Sitting of 20 June 1827

ROYAL COLLEGE OF SURGEONS.
Mr. Warburtonpresented a petition from the Royal College of Surgeons, complaining of the regulations of the College. After which, the hon. gentleman proceeded to make the motion of which he had given notice, respecting the Royal College. He observed, that all the evils which usually resulted from a close corporation of any kind had manifested themselves in the institution in question. The interests of the many were sacrificed for the benefit of the few. The enactments of the corporation of which the commonalty complained were as follow: In 1796, a former corporation, out of which the present grew, was, in consequence of some irregularity, dissolved. In 1797, an application was made to parliament for the purpose of establishing the corporation anew; and a bill was brought in for that purpose, granting the proposed corporation many powers, among which was the extraordinary one of monopolizing the Lecturing on Surgery in London; although at that very time many schools of surgery were in existence in the metropolis. After the bill had passed through the Commons, and through several stages in the Lords, great secrecy being observed with respect to its provisions, this strange clause was discovered, and the bill was immediately scouted. In 1800, the College of Surgeons obtained their present charter from the Crown. It was true, that that charter did not contain any such power as the one involved in the clause which he had just described; but the College endeavoured by means of bye-laws, to obtain a similar authority. The evil was, that the individuals of whom the Council of the College consisted were, more or less, connected with the hospitals, and with the lectures delivered in those hospitals; and therefore had a direct interest in framing the bye-laws in question. By those bye-laws it was declared, that the only regular Schools of Anatomy and Surgery were the hospitals of London, Dublin, Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Aberdeen; that no certificate of a pupil could be received unless he had studied in one of the above, containing a hundred patients, for a year; or in a Provincial Hospital, containing the same number of patients, two years. It was well known, that in the Provincial Hospi-

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tals it was exceedingly difficult to obtain subjects. London, Dublin, and Glasgow, were the only places in which they could be had with any facility. Formerly, it had been considered as the just reward of a surgeon who distinguished himself at the regular hospitals, that if he established himself as a lecturer in private, his class was likely to be numerously attended. It was not enough now, however, for a young man to produce a certificate of attendance on any of these gentlemen, or even of attendance at Foreign Hospitals; such as those of Paris, Vienna, &c. He had to complain, on behalf of the petitioners; that the examinations by the College were private, and it would be readily conceded that great advantages were, in almost all cases, attendant upon publicity. The petitioners were no advocates for rendering admission into the profession more easy than it at present was; their object being only to make examinations more fair, and the persons admitted more highly qualified for the duties they would be called upon to perform. The examiners were at present appointed for life; and it happened that the science often got the start of them, and they were behind the knowledge which their younger contemporaries possessed. The examinations were often of a very superficial description; and the Admiralty and Military Boards were so dissatisfied with the examinations of the College, that they were obliged to subject persons to a further scrutiny, to ascertain whether they were fit for the public service. It was considered by the College, that all persons who practised the obstetric branch of the profession, as well as all apothecaries, were less qualified than others for the honours and advantages of that institution.—Another complaint was, that the College had passed a bye-law, which required every student, before examination, to produce a certificate that he had attended a course of winter lectures. This extraordinary bye-law was not confined merely to dissection, but it extended to surgery and anatomy. This was the means of depriving of pupils, and consequently of suppressing the lectures, which many able men had been accustomed to give in the summer. It was justly complained that the College had made an invidious distinction as to the entrance granted to members and to students into the Theatre. The Museum was opened only twice a week, and then only two hours on each
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day. This Museum was purchased in 1799, and was removed to its present situation in 1806; and yet no catalogue of its contents was published, and the collection was consequently rendered nearly useless. At the time of making the purchase, the collection contained many manuscripts of the late John Hunter; and these, from a certain degree of neglect in the Council, had been suffered to be destroyed. At an early period of the next session, if the petitioners continued in the same mind as at present, he should certainly move for a committee to inquire into the subject. In the mean time, he should move for certain papers, which would afford the necessary information for the guidance of the House. The hon. member concluded by moving for a return from the College of Surgeons of all public money lent or granted to the College from 1799 to the present time, for the purchase of the Hunterian Museum, and for building, purchasing, repairing, and improving the said College, with the appropriation and expenditure thereof: the regulations under which the members and students are admitted to the Hunterian Museum, and to the Library of the College: the numbers of persons examined for practice in surgery: and an account of all monies received by the College in 1825, and 1826, on account of the members.
