Sitting of 30 March 1827

STATE OF THE ADMINISTRATION.
The Chancellor of the Exchequermoved, that the Report of the Committee of Supply be brought up. On the question being put,
Mr. Tierneysaid, he wished to suggest to the House the propriety of postponing this vote of supply till the last day of April. He had two objections to the vote: one was the large amount of it; the other arose from the existing state of public affairs. As some gentlemen might not be aware of the nature of the vote proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he must trespass for a short time on the patience of the House, whilst he gave a brief explanation of the course of proceeding in such cases. The elder members were aware that about five and twenty years ago, a question had been agitated in the House respecting the arrears of the civil list for some time previous. These arrears occasioned the attention of parliament to be directed to a consideration of some remedy for the evil, and the means of preventing a recurrence of it. In 1815, an act came into operation, by which the civil list got rid of a great number of payments by which the arrears had been occasioned. These had amounted to a large sum in the years immediately previous to 1815. This formed the estimate of the outgoings of the civil list; and it became the duty of the House to prevent an improper application of the public money so granted. The mode of proceeding was for the ministers to present an estimate of what was necessary, and next year to produce a statement, to show what had been done with the money voted upon it. This year the statement was 296,000 l. The estimate was 300,000 l. to meet the coming expenses of the current year. It was impossible to imagine a grant which was more a grant of confidence than this. His
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chief objection was, that it was a grant of confidence; and confidence in whom? He wished to express himself in a manner entirely free from disrespect towards any person in the House; but before he consented to grant a sum of 300,000 l., he must know to whom it was to be granted, and who were to be responsible for the proper application of it [hear]. With respect to the grant itself, there was a great deal to be said, if this were the proper time to say it; but, unless he could succeed in prevailing upon the House to defer the consideration of the vote, it would be a waste of time to detail his objections. He would just observe, however, that the sum for diplomatic services this year was not much less than 370,000 l. In stating the enormity of this sum, the House would agree, that the subject was worthy the attention of parliament. This sum was greater than that of last year, and infinitely greater than the average of 1791, 1792, and 1793. The estimate for 1803 and 1804, including all extraordinaries, was 150,000 l.; so that the present was now more than double. He did not find fault with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon gentleman, he admitted, only followed the steps of his predecessors. Neither did he find the least fault with the diplomatic persons themselves; but such a gross disproportion between the exigencies of the service and the expenditure, called for the attention of parliament. He knew that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would say, "I will explain every item;" but that was not a very satisfactory mode of proceeding either to the country, to the House, nor to the right hon. gentleman himself: because there were many things which he might have a strong disposition to do, but which it was not by any means requisite should be done. Now, there was the sum of 23,000 l. for snuff-boxes, which seemed an unnecessary expense; but it would be placing himself in an unpleasant situation with regard to foreigners, if the right hon. gentleman refused to give them; but if the House refused to furnish the means an excuse was provided for him. The special missions were another source of unnecessary expenditure. The missions of the dukes of Devonshire and Northumberland had produced not only a heavy cost to the country, but an enormous expense to themselves. All that the ministers required of these illustrious

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personages was, that they should support in splendor the honour of the country; and no one could carry that support of the country's honour to a higher pitch than they. He did not dispute the sums given and expended on these missions; but he doubted the propriety of such missions at all. Why should it be necessary for one crowned head to send an expensive mission of compliment to another? Many of these items were extremely high. It was utterly incomprehensible to him how such an enormous difference between the estimates for the present and past years which he had stated, could arise. There was no fault in the foreign ministers, who supported in splendor the country's character; but when the circumstances of the country were considered, he thought unnecessary splendor should be dispensed with. The nobleman now at the court of France might represent the king at less than half the expense of a mission, which was eaten up by the Frenchmen dependent upon it. Then the consequence was, that persons of small fortunes were shut out from such missions. The right hon. gentleman then reverted to the circumstances of the country, and repeated that this was a vote of confidence in ministers; and it was impossible for the House to know in whom that confidence was to be reposed. There had been great forbearance displayed upon that point on his side of the House, considering the language which had been used out of doors, and the anxiety of the public to see a termination of the present unsettled state of things. Gentlemen on his side of the House had not only shown a degree of forbearance with regard to this question, which he almost considered to be blameable, but had also abstained from checking a number of votes, which, in the present condition of the country, he conceived ought not to be granted. From the unwillingness of gentlemen on his side of the House to do any thing which could embarrass the government, or impede the passing of the supplies which were necessary to carry on the public service, every thing which government required had been granted, just as if there had been an entire administration. The time, however, was now come, in which it was the duty of the House to show some signs of life. The country expected that it would at length exert its energies, as it was a mere mockery to talk any longer about delicacy
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and forbearance. No one could be more inclined than he was to evince the utmost liberality towards the noble lord whose unfortunate illness they all deplored; and if any man would get up, and say that there was any chance of the noble lord's recovering from it, so far as to be again competent to the toils of office, he would sit down immediately and not say another word on the subject. Though he had not the honour of an intimate acquaintance with the noble lord's family and connexions, he believed he was not misinforming the House, when he said that there was no such chance. He was told, that though the noble lord's life might be still spared to his family and friends, it was absurd to hope that he would be restored to any more than his family and friends. He, therefore, considered lord Liverpool, as a public servant, already extinct; and he had no doubt that, if the noble lord were now asked, whether he wished to remain any longer in office, and were in a condition to give an answer to that question, he would say, "The time is come for my resigning the official situations which I leave so long held, and therefore let no delicacy towards me interfere with the demands of the public service." He conceived, that in the present situation of the country, an important question like this depended upon other circumstances than delicacy and forbearance. What was right at one time might be wrong at another; and punctilios, on which individuals might stand with propriety on some occasions, might be quite indefensible on others. It might be inconvenient, nay, it might be indelicate, to form a new administration, whilst there was any rational hope of lord Liverpool's recovery; but let the House look at the condition of the country, and say, if it could, that any time ought to be lost before the formation of an efficient administration. Look at the state of the finances. Did the Chancellor of the Exchequer mean to say that the state of the finances was not at present of the most appalling description? It was impossible to doubt that the country was at present bowed down to the earth by a weight of debt, which had many years ago been predicted as the necessary result of our extravagance, though the prediction had unfortunately been addressed to deaf and unbelieving ears. Did any man in his senses doubt, that the scanty hope on

