Sitting of 4 May 1827

NEW ADMINISTRATION.
On the motion, that the Committee of Supply be postponed till Monday,
Sir T. Lethbridgesaid, that he should oppose the going into a committee of supply on that day, as the opinions which he entertained of the title of the New Administration to the confidence of the country were such as would render it impossible for him to acquiesce in any grant which might be proposed. The observations which he was about to make would hardly be agreeable to the hon. gentleman on the other side; and some which he had intended to make he should be compelled to postpone, in consequence of not seeing the first Lord of the Treasury in his place; but, for those remarks which he had to offer, he believed the present was a perfectly fit and competent time. He did not mean to say that, in consequence of what he had to offer, the House might feel itself bound to stop all supplies to his majesty's government, but still he thought, that both the House and the country should look with jealousy to the measures of the present crisis. Report said, that a part of the existing government was merely provisional; if so, the state of things was one
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of the most unprecedented and unconstitutional of which he had ever heard. It was true that no direct question had been put upon this subject; and perhaps if such a question were put, it would meet only with the same description of answer which had been given to the questions of last night by the first minister of the Crown. He confessed that he had been shocked to hear such an answer as that to which he alluded, given from such a place. As the right hon. gentleman was not present, he was precluded from observing upon it; but he hoped to have an opportunity of noticing it when the right hon. gentleman was in his place. It had been the custom for questions to be asked from the opposition side of the House, and not to be answered—as they had been last night—by a single sentence from the right hon. gentleman, which his best friends could hardly have heard with satisfaction, and which, on all other persons, had made an impression which would not easily be erased. Now, he wished to know whether the existing government was provisional; for if it was provisional, what confidence could the country place in it? The last place in which he had ever expected to find himself was, opposing his majestys government; but being there, he would do that which he conceived to be his duty. He would do this in spite of the taunts, and the tirade of ridicule, and, he might almost say, of the load of insult, which was attempted to be fastened upon all those who questioned the propriety of the recent measures. He, for one, would not be so put down. He stood there as a representative of the Commons of England, and he would execute the trust committed to him to the best of his ability. And he confessed that when he had heard, on the last night, the first ministers declaration of his intentions and opinions upon many important political questions, and compared those views and opinions with the known tenets of the hon. gentlemen who sat around him, he was at a loss to conceive any principle upon which their coalition could be defended. What confidence could the House or the country place in a ministry made up of such materials? What confidence could the people of Ireland have in the conduct of those persons, who, having a hundred times protested against the thought of taking office, or supporting government, unless upon the condition of the Catholic claims being granted, had

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now volunteered their aid to an administration, by which those claims were not to be made even a cabinet question?—The hon. baronet then proceeded to defend the late ministers from the charge of cabal,—an accusation which had however already been triumphantly refuted in another place. The duke of Wellington, too, had been charged with assisting in the cabal, as it was called, of the resigning ministers; but his grace had come out from it with unimpeached honour. He had justified himself in a fair, open, plain, and manly way; and the only effect of the calumny would be more deeply to rivet him in the affections of the country; which would thenceforth look up to him with a still greater confidence. He was glad, therefore, that the charge had been made. He regretted the secession of the late ministers, yet one good resulted from it; namely, that it would be known where men of firmness and consistency, in whom the country could confide, were to be found. For his own part, he approved of those who would abide by their principles, without suffering themselves to be overcome by the temptation of place and power to desert those principles for office, however great and valuable the advantages. He was aware that, constitutionally speaking, the king had a right to fix on any man whom he chose to prefer for his first minister; but it was plain that the Crown and the country might be left in a dilemma, if his ministers should leave it in doubt, what principles were to guide the government. What if, in either House of parliament—[The hon. baronet was interrupted by a slight murmur with mirthful symptoms which gradually passed round the benches, without any cause perceptible in the gallery, until Mr. Brougham was seen moving up by the Speakers chair to take his seat.] That was one among many other reasons why he could not place confidence in the present government [a laugh]. He was not aware of the cause of the merriment which had just now taken place, but he found that it was occasioned by the entrance of an hon. and learned gentleman, who was certainly a great actor; not at all new on their boards, though new in that seat. He had been told the other night by the hon. and learned gentleman—he wished to be allowed to call him his friend—he hoped that they might be friends. [Mr. Brougham signified his assent.] There was no man whose assistance he would be
