Sitting of 15 February 1828

FINANCE COMMITTEE.
Mr. Secretary Peelrose, and spoke to the following effect:—In rising on the present occasion, Sir, in pursuance of the notice which I have given, I shall take the liberty in the first place, to move the reading of that passage in his majesty's most gracious speech, at the commencement of the session, in which he recommends us to inquire into the state of the public Income and Expenditure.
The clerk then read the following passage:—
"We are commanded by his Majesty to recommend to your early attention, an inquiry into the state of the revenue and expenditure of the country.
"His Majesty is assured, that it will be satisfactory to you to learn, that, notwithstanding the diminution which has taken place in some branches of the Revenue

423
the total amount of receipts during the last year has not disappointed the expectations which were entertained at the commencement of it."
Mr. Secretary Peelresumed.—Sir, I have moved that that part of his Majesty's Speech which refers to the state of the income and expenditure of the country should be read, not merely in compliance with the general usage which has prevailed upon the occasion of similar motions, but in order that I may introduce the proposition which I am about to make, under the highest auspices and claim for it the sanction and the recommendation of the first authority in the land. The proposition for the appointment of a finance committee is not a novel proposition. At various periods of the history of this country, committees have been appointed at the recommendation of the Crown, for the purpose of examining into the expenditure and the income of the country; and for the purpose also of submitting to this House their sentiments as to the possibility of establishing a more effectual control over that expenditure, and of making such reductions in its amount as may be deemed compatible with existing circumstances.
In the year 1786, some short time after the termination of the American war, a finance committee was appointed on the recommendation of Mr. Pitt. After an interval of some years, again in 1796, a similar committee was appointed, over which the present lord Colchester presided; and presided with a degree of ability, which has conferred upon him the greatest honour; and of which committee, so presided over by him, the recommendations have realized to the country the greatest benefits. Sir, in the year 1807, I think upon the recommendation of the present marquis of Lansdowne, then lord Henry Petty, a committee was appointed, having for its object to make similar inquiries. Again in the year 1817, a fourth committee was moved for by the late lord Castlereagh; and that was the last of those committees of finance, which have been appointed by preceding parliaments. By an entirely fortuitous, but somewhat singular coincidence, the same period of time or very nearly the same period of time, has elapsed between the respective appointments of all these committees. The committee of 1786 was the first instance of such an appointment in modem times: in 1796, after, an interval of ten years,
424
another such committee was appointed; and in the early part of the year 1807, after the lapse of exactly a similar period, another. Then again in 1817, after another period of ten years, the fourth committee was nominated; and now, in 1828, accidentally no doubt, but again, after a similar interval, I have come forward, Sir, to propose the re-institution of the finance committee.
Sir, I do not propose the appointment of this committee from any of the motives, or from any of the objects, which have, in the course of the casual conversations that have lately taken place in this House, been sometimes insinuated, as the motives or objects of such appointment. I assure the House, that I do not, for a moment, propose this committee in the reluctant fulfilment of a pledge given by a former government. I propose it, Sir, in the deep conviction which I have long entertained, and which has been confirmed by the examinations I have recently made, of documents intimately connected with this subject. I propose it, in the deliberate conviction, that the time has at length come, when we must look fully and fearlessly at the state of the finances of this country. I do not propose this committee with the object insinuated, of deluding and deceiving the people of this kingdom, and of either procuring from it recommendations for increased establishments, or of founding upon the recommendations of this committee any propositions for increased taxation. I propose this committee, because I believe it will fulfil the purposes for which it is to be ostensibly instituted, and because I believe if it shall honestly fulfil them, the executive government and the country at large, will derive the most important benefits from its appointment.
It, perhaps, may be unnecessary for me, as it would certainly be much more agreeable to myself, if my labours were confined to a statement simply of the views, and to the proposal of the names of those, whose known acquirements point them out to the House as fit to be the members of this committee—it, perhaps, may be unnecessary that I should much exceed a brief indication of these two topics. But I think I have inferred from conversations which have already taken place here, that a general expectation is entertained, that I should preface my proposal for the appointment of this committee, by some reference of a general nature to the finances of the

