Sitting of 16 March 1826

EAST INDIA COMPANY.—APPOINTMENT OF WRITERS.
Mr. Wynnrose to bring forward his motion, respecting the appointment of writers in the service of the East India Company. By the act 53 Geo. 3rd, c. 155, no person could be appointed a writer, who had not passed four terms at the East India college. Since the establishment of that college, from the extension of the company's territories, the necessity of appointing an additional number of Zillah officer's in Bengal, and other causes, there had been a deficiency of qualified persons. It was found also,

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that there was a disposition on the part of qualified persons to conceal their qualifications, in order to prevent their being sent a hundred miles into the interior. Hence there was an arrear of not less than 75 writers, and it was calculated that 50 would be required this season. The present establishment of the college did not admit of supplying this number. His object, therefore, was, to suspend the operation of the clause in the statute referred to, in order that persons might be selected who had not passed their four terms, but who were duly qualified. This measure was not intended to imply a distrust of the system pursued at the college. He believed that system had fully answered its purpose. If the question related to the new constitution of the college, he should decidedly prefer its being assimilated to our existing universities; as he conceived it was much less advantageous to persons to be educated in classes, than to be mixed together. At the same time, he considered it highly creditable to the establishment that in the short space of two years the students acquired so much. The other point embraced by the bill he was about to move for, respected the payment of allowances, on account of officers dying when absent from India. The act of 53 Geo. 3rd. provided that certain allowances should be paid to officers, while absent from India, on account of ill health, for a period not exceeding three years; but beyond that time no allowance was granted. This was a considerable hardship on those officers whose state of health rendered it impossible for them to return to India within the prescribed period. They ought to be allowed to draw some allowance, if necessary for their support, beyond that specified period: otherwise, the chance was, that they would get into difficulties, and the time given them for the recovery of their health would be absolutely lost. By going back to India within three years, those individuals would be entitled to claim a certain allowance, under the act of parliament. Many officers had done so, in consequence of the state of the law, before their health was completely established, and the consequence was, that they had fallen victims to disease. The object of the bill, in this respect, would be to give to officers going to the Cape of Good Hope or to Ceylon on account of ill health, the same allowances as if they were in India, and also to provide for the
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payment of allowances on account of officers dying while absent from India on account of ill health. The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving, "That leave be given to bring in a bill to suspend such part of the act of the 53 of Geo. 3rd. c. 155, as relates to the appointment of Writers, and to remove doubts as to the payment of allowances of officers dying while absent from India."
Mr. Humesaid, that what had been stated by the right hon. gentleman cast, in his opinion, a strong reflection on the East-India company's institution at Hailey-bury. He thought that the whole of the system on which that institution was founded was exceedingly injurious. The young men were shut out from all society, and had no opportunity of acquiring the least knowledge of the world. Such a system was calculated to destroy the native character of Englishmen. The speech which lord Grenville delivered in another place, against the formation of this college, did him the greatest honour. The arguments adduced by that noble lord were conclusive against the system; and experience had amply proved, that the noble lord's view of the subject was correct. He clearly showed what would be the result of such a system. Year after year disturbances had taken place in that college, and the young men acquired any thing but that high tone of honour, principle, and public spirit, which they ought to imbibe, to fit them for the high situations which they were destined to fill. He had often deplored the situation in which India was placed, in consequence of the formation of such an establishment. Young men were sent out to act in the most important capacities, without any general knowledge of the world. Individuals were cooped up in that secluded monastery, as he might call it, where they could acquire no knowledge of active life. Young men of twenty-two years of age, were raised to the rank of judges in the Zilla courts; many of which had jurisdiction over a space larger than Yorkshire. For five successive years, attempts had been made, in the court of proprietors, to alter the system which prevailed as to the education of writers; but every attempt had failed. He was glad therefore that government had at last taken up the subject. He hoped, however, that the right hon. gentleman would select some proper mode of examination for persons going out to India. He wished persons