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more anxious to get if he had a cause to try in the courts below. Of that opinon he had given proofs, and there was no man whose opposition he would more deprecate in that House; and he would say why: the hon. and learned gentleman had got such an uncommon way with him of turning every thing into such a pleasant course of ridicule, that he had never experienced any thing like it from his boyhood down to that day. He challenged any one, whether from the history and proceedings of that House or of any other place, to name his fellow. For his part, he was only a plain country gentleman; but though he was not able to speak well, he had the courage to do his duty. Certainly, if there was any thing which he detested doing, it was speaking. But not all the splendid ridicule used in castigating him—not all the insults which might be shown him—indeed he had received no insult from any body, although he had seen it thrown about, lustily upon others. He wished this to be understood—to insult he would not submit: to ridicule he supposed he must bend. He hoped the hon. and learned gentleman would be as sparing of him as possible on this occasion. But, whether he would be so or not, he would do his best in stemming that torrent which he thought threatened mischief, and ultimate ruin to the country; however feeble might be the support which his opinions received. But, what did he say? Feeble support! No such thing. There would be soon support strong enough. There would soon be others to take those places which he and his friends, he felt for his own part, had too rashly taken up. Their voice would be heard, because it would come from breasts which were true to principles. Those (the Opposition) benches would shortly be filled by men of consistency and honesty; who would support the cause with talent and ability answerable to this great occasion. He was sorry not to have had the attendance of the right hon. first lord of the Treasury. But though not now present, the right hon. gentleman would be there on other occasions, when the House would have full opportunity of discussing grievances. The motion before the House was for fixing another day for the motion of granting supplies. He saw no reason for fixing another day for that motion. It was impossible for the House to have confidence in the new government, and certainly not

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such confidence as to vote it any supplies; so that there could be no occasion for fixing another day. He was for determining the point now. He knew that this course was open to objection, and that there was something of an invidious appearance in his adopting it. But still he felt himself justified in doing so; and he hoped that the House, if it were angry with him, would take no other mode of expressing it, than by showing him good and sufficient reasons that it was not fit now to be pursued. One word on some of the terms which had been applied to him and his friends in the discussion of last evening. They had been called a factious opposition. He would be candid enough to admit, that he did not approve of the course taken by the late under Secretary. He had not been consulted upon it beforehand, or he would have dissuaded his hon. friend from adopting it. He had shown that he did not approve of it, because he had not said a word in support of it; he believed that he had given a few cheers, occasioned by the remarks which were made in the course of the discussion. But now, as to the word faction, it was a word easily expressed, and had a tremendous effect when expressed from the lips of the hon. and learned gentleman. But he was now only following their own advice. Had not the right hon. member for knaresborough expressly told the right hon. gentleman, that he would not consent to vote a shilling, until the administration should be settled? But there was no administration settled. Would they call that a settled administration, where half the places were to be filled up? And then, what right had the hon. and learned gentleman behind them to give them his support without taking office? Why, he was dishonest to his own cause in refusing to take office. He ought to have refused to support them, unless he was put into the best office under the Crown. He was depriving the country of the use of his abilities in acting as he had done. He had no more right to be sitting where he was than he (sir T. Lethbridge) had to be sitting on the opposition benches. He ought to come down three steps. Why, he was the first, spokesman they had. Of all the men he ever heard, the hon. and learned gentleman had, in the greatest perfection, the talent of ridicule. He could make the best arguments of those he opposed go for nothing. He hoped
