Sitting of 13 June 1827

PAUPER LUNATICS OF MIDDLESEX.
Mr. R. Gordoncalled the attention of the House to the motion of which he had given notice, respecting the state of Pauper Lunatics in Middlesex. He particularly referred to the dreadful state of misery in which the Pauper Lunatics of the parishes of Mary-la-bonne and St. George's were situated. When the overseers of the parish of St. George visited Dr. Warburton's asylum, they found, in a room eighteen feet long, sixteen cribs, with a patient in each crib, some of them chained and fastened down, and all of them in a state of great wretchedness. On one occasion, a visitor having gone there, and reported that there was nothing objectionable in what he had seen, went again the next day, and discovered five rooms, in which the patients were in a most horrid state of misery. This he found out, although, when he was there the day before, he was informed that he had seen every thing. The unfortunate persons placed in these cribs were kept there from Saturday until Monday; their food being administered to them while in them. The infirmaries were another subject of just complaint. When a medical person visited them, the patient was brought into another room, and put on a decent bed; for the infirmary was kept in so shocking a state, that the keepers were unwilling that it should be seen; but, as soon as the medical person was gone, the patient was reconducted to the crib.—He spoke of this asylum previous to the 26th of February, when it was visited by lord Robert Seymour. A temporary change for the better might have been since made; but what security had the House for its continuance? On the facts that he had stated, and others which showed still more the extreme wretchedness of the condition of the pauper lunatics of Middlesex, he

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would first refer these facts to a select committee; and secondly, move for leave to bring in a bill for amending the 14th Geo. 3rd, ch. 49, and of extending its provisions to pauper lunatics, By this bill, he proposed to give further powers to magistrates, and to subject these asylums more to the superintendance of the overseers of the parishes, than they at present were liable. He would also propose that, in cases of the death of pauper lunatics, a coroner's inquest should be held, as in jails. In all asylums, where the number of patients amounted to one hundred, there should be a resident medical man, who should keep a diary of the medicines administered, and of the general treatment of each patient; a practice which had been attended with great advantage, in accounting for the causes of the deaths in the Penitentiary, and in assisting to check an epidemic distemper which broke out there. —The last alteration he would propose was, that convalescent patients should not, as in Dr. Warburton's asylum, act as attendants on the other patients. In that asylum there were two hundred patients, and only two male and two female attendants; all the business of the House being done by assistant patients. This was doubly injurious—injurious to the convalescent patients, as the business retarded their recovery; and to the other patients, as they were attended by persons not fit properly to take care of them. The number of recoveries of patients in the vicinity of London was very disproportionate to the number of recoveries in other places, where there were proper lunatic asylums. For instance, in Norfolk and Gloucester, one half of the patients recovered; whereas in Middlesex not one tenth ever sufficiently recovered to be discharged.—The hon. member having remarked upon the disadvantage of a lunatic asylum being in such a crowded state as that of the White House at Hoxton, where there were not less than four hundred patients, concluded by moving—"That a select committee be appointed to inquire into the treatment of Pauper Lunatics in the county of Middlesex, to consider the propriety of extending the provisions of 14 Geo. 3rd, c. 49, to Pauper Lunatics, and of the consolidation of all acts relative to Lunatics, and Lunatic Asylums, and of making further provisions relative thereto."
Colonel Woodthought the hon. gentleman was entitled to great praise for having
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brought forward the motion. He cordially concurred in every word that had fallen from him. The means of accommodation for pauper lunatics was a great desideratum in the county of Middlesex; and he was happy to state, that it was the intention of lord Robert Seymour to bring forward a motion at the quarter sessions, in July next, for the erection of a pauper lunatic asylum for the county of Middlesex.
Mr. Secretary Bournethanked the hon. mover for having brought this interesting subject underthe consideration of the House. The only doubt on his mind was, whether, instead of moving for a committee, it would not be better to proceed to legislate by bill at once; for the information which the hon. gentleman had collected was evidently of the best description. In fact he could himself confirm part of it.
Mr. Liddellapproved of the motion, and complimented the hon. member for his exertions on the subject.
Mr. Spring Ricehighly approved of the motion. He was persuaded that it would be found, that the present establishments were calculated only for the custody of lunatics, and by no means for their cure.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonwas desirous, if possible, that the report of the committee might be made in the present session. The rumours afloat, many of which, he had no doubt were exaggerated, demanded inquiry.
Mr. S. Bournebelieved that some of the reports respecting Mr. Warburton's establishment were much exaggerated.
Mr. R. Colborne,while he admitted that some of the reports in circulation were perfectly true, must say that others were much exaggerated. Mr. Warburton had always been ready to give every information in his power. He believed the only effectual way of remedying the evils complained of would be by building a county lunatic asylum.
Mr. M. A. Taylordeclared that, in his opinion, there was not a chance for an individual confined in these asylums becoming convalescent. Many of them were sent to them by overseers of parishes, who bargained for the cheapest terms; and in some cases gave only 8s. a week. The hon. gentleman described the state of destitution in which some of these unfortunate creatures were left. A more horrible sight he had never witnessed. He trusted that some

