Sitting of 12 February 1827

CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION.
Mr. Villiers Stuartsaid:—I rise for the purpose of presenting petitions from sundry bodies of Irish Catholics. The first, on the part of the Catholic bishop and clergy of the diocese of Waterford, and the rest from various parishes in that county, praying to be emancipated from the political disabilities to which they are now subjected. I should not venture to accompany the presentation of these memorials with any remarks at length, if it had not been the wish of many of my constituents, whose names are attached to them, that I should press the consideration of this question upon the House, in as strong a manner as possible. I cannot help feeling that I, who am a very young member of society and of this House, should offer some apology in rising to address it on a subject of such vast importance as that contained in the prayer of the petitions I now hold in my hand; but the very importance of the question, connected as it intimately is with the well-being, bound up as it is with the dearest interests, of those whom I have the honour to represent, will, I trust and believe, be accepted as no trivial excuse for my coming forward on this occasion.— Sir, I have not the presumption to request attention to my own opinions, merely as those of the individual who has the honour to address the House. I am aware, that, if what I say shall be considered to have any claim at all upon its consideration, it must arise from the sanction of those who have deputed me to speak their prayers, and from the circumstance of those prayers being offered up by the petitioners, in common with nearly the entire nation to which they belong; and, Sir, in making this assertion, I would not wish to be understood as putting forward any exaggerated statement of facts. In Water-ford, with which I am more particularly connected, Catholics are to Protestants as twenty-three to one; in the province of Minister, of which that county forms a part, the proportion is still more favourable to them; and in the two provinces of Leinster and Connaught, it is, perhaps, scarcely less so; and these calculations, founded as they are upon a census taken with the closest investigation and most accurate research, bear me out in the assertion, that nothing less than the prayers
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of a nation are offered up in support of those measures which the House is called upon to sanction by its approbation; and if to this numerical preponderance you add the weight and influence of a vast proportion of landed property in the hands of Irish Protestant proprietors, it must, I think, be conceded, that few questions ever came to the consideration of the House, backed by so powerful and mighty an advocacy as does that which now, on the part of the petitioners, claim the decision of the legislature in its behalf. A favourite topic of those opposed to the claims of the Catholics, has hitherto been the apathy with which these have been regarded by all but, as it was stated, a faction belonging to the Roman Catholic persuasion; and the indifference with which, excepting a few among the higher classes, the subject of their disabilities has been treated by the great proportion of those who have laboured under the pressure of them. The day is past, the hour is gone for ever, when such an allegation as this could be resorted to as an argument against concession. Aye, if it were matter of doubt on the minds of any before the dissolution of the late parliament, the event of the general election must have flashed conviction on the minds of all how deeply interested are the feelings of every class of Roman Catholics in the question of their emancipation; and how false, how utterly false, have been the charges of indifference, under which those in the humbler grades of society have laboured. The Catholics have shewn they know their rights, and knowing dare assert them. They have given ample proof, that the love of liberty and those rights is with them superior to the considerations which commonly influence men in their humble walks of life; they, even the lowliest of them, have, for the sake of emancipation from the political disabilities under which they labour, been content to incur the weight of their landlord's heaviest displeasure; they have dared to brook his anger, and the poverty and oppression incident to it: they have confronted, undismayed, disease and famine; but turned indignantly away from the bribe which, perhaps, might have saved them from the ravages of both. Such has been the conduct of, such the noble refutation given by, the peasantry of Ireland—the much calumniated forty-shilling freeholders—to the slanders of their enemies, when an opportunity offered to

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prove the charge of apathy unfounded. What, however, has their bearing been, but a corroboration of the evidence taken before the committee appointed to inquire into Irish affairs? Had we it not on the authority of all those examined on that occasion, that there is but one and the same feeling pervading every class of Roman Catholics, from the highest to the lowest in degree—a sense of injury and dissatisfaction arising from their disabilities? I am willing to allow, that these are not felt as an immediately operating grievance by all equally; yet the consciousness of their existence tends to increase the weight and influence of those who, feeling them more acutely, are inclined to predispose their fellow-subjects to disturbance, or to suspect the administration of justice, on which alone a government can found any claim to respect or obedience on the part of the governed. The Catholics feel themselves a degraded and oppressed class, when compared with others of the king's subjects—that they are looked down upon by those in power; and they withdraw from the government their confidence accordingly. They are willing to see the Protestant church protected and secure in its immunities; but cannot understand how their admission to the political honours and advantages of the State can be considered as incompatible with this object. Their disabilities produce actually a morbid sense of self abasement, a consciousness of degradation and inferiority, which has the worst effect upon the morals of the people. They feel like men who, as it were, have lost their caste; and how can it be otherwise, when they see a privileged order set over them? Take a Catholic, for instance; let his rank, his talents, his property, be what they will, he is perforce to content himself with taking a passive rather than an active part in the legislation of his country. If he be mild and meek of disposition, it is just possible he may continue, without repining, to pass his life in dull contented obscurity; but if he be made, as most men are, of somewhat a more stern and inflammable disposition, can he see himself looked down upon by the more favoured part of the community, with whom he has little or no interest? Should he be in any profession, shall he find a limit set to his honest ambition—the honours not attendant on the toil? Shall he hear his oath proclaimed a lie, and his loyalty and religion slighted.
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and afford matter of wonder to any that he should writhe under the sting of such accumulated indignity and insult? Because we cannot make men Protestants, shall we make them rebels? I appeal, Sir, to human sympathy and human feelings, whether the mind of a man of ordinary sensibility must not become in the highest degree susceptible of insurrectionary contagion; whether the distinction created by law must not uphold and perpetuate the recollection of old times and old wrongs? Owing to the penal code is it that the fanatic murders of a former century loses nothing, in the minds of the Irish, of their original greatness by a long tradition. Owing to the penal code is it that they still cherish a sore remembrance of the obstacles thrown in the way of hearing mass, when they were obliged to resort to bogs, caves and morasses, for the purpose of worshipping the Deity after their own manner; and when their bold avowal of their religious tenets was a crime of greater magnitude, in the eye of the law, than the disguise of prevarication and falsehood under which the priests were obliged to cloak their sacred calling. Refuse, Sir, to the Irish their privileges, and the spirit of the Catholic church will continue to increase, and at length prevail over that of the nation. Grant them to them, and they will thenceforward, I am convinced, become animated by a British rather than a Catholic feeling. The votes of the Irish representatives alone are sufficient to convince them that, but for the Union with England, long ere this they must have been emancipated; and is it wise, is it prudent, I would ask, to give the Irish cause to hate the link which binds them to us? But, unhappily, Ireland has ever been fated to find in England a false and haughty mistress; let the broken Treaty of Limerick, the iron reign of a past, and the wily inducements to which, at the commencement of the present century, the Union owed, and owed alone, its success, attest the fact. It should be borne in mind, however, that both oppression and treachery fail to attain their objects, when the first ceases to hold in subjection, and the last to deceive those on whose account such means have been resorted to. Persecution is known to act in direct opposition to the wishes of the persecutors. Persecution, in queen Mary's time, did more towards establishing, on a firm and. solid basis, the Protes-