Mr. W. Smithsaid, that the subject was by no means new to the House, as similar petitions had been presented upon former occasions. It would be found, that the petitioners were not aggrieved as to the points of complaint, and that the College would have no difficulty in making its case good. It was unfair, in the interim between the present time and the ensuing session, that the College should lie under these heavy charges, especially as many of them arose out of personal pique. It was true, that there was no catalogue of the Hunterian Museum, and that many of the manuscripts of the late Mr. Hunter had been improperly destroyed. Mr. Cliff, however, was sedulously preparing a catalogue.
Mr. Peelsaid, he was bound to declare, in justice to the heads of the College, that he had found them willing to remove every evil of which the petition complained. With respect to the refusal to admit the members to enter through the private door, he had advised that the cause of complaint upon that point should be removed, and

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which was accordingly done. He had also given it as his opinion, that there ought to be a public account rendered of all fines and monies received for admissions. A very able person was employed in drawing up the catalogue, which would be soon published, and in the meanwhile his time could not be abstracted too little, by the admission of strangers into the Museum. He believed that foreigners and strangers were admitted at all times; and when the catalogue was finished, the days of admission would be four out of the six in each week. The examinations of students were not in private. The students considered the examination to be very severe; and many of them were rejected. The destruction of the manuscripts had never been sanctioned by the Council of Surgeons. An individual had conceived himself justified in destroying these papers, conceiving it necessary for the fame of Mr. Hunter that they should be made away with. The Council had no power to prevent the destruction; and therefore were not responsible for what had been done. They had made application, in order to recover the remainder. Many surgeons of the first eminence, such as Mr. Brodie, Mr. Travers, Mr. Earl, Dr. Babington, Mr. Stanley, and Mr. Davis, approved of the conduct of the college of surgeons. He allowed that the petition was signed by many persons of the highest professional character, though he had declined presenting it; as there were many parts in which he did not agree. With respect to anatomy, that science could not be pursued without a due facility of obtaining subjects, or dead bodies. Wax, leathern, or wooden, figures, were found to be inadequate to the object. The difficulty of obtaining bodies was increased by the prejudices of the lower orders, whose feelings were outraged at the idea of submitting dead bodies to dissection. The subject was well deserving consideration; for, as the law now stood, it was of serious injury to a science most important to human life. Young men designed for the profession, instead of pursuing their studies in London, Edinburgh, or Ireland, uniformly proceeded to Paris. The law which enacted, that the body of the murderer should be given up for dissection, tended to create a prejudice in the minds of the lower orders against any human body whatever being used for that purpose. He would not wish to alter the law in this re-
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spect; but, it might be proper to bring in a bill which should provide, that all persons dying under any execution for felony, should have their bodies given up for dissection. There were between four and five thousand persons under commitments for felonies; and he thought that all who died in gaols, or on board the hulks, under such circumstances, might be given up to be anatomized. If this were considered an addition of punishment, he should be glad of it, as it would tend to prevent offences; if it was considered otherwise, there would be no hardship in it. The price of a subject in Paris was only about twenty francs or fourteen shillings; whilst in London it had been as high as sixteen or eighteen guineas.
Sir Joseph Yorkesaid, that the supply of healthy dead bodies, such as of persons executed, was not the only object; it being material for surgeons to obtain the bodies of those who had died of peculiar diseases. He did not see why there might not be introduced into the bill which the right hon. gentleman spoke of, a clause to render it legal for any person who died in poverty previously to dispose of his body. He thought it an evil, that whilst Scotland possessed three schools of medicine and surgery, England and Ireland should possess but one each.
Mr. Hudson Gurneythought there would be a great evil in giving over the bodies of criminals for dissection, inasmuch as it would go towards increasing the prejudice which existed so inconveniently already. If it were possible, he thought they ought to repeal Mr. Jodrell's Resurrection act. As things stood, the magistracy ought to endeavour to let things pass as silently as they could, instead of exerting any uncalled-for activity.
The motion was agreed to.

SMALL DEBTS RECOVERY BILL.
Mr.Peelrose and said:—Mr. Speaker; I had, yesterday, the satisfaction of performing the last act which was necessary to give effect, so far as the Houses of parliament are concerned, to the bills introduced by me, which had for their object the amendment and consolidation of the law relative to offences against property. Having concluded my labours with respect to those bills, I avail myself of the first opportunity of calling the attention of the House to another subject, connected with our domestic jurisprudence—of minor interest,

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perhaps, but still of very great importance: the state of the law with respect to the Recovery of Small Debts.
