Sitting of 4 February 1828

KING'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
Lord Palmerstonpresented the King's Answer to the Address of Thanks as follows:—
"I thank you for this loyal and dutiful Address. The assurances of your cordial co-operation, in advancing the welfare and prosperity of my People, are highly satisfactory to me. You may rely upon my unwearied endeavours to maintain the national interests and honour, and to preserve to this country and the world, the inestimable blessings of peace."

CORPORATION AND TEST ACTS.
Mr. John Smith, in presenting a petition from the Unitarian congregation assembling in the New Gravel-pit Meeting House at Hackney, praying for the repeal of these acts, said, he was bound to observe that it was signed by individuals of talent, wealth, and moral excellence, inferior to no class of the community. There was one point connected with the numerous classes of persons, of whom the petitioners formed a branch, on which he was anxious to say a few words. It had been stated in the newspapers and elsewhere, that the Dissenters had coalesced with the Catholics, for the purpose of obtaining, in conjunction, the removal of their mutual disabilities. Now, he was authorised positively to state, that they had done no such thing. A united committee had been appointed by the Dissenters, to whom was intrusted the management of the application to parliament for a repeal of the Corporation and Test Acts. That committee, which, he could say, without fear of contradic-

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tion, spoke the sentiments of the Dissenters at large, had that very day entered into the following resolution: "The United Committee of Dissenters, acting on their own best judgment, and under the recommendation of many of their parliamentary friends, have come to the resolution, that it is not expedient for the Dissenters to unite their applications to parliament with those of the Roman Catholics; but they distinctly disavow the inference, that their acting separately, and independently, proceeds from any hostility to the claims of that numerous and respectable body." He could say, from his own knowledge, that there never was a more scandalous calumny than the statement which had been so frequently made, that the Dissenters, as a body, were adverse to the claims of the Roman Catholics.
Ordered to lie on the table.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—CHANGE OF ADMINISTRATION.
Lord Palmerston Lord Palmerston moved the order of the day, for going into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. Liddellsaid, that as it was one of the most important rights which a member of that House possessed, to deliver his opinions on such an occasion as the present, he trusted that no apology was necessary, when he stood up to express, in as few words as possible, his sentiments on the situation in which the government was placed, and to declare the grounds on which alone he could give it is humble support. If any such apology were necessary, it was, he conceived, to be found in the fact, that in the last twelve months the country had seen various important changes in the ministry: that during that period there had been no fewer than four different prime ministers. Twelve months had not gone over their heads since the great struggle took place between Mr. Canning and the powerful party by whom he was opposed, and who, though then defeated, had again gained the ascendancy. Many of those who stood by Mr. Canning in that time of trial had ceased to have any connexion with the ministry: a few of them still remained in authority, For himself, he could truly say, that no man was a more ardent admirer, no man a more cordial supporter, of Mr. Canning. It was true that that great man was no more: they no longer had the benefit of his experience and his talents; but it was to be
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hoped that his example would still be useful to his country,—that the mens divinior which accompanied him through his splendid career, had shed a light on our foreign and domestic policy, which would serve to guide those by whom he had been succeeded. Although, by the death of that lamented individual, the main strength of the existing administration was withdrawn, it should have had his feeble support; but he was sorry to say that it had not proceeded with the vigour which might have been expected, and that it suffered itself to be dissolved, untouched by any hostile collision. He now came to the period when, called on by the monarch, the present cabinet was formed by the noble duke who was placed at its head. For that illustrious individual, no man could entertain a higher feeling of admiration. He had been the saviour of his country in the most arduous crisis that she had ever experienced. By his admirable conduct in the field, he had given peace to desolated Europe, and had justly earned the gratitude of his country. But, in spite of that noble duke's unquestionable abilities, he could not view his translation from the post of commander-in-chief of the army, to that of first lord of the Treasury with satisfaction. His original part was so well cast, his value to the army was so well known, that the public opinion was united on this point, that he could not be placed in a more proper situation than that which, as a military man, he so ably and advantageously filled. He therefore regretted, as he believed the country in general did, that the change had taken place. The duke of Wellington himself must have felt some repugnance at the situation in which he had been placed. It was reported, and the report had not been denied, that Mr. Canning had written to the duke, and had pointed out the incompatibility of his holding the two offices which he had subsequently filled. In the propriety of the sentiments contained in that letter, the noble duke was said to have agreed. In the House of Lords last session, the noble duke had himself declared, that he could not, with propriety, fill the two situations. This was upon record;* and he trusted that the noble duke would not act differently in the present year from the sentiments which he had uttered in the last. Highly as he
* See vol. xvii. P. 461.

