without having their attention called to the destitute and miserable condition of the peasantry; but hitherto it had only formed a subject of inquiry incidentally. It had not come before the com-

241
mittees eo intuitu, but merely as a branch of the general investigation in which they were engaged. It appeared to him, that the humanity of the public in this country had been too much directed to another class of sufferers! What speeches had not their lordships heard there and elsewhere! What volumes had been circulated on the misery of the slave-population of the West Indies! These friends of humanity were, indeed, so urgent with the claims of the negroes, that they overlooked the injustice likely to accrue to private property, and he was satisfied, that their premature endeavours to meliorate the condition of the slaves, instead of producing any beneficial result, would be the source of the greatest possible misfortunes to all the parties interested in that question.—He would therefore beg leave to call the attention of their lordships to the distresses of a numerous class of persons much nearer home, and much dearer to this country than any slave population abroad. God forbid he should undervalue the blessings of liberty! The Irish peasantry were certainly in possession of that inestimable blessing; but otherwise they were in a worse situation than the slave in the West Indies. Their wretchedness was more squalid; their houses, their clothes, and their food, were worse than; those of any population on the surface of the globe. No doubt this wretched people had the liberty of propagating their race. They had the liberty also of locomotion, of which they availed themselves to a pretty large extent. Now, he wished particularly to draw noble lords attention to this part of the subject. A noble earl (Limerick) had told them, that he drew all his resources from Ireland. Now his (lord Darnley's) means were drawn nearly equally from the two countries; but he spoke advisedly, when he protested, that unless there was a great amelioration in the condition of the Irish population, if the wish lately uttered by a gallant admiral (sir J. Yorke) were accomplished, that Ireland were submerged, in the ocean, he should be in a much better situation, in reference; to his income, than he should be if measures of improvement were not taken with regard to that country.—When he was drawn aside to this digression, he was stating that the liberty of locomotion remained to the Irish peasantry; and they exercised it daily more and more, to the injury of the people of this country. He was anxious to have ascertained the number
242
of passengers brought to England from Ireland during the last three years. He had found, however, that it was almost impossible to obtain such a return. But their lordships would, no doubt, take it for granted, that there was an excessive influx of Irish into this country, by means of the steam-vessels. If the emigration to this country rapidly increased as he feared it would, unless prevented, the inevitable consequence would be, the amalgamation of the misery of the two countries. The Irish peasantry would find their way to England, and live on the English poor-rates, and the consequence would be, that they would undersell the English peasant in his only commodity—labour, in his own market, and by lowering the rate of wages, reduce him to the same state of misery that prevailed through Ireland. In the report of the emigration committee, this opinion was stated very strongly; and it was supported by the evidence taken before the committee of inquiry into the state of Ireland. It was satisfactorily shewn by that report, that no other result could ensue from the continuation of the present state of things, but the permanent deterioration of the price of English and Scotch labour: that the daily increased communication between the two shores could not be viewed without alarm: that the numbers removing from Ireland were constantly on the increase, and that a great change must follow in the character of the labouring classes in this country: that it was clear, that two such different states could not co-exist in the two countries, and that one of two results was unavoidable; either the condition of the Irish peasantry must be raised to that of the English, or the condition of the English peasantry must be depressed to that of the Irish. The same opinion had been expressed in various publications; one of which he held in his hand. He alluded to the "Letters on the State of Ireland," by Dr. Elmore, who had attempted to establish a manufactory in that country; but, for want of security, was obliged to withdraw his capital. This gentleman had done him the honour to address the letters to him, and in so doing, had paid him a compliment he was conscious he did not deserve. Though he did not agree in some of the propositions in these letters, he recommended the pamphlet to the attention of their lordships, as containing a great deal of useful information. The noble earl read the following passage:—

243
"The irresistible tide of emigration from Ireland towards these countries has already set in, and has been materially facilitated by steam navigation, so much so that the credulity of the most ignorant will soon be convinced that six or seven millions of people, with all their natural powers and great energies of mind, will not much longer suffer without making an effort to find better quarters. Every year it is ascertained, that increasing thousands are coming over, and in a short time it is to be apprehended that, driven by want, and aided as they now are by the subscriptions of the richer classes in Ireland, they will come over in hordes, like the Goths and Vandals of other times, and make a settlement in this country, where they hope their labour will be duly rewarded, and from which no act of parliament will be able to dislodge them. By competition for employment they will defeat every humane effort, to keep up the present condition of the labourers of England. Their necessities will oblige them to work for half the usual wages of labour in this country; the English workman must either work for the same rate, or he will not get employment; he is thus thrown on the poor-rates for parish allowance, and in this way is the burthen of supporting the Irish poor put upon the parishes."