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humane legislative provisions would be adopted with a view to remedy the evils.
Mr. Estcourtwished the hon. gentleman would move for a general bill; which, having been introduced, might be circulated through the country during the recess; the result of which step would be the production of much more information than could be obtained by any parliamentary inquiry during the present session.
Sir F. Burdettdeclared that, in his opinion, there was no subject which more loudly called for interference than this. No persons stood in greater need of legislative protection than the unfortunate individuals under consideration. Being paupers as well as lunatics, they had a double claim on general humanity. He highly approved of his hon. friend's proposition; but he thought that the more extensive it could be made the more advantageous it would prove. Not only was it necessary to look to the manner in which pauper lunatics were treated in the establishments in question, but it was also highly expedient to place some check on the manner in which they were put under restraint. It appeared to him, that something more than alienation of mind ought to be required. It should be proved, that the aberration was one of a dangerous character.
Mr. R. Gordonsaid, he wished the House would permit him to pursue his original plan. That great mismanagement existed in lunatic asylums, was notorious. He would give a proof, in which one lunatic employed to take care of another actually scooped out the eye of the man upon whom he was employed to attend. If the committee were appointed to-morrow, he would submit to it by Monday the outline of a bill which he wished to introduce.
The motion was agreed to, and a committee appointed.

CORN BILL.
Lord Goderichsaid, he had been asked last night to explain what course government meant to pursue with respect to the Corn bill, in consequence of the decision which had been come to by their lordships. He had been asked, if it was his intention to propose, in any other stage of the bill, that the amendment should be rescinded; and on what day he meant to move the third reading. He did not then feel himself at liberty to answer those questions; but it was fit he should now do so. He felt that, after the decision which the House had come to, for the second time, on the amendment, any attempt on his part to induce their lordships to depart from that decision would be quite out of the question. He must now consider that the bill, as amended, had received the sanction of their lordships; and he had last night stated the grounds on which he thought the clause not only objectionable, but fatal to the measure. Under these circumstances, it was not possible for him to undertake to propose the third reading of the bill; and he, therefore, wished it to be understood that it was not his intention to proceed with it.
The Earl of Malmesburycould not regret that the measure had been abandoned; but he was still ready to meet his noble friend in furthering any project for amending the existing system. He should be glad to see the act of 1822 brought into