425
country. I should be sorry to disappoint that general expectation; but, at the same time, I hope that in attempting to answer it in my address to them, they will bear with me, and extend to me their indulgent consideration. They will have the goodness to recollect, that statements of this kind have not been at all necessarily connected with the labours of that department which I have been more particularly connected with; and that, under the particular circumstances that have attended my recent return to office, I have been called on to give almost an undivided attention to other matters; and have really not had time to devote that degree of consideration to the subject which its extreme importance deserves; but which, had I been able so to do, might have compensated in some degree, for the disability and unaptness, which I fear will be perceptible in the statement I am about to offer.
In deference, however, to this general expectation of the House, I will state, or endeavour to do so, not only my general view of the whole question of finance, but also an outline of the income and expenditure of the country, for some years preceding. If there be any merit in the statement, then, which I am about to make, it will consist in this only—that I shall attempt to state the truth, without concealing or glossing over any thing. For, Sir, I am convinced, that nothing can be more fruitless, or more impolitic, than to introduce any thing like mistification, or suppression, into a view of the public finances of the empire. These matters are, I take it, much more simple than they appear to be on the face of ordinary official statements of them. There is, in fact, not the slightest difference between the calculations formed upon many millions and upon a few pounds, or between the expenditure of a humble individual and that of a rich and powerful country. They depend upon the same principles, and must be governed by the same laws; and one might as well contend that the rules of arithmetic, applying to the sums with which we ordinarily deal in the course of domestic occurrences—that these rules do not apply to the division or the sub-division of many millions of money, as to suppose that the finances of the country, however great or important she may be, must not, after all, rest on the same principles, and be governed by the same rule, as the finances of an individual.
426
I shall attempt then, Sir, to consider this important question, namely, the present state of the finances of this country, on precisely the same principles that any individual would apply to a view of his own concerns; supposing he found it necessary, for any purpose, to enter upon the consideration of them. I shall, therefore, as far as possible, divest my statement of all technicality—of every thing tending to obscure it, or to make it unintelligible to those even who may be least versed in financial matters. Now, I presume, Sir, that if an individual were about to look into the state of his affairs, in order to ascertain what his circumstances really were—what were his expenses, and what the probable prospective state of his finances to meet them, he would decide upon proceeding on these principles; first, he would attempt to determine what were the encumbrances to which he might be liable, and from which he could not escape; secondly, what had been the nett amount of his income, for some years past; thirdly, what the nett amount of his expenditure during the same period; and, fourthly, what reasonable prospect there might exist, either as to the future amount of his expenses or his income.
In referring thus briefly to the matters which I shall submit to the House, I am merely about to state a few facts, which may enable the House to take a general view of the present financial condition of the country. The first question, then, to be propounded, according to the course which I have prescribed to myself, is—what is the present amount of those encumbrances, of those pledges, to the fulfilment of which we are bound, by every obligation of national honour and national good faith. For, Sir, whatever may be the state of the finances of this country, or whatever our present difficulties, I believe there will be almost an universal hope, and an universal feeling and expectation, throughout the empire, that the national faith which has been pledged to the public creditor, must be, in the first instance, regarded as a bond, as an encumbrance, which must be satisfied, before any proceedings are adopted, with a view to reduce the expenses of the country. I think it will be quite sufficient for my purpose (although I will go as much further back as any gentleman may desire), if, taking the amount of the general debts, funded and unfunded, at a recent period,

427
I compare it with the amount of her debt in the first year after the late peace. Taking that, then, as the first, and shewing the utmost extent of our encumbrances at the end of the war, I shall take an intermediate period between that, year and the present; and then I shall state the amount of our obligations at this moment. For these purposes, then, I propose to take the years 1815, 1822, and 1827. Now, the year 1822, is a term pretty nearly intermediate between 1815 and 1828. I should premise that, in order to simplify my statement, and make it much clearer than it would otherwise be, I shall call that which is, in fact, the year 1815—but which ends on the 5th January, 1816—the year 1816, as being the more compendious, and the juster way of describing it, and so of other years that I may name. The total capital, then, of the unredeemed funded debt of this country, in the year ending on the 5th January, 1816, was 816,310,000 l. In 1822, the total amount of the unredeemed debt was 796,530,000 l. Last year, the amount or capital of the unredeemed debt was 777,476,000 l. I should observe, that I deem it unnecessary to mention the hundreds. This last item is strictly, I believe, 3 or 400 l. more, but I apprehend it is sufficient if I state it thus in round numbers. I conceive I shall simplify my statement by omitting to mention, and I think it probable the House will agree with me in considering the amount of the debt too large to render it necessary to be very particular in mentioning hundreds.
The next matter to be considered is, the amount of charge. The amount of charge for debt to which the country is annually liable, includes the amount" of interest payable to the public creditor, on account of the funded debt; and the cost of management of the unfunded debt. This charge amounted,

In January 1815 to

£.28,278,000

1823 to

24,419,000

1827 to

25,500,000

But this statement alone does not comprise a fair view of the aggregate amount of the public debt, and the charge upon it. In the first place, the annuities payable on the public funds are terminable in point of fact; but at so distant a period as scarcely to warrant the introduction of any calculations founded on their expiration. In the next place, a portion of this
428
charge is permanent, and a portion temporary only. We are next to consider what has been the total amount of charge occasioned to the country by reason of the unredeemed funded debt, at the first period—the year after the peace—the intermediate period 1822—and in the last year. I propose, therefore, to add to the charge of the unredeemed debt, the amount of the charge upon annuities; in order to show the total amount payable by the country, in consequence of the unredeemed debt and annuities taken together. The annual amount of charge on the funded debt and annuities was,

In January 1815

£.30,488,000

1823

28,596,000

1827

28,381,000

I am not yet come, Sir, to speak of the Exchequer bills or unfunded debt; but the statement I have made will serve to shew that the diminution of the public expenditure, on account of interest, to which this country is liable, was last year, as compared with the year 1815, 2,106,000 l. but, as compared with 1822, only 216,000 l.
I have been hitherto speaking of the funded debt. I now come to the unfunded debt. In order to determine this view of the whole of the encumbrances to which the country is liable, on account of the charge of the unfunded debt, including Exchequer bills (under various classes), public works, Irish Treasury, deficiency, and outstanding, I may state, that—

In Jan.1815 it amounted to.

£.44,544,000

1823 to

42,209,000

1827 to

34,770,000

The total annual charge, therefore, for these three years, namely, 1815, 1823, and 1827, as for funded debt, for annuities and for unfunded debt, was—

In January 1815

£.33,679,000

1823

30,027,000

1827

29,254,000

I am perfectly aware that all this is matter of mere detail, and as such must be very tedious, I fear, to some hon. gentlemen around me; but, on account of the extreme importance of that detail, I must entreat their most serious attention to it. The total decrease, then, Sir, of the capital of the unredeemed funded debt, since the year 1815, has been 38,835,000 l. that is to say, last year, as compared with the year 1815, we had appropriated for the redemption of the funded debt, 38,835,000 l.