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tant religion, than did all the Edicts, promulgated for its support, in the life-time of her father, Henry. Without persecution, the church of Scotland had not gained a victory over that of England; and without persecution, the Catholic church would scarcely, in the mighty flood of its monopoly, have absorbed the affections of the Irish, nearly unrivalled, to itself. It has been observed, and well observed, that the Catholic is, de facto, the substantive, and the Protestant but the adjective, religion of Ireland; and most true it is, that that only can become really efficient as the established religion of a country, which has obtained possession of the hearts and affections of that country's population. Years of blood, discord, and rebellion were the consequences of our attempting to do in Scotland what we are now endeavouring to bring about in Ireland. Scotland had chosen Presbyterian ism as best suited to the feelings, opinions, and prejudices of its population; and we were, accordingly, obliged to yield to that majority's predilections; since when, peace and prosperity have become the characteristics of a country, which, before, was torn by disorder and anarchy; from being one of the most disturbed, it has become one of the most peaceful portions of the British empire. If, then, Sir, a positive good results from allowing to take their course, unmolested, the religious opinions and prejudices of the majorities in two portions of the United Kingdom, I should be glad to learn why the principle is lost sight of in the case of the third? In a word, why that which is deemed sound policy in England and Scotland, is not acted upon in the instance of Ireland? But we are told Catholicism embraces doctrines totally incompatible with the spirit of the British constitution; and this allegation is founded, as I learn, upon the following charges brought against the Roman Catholic church: first, it is matter of accusation against Catholics, that they are guilty of impiety in usurping, through absolution, the power of forgiving sins; secondly, that they promote vice, in granting, by means of indulgencies, an anticipated pardon for sins to come; thirdly, that they do not feel themselves bound by the sacred obligations of an oath, should the pope choose to dispense with the observance of it; fourthly, that they divide their allegiance between a temporal and a
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spiritual sovereign; fifthly, it is said they hold the principle that it is lawful to break faith with heretics. Such are, if I am not mistaken, the ground, at least the ostensible one, on which a party in this country ground their hostility to the claims of the Catholics. Having now put the question into a somewhat tangible form, and classed under five separate heads the principal arguments of its opponents, I will now proceed to examine how these will be found to bear upon the merits of the question at issue, and I am bound in candour to confess, that if these tenets, which have been imputed to the Catholics, were cherished by them as such, no one would feel more anxious than I should to prevent from a participation in the honours and advantages of the State, men who could hold doctrines so contrary to the dictates of Christianity, so totally incompatible with the very existence of civilized society; but how stands the case? These opinions which have been imputed to Catholics, as part and parcel of their creed, turn out to be the mere fabrications of artful and designing men; cobwebs spun for the purpose of enveloping the brains of those who have not force to break through the entanglement of them; the real fact is, these doctrines, at the present day, are as little characteristic of the church of Rome, as of that of England. On what authority do I make this assertion? Not on my own—not on that of two, three, or four obscure individuals; no dubious testimony will it, I trust, be thought I call in support of what I advance, when I summon as witnesses in my behalf, the whole Catholic hierarchy of these kingdoms; and can it be supposed that a body of men, devoted as they are to a high and sacred calling, many of whom are now hovering on the very verge of the grave, most of them having passed long lives in the service of their God, and all of them enjoying reputations untainted by the slightest breath of calumny, towards whoso spiritual guidance are turned with reverence and affection the regards of eight millions of our fellow Christians—can it be supposed, I ask, for an instant, that a body of men so circumstanced, would unite in subscribing their names, attested by that holy and venerated symbol of their religion, the cross, to a falsified statement of their creed—a creed which teaches them not less than our own, that truth is the first attribute of the Deity whom they worship,

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and whose word they are sworn to teach and to obey, in full hope, that none are to be found so besotted by bigotry, so wedded to religious prejudices? I shall, bestow a few moments consideration on the substance of the statements as published by authority of the Catholic prelates, in vindication of their calumniated religion. Firstly, then, as I have stated, they are charged with impiety, in usurping, through absolution, the power of forgiving sins. What is their answer to this? That no actual sin can be for given at the will of any pope, priest, or individual whatsoever, without a sincere sorrow for having offended God, a determination to avoid future errors, and to atone for past transgressions — he who, without these necessary dispositions, receives absolution, only incurs the additional guilt of hypocrisy and profanation. Secondly, it is stated, they promote vice in granting indulgencies as an anticipated pardon for sins to come. Why, they declare an indulgence is no pardon for sin at all; it only remits, on repentance of the sinner, the whole or some part of the temporal punishment with which the church had in the first instance thought fit to visit the offence. With regard to the third charge, that Catholics do not feel themselves bound by the sacred obligations of an oath, should the pope choose to dispense with their observance of it, they state, they cannot sufficiently express their surprise and abhorrence of such an accusation, since they believe no power in any pope, priest, or individual, or body of men whatever, can make it lawful for a Catholic to confirm any falsehood by oath, or absolve himself from any oath by-which he may have either ratified his allegiance to his sovereign, or any obligation of duty or justice to third persons; he who takes an oath, is bound to observe it in the obvious meaning of the words, or in the known meaning of him to whom it is sworn. For the fourth charge, that they divide their allegiance between a temporal and a spiritual sovereign: they feel indignant at the imputation; in the sovereign and the State, they believe and declare, are vested the regulation and direction of temporal affairs; they only bow to the guidance of the pope in spiritual matters, according to the divine command of "render unto Cæsar the things which are Cæsar's, and unto God the things which are God's," Fifthly,
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they disclaim holding the principle, that it is lawful to break faith with heretics; they believe and declare, that every Catholic, as well by the laws of nature as those of revealed religion, is bound to observe the duties of fidelity and justice to all men, without distinction of nation or religion. Having now endeavoured to explain those points of Catholic doctrine, which are most frequently misrepresented or misunderstood, and the substance of the statement by which the Catholic prelates have rebutted and falsified the charges levelled against their religion, I trust I am not too sanguine in believing, that justice will, ere long, be done to the principles of the Catholics—that it will at length be conceded, no opinions flow from them incompatible with their duties as Christians, or as British subjects: and I now beseech the legislature, but more especially his majesty's government, upon the members of which the settlement of this question must mainly depend, to pause ere they withhold their consent to the prayers of these petitioners; I would remind them that we may now chance to be upon the very verge of war; a war, which, if once kindled, would, in the idea of the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs, partake of the most tremendous character of any, perhaps, which ever took place in Europe; for, as the right hon. gentleman had stated, it would, in all likelihood, become a war of conflicting opinion. Where is that country, I should be glad to know, which would suffer more from the operation of such a war than would Great Britain, as regards her Irish interests? I would remind his majesty's government, too, that a system of persecution and oppression has been followed up with regard to Ireland for four centuries past; that the annals of the country may literally be traced in blood, have been marked by a greater degree of atrocity and barbarism than can be discovered in the history of any other country in Europe during the same period; that civilization has crawled a slow and intimidated progress, while poverty and disaffection have strode over the nation's prostrate energies; and I would ask if such are, and history tells us they have been, the deadly effects of a four hundred years' experiment, whether it might not be as well to try if a contrary system would not have a contrary effect. If the mild attentions of a sister for the future

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might effect what the harsh dominion of a mistress has hitherto failed to do, what enables us to rule the seventy or eighty millions of our Indian territories, with comparatively more ease than the seven or eight millions? Why are the Catholics of Canada, divided as they are from us by the broad Atlantic, more amenable to our laws, more contented with the government than the inhabitants of a country whose shores approach within but a few short miles of our own? Why, but because in Asia and America we can condescend and find it for advantage to court and consult the public opinion; because we go to war with it in Ireland, in Ireland it goes to war with our government. Since, then, opposition fails, let us try concession; since persecution begets only disaffection and discontent, let us adopt a milder system: in a word, let us place the Catholics upon the same footing as ourselves; let us allow them to participate with us in the advantages and honours of the state; let us give them an interest in its welfare, and I feel convinced, as I stand here, that they will be found among its subjects some of the most loyal, amongst its defenders some of the most faithful.
Ordered to lie on the table.