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thought of the noble duke's abilities, and of his firm character, still he could not bring himself to believe that he possessed those Atlean shoulders, which would enable him to support the whole weight of the administration, together with the duties of the War-office. The noble duke had gained fame and credit for the British army, he had added honour and renown to his country as a warrior, but it did not therefore follow that his talents were adapted to the situation which he now held. There was another gentleman connected with the present administration, relative to whom he wished to say a word or two. He alluded to the Secretary of State for the Home Department. The return of that right hon. gentleman to office was hailed with satisfaction by a large portion of the public, but, upon one important question, he held sentiments exceedingly different from those held by that right hon. gentleman. He was aware that it was precisely on account of the line of conduct pursued by him in reference to that topic, that the right hon. gentleman was looked upon by very many loyal and well-meaning subjects as one of the main pillars of the state. But he must say, that if the right hon. gentleman's claims to the confidence of the country were founded upon no other grounds than his policy upon that question, what appeared to others to constitute him a pillar of the state, operated as a barrier of exclusion to thousands, nay millions, of their fellow-subjects, who had for years been waiting at the threshold of the constitution, imploring to be admitted beneath its roof. He hoped that the principles of free trade would not be abandoned. He was desirous to see those principles acted upon, with judicious modifications. With regard to Ireland, something, he felt, must be done for that distracted country. Concession ought to be resorted to, not coercion. If any measures of a coercive nature were brought forward before concession was tried to its fullest extent, such measures should have his reprobation. It was time for them to shape their course anew—to choose between peace and war, loyalty and rebellion, tranquillity and convulsion. The course which he had described was the only one which he could support, with justice to his own character, and to the desire which he should always entertain of preserving the confidence of his constituents.
The House having resolved itself into the committee, lord Palmerston moved, "That a Supply be granted to his Majesty."
Mr. Humehoped that, before any money was asked for on account of the supply, the whole of the estimates for the year would be laid before the House. Nothing could be more disadvantageous than the practice of calling for money, and obtaining it, by dribblets, while the House was in ignorance of what the extent of the demand would be. He should certainly oppose any grant, until all the charges for the year were on the table.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, that the estimates for the more considerable sources of expense, the army, navy, and ordnance, would be upon the table before any vote was proposed; but some of the less important accounts, it was impossible to have ready until a later period in the session.
Mr. Humesaw nothing impossible in the case, and thought it absolutely necessary that the miscellaneous estimates should be produced before any money was voted. These last accounts generally amounted to two or three millions. If ever there was a time when it was necessary to adopt a clear mode of proceeding with regard to the finances, the present was that moment.
Mr. Maberlysaid, that the miscellaneous estimates had, of late years, arisen to an alarming height. He therefore hoped, that as the country had got a new ministry, every facility would be afforded the House for watching the progress of these expenses. He would oppose every grant, until the whole of the estimates for the year should be known.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, that the army, navy, and ordnance estimates, being founded upon the cost of existing establishments, were capable of being furnished early. The miscellaneous estimates, as there was more information necessary to calculate them, could not be produced so soon in the session.
Sir. J. Sebrighthoped that the House would vote no money until the whole of the estimates were before them. It was now necessary to look to the expenditure, not only of every million, but of every shilling of the public money. He pressed this point the more, because he understood that large expenses had been recently incurred for which there was no sufficient warrant. He alluded to the