This subject was originally undertaken by the noble lord the member for Northampton (lord Althorp). It was at his instance that a committee was appointed; through his perseverance that those inquiries were instituted, which established a fact not very creditable to the law of England—that there exists no remedy of which any prudent man will avail himself for the recovery of small debts. I use the words "small debts" in deference to the prevailing use of those words; but we ought never to forget, that the terms large and small," as applied to debts, are relative terms; that the real magnitude of a debt, or any other pecuniary transaction, depends upon the pecuniary means of him who is a party to it; that the amount of debt, which may be scarcely discernible by the eye of Mr. Rothschild, is no trifling object in the eye of him whose whole capital does not exceed twenty pounds.
To close the avenues of justice, as to the recovery of debts to all those classes of society who subsist by labour, or by the retail of commodities, and who are compelled by the habits of society, to give credit to the parties with whom they have dealings, affords a just ground for complaint, and is a real grievance, for which a remedy must be devised.
I presume that it is hardly necessary to adduce proofs, that the existing state of the law with respect to the recovery of small debts is very imperfect. I speak of the law as it applies to the country generally, and except, of course, those special acts of the legislature, which have, by the establishment of courts of conscience, and courts of request, given, in large towns and some few other places, local relief.
The court to which, in ordinary cases, appeal must be made for the recovery of debts below forty shillings is the county court. Its jurisdiction is not expressly limited to debts below the amount of forty shillings, but it may be considered to be so limited practically; because, if the amount of the debt for which a proceeding is instituted in the county court exceeds forty shillings, the suit is removable, at the will of the defendant, into the superior courts.
By the common law, the suitors are the judges of the county court, and the sheriff is only a ministerial officer; but, according
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to the existing usage, for all practical purposes, the sheriff or his deputy is the judge, and the suitors act as jurors.
We find, then, in existence, at present, a court of very ancient institution, familiar therefore to the people; founded on good principles and of known, and defined powers and constitution. It appears to me to be a wise course to retain and to improve this institution; to enlarge the sphere of its operation, and to infuse into it new energy and vigour, rather than to supersede it by the establishment of a novel jurisdiction, resting on no foundation of antiquity, with no prescription to plead in its favour, and in the constitution of which, in every step, an experiment of doubtful issue must be made.
The complaint against the county court it not that it is defective in principle, but that it gives no effectual redress on account of the smallness of the sums which are alone recoverable in it, and still more on account of the expense of the proceedings, as compared with the amount of the debt. I propose, therefore, in the first instance, to enlarge the sum for which an action for debt can be maintained in the county court: to raise it from forty shillings to ten pounds. If regard be had to the decrease in the value of money, ten pounds is, probably, not a greater sum now than forty shillings was at the time that the power of the court was limited to debts of that amount. If upon trial it shall appear that the court gives an effectual remedy in the case of debts below the amount of ten pounds, and that justice within these limits is administered with general satisfaction to the people, nothing will be more easy than to extend the power of the court, and enlarge its jurisdiction to the amount of fifteen or twenty pounds.
The great source of complaint is in the expense and unnecessary complexity and length of the proceedings. An attempt to recover a debt of forty shillings in the county court, will, at present, if the action be defended, entail an expense varying in amount from about seven to fifteen pounds. If there be no defence, no obstruction to the immediate decision of the court, the expense will in very few, if any cases, fall short of three or four pounds. The proceedings are nearly equal in length, and require quite as much of technical nicety, as the proceedings in the superior courts, where the sum under litigation may be of an indefinitely greater amount.

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The bill which I shall introduce, will confine the formal part of the proceedings to which a plaintiff must resort previously to the hearing of the cause, to plaint and summons.
There will no longer be any necessity for taking out the writ, which is called, technically, the Writ of Justices; without which writ, as the law at present stands, the county court can take cognizance of no debt above 40 s
The whole of the proceedings will be so simple, that any man who can read and write may insure the hearing of his action without professional assistance.
The plaintiff will be required to do nothing more than to enter in the office of the sheriff a plaint, in writing, containing his name and place of abode, the name and place of abode of the defendant, the amount of the demand, the cause why, and the time when, such demand occurred. A summons will then be issued by the sheriff or his deputy, calling upon the defendant, to appear, and giving due notice of the time and place at which he will be called upon to answer the plaint.