429
and in 1827 also, the unfunded debt, as compared with its amount in 1815, was decreased by 9,770,000 l. so that the decrease upon the debt, funded and unfunded, was, in round numbers, 48,605,000 l. The total decrease of charge on account of the funded and unfunded debt, since 1815, appears to have been 4,424,000 l.; that is to say, a less amount on account of the charge for the total debt, as compared with its amount in the first year of peace, 1815, by the considerable sum of 4,424,000 l.
It may not be unimportant, in the next place, to state what proportion of the annual charge, on the total debt of the country is occasioned by annuities. Of these annuities, some, as I have before observed, are terminable. In January, 1815, the total amount of charge on the debt was 30,488,000 l., of which 1,924,000 l. was absorbed by annuities. In January, 1823, the total charge was 28,596,000 l., of which 1,892,000 l. was the amount of annuities. Last year the total charge was 28,381,000 l., and the proportion of annuities (a proportion undoubtedly much increased) was 2,602,000 l. My sole purpose is to give a full and unreserved statement of the condition of the finances of the country. I trust there will be no material error; for my object is to state all—to conceal nothing.
This being, then, the state of our encumbrances for which we have to provide, let us next look at what has been our Revenue and our Expenditure for some time past. In order to make a correct estimate for the future, the best course will be to extend the view somewhat beyond the limit of two or three years; and I propose, therefore, to bring "the period of five years within the scope of my observations. I will first state what has been the expenditure of the country for each of the last five years. And here, Sir, at the outset, I am met by a difficulty, as to the meaning of the word expenditure—a difficulty which, obviously, must be solved, before we can hope to have a clear understanding upon the subject. I wish it, therefore, to be understood, that, by "expenditure," I mean the national expenses, clear of what is called the "Dead-weight"—the naval and military pensions. For the sake of promoting a clear and intelligible view of this complicated question, I discard all consideration, for the present, of the sums of 4,800,000 l. on the one side,
430
and the 2,800,000 l. or whatever the amount is, on the other. That I may not be charged with a desire to evade a difficulty, I will afterwards speak of those pensions; but, for the present, I leave them altogether out of my calculation. I have, then, taken the last five years, and endeavoured to ascertain what has been the amount of the great branches of national expenditure, viz.—the interest of the debt, the army, navy, ordnance, civil list establishments, and so on. It will be observed, that in stating the expenditure, I am stating it exclusive of the interest of the unfunded debt, and exclusive of the advance of five millions, given under the act of parliament, to the commissioners for the liquidation of the national debt. The expenditure, which I now propose to state to the House, comprises merely the ordinary expenditure of the country—the great branches of expense. The total of these branches, then, exclusive of the sinking fund, was in—

1823

£.47,692,000

1824

49,527,000

1825

48,061,000

1826

49,585,000

1827

49,719,000

Suppose, in the next place, that we deduct from the gross expenditure, the fixed sum for the interest of the debt, in order to exhibit the expenditure apart from the fixed encumbrances. I proceed, then, to state the nett expenditure, exclusive of the charge for the funded and unfunded debt, exclusive of the naval and military pensions, and also for naval and military works—which latter do not at all belong to the subject. The sums will then stand thus—

1823

£.18,477,000

1824

20,461,000

1825

20,000,000

1826

21,509,000

1827

21,529,000

In stating these figures correctly, Sir, I intend to cast no reflection upon any former government. In doing so, I should be reflecting upon myself, as well as upon them. I am satisfied that the course I am pursuing is the only one by which I can fairly present a full, financial, view of my subject; and it is to the accomplishment of that task that my duty upon the present occasion points.
Having thus separated the ingredients of our expenditure—having shewn it in. parts—I will now present to the House a view of the total expenditure and income,

431
for the entire period of five years. The total income, including all sources of revenue, and the re-payment of advances made for public works, for the five years last past, is 261,000,000 l. Of course, the House knows the meaning of re-payments of advances made upon public works in England and Ireland. Sums were advanced from time to time, for the promotion of works in both countries, security being taken for the interest and re-payment at convenient periods; and this sum of 261,000,000 l. includes within it such sums as have been repaid during the five years.
I will now, with equal unreserve, state the amount of the expenditure for the same period; so that, by deducting the one sum from the other, we may see what has been the real surplus of income over expenditure. I omit in this statement likewise, as in the statement of the income, the naval and military pensions, and include all advances made for public works, and, indeed, every other charge. The total of our expenditure, thus obtained, deducting the repayments, is 249,000,000 l. Deducting 249,000,000 l. from 261,000,000 l. the total surplus revenue, applicable to the liquidation of the national debt, during that period of five years, appears to have been 12,000,000 l.
Now, Sir, I will state the income and expenditure, including the Dead-weight, as it adds to the income on one side, and to the expenditure on the other, under the existing arrangement, with respect to that item. The total, then, inclusive of every payment for the last five years, will be—

Income

£.284,149,000

Expenditure

263,005,000

21,144,000

Making a total surplus of twenty-one millions in round numbers, according to this view of the subject.
The next point to which I think it necessary to draw the attention of the House, is the amount paid by the commissioners of the Sinking-fund, as directed to be annually appropriated by act of parliament for the last five years. The total of these payments is 29,414,000 l. Exhibiting an excess over the surplus income, which amounts, as I have shown, to 21,144,000 l., of 8,360,000 l. The difference has been made up, partly by money raised for that purpose, and partly by reduction of the balances in the Exchequer on the last day of one year compared with those ba-
432
lances on the last day of another. Supposing, for instance, the amount of balances, to have been five millions in the year 1823, and the amount now to be only two millions, the House will easily see, that a larger sum by three millions than the actual surplus of the income over expenditure may have, during the intervening period been applied to the reduction of the debt.
I am not aware, Sir, that I have omitted any point necessary to render to the House a clear, unembarrassed, and perfectly true, account of the income and expenditure of the last five years, and of the encumbrances for which we have had to provide. It would be difficult for me to attempt an estimate of the future probable revenue of the country. That is a task which more properly devolves on my right hon. friend, the chancellor of the Exchequer, at a more advanced period of the session; and it would be presumption in me to anticipate, with the feeble means which I have for coming to a judgment, the statement which we may expect from him. For the purpose, however, of assisting to furnish a correct view of our prospects in that respect, it may not be amiss to refer to the ordinary expenditure and income of the last two years. The total ordinary revenue