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the hon. and learned gentleman would not do so with him to-night. He hoped, for this once, he would allow what had been said to have its full weight. After the speech which he had made, he really thought that he was entitled to some consideration from the House. The hon. baronet, the member for Westminster, had said, that he was neither Whig nor Tory and that there were no such distinctions. He would not talk of it, if the House did not like those terms; but as he understood it, there were two different parties, in the country professing opposite principles, and he thought it useful for the country. The people knew where to find them when they were wanted. He admitted that that hon. baronet had taken a most honourable situation on the benches opposite, provided that there was no compromise. If there was any compromise, then he must declare his opposition to the course taken by the hon. baronet. He felt that he had a great duty to perform towards his country, and he would go through with it. The country looked up to the hon. baronet. His high station, his aristocratic birth, his long line of honourable ancestors, and his own qualities, gave him a great weight; but what must they think of his coalition with the right hon. gentleman? It was plain from the speech of the right hon. gentleman, that he was as much a Tory as ever. Did he not still promise to oppose parliamentary reform. Did he not say that he would oppose the repeal of the test and corporation acts? Why, there was not a Whig who heard him, but must have shrunk at hearing him, and have said within himself—"Egad! this is not the man for me." There was not a more able man in that House than the right hon. gentleman, no man could be better acquainted with parliamentary tactics: no man ever had shown greater force of persuasion or power of language. He objected, however, to the paring down of those principles which had supported the country, and to the tacking to the opposite sides of the House, in hopes of office. It looked like that greediness for the loaves and fishes, of which they had heard so much talk. There were a number of offices still kept open. What could that be for? Were they kept as baits to catch others? Why were they not filled? Perhaps the intention was, that they should go back to their constituents: It might be that, in case of opposing government with too

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much success, they would dissolve the parliament. He hoped he should always be ready to face his constituents; and the only way to enjoy that readiness was, to act always on sound, determined, avowed, principles. The moment they went to pare down and qualify principles, the House ought to make a stand. What a thing it was for the public to see five or six good fat offices not disposed of! "Who is this for?" and "who's to have that?" was the general question. His answer was, that he did not know; but he supposed those who would do the most for them. And then the people would be told, by way of explaining, "all the great questions are again to be hung up, the notices in the Red-book of the House of Commons, which stood for discussion, are half struck out, and all the rest postponed." No one, mean time, could tell them why. This ought not to be, and therefore money ought not now to be voted; and this brought him back to the point from which he set out. Ministers were not in a condition in which they had a right to ask for supplies. Let the offices be first filled, that they might see in whom they had to trust. He opposed administration for paring down principles: and he would oppose any administration which would hang up the great questions upon which the country wished for decision. He had a great duty to perform; and he had, to the best of his ability, performed it.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, he would not have risen but for the circumstance, that during the very entertaining speech of the hon. baronet the benches had become gradually full. And he now rose to inform those hon. gentlemen what was the real question upon which so extraordinary a speech had been delivered. It was not the question of granting supplies, nor of going into a committee for the purpose of resolving to grant them; but it was, that the Secretary of the Treasury proposed to postpone to another day the motion which stood for this; upon the discussion of which motion, the hon. baronet might have had the very opportunity which, according to the tenor of his speech, he desired. The hon. baronet had alluded to the probability of calling a new parliament. Certainly, his motion might have the effect of placing the government in a disagreeable situation; for if there were no supplies, and the House should prevent itself from going into a committee, which would be the neces
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sary effect of not postponing the motion to a day fixed, the government might find it necessary to take some other steps to elude the difficulty. As to the arguments, he would be ashamed to detain the House one minute upon them. They were the fragments of a speech, which the hon. baronet ought to have made three weeks ago. It was hard that ministers should be opposed for no other reason than that they were supported by some gentlemen who thought better of the present government than of that which the hon. baronet favoured. He entreated the hon. and learned gentleman behind him not to draw that evening upon those inexhaustible stores of wit and ridicule which he had at his command, according to the alarmed apprehension of the hon. baronet, but to abstain for once; especially as the House had enjoyed enough of the ridiculous for one occasion [cheers, and a laugh].