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educated in the college, as well as those educated out of it, to be subjected to the same test. He was surprised that some measure of this nature had not been before resorted to. But, the fact was, that the court of directors had no will of their own. They were obliged to obey the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Wynn), or any other right hon. gentleman who might fill his situation. Every public servant sent out to India ought to be qualified to perform the duties attached to his situation. The business of the college was better conducted now than formerly; still, he must express his decided conviction, that it never would answer the purpose for which it was originally intended. It was only so much brick and mortar, and the expense incurred by keeping the establishment up ought to be done away.
Captain Bradshaw, adverting to the practice in India relative to Cadets, said that it was usual to make regular reports of their advancement in a knowledge of the language; and adverted particularly to the case of one individual, who was so inattentive to the study of the Hindostanee, that he (captain B.) was directed to inform him, in the presence of the other young men, that the commander-in-chief would not appoint him, if he did not make himself master of the language. The consequence was, that the next day he sent for a Moonshee, began to study, and in a short time was as perfect in the language as any of his fellow cadets.
Sir T. Baringsaid, that a cadet could obtain a more perfect knowledge of the native language by a six months' residence in India, than he could by two years' study in this country. He thought upon the whole, that if individuals were allowed to receive their education at such places as their parents or friends thought best, the company would have the best guarantee that their servants would be educated and effective men. He hoped, therefore, that the right hon. gentleman would make his alteration permanent.
Mr. C. Granttrusted that his right hon. friend would only make this a temporary measure. The whole of the complaints-made against Haileybury College tested on vague report. That institution had been opposed by those who obstinately adhered to the former system, merely on account of its having long prevailed, and who were adverse to any im-
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provement, which they regarded as a dangerous innovation; and likewise by a certain class of the company's servants in India, who conceived that it would militate to their prejudice. It had also opponents in the court of directors, and of proprietors. Much had been asserted about the irregularities which had occurred in that establishment. On this point he would only say, that those irregularities were not greater in number or degree than were to be met with in other seminaries of the same magnitude. He would not enter into the number of minor complaints which had been alleged against this establishment; but he would contend, that since it was founded there had been a marked improvement in the conduct and character of the company's servants in India. Instead of dealing in vague assertion, he would quote the sentiments which men of very great talent had expressed as to the usefulness of this institution. In 1810, lord Minto spoke highly of its usefulness; a few years after, colonel Roebuck gave testimony of a similar character; the marquis of Hastings had expressed his approbation of the College in the most unqualified terms. And this night, his right hon. friend had stated, that every communication which he received from India more strongly convinced him of its usefulness. Some gentlemen were of opinion, that it would be sufficient for every purpose, if individuals going out to India were obliged to submit to some common test. There appeared, at first sight, something very plausible in this; but this test could apply to nothing but literature. It could have no reference to scholastic discipline, to moral character, or to propriety of conduct. Besides, gentlemen must feel how easy it was to procure a certificate of proficiency, under such a test as had been alluded to. Therefore, leaving out of the question the habits of moral discipline which the present system produced, even in a literary point of view, the mode of education, which was advocated by the opponents of Haileybury College, would be extremely defective. When individuals spoke of the proficiency which a young man ought to obtain before he proceeded to India, he took it that they adverted to the lowest degree of proficiency—to that which might be fixed as a minimum. Now, it was quite evident to him, that that minimum would be both the minimum and the maximum. There would be no. inducement to make a young man ac-

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quire any knowledge beyond that which was necessary to carry him through his examination. Where there was competition, as was the case at present, the result was very different. Now, he begged to ask, what was to be done with the patronage of the East India company, if the existing system were abandoned? Was it meant to throw open the writer-ships to all the young men of the country? Were they to be made the reward of successful competition? If so, the question must be argued on other grounds. At present, those appointments were made by the directors of the East India company, and were granted at their will. Every appointment was viewed, not as a matter that was to be contended for, but as a vested interest which some individual had already obtained through his connexion. So far from its being looked upon as a thing that might be contended for, many cases could be adduced, where, even when some delinquency was proved, it had been considered a great hardship to deprive the student of that which had been promised to him. This was a very nice point to deal with. The present system, he conceived, was well calculated for sending out efficient servants to India; but, if a better could be devised, be the expense of time or money what it might, he certainly would support it.
Dr. Phillimorebelieved that Haileybury college had fully completed its functions by furnishing India with a supply of well-educated young men for the civil and military services. At the time of establishing the college, there was a great deficiency of the proper means of education. Never did any functionaries acquire more honour and credit than the young men sent out from the college.
Mr. Trantsaid, he did not think so highly of the education in this college. His experience of the effects of it in India led him to prefer the education at the Universities.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