DEATH OF THE DUKE OF YORK— ADDRESS OF CONDOLENCE TO HIS MAJESTY.
Mr. Secretary Peelrose, and said:—Sir, in the period which has elapsed between the separation and reassembling of this House, the country has sustained the loss, by death, of the first prince of the blood; a prince whom the probable course of human events would, at some future period, have placed on the throne of these realms. Under such circumstances, at any time, and without reference to personal qualities or extraneous considerations, this House would have been induced, in unison with the general feelings of the country—to have presented an Address to the Throne, expressive of their respectful sympathy with the feelings of his majesty. The House would, under any circumstances, I say, have been induced to adopt that course, from the feelings which must necessarily arise in the bosoms of subjects of an ancient and limited monarchy, from those feelings that spring from the deep-felt conviction, that there is no other form of government better suited to the genius and habits of the people of this country, or better cal-
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culated for the maintenance of their happiness, and the enjoyment of their rights. The House would, I repeat, have been induced to adopt that course from the influence of these feelings alone; but, Sir, I feel that the circumstances under which we are called upon to present an Address of Condolence to the King, in consequence of the death of the Duke of York, are, in some respects, peculiar, and different from the ordinary course of events. This Address, if acquiesced in by the House, will be presented to one who was the companion of the deceased prince's early years—who had studied with him in his youth, and who had been intimately acquainted with him throughout his life; to one who had watched over him in his dying moments, in the utmost affliction, and who felt his loss with the regret of a brother. I am sure no consolation is better calculated to assuage the affliction which that illustrious person must feel, than the demonstration that this House concurs in the universal feeling of respect which is felt throughout the country for the memory of the deceased duke, and in the universal disposition to offer their respectful assurances of regret for his loss. But, mixed with that regret, which, as I said before, under any circumstances, this House would be disposed to evince, is the feeling which arises from the deep respect which, I am warranted in saying, it must feel for the public services of the deceased duke; and also a feeling of a tenderer and more domestic sort, which arises from long experience of the great kindness of his heart, and the benevolence of his disposition—qualities which adorn any station of life, but which shine with peculiar lustre when displayed in such exalted rank. Sir, I do not stand up here for the purpose of pronouncing a set eulogium on the character of the Duke of York. It was well said by an hon. gentleman opposite, upon an occasion not dissimilar to the present, that a laboured panegyric on the great, was better suited to the genius of despotic countries, than to the free institutions of this; and nothing would be less in character with the open manliness and candour of him who is the object of this Address, than that I should ascribe to him qualities which he did not possess, or deny him those faults from which none are free. I shall therefore confine myself to the truth, and I think I do not transgress the truth when I say

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that, in the public capacity of commander-in-chief of the forces, his royal highness, the deceased duke, improved the discipline, and raised the moral character of the profession.—I do not transgress the truth when I say, further, that he possessed a combination of singular advantages and of peculiar personal qualities for properly discharging the functions of that high station, and that he lost no opportunity of availing himself of those advantages. Sir, for a period of six and forty years the Duke of York was a soldier in the British army, and for a period of thirty-two years, with a slight intermission, he held the high situation of commander-in-chief; and I do not believe that any man could do justice to the services which he rendered to the country in that capacity, except the man who knows, by personal experience, or has taken the pains to look at the state of the British army, as to efficiency and discipline, when his royal highness assumed the command of it, and its state at the moment when he relinquished it. I cannot soon forget the last words which I myself heard from his lips,! only nine days before his death, upon f hearing of the landing of part of the British troops at Portugal. With a faint expression of honest triumph, he said he: wished any one to compare the condition of the brigade which landed at Ostend in 1794, with the corps which disembarked; at Lisbon in 1826. These were the last words which I heard from the lips of his ' royal highness. The Duke of York had himself commanded a British army in Holland, before he was raised to the office of commander-in-chief; and when he came to it, he declared that no other officer who might hereafter command on foreign service should be subjected to the same disadvantages that he had laboured under. Sir, no other but a man of professional experience could trace the progressive steps by which this discipline and efficiency had been effected in the British army. To do so it would be necessary to detail the several rules which have been adopted and watched over with great attention, in order to the correction of many abuses, and the supply of many defects in the British army; the many regulations by which the welfare and comfort of the soldier, in the subordinate ranks of the army, were secured, with respect to his religious instruction, his duties on foreign service, the education of his children, and the eco-
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nomy of his regimental intercourse. To give effect to these would require a man of professional knowledge; but I do not think a lengthened allusion to them necessary; I attribute the general effect less to the operation of particular rules than to the influence of the more large and extended system which he adopted towards the troops. It is in the example which the Royal Duke set to the officers in his own person, of gentlemanly and courteous attention to the wants of the meanest soldier—in the stimulus which such an example gave them to do their duty—in the conviction which he made every man feel, that however low his station, justice would be done, and protection afforded him against oppression—in these particulars, I say, and in these effects, are to be found the causes of the army being made that wonderful machine which, by regularity of movement, and submissive' obedience to authority, retains the energy which ever distinguishes the soldier of a free state from the passive machines of a despot. During the thirty years that the Duke of York filled the situation of commander-in-chief—a long period, comprising, I believe, ten thousand days. I do not believe I exaggerate when I say, that there was not one of those ten thousand days which passed by the Royal Duke without devoting some portion of it to the performance of his public duty. Never was there a letter received at the office over which he presided, without being noticed, if it was susceptible of an answer. If it contained a signature, the reply was, without delay, transmitted to the proper address. And it ought to be stated, to the honour of the deceased Duke, that the answer so sent was not a mere dry, official communication, referring the party to some other department, but that, upon every occasion, his royal highness showed an anxious desire to facilitate the despatch of business, although it might not be within his own department. If the letter had no signature, but preferred a complaint, it was not necessarily rejected because it was anonymous, but immediate inquiry was made, to ascertain whether the particular charge was well or ill founded. And, upon every occasion of promotion in the army, I think I can appeal with confidence to the House itself, whether there has not been a universal wish to do justice to the strict impartiality with which his royal highness discharged that most important

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part of his duty; and I address myself more particularly to the hon. gentlemen opposite, and ask whether they had reason to complain, that in any case, a man's political sentiments presented any bar to his receiving the reward of his merit in the army. I am sure they will agree with me, that no objections were made to a man's promotion from anything like personal hostility, and that his royal highness always showed an earnest disposition to forget and overlook all associations, as connected with any claimant for reward, other than his actual merits or demerits. But, Sir, I do not conceive this to have been his royal highness's highest merit. In the administration of his high office, the exalted individual had not merely to guard against the influence of personal prepossession, but to exercise a reasonably jealous apathy with respect to the fame of individuals; for, if he suffered himself to be dazzled too much by the eclat of military glory derived from actual service, he might be tempted to overlook those who, deprived of the opportunities of distinguishing themselves, were panting for such opportunities. Upon all occasions in which the Duke of York had to bestow promotion, he acted with impartial justice—not only to those who had merited distinction by their valour, but to those who had shown a disposition, but had not had the opportunity of distinguishing themselves. As proofs of his strict impartiality, I will recite one or two facts. In the year 1825, when an augmentation of the army took place, no lieutenant, with a solitary exception, was promoted who had not entitled himself by service. From 1810, I can state confidently, that no favour was shown to any individual, with the single exception which I have stated, and that was a case which can reflect no dishonour on the illustrious deceased. One lieutenant, whose standing was only from 1814, had been promoted; but it was under these especial circumstances.—At the battle of Waterloo this officer, though a subaltern, became in command of his regiment, all his senior officers having been killed upon the field. This was the only one promoted, who was not of the required standing; and could it be said that it was a case unworthy of notice? With respect to the ensigns the same impartiality was shown. In 1825, twenty-two captains received majorities without purchase. The grant of a commission without purchase affords a great
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opportunity of showing personal favour; but such favour could not be charged in any one of these instances. Of the twenty-two captains who received majorities without purchase in 1825, the average service was twenty-six years; and of these seventeen were spent in their particular regiments. In 1825, sixteen majors were promoted to the rank of lieutenant-colonels without purchase, whose average service was twenty-eight years, fifteen of which they had spent in their own regiments. In short, Sir, I am justified in saying, that there never was an instance in which any officer has been promoted without purchase over the head of his senior, unless where this latter, by some misconduct, had forfeited all reasonable claim to priority; and, let me add, where the promotion was by purchase, the officers of the same regiment were first invariably consulted. Of the first commissions granted without purchase in 1825, three-fourths were given to the sons and relations of officers in the army and navy—to young men who had no other claim than that which was derived from the services of their parents or relatives.— I have thought it right, Sir, to state these facts, because the simple truth is the highest honour to the memory of the deceased Duke. That his royal highness possessed singular advantages for his high situation is beyond doubt. In the first place, having been in the army forty-six years, of which, for thirty-two years, he was commander-in-chief, he had opportunities of watching over the conduct and progress of a vast portion of the officers. He knew their persons; he was cognizant of their services; and, in very many instances, he was aware, from personal observation even, of the circumstances under which their wounds had been received. And let me remark, that it is matter of no slight consolation to a gallant, but suffering soldier, to know that there is an eye which constantly watches his progress, notes his services, and gives him credit for his merits; for such a conviction must greatly lessen his pain and enhance his exertions. Sir, the service has derived many and most substantial advantages from the noble Duke's administration; but perhaps, of all, that is the most substantial which gives the soldier the conviction, and consequently the confidence, that his merit, if he has any, will not be overlooked. I think, therefore, that the House will be certainly disposed to mix up with its expression of

