Sitting of 5 November 1827

GAME LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.
On the motion for taking the report of this bill into further consideration,
The Earl of Malmesburysaid, that his feelings with respect to this bill were very strong, that he wished to state his sentiments to their lordships. He was aware that a strong feeling prevailed against the present system, on account of its being supposed that it promoted the increase of crime. Admitting that there was an increase in the number of crimes, he thought
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that increase arose from other circumstances rather than the Game-laws. A noble friend of his, not then in his place, had taken the same view, and he should beg leave to elucidate it by some returns which had been laid on the table. Those returns related to crimes generally; and some of the convictions went as far back as 1810. The account, however, of the number of convictions under the Game-laws only went back to 1817. He could only compare the number of convictions, therefore, under these laws, since this year. In 1817, the number of convictions under the Game-laws was one hundred and twenty-seven; and in 1826, the number was one hundred and twenty-eight. There was, therefore, in these ten years only a difference of one. He was aware that a number of convictions under the Game-laws were summary; but he thought their lordships might deduce from the convictions at the assizes the number of summary convictions; and there was, therefore, no reason to believe, that the latter had increased more than the former. But, if there was no increase of crimes under the Game-laws, there was an increase of crimes under other laws; and if other laws were the cause of an increase of crime, those other laws must bear the blame for the increase under them. As to horse-stealing, for example, it had increased very much. In that part of the country where he lived, horse-stealing had increased so much, that this species of property could hardly be secured. In 1810, the number of convictions for horse-stealing was fifty-eight; while in 1826, the number was one hundred and twenty. Thus, while the convictions under the Game-laws had increased by only one, the convictions for horse-stealing had more than doubled.—The crime of simple larceny approximated very much to the crimes under the Game-laws; and he would next call their lordships' attention to the convictions for larceny. In 1810, the convictions for simple larceny were two thousand two hundred and sixty-nine; but in 1826, they were eight thousand and eighty-one; so that, in this case, the increase had been quadrupled. He was justified, from these documents, in supposing, that there were other causes at work, promoting the increase of crimes than the Game-laws; and one or two he would briefly mention to their lordships. A great part of the increase of crime was owing, he thought, to the distressed state of our

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peasantry, and the want of employment. In Wiltshire, the individuals who had of late been committed were of a different description from those committed formerly. They were young, industrious, healthy men, who were in distress and in want of employment. They had been reduced to work on the roads for half a crown a week; and, was it extraordinary, that men in that reduced state should have recourse to unlawful measures, to obtain the means of subsistence? He was borne out also by another return, in thinking that the Game-laws had not caused an increase of crime. He had obtained a return from the county of Suffolk, in which game was very extensively preserved, which would illustrate his opinion. This return was from the governor of Bury gaol. He found that the commitments in 1817 were twelve, and in that year the price of wheat was 94 s. per quarter; the next year, the number of commitments was eighteen, and the price of wheat 83 s. In 1822 the number of commitments had increased from twelve, in 1817, to seventy-eight; in and during the intervening period, the price of wheat had been falling from 94 s. to 43 s. per quarter. He did not mean to assert, that the low price of wheat caused the increase of crime; but there was some analogy and some connection between them; and there was something in this connection which made him believe, that the low price led to want of employment, and both together led to the increase of crimes. Another circumstance which he thought had led to the increase of crime, was the increased consumption of spirits in the country. During the last three or four years, there had been several atrocious crimes committed, and most of those crimes had been committed under the influence of intoxication. But he did not rest this part of his statement on these circumstances. There was a public document which proved the increase of the consumption of spirits. In 1824, the consumption of British spirits was fifteen millions of gallons; in 1826, the consumption was twenty millions of gallons. This was an increase of one fourth; which was, he thought, enormous. But this increased consumption was not confined to British spirits. Great inducements had been held out to consume rum; and great advantages had been conferred on the owners of rum. What was the result? Why, the consumption of rum had increased in the proportion of five to eight.