It would inevitably happen, if this system went on, that the rent of the Irish landlord would be paid out of the English poor-rates. He, as an Irish landlord, did not wish for any such result; but speaking as he ought to do when addressing their lordships, who were almost all landed proprietors, and whether in England or Ireland, all equally interested in this part of the question, he would say, it was established beyond all doubt, that a communication equal to a bridge was now existing between the two countries. It was quite impossible, therefore, unless they raised the Irish peasantry to the level of the English, that an amalgamation of misery should not take place between them. He believed the only remedy in their lordships' power was to endeavour, if they could possibly do it, to raise the Irish peasantry to the condition of the English; but, as he had already stated, he had no intention to recommend any assessment on the landed property of Ireland to give the poor employment. Yet the, condition of that part of the population of Ireland was exceedingly wretched—their distress
244
was so abject, that they were reduced to the lowest stage of degradation of which human nature was capable. It defied any powers he possessed to make their lordships acquainted with the extent of the misery of a large proportion of the Irish poor.—The noble earl then read several extracts from the evidence of Dr. Doyle before the committee of the House of Commons, detailing the wretched condition of the lower orders of the people in his diocese. The noble earl said, he might also make quotations from the works of Wilson and others, on this subject; but it would be disgusting, he apprehended, to their lordships to enter into further particulars of the wretched state of the great mass of the Irish population. Their lordships had heard it described by persons the best acquainted with the facts. The Irish peasantry were not now suffering the extremity of distress. They were enjoying their halcyon days; for a man and his wife now lived for three farthings a day. In the county of Limerick, a stone of potatoes might be purchased for three farthings; and in addition, it fortunately happened that the price of bacon was very high. The Irish labourer could not only live well by the plenty of potatoes; but he could sell the pig he fattened on them at a high price. These, therefore, were the best of times for him. Their lordships had, doubtless, all heard the old story of the Irish peasant, who told his visitor who objected to the presence of the pig in the house, that he had the best right to be there, as he paid the rent. It was notorious that the Irish peasantry paid their rents and taxes by the sale of their pigs.—He came, then, to consider what remedy should be applied to the evil. Government had, to a certain degree, given their sanction to the only means of relief that had yet been suggested. That emigration, if it could be carried into effect, might produce some partial relief, he would not deny. But it appeared to him, that the system of emigration recommended by the committee of the House of Commons was more likely to be advantageous to this country than to Ireland. It might operate, and he believed it had operated, in certain parishes, to relieve the pressure of the poor-rates. It had done so in Sussex and also in Kent. He had been informed by a respectable magistrate of that county, that by means of a loan he had advanced on; the poor-rates of one of the parishes, the

245
Vestry had been enabled to export no less than eighty individuals. This was the case of an agricultural parish, not very populous, on the borders of Sussex. The effect had been, that the parish was now enabled to maintain its poor with case, and give them constant employment; while it was making provision to repay the advance on its poor-rates. But when he came to consider what was the recommendation of the committee, and contrasted it with the amount of the population of Ireland, it was evidently futile. The utmost extent of the recommendation of the committee was, that at the expense of 1,140,000 l., in three years, there might be exported only ninety-six thousand individuals, men, women, and children. Now the population of Ireland was not less than eight millions. Assuming it had increased to that number, six millions were probably in the state of distress he had described. He would take it, however, at seven millions, and would suppose that five millions only were unemployed poor. Suppose, then, the emigration scheme were applied to Ireland, what would be the result? That in three years, a fiftieth part would be removed. Could anybody doubt that the vacancy caused by the removal of these persons would be immediately filled up? On this part of the subject he would refer to the publication of Mr. Sadler, on Ireland. From the extract he would read, their lordships would find that, by a law, which it was impossible to control, the increase of population took place in an increasing ratio, as the numbers of the people diminished; and it followed, that the more they unpeopled Ireland, the more rapidly the population would increase: — "Ireland, therefore, is no exception to the true principle of human exercise—a principle which, no more than the one that it opposes, can ever remain inert, and, like that, may be 'known by its fruits.' It dictates to the feelings, and prompts, the exertions, of all who receive it. Demonstrably true, even as it respects Ireland, so it holds forth the most instructive lesson as it regards that country. It teaches those who have to do with its affairs, or who wish to dictate to and intermeddle with those that have, a far surer, as well as happier method, of serving and blessing that country, than either transporting the people, driving them from their farms, deserting them in their distresses, or di-
246