For 1826, was

£.49,625,000

For 1827

49,581,000

This is exclusive of naval and military pensions, casual revenue, and the repayment of advances on public works. The income for the year 1827 being therefore 49,581,000 l., expenditure 49,487,000 l.; the excess of income was 94,000 l.
The expenditure for the two years was

For 1826

£.49,513,000

1827

49,487,000

I am aware, Sir, that some expectation is entertained that I shall say something about the estimates for the present year; and, although they are not all made up in a form fit to present to the House, I shall not hesitate to give a general, and, I believe, an accurate, notion of their amount. I protest, however, against being responsible for any inaccuracy that may subsequently appear to attach to this statement. It is my anxious wish to give the House every possible information upon every branch of the subject; and it is that alone which induces me to make this premature disclosure of the probable amount of the Estimates of the present year. The

433
Estimates for the present year will, I believe, be—

For the Army

£6,586,000

Army Extraordinaries; including under that head, 450,000 l. advance for the present year, and 360,000 l. of debt belonging to the last year

810,000

Militia

292,000

Commissariat

372,000

Navy

5,995,000

Ordnance

1,574,000

Miscellaneous

1,946,000

Now, Sir, I hope I shall not be charged with concealment or intentional mis-statement, should any of the sums come out different from what I have stated. Sir, I state these items fairly and explicitly to the House, with a view of putting it in possession of the real state of the financial affairs of the country. I am sure the House will do me the justice to believe I am disposed to make no intentional error. Sure I am there is no wilful misrepresentation; and should any immaterial error hereafter appear, I am satisfied the House will not bind me down to any casual inaccuracy that may arise from my disposition to put them in possession of the fullest information. The total of these Estimates is, 17,575,000 l.
I have referred to the estimate made by the Finance Committee of 1817, as adequate for the same services prospectively; and I find that their estimate for the services I have enumerated was 17,350,000 l. Deducting this sum from the former, there remains as the excess of the estimate for the present year, over the estimate of the Finance Committee of 1817, 227,000 l. The total amount of estimates voted for the last year was 18,745,000 l.; so that the estimates for the present year are less than those for the past year by 1,168,000 l. The hon. member for Montrose seems to doubt the accuracy of my statement. I am perfectly willing to be corrected if I am in error. I believe it will be found that these estimates are

Less than those of 1825, by

£6,140

1826, by

365,843

1827, by

1,168,260

In looking forward to the probable demands that, will be made on this country, I think, Sir, we should not omit to take into consideration the effect that will be produced by the termination of the contract with the Bank of England, with
434
reference to the naval and military pensions. If it should not be deemed advisable to renew that contract—if it should be thought better to return to the old system, and meet the charge of our pensions—it is clear that the result will be an addition to the present expenditure of the country. The contract with the Bank will, I believe, expire in July of the present year. The effect of the termination of the contract will be a diminution of income available for the general services of the year 1828, as compared with the amount received from the trustees of the Bank. For the year 1827, 913,240 l. And for the general services of the year 1828, as compared with 1827, of 1,940,740 l.
It does not appear to me necessary further to trespass on the patience of the House, by presenting them with any further details, to enable them to form a just opinion as to the real state of the country. It is not my intention to enter into any defence of the contract to which I have just alluded—it would be quite beside my purpose to do so—and I have merely introduced it to assist in forming an hypothesis of our probable future income. For the same purpose only have I referred to the estimates. They were prepared by a government with which I was not connected; but I have a strong conviction on my mind, that they were prepared with great care, earnestly and successfully to carry into effect every possible retrenchment. But on the subject of these estimates, I will say that I am satisfied there exists in the new members of the present government, as well as in those who belonged to the last administration, a sincere desire to see economy in the public expenditure carried to its utmost length. And if through the recommendation of the Finance committee, it should appear practicable to make some reduction in the expenditure of the next half-year, that I am confident will be cheerfully effected. With respect to the army estimates, it has been proposed that a further reduction should be made in our military force. To effect this, there are two modes—the one by disbanding the regiments, and the other by reducing the number of men. In the former case, there would be a claim on the part of those reduced, to pensions. By reducing the number of men merely, no expense is entailed on the country. The reduction of the men also could be