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Condolence to his Majesty upon this occasion, a repetition of that sense of his royal highness's services which it has made more than once before.—Sir, I do not know that it is necessary for me to offer any additional observation to induce the House to acquiesce in the proposal for this Address. Some persons may think that all reference to the personal qualities of the individual, upon occasions like this, is unnecessary; but no man can, I think, read the history of the monarchy of this and of other countries without acknowledging how far the personal character of the sovereign influences the manners of the age, and how much they strengthen the claims of royalty upon the people. And in that history, it would, I think, be difficult to find an instance in which there has not been exhibited, not only by the Duke of York, but by every member of his illustrious family, the warmest disposition to promote every charitable object, to enter into every benevolent enterprise, and to contribute, not only by their money, but by their personal services, to the completion of these laudable purposes. In truth, Sir, I think we might all of us benefit by the example of active charity which has been set us by that illustrious family. Every one who hears me knows, I have no doubt, after his time and attention have been very fully occupied with business, how painful it sometimes is, on receiving- an application to attend at some meeting for charitable purposes, to make the requisite exertion. But I would ask any man, who ever had occasion to apply, with such an object, to the late Duke of York, whether his application did not meet with a cheerful acquiescence from his royal highness? whether such assistance was not immediately given, with that ready benevolence, which it is impossible to assume, and which could flow only from a generous and charitable disposition, to co-operate in every scheme, having for its object the relief of misery and distress —I shall here, Sir, close the few observations with which I have deemed it necessary to accompany this motion for an Address of Condolence to his Majesty. I trust I have adhered to the intention I expressed, at the outset, of confining myself strictly to the truth in any statements I might make, and of abstaining from all exaggeration, as unsuitable either to the occasion, or to the character of him to whom those statements relate. In like manner, in the wording of the proposition
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with which I shall conclude, I shall studiously abstain from every topic calculated to provoke angry discussion, or to interrupt that unanimity which will, I am certain, ' mark the proceedings of the House on an occasion of this nature. I shall studiously abstain, I say, from every topic that can, by possibility, render any one man reluctant to give his assent to this motion. In the same feelings, Sir, I disdain to take advantage of any particular opinions which this lamented personage may have entertained, by any appeal to the concurring views of those who entertain, on that subject, similar opinions; for I am confident, that every man in this House, be his political opinions what they may, will be anxious to concur in an address, that expresses no other feeling but that of sincere grief, for the loss of an illustrious prince, who administered his high functions with great attention, great justice, great fairness, and great success;—who improved, in a most extraordinary degree, the discipline, and raised the character, of the British army; and whose name will ever be associated with its distinguished reputation and its brilliant achievements. I believe, Sir, that no man, whatever his political sentiments may he, will refuse to participate in the feelings of those who were admitted to a more intimate and friendly acquaintance with the royal Duke; but that, they will concur in sympathising with his majesty for the loss of one, whose last moments were consoled by the reflection, the purest and best of consolations, that, during the course of a long and varied intercourse with society, he had never abandoned a friend, nor resented an injury. I, therefore, propose, Sir, "That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to assure his Majesty, that we fully participate in the deep regret which has been so generally manifested by his Majesty's loyal subjects, on the death of his royal highness the Duke of York:—To convey to his Majesty the expression of our sincere condolence with his Majesty, on the loss of his beloved and lamented brother:— That we take this opportunity of again recording our sense of the eminent services which were rendered by his royal highness the Duke of York, in the capacity of Commander-in-chief of his Majesty's forces:—That we witnessed, with the utmost satisfaction, the continuance, to the last period of the life of his Royal

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Highness, of that unremitting attention to the duties of his high office, and of that strict impartiality and justice in the exercise of all its functions, which have so essentially contributed to perfect the discipline, and exalt the character, of the British army:—That, to the expression of these feelings of grateful acknowledgment of the public services of his Royal Highness, and of sincere sympathy with the present affliction of his Majesty, we add the dutiful assurances of our loyal and affectionate attachment to his Majesty's sacred person."
Mr. Brougham,feeling the deepest sympathy with those who most deplored the decease of his royal highness, the late commander-in-chief, assured the; right hon. gentleman, that the language he had employed on this occasion, made it not only perfectly easy, but extremely grateful for him to concur in the proposed Address. In now rising to express his own entire concurrence in the language of the right hon. Secretary, he should abstain from all comment, further than to add that he considered it to have been no small praise to his royal highness, and one that might with perfect truth be applied to his memory, to have, for so long a period of time, enjoyed the disposal of the immense patronage of the army, without ever allowing political considerations— by which, he would be understood to mean, such as were more commonly termed party considerations—to interfere with the disposal of that patronage. And he would add another just eulogium, that his royal highness had shown himself quite incapable of allowing mere personal feelings—feelings of asperity towards any particular individuals for example—to cast any shade across the path of his public duty; and, surely, the best testimony which the country could have of the sincerity and honesty of those strong-political opinions which his royal highness confessed himself to entertain on certain questions—and, on some subjects, he might be almost tempted to call them prejudices—the best test that his royal highness at least hold them honestly and conscientiously, was this, that he cherished them as much as possible, free from all admixture of asperity towards those whose notions were opposed to his own on such matters.
Sir Robert Wilsonregretted that the right hon. gentleman, in proposing this
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Address, had not stated to the House more particularly the means by which the Duke of York had brought about so salutary a revolution in the army. In 1791, its inefficiency, as to the public interests, was carried to an incredible degree of inattention to the means of enabling men to discharge their duty in the army. Under the Royal Duke's administration great changes were soon effected; but the right hon. gentleman had omitted to state, that the improvement which the Duke of York had effected in the discipline of the army was brought about without any exaggerated severity. When his royal highness came into office, corporal punishment, which had been carried to so great an extent that it had become a matter of opprobrium in the eyes of foreigners, was considerably reduced, and he now called upon the House to complete that which the late commander-in-chief had begun. The kindness, the benevolence, and the impartiality of the Duke of York were well known; and although parties, upon whose cases he judged, might sometimes think his decisions harsh, yet in no case had any one impeached the motives upon which he had come to his determination.
The Address was agreed to nem. con.

