Sitting of 20 February 1827

CANADA CLERGY RESERVES.
Mr. Wilmot Hortonmoved for leave to bring in a bill to authorise the Sale of Clergy Reserves in Upper and Lower Canada. The object of the measure was, he said, to enable the corporative of the clergy in Canada to dispose, by private contract, of the lands reserved for the clergy in 1791; with respect to which it was originally arranged that they were to be disposed of to the Canada Company. By alienating a part of the provision appropriated to the clergy by the Canada act of 1791, the value of the remaining portion would be improved, and the country relieved from the expense annually voted for the supply of the Protestant Clergy in that part of the world.
Mr. Stanleysupported the motion. The short acquaintance he had recently had with the provinces of Canada enabled him to state, that whatever might be the differences of political and party feeling in that country—and there was no place where party feeling ran higher—no person entertained a difference of opinion as to the pernicious tendency of the Clergy Reserves. When Mr. Pitt brought forward the Canada bill in 1791, he distinctly specified, that the arrangement then made must be subject to such modifications as might afterwards be deemed expedient. The experience of thirty-five years had demonstrated not only the inconvenience, but the absolute mischief, which resulted from that arrangement. The appropriation of Clergy Reserves in Canada had operated as a serious obstacle to agricultural improvement. The making of roads, an object of so much importance to the colony, was checked by this arrangement for, as every man was obliged to make roads through his own estate, where these reserves occurred, the progress of road-making was either arrested, or the burthen

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thrown upon the owner of the contiguous land.
Mr. Humeexpressed his satisfaction at the measure proposed by the hon. Secretary. Nothing tended more to check the progress of improvement in Canada, than the allotment of land to the clergy. He should be glad to know the details of the new arrangement made between his majesty's government and the Canada company. He trusted also, that these reserved lands would be disposed of by some public mode of purchase, so as to enable the proprietors of the adjoining lands to become purchasers. By these means, improvements in the cultivation of land, and in the making of roads, would be more rapidly carried on.
Mr. W. Hortonobserved, that measures would be taken to make it imperative on the clergy td co-operate in the making of roads, and in carrying other improvements into effect. The lands in question were the properly of the church of England, as secured to that church by the Canada act of 1791.
Mr. Baringsaid, he entertained strong objections to the appropriation of land in Canada specifically to the church of England; not because he objected to the church of England, for he was as zealous a member of that church as any gentleman in that House, but because he was anxious that the House should not sow the seeds of that very dissention which we now so lamentably deplored in Ireland. If we could contrive some means to make all the people of Canada church of England men, he should have no objection to such an expedient; but if the fact were, that the church of England had taken but slight root in Canada, and that the mass of Protestant Christians in that country were of different persuasions, by appropriating money and land to the church of England in Canada, we should be laying a foundation for future dissention, and for the separation of the colony from the mother country. The Attorney-general for Upper Canada had been examined on the subject of these church Reserves; and, in answer to a question, as to how many members of the legislative assembly in Upper Canada were church of England men, his answer was "two, he being one of the two." Now, he did not know of how many members the legislative assembly consisted; but it could scarcely be a number of which two formed, any considerable portion. He
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wished the House to be aware of the state hi which the church of England stood in Canada; for he was persuaded there was not a man of common sense in the country, who would not say, that, instead of promoting the interests of the church of England, by making a provision for it in Canada, we were placing it in a position to be scouted by that legislative assembly, of which two members only belonged to that church, one of those members being his majesty's Attorney-general. With respect to the arrangement for disposing of the church Reserves, he entirely concurred in the expediency of that measure.
Mr. W. Hortonobserved, in explanation, that whether the distribution of lands to which the hon. member alluded, was right or wrong, it Was done under the express authority of, and in obedience to, the provisions of the Canada Act, and could not, therefore now be called in question. All they proposed to do at present was, to dispose of a certain portion of those lands, in order that they might render the remainder more productive. With respect to what had fallen from an hon. member upon the subject of the expense of emigration, he begged to observe, that there were many parishes in England most willing to pay half the expense of the removal of their paupers in that way, without any hope of being repaid.
Mr. Warburtonthought, that in these times, it would have been better to make appropriations of land for the diffusion of education, rather than for the support of the church. The act of parliament reserved one-seventh part of the lands for the maintenance of the established church; but he wished to know whether it was not the intention of government to dispose of the produce of some of those lands, to educate the poor emigrants they were about to convey to Canada. It was not too late to revise the act; and he would most earnestly recommend them to do so, as well as to adopt some measures with respect to the importation of Canada corn. He would remind them of the expressions used by a great philosopher, a great political economist, and the founder of a great empire, the celebrated Dr. Franklin, in his interviews with a noble lord. That great man, in speaking of the colonists, observed, "That if they were to sow and to reap, and yet not be allowed to ship, the sooner the government of this country sent out transports to bring the people home again,