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which the country had long subsisted, of extinguishing, its debt by the aid of the sinking-fund, was now gone and vanished for ever? Did any man in his senses doubt that the revenue was falling off hour after hour, and that the defalcations in it were of the most alarming extent? He believed that, on that point, there was no longer matter of dispute. He confessed, that to him this was a source of bitter disappointment; for he had not expected that the distress which had been pervading the country would have continued so long. Look at the condition of our trade. It was paralyzed from one end of the country to the other. Ask any banker, and he will tell you that in the city never was such distress known. Look at the condition of our manufactures, and you will find that those who absolutely make them, the operatives, as it is now the fashion to call them, are ground to the dust, by the privations under which they suffer, and are labouring at such reduced wages as scarcely en able them to keep life and soul together. Look at the state of agriculture. If you are to believe the country gentlemen, who have been pouring their complaints into our ears for weeks past, never was agriculture worse off. You have thus a population, of which a part insists that you are to make no alteration in your Corn-laws, and another complains, that if you do not instantly take measures to lower the price of provisions, they must die in heaps from starvation. Look at the condition of our Foreign Affairs. He could not be expected to be intimately acquainted with the minute details of our political situation with respect to other countries; but he could not help surmising that something interesting was expected, when he saw the large army which we had sent out, and were maintaining in Portugal. He knew and approved of the reasons on account of which it had been sent there. And if he could be sure that the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs would remain in the situation in which he was at present, the confidence which he had reposed in government from the beginning, he should continue to it till the end. [Great cheering from the Opposition.] But how did he know that, in a few days, the aspect of affairs might not be altered by the general confidence of foreign powers being withdrawn from England in consequence of the right hon. Secretary's being withdrawn from the service of the
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king of England? We ought to know whether the foreign policy of the country was likely to continue to be directed by his master-mind; or whether it was likely to be transferred to the management of some inferior and subordinate spirit. We wanted a minister who enjoyed confidence at home and consideration abroad. No one at present knew who were ministers, what were their views, or to what point their efforts were directed. How strange the rumours were which prevailed in England, on those points every man knew; but how much more strange, how much more wild and extravagant they were abroad, no one could imagine who had not heard them. Look also to the state of Ireland. Who is to govern Ireland, or is Ireland to be governed at all? He did not wish to provoke any discussion, either regarding our foreign policy, or regarding that which was commonly called the Catholic question. He did not wish to advance any thing for purposes of mere party; the only point at which he was labouring was, that some intelligible measures should be devised for the general good of the whole community, and that the whole community should not be left, as it was at present, in a most unprofitable state of suspense and uncertainty. He did not even pretend to blame ministers for not bringing the negotiations—if negotiations had been commenced on this subject—to a close. He had been accustomed, from the language of the constitution, to consider that the supreme arrangement of these matters rested with the king, and that no one was responsible for the formation of a ministry, though every minister was responsible after its formation, for the acts which he might recommend his majesty to sanction. Now, if it were the duty of the present advisers of the king to recommend him to form a new administration, and if they were anxious to form such an administration, surely it was an excuse for the House of Commons to be anxious to see that administration when it was formed. If it were so difficult, as was now represented, to find a first minister of state, surely, it would be a shame to the House of Commons not to be anxious to know who that minister was. It was undoubtedly the privilege of his majesty to choose his own ministers; but then it was no less undoubtedly the privilege of the House of Commons to stop the supplies, until the royal prerogative was exer

