Sitting of 16 February 1827

GRANT TO THE DUKE AND DUCHESS OF CLARENCE.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee on the King's Message for a Provision for the Puke and Duchess of Clarence, and the said Message having been read,
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose, and addressed the Committee as follows:— Sir; whenever parliament has been called upon on former occasions, to consider what provision ought to be made for the due maintenance of the station and dignity of different members of the royal family, the consideration of the degree of proximity which any individual of that family might have to the throne, has always been one of the most important
elements of that consideration. In the case of his late royal highness the duke of York, that principle was acted upon, even before he came to be so near the throne as he was at the time of his decease; for, during the life of his late majesty, indeed during the life of the princess Charlotte of Wales, the allowance he enjoyed from parliament was greater, in consequence of his proximity to the throne, than that which was assigned to the younger branches of the royal family. It will, perhaps, be as well for me here to state, what the income assigned to the duke and duchess of York, under these circumstances, amounted to. In the first place, his late royal highness derived 26,000 l. per annum from the consolidated fund. In addition to this, there was a pension on the Irish pension list, of 7,000 l. per annum, making together the sum of 33,000 l. The duchess had, for her own support, an annual income of 4,000 l., which, added to the 33,000 l. enjoyed by the duke, made 37,000 l. And it was thought, upon numerous occasions, when brought under the consideration of the House, that taking into view the relation which their royal highnesses bore to the throne, it was an allowance not more than sufficient for them to maintain the station in life which they were called upon to fill.—I will now state to the House, the income of his royal highness the duke of Clarence. That prince has a charge upon the consolidated fund of 26,500 l. per annum, but he is without any allowance whatever for the duchess. The whole of his royal highness's allowance is, therefore, only 26,500 l.: this is somewhat more than is assigned to the other junior branches of the royal family. It was considered but right that his royal highness should have 2,500 l. beyond the other junior branches of the royal family, for a reason which I shall presently stale. Sir, the income he now enjoys was assigned to him by various acts of parliament. The first act to which I shall allude, was passed at an early period of the late king's reign. It was to take effect after his death, and assigned to all the younger princes a sum of 60,000 l. per annum, which was to be divided between them in equal portions, with benefit of survivorship, until the sum enjoyed by the survivors should have reached 15,000 l. per annum each, The six younger princes, since that act came into operation, have enjoyed 10,000 l. per

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annum in consequence. This act was passed about the year 1778. On the death of the duke of Kent, the right of survivorship raised the sum of 10,000 l. enjoyed by the younger princes, to 12,000 l. It was under that law, then, that his royal highness the duke of Clarence receives 12,000 l. a-year. In 1806 another act was passed, giving 6,000 l. per annum additional to the younger princes of the royal family. This raised the amount of his royal highness's income to 18,000 l. By another act, the date of which I do not now exactly call to mind, a further allowance of 2,500 l. was made; but this ceased at the death of his late majesty. It was renewed in 1820. This made his royal highness's income 20,500 l. When his royal highness married, a proposition was made to increase his allowance on that account. An increase of 10,000 l. was, therefore, proposed to the House; but it was thought too much, and upon discussion was reduced to 6,000 l. Under all the circumstances, his royal highness felt that it would be more becoming in him to decline to accept the reduced grant. He, accordingly, did decline it; and that grant, therefore, was never carried into effect. In 1822, I think it was, that the proposition was renewed of allowing him 6,000 l. additional; as had already been done in the cases of the duke of Cambridge and another of his royal brothers. The House, I believe, almost unanimously consented; and this raised his royal highness's income to 26,500 l. the sum I have already alluded to. It may be well for me here to state, that, in 1820, until the civil list could be settled, which did not take place until some months after the demise of his late majesty, the allowances to the different princes of the royal family were charged upon the hereditary revenues, which occasioned some confusion in the accounts of that year; but in June an act was passed to regulate their payment. It was, at the same time, re-enacted, that the portion of the duke of Clarence, and the other younger princes' income, which had ceased by the death of his late majesty, should be continued. That act secured the same benefit of survivorship which had before existed. The effect of that was, by the death of the late duke of York, to put his royal highness the duke of Clarence, into the possession of 3,000 l. per annum beyond what he enjoyed previous to that event.
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This raised his income to 29,500 l.; the law, at the same time, preventing the possibility of any further increase by right of survivorship, as that 3,000 l. made the sum of 15,000 l., which was the limit the law had set to the operation of that right. I have thus explained to the committee the amount of his royal highness's income; but nothing, as I before stated, is allowed for her royal highness the duchess. I therefore propose to submit to the consideration of the committee, the propriety of placing their royal highnesses on the same footing, with respect to income, with that enjoyed by the duke of York. There are certain differences between them, which I beg leave to state. The late duke of York, in addition to his income of 33,000 l., had an allowance, as I before mentioned, of 4,000 l., on account of her royal highness the duchess. I shall, therefore, propose to add 3,000 l. to the income of 29,500 l. already enjoyed by his royal highness the duke of Clarence, which will raise his allowance to 32,500 l. I shall further propose, that an annuity of 6,000 l. per annum, be granted to the duchess during her husband's life-time. [A member called out, that that was, altogether, more than the duke of York had had.] That is true; but, in looking at this matter, it is necessary to take into consideration the difference between the professional emoluments of the one and of the other. It has always been considered, that the duke of Clarence, in the profession he embraced, was placed in a less favourable position than his royal brothers who entered the army. It was on this consideration, that the 2,500 l. I alluded to before was granted him, over and above the allowance made to the other junior princes. Upon these grounds it is, that I propose the grant. When matters of this kind are considered in this House, it is not considered necessary, and very properly, nor would it be consistent with dignity, to enter into any account of the personal merits of the royal individual, whose claims we may have under consideration. Grants of this kind are not made to the individual as an individual, but on account of his public station, and nearness to the throne. It is that which makes it the duty of this country to be liberal in its allowances to the members of the royal family. I therefore decline to rest the question upon claims of a personal nature; but I think I may say, with-

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out departing from respect or delicacy, that her royal highness the duchess of Clarence, a stranger among us, is as eminent for the graces of her mind as for her virtues, and that, although not a British-born lady, is yet one of that long list, who have done honour to this country, by the graces and amiability of their disposition and propriety of their conduct. I hope, Sir, I shall not be considered to have transgressed, in having said so much. I do not consider it necessary to trouble the House at greater length; but one observation, and I have done. It was not known to his royal highness that this proposition was to be made, until the message had received his majesty's signature, and a copy of it was sent him. If the House should think proper to assent to the proposition, no doubt his royal highness will receive its decision with due gratitude; but this I am bound to say, that the part of it which his royal highness has regarded with the greatest pleasure, is that which goes to place the duchess, whose virtues and excellence he must necessarily have the best means of appreciating, in an independent and honourable situation. I move, Sir,
1. "That His Majesty be enabled to grant a yearly sum of money out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, not exceeding in the whole the sum of 3,000 l., to his royal highness the duke of Clarence, for the further support and maintenance of his royal highness.
2. "That His Majesty be enabled to grant a yearly sum of money out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, not exceeding in the whole the sum of 6,000 l. to her royal highness the duchess of Clarence, for the further support and maintenance of her royal highness."
Lord Althorpregretted deeply that his majesty should have been advised to send down a message like the present to the House. If it could be shown, that in consequence of his change of situation, his royal highness the duke of Clarence would really be put to additional expenses, no doubt it was fit that he should be enabled to meet them; but, although he fully concurred with the chancellor of the Exchequer, that the personal virtues of the illustrious individuals concerned in questions of this description ought to form no feature in the deliberation of the
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House; and though he went further, and was ready to admit that, the private conduct of the duke of Clarence, as it appeared before the country, had been marked by a degree of economy and domestic management, which, to the full as much as any of his royal brothers, entitled him to the attention of parliament; yet he did not think that any case for the grant had been made out, and he was sorry, for the sake of his royal highness personally, and for the sake of the royal family altogether, that, under the circumstances of the country, it had been demanded. With distress and ruin running through every part of the kingdom, and with a revenue deficient four millions in the course of the last year, some good ground indeed ought to be shown for asking for any addition to the burthens of the people. The right hon. gentleman had said, that it was the constant custom of parliament to give to the heir presumptive to the throne a grant beyond that allowed to the other members of his family; but he had not adduced a single proof in support of that statement. The right hon. gentleman had quoted the income of the duke of York when he was not the heir presumptive; but he had not shown that a single shilling was added to it when he fell into that situation; therefore there was no precedent for the grant made out at all. But, even if a precedent could have been found, he thought it would have been more to the honour of the royal family, if, in a moment of distress like the present, the demand had not been brought forward. He regretted that the message had been sent down, and that his view of what was his duty to the country compelled him to make these observations; but, feeling as he did, he had no choice but to oppose the motion.
Mr. Humereminded the House, in the first place, that the duchess of Clarence had already 6,000 l. a year secured to her by parliament.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that that grant was only applicable in case of the duke's death.
Mr. Hume.—Well, the money, at all events, had been granted; but he would not go into that. Could the House, he would only ask, satisfy itself that it was doing its duty in the present state of the country, in voting a grant of 9,000 l. a year to the duke of Clarence, in addition