SCOTCH BANKING—SMALL-NOTE CURRENCY IN SCOTLAND AND IRELAND.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that after the very ample discussion which the subject of the Small-note Currency had recently, undergone, and after the decided manner in which the House hart expressed its opinion on the general principle of the policy of making the basis of our currency more practically metallic
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than it was at the present moment, he should think it unnecessary to trouble it at any length on the present occasion. He confessed that the more he applied himself to the consideration of the subject, the more he had become persuaded that there was no substantial ground on which it could be maintained, that the other parts of the United Kingdom ought to be put on a different footing from England, if it were right to adopt this system at all.
But he was ready, notwithstanding, to admit, that there might be, with respect to Ireland, and particularly Scotland, circumstances of difference which it was requisite the House should take into consideration before they proceeded to any legislative enactment. He certainly felt that, in matters of this kind, in which the feelings of any large portion of the community were so strongly entertained, and so decidedly expressed, as the opinions and feelings of Scotland had been with respect to this measure, it was but conformable to the course the House was in the habit of following, to give a fair and reasonable opportunity to those who thought their interests likely to be affected, of proving the injurious manner in which they conceived they would be affected by the proposed extension of the measure, and, on the other hand, to enable those who held an opposite opinion to prove that there was, in fact, no ground for apprehension or complaint. It appeared to him, therefore, that the most prudent and effectual mode of attaining the object of all parties would be to allow a full, free, and unreserved consideration to be given to the subject before a select committee. It certainly did so happen, that in former committees which had sat on the subject of the currency, although they had gone fully into the general question, as between Bank paper and gold, this particular point, the small currency, was not debated, and certainly, as it affected Scotland, the question was not at all adverted to in the report of the committee of 1819; and that branch of the subject had undoubtedly not undergone that sort of investigation which the importance of it justly entitled it to. With regard to himself and those who agreed with him in the general opinion he had ventured to pronounce on this subject, he would say it was not fair to charge them, either as respected Ireland or Scotland, with taking up the consideration of this question improperly. In discussing the subject hitherto, it had been over-

