Sitting of 1 April 1828

POOR-LAWS IN IRELAND.
Mr. James Grattanpresented a petition from the silk
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weavers of Dublin, praying that the House would make some permanent provision for the Poor of Ireland. The hon. gentleman impressed upon the House the expediency of attending to the prayer of the petition, which related to a subject which was every day exciting additional attention in Dublin, Cork, and other parts of Ireland. He was decidedly of opinion, that if hon. gentlemen were to look to the various returns on the table they would be convinced of the necessity of some measure for enforcing the attention of the gentry of Ireland to the means of employment for the poor, in the view of their maintenance, instead of resorting to a system of emigration. The petitioners complained of the distress brought upon the country by the drain of capital from it, in consequence of absenteeism. His own opinion was, that some system of Poor-laws must be established in Ireland. He had himself ascertained recently in Dublin, that three thousand looms in that city were unemployed, and that the persons dependent on them, to the number of twenty-one thousand, were in a state of the utmost distress.
Sir J. Newportthought that the Poor-laws and Poor-rates, if established in Ireland, would be productive of most extensive mischief, and that a very small portion only of the fund would reach the hands of the poor. He should protest against the introduction of them into that country, as the most dreadful visitation, that could be inflicted on it.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgeraldsaid, that the public opinion in Ireland was not favourable to the introduction of that system. The statement of his hon. friend was calculated to turn away the attention of parliament, from the consideration of the real and practical remedies for Irish grievances.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that his attention had often been directed to this subject, but the only conclusion to which he could come was, that the introduction of the English system of Poor-laws into Ireland would be most injurious to that country. Indeed, he could scarcely imagine any new country, into which the system of Poor-laws that, under various circumstances, had grown up in England, could be planted with safety. Then, the peculiar state of the country should be considered; and, looking to the tendency to an increased population already in Ireland, he should rather think that the

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application of those laws to it would, by holding out a settlement to the poor, remove every check on population, and encourage more early marriages, and a still greater subdivision of the land. Then, as to the administration of the machinery, he could not see how it could be effected in the absence of the resident gentry. At the same time he was willing to admit, that the situation in which Ireland stood towards England, particularly in relation to the Poor-laws, was most unsatisfactory; but then, as to the application of the English Poor-laws to Ireland, even though its policy were allowed, there could not be found for years a machinery competent to execute the system, Still there were many circumstances that pressed the consideration of it on parliament; such as the relative situation of the two countries since the Union, the facilities of access in consequence of steam navigation, and other matters, which, though not sufficient to induce him to consent to the introduction of the Poor-laws into Ireland, were enough to call for the attention of parliament, particularly so far as they tended to throw the burthen of Irish poverty on England.
Mr. Wilmot Horton, after declaring his entire concurrence in the opinions of his right hon. friend, took that occasion to deny that he had ever contemplated removing the unemployed poor to foreign countries; for he could never be brought to think that British colonies were foreign countries. If the poor could not get employment at home, what was to be done with them? Would it be said, that they should be supplied with work and subsistence at the expense of a parliamentary grant? If hon. members would say so, then he would join issue with them on that ground, and contend, that such parliamentary grant would be better spent in taking them to the colonies where there was much land unappropriated, than to expend it on them at home, where they could find neither cheap land nor profitable employment. The attempt to give parliamentary support at home to the unemployed men, women, and children, would cost no less a sum than 300,000 l. a-year, taking the subsistence for each human being at its lowest rate of 3l. a head. As to the introduction of the Poor-laws into Ireland, under its present circumstances, it would be a hopeless proceeding, as the only effect it could produce
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would be to monopolise all the rental of the land. He would admit, however, that the closer admixture of the two countries since the Union, and the facility of transmission by steam navigation, must ultimately produce a state of things in which it would be found necessary to equalize the laws relative to the poor in both countries; and the system of English Poor-laws, if judiciously modified, would, he had no doubt, be productive of good; provided relief were given only to poverty brought on by old age and accidental infirmities, and if the children were not reared in the expectation that they were, in case of poverty, to have a lien on the land. As to the plan of supporting the poor by expending money in procuring employment for them, he was sure that 100,000 l. spent in creating that artificial employment, would but aggravate the evil; as the labour would produce no return for the capital so expended on it. He should, however, have no objection to the expenditure of a moderate sum in that way, as an experimental measure, if an object, such as the cultivation of waste lands, could be found, of a nature likely to give a fair return for the outlay of capital. On the whole, the present condition of the pauper population of the three kingdoms, was such as called for the most serious attention of parliament.
Mr. Calcraftapproved of the principle of the Poor-laws, and had always ascribed the evils arising from them to the relaxed administration of them. The introduction of them into Ireland, he would oppose, as tending to produce more permanent destitution in that country than existed there at present; nor could he see what good emigration could do, as he was sure, if a hundred thousand paupers were transported to the colonies to morrow, the gap would be filled up, in a few years, with a hundred thousand more as needy as the former. Before the government adopted any measure of the kind, they ought to inquire into and remedy the grievances of the poor. There were many other remedies for the evils of Ireland. He was sure there would be neither peace nor happiness in Ireland until Catholic emancipation was granted. This should be the foundation of all remedial measures: then the expenses of government ought to be reduced to the lowest possible scale. In fine, he could not see how emigration could cure the evils of England; or the