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sums which had been laid out in the repairs at Windsor, and in the improvement of the parks. He had not opposed the vote for the repairs of Windsor castle; but that vote had been limited to a specific sum. He had heard, that that sum had been very far exceeded; and he thought it fit that the House should know upon what authority the expense in question had been undertaken, and to what length it had extended. He trusted that the House would try the possibility of producing the miscellaneous accounts by refusing to vote any money until they were upon the table.
Mr. G. Dawsonsaid, he was satisfied, that there was no disposition to withhold from the House any estimates; and that the whole would be furnished with all possible expedition.
Sir J. Sebrightexpressed his satisfaction at the assurances thus given. A new administration was now commencing its operations, and it could not do any thing that would be more satisfactory to the public, than by promoting inquiry into these subjects. He had not risen with any feeling of enmity towards the present administration. It had never been his practice to enter the ranks of opposition to a government; and, on the other hand, he had never ranged himself as a supporter of any, except that of the late Mr. Canning. Then, indeed, he had thought it his duty to support, as far as he could, an administration which he considered likely to be so beneficial to the country. But it did not follow that the new administration should find an opponent in him. Many persons objected to the duke of Wellington as rime minister. So for as that appointment went it had his warmest approbation. One of the objections urged against the noble duke's fitness for that office was, that he had passed a great portion of his life in military service. So far from looking upon that as a disqualifying circumstance, he was of opinion that the noble duke could not have been brought up in a better school. He had always had great objects before him to decide upon, and great interests to consider; and those habits of command would qualify him better for the leader of an administration, than a mere acquaintance with the routine of office. In the noble duke the country would at least find habits of decision; which was a point of first-rate consideration in the character of every minister; and he (sir J. Sebright) doubted not, that
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by a sedulous restriction of the expenditure of the country, as far as was consistent, the noble duke would become as popular' a minister, as he already was a general.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, that the repairs of Windsor Castle had undoubtedly exceeded the estimate; but that excess had not arisen out of change, in the original plan, but from the state of the general building; which had been found in a condition which could not be foreseen when the estimate was framed. He believed it would be fully proved, that no blame rested upon the commissioners, or upon the architect.
Sir Joseph Yorkesaid, it was so much the object of the hon. member for Aberdeen to object to a supply being granted as to have the means of squaring the general expenditure of the country with its income. No doubt it was necessary to support the army and the navy; and there were some extras which it was equally necessary to support; but he hoped the new government would set to work, and take care, while they supported what was right, to lop off what was superfluous and extravagant. He could not agree with the hon. baronet, who was so pleased that they had got a military man to reign over them. He had rather it had been some one else. It was quite a choaker to him. He had no doubt as to the noble duke's decision of character, and that he would be able to keep the cabinet in good order [a laugh]; and he wished his noble relation had had a little of the same sort of spunk. Still he did not feel the military school the best school for a statesman. Nevertheless, if the noble duke laid by his habits of the sword a little he might make a good and a popular minister. As for his not being in the habit of making long speeches, he considered that circumstance a particularly fortunate one; two thirds of that which was called eloquence only tended to blink the question at issue.
The motion was agreed to.

ROMAN CATHOLIC LAND-TAX BILL.
Mr. George Bankessaid, that he rose to ask leave to bring in a bill, to which he could anticipate no objection. The question had been, brought before the legislature thirty years ago, with the intention of remedying the defect to which his motion now had reference. Last session he had had the honour of introducing a similar bill to the

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House; and had it not been for the abrupt ermination of the session, he had no doubt that it would have met with the same success in the other House as it had done n that. But whether or no such would nave been the case, he had at least a right to anticipate that there was a feeling in its favour. He was aware that there were some difficulties in the way of the measure, but he did not anticipate that they would be sufficient to negative the bill; and he trusted that, by the attention of parliament, those difficulties might be removed. It was not on his own suggestion, but of others, that he offered this bill to the notice of the House; and he requested to call their attention to the petition which had been presented from the Roman Catholics, complaining of the disadvantages under which they laboured on that account; and he did so the rather, as the petition was not only numerously signed, but likewise by persons of consideration and consequence, amongst whom were the names of lords Shrewsbury, Dormer, Stafford, sir T. Stanley, sir R. Bedding-field, and others. The law respecting the land-tax had been passed in the 4th of William and Mary, in the year 1692; and the rate imposed by it was 4s. in the pound on all landed estates throughout the kingdom, but those who should refuse to take certain oaths; so that, by this arrangement, the Catholics were burthened, without any relief being afforded to the Protestants. The law continued in this state till the year 1794; when it was first proposed to exempt the Catholics from this very unjust penalty. But the legislature, had not rightly considered the origin of the act; and, therefore, they had not adopted the proper method of affording relief. It was not fair that what was taken off the Catholics should be thrown upon the rest of the kingdom; and for that reason, as the land-tax had never been raised generally on the whole kingdom, but on divisions of hundreds, which were made in the time of William, and were continued to the present day, the parliament had found itself placed in a difficulty. The consequence had been, that it was expressly provided by that act, that the deficiency should not be thrown upon the public at large, but confined to the division in which the reduction took place. This, however, had been found by experience to be so embarrassing, that except in those divisions where fresh lands
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had been inclosed, no relief at all was afforded; and instances had actually occurred, where, a Catholic being possessed of the whole hundred, it was impossible that the arrangement could be of any benefit to him, as there was none but his own land on which he might throw it. This act had continued in operation through 1795 and 1796, until the year 1797, when the Land Tax Redemption act was introduced; and in that a clause had been inserted, which, it was supposed, would be adequate to the difficulty: but it had again been found inefficient. In cases where the hundreds were charged at more than 4s. in the pound, it was competent to certain commissioners to reduce the amount; but this was no benefit to the Catholics, for there were very few places in the kingdom where the rate was so high as 4s. The total sum raised in king William's time was about two millions; and as only the same amount was collected now, it was clear that there was no necessity for so high a rate as then, as the value of lands since those times had increased prodigiously; and, consequently, a rate of from one to two shillings was on the average sufficient to cover the amount required. This was the outline of the grievance of which the Roman Catholics complained; and he could not but suppose that it was a real grievance, as he did not conceive that so many noblemen and gentlemen would petition parliament against an imaginary evil; and if the House, as he did, believed it to be true, he had no doubt that it would join with him most cordially in endeavouring to do away with the injustice. Perhaps it would be said, that the land-tax was unequally raised throughout the country—that in some places a rate of one penny or two-pence was required, and in others a rate of two shillings from Protestants: he did not deny that this was the case; but how it had originated it was not easy to decide. It was alleged by some, that their ancestors, when the tax was first proposed, were so loyal and well-affected towards king William, that they consented to pay a higher rate than they need to have done, and felt pride in contributing more than was necessary; though, perhaps, the reason might be more fairly found in the fact, that those counties where the land-tax was most heavy, were the home counties; which in those days were richer and better able to pay than the midland and more northern