As I before observed, all the formal proceedings that are requisite may be taken by the plaintiff himself, without the aid of an attorney.
At the trial, I do not propose by positive enactment to exclude professional assistance; but I propose that no fee shall be allowed to barristers, and that the fee payable to an attorney for his services in court be limited, in any one cause, to the sum of 10 s
With respect to the constitution of the county court, the bill will make very slight alteration in it. General usage has so far modified the original institution, that, at present, for all practical purposes, the sheriff is the judge, the suitors are the jury. And I propose that they shall still continue to act respectively in those capacities.
It may be desirable, in order that attendance on the service of the court may not be too burthensome, to qualify all persons who are liable by the jury bill to serve on petty juries at Nisi Prius, to serve as jurors in the county court. A smaller number than twelve will be amply sufficient to return a verdict; and the bill, therefore, as at present drawn, makes no other provision with respect to the number of jurors, than that it shall not consist of less than five.
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The great object of the bill being to ensure speedy decisions, with little trouble and at little expense, I propose, not to give the right of challenging jurors, and to give no appeal from the decision of the court. The sheriff or his deputy, on any just exception being made to a juror, will no doubt set such juror aside; and in order to remedy the evil which might, in some occasional instances, result from the total want of a power to set aside a verdict founded on false testimony, or in mistake, the bill will give to the sheriff the discretionary power to order a new trial, provided that the order be given before process of execution shall have issued. I consider it infinitely better for the interests of the public generally, and more conducive to the administration of justice properly understood, that, in matters of this kind, there should be a speedy and final award, even with the risk of an occasional error, rather than that there should be protracted litigation; which, although it may end ultimately in a just judgment, according to law, consumes in its progress much more than the value of the sum for the recovery of which the litigation took place. Suppose one verdict in fifty to be erroneous, the whole amount of the injury cannot exceed 10 l. Is it not better to ensure justice at this expense to forty-nine out of the fifty plaintiffs, rather than to debar the fifty of any remedy at all, through the terror of expensive proceedings and vexatious appeals?
It is no doubt true, that although the sum to which the jurisdiction of the court is limited is small in amount, an action may involve nice questions of the law, on which it would be desirable to have professional advice and assistance; the bill, therefore, will leave full power to the sheriff to call in the aid of an assessor, although it will make no provision for the permanent appointment of such an officer. His assistance may be had by the sheriff, or his deputy, whenever it may be deemed requisite: and the fund arising from certain small fees of court, which will be payable by the suitors, will provide ample means for the compensation of the assessor.
The Bill will give to the magistrates in quarter sessions, the power of dividing a county into districts, for the purpose of holding the sheriff's court in each of such districts, either by adjournment, or simultaneously, as may be hereafter determined

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on. If the court should sit by adjournment, it may be proper to require that the sittings should be holden in each district at least once a month.
In the course of the discussions which arose in the framing of this bill, a very important question came necessarily under consideration, namely, whether the process of execution for small debts recovered in the county court, shall be against the goods of the party only, or whether it shall extend to his person also?
My opinion is, that it would be advisable to limit it to the property of the party; and that opinion is in conformity with the prevailing judgment of those whom I have consulted in various parts of the country. Supposing the remedy were against the person of the debtor; the expense of conveying a prisoner to gaol, and of maintaining him there, would be a heavy and unjust burthen on the county, with no advantage to the creditor; none, at least, sufficient to counterbalance the evil and expense incidental to confinement of the person, in cases like those for which we are now providing. I propose, however, to compensate the creditor for any risk which he may run from the loss of his remedy against the person of his debtor, by a material and beneficial alteration in the existing law. At present, the party against whom judgment is recovered in the county court, is liable only in respect to such portion of his property as is situate in the county in which the judgment has been recovered. A party against whom judgment is given in the county of Surrey, may possess property of any amount in the county of Middlesex, and may refuse satisfaction to the plaintiff, without subjecting himself to any risk in respect to the property which he holds in Middlesex. This bill provides, that be the effects of a debtor where they may, they shall be equally subject to the execution of process as if they were in the county from the court of which that process issued.