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introduction of the Poor-laws heal the grievances of Ireland.
Mr. Monckthought that the evils of Ireland arose from the fact, that her population was a nation of producers, and not of producers and consumers, like that of England. Absenteeism also was another cause. The Poor-laws of England were the sole partition between English comforts and Irish misery. If it were possible to reduce England to the same situation as Ireland now found herself in, the landlords of both countries would become mere exporters, instead of importers and consumers of produce.
Colonel Trenchwas sorry to say that there was but too much truth in the statement which the hon. member had just made. He hoped, however, that the true remedy was about to be applied to the miseries and evils with which Ireland had been too long afflicted. He could assure the House, that there was an immense desire throughout the Irish population, to learn by their own exertions and labour an honest livelihood. The best proof of this fact was to be found in the constant emigration of the Irish poor to England; a grievance so much and so justly complained of. The true cause of the overpopulation of Ireland, and of all the troubles which ensued from it, was the infinite subdivision of the land; and he could not help saying, that the main spring of the immediate evils which oppressed her was a circumstance to which little or no allusion had been made; namely, the anxious desire of every body who was an Irish land-owner to produce a crop of free-holders of the smallest possible quantity of land.
Mr. Crokersaid, it was his firm conviction, that the state of England and Scotland, labouring as they now did under what he must call the infliction of Irish emigration, would oblige this country to turn her attention towards the necessity of providing some great measure of relief for Irish pauperism.
Mr. W. Lambwas of opinion, that the Secretary of State for the Home Department had stated the most unanswerable reasons why it was impossible to extend to Ireland the Poor-laws of England, in any considerable degree. He was quite willing to allow, that much of the evil which had arisen in Ireland, might possibly be owing to the deficiency of Poor-laws in that country. But before parlia-
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ment attempted to apply those laws to Ireland, let them wait, to see to what extent they could first be reformed in England. With regard to the plans which had been suggested by a right hon. gentleman, he must observe, that the financial difficulties of a country could not be relieved by schemes which began with borrowing large sums of money, on the security of a distant prospect of very doubtful returns. Neither was it possible that one part of the empire, like Ireland, could be benefitted in her own case, by that which was in effect a loss to the empire at large. The only remedies which he could imagine for a country labouring under the difficulties he spoke of, were patience, perseverance, rigid economy, strict punctuality, determined enterprise, and unwearied labour. These were hard conditions, he admitted; but they were the conditions upon which alone the affairs of states could be re-established, and which were at the same time the conditions of the tenure of our common existence.
Ordered to lie on the table.