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cised, and the House was made acquainted with the person to whom the disposal of those supplies was to be intrusted [hear, hear]. In the observations he had just made he had no intention to censure ministers. If he had said any thing in the warmth of debate which cast censure upon them, he had said it unintentionally and wished it unsaid. He was desirous of performing the task which he had imposed upon himself in the mildest manner, and without exciting any political feeling or irritation. He thought that no one could with justice blame gentlemen on his side of the House for want of forbearance or delicacy. All that he and they now asked for was this—that the king or somebody for him, should take the necessary steps to give the country an administration. For himself he had determined not to part with one farthing of the public money until an administration was formed. It was fine talking to say that the House ought to regard measures, not men; but though it was fine talking, it was still not a whit the less nonsense [hear]. It would not do for ministers to say, "So much is wanted for the army, so much for the navy, and so much for the other departments of the State." Something more was wanted. It was necessary that the House should know who was to command its army, who was to direct its navy, and who was to be at the head of the other departments. It was right that when public affairs were in the miserable state of incertitude in which the affairs of this great empire now unfortunately were, the representatives of the people should keep in their hands the means of making the fitting appropriations for the service of the commonwealth. It was his bounden duty, as a member of the House of Commons, to prevent the House from being sent about its business when all the grants were gone through, without knowing to whom the administration was to be intrusted, until the time of its next meeting; and the best mode of preventing that result appeared to him to be the withholding of the supplies. The present was a moment at which the greatest anxiety prevailed among all ranks and conditions of men, to see a decided order of things once more established in the country. He wanted, he repeated, no discussion about the propriety of this or that political arrangement; and having said so, he trusted he might be permitted to add, that if ever there
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was a moment of great public anxiety in the history of this country—if ever there was a time in which there was great distrust in the wisdom of their governors felt by all who entertained sober and discreet views among the governed—if ever there was a period when it was absolutely necessary that the public confidence should repose somewhere—the present was that period; and the only chance which the country had of being rescued from the difficulties which surrounded it, was in having its distrust dispelled, and its confidence re-invigorated. That which the country had for weeks been wanting, was a strong, an efficient, and a united administration; and if such an administration were not speedily formed, its difficulties would soon gain such a head that it would not be within the power of man to overcome and remove them. What he meant by the words "united Administration" he would not at present define, because he had no intention to provoke a discussion upon any dubious or controverted points He used the words in their ordinary acceptation, and in no other; and he thought that the good of the country could only be consulted by setting over it an administration, endowed with that combination of integrity and talent, which would enable it at once to preserve the respects of foreign powers, the confidence of its own sovereign, and, above all, the grateful attachment of the people intrusted to its care. Give the country such an administration, and there was no danger which we might not hope to overcome; leave us without it, and the difficulties of our situation would become more appalling than ever, and we should exhaust ourselves at last in vain efforts to subdue them. He should say no more, lest he should provoke that discussion which he was anxious to avoid, but should conclude by moving, "that the further consideration of this report be deferred till the 1st of May."
Mr. Secretary Canningthen addressed the House; but in a tone of voice so indistinct, as to be only partially heard in the gallery. However, he said, he might differ from the motion which the right hon. gentleman had just submitted to the House, he still agreed in one proposition which the right hon. gentleman had laid down in the course of his speech; namely, that the government had no reason to complain, either of the House in general,