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counties, which, compared with what they are now, were very poor. But, whether the inequality arose from these or any other causes, he could not think that, because the Protestants were not equally assessed, the Catholics were entitled to no relief. The principle of the measure he was about to propose had already been avowed by parliament; and if it could find any way of getting rid of the grievance, he was persuaded the House would do so. That it was practicable he firmly believed; and he wished it to be understood, that he only proposed to relieve those cases where a specific grievance could be proved: but it would not answer the purpose of those whose cause he was then advocating, to be put back as they had been in 1794; for, although that bill had proposed to afford them relief, it had done no such thing. It was not until the subject had been repeatedly pressed upon his notice, that he consented to undertake the task, but he felt himself bound to say, that he did so with unqualified pleasure. The hon. gentleman then moved, "That leave be given to bring in a bill to relieve Roman Catholics from double assessments to the Land Tax."
Mr. Hume, in seconding the motion, said, he had heard that the payments of the family of only one Catholic gentleman, sir Richard Beddingfield, had amounted, under this double assessment, to 50,000 l. The act under which the Catholics were supposed to receive relief in these cases empowered the commissioners to apportion the sum thus taken off the lands of the Catholics, upon the property of other persons in the same township or district. That course had been successfully followed by the commissioners, of which an hon. friend near him (Mr. Hurst) was one, in the district of Horsham, and he believed without any inconvenience or complaint; but, in other parts of the country, from whence the complaints now came, he had heard it was impossible to give such relief under any act which had been passed upon the subject. The late secretary to the Treasury, had distinctly declared, when the government were applied to on the subject, that no relief could be afforded to the Catholics which would not produce a loss to the Treasury to the full amount of that double land-tax from which the Catholic might be exempted. So many changes had taken place, since 1798, in the state of the property subject to the land-tax; so much of it had changed possessors; so
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much of it had been redeemed; that any attempt to spread the burthen of the double tax upon other parts of the same district, would be found impossible. Now that the evil was known, and that it was evident no remedy existed, the House must see the propriety of acceding to the motion.
Mr. Hurstsaid, he had acted in the capacity of a commissioner, and had been enabled to relieve some families who had been assessed for the double tax from the time of king William. Great difficulties at first occurred in throwing the sum upon any other property; but after a laborious investigation, the commissioners discovered lands which had never been taxed at all; and upon them they imposed the burthen from which they relieved those who sought relief under the act. But he apprehended that great difficulties must attend such, experiments elsewhere; and as the whole amount of this double tax was small, he apprehended there could be no objection to grant the relief proposed by the bill.
Mr. Curteissaid, there had been a manifest disposition on the part of the legislature to relieve the Catholics from this double assessment. The manner in which a similar measure was suffered to pass last session, was extremely indecorous. The House was not aware of the extent of the sacrifice which this bill required. If, as he believed, relief was to be had under the act at present existing, and without any sacrifice of revenue, he saw no reason why they should assent to the proposed bill.
Mr. Baringthought, that, if there was any case in which economical considerations should be disregarded, it was that which involved in its execution an act of positive cruelty and injustice. The House was not only called upon to grant the boon required upon every principle of justice, but in accordance with a principle recognized by a previous act of parliament. They were not now called upon to grant a relief which ought not be withheld; but they were required to carry into effect a measure of relief, the necessity of which has been admitted, and sanctioned by act of parliament. The hon. member for Sussex had said, that those who advised this measure had not looked into the case of the sufferers, and asserted that the act gave relief in every case where the Land-tax exceeded 4s. in the pound; but the fact was, that in many cases the tax did not amount even to half of that sum,