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to the 3,000 l. which his royal highness had already got by the death of the late duke of York? The income which the duke of Clarence enjoyed from his appointments would make his revenue not less than 40,000 l. a year. Could it tend to the honour of the Crown, or make the people satisfied with the system of monarchy, if that system, under such circumstances, was to be supported at such an expense? If the chancellor of the Exchequer looked at the paper which he ought to have in his possession, he would find, that the civil list of this country amounted to 1,557,000 l., great part of which was purely applicable to the maintenance of royalty. The civil list of Scotland furnished 200,000 l. more; a large proportion of which was available for the same purpose. The pensions on the last year list, paid to members of the royal family (including the allowance to the prince of Saxe Coburg) amounted to no less than 234,500 l. Now, in addition to this, we were called upon to vote 9,000 l. a year more to the duke of Clarence, making the amount 243,500 l. Let the House listen to the cries for economy and reduction, which were proceeding from all parts of the country. No other assembly in the world would turn a deaf ear, as the House was doing, to the prayers of the people. A member of the government, the hon. Secretary for the Colonies, had alluded, only a night past, to a petition from the town of Blackburn. That petition he had presented; and the title of it was, "The Petition of the Starving Weavers of Lancashire." Thousands of workmen were out of employ in that town: men, women, and children had died, or were perishing, of actual hunger. Their prayer to the House was, that something might be done, which would provide them with sufficient food of the vilest kind, only to support nature: and the answer was, a motion for an additional grant of 9,000 l. a year to the duke of Clarence! Calls of the same description with those from Blackburn were coming from Manchester, from Glasgow, from almost all our manufacturing towns. There was a deficiency in the last, year's revenue of more than 5,000,000 l.; and yet the House, was told, that we had an effective finking fund of 5,000,000 l., and was called upon to vote more money away! No man in the House was bettor aware than himself of the humane and charita-
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ble disposition of the duke of Clarence. He knew that to various public institutions, his royal highness had devoted much of his particular attention. He believed, too, that his present majesty had the character of being as humane as the other branches of his family; and if that was the fact, he was utterly unable to believe that ministers had truly laid before him the state of the country. He could not believe that his majesty, with the knowledge of the real state of so many thousands of his subjects, would have sent down such a message as the present to the House. If the truth could be known, he believed it would be found that the message was not that of the king, but of the ministers who sat opposite, and who had advised his majesty to take this course, that they might worship the rising sun, and give an example of their prompt obedience to the power that was likely to be; as had been done in the case of the allowance to the prince of Saxe Coburg on his marriage—a case of the most profligate inattention, on the part of both sides of the House, to the interests of the country. At this moment, too, an application of this kind came with peculiar ill grace, for only a few days had elapsed since, in pursuance of the king's letter, the aid of the church was called in, to institute collections for the relief of the distressed manufacturers; a step which he lamented, because nothing was more derogatory to the kingly dignity, than that his majesty should have been advised to ask alms of his people, to save their fellow-creatures from starvation. All who felt as he did for the honour and dignity of the Crown, must, have lamented that, the state professed itself unable, by any other means, to procure relief for the famishing poor. It was most humiliating and painful to have lately seen the beadles and parish officers passing from door to door, and for what?—to beg alms, by virtue of the king's letter, for the starving and distressed manufacturers. Was it, then, he would ask, consistent with that measure which avowed the inability of the government to afford any public pittance in the cause of suffering humanity, to come forward with such an application as this? What amount of subscription had the king's letter produced? What pittance was furnished by that only means which the government had advised his majesty to resort to, for the relief of starving

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Englishmen? Had it produced as much as was now called for, merely to give one year's addition to an already princely income? Had it produced half the 9,000 l. a year now demanded? Under such circumstances as these, he would not hesitate to say, that the ministers who had advised his majesty to recommend these begging applications from door to door, ought not to have ventured, within a very few weeks, to have acted so much in contradiction to such a recommendation. If, in the present situation of the country, the parliament could find any money to spare, let them give it to those who had a prior claim on their sympathy: let them give it for bread to their fellow countrymen, who were dying for want of it; and let them refrain from becoming parties to rendering the royal family odious in the eyes of the people over whom they were destined to reign. This was, forsooth, a pretty time to call for an addition of 9,000 l. a-year to an income which was already 29,000 l. If they looked even to the principle of these royal grants, they would in vain seek for a precedent for such a motion as this. The million a-year composing the expenditure of what was called the civil list was given to sustain the state and paraphernalia of royalty. What state was the duke of Clarence particularly called upon to assume in his present situation? If there were any man in England of high rank who bore more than another a character for attention to economy in his expenditure, and to a disregard of expensive and showy forms, that person was the duke of Clarence. As a plain and good Englishman, imbued with proper feelings, his royal highness stood above all these considerations. Indeed, the chancellor of the Exchequer had disclaimed putting the merits of; the motion upon personal grounds, and strictly confined it to the claim of rank. Then taking him at his word, he would ask, had not the duke of Clarence at present enough for the rank which he wished to assume? Was he, in fact, in the habit of spending what he already had in the maintenance of rank? If he was not, then more was superfluous. It was uncalled for, and therefore unnecessary. Referring for a moment, to the civil list, he thought that of late years, a large portion of it had been completely wasted: the expenditure had not been properly attended to, so that the
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ministers ought rather to have been advised to come down to that House, to recommend its reduction, than to call for any addition to the civil list, in the present circumstances of the country. He was amazed at the present proposition. He wondered how it was possible, with such misery apparent all over the country, that any man, bearing the human character, could venture gravely to ask for this grant; at any rate, he must express his astonishment that his majesty's ministers, bearing, as he knew they deservedly did, characters for benevolence and humanity, at least such of them as were in that House—[laughter and cries of "hear."] It was certainly rather invidious for him to make exceptions; but when he alluded to the ministers in that House, he could speak more of his own personal knowledge of their characters, and could therefore bear direct testimony in their behalf. Speaking from this experience, he should hardly have thought it possible they could have persuaded themselves to make such a proposition. Made as it was, however, he entreated the House to pause before it sanctioned the claim, and to allow itself time to hear the expression of the public voice upon it. Let the voice of the people guide them this once upon the question, and they would, in the end, find that they had taken the right course in not yielding implicitly to the wish of ministers. He would particularly address himself to the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department, and ask him how he could reflect with satisfaction upon this act, when he had before him various supplications from Glasgow alone, where above ten thousand artisans were borne, down by want to the lowest pitch of human misery? How was it possible he could countenance the present application for 9,000 l. a year additional to an income of 29,000 l. a year, with the cries of tens of thousands of distressed operatives in his ear, who, though dying for want, were nevertheless not betrayed into any disobedience of the laws. He begged pardon for dwelling upon this subject, but he had no hesitation in asserting that if the House yielded to this claim, they would be acting without a clue attention to the interests which they were expressly bound to guard. He hoped they would not consent to please a few, at the expense of the many. Better, far bettor would it be, to see the latter comfortable, than to grant this ad-

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ditional sum of money; especially when it was distinctly avowed that the royal personage had not called for it. He absolved the duke of Clarence from any participation in the odium of this application. It was the act of the king's ministers, and that House ought not to yield a passive obedience to such personages. It was a question involving the honour of the House, the honour of ministers, and the honour of the royal family. There ought to be time allowed for the consideration of such a subject; and with that view he should move an adjournment of the debate, not for the purpose of committing members to oppose the grant, but merely to enable them to decide upon it after more mature deliberation. He should, therefore, conclude by moving, that the chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Colonel Woodexpressed his regret, that the noble lord and the hon. gentleman should have opposed this motion, which he had hoped would have passed unanimously. He could not by any means see what injustice was done the country, by placing the heir presumptive upon the footing of his predecessor. Nothing was, he knew, more unpleasant than to provoke individual comparisons; yet it was almost unavoidable upon such an occasion as this. He would then say, that either the income granted to the late duke of York, thirty years ago, was most extravagant, or there could not be any impropriety in the present claim? Why was 39,000 l. a year not deemed an improvident income for the duke of York, if the proposed augmentation for the duke of Clarence were thought unreasonable. How were they to escape from this dilemma? As to the argument about the condition of the country, it was not a liberal way of treating a question of this sort to put the distresses of the country in contrast with the allowance necessary for the due maintenance of the royal family. He sincerely believed that the people would never wish to sec their royal family straitened in circumstances; but, on the contrary, would always prefer to seethe Throne surrounded with dignity and just splendor. The hon. gentleman was wrong in arguing this proposition, as if it were a call upon the country for an additional giant of 9,000 l. a year from the public burthens. It was no such thing: the case stood thus. A large saving had just fallen in by the
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lamented death of the duke of York; and it was merely intended, that this saving should be less by the grant of this particular sum to the duke of Clarence. The people, he was quite sure, deeply regretted that the late calamity had occurred, and would have much preferred to have continued the payment of the duke of York's income, if his valuable life could have been preserved. To the truth of what had been said of the duchess of Clarence, he could speak more particularly from the circumstance of his residing at no great distance from the duke's residence. He could speak positively of the universal opinion which prevailed there, of her royal highness's benevolence, and likewise of the habits of economy to which the duke adhered, as far as was consistent with his high situation. He sincerely hoped that the opposition to this motion would be withdrawn, and that it would be carried unanimously.
Mr. Curwenregretted that this question had been brought forward, for nothing could be more painful to him than to give the vote which his sense of duty called upon him to give. If the country was able to afford this grant, he had no individual objection to it; but when he knew that, from one end of it to the other, the cry of distress was general, he could not, without a violation of duty, hesitate to oppose it, and he was ready to do so at once, for he required no postponement to make up his mind upon it. The circumstances of the country imperatively called for economy, and the refusal of this grant would, he hoped, be the prelude of their performing similar acts of justice to their constituents.
Mr. Monckconcurred with his hon. friend, in his expression of pain at being obliged to oppose this motion. He had not heard a single argument from the chancellor of the Exchequer in favour of it. It was in vain to refer to the addition made to the incomes of the royal family in 1806; for that addition was expressly called for, on account of the rise in the price of all the necessaries of life. The act of 1806, therefore, furnished no precedent for such a claim as this. Were the royal family alone to have a reserved interest in the fluctuations of the price of provisions, and were the people never to have a similar chance in their favour? Willing as he was to support the due splendor and dignity of the royal family,