With the view of remedying very frequent complaints that have been addressed to me, with respect to the misconduct and extortion of bailiffs: I propose to give to the court a power not only to dismiss the bailiff, and to compel due payment of money levied; but, in case of extortion, to award the payment of damages to the party aggrieved; and in default of payment, to commit the offender to prison for a limited time.
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The only other provision of the bill which I think it necessary to notice, is that which gives to the court a power (to be exercised at its discretion) of allowing debts to be paid by instalments; so that an honest and industrious debtor may be enabled gradually to liquidate a demand which he cannot satisfy at the instant. Due precautions are at the same time taken for the purpose of guarding against the abuse of such an indulgence.
I have now detailed the principal enactments of the bill which I propose to introduce.
It has been prepared, after much consideration, by two gentlemen of very high character and great professional ability—Mr. Dampier and Mr. Wightman. Those gentlemen, acting under the directions which I gave to them before I quitted office, have made very extensive inquiries connected with the subject which was committed to their consideration. The present bill is the result of their labours, in conjunction with my own and those of Mr. Hobhouse.
It appears to me to be preferable, in some important respects, to either of the two bills which have been on former occasions submitted to this House.
By the first of those bills, the county court was retained, and the lord lieutenant of the county was empowered to appoint a permanent assessor to the sheriff, with a fixed salary of several hundred pounds per annum. This bill was subsequently modified, by giving to the Crown the power of uniting counties into districts, and of appointing an assessor in each district. In either case it would probably have been difficult to ensure such appointments as would have given general satisfaction. Local interests and connections must have prevailed to a very considerable extent in determining the appointment to a local office, partaking of a judicial character. The situation would have been naturally considered to be a permanent one; and, unless provision had been made for the retirement of the officer, in case of age or infirmity (thus subjecting the county to a new expense), there would always be a painful struggle between the desire to ensure the efficient discharge of the duties of the office, and the natural unwillingness to dismiss a public servant, whose incapacity should solely arise from age or sickness.
The second bill which was introduced,

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virtually superseded the authority of the county court, and devolved practically the jurisdiction, as to small debts, upon the commissioners who make their circuit throughout the country at stated intervals for the performance of the duties which are connected with the discharge of insolvent debtors. The great respectability, and high professional qualifications, of those gentlemen who act as commissioners of the Insolvent Debtors' Court, pointed them out as very fit instruments for effecting the object contemplated by this bill. I apprehend, however, that in practice the relief which would have been given by this arrangement would have been less extensive and complete than we originally anticipated. The circuits of the commissioners are taken three times a year; the number of places at which the court must be holden, to give effectual relief as to the recovery of small debts, would be so great, that the time for which it could sit at each place must necessarily be very limited. In the event of the postponement of the trial of a cause, a period of four months must elapse before it could be heard; and there is but too much reason to believe that the consequence of such a delay would be, a constant endeavour, on the part of defendants, to postpone the hearing of their respective causes, and the occupation of the time of the court in discussing the validity of the reasons assigned for delay.
A permanent local court will not be open to these objections.
Should this bill pass into a law, the county courts generally will have a jurisdiction with respect to small debts, very much resembling that jurisdiction which the county court of Lancashire exercises at the present time. By a particular statute, no action for debt to the amount of ten pounds is removeable from the court of that county. The sheriff appoints an assessor, and the court sits in different parts of the county by adjournment. The bill which I shall introduce will adopt nearly the same principle; but the forms of proceeding which it will appoint, will be much more simple and less expensive. In Lancashire, it is still necessary that a writ of justices should issue from the chancery court of the county palatine, in order that the county court may have full jurisdiction over debts below the sum of 10 l.
At the commencement of the year I
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entertained a confident hope, that if the House should approve of the principle of the bill, it might pass into a law before the termination of this session. The political events that led to my retirement from office, and the time which I have been compelled to devote to the superintendence of the several bills relating to the amendment of the Criminal law, have compelled me to postpone the introduction of this bill to so late a period, that I cannot expect it to pass through all its stages, and receive the sanction of the other House of Parliament, before the prorogation. I propose, however, with the permission of the House, to pass the bill through the committee: and that after the blanks shall have been filled up, and the bill rendered perfectly intelligible, it shall be printed and generally circulated during the recess. The consideration of it may be renewed, with all the advantage of the intermediate discussion which it will undergo, at the earliest period in the next session of parliament.
If it be thought advisable that the charge of this bill, in its future stages, shall be committed to my hands, I will give it every attention in my power, with a view to render its provisions as free from objection, and as generally beneficial as they are capable of being rendered.