NAVY ESTIMATES.
On the order of the day for going into a committee of supply, and for referring the Navy Estimates to the said committee,
Mr. Humesaid, that before the Speaker left the chair, he wished, seeing the right hon. the chancellor of the Exchequer in his place, to ask him whether this was not a proper occasion for the right hon. gentleman to state what was his intention with respect to the expenditure for the year, he thought that, before the House was called upon to vote on this subject, they ought not only to know what was proposed as the amount of expenditure, but also the income of the past year, that they might judge of the scale on which the estimates should be formed, with a view to the means that the revenue of the country possessed of discharging its debts. He wished to know whether the expedition to Portugal had added to the amount of the estimates, and he wished also to impress upon the House the necessity of their considering that, in the present distressed state of the country, no increase should be sanctioned, and that they ought

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not even to be allowed to continue at their present amount. There was no part of the public establishment in which he wished less to see any reduction than in the navy; but he wished also that one general view of the proposed expenditure should be laid upon the table, before the House was called upon to vote at all. He took that opportunity of asking particularly, whether the navy estimates for the present year were to be on exactly the same scale as those for the last, or whether, as he had heard, they were to be increased? If the latter, he wished to know whether the right hon. gentleman could state, if the revenue was adequate to meet the increased expenditure, without resorting to a loan.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that any answer which he could make to the inquiries of the hon. member must of necessity be unsatisfactory, unless it could be accompanied with a full explanation, and a discussion of all the points involved in it. As he was not prepared to enter upon such an explanation and discussion at that moment, he could only pursue the course which he had adopted in antecedent years, and generally approved of by the House, whatever objections might have been made to it by individuals. He must also remark, that he thought, at the present moment, the state of the navy was an object of so great importance, that no obstacle ought to be placed in the way of the vote; and for this reason, even if he were prepared to enter on the discussion which the hon. member seemed to invite, he should decline doing so. At no distant period he should be in a situation to make the fullest statement on this subject, and he trusted the House would not think that it was from any unwillingness on his part to meet the discussion, that he now declined to let it interfere with the present vote, but because he thought that nothing should stop the course of so important a branch of the national strength as the navy.
Colonel Daviessaid, that shortly after the meeting of parliament, he had given notice of a motion to refer all the estimates to a committee above stairs. It might be expected that he should, therefore, object to the present vote; but he begged to state his opinion, that every thing ought to be done to support the government of the country in the manly line of conduct they had adopted, and that he would be
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the last man to do any thing which might diminish the establishment of the navy. With respect to the army and the ordnance, he entertained the same opinion; and he therefore should not make the motion of which he had given notice.
Sir J. Yorkesaid, that the hon. member for Aberdeen might be assured that the Board of Admiralty, as well as the other departments of the state, had fully inquired what were the exigencies of the state and what its expenditure, before they prepared their estimates, and that they had shaped them as low as was consistent with the honour and safety of the country.
Mr. Maberlythought his hon. friend, the member for Aberdeen, had done no more than his duty. He had no doubt that ministers knew what was the state of the revenue; but that was not enough for the House. They had a right to the information which his hon. friend asked for, and ought not to take any thing for granted. Before the House consented to vote away the public money, they should have an account laid on the table of the means from which that money was to be derived.
Mr. Humesaid, he would not now prevent the Speaker's leaving the chair, but should take the earliest opportunity of as certaining the sense of the House on this subject.
Mr. Calcraftthought there was a great deal in the hon. member for Aberdeen's objection, but considering the state of the country, he could not consent that any obstacle should be put in the way of the vote for the navy estimates. He was glad to hear that the establishment was not to be cut down, and that government had paused before they put into execution their intention of reducing it. Even if our foreign relations had been less urgent than they were, he should be against any reduction. Every body knew how much depended on the navy, and that when the country was involved in war, notwithstanding the reliance which we placed on the army, it was the navy that must fight us through. The praises which had been so justly bestowed on the duke of York, reminded him that the system of regularity and fairness of promotion in the army, which had been put in practice by him, was one of the most honourable parts of his character. He wished to recommend to those who had the direction of the navy,

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the adoption of a similar system, which would be satisfactory to the service, and eradicate the notion which prevailed almost universally, that the army was exclusively favoured. He was aware that the commissions not being bought had some influence in producing this notion: but he still thought that means ought to be adopted, by which those who merited preferment would be rescued from the hopeless state in which the present system plunged them.
Sir George Cockburnassured the hon. member, that there was the strongest desire in the admiralty, to do every thing in their power to forward promotion in the navy. Some years ago it had been thought to go on too rapidly; but he was glad to see a more liberal feeling springing up, and was confident that nothing would be wanting on the part of government to give it a beneficial effect.
The House having resolved itself into the committee,
Sir George Clerksaid, that in calling the attention of the House to the navy estimates, he meant to confine himself to the differences between those of the present and of the past year. The difference in the total amount was not more than 10,000 l. The number of seamen was exactly the same, and no reduction could be expected when it was considered, that long ago as great a reduction had been made as was compatible with the public service. The cessation of hostilities in the East Indies, and the more settled state of the governments in South America, would, perhaps, have justified the government in reducing the numbers, but other events which had happened recently rendered the necessity for keeping up the naval force as great as ever. The state of Greece required as great a force in the Levant as before; and, if any objection could be urged against the estimates, as respected this part of the establishment, it would be that the force was too small rather than too large. The wages were precisely the same, but a considerable diminution had taken place in the victualling charges. The Board had been enabled to effect this diminution by sending out provisions, instead of buying thorn through the hands of agents, and thus procured better as well as cheaper provisions. But some increase had been consequently occasioned in the transport service. The diminution of the half-pay charges amounted to 15,000 l.; but that
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for widows' pensions had increased considerably. In the other departments there had been no change. The charge for new works was 36,000 l.; and, respecting this, it was necessary for him to explain, that some of them had not been contemplated when the vote of last year was proposed. The finishing, repairing, and enlarging the Woolwich basin amounted to 15,000 l. A sum of 8,000 l. had been expended in the erection of flour-mills at Deptford. This had been done in consequence of serious complaints having been made against the contractors for the bad quality of the article. The greatest benefit had been experienced by this improved manufactory of flour, for which reasons he trusted that the expense of the mills would not be objected to. The marine infirmary and hospital at Chatham had cost 7,000 l.; and, although this building seemed larger than was necessary, it must be remembered that it enabled the board to do away with the hospital ship, and reduced the medical staff to 4,000 l. The hon. baronet then moved, "That thirty thousand men be employed for the sea service, for thirteen lunar months, from the 1st of January, 1827, including nine thousand Royal Marines."
Mr. Humesaid, that it was high time to confine this vote within due limits. It was given as a reason that no reduction had taken place in the number of men this year, that our expedition to Portugal had interfered to prevent such reduction. But if we were to right the wrongs of other countries at the expense of our own, the number of men which the committee were now called upon to vote, would in a short time be insufficient for the purpose. The House ought to pause a little, and consider whether an expense of six millions per annum was not too much to pay to support Portugal and preserve the faith of treaties. At the same time that he deprecated the system of keeping up expensive war establishments in time of peace, he was ready to avow, that he would rather preserve the whole of our naval force, expensive as it was, than keep up half our present military establishment. If this country had not a redundant military force, ministers would never have ventured on the rash step which they lately thought proper to take. A superabundant army tended to encourage a nation to go to war. Where was the necessity for our keeping up an undiminished navy,