WEST INDIA PRODUCE — DUTY ON SUGAR.
Mr. C. N. Pallmersaid, he had to present a petition to the House, and his great respect for the body who had intrusted it to his care, induced him to entreat their patient attention to its important contents. It proceeded from a great national interest—an interest at one time, and he hoped still, a cherished object of the country's favour—one of the principal sources of her maritime strength and commercial prosperity. It was from the West-India planters and merchants of London, and it prayed for a reduction of the tax upon their sugar. He presented the petition to the House, divested of any political expression or feeling, as a plain, argumentative appeal to their impartiality and their justice, founded upon figures which could not err, and facts which could not be denied. The petition described the rise and progress of the sugar duties from 3s. 5d. per cwt to the present high rate of 27 s., and it particularly adverted to the great addition which was made to the duties during the late war, under the express provision of the act of parliament, that the same were for the purposes of the war alone. Twelve years had since elapsed; every other war duty had been removed; many other taxes had been

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taken of altogether; but the duty on sugar remained the same. Upon representations having been made on the subject to former ministers, it had been answered, that the West Indies derived certain advantages from bounty upon the export of refined goods—that bounty had been since taken away, and the tax still continued. At the close of the war a large accession was made to our colonial possessions, and these, with the addition of the Mauritius, added materially to an oppressed and overloaded market; and yet, from the heavy tax which it had to sustain, not only had the consumption of sugar failed to keep pace with that of other articles, but the poorer classes had been entirely debarred from it; and even with those classes which had been accustomed to its use, its consumption had not increased, in proportion to the increased population of the country; and it was proved by the most authentic documents, that the consumption had been sensibly augmented or diminished, as the average price of the article had risen or fallen— that, independent of the general rule, that a diminution of price necessarily produced an increased consumption, that result had been practically illustrated in the article of coffee, in respect to which, as the petition shewed, a reduction of two-thirds of the duty, produced in the year a revenue of more than double the amount; and a partial restoration of the duty produced a proportionate diminution of revenue'—that the article of sugar, if placed within their reach, would be consumed by the very lowest classes, and in such case the consumers would be scarcely less numerous than the consumers of bread; and that to the inhabitants of the sister kingdom, if it could be supplied at an attainable price, it would not fail to afford not only comfort, but great moral benefits—that the West-India planters were essentially British land-owners, cultivating articles in amount from eight to nine millions sterling value, creating a revenue of nearly six millions, being upon the whole produce about seventy-five per cent, and upon sugar upwards of one hundred per cent— that sugar and coffee were to the colonial, what grain was to the British agricultural interest, and the export of British goods to the West-India colonies, diminished as it was, by their necessities and other causes still amounted to nearly five millions; their commerce employed four
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million ton of British shipping, and from twenty to twenty-five thousand men—that the average price of sugar during the last year, which was higher by many shillings than the five preceding years, was 63 s. per cwt. of which 27 s. was paid to the government, 8s. to the British ship-owner and merchant, 18 s. to the expenses of cultivation, leaving about 10 s. to the grower, or somewhere about one penny per lb., the government receiving a tax of three hundred per cent on the profit of the grower. The petition concluded by praying such an ample reduction of duty as would ensure to the grower and consumer a participation in the relief, give encouragement to British shipping, and the consumption of British manufactures, and increase in a very material degree the comforts of the labouring poor of the whole empire. Such was the petition. He trusted that it would, at least, have the effect of laying before a misinformed public the real merits of the case, and the remarkable fact, that the tax to the government, and not the profit of the grower of West-India sugar, was the real cause of its high price to the community. He implored the House to bestow upon it a more than ordinary attention, whether they regarded it with reference to colonial interests, the interests of the manufactures and shipping of the country, the national revenue, or the more important consideration of the comforts of the labouring classes in the colonies, and in this country.
Mr. C. Grantdeclined at that moment to enter upon the important subject referred to in the petition. He was not insensible to its importance; but another and more fitting opportunity would arrive for discussing it.
Ordered to lie on the table.