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he never could consent to such a grant as this. He disliked these attempts to make the monarchy too expensive for the means of the nation, and to provoke comparisons between its cost, and that of the forms of governments in other countries. Like his hon. friend, he preferred the manlier course of meeting the motion with a direct negative, than calling for further time to make up his mind upon the vote which he ought to give.
Mr. Broughamexpressed his regret at being obliged to concur in the view taken of this question by his noble friend, and the other hon. friends who had preceded him. No man could be more willing than he was, to lend his humble assistance to every measure which was calculated to support, on a just and splendid scale, the state and dignity of the royal family; and if any case of exigency could be made out to justify the present claim, he should have no hesitation to assent to it. But, had ministers attempted to press a case of exigency? No. The question rested plainly on this simple statement—that the melancholy event of the demise of the duke of York had imposed upon the duke of Clarence, as a consequence, the necessity of incurring a greater expenditure, in maintaining his rank, than he had been previously called upon to incur. Where was the proof of this necessity? Where had it been shown, that his royal highness had any estate or dignity necessarily to support as heir presumptive, which he had not equally to maintain in the lifetime of his brother? If it could be shown that his royal highness's present income was insufficient for his proper and becoming scale of living, and that it was fit and reasonable it should be increased now that he had become heir presumptive, then the case would be different; but the chancellor of the Exchequer had made out no such case: he had not even attempted to state it: his claim was therefore groundless, and must he considered as untenable. He had said, indeed, that on former occasions of settling the income of the royal family, regard had been had by parliament to the consideration, whether or not the prince of the blood was in the immediate succession to the throne. That assertion was incorrect; for no such distinction had been marked out on the occasions alluded to. Certainly, none had been taken in 1806, when the 6,000 l. additional had been
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made to the incomes of all the royal princes, except in the instance of the duke of York's larger income, which had been settled long before; and no distinctive allowance had been required for the heir presumptive. Indeed, so far as the duke of York was concerned, the attempt to create a precedent for a higher income for an heir presumptive must totally fail; for, at the time when these allowances were fixed, his royal highness was not the heir presumptive, the then prince of Wales, his elder-brother, occupying that high station; nor was the duke of York so elevated, until after the lamented death of the princess Charlotte, when no claim of larger income was made in his behalf. The increased income of the duke of York was, therefore, not estimated by his rank as heir presumptive, he not being so at the time, but was framed in the year 1792, upon his marriage, and with reference to the scale of his then necessarily increased establishment. The duke of York received his increased allowance in 1792, undoubtedly not because he stood in a different relation, as a member of the royal family, from his younger brothers—not because he was heir presumptive, for he held not that seniority—but solely on account of his marriage settlement. This was capable of demonstration, by a reference to the discussions upon the subject in the year 1792, and also in 1806.—It was, then, he thought, quite clear that there was, in fact, no superior scale of income established, or even recognized by precedent, for an heir presumptive, as contradistinguished from the other younger princes of the royal family. Very different, indeed, was the condition of the heir apparent. In his case there was clearly, legally, and justly, a superior claim; for he was called upon to maintain a higher and a more responsible station. The king and queen, the queen consort, the heir apparent, and princess royal, were severally distinguished by law from all other members of the royal family. It was fit, then, when the law raised them to marked places of superior privilege and dignity, that parliament should give effect to the constitutional principle of such selection, by enabling them suitably to maintain their higher privileges. But no such distinction prevailed as to the heir presumptive. He was not called on to support more state than any other junior

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branch of the royal family. He was not called on to undergo any extraordinary expenditure to support his rank; and the only question, then, ought to be, was he sufficiently provided for already? It was surely for those who called now, for the first time, for this increase, to make out a case, showing in what the difference consisted in the situation of the heir presumptive from that which he had previously enjoyed as a member of the royal family, and how far it involved an increase of expenditure? Viewing the question, therefore, in this light, it was with great regret that he found himself compelled to call for further time, to inquire more maturely into the new circumstances in which the heir presumptive was supposed to be placed. Something had been said of the manner in which the grant of 1792 had been conferred; and the hon. colonel had urged, that if it were not wrong at the former time, it could not be improper now. All he should say in reply to that argument was this—that very possibly it might have been right in 1792, and yet that it was a precedent which it would be wrong to follow now. He was one of those who thought, that if the times had been as bad in 1792 as they were at present, probably the large grant would not have been voted at all; but, whether it was right or wrong, it was no part of their present business to inquire, for it clearly failed to furnish a precedent. They were now called upon to add 9,000 l. a year to the income of a member of the royal family, at a time of unexampled public, distress. The hon. colonel had told them, that this addition would not impose a new burthen upon the country; but it was a fallacy to say they would not save this 9,000 l. a year, and therefore to that extent relieve the public burthens, by retaining the benefit of the income which had just fallen in by the death of the duke of York. The hon. colonel asserted, that the country did not look very close at these matters, and was sure they would have preferred continuing to pay the larger income, rather than endure the calamity of his royal highness's death. He concurred with him in this appreciation of the public feeling; and it was just and right if should be so: but, because this saving of income did, in the course of nature, fall in, was it to be squandered at such a crisis as this, when the national finances disclosed a deficit, of so many millions over and above its re-
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sources—a crisis when distress pervaded all ranks of the community, and imperatively called upon the representatives of the people to save the last shilling they could retain of the public expenditure?—With reference to the illustrious individual for whom this grant, though unasked by him, was intended, he entirely agreed in the respectful sentiments which had been expressed towards him. But this was a question in which, undoubtedly, personal considerations ought not to be mixed. True it was, that the duke and duchess of Clarence had the least possible reason to deprecate the consideration with reference to persons; for they could, at least, upon public and private grounds, from the unanimous and unequivocal testimony borne to their character by those who had the best opportunities from personal intercourse of knowing it, meet the application of any such personal allusion. Nevertheless, he repeated, that he deprecated personal allusion here, for it was foreign to the present question. The House was now called upon to regulate his royal highness's income upon an increased scale, because of his being heir presumptive to the throne. There was no reference either to recognized public station, or private character, but a mere assumption of rank. There was, in fact, no argument whatever to call for the additional grant. It was, therefore, with deep regret, that he felt himself called upon, by a sense of public duty, to oppose the motion, having heard nothing that could justify him in giving it the sanction of his vote.
Mr. Secretary Peeladmitted, that, there was no subject so unpleasant as one like this, which referred to circumstances somewhat of a personal nature, and particularly when they applied to the condition of the royal family. When he was called upon to justify the proposed grant, he felt the difficulty, if not the impossibility, of demonstrating that 9,000 l. a year was the sum that ought to be added to the income of the present heir presumptive to the throne. Indeed, if the case admitted of so precise; a calculation, the details were of such a nature, that rather than enter minutely into them for the purpose of demonstration, he would prefer leaving every gentleman who heard him to draw the line of estimate in his own mind, and apply his computation to the amount now called for. The question was, he thought, really this. Was an addition of 3,000 l. a

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year to the income of his royal highness the duke of Clarence, and of 6,000 l. a year to his consort, since he had become heir presumptive, a reasonable claim or not? That, and that only, was the consideration into which he had hoped the House would have entered. He admitted that the present was a time when the imposition of any considerable expenditure ought, as much as possible, to be avoided. He likewise admitted, that even the expense of the decent splendor of royalty itself ought to be closely examined, and not be permitted to run into excess; still he would say, that the circumstances of the country were not such as to preclude the adoption of this grant, provided it were reasonably proportioned to the expenditure which the heir presumptive was called upon, from his high station, to incur. He repelled the odious charge which the hon. member for Aberdeen had presumed to cast upon himself and his colleagues, that they were influenced, in bringing forward this proposition, by a desire to curry favour with the personage next in degree to the reigning monarch, and contrasted that unworthy charge with the more candid admission of the hon. and learned gentleman opposite, that the real question had no reference whatever to personal considerations, and that he met it upon a sense of public duty alone. He gave that hon. and learned gentleman full credit for being influenced by such a motive; and, was it too much for him to claim in return for his majesty's ministers, that they had recommended this application—upon their own responsibility, and certainly not advised to do so by the duke of Clarence—from public considerations alone? He could assure the House, that the motion proceeded from better motives than any desire to recommend themselves to the grace and favour of the heir presumptive. He was ready, then, to put the question on the ground called for by the hon. and learned gentleman, and to say, that he honestly believed there would be that amount of additional expenditure, in the establishment of his royal highness the duke of Clarence, consequent upon his being placed in the situation of heir presumptive to the throne. He, likewise believed, that in that very situation, he would ho. exposed to claims of private benevolence, which, upon grounds of public importance, it was desirable he should be in a condition to satisfy; but, it was con-
534
tended, that the precedent of the duke of York's grant, did not apply to this case, because he did not stand, at the time of its arrangement, in the situation of heir presumptive. Perhaps, arguing the point with the precise definition of an abstract question of dry law, that might be true; but, practically, the case was different, and in point of fact, even supposing that the duke of York's larger income did not accrue to him as heir presumptive, the precedent à fortiori applied stronger in favour of the duke of Clarence; for in the former it appeared that, though not standing in the first degree, that income had been deemed necessary to support the royal duke in his marriage establishment. He must beg leave to correct the hon. and learned gentleman in his assertion, that when the duke of York's income was fixed, and even in the subsequent arrangements respecting the establishments of the members of the royal family, the proximity of his late royal highness to the succession to the throne, compared with that of his younger brothers, had not been taken into the consideration. Mr. Pitt had expressly said—" Do not think that this grant is an injustice to, or hardship upon, the rest of the royal family." It was proposed to vote so much to the duke of York, and so much to the duchess, making 33,000 l. for the duke, and 4,000 l. for the duchess. A judgment upon this question must be formed upon the united considerations of many circumstances which, as he had before observed, it was painful to touch upon. Many of them singly might be of little importance, but he contended, that the aggregate of them were of considerable weight; and, in discussing this subject, he could not dismiss from his mind, that when this 37,000 l. was granted to the duke and duchess of York, the duke was in possession of other property arising, it was true, from other sources and from other quarters. The income of the duke of York was nearly 50,000 l. a year: it was, he believed, as near as possible, 49,000 l. Now, the income of the duke and duchess of Clarence, who stood in precisely the same situation with the duke and duchess of York, would not, in the event of this grant being carried, exceed 38,000 l. What, the hon. and learned gentleman had said about the law recognizing only the heir apparent to the throne, and passing over heirs presumptive, was perfectly true. He was quite as well aware of this fact the