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when it was notorious that if the fleets of all the world were arrayed against us, five hundred sail could not be produced to compete with us? It was worse than folly to keep up heavy war establishments in time of peace; because by so doing we deprived ourselves of the power to prosecute war with effect, when the necessity arose to adopt hostile measures. It was urged, however, that our interference in behalf of Portugal was a necessary step, and therefore he would not oppose the present vote, although as there was no longer a necessity for employing our forces in India and South America, the nation had a right to look for a reduction.
Mr. Maberly,having voted with ministers for sending troops to Portugal, could not with consistency vote against the resolution now proposed. He thought that the present was no time to talk of reductions in the army or navy; and he felt the necessity of upholding those establishments the more, when he reflected on the threats which America had thought proper to promulgate in the late speech of her President. It was right that England should have it in her power to show that she had an efficient army and navy at her disposal, and that neither was in a crippled state. Our internal difficulties had, no doubt, given rise to and encouraged those threats; but he hoped that those difficulties would soon subside; and he felt that the surest mode of allaying them and preventing their recurrence would be, to reduce the heavy taxation under which the country was groaning.
Sir J. Yorkesaid, that the hon. member for Aberdeen and himself were friendly to the same measures, and only differed in their means of adopting them. The hon. member wanted to cut down our naval establishment; but he could not agree with him in thinking that by husbanding our resources now, we could employ them to a better purpose when occasion required. On the contrary, he was firmly of opinion, that our best means of giving any country that might oppose us a black eye, was to show our capability to inflict it. Let the House look at what America was in 1783, and what she is in 1827; and then the question would naturally occur, whether it would be wise or safe to reduce a single frigate—whether it would be politic to cut off a single little finger from the body of the state.
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What would members say if the Secretary for Foreign Affairs had come down to the House and said, "Upon my soul, gentlemen, it is all over with us; we have neither ships nor soldiers to go to war." Instead of which, every measure of the right hon. gentleman had been crowned with success; a result which was mainly to be attributed to the 'means we possessed of assuming a hostile position. He remembered the speech of the hon. gentleman for Aberdeen, when it was proposed to assist Portugal. With part of that speech he could not help agreeing; but when the hon. member spoke about the danger of going to war, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs used an unanswerable argument—"Here's a treaty; is it to be kept or broken?" And what was the result? Had not the right hon. gentleman, in consequence of the step which we adopted with regard to Portugal, the power of saying to the ministers of France—" Well, gentlemen, if you evacuate Spain, I have no hesitation in saying that we will evacuate Portugal." He hoped he should not be considered partial when he said, that one of the right hon. Secretary's best assistants in the cabinet was his right hon. relative the chancellor of the Exchequer, whose loss would be generally felt, should the mot ions of the hon. member for Aberdeen be the means of getting him out of that House. Indeed, it would hardly be credited how much deference was paid to the opinions of the hon. member by his right hon. relative; for if any one were to go to him for the purpose of forwarding a job, the answer which his right hon. relative would make would be, "My good Sir, it is quite out of the question; why, what would Hume and the economists say V As for the Dead Weight, he wished it were got rid of, for the sake of the living; and even if it should be necessary that the 3 per cents should be reduced to 2½, in order to the support of the military establishments of the country, it ought to be done.
Mr. Humesaid, he should be sorry the idea should be entertained that he wished to cripple the resources of the country; at the same time he could not but observe, in reply to the gallant admiral, that the readiness to give a black eye often led to mischief. When a man had a sword at his command, it was natural for him to get into a quarrel; whereas, if he were without the means of doing mischief, it was more than probable that no quarrel

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would ensue. With respect to the American president's message, he saw no likelihood of a quarrel arising in consequence of that document; and he thought that this country would be highly censurable if any misunderstanding with America arose out of the question to which the message referred. The gallant admiral had alluded to his right hon. relative the chancellor of the Exchequer; and he was glad to bear his testimony to the merits of the right hon. gentleman; whose candid and manly conduct on all occasions, had gained him the confidence of the House and of the country.
The resolution was agreed to. On the resolution, "That 955,500 l. be granted for Wages of the said 30,000 men, for thirteen lunar months, at the rate of 2l. 9s. per man per month,"
Mr. Humeexpressed a hope that the impressment of seamen would be discontinued. As soon as it was known that an armament was to be fitted out for Portugal, all the men engaged in the merchant service were filled with alarm in the several ports of England. They concealed themselves, and would on no account appear. At some future day he would bring the subject more fully before the House; and he trusted that, as some improvements had been introduced for the comfort of the seamen, impressment, which made the naval service so unpopular, would be abolished, and some inducement held out to men to enter voluntarily into the service. He also wished to see the ignominious infliction of flogging in the navy done away with.
Sir G. Cockburnsaid, that the subject had engaged the frequent and serious attention of the Admiralty; and, although he might not quite concur in the opinions of the hon. member, he would say, that if impressment could not be altogether abolished, it ought to be avoided and discouraged as far as was consistent with the efficiency of the naval service. He would not now enter into the question, but he would express his dissent from the opinion of the hon. gentleman, that the naval service was unpopular. The contrary was satisfactorily proved on the late occasion of sending troops to Portugal.
Sir J. Yorkethought the gallant officer exercised more anxiety, and was more nervous on the subject, than was altogether necessary. There was no question that required more to be thoroughly probed
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and searched than this. That the king, in a time of emergency, had a right to the services of every subject, was a proposition which he readily admitted; but a practice which tore a man cruelly from his family and his friends, and incarcerated him, as it were, in a prison ship, and obliged him to serve without limitation of time, was a practice that ought not any longer to be continued. If some milder method were adopted—some inducement held out to encourage men to enter into the naval service—with a population of twenty-two millions, it was perfect nonsense to suppose that we might not easily command, in any emergency, one hundred thousand effective seamen.
Sir G. Cockburnsaid, that so far from being unwilling to discuss the subject, he had expressed his readiness to do so whenever the hon. member for Aberdeen thought proper to bring it forward.
Mr. Sykesexpressed a hope that some measure would be adopted that would do away with impressment in the navy. He should be rejoiced to see this foul blot removed from the high character of our naval service. Remedies had been suggested for the admitted evil. In a work written by captain Maryat, an officer of great experience, some valuable remarks were to be met with, which went to show that this great evil might be altogether abolished. He could not conceive a greater hardship than that a man in the merchant-service, on his return to his family, after having been six or seven years at sea, was liable to be seized on his coming into port, almost within the very view and grasp of his family and friends. Whenever the hon. gentleman should bring forward the question, it should have his sincere support.
Sir George Clerkobserved, that in time of peace it was unnecessary to resort to impressment, but when any great national emergency arose, requiring decision and celerity, he knew of no other mode of supplying the wants of the navy; but if the hon. member for Aberdeen was prepared with any measure on the subject, it should meet with every attention from the Board at which he had the honour to sit.
Sir E. Owensaid, he had frequently and anxiously examined this subject; and the more he examined it, the more he was satisfied that impressment at all times, and under all emergencies, could not, with safety to the naval service, be altogether

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abolished; and that the most that could be done was, to ameliorate the circumstances under which impressment took place. Much, he admitted, might be done —much had been done—to soften the severity in some degree inseparable from the practice of impressing seamen. It was a mode of reinforcing the navy that ought only to be had recourse to in seasons of public emergency; but, like corporal punishments, it ought to be rarely resorted to, although it might not be prudent altogether to dispense with it. Corporeal punishments were found necessary to be continued on land, and when the crew of a ship were considered, and the necessity of enforcing regularity and discipline duly weighed, the House would perceive how much more difficult it was to dispense with corporeal punishment in the navy. He denied that the officers of the navy inflicted punishment in the ignominious way attributed to them by the hon. member for Aberdeen. After a limited time of service, it might be well, perhaps, to dismiss old seamen, and to take young men in their stead; as the country had a right to the services of its young men. But the House should beware how the power of impressing seamen was abolished altogether—how they threw away one rope of its salvation before it had another to cling by. It was utterly impossible that the advantages of sailors on board of men of war could be rendered equal to those of sailors employed in the merchant service. With regard to the long term for which they were sometimes kept, it ought to be recollected that the last war was one of a peculiar character. It had lasted for twenty years. It was true that, in several instances, men had been kept longer on foreign service than was desirable; but that was an evil which could scarcely have been avoided. What had occurred in that respect during the late war could not be considered as the general rule; for it was not probable that such circumstances as those by which the late war was attended would recur. As to giving permission to the men to go ashore, it was well known that such permission was destructive to those by whom it was obtained; that when leave was given to our sailors in the West Indies to go ashore, they were in the habit of drinking to excess, and sleeping in the sun, and that on their return aboard, they fell ill, and half of them were sometimes lost. As to the question of punishment,
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he regretted that when any attack was made on the character of the officers of the navy for excessive severity, instead of a sweeping accusation grounded on private, and in many cases unfounded, information, specific instances were not adduced, which it might be practicable to meet and rebut.
Mr. Humesaid, that on former occasions when the question of excessive punishment in the navy had been under discussion, he had particularized cases of its occurrence. There was one case of a vessel having a complement of a hundred and twelve men, out of whom eighty-six had been flogged in the course of a twelve month. Would the gallant officer deny that such abuses had existed? They might be diminished; bat it was most desirable to prevent the possibility of their occurrence. On the occasion to which he alluded, he had not confined himself to one or two cases, but had adverted to a number, proceeding, not on vague, or private information, as the gallant officer supposed, but on the sentences of courts martial. It was not his habit to make any statement in parliament which was not founded on substantial evidence. In some instances he had withheld the names of the officers from considerations of delicacy. One officer, in particular, who had become sensible of his error, had been re-employed; and it would have been cruel to name him.
The resolution was agreed, to. On the resolution, "That 624,000 l. be granted for Victuals for the said 30,000 men, for thirteen lunar months, at the rate of 1l. 12 s. per man per month,"
Mr. Hume,adverting to the item for erecting a corn-mill for the victualling department at Deptford, said, he should be glad to know for what reason government, instead of obtaining flour for the navy at that cheaper rate which competition would naturally occasion, had determined to prepare it themselves, at what must be a considerably increased expense?
Sir G. Clerkobserved, that if the article manufactured proved to be of a better quality than that which could be obtained by contract, a slight difference in the price ought to be no object; but the fact was, that at the mills at Portsmouth and Plymouth, the flour was produced cheaper and better than it could be obtained by contract. The adulteration of flour intended for the use of the navy had been carried to so great an extent, that it