SOUTH AMERICAN TRADE.
Sir Robert Wilson, in rising to bring forward his motion for a Return of the Official Value of Exports to the States of South America, said that he felt some embarrassment, because he had to reply to accusations against those states, which came not from unknown or irresponsible parties, but from those who, by their station, gave; greater weight to the charges they brought. He did so, however, because he was desirous that the South American States should see, that if there were persons who traduced them unjustly, and used harsh: and severe language towards them in this

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country, there were others, who, wholly disinterested, would come forward to vindicate their character. It did unfortunately happen, that the South American States had enemies in this country—persons who saw with regret their emancipation from tyranny, and who did not look upon them with a friendly eye, because they had released themselves from those aristocratic pretensions, which, however respected and respectable, were more frequently accompanied with injury than benefit. There were also persons who had the same feelings from party motives, and who, from dislike to that great man now no more (Mr. Canning) who had interposed the Ægis of England between South America and the powers confederated against them, were disposed to undervalue what he had taken so just a pride in bringing forward. That attempt, however, was vain, as the name of that individual was consecrated by America whilst living, and the order of respect to his memory, which had been published by the government of Mexico, and by the liberator of Colombia, had been merely a compliance with the unanimous feelings of the people. The hon. and gallant member then said, that the charges made were, that one state, for unworthy motives, preferred a corsair war to the benefits arising from peace and industry; the next assertion was, that the trade with South America generally, was of comparatively little value to the British empire; and the third charge was, that in all pecuniary transactions with this country, these States had played only the character of swindlers, and had brought nothing but infamy on themselves and their friends. With respect to the first charge, that Buenos Ayres had only carried on a corsair warfare, to the prejudice of others and the benefit of themselves, the reverse was the fact, because Brazil was the only state which gained by it; and, at all events, before these charges were made, it should be shewn that Buenos Ayres had rejected the propositions which had been made. Here the hon. member went into details of the trade of Buenos Ayres during the years 1823, 1824, and 1825, shewing that their exports averaged eleven millions of dollars, and their imports eight; the profits of which were much greater than any they could derive from a state of war. Then, as to the value of the South American trade generally, the value of that to Brazil, from 1822 to
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1826, amounted to between fifteen and sixteen millions sterling, while to other parts of that continent it came to near fifteen millions and those sums nearly comprised the direct trade with England, although it was much greater through Jamaica and other islands, which had constant intercourse with the Spanish Main. All the accounts, too, which had lately arrived, shewed that those States were recovering from the depreciation caused by the supply being at first greater than the demand, and that the consumption of British manufactures was greatly on the increase. He did not deem it necessary to go at length into mining speculations, but thought that if properly managed they might ultimately succeed; there was this strong argument in their favour, that in Mexico alone, the quantity of bullion produced from the year 1733 to 1826, was on the average 3,000,000 l. sterling per annum. He then proceeded to notice the advance made in refinement and civilization, the number of books and pamphlets that were circulated there, and the general extension of intellectual and moral culture. He also called the attention of the House to the circumstance of slavery having been abolished. It was to the consumption, by these countries, of our manufactures, that we were to look for the employment of our population, and it would ill become us, like so many children, to be pettish and discontented because a temporary re-action had occurred. Columbus did not change his course, though apparently adverse circumstances arose; neither should this country, on the first appearance of unfavourable circumstances, give up all that she had so nobly achieved. It was by perseverance alone that we could hope to reap the benefits of what we had accomplished. The last charge to which he would apply himself was that of swindling. The South American States had been accused of defrauding the people of this country; now, there never was a charge more completely destitute of foundation. It was alleged that two and twenty millions had been lost to this country, in consequence of its pecuniary transactions with the States of South America. Now, the fact was, that only sixteen or seventeen millions had been subscribed, and of that only a small portion had ever been paid. Thus, for example, in the case of the Mexican loan, the whole sum was