535
hon. and learned gentleman was; but why did the law not recognize heirs presumptive, and why had the House invariably considered them? Could there be any other reason, except that their claims to the throne were equally well founded with those of heirs apparent? In this case, were not the claims of the heir presumptive, in all human probability, as well founded as those of any heir apparent could possibly be? As to the case of the princess Charlotte, it must be recollected, that that princess was neither heir apparent nor heir presumptive; and yet her situation induced that House to allow greater resources for the maintenance of her rank and station. He must therefore say, that he did not think this grant of 9,000 l. at all too much. If the hon. member for Aberdeen had thought proper to exaggerate all the circumstances connected with this matter, and say that these 9,000 l. would furnish bread for many needy and distressed persons, he would answer "So would every other grant." And would there not, in all probability, be found distressed objects, upon whom such sums could be bestowed? Was not the honour and dignity of the Crown to be considered, as well as the distresses of individuals? And yet every grant to the Crown and to the royal family might be met by the hon. gentleman with precisely the same argument. That hon. gentleman had expressed his astonishment, and represented it as disgraceful, that his majesty had, by his advice, called in the aid of charitable individuals to the relief of the distresses of the country. Of the relief thus obtained, that hon. gentleman, by the bye, knew so little, as to call it 6,000 l. He believed that nearly 50,000 l. had been raised. So far, too, was he from considering that the advice he had given to his majesty reflected any disgrace upon him, or upon the government, that, if the same circumstances Mere unhappily to require the same remedy, he: would not hesitate for a moment, to recommend it. So far, indeed, from considering that the moans which had been thus adopted, either with respect to the distress in Ireland, or the more recent afflictions of this country, were derogatory to the: character of the government, he was prepared to contend, that they bore a very different character. Did not the hon. member know, that if it had been thought, expedient to apply 100,000 l., or any other sum, to the distresses of the manufacturing districts, it might have been had most
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willingly. But he ought at the same time to recollect, that the committee which sat then, and still sat, at the London tavern, were decidedly of opinion, that no such measure ought to be adopted. They deprecated, indeed, any such exertion of the royal prerogative, as likely to become a pernicious precedent; and declared their conviction, that it was much better that the funds should be supplied by private subscription than by public aid. These were the only considerations which had influenced him in the advice he then gave, and in the course he had followed; and he could not but regret, that the hon. member, in the opposition which he thought proper to give to the present motion, had chosen to mix up topics which had no possible connection with the question; and, instead of following the steps of the hon. and learned member and the noble lord, who preceded him, and whose opposition and whose protest were founded upon public grounds, had attached to the question arguments and accusations which bordered very strongly upon invidiousness.
Mr. Abercrombysaid, that, in his opinion, this proposition ought to be considered on public grounds. The plain and simple question was this: The duke and duchess of Clarence had an income of about 30,000 l. a-year; and he was to ask himself, whether, in the present situation of the country, he should be justified in voting an additional grant of 9,000 l. a-year. If any reason had been assigned for this increase, he should have been most willing to have listened to it, and if it had been a satisfactory one, to have allowed its full force; but, in the absence of all reason, either satisfactory or unsatisfactory, and having a public duty to perform, he should refuse his assent to the proposition. The chancellor of the Exchequer had repeatedly used the expression "proximity to the throne." This expression he could not understand. Was there any reason why the duke of Clarence should enter more into public life now than he had done before? He would say, that if a prince wished to establish himself in the affections of those who would, in all probability, at some future time, become his subjects, he would effect that object in a far better manner by leading a quiet and retired life, and that he might learn a lesson from the consequences which had resulted from other heirs apparent deviating from that line of conduct.

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A time more unfavourable than the present could not have been pitched on for the introduction of such a measure. He was convinced that he was about to give an honest and conscientious vote, and that by that vote he showed himself a better courtier than the right hon. gentleman opposite; because by that vote he established more strongly the honour and dignity of the Crown. The vote he was about to give would prove him to be a far better courtier than the right hon. gentleman who had introduced this proposition; for it was a vote which, so far from weakening the affections of the country for the monarchy and all connected with it, would strengthen its claims upon the people. As to what had been said about the case of the duke of York, it was impossible to make that case in any manner bear upon the present. The situation of the late duke of York, in 1792, was shortly this; his father was then on the throne; his brother was prince of Wales; and he himself was neither heir apparent nor heir presumptive. If the case of his late royal highness was to furnish the argument upon which the present proposal was to rest—and the House, upon this question, was to be governed by precedent,—that was a precedent which fell short, as regarded the subject matter of the proposed vote: for, if the case of his late royal highness was to be taken as a precedent at all, then the House ought to go one step further in this grant to assimilate it; but that that further step should be taken, no one had any desire. But the truth was, the present case did not at all follow the other. The words "proximity to the Crown" might have found their way into such former grant; but what was the true meaning of the word "proximity" in such a situation, certainly did not now appear. It was a word of so vague a signification, and conveyed to his mind, so indefinite an idea, that, in viewing the present question, he entirely discarded it from his mind. Then, again, as to the case of the princess Charlotte of Wales—that was one, likewise, essentially different from this. Her father was Regent at the time, with every probability of actually succeeding to the throne; and she, herself, stood in the situation of heiress presumptive to the throne. This being so, her case could not be considered an extension of the principle upon which the present grant was asked for. At all events, he was quite satisfied that this additional burthen ought not to
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be put upon the country in its present distressed state.
Mr. Calcraftobserved, that it had been agreed by every gentleman, who had spoken on the subject, that this was a very painful topic. If, however, it had been so painful to every one who had addressed the committee, it was doubly so to himself, because in that discussion, he must reluctantly differ from those with whom he generally agreed. He should, therefore, proceed to state shortly the grounds upon which he concurred in the motion of the chancellor of the Exchequer. And, in the first place, he must declare that he dissented from his hon. and learned friends upon that point, which was a point of opinion only; namely, that a prince of the blood can change his situation from that of a younger branch of the royal family, to that of heir presumptive to the throne, without being involved in a great additional expenditure. He was clearly of opinion that he could not. Into the details of that increased expenditure, he would not now attempt to enter; but, if he conscientiously thought that such increased expense would be incurred by the illustrious person in question, he should not be an honest man, if he did not vote accordingly. But he did think so, and, therefore, he should, most unquestionably, concur in this vote. He had another reason for doing so. He could not dismiss all consideration of precedent on this occasion. He could not but remember, that when the late duke of York, whose death was so universally deplored, stood in the same situation as the duke of Clarence stood in now, he had an infinitely larger income than his royal highness would possess, even with the addition of the grant now in question. Nor could he forget, that the late princess Charlotte—who did not stand at the time in the same near relation to the Crown, but was merely daughter of the regent, with, undoubtedly, the probability of succession to the Throne in her favour—had an income allotted her of 50,000 l. per annum. Why, then, not only had that which they were now called upon to do, been done in those other cases already; but he must be allowed to remark, that, in the present instance, it ought to be done. Not only were the reprecedents for the proceeding, but he must contend that they would pass a slight upon the duke of Clarence, under present circumstances, if they did not raise his in-

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come to somewhat the same scale which they had observed in their grants to other branches of the royal family, in similar situations. In regard to personal considerations applying to his royal highness, but one tone had pervaded the whole debate. No member had suggested any thing which could detract from the general opinion which had been expressed in his favour; all seemed to be agreed, that, so far as regarded personal character, it was impossible to indicate two more deserving and excellent persons than the duke and duchess of Clarence. One word, before he sat down, the general distress of the country. He acknowledged it—he deplored it—and he did hope that, in the course of the session, they would do all in their power to remedy it. But he differed again from his hon. friends, as to what would be the feeling of the country upon this vote. He was convinced that the mass of the people would acknowledge the justice of this grant, even those among them who were in the most lamentable condition. He was sure that when it came before them as a question, whether it was proper to vote an additional 9,000 l. a year to the heir presumptive, or to adopt the course recommended by his hon. and learned friends, there was not a man among them who would think the hardship of his own situation aggravated by the passing of such a vote, in point of fact, he thought there was not a man in the empire who would not readily concur in this grant; but if, unfortunately, the distresses of the people should so far pervert their understandings, as to make them indisposed to concur in it, he, for his own part, should feel that he could not do less than support the vote proposed by the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. Fergussonsaid, he had not the honour of being known to many members of that House, but he believed, that such hon. gentlemen as did know him, would admit that he was the last person who would be likely to court favour or propitiate power, by giving his acquiescence to any measure that he did not think himself conscientiously bound to support. He felt himself, therefore, bound to declare, that he must vote for the present grant, because he was convinced that the situation of his royal highness was materially changed, and that he could no longer remain in his present state of retirement. The simple question was, whether they
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would leave the immediate heir of the Throne in a situation not even so affluent as some of the nobility, or whether they would enable him to answer the demands which must be made upon him in the condition to which he had been elevated? He was convinced that they ought not to leave his royal highness so; and he was equally convinced, that the vote he was about to give would not prove an unpopular one. It was a public measure, for the support of a public object.
Mr. John Martinsaid, that the two hon. members who had last addressed the House, appeared to be quite certain that instead of this being an unpopular motion, it would meet with the unqualified approbation of the country. Now, if this were really the case, he should propose that his majesty should send another Letter to the bishops, and direct them to endeavour to raise this 9,000 l. by voluntary subscription, in the same manner as the relief for the distressed manufacturers had been procured. For his part he did not sec the popularity or the propriety of the grant, and must, therefore, give it his decided negative.
Mr. George Robinson, although he usually voted with ministers, yet felt himself bound, under the present circumstances of the country, to give his negative to the proposed grant. It was not, in his opinion, one of those exigencies which called upon them to make such a sacrifice; and without entrenching in any manner upon the respect duo to the royal family, he thought the House ought not to impose any additional burthen upon the people.
Mr. Humesaid, that several hon. members had asked why he had not negatived the grant, instead of proposing that the discussion of it should be put off. He had adopted the latter course, because he had hoped that if ministers had time for consideration they would withdraw their proposition, and that to have negatived the grant would have appeared something like a reproach to the Crown. The hon. member was proceeding to make some further observations, when he was interrupted by loud cries of "Question." Upon which the House divided—For Mr. Hume's Amendment 65, Against it 167. Majority for the Grant 102.

List of the Minority.

Abercromby, hon. J

Bernal, R.

Baring, W. B.

Birch, J.

541

Brougham, H.

Marshall, W.

Brougham, J.

Monck, J. B.

Carter, S.

Morpeth, visc.

Clements, Lord

Old, W.

Clive, E. B.

Ponsonby, hon. W. S.

Curwen, J. C.

Poyntz, W. S.

Ducane, P.

Protheroe, Ed.

Duncannon, Visc.

Ramsden, J. C.

Duncombe, T.

Robinson, G.

Dundas, hon. G.

Robarts, A.

Easthope, J.

Rumbold, C.

Fazakerley, N.

Sebright, sir J. S.

Fergusson, sir R.

Sefton, earl of

Fortescue, hon. G.

Sharp, R.

Graham, sir J.

Smith, W.

Harvey, D. W.

Stewart, J. (Beverley)

Howick, visct.

Stuart, Villiers

Hume, J.

Sykes, D.

Hutchinson, C. H.

Thomson, C.

Kennedy, F.

Tufton, hon. H.

King, hon. R.

Waithman, Ald.

Labouchere, H.

Warburton, H.

Lennard, T. B.

Western, C. C.

Lester, B. L.

Wilbraham, C.

Leycester, R.

Wilson, sir R.

Lombe, E.

Winnington, sir T.

Maberly, J.

Wood, J. (Preston)

Macdonald, sir J.

Wood, J. (Grimsby)

Marjoribanks, S.

Wrottesley, sir J.

Martin, J.

TELLER.

Marshall, J.

Althorp, visc.