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or of the right hon. gentleman in particular, or of any of the hon. gentlemen who sat near him, on account of any want of courtesy or forbearance, shown towards it during the crisis which had occurred since the commencement of the lamentable illness of his noble friend. Neither did he differ from the right hon. gentleman when he stated, that from the force of circumstances, and from the lapse of time, it was necessary that those considerations which had induced them to act with so much courtesy and forbearance up to the present moment, must now cease to have the slightest influence on their future conduct. He trusted that the right hon. gentleman opposite would admit, on this occasion that it was difficult for those who had long acted in concert with the noble lord whose illness they all in common deplored, who had enjoyed the happiness of a nearer and more intimate view of those great talents and acknowledged virtues to which the right hon. gentleman had paid so handsome and yet so just a tribute, and who were further bound to that noble lord by the ties of ancient and long-continued friendship—he trusted, he said, that the right hon. gentleman would admit that it was difficult for persons in their situation to bring themselves to believe that all hopes of the noble lord's recovery were entirely and utterly at an end. He trusted, moreover that the right hon. gentleman whatever might have been the inconvenience which undoubtedly had been experienced, and whatever might be the impatience, which he admitted was growing in the public mind, for the conclusion of the present unsettled state of things, would still admit that ministers, if they had sinned, had sinned on the right side, and that nothing could have been more disgraceful to them or more painful to lord Liverpool, than for that nobleman to have found, upon waking from his present trance, that his place in the cabinet had been sought to be filled up with intemperate haste and with precipitate ambition. It was, he admitted, difficult to define the precise limit and the exact period to which such considerations ought to be extended; but he could assure the House, that ministers had not suffered the time to pass away, without attaching to them due importance. He said most distinctly, that for the delay which had already taken place, ministers were ready to take as much responsibility
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as for any other act of their administration; and when he made use of his majesty's name, and alluded to the forbearance which had been shown, in compliance with the royal feelings, he did not do so with any view of throwing upon his majesty the slightest portion of that responsibility which attached to himself individually, and to the whole administration collectively. That delay, he could now inform the House, was at an end [hear, hear]. His majesty had desired a communication to be made to lord Liverpool's most immediate connexions, that the time was at length come, at which, with whatever pain it might be attended, he must, in compliance with the claims of public duty, proceed to fill up the chasm. occasioned by the loss of the noble earl's services; and sure he was, that it would be a satisfaction to the House to hear, as it had been to ministers who had recommended his majesty so to act, and to his majesty who had acted upon their recommendation, that lord Liverpool—and he did not mean to make any statement as to the precise condition of his noble friend's health—had sufficient consciousness to understand that his feelings and situation had been equally respected by the sovereign and by his colleagues in office, and that it had been a great consolation to him to know that they had been so respected. Under these circumstances, he hoped that the House would not feel itself called upon to affix to the administration the last stigma which its last power could inflict—he meant a vote equal to the stoppage of the ordinary supplies—unless it either traced, or suspected, in the course which ministers had pursued, other motives than those which appeared on the face of their conduct. When this dreadful calamity had befallen the country, one great measure had been prepared, and was ready to be brought under the consideration of parliament, which had been looked for with extraordinary impatience and expectation. He meant the consideration of the Corn-laws. Would it have been wise, supposing it had been delicate, which he thought the right hon. gentleman would agree with him that it would not have been—would it have been wise, he asked, in ministers to postpone the consideration of that measure until a new government was formed, having, as they fortunately had, not only the advantage of the noble

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lord's concurrence and advice, but also all the advantage of his high authority, and of the application of his great talents to the framing of it? Had no calamity befallen the noble lord, that measure would have been introduced simultaneously into both Houses of parliament: as things had turned out, it had only been introduced into that House, in which the noble lord, had he been in health and vigour, could have taken no share in the discussion. It had gone through that House without any inconvenience being felt from the want of the noble lord's superintendence and support; and he left it to those who heard him, to decide whether, having only the choice of putting off the question to the formation of a new administration, giving in the interim to the noble lord that reasonable time for recovery which all parties wished that he should have, or the choice of proceeding precipitately to the formation of a new administration, without giving any time at all. Ministers had not acted more wisely in proceeding at once to the consideration of that measure, without any reference at all to the situation of the noble lord. From the very beginning it had been the intention of government, as soon as the measure had reached its last stage in the House of Commons, to propose a delay, for the express purpose alluded to by the right hon. gentleman opposite. He had expected that, in the early part of the present week, the bill would have reached that stage, and he assured the House that was the limit of time to which ministers had postponed the moving of the adjournment of the House, or rather the cessation of public business, for the purpose of fixing a new administration. The duration of that interval, far beyond the period which had been originally anticipated, had led to a state of things which had compelled his right hon. friend, the chancellor of the Exchequer, to ask for a sum on account, to carry on the public business till after the Easter recess. He would not blame the right hon. gentleman opposite, because in his opposition to the present grant, he had introduced a criticism on some other grants. He trusted, however, that when he came to those grants, which related more particularly to his own department, in which an expenditure annually occurred, partly discretionary and partly fixed, he should be able to show the right hon. gentleman, that in the discretionary
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part of the foreign expenditure, over which alone he could exercise any control, he had made a diminution, during the last year, of ten per cent upon the whole. The present, however, was not a fit opportunity for entering upon such a discussion; nay more, it would be unfeeling and ungracious to go into details, considering the difficulties in which ministers were placed, and the feeling which the House had manifested towards his suffering friend and colleague, lord Liverpool. He based his opposition to the motion of the right hon. gentleman upon this ground, that though it was a painful discretion which ministers had to exercise, yet between the two alternatives offered to their choice,—the danger on the one hand of proceeding with precipitation, and the danger on the other, which had absolutely occurred, of acceding to too long a delay—ministers had chosen that course which was not only right in itself, but also most creditable to themselves, as well individually as collectively. He did not mean to assert that inconvenience had not arisen from the course which had been pursued; but he did mean to assert, that the inconvenience was not such as deserved to be visited by a vote, which would inflict the severest censure which the House could give, which struck at the existence of the ministry, and amounted to a withdrawal of all confidence from it. [cries of "No, no."] On the other side, he thought it right to state to the House, that by acceding to the motion of his right hon. friend, the chancellor of the Exchequer, it would only enable him to proceed with the public service, while the necessary arrangements were making for the formation of a new administration, and would not preclude itself from instituting a rigorous investigation into the propriety of those grants, whenever it came to the consideration of the votes on which these sums were now asked on account. When that period arrived, he should be prepared to meet the right hon. gentleman in discussion, and to defend all the votes which belonged to his department of the public service. So would his right hon. friends near him be prepared to act in regard to the different departments with which they were connected; and so would all the members of government, each in their respective stations. Under these circumstances, he could not think that even the right hon. gentleman himself would persist in pressing his motion. The delay, of which he