Mr. W. Peelwas sorry to detain the House by stating some reasons differing from those of his right hon. relative for resigning his employment. Independent of the feeling which they had in common upon the Catholic question, he saw no reason for confiding in the government of the right hon. gentleman. His confidence was placed in the ministers who had resigned, not in those who retained office. He admired the talents of the right hon. gentleman, and he had no fear, while he was assisted by the cooler heads and more regulated minds of the ministers who had now left him; but, when he saw him surrounded by a crowd of visionary theorists, of political economists, and the professors of what were called the liberal principles of the present day, he could not look without alarm at the dangers to which the country was exposed; nor view wit lout apprehension the perils into which it might be precipitated. He did not think that there ever was a greater delusion attempted on the country than the formation of the present cabinet. Six out of the eleven persons, he would venture to say, would not hold their situations long. If they were really joined by the noble lords whose influence they boasted, why did not those noble lords join them in an unequivocal manner? It might suit the views of those noble lords; but how would it suit the country? Were the affairs of the Foreign and Home Offices fit objects to be trifled with? This was not the way that the country ought to be governed. He was of opinion, that the

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Government gave no sufficient security for the Protestant establishment. The appointment of the first Lord of the Treasury increased his apprehensions. He did not know how the coalition was effected; but he thought that there must be a sacrifice on one side or on the other. The greater the sacrifice the greater the compliment to the right hon. gentleman. Indeed, the right hon. gentleman seemed to be fortunate in the readiness of his friends to make sacrifices. An hon. baronet gave the House to understand last evening, that he was ready even to sacrifice his dinner [a laugh]. He had not actually used the word dinner; but from the tone and manner, and the time of the evening, it was easily inferred that dinner was uppermost in his thoughts. In conclusion, he repeated his conviction, that the new government was so defective that it would not satisfy the country.
Sir G. Warrendersaid, that he had not been much misunderstood by his hon. friend and colleague. He was quite ready to give his support to the new administration, and he intended to give up dinner and all other amusements which would interfere with that object. On this account he must postpone the agreeable society and comfortable entertainments which he had had the honour to enjoy in company with his hon. colleague, till the end of the session. They would each recover their good humour, and would meet over a good dinner with renewed satisfaction. At present, there seemed to be a little too much soreness among some members of the House for the loss of places [cheers] to allow them fully to enjoy themselves. But, after the session be trusted that their convivial parties would be renewed with mutual satisfaction.
Lord Castlereaghcomplimented the hon. baronet on that sound display of truly English feeling which the House had witnessed. He would tell hon. gentlemen opposite, that he sat there as an independent member; aye, as independent as they were when sitting on that side. He hoped more independent, as he would compromise no principle to get over to the other side of the House. He could not reconcile it to that duty which he owed to his constituents, to give any support whatever to such an administration as the present. On one occasion, however, they should have no cause to doubt his cordial co-operation: he alluded to the Catholic question, which he hoped the ministers
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would put upon a proper footing for the sake of Ireland. The fate of that country at least ought not to be tampered with by the intrigues, or private purposes, of party. She ought to know how she was to be treated, and what she had to expect from a government professing to be favourable to her dearest interests. He had been only a short time in that House; but he confessed that, had he been an experienced member, the appearance of things would have given him cause to tremble. Such a manifestation of detailed artifice, and even trickery, had never before been exhibited. This being the case, he wished to know on what foundation the government of the country stood? What did the right hon. gentleman mean to do with that great question, to which he had so long given a support, the sincerity of which could not be doubted, and with an eloquence which did honour to his talents? Let the right hon. gentleman beware how he tampered with public opinion. He stood upon the brink of an abyss, and ought to beware how he precipitated himself into it. Until he understood the real position of the government, he could afford it no confidence. He said this with no hostile feeling; but because he was bound, as an independent man, to do justice to his constituents. He had been returned by them in the most independent manner; and he owed them a similar confidence: he had not even been pledged to support the late government, much less one constituted like the present, which should receive from him the most undisguised, unqualified, uncompromising, opposition.
The motion was agreed to.

NEW ADMINISTRATION.