If, on the other hand, it be thought probable that the measure will be rendered more perfect, or that its final accomplishment will be better secured, by devolving the superintendence of it upon those who have official authority, and the access to official information, I tender to my right hon. friend, who has succeeded me in the Home Department, the offer of my cordial co-operation; an offer which I am ready to extend to any attempts to amend, gradually and deliberately, any other branch of our domestic jurisprudence which may stand in need of revision.—The right hon. gentleman concluded with moving, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill, for the more easy Recovery of Small Debts in the County Courts of England and Wales, and for extending the Jurisdiction thereof."
Mr. Secretary Bournethought, that the thanks of the country were due to his right hon. friend, for the various bills he had introduced to amend the laws, and for none more than for that to which he had now called the attention of the House. He was happy to give his cordial support

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to the proposition, and he did not give it the less willingly because the right hon. gentleman had engrafted his improvements on the ancient institutions of the country.
The Attorney-Generalwas also disposed to give his full support to the proposition, and agreed, that it was the part of true wisdom rather to amend the deficiences of the old institutions, than to attempt the introduction of new forms of law. He thought that the alteration of the law, with respect to the amount of the debt to be recovered, was such as the change of circumstances required; since 10 l. now were nearly of the same real value as 40 s. had been when the county courts were first instituted. With the proposition to abolish imprisonment of the person for these small debts, he also fully agreed. He thought it would be a public saving in every way; that it would be favourable to industry, and would prevent much of that misery to which an honest but poor man was now subjected. He concurred, too, with the proposal to extend the creditor's remedy against the property of the debtor; but he thought that part of the proposition might be rendered more effective, if the court were invested with the power of inflicting compulsory labour on the debtor who should attempt to withdraw his property from the reach of his creditor.
Mr. Hobhousetrusted that the bill would be passed into a law during the present session. He thought that, with regard to the recovery of small debts, the laws at present existing were a great practical evil, and that the bill to limit Arrests on Mesne Process, which had recently been brought in by the Solicitor-general, and passed with so much haste, rendered the present measure more particularly necessary. The bill of the Solicitor-general went to deprive the creditor of a part of the remedy he had previously enjoyed; and that loss ought to be made up to him by the advantage of at once giving him a greater facility in recovering small debts. He was no advocate for continuing the practice of imprisoning debtors, a practice which he should be happy to see abolished altogether; but his opinion was not that which was generally entertained; and he did, therefore, think, that when the legislature proposed to deprive the creditor of an important part of his remedy, they should afford him an equivalent for it. That equivalent was to be found in in-
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creasing the amount which the creditor might recover by process in the county courts.
Lord Althorpwished, as much as his hon. friend, that the bill might be passed this session, but he feared it would be impossible. They could never hope to pass the bill without the compensation clause; which could not be satisfactorily settled, in the short time that would elapse between the present period and the end of the session. He did not hesitate to avow, that the present bill was an improvement on that which he had himself introduced. He believed that, if once the machinery of the county courts could be properly put into action, one year of experience would enable them to suggest more improvements than they could hope to discover by the debates of many years.
Mr. Humewas happy to hear the Attorney-general make admissions which, on a former occasion, he had seemed to disavow. He alluded to that learned gentleman's sentiments upon the subject of imprisonment for debt. In listening with pleasure to the opinions which that learned gentleman had just expressed upon that subject, he could not but recollect how that learned gentleman had treated him, when he had proposed the very same measure which the right hon. member had now introduced. When he had proposed it, the learned gentleman had treated it as wild and theoretical; but now it came from the right hon. gentleman, it was a proposition very fit to be considered. He saw, from this circumstance, that men and not measures were regarded by the learned gentleman; since to that which he had before treated very cavalierly, he was now ready to afford his approbation.
The Attorney-Generalsaid, that the bill introduced by the hon. member for Aberdeen, and the present, were far as the Poles asunder. If he approved of the bill now offered, it was not because it was brought forward by a different individual, but because the right hon. gentleman knew more of the laws of the country than the hon. gentleman. He must say, that the hon. gentleman knew little or nothing of the laws of England. He might be a good arithmetician; he might be able, as had been said by a predecessor of his, to calculate the compound interest of a guinea for a century, on his thumb nail; but he might nevertheless be neither a Solon nor a Lycurgus.

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Leave was given to bring in the bill.