minishing their numbers by any plans of cruelty or oppression, ancient or modern. It proves the utter futility of all such attempts, and that the law of nature is universal; the same as it respects the Irish, and, indeed, all other people, as it was with the Israelites, who 'the more they were afflicted, the more they multiplied and grew;' and that the way of diminishing the fecundity of the Irish, is not by the creation of vacuums but by replenishing those already made, by the deserters and enemies of their country. As this true principle of human increase is understood and prevails, feelings of confidence in an all-sufficient Providence will be strengthened; and of cordial affection for our fellow creatures revived; and benevolence no longer paralysed by the influences of the contrary theory, will renew its wonted exertions in behalf of human beings, in the way God and nature have heretofore dictated and blessed. Even policy itself may at length be pleased to think, that what it never can, and nature perpetually does, regulate, may be regulated for the best; and dropping its dread of population, concede at length, that to do justly and love mercy, is the best and safest course for nations, as well as individuals; and that the surest way to preserve a people in peace and quietness, is to give them a permanent interest in the institutions of their country."
In corroboration of this principle, the noble earl stated a series of calculations, by which it appeared, that in the province of Ulster, where the population of Ireland was most dense, the number of inhabitants to every square mile being two hundred and fifty-one, the population from 1813 to 1821, had increased at the rate of eleven per cent; in Leinster, the next in density, the number to each square mile was two hundred and sixteen, and the rate of increase sixteen per cent; in Munster, the number to each square mile was two hundred and four, and the rate of increase twenty per cent; and in Connaught, the least in density, the number to each square mile was one hundred and sixty-two, and the rate of increase twenty-eight per cent. The making of roads and bridges was a mode of employing the population to a certain extent; but it must always be very partial in its effect. Neither did he consider it was much in the power of government to give relief to the unemployed poor. It must be sought from other

247
sources. It was however in the power of individuals to do something; and he was quite sure that every noble lord who had property and influence in Ireland would see the necessity of spending some part of his income, in alleviating the misery of that part of the population who were upon his estate. The only way in which this misery could be effectually alleviated was, by giving occasional employment to those who were unable to procure it for themselves. It was notorious to every one who was acquainted with Ireland, that an overwhelming proportion of her population was totally without employment between sowing and harvest. This was a permanent evil, and totally distinct from those dreadful scenes which they had all witnessed in times of scarcity. But he had stated, that the only remedy for Ireland was to give employment to her population; and the only means by which this could be effected was the diffusion of capital throughout the country. It was anticipated by all those who advocated the Union, that the diffusion of capital throughout Ireland would be one of the consequences of that measure. But they had been disappointed; and why? Because Mr. Pitt had never been able to carry another measure, which there could be no doubt he contemplated. It was perfectly notorious, though he had heard it contradicted in that House, that Mr. Pitt contemplated the success of that great measure; and lord Camden had expressly stated, that the settlement of the great question of the Catholic claims was one of the plans of those persons who brought about the Union. Until all religious distinctions were removed, and that question was for ever set at rest, which had been, and would continue to be, the bane of Ireland, property would be insecure in that country, and her inhabitants would remain in their present unsettled and discontented state. And what had been the result? That no capitalist in his senses would trust his money in such a country. He would not enter further into this question, but he should not have done his duty to the miserable persons whose cause he was advocating, if he had not told their lordships that, until they did away with this irritation and discontent, they could do no good for Ireland; and that the only way in which these feelings could be expelled from the minds of the people of Ireland was to grant those concessions which they
248
had so long pleaded for in vain. Any other attempt at ameliorating the condition of Ireland would, he was convinced, be mere vanity; because any other attempt would not afford that security to property which would induce capitalists to embark their property in the country, and this was all that Ireland stood in need of. The noble lord here read the evidence of Mr. James Cropper, which was to the effect, that not only was not English capital sent to Ireland, but that Irish capital was constantly transferred to England, in consequence of the insecurity of property in the former country. The noble lord said, he had been informed, that Irish capital, amounting to between 8,000,000 l. and 9,000,000 l. was at that moment invested in the English funds. Mr. Cropper also stated it to be his opinion, that the distrust arising from the Catholic question was the cause of this insecurity of property in Ireland; and he himself had been informed that very day, that there were millions of English capital ready to be invested in Ireland, as soon as that question was set at rest. Were their lordships then to be told, that the poor of Ireland had no interest in a question which, if settled, would procure them employment, and the means of comfortable subsistence? He trusted that British capitalists would not go to the remote corners of the world in search of investments for their money, while Ireland, standing opposite their shores, presented more inviting means of employing it to advantage nearer home. He would not fatigue their lordships much longer; but he must endeavour to bring under their consideration the fact, that in Ireland there was a large proportion of the population able and willing to work, but altogether destitute of employment. He trusted that their lordships would not refuse an inquiry into this subject, because it was surrounded by difficulties. He confessed that there were many difficulties in the way; but then he contended, that he had made out a case so strong as to justify him in calling upon their lordships collectively as a legislative body, and individually as landed proprietors, to agree to the appointment of a committee, before whom the evidence of persons best acquainted with the subject might be taken. In a pamphlet which had been lately published, and which was entitled, "A Report to the marquis Wellesley fron Elizabeth Fry and John Joseph Gurney," it