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This increased consumption of spirits was, he thought, one cause for the increase of crime. But, whether this was the case or not, it was clear, from the returns, that the increase of crime was not occasioned by the Game-laws.—He would mention another circumstance, which was curious, as shewing that theory and practice did not always agree. There had been a great increase in the number of juvenile offenders; when it was expected, that the extensive education now adopted would improve the rising generation. In fact, however, the rising generation were more immoral and more vicious than preceding generations. By Mr. Capper's Report, in 1824, it appeared, that out of four thousand prisoners, more than one third were under twenty years of age. There was, he believed, a great difficulty in ascertaining the causes of the increase of crime; and the latter statement was to him a proof that these causes were not yet well ascertained.—With respect to the bill before their lordships, he must say, he was at all times loth to make a total change in any system, though he was quite willing to look at the evils caused by any system, and willing to lessen them. He thought he had good ground for opposing this bill. If these laws were, as they were denominated, oppressive and unjust, it was impossible, he thought, that they should have been so long suffered to exist. When he remembered the number of great men who had presided over the destinies of the country, and who had resisted every kind of oppression, he could not believe that they would have allowed a single law, much more a whole system of laws which were unjust and oppressive, to remain on the Statute-book. TO the bill itself he had a great many objections. It might be desirable to legalize the sale of game; but when their lordships came to carry this desire into execution, they found it surrounded with difficulties. He considered the bill likely to increase preserves of game; at present it was preserving game which made the Game-laws at all productive of crime, and this bill would increase this evil. At present, no persons preserved game but gentlemen of large landed property; but, if this bill passed, tenants and yeomen would become preservers of game, and the evils would be infinitely increased. The noble lord who introduced the bill, seemed to think only of large, well-defended estates; but, in many parts of the country,

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property was much subdivided and intermixed, and in such cases the bill would add much to the difficulties and evils that existed under the present laws. Gentlemen now went out shooting, by sufferance, on the property of these small farmers, and gave them a brace or two of partridges, and both parties were satisfied. But, if this bill passed, the whole would be reduced to a question of pounds, shillings, and pence; every man would be anxious to make what he could by game; it was a new species of property created by this law, and there would be no more shooting on sufferance. The bill would be of no benefit to any body, except a class of men—who were very respectable in their way—he meant country attornies. With respect to the inducements which the present system held out for gentlemen to reside on their estates, he thought they ought to be encouraged, by such inducements, to reside in the country. He confessed that he was attached to old customs, and might, perhaps, be called bigotted; but he would much rather legislate strongly, and would not mind making a harsh law, if by it he could secure the residence of that valuable class of persons, the country gentlemen, on their property. It was too much to condemn them to the solitude of the country, and deprive them of all pleasure while remaining there. The physical character of our gentlemen was, he thought, concerned in this bill. The officers for our army were obtained from this class; and he was sure that young men who went out shooting and hunting, who were exposed to all kinds of weather, and who rode every day twelve or fourteen hours, would make better officers than those who spent their time lounging in the streets, or sauntering during the day from one club-house to another, and passing their nights where they ought not to be passed.—He objected, therefore, to the word "politic" introduced into the bill; for he did not think the proposed alteration politic by any means. The character of our country gentlemen was of great importance. Perhaps he ought to allude to the libels which had lately been directed against the country gentlemen. For two years, a system of libels had been directed against them, which might be traced from the daily press, up to works which were the production of the greatest talents in the country. There was a regular system to run down country gentlemen; and it pervaded all classes.
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You could not go into the city but you heard the lord mayor pronounce a condemnation of the Game-laws; while his lordship committed the fisherman to gaol, who employed nets of an improper size, and destroyed the white bait that was to feast his lordship and his brethren in their solemn excursions down the river. He objected also to the bill, as making the crime of trespass more difficult to be defined. The bill spoke throughout of game, and all its clauses applied to game; but he would ask, what was to be done when a man trespassed on the land of another, and shot snipes and woodcocks? He was not himself a sportsman, and therefore spoke disinterestedly; but he thought the bill would put an end to fox-hunting. Preferring the present system to that which was proposed, he would move, "that the Report be taken into consideration this day three months."
The Earl of Abingdonopposed the bill, and observed, that some laws were represented as oppressive and unjust, which, in reality, were not nearly so much so, as those by which it was proposed to amend them. Many noble lords were in the habit of describing the better sport afforded by the pursuit of game in their younger days, than at present; and among these, he believed, he might enumerate the noble and learned lord (Eldon) who lately occupied the woolsack. It was not by the enactment of measures like the present, that sporting could be improved. He was for adhering to those institutions which had stood the test of time, and were found beneficial in their effects. Noble lords might desire to dig a pit, and shovel into it the fruits of by-gone experience; but he would vote for keeping a little experience above ground, and was for throwing the present bill out of their lordships' House—or, if by no other opening, out of the window. He would do so, because he felt convinced that, so far from effecting a decrease in crime, it would go far to complete the demoralization of the country, as it regarded the conduct of the lower classes of the agricultural population.