The Earl of Winchilseasaid, he would take that opportunity of asking, whether it was the intention of any noble lords opposite, some of whom had recently occupied the places they held in that House, to bring forward any motion on the three great constitutional questions which had been supported ably and strenuously, and, he might add, with firmness and consistency, by some noble lords opposite. The questions he alluded to were, parliamentary reform, abolition of sinecure places, and the repeal of the Test-act. If there was no intention on the part of any noble lord opposite to bring forward any of the questions during the present session, he should think it his duty, under the existing state of affairs, and particularly when he saw the most extraordinary condition of his majesty's government, composed of two different parties, one of which had always constitutionally supported the questions he had alluded to, while the other had always opposed them; to bring under the consideration of parliament those questions, which would put to the test the principles of the present administration. He therefore proposed, on the 11th of June, to bring forward a motion, for the House to resolve itself into a committee to take into consideration the state of the nation. He did not think he was called upon to state the grounds for making this motion, further than what he had done; but he thought noble lords must agree with him in thinking, that either there was an abandonment of principles on the part of the noble lords opposite, or that there was some private cause, which was calculated to influence their public opinion, and produce unanimity among them. One of these two positions must be conceded to him; and he thought it necessary, for the preservation of the national and political character of the country, to bring the question to a decided issue.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that it might be convenient to consider directly what was the real state of the government as it stood at present; for there were reports going abroad that some of the offices of the new government were only provisionally filled up.
The Earl of Harrowbysaid, that, as there was no motion before the House, the course pursued by the noble marquis was quite irregular.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, there was a motion before the House. That motion was, that the House be summoned.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that if he had been out of order, the learned lord on the woolsack was there to correct him; but if it were supposed that he would be put down by any noble lord, for broadly stating his opinion on any subject, he could tell that noble lord, that he was addressing himself to a man of very different character and spirit from what he expected. The extreme haste in which the noble lord opposite rose to interrupt him, proved that what he was about to say would not be very agreeable for him to hear. He was confident that he must feel a little awkward. He had heard reports, that it was not certain whether some of the noble lords who now occupied places in the cabinet were ultimately to retain them. Being of that opinion himself, he should like for a little elucidation upon the subject. He had heard that the noble lord who was Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and the right hon. gentleman who at present filled the situation of Secretary of State for the Home Department, were not permanently to remain in those offices; that they only held them provisionally, until other noble lords might find it convenient to launch into office. Those noble lords waited a short time to see to what issue the government might come. Was he to understand, that those noble lords who had gone over to the other side of the House were determined to retain their new offices; or did they look upon those offices as only provisionally held? This question was one of so much importance, that it was highly necessary to come to a right understanding upon it. When he looked at the building which had been erected, he found it divested of all its main pillars, and that it was composed now of a sort of rubbish. The artificer had certainly been dexterous in forming the building; be he questioned with its durability. Could he have found out such a mass of rubbish in any other quarter, formed as it were by the two parties. The artificer had made a dexterous endeavour to un-Whig a part of the Whigs, and un-Tory a part of the Tories. In such a situation was the government now placed. Good God! who could without pain look back for twenty years, and now see the country in such a state, that if one went along the streets he heard every man saying—Good God, what will
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become of this? Was the first lord of the Treasury permanently resolved to attach himself to that party, and those political persons, to whom, for the last twenty years, he had been opposed? Was he disposed to take them into his councils? He should like to know whether the appointments of the government were real, before the great question came on, to bring forward which a noble earl had wisely given notice; and he should like to learn also, whether it was thought that a government could carry on the business of this country with only a provisional arrangement? There was one point more which his feelings induced him to touch upon. That his noble friend, who had been lately elevated to the peerage, and who had in early life walked hand-in-hand together with him, under an individual who had carried the glories of this country to a higher pitch than any other minister;—that that noble lord should at this moment find those individuals, to whom he had been opposed for the last twenty years, now supporting the government, and quietly contemplate such a state of things, he could not understand. He was consistent in the view which he took of this subject; and though he might be told, that it was not right to state these things, yet his feelings were too strong to allow him to be silent. He did not attempt to take a part in public affairs; but the present state of things was so peculiar as to force him to state his sentiments. In the new arrangement, some noble lords had been elevated to that House; but they must not come there to lord it over the House, or to put down any of their lordships when speaking his sentiments.