249
was suggested, as an expedient for the amelioration of the condition of the Irish people, that an extension of those establishments which existed in Dublin, but whose exertions had been cramped for want of funds—he meant the Mendicity associations — might be productive of much good. It was suggested, that by establishments of this nature, which should be supported by voluntary subscriptions, and aided, to a certain extent, by the government, the poor would stand some chance of being taken care of in sickness and poverty. He thought the suggestion worthy of consideration; but the point which he wished to impress upon their lordships was this—that, at present, there was no provision whatever for the poor of Ireland, except the bounty of their neighbours, and that there had been numerous instances of these unhappy persons having perished from actual starvation. The noble lord (Limerick) shaked his head, and said, that such things had happened in England; but, though such occurrences might now and then have happened in the metropolis and in towns, he defied the noble lord to show him the possibility of it happening in the country. By the evidence of Mr. J. Marshall, who had erected large works in Ireland, it appeared that hundreds flocked in to obtain employment; that many of them had not tasted food for two days; and that some of them were so weak, that he was obliged to feed them for six weeks before he could put them to work. He himself knew of a set of labourers who were put to work by subscriptions last summer; and among them there were some who were in such a state of exhaustion, from want of food, that the overseer stated that he was ashamed to set them to work.—As he had before stated, much good might be done by the due attention of the landowners, whether in or out of the country; and, if this applied to the able-bodied, did it not, in a ten-fold degree, apply to the aged and infirm? Though he had stated, and he was sure he was addressing no one who did not agree with him, that this was the duty of every landowner in the country, yet some of them did not perform that duty at all, while others performed it but very imperfectly. It was therefore his wish to see if some means could not be adopted, by which local contributions should be insisted upon from the landowners, in order to extricate their indigent
250
fellow-creatures from destruction. He pledged himself to prove at the bar, if necessary, the misery endured at Abbeyleix, near the residence of a noble connection of his own, lord de Vesci; and he produced a paper which he styled part of the Annals of a Village, giving a detail of a number of wretched objects who had either died through want, or disease consequent upon it. These unhappy objects had been able just to crawl to the neighbourhood of that mansion, where they knew they should be relieved; but, from absolute weakness and sickness, had been unable to reach it. This state of things was not confined to one part of Ireland, for there were numbers of parishes where the inhabitants had expired in the open highway, from want of the common necessaries of life: "panem et aquam natura desiderat," but they had not even bread and water. Was it possible, then, that he was speaking in a civilized and Christian country, when, with these dreadful facts before their eyes, he was told that he was opening a shop of grievances? Why, Ireland had been a bazaar, well stocked with grievances for many years past. Was he speaking in an assembly of Christians? He had found their lordships, on a late occasion, very anxious to declare themselves Christians; and would they now see their fellow Christians starving? Would their lordships call themselves the followers of the benevolent Jesus, who taught them to feed the hungry and to clothe the naked, and who spent his whole life in going about doing good, when they refused to take this subject into their consideration, because it was opposed to the political notions of some persons? He could not believe that that House—consisting as it did of landed proprietors, many of whom derived the, comforts, the luxuries, and the elegancies which they enjoyed, from the sinews, the bones, and the marrow, of these unhappy persons—would refuse to seek a remedy for the misery which oppressed Ireland, or hesitate to agree to an inquiry, the object of which was to discover that remedy. He had been able to give but an imperfect representation of the state of this unhappy people. Did their lordships believe the representation which he had made? Then let them grant the inquiry, as the only means of providing a remedy. Did their lordships think that he over-stated the case; that he had coloured the picture too highly? Let them bring it to the test of

251
an inquiry. In either case, he was justified in calling upon their lordships to agree to his motion. He was quite sure that their lordships would not mis-spend their time, if they made an excursion to Ireland, and judged for themselves, on the very spot, of the amount of that misery which was endured by the Irish peasants. They would see the Irish peasant vegetating in a state of existence worse than that of any other human being on the face of the earth.