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and those persons were therefore placed out of the operation of the relief intended by the legislature; for their condition rendered it impossible that they could make a demand under the provisions of the act. The bill passed in 1794 was in fact, no relief at all; and some other measure ought to be adopted. It might be proposed to throw an additional burthen on the Protestant landholder in the same hundred; but this was equally unjust. He could see no remedy but that of making the loss fall on the public at large. Independent of the injustice of throwing it on the Protestants, there were many instances in which the Land-tax had been redeemed by the greater number of landed proprietors in certain districts; and if such a mode of relief were resorted to, the burthen might fall on one individual. He could see no remedy but by a sacrifice of the public income; and, considering the injustice of the tax, he was sure that every member would submit to such a step.
Mr. G. Dawsonsaid, that although he opposed what was called Catholic emancipation, yet none of the reasons which influenced him upon that question, had any bearing upon the present. As the justice of the proposed measure appeared to be generally admitted, it would not be necessary for him to say any thing about it; although he thought that the injustice of the present system had been overrated. That injustice could operate only in a few instances. He believed that, by appealing to the commissioners, relief might be obtained; but only by throwing the surcharge upon the Protestants. This operation was doubtless very complicated, from the many statutes upon the subject, and from the Land-tax, in the time of Mr. Pitt, having been made redeemable. The principal sufferer was, undoubtedly, sir R. Beddingfield. On his estate there was a parish where the act might be brought into operation; but, unfortunately, he was the owner of the whole parish, and all the inhabitants were Roman Catholics; so that there could be no apportionment through which relief might reach them. He could see no remedy for the grievance, but an act which would at once relieve the Catholics, burthening the Protestants of the same district. The loss to the revenue, he trusted, would be trifling; but it would be only an act of justice.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

BOARD OF WORKS.
Mr. Bankessaid, he had a motion to submit to the House, through which he hoped to be able to throw some light upon the conduct of the Board of Works. When the office of surveyor-general was first instituted, it was held by sir W. Chambers, but the surveyor-general not being in these times a professional man, he could not exercise that control over the expenditure of his office, which it was the intention of parliament to ensure. Very large sums were lavished upon works the most tasteless and the most inconveniently contrived, that it was possible to imagine, while there seemed to be no other control over the actions of the architect than his own whim or caprice. There were, in fact, three architects whose power in their respective governments was as absolute as that of any Roman praetor in his province. So jealous were these gentlemen of their authority, that for one architect to pass the brook or rivulet which separated his province from that of another, was an infringement upon the rights and an insult to the dignity, of his brother architect, whose province he thus invaded. The government, therefore, instead of having, as was intended, three architects, of whose united abilities they could avail themselves, were limited to one, who never consulted his supposed coadjutors, and who was perfectly absolute in his own district. The consequence was, that gentlemen saw many fine and expensive buildings, but not one, either well adapted to the purpose for which it was intended, or calculated to reflect credit upon the national taste. In order, if possible, to ascertain the reason of this failure, he begged leave to move for "an account of the Salary and Commission granted to each of the three Architects attached to the Office of Works, under Statute of 54 Geo. 3, c. 157, and of the amount of the same, since the appointment of each of them; and also, of any payments or allowances made to each of them during that period, in respect of any of the Royal Palaces, or other public Buildings."
Mr. Humesaid, that the late chancellor of the Exchequer, lord Goderich, had rendered himself responsible for the good taste of all public buildings in future. On him the blame ought to fall, and not upon the surveyor-general, or the architects.
Mr. Bankesdid not intend to cast the slightest blame upon the surveyor-general, who was a highly honourable man. The truth

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was, that not being a professional man, he knew nothing of the business of the office, and left the whole to the architects. As to the pledge of the chancellor of the Exchequer upon the subject of taste, all he knew was, that it had not been redeemed, and he did not think it was a matter of which any chancellor of the Exchequer ought to take cognizance.
The motion was agreed to.