EXPENDITURE AND INCOME OF THE COUNTRY.
On the order of the day for going into a Committee of Supply on the Ordnance Estimates,
Mr. Maberlyrose to oppose the Speaker's leaving the chair. He was, he said, induced to do so, principally for the same reason that he had slated on a former evening, when the Navy Estimates were brought before the House; namely, an unwillingness to concur in voting any Estimates, until the House should be put in possession of what were the probable resources of the country, from which these Estimates were to be supplied. The receipts and expenditure should be laid before the House, and an opportunity should be afforded of comparing them with the amount of the estimated receipt and expenditure contained in the statements of the chancellor of the Exchequer. If this amount was laid before the House, he apprehended there would be found a great defalcation, from the expectation of reduced expenditure, which the right hon. gentleman had, from time to time, held out to the House and the country. With a view of ascertaining what comparison the real expenditure and income of 1826 bore to the estimated one of the chancellor of the Exchequer, he had moved for an
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account of the nett public income in the year ended the 5th of January, 1827, after abating the expenditure thereout, defrayed by the several revenue departments, and of the actual issues or payments within the same period, exclusive of the sums applicable to the redemption of funded property. From that account, which had been since printed, he observed a very great falling off from the prospect formerly held out to the country by the chancellor of the Exchequer. He regretted to say, that there was so great a defalcation as from 3,000,000 l., to 4,000,000 l. The House would bear in mind, that it was provided that there should be a sinking fund of 5,000,000 l. of unredeemed funded debt, which, together with interest on redeemed debt, the money in the hands of the Bank of England to pay off 5 per cents, gave an amount applied to the redemption of the funded debt, of 5,621,231 l. Now, in the account laid before the House, the following was the amount of the income and exnenditure:—

Nett income paid into the Exchequer

£54,894,989

10

3

Nett expenditure

53,885,541

2

2¾

Surplus of income over expenditure

1,009,448

8

0¼

Now, although this was very much below the standard of comparison which, from the statements of the chancellor of the Exchequer, the House might expect the expenditure to bear to the income; yet, what he was desirous of calling the attention of the House to, was, that in this account the sinking fund was not at all considered. There was, it was true, a balance of 1,009,448 l. of income over expenditure; but, so far was this sum from being a real surplus of income over expenditure, that it must go towards the further sum of 3 or 4,000,000 l. which was requisite to make up the charge of the sinking fund; which, as he had before estimated, was put down in a balance sheet at 5,621,231 l.—The next point that presented itself to his attention, was the contribution towards funding 8,000,000 l. of Exchequer bills, and the money raised in the year, ended Jan. 5, 1827, by the creation of unfunded debt. And this, it should be borne in mind, was created after the House had come to a resolution to diminish the unfunded debt of the country. A wiser measure could not be adopted than to abolish it altogether. He

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would now proceed to compare the statement which the right hon. gentleman made to the House in March, 1826, with the real results of the state of the revenue; and the House will perceive how far that statement was from being realized. He would do so, for the purpose of guarding the House from being misled in future, by any sounding promise which might be held out to them; and to guard, against any lavish expenditure in the Estimates, which they might be now called upon to vote. On the occasion to which he referred, the right hon. gentleman stated in his place in that House, that the whole sum to be received, during the present year, would be 57,043,000 l. If from this sum be deducted the expenditure, amounting to 56,328,421 l. there would remain to be dealt with a clear surplus of 714,579 l. This surplus the right hon. gentleman seemed to think the House would have to dispose of in whatever manner it might please; but, so far from there being such a surplus, notwithstanding the appearance of a surplus of 1,009,448 l., there was, on the face of the accounts themselves, a defalcation of three or four millions. He had already shown, how an erroneous impression might be taken from a statement of the printed account to which he had referred, by the omission in that account altogether of the sinking fund, and by its being transferred to a balance-sheet on the back of the account. He would proceed to remark upon ix further variance in the printed account now laid before the House, and the items of charge as originally estimated in the statement of the chancellor of the Exchequer, In the statement made by the chancellor of the Exchequer, and in the charges in the printed account, a considerable increase was to be found in the latter under the following heads of expense:—

Expenditure from the Chancellor's Statement.

For the Interest and management of the Public Debt.

£27,117,186

The Army

7,747,000

Navy

6,135,000

Expenditure according to the Printed Account.

For the Interest and Management of the Public Debt.

£27,245,750

The Army

8,297,360

Navy

6,540,634

The right hon. gentleman had taken credit
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for miscellaneous receipts, but he had forgotten a payment of 1,500,000 l. which made a further deficiency of 600,000 l. [The chancellor of the Exchequer said "No."] The general result of this was, that there was last year a surplus of 5,500,000 l. and this year it amounted to no more than 1,000,000 l. Therefore he considered, that the deficiency, which the public had to make up, was better than 4,000,000 l. because the sinking fund had to be supplied. The right hon. gentleman might say, that an answer would be given to this objection; but that confirmed him in his opinion, that the estimates ought to be laid before the House before the votes were applied for. A great deal was said about the distress which prevailed, and he felt for the deplorable extent to which that distress had reached; but he felt no less, that, whatever might be the distress, the state of foreign affairs, and the protection of the great interests of the country, were such as to require that the necessary estimates should pass. Disclaiming, therefore, any intention of opposing the motions for such giants, he contended, that it was the duty of members to watch them in every stage, and not to treat them as all questions of finance were generally treated in that House; where, as soon as any gentleman got up to speak on such subjects, four fifths of the members went out. He came down to the House for the purpose of looking cautiously and vigilantly at the financial arrangements, taking into consideration existing circumstances and the state of the finances. At this moment, more than any other, the discharge of this duty was absolutely necessary. Before these votes passed the House, they should have the accounts of the past and of the present year laid before them, as far as that was possible. That was the usage in all other countries. The people ought to have it in their power to judge of the expediency of the expenditure, and of their ability to meet it. The right hon. gentleman ought to inform the House what he meant to do with this annuity or half-pay. In April, 1828, the dead-weight annuity, which had been contracted for with the Bank of England, would be at an end. The House would have to come to a determination as to what they meant to do with this annuity. It would not be creditable to send it forth to the public, and it must either be put in the shape of

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a sinking fund, or be declared a deficiency. If the exchanges should go against England, the Bank must have an act of parliament to suspend their payment, while so large an unfunded debt remained. It was impossible that they could sell this dead weight, and it was frightful to contemplate the consequences which must ensue, if even only one million of it should be offered for sale. It was because he took this view of the subject, and because he thought that members paid too little attention to a subject of deep and universal interest, that he had been induced to come forward. He did not mean to say that there was any great objection to the Ordnance estimates, which were about to come on for discussion, but the Army estimates were to follow, and then would come the Miscellaneous and Colonial estimates, from which perhaps some deductions might be made. He did not wish to quarrel with any of them, and he was sure that no one would think he had done wrong in making this statement in order to obtain information which it was necessary the House should be possessed of to enable it to deal properly with the questions which were to be brought forward.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it was impossible for him to answer all the points upon which the hon. member had touched, because he could not give the House satisfactory information upon them, without stating at full length those particulars which he proposed to submit at no distant period. He had no hesitation in saying, that he was not now in a situation to state, with the requisite accuracy, what he conceived to be the condition of the revenue for the present year. Since he had had the honour of filling the situation in which he was now placed he had endeavoured to bring forward the financial state of the country at as early a period of the session as possible. He hoped shortly to bring it forward; but, at present, he owned he was not in a situation to do so. When he should bring it forward, he hoped to furnish a full and satisfactory explanation upon all the matters referred to by the hon. gentleman. But because he was not at that moment prepared to enter into the extensive subject, was that, he would ask, a fair reason, why a shilling should not be voted for the support of a single sailor, a single soldier, or a single artillery-man? After the House had voted their approbation of the
546
measures which his majesty's government had thought it necessary to take for maintaining the honour and dignity of the country, it certainly did appear extraordinary to require from them a premature exposition of the means by which those measures were to be carried into effect. It ought to be taken for granted that government were prepared to meet the exigency. It was miserable weakness to suppose that this country was not perfectly ready to answer any demand upon her of the nature to which he alluded. Whatever might be the expense of the late armament, the country was perfectly capable of bearing it, without incurring any of that pressure and difficulty which the hon. gentleman seemed to anticipate. Even if it were not so, he was persuaded that there would be a general disposition to make whatever sacrifices might be required on the occasion. Although it was not his intention at present to enter into any minute explanation of the state of our finances, there were some points in the hon. gentleman's statement on which he would make a few remarks. The hon. member had taken a very imperfect view of the subject. Certainly, on the face of the balance-paper, instead of there being a surplus for the year to the amount of four or five millions, which he had flattered himself there would have been, the surplus was little more than one million. There could be no doubt that that was the case; and he very much regretted it. But, when the various circumstances which must influence the amount of the national revenue and expenditure were considered, it could not be supposed that it was possible to realize, in every individual year, the expectations which, at the commencement of that year, might be very justifiably entertained. If, however, the hon. gentleman was warranted in arguing as he had done on the defalcation of the present year, he too, was undoubtedly entitled to ask the House to recollect what had been the state of the balance-sheet in preceding years. In 1823, he had anticipated a surplus of only 5,000,000 l. The result, however, was, that the surplus was no less than 6,700,000 l.; so that in that year the surplus had outgone his anticipation of it by 1,700,000 l. In the next year, 1824, he had stated, that it was reasonable to expect that the surplus would be the same that he had anticipated in the year preceding; but it exceeded that amount by 1,400,000 l,