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complained, was now at an end [hear, hear.] In repeating that assertion, he did not mean to blame the right hon. gentleman for alluding to the delay. On the contrary, he thanked him for giving government an opportunity of explaining itself upon the subject; and of repeating, as he did once more, that whatever inconvenience the delay might have produced, it was now at an end. He trusted, that as the object of the right hon. gentleman's address must be answered by the declaration which he had just made, he would not object to the bringing up of the report on the present occasion.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that the right hon. Secretary misunderstood the object of his motion, if he supposed that it was to pass a censure upon the administration. The motion of the right hon. gentleman opposite was a motion which, if granted, must be granted on confidence; and there could be no confidence until it was known in whom confidence was to be placed. He could not see in what the difficulty of acceding to his proposition consisted. He was happy to hear from the right hon. Secretary, that we were at last upon the road to a new administration. He was happy to have gained that piece of information, and should have been still happier if he could have gained more. He was willing to dispose of the present question in an amicable way, if it could be so managed; though he thought that this particular vote was not such a one as the circumstances of the country warranted.
Mr. Canningsaid, that the right hon. gentleman had expressed himself satisfied with the declaration which he (Mr. Canning) had made that evening. Now, he would tell the right hon. gentleman, that he came down to the House on Monday last, expecting that the very question which had just been put to him would have been put then, and prepared to give to it the same answer which the House had just heard. No opportunity had been afforded him on the occasion to which he alluded to give that answer.
Mr. Tierneysaid, he did not wish to divide the House on his amendment, if he could help it. He would withdraw it, on the understanding that such steps were now taking by those in authority, as must, previously to the holidays, lead to some definitive arrangement with respect to the administration. He thought that the present grant was objectionable on many
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grounds; but, in order that he might not be accused of acting in a spirit of hostility to government, he would wave his objections to it, on the understanding that the annunciation of a new administration should be made before the holidays.
Mr. Canningsaid, that he must refuse to give any such pledge as the right hon. gentleman wished to extract from him.
Mr. Tierneysaid, he felt himself placed in a very awkward situation, in consequence of what had just fallen from the right hon. Secretary. The House was now informed, that the formation of a new administration was at present in contemplation; but the communication of that necessary piece of information came to it unaccompanied by any pledge, as to the time in which that formation would be completed. The government of the country was, therefore, still to be left in a state of abeyance. His object in proposing an amendment to the original resolution, was to prevent any further grant of money from being made to the government, until it was known in whose hands the government was placed. He was driven, by the course pursued by the other side, to the necessity of persevering in his amendment. He was told that the formation of a new administration was in a train of proceeding; but he was left entirely in the dark as to the rate, whether quick or slow, of that proceeding. He repeated, that until an administration was formed in which the House could put confidence, it ought not to vote one farthing away on confidence. He should, therefore, press his amendment.
Mr. Whitmoreconcurred with the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down, that not the slightest pledge had been given to the House, by the right hon. Secretary, as to the time within which a new administration was to be formed. Now, considering the alarming situation of the country, and the delay which had occurred already, he thought the House would not discharge its duty to that country, if it did not concur in the proposition laid down by the right hon. gentleman near him, and if it did not express by its vote, that the time was at length come when it was incumbent that some progress should be made in forming a strong, an efficient, and a united, administration. Such was the feeling of the whole country. He had never yet spoken to any man out of the House, who did not view with alarm

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the unsettled state of the administration, and think that it was the duty of parliament, before it adjourned, to take every constitutional means in its power to discover whether any and what measures were in progress, to advance the formation of a new administration. If the right hon. gentleman pressed his motion, he should certainly give it his support.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he concurred with the hon. member for Bridgenorth, and also with the right hon. member for Knaresborough, in thinking that the time had at length arrived, at which it was the duty of the constitutional advisers of the Crown to state to his majesty, that the public exigency required the formation of a new administration. That assurance had already been given to the House by his right hon. friend, the foreign Secretary, and he fully concurred in the propriety of making it public. He must be permitted, in that stage of the discussion, to recall to the recollection of the right hon. gentleman opposite, who said that the House ought to accede to no money-vote until an administration was formed in which it could place confidence, that in moving for this grant on account on a former night, he had said, that it was only such a grant as would enable those who might hold the helm of government to carry it on till after the recess, and that he would not presume to call for a further grant until an administration was formed. He assured the House, that there was no intention to call for any other sum at present on this account. He was prepared to admit, that if, in the present state of things, he had called for a larger grant, it would have been the imperative duty of the right hon. gentleman opposite, and his friends, to have given their strenuous opposition to such a grant.