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became necessary that government should take the grinding of it into their own hands. In the last year, not less than 6,000 bags of flour were found to be adulterated, either by a mixture of foreign ingredients, or by using wheat of an inferior quality; and as it was impossible that the examining officers could inspect every sack, it was fair to suppose that many others had escaped detection. The government, to prevent such fraud in future, had determined to grind their own corn, and, in addition to the mills at Portsmouth and Plymouth, they were to have an extensive one at Deptford, which would thus afford the means of grinding all the flour and biscuit meal required for the navy.
Mr. Humewished to know whether the fraudulent factors alluded to had been prosecuted. Had the payment of the penalties been enforced?
Sir G. Clerkreplied, that the punishment was the non-fulfilment of the contract. All the flour discovered to be adulterated had been thrown on the hands of the contractors. About six thousand sacks had been so detected, and so returned. But it was hardly possible, with the utmost vigilance, to discover every deteriorated sack; and it was probable, therefore, that a great portion of adulterated or inferior flour had been introduced into the consumption of the navy.
Mr. Humecould not help thinking that if the Navy Board had given publicity to the frauds, and enforced the penalties, they would have been enabled to obtain good flour in other quarters.
The resolution was agreed to. On the resolution, "That 560,000 l. be granted to defray the Wages of the Artificers and Labourers employed in his Majesty's yards at home, for the year 1827,"
Mr. Humesaid, he thought that this and the next item, which was chiefly for timber, and which, added to the present, amounted to 1,500,000 l., might be considerably reduced, without injury to the public service. He did not see why we should continue to build very large vessels at an enormous expense. We had now five hundred and nine vessels of all descriptions, three hundred and seventy five of which were what were called sixth rates; and the ships laid up in ordinary were, he understood, never in better condition. If we should be engaged in another war, it, was clear that the nature of it would be a good deal changed, and that many of our
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large ships would not be of so much use as they had formerly been. We ought, therefore, not to put the country to the expense of building large vessels, when smaller ones might be more required. The Americans were much engaged in building ships of the latter description.
Sir G. Clerksaid, that government were by no means inattentive to the progress which other nations were making in the construction of particular kinds of vessels. When they saw any such vessels built, care was taken that we should have similar vessels to meet them in case of necessity.
Sir J. Yorkedid not think it necessary that we should continue to build very large vessels, or that we ought, in that respect, to imitate the Americans, who were constructing vessels of such a size that it would require a crew of Patagonian chaps of some eight feet and a half high to navigate them. It had often fallen to his lot to differ from his gallant friend, but he did so most widely on the subject of the experiment made of cutting down a seventy-four, and making it a kind of vessel which he hardly knew how to describe. The upper deck was cut down. The officers were obliged to go down a deck lower, and the men still lower; and in this state, without her proper complement of men, she was sent on a broiling hot station, where the thermometer was generally at ninety-six. This change was made at an enormous expense, all of which came out of the 1,500,000 l. He also wished to be informed on what principle it was, that such a change was made in several of our cutter-brigs, which were transformed from exceedingly good vessels with two masts, into the worst possible kind of vessels with three masts. He could not see the reason of this alteration, which was about as expensive in its nature, as if the hon. Secretary to the Admiralty, who had great taste in building, should attempt to remove the walls of the Union clubhouse, in order to stick them up in some other position.
Sir G. Cockburnsaid, that the subject on which the gallant admiral seemed so much at a loss for information was very easily explained. It was necessary to have a proper class of frigates to meet those of other nations. It was well known, that one of our frigates was captured in the late war by a frigate of the enemy; but it was not then generally known, that

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the vessel by which ours was taken was so much superior in size and force. The thing was looked upon as the capture of one frigate by another, and a general damp was cast on the public feeling for the time. To prevent a recurrence of any such event, it was determined to have a class of frigates which should be a match for those of any other nation. If the means taken for that purpose were not approved by the House, he would bow to their decision; but he could not assent to the opinion pronounced by his gallant friend, who scattered his attacks to the right and left, without any reflection or knowledge of the subject on which he spoke. The ship of which the gallant officer had given such a description was what it pretended to be, a frigate, and one of the finest in the world. She was one of the smallest class of seventy-four's cut down. A trial had been made of her, and though a short one, it proved that the experiment was completely successful. The seventy-four thus cut down was almost nothing as a seventy-four, and it would have taken an immense expense to put her into proper repair; but the cost of cutting her down to her present size was comparatively trifling. The vessels from which she was selected were not considered worth the expense of repairing, and were called the "forty thieves." The experiment of making first-rate frigates out of such vessels was worth the trial, and had hitherto succeeded. He did not say that such success would be certain in other cases, but he had every reason to believe it would. The admiral who sailed in the vessel on trial, had pronounced her the finest and strongest frigate in the world. As to the cutter-brigs, the gallant admiral opposite had shown himself as little informed as on the subject of the frigate. The fact was, that those cutter-brigs, from the great size of their mainsail, occasioned an immense straining on the timbers abaft the main mast; so that after a voyage, many of those timbers were found to be broken. Besides this, when any of them got into action with a sloop of war, they were, if any damage was done to the mainmast, almost immediately taken. In order to remedy this inconvenience, it was found necessary to alter them, so as to give them three masts. The Admiralty had instituted experiments to learn whether the cutter-brigs or the sloops were the swifter sailing vessels. They pitted each.
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of the brigs into which they had put three masts with one of the brigs in its usual state, and they found that, upon all occasions, the vessel with three masts beat the brig with two. He contended that, instead of spoiling these vessels, they had been made not only better sailers, but much better in action
The resolution was agreed to. On the resolution, "That 881,000 l. be granted for Half Pay to Naval Officers, for the year 1827,"
Mr. Humesaid, that with all deference to the hon. member for Wareham, who had told the House, that promotion went on too slowly on the navy, he thought there was too much promotion in our naval service; that it went on much too rapidly; and that it was getting beyond the means of the country to support. The dead weight, instead of decreasing, as it annually ought to do, was increasing under the present system, and seemed likely to continue for ever. He contended that the House ought either to prevent promotion from being granted to more than a certain number of officers, or determine not to give it except to those who had been twelve or fifteen years in the service. Such a change would prevent young men of title and family from being promoted over the head of their seniors, without seeing any thing of actual service.
Sir G. Cockburncontended that, from the opinion of the hon. member for Wareham, who thought that promotion went on too slowly, and from that of the hon. member for Aberdeen, who thought it went on too quickly in the navy, it was only fair to presume, that the Admiralty, in steering a steady middle course between the two, was acting with wisdom and moderation. He owned, however, that the Admiralty were more inclined to adopt the view of the hon. member for Wareham, than that of the hon. member for Aberdeen. The captains now at the head of the list had been twenty-six or twenty-seven years in the service; and, supposing they were thirty years old when they attained the rank of captain, they must now be nearly sixty years old. Now, without wishing to detract from their just claims, he thought it only right to keep feeding the service with young officers. In the promotions of the last year, thirty officers had been made captains, who passed their examinations as lieutenants twelve years since. He thought that the House would not