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it would be so much the better." The Canada corn bill had been passed for one year; but for some reason, with which he was unacquainted, it was not revived; and the attempt to produce a measure of the same kind had been defeated in the other House in the session before the last. He would, however, most strenuously recommend ministers to turn their attention to the subject; for, unless they could give the emigrants a market, it was useless to talk of the improvement of their lands.
Mr. Stanleybegged to observe, that in giving his unqualified approbation to the measure proposed, he must be understood as being perfectly aware of the nature of the property allotted to the church, and of being as sensible as any man of the monstrous absurdity of attempting to support what was called the established church, but which, in fact, never would be established. The present sale he understood to be for the improvement of the remainder of the lands given to the church; and as such it had his approval. It left, too, the question respecting the propriety of such grant precisely where it was; for the act of 1791, under the authority of which it was made, remained just as open to revision or amendment after that sale as it was before.
Mr. Waithmancondemned, in strong terms, the plan of giving lands in the colonies to any company whatever. He feared that, in such cases, the property was only turned to the purpose of enriching a few individuals, while the mass of those who were seduced by their promises and representations became the victims of their credulity. He had known a great many instances of that kind, and actually seen a person who had made his way back to England from Colombia, after being defrauded of money he had paid for land, and been disappointed in all the prospects held out to him. Many of the unfortunate settlers sent out by companies were, in fact, scattered over the country, instead of being settled down in the places which were promised to them.
Mr. W. Hortoncomplained of the kind of declamation used by the hon. alderman upon the subject. Nothing could be more absurd than to say all companies were unworthy, because the members of one had been guilty of deceit.
Mr. Dawson, (of Louth), condemned the whole project, as useless and impolitic. They now proposed to sell one part of the land for the improvement of the other;
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but the day of that improvement would never come. They would be obliged to have a commission to carry these measures into effect, and he had seen too much of commissions not to know that the whole would end in a system of jobbing. Lands never could be rendered productive in the hands of the church. In his own country the church lands were always the worst, probably from the leases being short, and there being no motive therefore for improvement. If the hon. gentleman wished really to improve the lands, let him grant long leases of them for 999 years, or thereabouts, and then the tenants would be stimulated to make them valuable.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

PRIVATE BILL COMMITTEES.
Mr. B. Cooperrose to propose the resolution of which he had given notice, respecting Private Committees. The adoption of this resolution he thought necessary to give effect to the excellent regulations prepared by the hon. member for Staffordshire, to whom the House and the country were much indebted for having taken up the subject. To render those regulations more complete, the privilege of voting on Private Committees should not be allowed to every member of the House. The consequence of such a privilege was, that members who did not attend the committee, and therefore knew nothing of what passed in it, were induced by the solicitation of friends to go and vote at the termination of the inquiry. Such a proceeding was manifestly unjust and mischievous, and ought not to be allowed to continue. It also happened, that some members who had a great deal of local information upon the particular subject of inquiry, were often omitted in the appointment of the original committee; but it was not, however, his intention to deprive a committee of the advantage of their assistance. He would only restrict them to the necessity of a special application to the House, to allow their names to be added to the committee.
The hon. member then proposed the following resolution:—"That after any committee on a petition for a private bill, or on a private bill, shall have been formed according to the new distribution of counties, individual members may be added thereto upon special application to the House, and that no member shall have a