435
immediately effected, and certainly if our military force will bear reduction at all, that is the way least open to objection. Already, in several departments, we have entered upon the business of reduction. I have had communications with my noble friend at the head of the Foreign Department, and he has informed me of the prospect that presents itself of his being able to make reductions in several diplomatic expenses; more especially, in some of the expenses accruing out of our relations with South America. It is the intention also of my noble friend to apply himself to our foreign ministerial establishments, with a view of effecting a redaction in them. Another item in the general expenditure, to which I will not advert at length, because the attention of the House will, in due time, be drawn to it by my right hon. friend (Mr. Huskisson)—that part of the public charge which arises out of our colonial relations—is under review, and it is hoped that some reduction may be made in it. It must be within the knowledge of every one, that the military establishments maintained in and for the colonies entail considerable expense upon Great Britain. From some of our colonies—those which have no independent legislatures, but are subject to the immediate dominion of the Crown—a revenue applicable to public purposes and necessities is already received, amounting to about a million a year. I am perfectly ready to enter into the consideration, whether the revenue of those colonies may not be made so applicable, as materially to lessen the expenses of the mother country on their account.
Having, Sir, expressed my willingness, and the willingness of the noble and right honourable persons who act with me, to attend most anxiously and zealously to any suggestions which may proceed from the finance committee, it only remains for me to say a few words upon the intended constitution of that committee, and of the powers which are to be intrusted to it. With respect to the constitution of the committee, I hope I have taken a course which will give general satisfaction. Nothing can be more painful than to have the nomination of such a body; from the duty which it imposes of excluding therefrom a number of persons whose assistance would be, in the highest degree, valuable. To make a selection, however, was necessary; and I have endeavoured
436
to choose those persons whose talents are generally admitted, and whose attention has been longest directed to the consideration of financial subjects. I have endeavoured to select much of the knowledge and experience of the House, without reference to party; and I do feel considerable confidence, that my selected choice will meet with approbation. With respect to the powers of the committee, I am not prepared to say what ought to be their exact limits. I think my right hon. friend (Mr. Huskisson) was, the other night, materially misunderstood, when he was stated to have declared, that the establishments of the country were such as government only was responsible for, and that the committee would have no right to inquire into them. It is impossible for any man of good sense to think of prescribing the exact limits of such an inquiry. On the one hand, it is clear that the executive government, if it is to be competent to the discharge of its duties, must be responsible, to a certain extent, for the establishments of the country. On the other hand, to exclude the committee from all view of those establishments, would be as absurd as it would be to deny the responsibility of the government. Most of the circumstances connected with those establishments cannot be excluded from a body so appointed. But, at the same time, it is obvious, that government may be in possession of many elements material to the formation of an accurate judgment, which they cannot disclose. Thus, for instance, with respect to the treaty which was last night referred to, which treaty provided for the employment of a naval force, how was it possible for the executive, which could only know of the secret article of the treaty, to impart to the committee that material element to its judgment—and how could such a committee have proceeded to deliberation, without the knowledge of such a circumstance, excepting by confidence in the executive? All I can say, Sir, is, that to enable the committee to take an accurate and comprehensive view, every possible assistance will be given, I can say no more than this. It was the rule on which the committee acted in 1817, and no other rule will be acted on now.
There is one point, Sir, to which, before I conclude, I am anxious to address myself, and upon which I have always had a very strong feeling; I had thought, indeed, of introducing a few words into the

437
motion expressive of that feeling. Sir, I refer to the advantage and necessity of a simplification of the public accounts. I have no doubt that, without any express words, the committee will feel themselves warranted in taking that important subject into their serious consideration. No man is more desirous than I am to see the public accounts presented in the simplest possible form. And I can only say, that if the committee shall be able to recommend any plan for the attainment of this object, they will secure for the country a great public advantage. I see no reason, Sir, why we should not follow the example set us, in this respect, by France and the United States of America. I am quite certain that we shall do well to profit by such example, and I can see no single disadvantage attending it.
I thank the House for the indulgence which has been extended to me, in the statement of details which it would have been scarcely possible to have relieved from the dryness which notoriously attaches to such subjects. I trust I have said enough to shew in what spirit this committee has been proposed, and to convince the House that it proceeds, on the part of his majesty's government, from a sincere desire to meet parliament and the country, fairly and fully, upon a subject of such vital importance. I know that, from a person in my situation, professions of economy are suspected as things of course, and as intended to mislead. But I state earnestly and confidently to the House, that there is, on the part of the present administration, in taking the affairs of this country under its guidance, a resolute determination to effect all possible economy in the public expenditure. An hon. gentleman, the other night, declared it to be his opinion, that, whatever the disposition of government might be, that disposition would be overruled by an influence which rendered it imperative to maintain large establishments to satiate that influence. To this, Sir, speaking from experience in the business of government, I give an unqualified denial.
I shall not now go back to the increase which may have taken place in the different departments during the particular periods upon which I have addressed myself to the House, but must say, that I cannot agree with the hon. member for Aberdeen in the causes to which he refers this increase. I believe that the increase of
438
which he complains has been partly, and indeed principally, owing to the views entertained by each particular department with respect to its own service, without, perhaps, paying very particular reference to the general expenses of all; and, at any rate, I entirely differ from the hon. gentleman, because I am convinced that the expenses thus incurred have been entered into from the laudable desire of each head of a department to have the establishment under his control in the best possible condition, and, most certainly, from other and better motives than those assigned by the hon. gentleman. In saying this, I speak, Sir, from experience. In the department which I have had especially under my control, I confess I always entertained a wish to have all the establishments connected with it kept up in the best possible state, without considering what the effect might be upon the general expenditure of the country. What I now wish is, that there should be one general and effectual control over all the establishments of the country; and I believe that the noble individual at present at the head of the highest department in the country, has the disposition, as well as the power, to exercise a greater and more efficient control over all the subordinate establishments, than any other person ever placed in a similar situation. I wish to avoid introducing, upon this occasion, any thing like a political or party feeling into the consideration of a matter of this importance. I only mention the name of that noble person upon this occasion, because I consider him more capable than any other individual of efficiently executing that control, so indispensable to the well-being of the country. I say this, because, in the various civil offices which he has filled, there can be no one who has not seen, both in the ordnance and other departments heretofore under his direction, the most anxious desire on his part to introduce every retrenchment and every degree of economy, compatible with the interests of the country. I am sure that that noble individual sees no cause to despond at the situation of the country, although he has the desire to look its financial state fairly in the face, and has the most earnest wish that every possible reduction should be made. I know that these are his wishes, but only under the imperative obligation of maintaining to the strict letter of the bond, the national faith