List of the Minority.

Abercromby, hon. J.

Dawson, A.

Althorp, viscount

Denison, W. J.

Baring, A.

Du Cane, P.

Baring, sir T.

Dundas, Sir R.

Baring, W. B.

Dundas, G.

Baring, F.

Easthope, J.

Bentinck, lord W.

Ebrington, viscount

Bernal, R.

Fazakerley, J. N

Birch, J.

Fergusson, sir R. C.

Clive, E. B.

Fortescue, hon. J. G

Colborne, R.

Graham, sir J.

Davenport, E. D.

Grattan, H.

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Grosvenor, general

Protheroe, E.

Grosvenor, hon. R.

Pryse, P.

Heneage, G. F.

Ramsden, J. C.

Hill, lord A.

Rice, S.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Robarts, A. W.

Honywood, W. P.

Robinson, sir G.

Howick, lord

Russell, lord W.

Hughes, W. L.

Russell, lord J.

Hume, J.

Russell, lord G. W.

Hutchinson, J.

Russell, J.

Kennedy, T. F.

Sefton, earl

King, hon. R.

Smith, W.

Knight, R.

Stanley, lord

Labouchere, H.

Stanley, hon, E. G. S:

Lamb, hon. G.

Stuart, V.

Langston, J. H.

Sykes, D.

Maberly, J.

Thompson, C. P.

Maberly, W. L.

Tierney, rt. hon. G.

Macdonald, sir J.

Tomes, J.

Marjoribanks, S.

Waithman, alderman

Martin, J.

Wall, C. B.

Marshall, J.

Warburton, H.

Morpeth, viscount

Western, C. C.

Nugent, lord

Whitmore, W. W.

Ord, W.

Williams, O.

Parnell, sir H.

Williams, T. P.

Ponsonby, hon. F.

Ponsonby, hon. G.

TELLERS

Portman, E. B.

Duncannon, visc.

Price, R.

Normanby, visc.

The House divided: For the original motion 153. For the amendment 80. Majority 73.

WRIT OF RIGHT BILL.
The House having resolved itself into a committee upon the Writ of Right bill,
The Solicitor-Generalsaid, that he intended to propose a clause in the bill, by way of guard to the rights of infants, married females, and persons who, from being beyond the seas, or from other causes, might be supposed to labour under temporary disability, as to the prosecution of their claims. This was only following the spirit of the statute upon which the law was founded—the act of Henry the 8th, which contained clauses for securing the rights of individuals so circumstanced, beyond the ordinary regulations of the law, and was entitled "The Statute of Limitations, with a proviso." It had been deemed necessary to adopt this precaution, even though the time allowed for prosecuting claims extended to sixty years.
The Attorney-Generalsaid that the bill required licking into shape, before it was possible to discuss it. For himself, he deprecated any rash or hasty interference with those laws which governed the whole landed property of the country.
Mr. Fergusonintimated, that the bill must undergo great alterations before he should be able to give his support to it. He did not think thirty years was a sufficient time; he could not consent to

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ess than forty. He deprecated the present method of levying a fine, and thought the process of ejectment might be introduced with advantage into all transfers of property.
Mr. Bernalthought some general reform most necessary in the monstrous system of the property-law of the country. He thought that twenty years of abeyance was enough to allow to any claim, unless under peculiar circumstances. The looking further only multiplied enormously the expenses of conveyancing.
Mr. Baringobserved, that it would be of great benefit to the country at large, if gentlemen in the profession would give their attention to matters of this kind. As the law at present stood, immense trouble and expense were incurred in proving the remote parts of a title. He had himself bought some property of a poor woman, and the expense of making out a title had been 160 l. Thorough-bred London conveyancers took a pleasure in entering into all the minutiæ, to increase expense. Thirty years did not appear too short a time, where disabilities, such as infancy, &c. were allowed for.
Mr. Shadwellsaid, that the statute of Henry 8th made no allowance, beyond the term of sixty years, for future disabilities; it only made the commencement of that term prospective; not barring the claims of persons whose rights had already existed sixty years, where any peculiar circumstances had prevented them from asserting them. At present, he was inclined to limit the indulgence given to the peculiar disabilities, because the changed state of society—the more rapid circulation of intelligence, both within the empire and beyond seas—since the time of Henry 8th, made most of them far less cogent than they had been. There was scarcely any part of the world with which we could not now communicate, and receive an answer within two years. One reason why he was decidedly disposed to change the term of limitation from sixty years to thirty, was, that the House of Lords, sitting at a court of equity, had refused, in the late Cholmondeley case, to give relief upon a right of more than twenty years standing. As he believed the fact to be, that more than one-half of the landed property of the country was in that situation (from the existence of mortgages and other encumbrances), that titles to it could only be enforced by the interference of courts of
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equity, he thought it better to bring the practice of the courts of law and equity as near, with respect to this subject of limitation, as possible.
Mr. Horace Twissthought it decidedly necessary to introduce into the bill those guards for persons under peculiar disabilities. Infancy, for instance, was just as much a disability at the present moment as in the time of Henry 8th.
Mr. A. Dawsonthought it better to take even the hazard of occasionally doing injustice, than to carry securities to a length which were ruinous to the public in general.
Mr. Shadwellsaid, he was desirous to have the bill reprinted pro forma, which was agreed to.
The House then resumed, and the report was ordered to be received on Monday.