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voice in such committee, unless he shall have been originally included within the new lists, or have been so specially appointed afterwards."
Mr. Mundyseconded the motion. The greatest inconvenience and mischief had, he said, arisen from members voting on private bills who had not attended to the details in the committee. He had himself on one occasion been requested to vote on a private bill, respecting which he knew nothing whatever. He refused to do so, and had expressed what he could not consider an improper indignation at such a request having been made to him. It was, in his opinion, an insult to a member, to ask him to vote under such circumstances.
The resolution was agreed to.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The resolutions of the committee to which the Army Estimates were referred being brought up,
Mr. Humesaid, that seeing the chancellor of the Exchequer in his place, he wished to ask him whether the estimates, as they stood, were meant to include all the expenses of the expedition to Portugal, or whether he intended to propose some addition at a future opportunity? He thought it was time for the right hon. gentleman to be looking about for the ways and means with which he was to pay the estimates.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it was impossible for him at that moment to say whether he should propose to the House that the additional expenses incurred by the expedition to Portugal should be defrayed by an addition to the army extraordinaries, or by means of a separate vote. In whatever shape it might be presented, he did not think it would be so formidable as the hon. member seemed to fancy.
On the first resolution being read,
Mr. Warburtonwished to know whether all the expense of the Portuguese expedition would be defrayed by this country, or any part by Portugal; and if so, what part?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that this government was not to pay the expense of the subsistence and the charges for barracks of the troops in Portugal; which were to be defrayed by the government of that country.
On the resolution for a grant to the Royal Military Colleges,
Mr. Humeobjected to the great expense incurred in the education of young men for the army at the Military Colleges, which bore no proportion to the number of cadets. In the last year only thirty-eight cadets, who had been educated at the Military Colleges had entered the army, and he believed that for some years there had not been more than ten young men at Woolwich.
Mr. Secretary Peelthought it was necessary that officers should be educated in such a manner as would qualify them for entering the service. The hon. member was mistaken in supposing that only thirty-eight cadets had been educated; for in time of peace two hundred, and in war four hundred, were educated at these colleges.
Mr. Maberlyadmitted that our officers ought to be properly educated for the service; but thought that that education should be at the charge of their friends. He was persuaded that, if the subject were referred to a committee above-stairs, a saving of ten thousand a-year might be effected.
Mr. D. W. Harveythought it would be very advantageous to refer, not only this particular subject, but the whole of the estimate for the Army, Navy, and Ordnance, to the consideration of a committee, by whom they might be minutely discussed, with a view to public economy. Such a mode of proceeding would also have the effect of doing away with much desultory conversation.
Mr. Secretary Peelobserved, that that was precisely what had been done in 1817, when a committee above-stairs had fixed the scale by which this part of our expenditure ought to be regulated.
Mr. D. W. Harveythought it would be serviceable to the country, if such a committee was appointed every seven years.
Mr. Alderman Waithmancomplained that there was no symptom of retrenchment manifested in the army. The country could not go on with a military establishment of 87,000 men. The navy was never more efficient; and on it the safety of the country mainly depended. It was on the principle that retrenchment ought to take place, that he had opposed the grant to the royal duke the other night; not on account of the sum proposed to be granted, but because he conceived it an outrage, that such a proposition