"Oh we have ta'en
Too little care of this! take physic Pomp!
Expose thyself to feel what wretches feel,
That thou mayest shake the superflux to them,
And shew the heavens more just."
The noble duke at the head of the administration had not, be was sure, forgotten the services of that people, to whom he was greatly indebted for the composition of those armies which, as a soldier, he had so often led to victory; and now that the noble duke was the prime minister of the country, surely he would leave no means untried, to alleviate their distress, or hesitate to have recourse to the measure which could alone effect permanent good to Ireland. He would now move, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the State of the Distressed Population of Ireland."
The Earl of Limerickrose to oppose the motion, as he was apprehensive that the whole end and purpose of the noble lord, was to introduce the Poor-laws into Ireland; than which no measure could be more pregnant with mischief. He would appeal to the noble lords around him, many of whom were well acquainted with Ireland, whether they recognised any similitude to the original, in the highly-coloured caricature which the noble mover had presented to their view? At the opening of his address, the noble lord had stated, that it was not his wish to import the Poor-laws into Ireland, in the full rigour in which they were administered in this country; but the noble earl's speech, like many other noxious things, carried a sting in its tail, and closed, by boldly avowing that he wanted a general assessment of the property in Ireland, for the maintenance of the poor. The noble earl had described people falling down in the streets and highways for mere want of food; but the same thing not unfrequently happened in England, and could form no sufficient reason for inflicting the system of the Poor-
252
laws upon Ireland. In pleading the cause of Ireland, the noble earl seemed not to have forgotten England, and with considerable dexterity had angled for the support of noble lords especially connected with the latter. Among other matters, he had spoken of emigration from Ireland to England. Did the noble earl mean to say, that the Irish were not to be permitted to seek employment in this country? Was the unhappy wretch to be stopped on his first landing, and sent back again? Were the parish officers to tell him, "You carry want and misery on your front; you must not come here to pollute our shores—go back. It is true there was a union of the two countries, but it was only a paper union; so return and starve." No less than seven millions had been raised last year in England under the Poor-laws, and the litigations for removals and settlements had cost 600,000 l. Did the noble earl imagine, that, by any inquiry, he could render such a system palateable in Ireland? Let the Poor-laws be once established, and the Spencean doctrines would flourish in full beauty and vigour: the misery, now partial, would be extended over the whole country, and felt by all classes; Ireland would wear one face of woe, and the lines of the poet would be verified:—
"We all are equal; for my lot is thine;
That is your resting place, and this is mine."