Lord Goderichsaid, he thought he should be wanting in respect to their lordships, among whom he had been so recently introduced, if he abstained from making a few observations, in consequence of what had fallen from his noble friend; for so he thought he must still call him, although he had been pleased to designate him as part of the rubbish of which the government was formed. But if that government was composed of rubbish, still he would not consent to be beaten in detail by discussing incidentally, any subject that might be introduced; especially when a noble earl was prepared to open a strong battery upon the building, which was to blow all the rubbish away. Let that be done. He asked no better; and he cared

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not one straw for the consequences. The only circumstance which placed him in the situation he now held, and the only circumstance which made him a member of that House was, an anxious desire on his part to prevent that very dissolution of the government, with a wish to cause which he had been reproached; for, if he had not yielded—he would not go into details—to the most earnest representations not to press his anxiety to relieve himself from office at a time when, if he had pressed his desire, it would have endangered the existence of government—if he had not yielded to those representations, he should before now have taken leave of public life. He therefore asked for a fair field and no favour, and would abide by the result.
The Marquis of Londonderrydid not mean to apply the term rubbish to the noble lord. He had formed part of the old administration; and he meant to apply the term to those only who had newly come in.
The Marquis of Angleseaobserved, that he was, in consequence of that explanation, designated as part of the rubbish. After the plain explanation he had given of the motives which induced him to accept the situation which he filled, he should not trouble the House with any further observations.
Lord Kingstated, that allusion having been made to a building, he would give an explanation of the word rubbish. Any person who was practically acquainted with building houses must know, that what was sent away from the building was the rubbish. The noble marquis seemed to have a mist before his eyes when he wished to see an end of the present government. The noble marquis thought that it could not stand; but he was convinced that it would stand, in spite of all the efforts that might be made to the contrary. The noble marquis had stated, that the architect found great difficulty in making a foundation; but he thought that the present building, with the scaffolding before it, was much more ornamental and more useful than the old building. As the noble marquis was a general, he would remind him of the answer given by a French general to a German officer, who, after drawing out his battalions, offered to fight the Frenchman. The French general said, that it was his plan never to fight but when it pleased himself; so that the noble lord need not feel surprised, if those persons
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whom he had been addressing should act directly contrary to his advice.
The Marquis of Salisburysaid, that the present subject had been brought on by the intemperance of one of the cabinet ministers. He had thought that a noble lord, long practised in that House, would not have interfered to put down a noble lord not in the habit of addressing the House. With respect to what had fallen from his noble friend, he had no doubt but that some part of the present cabinet held their offices only provisionally. He understood that the noble lord at the head of the Foreign Department held his situation only provisionally. He was greatly surprised that his noble friend should have taken place. Indeed, they all seemed to feel an anxious desire to retain place at the expense of political consistency. He believed that the hon. gentleman at the head of the government had, from his love of office, placed himself in a dilemma from which he would not easily extricate himself. He was under the necessity of bringing forward that measure, of which he had so long been the distinguished and violent advocate, or else he was deceiving the country. Ambition was his ruling principle. His ambition had deprived the government of those illustrious men, who had so long conducted public affairs to their own credit, and to the great benefit of the country.
The Earl of Harrowbyhardly thought it necessary to say a single word upon his interruption of the noble marquis. He had conceived that the question had been put and carried; and under that impression, he had interrupted the noble marquis. He believed every one would acknowledge it to be impossible for him to interfere for the purpose of preventing any noble lord from stating his views and sentiments, whether they might be more or less pleasant to him. He was happy that the noble lord opposite had given notice of his motion, and that their lordships were to have a full and complete discussion; for he did not like to take up detached parts of a subject. Though he was there in his place, he was not there by his own wish. On the contrary, his wish would have been, at the period of life when his faculties for official duty might be supposed to be diminishing, to withdraw himself from the public service: but he had not hesitated an instant as to the line of conduct which he had to pursue. The reasons which in-

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duced him to take the course he had followed, there would be a future opportunity to explain: but in the meantime he would say, that if a man could practically do any thing which would lead, more or less directly, to procure that object, the attainment of which was the most to be desired of any object in the whole political hemisphere, there was no sacrifice of feeling, no sacrifice of personal views, which a man was not bound to make. No greater sacrifice could have been made on his part, severed as he was from his political and personal friends. He was grieved that he was no longer sitting beside them; but that was not the only sacrifice he had made; and there was nothing which he would not willingly sacrifice, rather than take away the smallest grain or atom of his weight from that scale which he wished to preponderate.
The Earl of Winchilseawithdrew his motion, and said that he would, on Monday, fix the day when he would call their lordships attention to the state of the nation.