439
with the public creditor; for which he is fully assured means are to be found in the resources of the country, and upon which account he feels that there is not the slightest cause for despondency. In this feeling, Sir, I fully participate. I speak my own sentiments, as well as those of the noble individual at the head of the government, when I express my belief, that if it were necessary to make an appeal to the country, and to rouse its dormant powers, those powers may at all times be roused, in the cause of justice and in vindication of the national honour—that there never was a time that could be productive of mightier efforts, founded on the unimpaired resources of its finances and the matchless energy for which it has at all times been distinguished. I move, Sir,
"That a Select Committee be appointed, to inquire into the State of the Public Income and Expenditure of the United Kingdom, and to consider and report to the House, what further regulations and checks it may be proper, in their opinion, to adopt, for establishing an effectual control upon all charges incurred in the receipt, custody, and application, of the Public Money; and what further measures can be adopted for reducing any part of the Public Expenditure without detriment to the Public Service."
Mr. Humesaid, that he did not rise for the purpose of offering any opposition to the motion, but he wished to put it to the right hon. gentleman, whether he could be able to carry the proposed objects into effect by the aid of one committee? He was anxious also to learn, whether the committee was to inquire into the state of the Crown lands, the hereditary revenues, and other matters upon which inquiry had been often promised, but never entered into? He was desirous at the outset to make this inquiry; for, as nearly as he could gather, the words of the present motion were the same as those for the appointment of a select committee in 1817; and yet that committee had inquired into very few of the objects for which they had been appointed. It also appeared, that none of the committees appointed had gone into all the subjects which it was said would be submitted to them; although some of them had sat for several years, and had presented ten or twelve reports. If the proposed committee were to be so long occupied, was it to have those several matters submitted to its con-
440
sideration? Did the right hon. gentleman intend to provide for the deficit of two millions?—Did he intend to make arrangements respecting the sinking fund, or to provide for the deficiency which would take place when the Bank should cease to make any payments on the naval and military half-pay and pensions? Were these things to be brought before the House separately; or were they to wait until they had been submitted to the consideration of the committee of finance? If these, and the other matters, which, in his opinion, should be referred to a committee, should be referred to the present committee, it would be impossible it could do them justice.—He had prepared a statement of the different branches connected with the public revenue and expenditure of the country, and he would say, that if the committee were to direct its attention to all of them it would be impossible it should terminate its labours in less than two or three years. What he, therefore, would suggest would be, the appointment of ten or eleven finance committees [a laugh]. He was aware that this was quite a novel thing to propose, and was prepared to expect objections to it; there being so few members who were disposed to take any labour upon themselves. But he must contend, that if the right hon. gentleman was serious in proposing a consideration of all the points to which he had referred, it would be quite impossible that they could be gone into by one committee consisting of twenty or thirty members. It would be impossible that, with any chance of effect, in this or the next session, they could go into an inquiry or make any report, not merely respecting one, but twenty departments, which ought to be submitted to their consideration.—He would show that it was not so easy a matter to conduct these inquiries by one committee, as some gentlemen seemed to think. Let the House look at the last committee appointed; he meant that which was called sir Charles Long's committee. This committee was occupied for five years with the Customs and Excise, and with no other department of the public income or expenditure. The finance committee made thirteen or fourteen reports, and yet not one of them referred to the many departments into which, he contended, inquiry ought to be made; he meant the Crown lands, the hereditary revenues, the civil list, the expenses of our law courts, and

441
the colonies. He was glad to learn that there was an intention of making some inquiry respecting them; but he would ask, if any one inquiry could be effectual, if thus directed to so many objects. To consider these important matters with effect, the labours of one committee could not be finished in less than two or three years. If the House were in earnest they ought to divide the labour, by the appointment of many committees; which, by sitting from day to day, might be enabled by the end of the session, to present reports respecting the several departments connected with the revenue and expenditure of the country. By that means they might be enabled to point out many reductions, which it would be impossible otherwise to make. If this course was not adopted the committee now proposed would give the name, but few, if any, of the real advantages, of inquiry, or be productive of any practical good.—If he pointed out the items of account which ought to become the subject of inquiry, it would appear that each of the eleven committees he proposed would have quite enough to do for the next two or three months. The committees he would suggest should be small in number—not exceeding seven members for each committee, of whom five to be a quorum. All who were acquainted with the mode of doing business in select committees, would; agree with him, that it was done in a more regular, orderly, and efficient, manner by a small committee, than by one very numerous. Now, it appeared, that we had gone on increasing our debt since 1816, for he should be prepared to prove, that the right hon. gentleman was mistaken in asserting that there had been a decrease of upwards of 4,000,000 l. in the charge of funded and unfunded debt since that period. He repeated—we were going on increasing our debt at a period when we ought to be reducing it annually. We were bound, then, under the circumstances of the country, to reduce our expenditure, not 17,000,000 l. or 16,000,000 l., but to that scale which would leave us such a surplus as would be efficient for the gradual reduction of ourdebt.—The right hon. gentleman had talked of the resources of the country, and had said, there was no ground for despair. He also did not despair, who called for economy. He admitted the extent of our resources; but he hoped they would not be stretched to that extent, un-
442
til every means of economical reduction had been tried. The right hon. gentleman said, that those resources were all unimpaired. That, he doubted, for he feared it would be found, that the returns from every species of property embarked in trade were not such as could be desired, or as they had been sometime back. He would say, in the words of lord Castlereagh, in moving for the appointment of the finance committee of 1817, that a country must be mad which, in a state of peace, should go on, from year to year, consuming its income; and that it was the duty of the legislature to look forward, in time of peace, to a possible state of war, and so to reduce the expenditure as to leave a considerable surplus for the reduction of the public debt.—Now this important duty, which had been thus pointed out by the noble lord, it would be impossible to perform, as far as it depended on an inquiry into the several branches of our income and expenditure, by the aid of one committee. He could assure the right hon. gentleman, that if he and the noble duke, to whom he had alluded, meant to have such an inquiry as would be followed up by practical reductions in the present session—and he was not disposed to deny their good intentions—they would find it impossible to carry their intentions into effect, by any other mode than that of several small committees of inquiry, consisting of five or seven members, who should meet from day to day. If these should be appointed, he had no doubt that, in the course of three months, they would be able to extend their inquiries to, and to report upon, the several departments which he should point out.—To one of those committees he would refer the consideration of Customs and Excise; the changes which it might be necessary to; make in some of the duties, and the substitution of one duty for another would be sufficient to employ that committee for three or four months, and their report would be attended with considerable advantage.—Another committee would find sufficient employment in inquiring into the departments of stamps, taxes, and hackney-coaches. Gentlemen were, perhaps, not aware that there was a department under that head, under which were included several items; and this department, which was kept up at an expense of some 10,000 l. or 15,000 l. a-year, might with advantage be transferred to the board of