Property would soon become common; no man would work, because he could live without it; the Irish peasant would eat, drink, and sleep, and do no labour, but in the vocation of producing children. The noble earl, with great gallantry, was willing to devote his Irish property to destruction; but did he not recollect that his ancestors, the people of England, from the reign of Elizabeth to the year 1783, were employed in increasing the poverty in Ireland? Had it not been, during that long interval, one continued scene of aggression? The great lord Stratford was the first to establish a manufacture in Ireland, and he had written to a minister of state in England, that he would take care to repress the rising energies of trade and manufactures; for although he had given the Irish a slight manufacture of linen, which would employ a few, he would adopt measures to prevent its increase, as well as the introduction of the woollen manufacture. The successor of that noble lord pursued the same plan; wool was grown, but it was not allowed to be manufactured in Ireland, and its export

253
was not permitted excepting to England; while cattle could not be sold here on account of the effect of competition on the price. The introduction of the Poor-laws would amount to a positive confiscation of property. Instead of burthening Ireland with new taxes, the noble lord should employ himself in devising means of making the people industrious and contented. One plan had, indeed, often been mentioned with approbation by the noble earl, as a remedy for all evils; it was what had been called communicating to the people of all religions equal rights; but how would that put an end to poverty? He was satisfied, that in no country of the world more genuine charity existed than in Ireland; but nothing was more likely to chill it than the threat of a compulsory levy for the maintenance of the poor. But the noble lord was anxious to introduce the Poor-laws for the sake of the aged and infirm, and precisely the same benevolent intention was expressed in the famed statute of Elizabeth; but if the poor, as they ought to have been, had been provided for at that time out of the revenues of the convents, the country would not have been infested by banditti. The noble earl had complained that there was no provision in Ireland for the infirm and aged; but he held in his hand a statement regarding the poor-house of Limerick, by which it appeared that the revenues last year amounted to 1882 l. 6s. 5¼d., and that the number of poor relieved was one thousand and eight. There was scarcely a parish in which a dispensary was not established. The people, therefore, were not in such a state of helpless destitution. It was impossible for government to do every thing: they had already done much: they had employed the people, in great numbers, upon roads and bridges—not, indeed, at the expense of the public, but by advances which were subsequently repaid. Being satisfied, therefore, that a modified poor-rate, under the statute of Elizabeth, would end in accumulated taxation, and in inflicting upon Ireland the evil under which this country was writhing, he would oppose the motion.
The Earl of Longford, in opposing the motion, hoped it would not be understood that he meant to deny the existence of great distress in Ireland. He believed that much distress did exist in that country, and he should be most happy to lend his aid to any plan which seemed calculated
254
to remove it. His reason for opposing the motion arose entirely from his conviction, that the provision which the noble earl seemed inclined to propose would not have the effect which he hoped would arise from it. Considering the impracticability of applying to useful purposes such a measure as the noble earl contemplated, and believing that if general relief were granted, the mischief occasioned by it would be infinitely greater than any good that it was likely to effect, he trusted their lordships would not sanction it. He knew not how it was possible for their lordships to devise any suitable or practicable relief. The circumstances of the country were so complicated—the objects to be inquired into so various, that he thought it would be impossible to come to any practical views with reference to it; and he was perfectly sure, as no favourable result was likely to attend the proposition, that if it were acceded to, it would produce disappointment and agitation. The noble earl appeared to think, that the misery of Ireland was mainly to be attributed to the failure of the Popery question. This was one of the many nostrums which were put forth for the tranquillization of Ireland; but like other boasted specifics, it would not produce the supposed effect, if recourse were had to it. Respecting as he did the motives of the noble earl, he still felt him self compelled to differ from him in opinion as to the utility of his motion.
Viscount Lortonsaid, that with his knowledge of the noble earl's being one of the best absentee landlords—but still an absentee—he could not help considering much of what the noble earl had advanced as theoretical, and therefore to be received with due caution. He concurred in the correctness of the statement, that much misery existed in Ireland; but in the noble earl's explanation of the cause of that misery he certainly could not agree. He therefore should state his opinion on the subject as clearly as a long practical experience would enable him. It was not necessary for him to enter into a view of the general state of Ireland: such an examination would open a vast field of discussion, and he should therefore avoid it; The whole bearing of the present discussion might be compressed into one narrow point—the extreme poverty and distress of the people of Ireland. Many causes were assigned for that distress, and numerous recipes were prescribed for the cure of the

255