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operation, by doing away the clause which prevented foreign corn from being imported till the price rose to 80 s.
Lord Ellenboroughthought that this suggestion of his noble friend deserved the serious attention of government. He feared, however, that the bill of 1822 was purposely kept suspended over them, to force parliament to adopt a worse and more objectionable measure.
Lord Goderichsaid, that the bill of 1822 was so much opposed to the present measure, that government could not bring it into operation.
The Duke of Wellingtonwished to know if there was any motion before the House? Though his noble friend had expressed his intention not to bring on the third reading on Friday, still the order was not discharged.
Earl Greywas desirous to state the motives by which he was actuated in the course which he had felt it his duty to pursue. It was perfectly at the option of the noble lord, if he thought the amendment vicious, to abandon the bill; but he wished to observe, that he did not support the amendment, as being opposed to the principle of the bill. He would never lend himself to the unworthy purpose—and he was quite sure the noble duke would not—of opposing indirectly that which he supported directly. He had voted for the amendment, thinking it to be an improvement; as tending to check the abuses which arose under the bonding system. Thinking, as he did, that the manner in which the bill was introduced, in a season of clamour, was highly objectionable— thinking, also, that the government was much to blame in listening to that clamour—thinking, too, that for the last six years corn had never risen too high—it appeared to him, that no case was made out for the immediate interference of the legislature. But, while he felt that many objections might be urged to the manner and time in which the bill was introduced, it became a question with him, whether he could give it his sanction, without too great a sacrifice of that interest which he was anxious to uphold. However, he acquiesced; but never with the most remote idea that, in any of the stages of the bill, the deliberative powers of that House should not be exercised; and, therefore, it was that he voted for the amendment of the noble duke. There was danger of a glut of corn in the market, and the amendment was intended
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to guard against it. An alteration had also been made, by which bonded corn was to be brought into the market, not at 63 s., as originally proposed, but at 66 s.; and this he thought a great improvement. Every other part of the bill remained unchanged. It was simply this alteration with regard to bonded corn that was objected to by noble lords opposite; and he did not think that, in their view, such alteration could be supposed so far to vitiate the bill, if they considered it beneficial in other respects, as to make them feel it their duty to abandon it. That the amendment (added the noble earl) is a partial contradiction to the principle of the bill, I admit. But I have, of late, heard much in this House of distinctions, where I can see no difference. I do not see any difference between absolute prohibition and a duty which shall be so high, under the name of a protecting duty, as to amount, in fact, to a prohibition. The amendment is in opposition to the technical principle of the bill; but are there no other parts of the bill which are contradictions of this principle? Is not the reciprocity clause a contradiction? Does not that give to ministers the power of stopping the introduction of corn? There can be no question of the sincerity of the noble lord in the course he has pursued: and I have no doubt that he pursues that course from a sincere conviction that he is only discharging his duty; but it is not a little extraordinary, that the amendment should be thought so to alter the bill as to make it necessary that it should be abandoned. I do not think that any noble lord who is held worthy of taking part in his majesty's councils, can act so unworthily as to abandon the bill for the purpose of exciting the discontent of the country. All I shall say is this, that if it should produce that effect, I shall be ready to meet it. I stand here one of a body which will always be ready, firmly and honestly, to resist such effects—which always considers anxiously and feelingly the interests of the people, even when it must oppose the people themselves—and which will never consent, under the influence of fear, to give way to clamour [cheers]. If I am told, that we run the risk of having a worse bill, I shall never suffer myself to be intimidated by any such threat; and, if a worse bill should be sent up, I am sure your lordships would pursue the course you have pursued by the present bill. You would consider it; and you

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would amend it; and if you could not make it good, you would reject it. I am sure that any such measure shall be met by me with a firm opposition, and that I shall be prepared to do my duty to myself. I have said thus much, and I might say a great deal more. If there should come a contest between this House and a great portion of the people, my part is taken; and, with that order to which I belong, I will stand or fall. I will maintain to the last hour of my existence, the privileges and independence of this House [cheers].
The Marquis of Lansdownrose merely to answer the question of the noble duke. There was no question now before the House, and therefore any discussion on the subject was irregular. His noble friend had only wished to state his reasons for not moving the third reading of the bill on Friday; but as the order was not discharged, it was competent to any other noble lord to move it if he thought proper.

CRIMINAL LAWS.
Lord Tenterden,in rising to move the second reading of five bills which had come up from the other House for amending the Criminal-laws, said that they had originated with a right hon. gentleman (Mr. Peel), whose ability and exertions in bringing them forward could not be too highly commended. It was fortunate for the country when a gentleman of comprehensive mind, not bred to the law, turned his attention to the subject, for those who were bred to the law were too often, by habit, dull to its imperfections. He could not help thinking that the bills would be most valuable to those who were engaged in the administration of justice in the country.
Lord Ellenboroughdoubted not that these bills would be a very great improvement in the criminal laws of the country; but he thought it would be impossible, at that late period of the session, to go into an examination of their merits; as there were not less than one hundred and thirty acts which it would be necessary to look over. He therefore thought it would be necessary for the House to have an assurance from the learned lord, that he had consulted those acts, and felt satisfied of the expediency of the measures now proposed.
Lord Tenterdensaid, it would be presumption in him to give such an assurance; but a paper had been put into his hand, re-
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ferring him to every clause in the new bills; and, in his opinion, the committee would be the proper stage for considering all the details.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that the bills had long been under the anxious consideration of his right hon. friend, who had been assisted in his labours both by the learned lord, by himself, the late Attorney-general, and the present Solicitor-general.
The bills were read a second time.