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In the year 1825, the surplus exceeded his anticipation by 160,000 l. So that, in the three years, the actual surplus of the revenue over the expenditure had exceeded his estimate of it by upwards of 3,000,000 l. The fair thing was, to take a view of all the years together. That, indeed, was the course which he originally asked the House and the country to pursue. In 1824 he had submitted to parliament the policy and expediency of viewing the probable circumstances of the country through a series of years. Looking at the question in that point of view; regarding the series of years during which he had had the honour to hold his present situation; he thought it would not be considered that the anticipations which he had ventured to make with respect to the finances of the country justly deserved to be called excessive. Thus taking all the years, the deficiency of four millions and a half in the present year, on which the hon. member had dwelt, must be reduced by the three millions of surplus in the antecedent years. Let the House read the balance-sheets of all the years, and they would find that, deducting the surplus of three millions in former years from the deficiency of four millions and a half in the present, the actual deficiency in the series of years was only one million and a half instead of four millions and a half.—There was another point to which the hon. member had adverted, on which he wished to say a few words. In these balance-sheets certain sums were introduced which necessarily appeared to belong to the expenditure; but which were only advances made by government in pursuance of acts of parliament, and which advances would, of course, be eventually repaid. If the hon. member for Abingdon would go through the items of this description with all the accuracy which it was well known he possessed; if he examined both sides of the account for the last four years, and compared the sums which had been thus advanced by government with the sums which had been repaid, he would find that, instead of the surplus having been only three millions, it had been considerably more, and that, even taking the last year into the calculation, there had been no deficiency at all. This was a fact, which he should be perfectly ready to prove, whenever the proper opportunity should arrive for that purpose. He would even at the present moment notice a few
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of the items. One was the advance by government of the sum of 240,000 l. for the purchase of the Leith Docks, with the dues arising from them; a great and beneficial national object. The greater part, if not the whole of this sum, would be eventually repaid. Now, that could not, in the strict sense of the word, be called an expense; because the sum which had been advanced bore an interest, and because the principal would revert to the country. The duke of Athol's annuity was the next item of this description which he would notice. It was well known that the family of the duke of Athol had ancient claims on the revenue of the Isle of Man. In the year 1805, an act of parliament passed, by which a pension was granted to the duke of Athol for a surrender of a part of these claims; he retained a portion of the duties paid in the island. Subsequently the duties paid in the island were considerably increased. The duke of Athol, however, was not entitled to any share of the increased rate of duty. But this was felt to be an exceedingly inconvenient state of things. He did not know that it occasioned any inconvenience to his grace, but to the Treasury it was the source of much embarrassment and difficulty; and it was thought desirable to simplify matters, by purchasing from the duke of Athol the right which he claimed to a certain part of the revenue of the island. The duke naturally felt indisposed to part with his right, except upon terms commensurate with its value. An act of parliament was passed, enabling the lords of the Treasury to come to an agreement with his grace. Referees were appointed. The referee on the part of the Crown was a man of the highest character, once a distinguished member of that House, and now holding an important official situation in the other House of parliament; he meant Mr. William Courtenay, whose honourable character and habits of business rendered him an excellent choice on the part of the Treasury. The referees met, and minutely discussed the subject; and, after various elaborate calculations, determined that 150,000 l. was the value of the annuity which the duke of Athol derived from the duties of the Isle of Man. This occurred last year. It was, however, impossible for him to know at the commencement of the session, whether the referees would be able to agree in the course of the year; or, if they did, on what sum they would

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fix. He therefore made no estimate on the subject, because, under such circumstances, any estimate must have been delusive. It thus appeared, that if the referees had not concluded the transaction with more expedition than was anticipated, the balance-sheet of the present year would have been less unfavourable, by the amount of the sum to which he had just adverted. The House, however, would observe, that this purchase was not an item of expenditure bringing no return; but that it was the purchase of an improving annuity. The present times were unprosperous; but, nevertheless, in the present year, this 150,000 l. was bringing in an improving revenue, and was now paying above 5 per cent. He repeated, therefore, that this could not be called an item of expenditure in the ordinary meaning of the expression. Then there was the money advanced in pursuance of act of parliament to the corporation of London, to assist in building London-bridge. That stood on just the same ground. It was impossible for him at the beginning of the year, before the corporation of London knew what would be the expense of the undertaking, and whether it would be necessary for them to enforce the provisions of the act, by calling on the Treasury to advance them a loan on the credit of the Orphans' Fund, to introduce to parliament any estimate on this subject, sin fact, the city of London would never have applied to the Treasury for pecuniary aid for this purpose, had it not been for the peculiar circumstances which last year attended all money transactions, and drove them to the wall, when they endeavoured to obtain the requisite supply elsewhere. For the sum advanced by the Treasury on this account, they had the tangible property of the city of London pledged to them as security; and until the repayment of the principal, interest of between two and three per cent per annum.—This item, therefore, did not belong to what was ordinarily called expenditure. The advances to the commissioners of Exchequer bills, and for the employment of the poor out of the Consolidated Fund in Ireland for public works, came under the same rule. But, with all the labour and ingenuity for which the hon. member for Abingdon was so eminently distinguished, he defied him to anticipate, at the beginning of the year, what the amount of those advances would be. Here was the hardship of his case. The hon. gentleman
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always considered it desirable, that the financial state of the country should be detailed in the beginning of the year, a practice which he must object to. But it was very hard that the hon. gentleman, having called for this financial statement at the beginning of the year, should then (to use a favourite phrase of his) "turn round upon him," and reproach him for not having anticipated that of which it was utterly impossible he could have any knowledge previous to its occurrence. The hon. gentleman complained, that, whereas he had estimated the expense of the army, &c. for the last year, at 7,747,000 l.; it had actually amounted to 8,297,000 l. That was perfectly true; but how did it happen? All that he could possibly do at the commencement of a session was, to state to the House the sum which he thought it would be expedient to vote in the supply. It was, however, utterly impossible that all the money voted in the supply for the year should be drawn in that year; for a great part of that supply was applicable to services in distant parts of the world, and could not be comprehended in any limited period. A great part of the 8,297,000 l. was on account of grants of antecedent years. It also happened, that, in 1826, the services were paid more rapidly than was usual. At the close of the year, a state of political circumstances arose, which rendered it necessary to draw out money for the services of the year more rapidly than ordinary. Had it not been for the armament which had occurred the balance-sheet on the table would have presented a very different appearance. It was also clear that, in exact proportion as the payments in 1826 for the army had been rapid, the grants remaining to be disposed of had decreased. It was the same with the Navy and the Ordnance. As to the Miscellaneous estimates, they were made up partly of the grants of former years, which became payable in the year, and partly of grants within the year. The difference between the estimate and the sums actually paid amounted only to about 100,000 l.: and, although he did not pretend to assume any great credit on that account, he did not think that it was any reproach to his foresight, that he had not been nearer in his anticipation. The hon. member had then fallen upon all his (the chancellor of the Exchequer's) errors, with respect to the estimated receipt of

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the year. It was perfectly true that he had been too sanguine. It would be absurd to deny it. He had expected, that the revenue would be more productive than it had turned out to be. But the hon. member had not quite fairly argued this subject. He certainly had anticipated that, in the year 1826, the Customs and Excise together would yield 36,846,000 l. The actual produce had been 36,450,000 l.; being about400,000£. less than he had anticipated. Now really such a difference on a revenue of nearly thirty-seven millions, between the estimate and the produce, that estimate framed too under circumstances of considerable difficulty, and which baffled all attempts at rigid calculation, was, comparatively speaking, so small, that, upon his word, if he did not know that a prophet had no honour in his own country, he should be tempted to claim credit for his accuracy, instead of admitting the justice of the hon. member's reproach, and allowing that his want of foresight ought to withdraw from him the confidence of the country. On the article of Stamps he certainly had been decidedly wrong. He estimated their produce at 7,400,000 l.; but he got only 6,702,000 l. The fact was, that he had been too sanguine. It was, perhaps, the error of his character. However that might be, he most willingly allowed that he had been widely wrong in this estimate. But he could by no means admit the justice of the hon. member's remark, that with respect to the Miscellaneous estimates he had not dealt quite fairly. Undoubtedly those estimates had not produced the amount which he had supposed they would produce. He had estimated them at 1,350,000 l.; they had produced only between 900,000 l. and 1,000,000 l. One of the items of these Miscellaneous estimates was the return which he expected from Ireland of the old silver coin which had been called in. In the antecedent year the sum of 500,000 l. had been voted for a new silver coinage in Ireland; and he had anticipated, that the return of the old silver coin to the Treasury would amount to 400,000 l.; whereas it had amounted only to 206,365 l. More, however, was receivable, and no doubt would be received in the present year; the delay in its payment having been occasioned by no immediate demand having been made for it. From this source arose a deficiency of nearly 200,000 l.; which was undoubtedly
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his error. He had made another mistake. Before the final termination of the lottery he had been led into the mistake of conceiving, that a certain portion of profit remained to be received by the public from that source. He had not found out his error until it was too late to rectify it; and had, therefore, anticipated a receipt of 180,000 l. which never accrued. These were the circumstances which reduced the produce of the Miscellaneous estimates below his estimate. But then the hon. member for Abingdon said, that he had taken credit for repayments made to the commissioners of Exchequer-bills in England, and of the Consolidated fund in Ireland, to the amount of 273,000 l. Never. He had always excluded items of that description from his statement; it being utterly impossible to anticipate either the issues or the returns. It would indeed be a miserable trick, of which he was sure the hon. gentleman could not suppose that he would be guilty, had he taken credit for repayments without noticing issues; but the fact was, that the hon. gentleman was wrong in imagining that he had adverted to the subject at all, in his anticipation of the receipt and expenditure of the year.—He was not aware that he could at present go more particularly or minutely into these points. It would certainly have been more satisfactory to himself, and, he presumed, to the House, if he had been permitted to delay saying any thing on these subjects, until he could have put the House in possession of all he had to suggest with respect to the finances of the country, instead of being hurried into a premature and partial exposition, hardly intelligible to his own mind, and which, he was therefore persuaded, could not be very intelligible to others. That, however, was not his fault. When a fit opportunity should occur for a full discussion of the subject, he should be ready to prove to the House, and he thought satisfactorily, that although on the face of the balance-paper there appeared to be a surplus of only one million, there was no reason whatever to infer from that circumstance, that we were incapable of making every effort that might be required for the maintenance of our honour, and for the support of the various establishments which were necessary for the good of the country.
Mr. Humeadmitted, that the right hon. gentleman had satisfactorily explained he