disorder. Their lordships had heard of one that evening, which, year after year, had been brought before the legislature— he meant that which was most erroneously called Catholic Emancipation. Now, he could not see how such a measure, if carried, could give relief to six or seven millions of people. The more the subject had attracted his attention, the more he felt satisfied, that if those claims were conceded the miseries of Ireland would be increased, and the chains of her slavery rivetted. He imagined that there could be but one opinion on the character of Popery as it existed in the darker ages; and if it had prevailed in England to the present day, this country never would have reached the station which she at present held among the nations of the world. Taking this position for granted, was it the wish of any party to keep the population of Ireland in that state of degradation which forwarded the views of those who were unable to value the 'glorious struggles of England for the establishment of her constitution? He requested their lordships to take a cursory view of the present condition of different parts of Europe. In Switzerland, where the same civil rights were enjoyed by all, some of the cantons were Protestant, and some Catholic: in the former all was industry, comfort, and cleanliness—in the latter, every thing presented an appearance the very reverse. How was such an extraordinary phenomenon to be accounted for? It could not be said that it was the effect of penal laws, for no penal laws existed there, except those which Popery enacted, and would enact wherever it was the predominant religion. Let their lordships look to the beautiful garden of Italy: they would there see the wretchedness and misery endured by the cultivators; of as fine a soil as any in the world. In short, as they approached nearer to the head-quarters of the Roman pontiff, they; would be the more struck with the deplorable state of the country; until at length they beheld the fac simile of Irish distress, Irish cabins, and Irish disease. It was the same in every country where the Catholic religion was allowed to take its full swing. In his opinion, the man could not be considered a true patriot, who, by procuring this emancipation, as it was incorrectly termed, would run the risk of reduring his country to that state of slavery and degradation from which she had freed herself.—He should now draw the atten-
256
tion of their lordships to the situation in which Ireland was placed at present. A parliament was allowed to sit unmolested in Ireland, under the auspices of the Catholic clergy, who sent out orders to every man of their persuasion, rich and poor, high and low, to act as that self-elected body desired them. That mandate was obeyed; for none dared to resist it. Such a system must be crushed: and the sooner it was done the better. The Irish Catholics were, in fact, in a state of bondage: they paid a blind obedience to their priests, unknown in other countries. Those priests sent out their tracts against reading the Bible, and vented their feelings against all who did not blindly approve of their proceedings. In truth, the effect of the existing system was to drive Protestant gentlemen and Protestant property out of the country, and to keep in a state of disquiet and alarm, all those who did not choose to submit to the arrogant domination of this Catholic parliament, and its great supporters, the Catholic priests. And here he could not avoid noticing the striking contrast which existed between the Roman Catholic clergy educated abroad, and those educated at Maynooth. The former were generally well-affected to the government. What the conduct of the latter had been it was unnecessary for him to describe. He would say, viewing all these circumstances, that if it were wished to perpetuate the misery of Ireland, let the legislature grant Roman Catholic emancipation; for, by such an act, they would establish that imperium in imperio which he had spoken of, and they would, more than ever, encourage the Catholics to rise up against their Protestant fellow-subjects, whom they were taught to call heretics, and to look upon as persons with whom no faith was to be kept. This was a fact known to every gentleman conversant with the state of that country.—He might be asked, what remedy he would recommend? His remedy was simply to give employment to all who were in want of it. That course would effectually do away with the necessity for all those emigrations from Ireland to this country, the object of which was that the persons so coming here might pick up a few pounds for the support of their families, who, during their absence, were sent round the country to beg. This was a horrid system, and occasioned the most lamentable demoralization. Now, in what manner could the employment which he proposed.

257
be afforded to the people? He would say, by the establishment of a sufficient fund, which might be raised by a general land and absentee tax; which should be expended, under proper regulations, on the improvement of the country where the money was collected. Such a plan, if adopted, would prove of material benefit to the country. In the course of a short time it would alter the habits of the people, and render Ireland, what it was not at present, a desirable place to reside in. He entreated ministers to act in a firm and decided manner towards Ireland, and not to attempt any thing by half-measures, or by what had been called conciliation. That had been tried over and over again, and had constantly failed. Let something be done for the poor; and, without ceremony, let an extinguisher be placed on the Popish; parliament. Then, and not till then, emancipation, in its true sense, would be: gained by the Roman Catholic population. Before he sat down, he begged to draw: their attention to a report laid before the guild of merchants of Dublin, on the 22nd of February, which contained a most accurate representation of the present state of Ireland. It proved clearly, that the wealth and the strength of Ireland were essentially Protestant, and not Catholic, as the demagogues would fain make the world believe.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that before he proceeded to the question, he begged to assure their lordships that he was thoroughly convinced, that no part of his majesty's dominions so imperiously required the particular attention of his majesty's servants as Ireland did. The noble earl had stated, that there were in Ireland eight millions of people, the situation of six millions of whom demanded inquiry. He had told their lordships likewise, that all the wealth of Ireland was not sufficient to give employment to those people. Now, certainly, he could not but think that this was an exaggerated statement. It could I not be the fact, that there were six millions of the Irish population who required employment: but he could see no use for an inquiry into that part of this subject; because it was well known, from the evidence which the House already had before it, that the poor of Ireland did suffer very considerable distress. But, it was not true that they suffered this distress at all times: it was not true that they suffered the same degree of distress in different years; but it