FEES ON PRIVATE BILLS.
The Earl of Hardwickepresented a Petition from himself and several other proprietors of land, in the Bedford Level, complaining of the great expense of passing Private Bills, and praying their lordships to institute a committee to inquire into the matter. The petition was presented in consequence of a bill then on its way through parliament for underdraining the South Level. It was of some importance, that undertakings of such a description, which materially benefitted the community, should not be exposed to any unnecessary expense. In this case the petitioners complained, not merely of the amount of the fees levied, but of the uncertainty of what that amount would be. On this bill there were no less than fourteen sets of fees to be paid; so that the parties could not know what the expense would be. In his opinion, such things ought to be a matter of notoriety, so that persons bringing a private bill into parliament, should be certain beforehand what it would cost. In a case which recently occurred to the bishop of Exeter, it was necessary, in order to improve the cathedral, to pull down some houses, and the act of parliament enabling the dean and chapter to purchase the houses to be pulled down cost more than the property was worth. It had been stated by a noble lord, that the expense of passing private bills had been much increased by the practice of appointing agents; but this he did not believe was the case. The agents saved the parties a great deal of trouble, and transacted that business by correspondence, which persons must otherwise come from a great distance to transact.—The noble earl concluded by moving for the appointment of a committee, to inquire into the subject, which was ordered, and the committee appointed.
APPEALS FROM INDIA. The Marquisof Lansdown rose,in pursuance of the notice which he had given, to call their lordships' attention to the subject of Appeals from India. He proposed by his motion to put their lordships in possession, by the information it would cause to be laid on their table, of some circumstances which would show them that a great practical grievance was suffered by that portion of his majesty's subjects who constituted that distant part of the empire. He hoped their lordships would think no apology necessary from him for bringing before them a question, concerning which he did not pretend to have any local information; but it must happen, while the government of countries of vast extent, and at a great distance, was under our sway, that such questions should come before their lordships, and it was their duty to collect as much information as possible on all questions in which the welfare, the happiness and, above all, the administration of justice in that distant country was concerned. He did not mean to say from what cause the difficulty had arisen; but the fact would be proved to their lordships by the papers, for which he meant to move. Ever since the year 1773, when, by the act of parliament for regulating the judicature in India, the duty had been cast on the privy council, of hearing and deciding appeals, a large number of them lay, not merely not decided, but on which no proceedings had taken place at all. The number of these appeals, from one court, amounted to forty or fifty, on which no proceedings whatever had taken place. In one instance, there was an example of appeal, in which the property of the whole Zemindary of Ramnad was concerned; which was an extensive district, containing many square miles, and many thousand inhabitants; and, during the time the appeal was pending, on which no proceedings had taken place, no man could tell what were his rights in the district, and the people were ignorant to whom they ought to pay their rents. He did not mean to impute blame to any person, or to say that these causes had been put off or delayed by any one man's conduct; because he was induced to suppose that the machinery was defective by which appeals were sent from India to England, so that they were not brought under the consideration of the privy council. No man who knew the zeal and ability of his noble friend, the
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president of the privy council—none of thir lordships, who had acted with him on committees, and were aware of his manner of managing business in them, or in that House—could for one moment suspect, that he was to blame for this delay. But it did appear that there existed a great practical grievance—a great delay in getting those appeals brought to a hearing—which defeated the intention of the legislature, when it cast on the privy council the duty of hearing and determining these appeals. The consequences of these delays were most injurious. As long as litigious suitors in India knew that they had a power, by lodging an appeal, of keeping a cause suspended for years, it was a temptation to them to do so, as they were sure of deriving a fraudulent benefit from their injustice; when, if they knew from authority, that such appeals would be heard and decided, they would never bring them. As the number of those appeals increased, which came from courts in distant parts of the country, their effects extended over more individuals, and produced greater mischief. He knew it would be said, that the delay was caused by no agents being appointed; and this was, he believed, the case; but, unless the machinery was provided for bringing these appeals before the privy council, it must be difficult for the native suitor, who employed fakeels as his agents, to find the means of following up his suit. He did not know exactly what that machinery ought to be, whether there should be an officer appointed here to bring forward the appeals, or whether any other measure should be adopted. The fakeels, who conducted business before the supreme court, might be competent to manage the business here; but many appeals came from provincial courts, and in them the suitors were destitute of all means of bringing their cause under the consideration of the council. It was necessary to recollect, that some of these appeals came from persons immediately connected with the government of India: they were transmitted, some to the India House, and some to the Board of Control; but, in many cases, they came from persons who were accustomed to lay their statements before one or other of these bodies, and, after sending in a roll of paper, to wait in silence, and without impatience, for a determination. From whatever cause the difficulty arose, it was due to the people