443
stamps and taxes. He stated this, because he knew that a board of stamps was kept up several years with seven commissioners, and during that time three commissioners were never in attendance at once. Now, he would pledge himself to the House, that if a committee were appointed to inquire into the boards of stamps and taxes, and that other board which he must not mention lest he should excite the laughter of the House, reductions might be made which would be most advantageous to the country.—To another committee, he would submit an inquiry into a department which was, perhaps, the best conducted of any under the government; but in which there yet remained much to be done, if they looked to what took place respecting it in Ireland. He would have a committee appointed to examine into the Post-office department of England, Scotland, and Ireland; and he had no doubt that the country would derive great benefit from the result of that inquiry. He was ready to admit the great activity and talent of the gentleman who held the office of Secretary in that department; but it was impossible that one individual could give all the attention which was required in the three departments, of England, Ireland, and Scotland. An investigation into the improvements which might be made in that department would give a committee ample employment for three months.—The next subject of inquiry which he would refer to another committee would be, the nature and management of the land revenue. In a report made on this subject in 1777, it appeared, that it was very productive; but since then no sufficient inquiry had been made into it, and much of its produce had been squandered away in useless establishments.—The hereditary revenue of the Crown would of itself give ample employment to the investigations of a select committee for six months. Another subject of importance, which the right hon. gentleman alluded to, was one which deserved the best consideration of a separate committee: he meant the mode in which the public accounts were kept in the Exchequers of England, Scotland, and Ireland. It would scarcely be believed, that in the year 1828, the public accounts in England, the land of accounts and calculations, were kept in a manner similar to that of the savages in the Sandwich Islands. They all recollected the manner in which Robinson Cru-
444
soe kept his account of the passing days, by cutting notches on a piece of wood. Would it be believed that, in the Exchequer of England, at the present day, the same mode of notching a piece of wood, called a tally, was observed, to mark the receipt of the public money? One kind of notch was put for 100 l., another for 1,000 l., and so on. Was that, he asked, a fit mode in which to keep the public accounts of this country? He might also mention that some of the money accounts were kept in Latin. He believed that if a receiver of taxes paid a sum of money into the office, it was entered in Latin. The account was given in English. Suppose a payment of 5,360 l. made from the land-tax revenue: it was entered in barbarous Latin, and certain notches made in a piece of wood or tally, to denote the hundreds and thousands received. Great inconvenience, in other respects, arose from the mode of keeping the accounts at the Exchequer and the Treasury. He therefore anticipated much benefit from the labours of a committee appointed to examine into the manner in which the public accounts were kept. Why keep the accounts at the two places? They served only to perplex and confuse. Why should not the public accounts of this country be kept in the same plain and simple manner in which they were kept in America and France? He had mentioned this subject four years ago, and some inquiry into it was promised, but it was postponed; as all other promised inquiries would be, unless some such plan as the one he now suggested was adopted, by referring each department to the consideration of a separate committee. He would also propose that the committee should inquire, not only how the accounts were kept, but should consider the best mode of keeping them in a simple form, and without that variety which served only to confuse.—To the investigation of another committee he would submit the revenue and expenditure of those colonies which did not possess legislative assemblies. The committee should also inquire into the amount which the maintenance of such colonies cost Great Britain. He was glad to find that some notice was taken of this subject by the right hon. gentleman; but he would extend the inquiries to all colonies which had local legislatures. It was notorious that in Ceylon and other places, considerable revenues were squandered away, with-