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should be brought forward at a time when they were planning the banishment to foreign countries of the flower of the people, through the absolute inability of subsisting them at home. The expense of the country was enormous, and he protested against it altogether. The distresses of the country must be taken into consideration, and the sooner the ministers sat about it the better.
Mr. Lomberemonstrated against the enormous expenses of the country, and particularly against the estimates for the land forces.
Mr. Monckmaintained that the estimates ought to be referred to a committee, The situation of the country had so materially changed within the last ten years, that it was necessary to revise the report of the committee of 1817. With respect to the particular vote before the House, he fully agreed with his hon. friend, that the whole effect of this very large expenditure was the education of thirty-eight young gentlemen.
On the grant being proposed, of 36,272 l. for maintaining his Majesty's Garrisons at home and abroad, for the year 1827,
Mr. Humesaid, that he had opposed this vote several years ago, and the time that had since elapsed had more and more convinced him of the necessity of adopting some salutary measure of reform, not only in this particular vote, but with regard to others. He objected to this grant, because he was opposed to the system of sinecures; and he meant to show that, with a few exceptions, the vote which the House was now called upon to pass was principally made up of pensions and sinecures. He would show that in this estimate of 36,272 l. the country was called upon to pay for a staff in places where no garrisons existed. In short, he meant to show, that the present vote was for the maintenance of a nest of sinecures. When it was proposed to the House in the first instance by the noble Secretary at War, he had said, that his majesty wished to have it in his power to bestow on officers who had distinguished themselves in the service, the appointments to the garrisons at home and abroad as a reward for public conduct. If that feeling had been acted upon in the present instance, he should not have felt it his duty to oppose this vote, but he knew that the opposite policy had been pursued with regard to it, and
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he believed it to be an undoubted fact, that persons were appointed no better qualified than he was to fill a military station. When he lately passed through Berwick there was not a gun in the garrison; the cause of which he (Mr. Hume) understood to be this:—When the radicals were making a noise in the country, threatening the destruction of property and what not, the governor of Berwick was so alarmed lest the guns of the garrison should fall into their hands, that he actually sent the guns from the place. Every gun in the garrison was swept away, but the governor himself remained. And what did this fear on the part of the governor arise from? Because the people were oppressed beyond their means; for it was nothing but mismanagement on the part of the government of a country that ever tempted its people to rebel. The effect attended upon the cause. He wished from his heart, that the government of this country might never have occasion to revert to a system grounded in fear; and he felt persuaded that the best mode of accomplishing this desirable object, would be to put an end at once to all useless pensions and sinecures, whether in the church, the army, navy, or civil departments. By reverting to a reduction of the church establishment, he felt that he might bring himself under the lash of certain gentlemen who were in the habit of considering church property as an interest vested hi the possessor. He would, therefore, refrain at present from pursuing that topic, and reverting to places and sinecures in the departments immediately connected with government, he would say, let all offices that were not necessary be abolished at once, in order that the public might benefit from the saving. The sum required for the garrisons in Great Britain, for the year 1827, amounted to 23,181 l. The governor of Berwick received an annual salary of 568 l., which would be paid out of this vote. The lieutenant-governor was also non-resident, and his salary amounted to 173 l. The town-adjutant was charged at 69 l. and the town-major at 69 l. What these people could have to do in such a garrison, he could not tell. The governor of Blackness Castle was non-resident, and his pay was charged at 284 l. per annum. There was not a single human being in this castle. The governor of Carlisle was a non-resident; his pay was 1721.; and the lieute-