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grudge them that promotion. He also defended the expediency of holding out the chance of speedy promotion to the sons of noble and wealthy families as an inducement to them to enter into the navy.
Sir John Wrottesleythought, that the system of promotion, which was conducted in the navy upon principles unknown in every other department of the state, was liable to great objection. In the army, no new commission could issue until a vacancy occurred. So in the civil departments of the country, no clerk could be promoted until there was a higher situation vacant in his office. But, in the navy, promotions could be made to any extent, as, in point of fact, though not exactly in point of form, a man might be made captain without having any ship to command. Indeed, a lord of the Admiralty had no limitation, except his conscience, to his power of taxing the country, by promoting inferior officers.
Mr. Humesaid, as promotion was asserted to be necessary to keep the navy in order, he supposed it would be equally necessary for the marine service; and yet, in one year, he saw two hundred and ninety-four promotions in the navy, and only thirteen in the marines. From 1810 to 1826 there had been only seventy-six promotions in the whole marine service.
The resolution was agreed to.

DEATH OF THE DUKE OF YORK— ADDRESS OF CONDOLENCE TO HIS MAJESTY.
The Earl of Liverpoolrose to move an Address of Condolence to his Majesty on the Death of his royal highness the Duke of York. He was sensible that the general feeling of regret was so much in accordance with his own, that it might be thought even intrusive in him to say any thing in proposing the motion which he intended to submit to the House. But he confessed that he felt it as a melancholy duty—a duty imposed upon him by recollections both pleasing and painful— that in proposing the address which he should submit to the House, he should make a few observations, in which he meant humbly to bear testimony to the merits of that illustrious individual now no more, who had been the first subject of this realm, and who stood in the situation of heir presumptive to the British Throne. They had likewise many and strong inducements to approach the throne on this occasion with their sentiments, and to state to his majesty their feelings of regret. No man, at all acquainted with his majesty, could doubt the feelings of affection which he entertained to every part of his family. But with respect to his late royal highness the Duke of York, there was this
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particular distinction, that he was brought up and educated together with his majesty. It might, perhaps, have been said, that differences of opinion sometimes existed between them, but in a country constituted as this was, how could differences of opinion be avoided? There had always, however, existed between them the strongest brotherly affection. With respect to their lordships and the public, they had however to contemplate the illustrious deceased, not only in the relation which he bore to the royal family, but in the relation in which he stood, as having; for a period of more than thirty years filled the high and important situation of commander-in-chief. He certainly, for one, remembered the appointment of his royal highness. He was so circumstanced as to know something of the army at that time; he was enabled to watch the progress of all the acts of that illustrious individual; and it was impossible for any person who had so observed him to withhold from him the highest praise. With respect to the command of the army, it had been made a question with some whether a person so near the throne ought to hold such an office; that was to say, whether such an arrangement was for the public interest. He was of opinion, that if this question was looked at as an abstract proposition, it would be impossible to come to any general conclusion upon it. But, leaving that question undecided, he had no hesitation in admitting, that inefficiency on the appointment to office of princes of the blood, would be far worse than any inefficiency which might occur in the hands of other persons. But he could himself say from experience, and all who knew any thing of the British army, and he believed the greater part of the public, would also say, that the interests of the army had derived most essential benefit from the administration of the illustrious individual, who, he was sure their lordships would concur with him in saying, had, in his situation, done much good, had done all the good in his power, and had in many instances done much good, which none but himself could have done. If their lordships would look at the state of the army at any period before the late illustrious person was appointed Commander-in-chief,—if they wished to compare its efficiency, they must look at what the army was before and after the royal duke was appointed to that high situation.

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It was above all to be recollected, that it I was that army which had been gradually formed under his administration which turned the fate of a war, in the result of which the best interests of this country and of all Europe were involved—which turned the fate of the great war in the Peninsula, and enabled his noble friend near him (the duke of Wellington) to prosecute that war to a successful termination, to penetrate into the interior of France, and to bring the contest to a final conclusion by the victory at Waterloo. If their lordships, after recollecting the efficiency of the army, looked to the comforts of the soldier, he was confident that every man who heard him would concur with him in the conviction, that in the administration of any service, never was more attention paid to the comforts of those individuals whose lives were devoted to the service of the country, than had been paid by the late illustrious commander-in-chief. In the next place, if their lordships looked at the patronage of the army, and to the distribution of that patronage, it would be allowed to be a difficult matter to avoid giving offence, where there were so many claimants, and so few but what would be disappointed; yet he must say, that he never heard less complaint of grievances, injustice, and unfair partiality, than during the administration of his royal highness; and in every part of the exercise of that power—a great power he admitted it to be—which he had had to exercise for more than thirty years, he could fairly say, that no power was ever more moderately, more justly, or more beneficially executed for the interests of the country. He might appeal to most of their lordships, to all those individuals who ever had occasion to come in contact with his royal highness on matters of business connected with his official situation, if ever they found any public man more easy of access, more fair and upright in his dealings, more affable, more simple, he might say, in his manners. Having said thus much with respect to the character of the illustrious individual whose loss they had to regret, he should feel it unbecoming in him to trespass on their lordships by more particular details. It was, however, impossible for him to refrain from observing, that his late royal highness possessed all the peculiar characteristics of an English gentleman. Whatever failings he might have, there appeared in all his actions an openness, a sincerity,
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and a kindness so striking, that it was impossible for any persons to have lived near him, or to have had any intercourse with him, and to have failed to have their minds impressed with the possession of those qualities by the illustrious Duke. It had been said of him—truly said of him—that "he never broke a promise, and never deserted a friend." He must still further say, what he felt to be of importance, because it added strongly to the value of the illustrious Duke's character in his mind, that though he was in a public situation which brought him in contact with a great variety of persons, yet to all who came to him he was easy of access, and though in the discharge of his official duties he was more exposed to intercourse than had usually fallen to the lot of persons of his rank, yet he never lost sight of what was becoming on his part, and never acted so as to make any one forget what was due to his character and station. All who approached his royal highness felt what was due to his illustrious character. Under these circumstances, he proposed to their lordships to move,
"That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to assure his Majesty that we fully participate in the deep regret which has been so generally manifested by his Majesty's loyal subjects on the Death of his royal highness the Duke of York:— To convey the expression of our sincere condolence with his Majesty on the loss of his beloved and lamented Brother:— That we take this opportunity of again recording our sense of the eminent services which were rendered by his royal highness the Duke of York, in the capacity of commander - in - chief of his Majesty's Forces;—That we witnessed, with the utmost satisfaction, the continuance, to the; last period of the life of his royal highness, of that unremitting attention to the duties of his high office, and of that strict impartiality and justice in the exercise of all its functions, which have so essentially contributed to perfect the discipline, and exalt the character, of the British army:— That to the expressions of those feelings of grateful acknowledgment of the public services of his Royal Highness, and of sincere sympathy with the present 'affliction of his Majesty, we add the dutiful assurances of our loyal and affectionate attachment to his Majesty's sacred person."
The Address was agreed to nem. diss,