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deficiency in the produce of the Miscellaneous estimates, and hoped he would have the power of affording the further explanation of which he had spoken. He feared, however, that, as the only documents on the subject were the accounts of the receipt and expenditure, and as those documents were incapable of alteration, the right hon. gentleman would find his task one of considerable difficulty. To mix up the consideration of the Miscellaneous estimates with the other topics, tended to create confusion. He did not mean to throw any imputation on the right hon. gentleman, but merely to say, that in his estimates of last year he was too sanguine. If, however, the expense of the year was founded on this erroneous estimate, it was too much to say that they were warranted in continuing the expense, after the exaggerated estimate of the income had been discovered. He would confine his remarks to the ordinary revenue and expenditure; to the amount received from taxation; and to the amount paid for the maintenance of our establishments, and for the interest of the debt. If the House would do him the favour to attend to him, he would endeavour to explain the matter. In 1825, the revenue was 52,000,000 l.; in 1826, it was 49,600,000 l.; being a diminution of 2,400,000 l. Out of this revenue the act of parliament required that a nett surplus of 5,000,000 l. should be applied as a sinking fund. Instead, however, of a surplus of 5,000,000 l., the right hon. gentleman himself admitted, that he had only a surplus of 1,000,000 l. It followed, then, that there was a deficiency in the last year of 4,000,000 l. The expenditure of the country had increased as follows:—In 1825, the army, navy, ordnance, &c. had been 17,212,000 l.; in 1826, they ha d been 19,344,000 l.; being an increase of 2,132,000 l. Combining the deficiency of revenue with the increase of expenditure, it was easy to understand why the surplus should not exceed a million. The question for the House to consider was, whether we were in a condition to go on in the same manner next year? The right hon. gentleman said, that we were; he (Mr. Hume) said that we were not. Why? With that surplus million we had pretended to reduce five millions and a half of debt. But how? In the old way. By borrowing four millions and a half, and adding to that sum, the million of surplus, we made it appear
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on paper, that five millions and a half of debt had been redeemed. He must protest against such a delusion. He would show that the surplus million was already absorbed by the expenses which had been incurred; leaving out of the question all considerations of loans or sinking funds. He would take it for granted, that the revenue of the present would not exceed the revenue of the last year. In the first place, there were life annuities to the amount of 580,000 l. a year, which, strange to say, were never brought to the public account, but were always paid out of the sinking fund. Then there was the sum of 200,000 l. increase in the interest of the outstanding debt; occasioned by raising, on the first of January, the rate of interest on Exchequer-bills from three half-pence to two-pence; and lastly, there was nearly the sum of 400,000 l. to supply the deficiency arising from reducing the five per cents. These three sums would make it necessary to pay 1,160,000 l. more in 1827, than in the last year. The consequence was, that, supposing the surplus of 1827 to be equal to that of the last year, there would, nevertheless, be a bonâ fide deficiency of above 140,000 l. We had incurred a debt of 3,000,000 l. in the management of the dead weight of only 13,000,000 l.—So much for attempting to bolster up the sinking fund. We had been proceeding in this unnecessary accumulation of debt from the period of sir Robert Walpole to the present time. If, under the name of a sinking fund, ministers had at their disposal a surplus revenue of 5,000,000 l., they would sooner or later find means of expending that surplus, and applying it to other purposes than the reduction of debt. Ministers had yet to receive the remaining part of this thirteen million of dead weight from the Bank. The last payment would be in April, 1828. Unless government pursued a different course with this fund, they must be adding to the debt, by funding at least five millions a year. If they went on as the act of parliament required, they would incur, by the end of the year, a debt of 3,600,000 l. This would be independent of the amount of the expedition to Portugal. These debts were incurred in what the ministers of the Crown called supporting the honour of the country. Thus they would run on until they got into a state of bankruptcy, which would eventually be the end of

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their "honour." It was impossible for the chancellor of the Exchequer to make one million pay five millions, or to answer the public creditor, if he went on as he had hitherto done. France, Holland, America, and other countries were paying off their debts, or reducing taxation, either by husbanding their resources, or keeping their expenditure within their income. England, on the contrary, if parliament persisted in voting estimates upon the scale of the present year, must add to her already dreadfully heavy load of taxation. He would put it to the House, whether they should not postpone voting such immensely large estimates, until they had a more, complete view of the state of the finances. All he asked was, to let the House vote a sum upon account. If they did not pursue this course, they might find themselves in the situation in which they were four years ago; when, after voting the estimates, the state of the country obliged them to withhold the supplies, and the chancellor of the Exchequer complained, saying, "this is very unfair; you have voted the estimates, and now you refuse to vote me money to pay them." The House of Commons were then obliged to call upon ministers to reduce those very estimates which themselves had previously sanctioned. Let parliament have a full statement of what the chancellor of the Exchequer had determined the expenditure to be. Let the House be supplied with an account of what were the expenses incurred in Portugal, and how they were to be provided for, and then they would know how to proceed. If there should prove any deficiency in the Ways and Means, it would then be in the power of the House to consider whether they could not lessen the expenditure, instead of going on to the end of the year, and finding themselves several millions in debt. The various departments of government had already made up their estimates, and it would not therefore be difficult for the chancellor of the Exchequer to lay a general statement of them before the House. The delay of only another month would afford the House the opportunity of ascertaining the real condition of the country. He would confess that he felt unpleasantly at the manner in which the chancellor of the Exchequer talked of supporting the dignity and honour of the Grown, and at the confidence with which he spoke of the House supporting him in
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his efforts to uphold the situation of the country with reference to foreign nations. What was the proud situation of this country, of which the right hon. gentleman boasted? It was merely the situation of an arbitrator, to settle all affairs except her own. The affairs of Portugal did not require so much of our management. It behoved ministers to look at home rather than go abroad, seeking glory at the cannon's mouth [a laugh]. It was well for persons to look at such matters at a distance, and then fancy that they held a commanding station. But what a picture it was that they had to turn over. He had often heard it remarked, that men did not like to look into their affairs when they were encumbered; and he believed that those gentlemen who boasted of the high and commanding station of the country, were very averse to examine its real condition. He apprehended that they looked upon its internal situation in no very favourable point of view. Instead of vapouring and throwing away money upon other countries, they ought to see if they could keep out of debt; and if they could relieve, not only the poorer classes, but every interest, for all interests were pressing upon the House for relief. He should be happy to vote upon account what would allow the Ordnance department to go on for three months. That period would be amply sufficient for ministers to put the House in a state of information upon the finances of the country, upon the estimated revenue, and the total of the intended expenses. With this view he had prepared a resolution, but whether the House would agree with him or not, he was unable to tell. In France, Holland, and other countries, the ministers of the Crown laid before the House what they intended to call for; and, if this was not approved of by the House, the estimate was sent back to the ministers, who again laid them before the legislature in an amended state. He asked the House of Commons to do no more, and he was convinced he was acting a very reasonable part. He would move, by way of amendment, "That this House does not consider it expedient to vote the Ordnance or any other Estimates until the Ministers of the Crown shall lay before the House an Estimate of the total expected Expenditure of the country for the current year, as well as the Ways and Means by which it is proposed to meet that Expenditure."
Mr. Baringsaid, that if in ordinary times there had been such a defalcation in the revenue as appealed during the present year, he should have undoubtedly been of opinion, that it would be necessary for the House either to agree to the amendment of the hon. member for Aberdeen, or else to go into the committee and vote the estimates with the strictest investigation into them item by item. Judging from the general conduct of the House, he deemed himself justified in saying, that it was too inattentive to the condition of the national finances. No state that had any pretensions to freedom displayed such inattention as we did to the comparative amount of our expenditure and our means. The French minister was obliged to make a minute statement of the resources of his nation before he ventured to detail to the Chambers his plan for raising the supplies of the year; and the minister of the king of the Netherlands had absolutely had his budget thrown back upon his hands, because he had not accompanied it with a sufficient explanation of the national finances. As a general principle, he would say, that it was the duty of the House not to repose a blind confidence in ministers, but to look narrowly into the estimates which they presented to it. He recollected that in 1816, the House, after voting the estimates, found that they were greater than the situation of the country justified. It addressed the Crown in consequence, and said that the estimates were not satisfactory. Amended estimates were accordingly returned to it, in which considerable reductions were made, and those estimates were subsequently approved. Now, if the estimates of the present year had been presented to the House in circumstances similar to those of 1816, he should have said that the House would not perform its duty without adopting a similar course to that which it then pursued. Considering, however, the political demonstration which the government had recently felt itself called upon to make in Portugal, and the support which the House had given to the government on being informed of it, he was afraid that any hesitation in voting the supplies would be productive of bad effect, not only in a financial, but also in a political point of view; and he should therefore prefer going into the estimates at present, to postponing the discussion of them till the period proposed by the hon. member for Aberdeen.
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The unsettled situation of all the leading interests of the country—of the commercial, the manufacturing, and the shipping interests—placed the House in a very awkward situation as to any investigation into the state of the revenue. Notwithstanding the melancholy views which had that evening been taken of the state of the revenue, he thought the return upon the whole to be satisfactory. Considering the extent of distress which had pervaded all classes of society last year, to a degree that was quite unprecedented, it was surprising that upon a revenue of 57,000,000 l. there had only been a defalcation of 1,000,000 l. He confessed he had expected that the defalcation would have been much larger, and he was glad to find that it did not exceed the amount which he had stated. There was no occasion for the right hon. gentleman opposite to justify himself on account of the degree in which the revenue actually collected had fallen short of the sum which he had anticipated that it would produce. The very fact of his estimate having exceeded by so small a sum the amount of revenue actually collected during the distressed condition of the country, was a proof that it would have fallen within the mark had the country been in its ordinary situation. It would be a juggle, an outrage upon common sense, for any man to come down to that House and pretend to predict with the skill of a conjuror, the amount of any future year's income: and it would be unbecoming the high character of the right hon. gentleman to pretend to any such powers of prescience. He must, however, remark, that the estimate of expenditure for the last year, presented by the right hon. gentleman, was not so ably constructed as his estimate of the revenue to meet it. There was a surplus of two or three millions of expenditure over the estimates, which he had not yet seen sufficiently accounted for. The expense of fitting out the armament for Portugal could not have come into the present accounts: if it had, he was glad of it, and surprised to find that it was not larger in amount. He then proceeded to observe, that if the expenses of the different departments so far exceeded the sums at which they were estimated, it was a proof that they were out of the controlling hands of the government; and that the government was, as it had once been described, a government

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of departments all pulling at the Treasury, which exercised no control over them. If this was the case, it would be the bounden duty of the House to interfere, and apply a remedy to the evil, before it obtained greater ascendancy. Honourable gentlemen often said, postpone the Estimates till after the Budget; but it was difficult to make up the Budget at so early a period. He thought the present mode of proceeding the most safe and convenient. Before assigning what was to be spent, it was necessary to know what they had to spend. The government of no country could be strengthened by exhausting its finances, or by stretching its exertions beyond its powers. A country could not be strengthened by an army costing 8,000,000 l., if it could afford only 6,000,000 l. It was in vain for ministers to say, that, this or that island wanted a garrison: the answer was, we cannot afford to support the island. This, however, was not the state of this country, for it was able to keep all its colonies, provided the finances were kept in a proper condition. He differed from much that had been said about the sinking fund. He congratulated the country upon its having such a fund. What would have been the situation of the country, if, upon any falling off in the revenue, or excess of expenses, it had no excess of income, or, in other words, it had no sinking fund? With an income and expenditure of about 50,000,000 l., if there were not a surplus revenue, or sinking fund, of 5,000,000 l., accidental necessities could not be met. A stronger proof could not have occurred, than that afforded in the present year; for, with all the defalcation of income, there was still some excess over expenditure. But for this excess, the debt must have been increased. He should not object to going into the estimates at present, as he did not imagine that any harm could arise from their consenting to do so. He hoped, however, that ministers would conic down as soon as possible with a statement of their financial plans for the year; and he was quite certain that the House would assist them in maintaining those establishments which were necessary to support the honour and dignity of the country.
The amendment was then negatived without a division.