445
out any account being rendered as to their application.—Another committee might be usefully employed in inquiring into the manner in which the civil list was expended, in England, Scotland, and Ireland; the salaries of judges, the pensions and allowances to officers of state; the expenses of palaces and parks; and all the other charges which went to make up our miscellaneous expenditure, an expenditure which amounted to 2,500,000 l. last year.—He would also have a committee to inquire into the expenditure of the army and ordnance abroad and at home. Another should consider the navy, and all the expenses of dock-yards, and marine establishments, the several items of which would occupy the attention of a committee for three months. Besides the miscellaneous payments, he would also inquire into the expenditure under the head of civil contingencies; the expenses of Downing-street; the Board of Works; the amount of law charges; the expense and application of Irish charities; the expense of convicts, and several other items, which made up the long list in that very costly department. He had no doubt, if a strict inquiry were made into these matters, that a saving might be made of 500,000 l. or 600,000 l. out of the 2,500,000 l. which they annually cost the country. He would also have a committee to inquire into the amount of our funded and unfunded debt, and the cost of its management. The committee would also have to inquire into the nature of the sinking fund, and the source from which it was derived; also into the arrangement respecting the half-pay and pensions, and also the savings' banks, on account of which so great an expense was undertaken by government. The committee would also have to consider why the South Sea company was continued, at an expense of about 12,000 l. a-year, for no other purpose than that of paying a few hundred thousand pounds.—These matters would, he thought, afford abundant occupation for the eleven committees; but if some of them should prove too heavy for one committee, subdivisions might be made of the matters referred to it. If the House seriously intended to benefit the country by inquiring into its income and expenditure, they would adopt this subdivision of labour. He would also suggest, that a general committee should be formed consisting of the chairman of all the other committees, and that
446
these, jointly, should draw up reports touching the several matters on which their respective committees had been employed. The House might reject his suggestions, in favour of the proposition of the right hon. gentleman. There was, however, this difference between the two—that the one was nugatory, and the other would be efficient. He feared the committee would not produce the efficient results which the country expected from it. Unless it reduced the civil list, and all other expenses, beginning with his majesty, as an example to the rest of the nation, the country would not be satisfied.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer[Right Hon. Henry Goulburn] was of opinion, that the proposition of the hon. member for Aberdeen, for appointing eleven or twelve separate committees instead of one, would be productive of no advantage. There would be, in the committee about to be appointed, ample opportunities of examining into the manner in which the public accounts were kept, and of amending the system wherever it might be found faulty. The hon. member had greatly exaggerated the defects of that system, when he had alluded to the marking of a stick in the Exchequer. That practice was a relic of barbarism, and had long since been discontinued. But, though he objected to the hon. member's proposition generally, he would assure him, that if there should be any particular branch of the expenditure, such, for instance, as that of the colonies, which the committee should think they could not adequately inquire into, he had no objection to delegate that particular subject to a separate committee. When he stated that, he conceivd he gave the best pledge of the spirit and intentions with which he should go into the committee. He should go into the committee with the full determination of accurately investigating, and of properly deciding upon, the several topics which would be brought under his notice; and he felt a strong conviction, that the labours of the committee would tend to reduce the public burthens, and to place the finances of the country in a materially improved condition.
The motion for the appointment of a Committee was then agreed to. After which, Mr. Secretary Peel handed up to the Speaker the following list of the Members intended to form the said Committee: viz. Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr.

447
Tierney, Mr. Herries, sir John Newport, Mr. Ward, lord viscount Althorp, Mr. Ashhurst, lord viscount Lowther, Mr. Hume, lord viscount Howick, sir Edward Knatchbull, Mr. Maberly, Mr. Home Drummond, Mr. Bankes, Mr. Alexander Baring, Mr. Robert Palmer, Mr. Littleton, Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald, sir Henry Parnell, Mr. Wilmot Horton, sir Matthew Ridley, Mr. Stanley. The Committee to have power to send for persons, papers, and records; to report from time to time, and to sit; notwithstanding any adjournment of the House, seven to be a quorum.
Mr. Baringexpressed his surprise, that so few ministers of the Crown were appointed members of the committee. The omission of the right hon. Secretary for the Colonies struck him as most extraordinary.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that the reason why more ministers were not in the list was, that the duties they had to perform occupied so much of their time, that it was impossible they could give any efficient attendance upon the committee. He had pressed his right hon. colleague to be a member of the committee; but he had refused upon the grounds just stated. He had been also desirous that the committee should have benefitted by the valuable assistance of the learned member opposite (Mr. Brougham); but the learned member had declined on account of his numerous professional avocations.
Mr. Baringexpressed a hope that the right hon. Secretary for the Colonies would re-consider the determination to which he had come. Without meaning any disrespect to the members composing the committee, he might say, that the aggregate amount of their financial knowledge, bore no proportion to that possessed by the right hon. gentleman; and that if they were deprived of his services, he should consider it a very serious disadvantage to the country.
Mr. Broughambegged to add his entreaties to those of his hon. friend, that the name of the right hon. Secretary might be included in the list. He was especially anxious to give expression to what was the deliberate opinion of the House; namely, that the assistance of the right hon. gentleman was of the utmost value. He trusted that nothing had happened lately, and that nothing could happen, to make such an omission necessary; for nothing could remove the rooted conviction of the House, in favour of the proposition of his
448
hon. friend, that the knowledge of all the other members of the committee combined was as dust in the balance, compared with the resources of which the right hon. Secretary could bring into play. As to himself, he wished to express to the right hon. gentleman his thanks for the courtesy which dictated the communication that morning made to him; proposing to place him on the committee. Whether or not the House would have sanctioned the proposition, he certainly should have felt himself under the necessity of declining the appointment—not that he was without a desire to advance the objects of the committee—not that he felt any disrespect towards any party concerned in it—not that he was without great confidence, in the good likely to ensue from its labours—but that attendance on its sittings would interfere with his professional avocations. With respect to the propositions of his hon. friend, the member for Montrose, he thought that much good might result from the adoption of his suggestions, in consequence of their being likely to ensure what the House and the country so earnestly desired—speedy reports. By dividing themselves into committees of six or seven each, they might pursue their investigations with infinitely more effect, than they otherwise could do.
Mr. Secretary Huskissonsaid, he considered it necessary to say a few words, after the manner in which he had been appealed to by the hon. member for Callington, seconded, as that appeal was, by the hon. and learned gentleman. He certainly had, in the first communication with his right hon. colleague, on the subject of becoming a member of the committee, declined the proposition on account of the numerous official avocations which pressed upon him, and occupied nearly the whole of his time. Having, however, for a long series of years devoted the whole of his time to the public service, so far as his health and strength would permit, he was now willing, if it were in accordance with the feelings of the House, to attend the committee occasionally, and give so much of his assistance to it, as his health would allow. On this, as on all other occasions, the House might command his best services.
Mr. Secretary Huskisson'sname was accordingly added, by Mr. Peel, to the list of the committee. After which, the House adjourned.