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nant-governor, who was also non-resident, received 173 l. The governor and lieutenant-governor of Chester received 173 l., and were non-resident. The warden of the Cinque Ports was non-resident, and he received 474 l. a-year, as governor; the lieutenant-governor received 171 l., and the deputy 104 l. If these officers were; resident, all he could say was, that the return was erroneous. He should like td know whether a certain officer of Dartmouth had obtained his appointment for military or for parliamentary services. This governor used to be a member of that House, and of course, a ministerial member. This was an instance of the impropriety of these votes. The governor of Dumbarton was a non-resident. There was the appointment of a physician and others, forming a large establishment at the Tower. Some of these officers he found residing in Suffolk, and some in Norfolk. The most improper mode of rewarding services was by sinecures. He should, therefore, move the following amendment;—"That it is highly inexpedient, in the present state of the finances of the country, to keep up garrisons at a charge of 36,272 l. for the current year, when many of them are useless, and the offices, sinecures, and non-residents; (as for example, at Berwick-upon-Tweed, where there is not a gun on the ramparts, the estimate for the year is 882 l. for governor, deputy-governor, and staff); that, therefore, it is the opinion of this House, that every unnecessary and sinecure office of this kind should be reduced as they become vacant; and that, wherever it is necessary to grant rewards to officers of extraordinary merit, this House will, on due consideration of each case, grant such provisions as shall be; proper, instead of the present practice of granting them sinecure and useless military appointments in garrisons."
Sir A. Hoperose to oppose the amendment of the hon. gentleman, who had not proved that the situations of which he spoke were sinecures. With respect to the governor of Berwick, he had been sixty-two years in the service, and the lieutenant-governor forty-nine years, making a total of one hundred and eleven years passed in the service of their country. There was no class of officers, he won id venture to affirm, who deserved more from their country than those persons who were appointed governors of garrisons. It
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appeared that there were thirty-nine governors in all, whose united periods of service amounted to nearly two thousand years. The governor of Chelsea Hospital and himself had seen together a period of one hundred and four years' service. There were, it appeared, five hundred and eighty-eight officers at present on the list, and many had not a higher income than some hon. members of that House were in the habit of giving their head clerks. When it was considered that, however confined their means might be, they were expected to maintain their rank and dignity, the stipends which they received could hardly be considered excessive. It was not true that the army had gone on increasing in its expenditure. To instance one class of officers, he meant the colonels of regiments, they had not received the smallest addition to their pay since the reign of queen Anne.
Mr. Maberlysaid, that he had advised his hon. friend long ago, not to press his objections against these estimates, as such subjects could only be examined with effect in a committee. His hon. friend, however, had followed his own course: and, perhaps, after all, he did right in. keeping the subject so constantly before the public. It had, no doubt, the effect of putting a wholesome check to the expenditure of the country. The noble Secretary had admitted, that the committee appointed in 1817 had effected some good. But such a committee, if periodical, would be much more useful. He gave his hon. friend credit for his exertions, and thought that he had, in some degree, checked the prepress of expenditure. But he was of opinion, that these were subjects which could only be effectually treated by a committee; and, for his own part, if he were a member of such a committee, he would entirely concur with the gallant officer, that the services of the army deserved to be recompensed. He agreed, however, with his hon. friend, that the subject of sinecures ought not to be overlooked, and hoped that he would press the appointment of a committee.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, that the question was not one of detail, but of principle, and was therefore a proper one to be discussed by the House. These garrison appointments might be divided into two classes: those given to inferior officers, to which duties were attached; and those given to higher officers as a reward for