ORDNACE ESTIMATES,
The House
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having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, to which the Ordnance Estimates were referred,
Sir H. Hardingesaid, that in presenting the Ordnance Estimates to the committee, it would not be necessary for him to detain them with many observations, inasmuch as the estimates were considerably lower than they had been last year. The reductions which had been made, had not been made without great difficulty; and it would only be misleading the committee if he were to hold out to it any hope that those reductions would be permanent. The Ordnance Estimates for the present year were only 970,894 l.; last year they were 1,007,671 l.; so that they were 36,777 l. less this year than they were last. In presenting these estimates last year, he bad mentioned to the committee, that the master-general of the Ordnance intended, in the course of the year, to propose an augmentation of seven hundred men to the artillery, by making the companies to consist of eighty instead of seventy men each. The inconvenience, however, which was felt from the want of this additional force of artillery-men, must continue to be felt for some time longer, and the proposed augmentation must be deferred till the next year. In the extra-ordinaries, the estimates amounted to 223,532 l.: last year they amounted to 228,688 l.; so that there was a diminution in that head of expense for the present year of 5,136 l. In the unprovided head of account, which last year amounted to 1,713 l., and this year amounted to 4,652 l., there was an increase of 2,939 l., occasioned by sending out the necessary supply of brass and iron mortars for the preservation of life from shipwreck, according to captain Manby's apparatus, and by replacing certain engineer's stores, arms, and accoutrements, that had been lost by shipwreck in the West Indies. That head of charge had been cut down as low as possible by the committee, and it was the desire of the master-general to keep it in its present state of reduction. As to Ireland, the estimates for this year were 126,382 l.: last year they were 130,549 l.; so that there was a diminution of 4,167 l. in the estimates of this year. The expenditure for Ireland had, for the three or four last years, been nearly the same. There was, however, this year, an additional sum taken on account of the Irish survey, which he would briefly explain to

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the committee. The sum taken last year to promote this object, was 27,690 l.; this year it would be 30,000 l. The additional sum was required by a new company that had been recently added to the two companies of sappers and miners already in that company. The experiment of employing common soldiers upon a survey of this nature had been most successful, and the system of taking men, who a few months ago could scarcely read or write, to employ them in measuring roads, and marking out the line of streams, was working in a manner that was calculated to confer benefit on the public, and credit on the parties who had suggested it. The survey was proceeding with the utmost rapidity. The officer engaged in superintending it hoped that it would be performed within the time specified; and he was happy to say, that when it was completed, it would be a splendid specimen of topographical accuracy. The maps would be published as fast as possible, and would be sold at a price not much exceeding the price of ordinary maps. The charge of barracks for Great Britain was this year 115,249 l.; last year it was 147,087 l.; so that there was a diminution in this charge since the last year of 31,838 l. He would beg the attention of the committee whilst he stated how this diminution had arisen. Last year the House had voted 25,000 l. for the king's-mews barracks. A like sum was to have been asked for this year; but as the adjoining buildings could not be removed in time for the erection of new ones during the ensuing year, the call for this would be deferred till the next. Next year the barrack estimate would be increased in the same proportion as it was now diminished. The charge for barracks in Ireland was this year 117,077 l.; last year it was 124,636 l.; so that there was a diminution in the estimate of the present year of 7,559 l. He could not hold out any hope that there would be any diminution in this part of the estimates, for many of the barracks in Ireland at this moment required to be made wind and water tight. There was a charge of 10,000 l. in the barrack estimate for Ireland this year, for the purpose of erecting a new recruiting dépôt in Dublin. The old dépôt was so inadequate to the purposes for which it was intended, and in such a state of progressive dilapidation, that it was deemed wiser to erect a new building, than to make the exten-
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sive repairs in the old one. As to the estimate for military stores for Great Britain, Ireland, and the colonies, it was 135,205 l. for the present year; last year it was 164,416 l.; so that this year it was 29,211 l. less than it was last." That reduction had arisen in the following way: the House had come to a determination to allow each soldier in barracks an iron bedstead, instead of hutting four of them, as was formerly the case, in one wooden crib. The change had been productive of the most beneficial effects, on both the health and the morals of our soldiery, and had saved a vast consumption of life in those who were stationed in warm latitudes. This year a less sum would be taken for these bedsteads than formerly; and hence the diminution which he had pointed out to the committee. The last part of the estimate to which he wished to call their attention, was the supplementary estimate for the military works in the colonies. The grant proposed this year was 217,000 l., and was greater than it was last year. He had last year explained to the committee, that though this was an additional item in the Ordnance Estimates, it was only a transfer to the Ordnance from the army extraordinaries and the colonial department. Though the master-general was most anxious to diminish the expenditure under this head, there were certain military works which it was requisite, at any expense, to put upon a proper foundation. The heaviest charge was for the new works in the citadel of Quebec: 12,000 l. had been taken for them annually for some years back. This year it was proposed to take 25,000 l., and for this reason: In autumn, before the winter set in, it was necessary to erect a solid work of masonry over the works that were left incomplete, to protect them from the severity of the weather; and in spring it was necessary to displace that solid work of masonry, before the works commenced in the preceding year could be continued. A great loss of time and expense was thus incurred in building up and pulling down that which was ultimately of no use to the works erected. It was therefore determined, that whatever work should hereafter be erected in Canada, should be erected, if possible, in one season, as it was clear that the sooner the work was executed, the less was the expense. It was on that account that he proposed to take 30,000 l. this

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year for this work, instead of 12,000 l., which he had taken in former years. In three years the work, he expected, would be completed. There was, on the whole, a reduction of 104,000 l. on the present estimate, as compared with the estimate of last year; and he hoped the committee would feel gratified with that reduction, especially as there was an increase of numbers in part of the establishment. With regard to the resolution for defraying the salaries of the principal officers of the Ordnance, the amount specified in it was lower than the estimate of last year by 3,176 l. This reduction was occasioned in consequence of the last master-general not drawing any salary from that department since he became commander-in-chief. The gallant officer concluded by moving, "That the sum of 48,476 l. be granted, for defraying the salaries to the lieutenant-general, and the rest of the principal officers and clerks belonging to the office of Ordnance at the Tower and Pall-Mall, for the year 1827."
Mr. Humeobserved, that, looking to the whole of the estimate, there was not such a saving to the country as they had a right to expect. At the conclusion of the former peace, 18,000 l. defrayed the expense of the artillery establishment at the Tower, and the military establishment in Westminster, but they now cost 96,000 l. If these two establishments were united, it would effect a saving of at least 48,000 l. He wished to know whether it was intended to unite them?
Sir H. Hardingeadmitted, that if such a union could be made, a saving would unquestionably be effected by it. But the thing was perfectly impossible; and for this reason—the military stores, arms, &c. were kept at the Tower, and must remain there. The finance committee, it was true, mentioned the dépôt at Woolwich as sufficient; but, he was prepared to contend, that it would be necessary, under all circumstances, to keep a large quantity of stores at the Tower. If they could remove the office of the Clerk of the Ordnance to Pall-Mall, there would also be a saving; but the rooms at Pall-Mall were already filled with clerks; and therefore, if an alteration were made, a new building must be erected. Thus in the very outset, a considerable expense would be incurred.
Mr. Baringalluded to a rumour which he had heard of certain works that were going on in Lower Canada, and also of an
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intention to erect a line of forts on the river St. Lawrence. He wished to know whether these projects were to be carried on without any information being given to the House on the subject?
Sir H. Hardingeanswered, that it was necessary to form a proper dépôt in Lower Canada, where, at present, there was not a place in which they could keep a canister of powder in safety. With respect to the second point, no intention existed to form such a line of defence as the hon. member had alluded to. In the course of the year 182.5, a commission which had been sent to that country recommended that, at certain points, works should be raised; but the defence of so extensive a frontier as had been mentioned was not contemplated. There were, undoubtedly, parts of that territory which required additional defence. With respect to Halifax, for instance, it was recommended, that quarters should be provided for a body of troops, and a proper building erected for the reception of a quantity of stores. These measures appeared to be necessary; because, if an enemy turned the sea-batteries, as the place was at present situated, the town must fall into his power. Besides, as Canada was locked up during a certain period of the year, it was proper that stores should be collected in places of safety. In Upper Canada, it was intended to erect a small work on the same model, of which an estimate would be furnished. It was not intended as a point d'appui, but as a military dépôt, where troops and stores might be established. As to a regular line of defence along the river St. Lawrence, no such thing was intended. Before any part of this recommendation was carried into effect, the total amount of the projected work would be estimated by the master-general, and the House would have an opportunity of at once discussing and deciding the question.
Mr. Humeobserved, that the items on account of Canada amounted to no less a sum than 51,475 l. This was rather strange, after they had been told last night, that Canada was the finest country in the world: that it was rich in every species of produce; and yet, rich as it was, poor England was obliged to find money to support it. The inhabitants, it appeared, could not pay for the defence of their country. We had a losing trade with Canada; and we were likewise at the expense of keeping up forts to protect that

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losing trade. The only chance of deriving benefit from the produce of that country was destroyed by the operation of the Corn-laws.
Sir H. Hardingesaid, that Canada, being an integral part of the British dominions, was as much entitled to protection as any other portion of the empire.
Mr. Humesaid Canada was but a colony, and stood in a very different situation from Ireland or Scotland.
After some further conversation, the several resolutions were agreed to.

GRANT TO THE DUKE AND DUCHESS OF CLARENCE.
On the order of the day for taking his Majesty's Message into consideration,
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he did not feel it necessary to trespass on their lordships with many observations in reference to the Address which he was about to propose; for, after the melancholy event that had recently taken place, and the situation in which the illustrious duke stood in consequence of it, he thought there could be no objection to a reasonable provision being made for him, under such circumstances. He knew that the measure must originate elsewhere; still he wished that their lordships should be informed of the nature of the proposition which was to be brought forward. By the death of the duke of York, a sum of 3,000 l. a-year fell to the duke of Clarence, as well as to the other sons of his late Majesty. To that sum it was now proposed to add 3,000 l., a-year more, and 6,000 l. as a further provision for the duchess, making in all 12,000 l. a-year. He was quite sure that no one would say that this was too much, considering the situation in which the illustrious duke now stood as heir presumptive to the Throne. With respect to the duchess of Clarence, he could say, from the knowledge he had of the conduct of her royal highness, that it was altogether irreproachable and unexceptionable. Those who with himself had similar opportunities of witnessing her demeanor, would fully bear him out in this assertion. The noble earl concluded by moving an Address to his Majesty expressive of their lordships' concurrence in his Majesty's Message.
The motion was agreed to.