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6,400,000 l. of which only 2,458,000 l. had actually been sent out of the country. The South American governments had all along shewn every disposition to do what was fair and just. They had, it was true, made a hard bargain for themselves; but, then they said, "this has been made by our authorised agents, we are therefore, bound by it." The reproach to the people of South America, that they had failed in their pecuniary engagements, was one which they shared in common with many of the most distinguished amongst the European states. France had become bankrupt, Austria had been three times a bankrupt; as far as making three several compositions with England could make her so. Even we ourselves had been obliged to suspend cash payments; and, therefore, so far as foreign countries were concerned, we must be regarded in the light of bankrupts. It was not, besides, matter of surprise that those countries should at the present moment find themselves in circumstances of embarrassment, seeing that they were exposed to the contention of rival chiefs, and to the miseries of internal discord; but of this he felt perfectly assured, that whatever might be the opinion entertained of the skill and discretion with which they managed their financial concerns, there could not be the slightest suspicion that they at any time contemplated a fraud as respected the people of this country. He knew that general Bolivar was, at the present moment, doing all in his power to have a portion of the revenues set apart for the purpose of liquidating these debts. This, though it was all that, under present circumstances, could be done, formed no excuse, he was ready to admit, for the past. He did not held the people of South America to have been criminal in their pecuniary transactions, but they were culpable in not corning fairly before their creditors, and declaring their inability to pay. Had they done this, they would have put an end to the speculations of bulls and bears, and have saved the holders of their securities from a great deal of loss and a great deal of misery. He thought also, that the government of this country ought to exert its influence, for the purpose of effecting the payment of such British subjects as were creditors of the South American governments. But though entertaining the feelings which he did, he could not lose sight of the circum-
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stances of palliation which attended the situation in which the governments of those states were placed, nor could he forget the part which this country bore in their liberation. He concluded by moving, for an account of the official value of all exports of every denomination of British and Colonial produce, to the States of South America, during the last seven years; also of the imports from the same places.
Mr. C. Grantsaid, he would very readily accede to the motion, at the same time he feared there might be some difficulty in making out all the returns called for. As to the remarks with which his gallant friend had accompanied that motion, they did full justice to the object of it.
The motion was agreed to.

FOREIGN TRADE—IMPORTS FOR HOME CONSUMPTION.
Sir Henry Parnellrose for the purpose of moving for several accounts respecting the Foreign Trade of the United Kingdom. The first account was similar to an account that was laid on the table of the House in the last session, on a motion that he had made: it was an account of the importation of a great number of articles of foreign manufactures, and raw materials, in the years 1824 and 1826. These years were taken, because it was in the year 1825 that the customs duties were altered with the professed design of establishing a free trade—and therefore, a comparison of the importations of 1824 with those of 1826, would show the practical effect of the alteration of the duties, and of what is called the Free-trade System. The account he now proposed to move for was of the importations of'1824, 1826, and 1827, for the purpose of showing what the effect of the alteration of the duties had been in 1827. The account which was presented last year proved that the prediction which he had made in 1825, of the effect of the new system, was well founded; namely that no considerable increased importation of foreign manufactures would take place, because the new duties had been fixed so high as to be prohibitory duties. In point of fact there was no other progress made in introducing free trade, except the changing a system of absolute prohibition into a system of prohibitory duties. The country, therefore, still suffers all the injury that belongs to a system of restriction and protection. The immediate evil of this system is the