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services, and to which neither duties nor residence were attached. The first class was not under discussion. As to the latter class, he contended, that the appointment should be left to the discretion of the Crown. The committee of 1817 had recommended that these appointments should be continued. When he looked at the number of officers which an army like that of England must have, even on the most reduced scale, the Crown ought to have the means of rewarding those who had deserved well of their country. The hon. member had referred to Berwick. Now, when he mentioned the name of general Tarleton, would any gentleman suppose that he had obtained his situation for any support given to ministers in that House? It was well known that general Tarleton had, at a former time, though not very recently, performed most essential military services for the country. When he cited the names of lord Ludlow, general Abercrombie, sir Alexander Hope, sir Lowry Cole, lord Hill, lord Combermere, lord Hutchinson, and the duke of Wellington—when he mentioned these distinguished names, he defied any hon. member to say that the offices which they held had not been properly and usefully bestowed. The last part of the proposition now brought forward by the hon. member, was decidedly objectionable. These offices were held by the Crown. The hon. gentleman proposed to take them from the Crown, and vest them in that House. The House was to confer pensions equivalent to these appointments. If the hon. member had merely proposed that the Crown should grant equivalents in lieu of these offices, he should have felt it his duty to object to such an alteration. Rewards of this nature were a source of pride and distinction to those who, by their merit, obtained them. They were associated with the most gratifying recollections of their military career. Pensions would not be the means of exciting such pleasing and honourable retrospections. But, when the hon. member proposed to transfer the power from the Crown to that House, he must bog to remind him, that such an expedient would be a wide departure from the fundamental principles of the constitution. He looked upon the House of Commons as the most essential, and most useful branch of the constitution; but if the House attempted to wrest from any other portion of the legislature its peculiar
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functions, it would do an act more destructive to the essence of the constitution of the country, than had ever been done by any minister in that House. It did not belong to the House of Commons to command the army; and, consequently, not to interfere in the distribution of rewards for military services. On this ground alone, if he had no other objection, he would oppose the amendment of the lion, member for Aberdeen.
Mr. Baringsaid, that his hon. friend the member for Montrose; might possibly diminish his influence in the House by the manner in which he objected to every vote. It was, however, unquestionable, that his vigilance had been an insuperable obstacle to many objectionable practices and designs. It was quite impossible that the government could proceed in their present course, unless the people were called upon for the augmentation of taxes, or the finances were to be ruined. One of these two things must occur. The whole system of expenditure ought to be referred to a Committee of the House. The estimates were of a nature which, under the present state of its finances, the country could not supply. Government might say that such a scale of expenditure was necessary to uphold the honour and dignity of the country; but it was impossible for the people to meet that scale. The difference between those who had to spend and those who had to pay, was immense. It was not for government to say, that this garrison was useful, or that this establishment was essential. The question was, could the country afford it? He thought that the present estimate had been most satisfactorily accounted for by the gallant officer who had recently addressed the House, with whom he agreed in thinking that there were many meritorious officers who would gladly accept of a government of small value as a reward of their services, who would feel ill treated by the offer of a pension to the same amount. If, as had been stated, any abuses had crept in, in bestowing these appointments, the best way to expose them was, by giving them publicity. He was sorry to be obliged to oppose the amendment of the hon. member for Aberdeen.
Mr. Humesaid, he would meet the wishes of his friends, by withdrawing his motion.
Mr. Rickfordmoved as an Amendment,

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That the proposed grant be reduced by the sum of 173 l., being the salary of the governor of Dartmouth, who was nonresident, and not a military man.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that allusion having been made to governors who were not military men, he wished it to be understood, that the government of the Isle of Wight had never been considered a military appointment, that officer discharging the ordinary duties of a lord-lieutenant. The father of the earl of Malmesbury had been for a long time employed in diplomatic situations—a sort of office in which it was well known the individuals seldom made fortunes. He had received the reward of a pension and a peerage from his royal master, with the reversion of a part of that pension to his son. That portion of the pension the present lord Malmesbury had resigned for the government of the Isle of Wight, an office which would cease at his lordship's death, as it had in fact been abolished by the act of 1817.
Mr. W. Smithsupported the amendment, thinking that by putting an end to one of these sinecures, he should accelerate the extinction of abuses so often and so justly complained of.
The House divided: for Mr. Rickford's amendment 15; for the original resolution 45. The other resolutions were then put, and agreed to.

List of the Minority.

Baring, Alex.

Smith, W.

Dawson, A.

Thompson, C. B.

Easthope, J.

Wood, John

Harvey, D. W.

Wood, Ald.

Lennard, B.

Waithman, Ald.

Lombe, E.

Warburton, H.

Maberly, J.

TELLERS.

Monck, J. B.

Hume, J.

Pendarves, E. W.

Rickford, W.