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of that country to endeavour to remedy it. If it arose from the constitution of the privy council, the members of which might find some difficulty in determining questions arising from a dispute concerning rights which had to be determined by the laws of India, an obvious remedy ought to be found, by calling to the assistance of the privy council some of those respectable individuals who had filled high judicial situations in India, who now enjoyed pensions for their services, and who might give this assistance for those persons, and which he was sure they would be most willing to give. He did not say whether they should be employed as assessors, or whether his majesty should be advised to place some of them in the privy council. If the difficulty arose from counsel, there could be no difficulty in finding a remedy for it. If it began at the other end of the proceedings—if it arose from a difficulty of preparing and transmitting appeals, and bringing them before the privy council, some provision should be made to facilitate the bringing them before the council, so that they might be speedily decided. At present, from whatever cause it arose, the appeals could not be prosecuted to a conclusion, and the delay amounted to a denial of justice. Many of these appeals had been lying over ten, twelve, and twenty years. They came from different parts of India, and left numberless questions connected with property in an unsettled state. The noble marquis concluded by moving for a return of all cases of appeal which had been transmitted from various courts in India, since the year 1800; and from Ceylon, the Isle of France, and our other Eastern dependencies, since they had been in our possession, stating how they had been disposed of. It had been his intention, he said, to have moved for the return from India since 1773; but on finding that, previous to 1800, the communications on this subject had not been made regular, he had extended his motion only to the year 1800.
The Earl of Harrowbysaid, he did not rise to oppose the motion, to which he could have no objection under any circumstances. His noble friend, who had frequently called their lordships' attention to many important subjects, had undoubtedly a right to call their attention to this; and had he even done it in a manner different from what he had, no feeling of soreness could have arisen in his mind.
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But the manner in which his noble friend had brought forward the subject was calculated to do away any unpleasant feeling, were it possible, which it was not, that any could exist. His principal object in rising was to make one or two explanations, that it might not be supposed that the privy council was the cause of the delay which existed. Their lordships were aware that the privy council was a court of justice, and, like other courts, could take no cognizance of causes unless they were regularly brought before it. It could not hear those appeals, unless the parties were present, or some agent for them. But when the appeals were entered and followed up by the agents, they were heard to an end, and were not delayed. For what passed before the cause came before the court, or before one of the parties made an application to it, the privy council could not be responsible. He believed his noble friend was misinformed, however, as to the number of the appeals which were undecided. He thought the number of appeals, since 1800, had not exceeded nine; and, except in one instance, no step had been taken, no agent had been appointed, and no means adopted for carrying them on. Their lordships would see, that merely sending a petition did not enable the privy council to proceed. Surely the counsel who advised the appeal from India, should have sufficient experience to know, that unless there was an agent here to be answerable for the fees, which went to the public, and to employ counsel, the appeal could not come before the privy council. It could take no notice of it whatever. As far as the privy council was concerned, he could say, that whenever causes were brought before it, there was no unnecessary delay. There were at present only four causes ready for hearing. As to the privy council not being properly constituted as a court, and as to his noble friend's suggestion to have assessors, the council had questions to decide of Dutch law, of French law, of Spanish law, and of the law of every people from whom we had ever taken a colony, and he had not heard any complaints made by the learned and able persons who sat in the privy council, that they could not understand those laws. He was persuaded that they did not find a greater difficulty in deciding such questions, than their lordships had in deciding questions of

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Scotch law. He believed, also, that, by the assistance of counsel, questions of Hindoo or Mahomedan law might be decided in the privy council. It appeared to him, therefore, premature to suggest an alteration in the constitution of the court. He had not the least objection to produce the papers, though he must say, that no primâ facie case had been made out for imputing delay to the privy council.
The motion was agreed to.