The Earl of Eldonwished to say a few words upon this subject, the more especially as, in the days of his youth, he had been, probably as great a poacher as any other person upon the lands of the noble lord who had just resumed his seat, and to whom this was, perhaps, the best moment to offer an apology [a laugh]. He

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thought he should hardly be performing his duty, if he permitted this bill to pass through the House without pointing out some objections which he had to the clauses in a legal point of view. Some of those clauses were so worded, that, if they were not amended, they would be productive of infinite mischief. One of the clauses to which he objected was that which regarded the apprehension of poachers; and when their lordships recollected how very little would reduce the crime of murder to that of manslaughter, he thought they ought to pay some attention to this matter. It seemed to him, that, as the bill was now framed, it was calculated rather to increase crime than to prevent it; while the assembling of game in large quantities within small limits, it did not pretend to touch. He hoped long to enjoy the old mode of sporting, but if their lordships did nothing to prevent the present practice of battue shooting, he should be disappointed in his hope; and they would do nothing to diminish the amount of crime. The wording of the clauses he objected to might be amended, but he certainly should oppose the bill in any manner in which it might be altered, unless it went to destroy that kind of sporting to which he had alluded. His lordship then alluded to an opinion very prevalent, that those who started game on their own land might pursue it upon the land of another, though they were not at liberty to start it there. Of this opinion he had once experienced an instance. He had gone out shooting upon his poney; and, when he had been out some time, he heard a shot from behind a hedge, near which he had gone when in the pursuit of his game. As the field from whence the shot proceeded was in his manor, or reputed manor, he proceeded thither, and found two gentlemen, each attended by a servant. He inquired of those gentlemen how it was they came to trespass upon that manor; when they answered, that they were no trespassers, as they had started the game on another manor, and pursued it there. Upon hearing this, he turned lawyer, and told them they had no right to do so; but the only reply he received was a desire that he would go to his master, lord Eldon, and inquire about that matter, when he would find himself mistaken. He acquainted the gentlemen with the fact, that he was himself lord Eldon, and that such was his opinion upon
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the matter; and he added, that, as he had given them a little disagreeable law, he would then give them an agreeable day's shooting, which he desired them to take at their pleasure. Now, he wished to know in what sort of situation he should have been, had he attempted to do that which this bill empowered him to do; namely, to take these men into custody? When men met men armed, as they generally were when engaged in the pursuit of game, it became an important matter clearly to settle, in what way the offending party should be dealt with; and by so doing to avoid hearing of such lamentable cases as had occurred during the last assizes; and to prevent men from being implicated in the guilt of murder, before they well knew what they were about. If the House should determine on passing the bill, he had no objection to assist in amending it; but he could not vote for it himself.
Lord Dacresaid, he should give his support to the bill, which he was convinced would go to diminish the amount of crime. He admired the principle of it; which, to his mind, seemed founded in perfect justice—he meant that principle which gave to a man who caught game on his land destroying his property the right to kill that game. That principle admitted a right which he thought belonged as strictly to the poorest cottager in the kingdom, as to the proudest peer in that House. Some noble lords had spoken of the present laws, as if they did not increase the amount of crime. He could assure the House, that returns did exist, which proved, beyond all question, that they had increased the amount of crime. In one year, no less than one thousand three hundred persons had been imprisoned for infractions of the Game-laws; and among them were probably men who were thus introduced for the first time to crime and profligacy. They went in guilty of no other offence than that of poaching; and they were turned out of gaol accomplished and decided thieves. The problem of the unprecedented increase of crime was hardly to be accounted for in any other way than by supposing that the most enterprising youth among the peasantry, induced by the temptation of advantage, and not restrained by the belief that they were violating the laws of property, engaged in the practice of poaching, for which they were thrown into gaol, mixed with the

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worst of felons; and, when turned out, proved to have been seduced by their profligate companions, to devote their energies to the practice of crime. Now, he was convinced that, if this bill was passed, that effect could not take place; for the peasantry would respect that property in game, which they found vested equally in all the owners of the soil, as much as they respected the property of farmers in the fowls of their farm-yards. It was impossible, in the present state of society, but that the vast riches of personal property would command the luxuries which the present law sought to place beyond the reach of individuals who were unqualified. He understood that it was impossible for any man to carry on the business of a poulterer in London, unless he consented to transgress the laws of his country for the accommodation of his customers, by procuring game for them.