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raising of the prices of all goods on which the protecting duties are imposed. Another evil is, that, in proportion as these duties exclude foreign goods, the homemade goods are of inferior quality; but the greatest evil of all is the diminution of foreign trade, which is the result of preventing several millions worth of foreign goods from being imported, and a corresponding quantity of British goods from being exported to pay for them.
It was no doubt true that there were great difficulties in the way of removing the system of protection. The right hon. gentleman, the Secretary of the Colonies accomplished a great deal in 1825, and probably all that was then practicable to be done. But, as we now had three years experience of the effects of a more liberal system, and full proof that, in every instance, it had been completely successful, it was now time to make some further progress, and to afford to the industry and capital of the nation new sources for employment. The complete failure of all the anticipations of ruin which were so loudly set forth in 1825 by the silk manufacturers, and glove manufacturers, and other manufacturers ought to serve as an encouragement to ministers to take a decided course, and to act by the public in the way that the true interests of the public required. The supposed partial interests of this or that set of manufacturers ought not to be upheld, by inflicting upon, the great body of consumers a heavy system of taxation by the high prices which the system of protection gave rise to. With respect to France nothing could be more unnatural than the actual state of our trade with that country. There were no two countries so well calculated to deal largely together as these countries were, each had many productions which were peculiar, respectively, to each other. So that a great interchange of commodities might take place without the possibility of any injury to either party, but with the certainty of the greatest benefit. But in place of this the whole imports from France do not amount to two millions, and the whole of the British productions, which are exported to France, is only about 400,000 l. Our high duties on French wines were in every respect most impolitic. They certainly produced less revenue than lower rates of duty would produce.—In the last session the chancellor of the Exchequer (lord Goderich) told the House
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that measures were on foot for having the treaty with Portugal revived, and held out hopes that the duties on French wines would be lowered; but nothing more has been heard on the subject. It was unquestionably a most absurd thing, that this country should be at this day levying a rate of duty on French wines, which was established at a period when national wealth was supposed to consist wholly in gold bullion; and when it was imagined that the best way of attaining it was by levying a lower duty on Portuguese wines than on those of France.—The hon. baronet concluded by moving" For accounts of all foreign goods imported in the years 1824, 1826, and 1827; and also for accounts of the principal articles of raw materials, and of general consumption, imported from abroad in each quarter during the last four years." He stated that his object in moving for the last account was to show what the state of the home trade was in each of these years.
Mr. Robinsonsaid, he was friendly to free trade, but should like to see foreign countries give us advantages corresponding; with those we yielded them. France and the United States had given us nothing in return for the liberal policy we had exercised towards them.
Mr. Humeurged the expediency, if we wanted France to be liberal to us, of not giving such an unfair advantage to the wines of Portugal.
The motion was agreed to.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN NEW SOUTH WALES AND VAN DIEMEN'S LAND.
Mr. Secretary Huskissonrose to move for leave to bring in a bill "to provide for the Administration of Justice in New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land. The important colonies of New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land were now regulated, in what related to the administration of justice, by an act passed in the year 1821. His object, in the first instance, was to provide for the continuance of certain powers contained in that act, which were about to expire; and, in the next, to provide for future alterations in the administration of justice. From the peculiar situation in which the population of those colonies were placed, about two-thirds of the inhabitants having forfeited their civil rights, it was difficult to have the law administered in the manner which prevailed in this country, by means

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of grand and petty juries. It had been found necessary, therefore, to suspend the system pursued' in this country, and provide a jury of a peculiar description, suited to the nature of the population. This suspension of the English system he intended, in the new bill, to continue, but to make provisions that would gradually, should circumstances permit it, assimilate the administration of justice in the colony to that of England. The colonies were not in a situation to admit of thus receiving a legislative assembly, but on the plan pursued with respect to Canada, before it had a legislative assembly, he proposed that they should have a legislative council, to be composed of twelve or fifteen persons, who would be entitled to vote on all matters connected with their expenditure, and, indeed, concerning their affairs generally. This would lead the way in time to the establishment of institutions in those colonies similar to those of the people from whom the inhabitants sprung.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.