258
was unquestionably true, that they did suffer great distress at various periods, owing to the casualties of the seasons, and to the particular species of food on which they subsisted. The noble earl had stated, that the people were able to procure that sort of food at three farthings a stone. Now, really, if those six millions of people could get provisions at that price, in favourable seasons, it did appear to him, that the case hardly called for inquiry, unless at a period when their food failed, in consequence of an unproductive season. No inquiry was necessary to prove that this was the real state of the case. They had the fact already before them, in a variety of statements made by persons of authority; and there could, in truth, be no doubt about the matter. But then the noble earl asserted, that the distress arose from want of work, and that it would take more than all the wealth of Ireland to procure employment for the people. "Let us, then," said the noble earl, "relieve the sick, the lame, the aged, and the impotent." Now, he believed it was true, as had been stated, that the gentlemen of Ireland had already subscribed largely for the relief of persons of that description. It was likewise true, that with all that could be done, when there was a great pressure of distress, it was utterly impossible for those gentlemen, however anxious they might feel on the subject, to relieve the whole of that distress; and the consequence was, that those shocking circumstances occurred to which the noble earl had so feelingly referred. But he would ask, did the noble earl intend to confine relief to the sick, the lame, the aged, and the impotent? Because if so, that relief would go a short way indeed to alleviate the extensive misery arising from want of employment. But another observation which he begged leave to make, resulted from the state of the poor in this country. The Poor-laws here were applied to, for the purpose of supporting able-bodied men, in numerous instances. The poor-rates were made applicable to that purpose, and much of the burthen was attributed to that part of the law, which required that work should be furnished to able-bodied men. This could not always be found; but still the system of relief must be persisted in, because, if work were not furnished to able-bodied men, and if no food were given to them, those able-bodied men would soon become sick, and declare on the parish. Now, he

259
would ask, what the consequences must be, if a burthen of this kind were laid on property in Ireland—if the necessity of finding food for the sick, and not for the able-bodied, were imposed on that country? Why, the consequence would be, that nobody would work; and, when want of sustenance induced sickness, the people would at once come on the rates.—The noble earl had said, that one of the great evils of Ireland was want of capital; but he must tell the noble earl, that profusion of capital alone would not prevent the existence of a numerous body of poor. With the state of the poor in Ireland, their lordships were thoroughly acquainted. The opinion of Mr. Frankland Lewis, and of other acute individuals, examined before their lordships, was perfectly well known. Those gentlemen had stated, that the Poor-laws, as they existed in this country, or in Scotland, were not applicable to Ireland. Why, then, should they go into a committee, to have the same opinion stated over again, and probably by the same persons? It would only agitate the public mind; and, unless the noble earl laid down some practicable plan, it would be much better to avoid the inquiry.
The Earl of Mountcashelopposed the motion. He observed, that the Catholic rent was principally collected from the poorest of the people, and if relief were generally extended to them, it would only enable the Catholic Association to take more money out of their pockets. He also opposed it, because it would tend to depreciate the value of land in Ireland; which already did not fetch more than half the price that it fetched in England. The people of Ireland did not require so much relief as was imagined: they were more prone to idleness, and were more easily satisfied than the people of England: give them their potatoes and their dirty cabins, and they thought they had got enough. With regard to the sick and aged, the bounty of private individuals had raised up numerous dispensaries, hospitals, &c. for their relief.
The Earl of Darnleysaid, that perceiving the feelings of the noble duke, and that they were concurred in by many noble lords connected with Ireland, he felt that he ought not pertinaciously to press his motion. He had not a better opinion of the Catholic religion than other noble lords opposite; but he did not think that a constant vituperation of that re-
260
ligion was the way to conciliate the people of Ireland. He could not think that religion the source of the evils of that country, when he saw the flourishing state of the Netherlands, where it also prevailed. He wanted to institute an inquiry, to see whether they might not give relief by increasing the state of the security of property there. He was opposed to the system of coercion which some noble lords seemed inclined to recommend; and he hoped the noble duke would not listen to their recommendations; for such a course would throw Ireland into a flame, and aggravate the evils she already suffered.
The motion was negatived.