The Earl of Harrowbyfully concurred with the noble lord in the grounds on which the present bill was entitled to support. The returns alluded to, proved two things; first, the comparative increase of crime within the last three years; and secondly, that the positive amount of crime was hardly to be accounted for on any other principle than that of the existence of these laws. The second fact was fully to be accounted for, on the ground stated by the noble lord. With regard to the first, he had carefully examined the returns, and he found that, in the last three years, there had been imprisoned no less a number than four thousand five hundred, committed solely for offences against the Game-laws. Now, upon looking back to the years 1810, 1811, and 1812, the number only amounted to four hundred and sixty. The increase, therefore, had been nearly tenfold within the last fourteen or fifteen years. Great as noble lords might think was the amount of increase in the other branches of crime, he might defy them to prove that it was as great as in this. He thought it was impossible, after the proof thus obtained, that noble lords should hesitate in performing a moral duty, in doing all they possibly could to put a stop to the continuance of those crimes which, he contended, were a consequence of the present system. The crimes to which he alluded were only crimes by the authority of law, and had been created for the indulgence of a particular class
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of persons. They were crimes, too, that without moral turpitude condemned men to a prison and their families to wretchedness; and thus burthened the parishes of the country with grievous expenses.
The Earl of Falmouththought it would be very easy to amend the bill, as to the description of the required qualification; but that was not the only difficulty he felt. He objected to the bill itself; and with respect to what had been said regarding the right of all men to kill game found on their land, he thought it would be most dangerous to acknowledge such a right; which certainly was not required on the ground of compensation, for nobody would deny that it was always afforded to the poor occupier of land by the wealthy man, whose game had injured the other's property. He thought the best mode of preventing the evils now complained of would be, to give to the present possessors of game the right of empowering others to sell it.
Earl Grosvenorwas of opinion, that this bill ought to pass into a law, and that the country owed infinite obligations to the noble lord who had introduced it. He would not say that it would put an end to the evils of the present system; but he believed it would, and he should therefore support it. It was impossible to draw up such a bill without falling into technical errors, and the wonder was, that there were so few in the present bill.
Lord Wharncliffeacknowledged, that he was not certain that this bill, if passed into a law, would put an end to poaching; but he believed it would have that effect, and the want of certainty in this respect, did not appear to him to be an objection to it. All such laws were matters of speculation, until after their effects had been tried. He thought it would be utterly impossible wholly to do away with poaching. As long as game was to be found there would be poaching, in the same way that as long as there existed property there would be thieves; but it was the duty of the legislature to diminish both as much as possible; and this, he believed, might be effected with regard to poaching, if the House would pass this bill, which he thought to be founded upon just and rational grounds; while he did not hesitate to say, that the existing laws upon that subject were both oppressive and unjust. The technical objections to the bill could be amended in the committee; and it was strange, that,

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among all the objections that had been brought forward, not one noble lord had thought fit to declare it unnecessary, by defending the present state of the law. They all seemed to admit, that the present laws were anomalous and absurd; and to that he would add, that they were oppressive. He had brought in this bill to remedy those objections. He had gone to the possession of land as the first standard of qualification. He might be asked, if every man who possessed a small quantity of land should have liberty to shoot the game found upon it, and his answer was in the affirmative. At least, such would be justice; but the limit of the qualification, in the extent and value of the land that was to give that liberty, might be discussed in the committee. His lordship remarked upon the absurdity of the present system, with regard to convictions, and with respect to the safety they afforded to one man, if he was willing to inform against another. Such laws were ridiculous in themselves, and only calculated to make mankind unite in feeling with the poacher, instead of being ranged against him. He wished to get rid of such absurdities in legislation. He admitted, that some parts of the bill might require reconsideration; but he had no doubt, with the assistance of the noble and learned lord lately on the woolsack, and that of the lord chief justice of the Court of King's-bench, whom he was glad to see amongst them, all the technical difficulties could be overcome, and the qualification could be so described as to give the right of shooting game to the person for whom he intended it—the owner of the soil. He would merely add, that those who were not owners of land, and who wished to sell game, should take out a certificate in the same manner as at present.
The House then divided; when there appeared; in favour of lord Malmesbury's Amendment 30; Against it 29. The bill was accordingly thrown out.