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looked, that the very first measure of restriction upon a small-note currency had been framed with exclusive reference to Scotland; for, in the year 1765, an act passed, declaring that the circulation of small notes in Scotland, under the value of twenty shillings, was incompatible with the prosperity of the country. The measure now in contemplation had only for its object, an extension of that principle. It could not, therefore, be maintained, that a measure which promised benefit to the United Kingdom, and the principle of which was admitted by Scotland on a former occasion, without a murmur, could now be injurious to that country, and ought to be resisted. With respect to Ireland, he should only say, that it did not appear to him that there existed there so strong an objection to the measure. Indeed with reference to that country, the question was different; for it oddly enough happened, that the only time at which the Irish parliament had thought proper to prohibit a small-note currency, was in 1799, after the Bank of England had been restrained from cash payments. In 1804, an act of the imperial parliament restored to the bankers the power to issue small notes. He was at a loss, therefore, to conceive on what ground the measure could be objected to. However, as there seemed to be a general impression, that the subject should be thoroughly investigated; as he was confident that the more it was investigated the more it would be approved; and as it was obvious that we should arrive at a more satisfactory conclusion, by a mode which would prevent discussion, and consequently avoid exciting angry passions, which, on every account, it was most desirable should not be called into action, he would move "That a select committee be appointed, to inquire into the state of the circulation in promissory notes under the value of 5l. in Scotland and Ireland, and to report their observations and opinion thereupon to the House, with reference to the expediency of making any alteration in the laws now in force relating thereto."
Mr. Hudson Gurneysaid, though he felt that it was the desire of the House not to enter into any general discussion of the subject at that time, yet he could not sit there and hear the proposal for a committee made, without expressing his opinion of the great inconvenience which the appointment of these committees must always produce, from the general
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uneasiness and unsettlement of men's minds, which they invariably occasioned. The bullion committee of 1810, and the committee of 1819, were of this most pregnant instances; and he most sincerely wished that, without any committee at all, his majesty's ministers had come to the determination of leaving Scotland in. quiet, till they had ascertained how their new system had operated in England. It was quite evident, that if gold were to be supplied to take the place of paper, every extension of surface was increase of difficulty, and increase of the pressure on England, from whence the gold must be drawn, as well as on Scotland. In the present situation of Ireland, there could certainly be no wisdom in adding to embarrassment there; and he could conceive no reason whatever for enforcing simultaneously this uniformity of system, whether ultimately desirable or not. It ought to be remembered, that Scotland had gone on, for more than a century, under its present banking system, whilst England had a specie circulation; and no inconvenience had ever been known to arise to either country from that diversity of custom. Something of the same nature had taken place here. The mere introduction of a golden circulation into the districts surrounding the metropolis had occasioned so great a pressure, that the small notes had been continued to the country; and from this difference of circulation, he had never heard that any practical inconvenience had arisen. In fact, the Scotch system of paper credits, dangerous in itself, in his opinion in the extreme, and of paper currency to meet them, had so interwoven itself with every transaction between man and man, in that country, that he must repeat, in his view, it was, at the present moment, of the greatest possible imprudence to agitate the question, before the experiment had been fairly brought to issue in this country, in the first instance.
Mr. Keith Douglassaid, that parliament ought to show some deference for the petitions which were coming up from all parts of Scotland, in opposition to the proposed alteration of their currency. During the whole period of the Scotch banking system nothing had occurred to warrant the proposed interference in their concerns. The state of things which had arisen in England, and called for a change, sprung from the late panic, occasioned in part by the insolvency

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of some of the smaller bankers: but not so in Scotland, where the people were perfectly satisfied with the solvency of their bankers, and the accommodation which they afforded. In England, the evil to be corrected was, the too great extent of the small bank-note system; and the remedy to be applied was, the suppression of all notes under 5l. leaving their place to be supplied by gold. But then, it was said, that for uniformity's sake, the same system should be extended to Ireland and Scotland, and particularly to the latter; for if the small-note circulation were still upheld there, it must necessarily interfere with, and injuriously affect, the British gold currency, by being mixed up with it. Now, he denied that this could ever take place in the manner apprehended; for nobody in England would countenance the circulation of Scottish notes in preference to their own gold coin. The hon. member then entered into a brief history of the Scotch banking system since its establishment; and pointed out, that as no inconvenience whatever had been found in its practical operation, it was most unwise to meddle with it. As to the appointment of tile proposed committee, feeling the case of Scotland to be so strong, he should riot oppose it. All he hoped was, that the proceedings of the committee would be so directed as to avoid mischief. Care ought to be taken that, while they were investigating the system, no discredit was cast upon individual institutions. The subject in that point of view, Was one of extreme delicacy.
Captain Gordoncontended, that no good could arise from the appointment of a committee. The very circumstance of inquiry led to the presumption that there was something unsound in the Scotch System of banking. But, that that was not the case, he had the authority of the first lord of the Treasury and of the chancellor of the Exchequer, who now proposed the inquiry. They said in their communications with the Bank—"We have a further proof of the truth of what has been advanced, in the experience of Scotland, which escaped all the convulsions which have occurred in the money-market of England for the last thirty-five years, though Scotland, for the whole of that time, has had a circulation of one-pound notes, and the small pecuniary transactions of that part of the United Kingdom have been carried on exclu-
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sively by means of such notes;" and, in another part of the same communication—"The failures which have occurred in England, unaccompanied as they have been by the same occurrences in Scotland, tend to prove that there must have been an unsolid and delusive system of banking in one part of Great Britain, and a solid and substantial one in the other." And again—"In Scotland there are not more than thirty Banks, and these Banks have stood firm amidst all the convulsions in the money-market in England, and amid all the distresses to which the manufacturing and agricultural interests in Scotland, as well as in England, have occasionally been subject. Banks of this description must necessarily be conducted upon the general understood and approved principles of banking." With such authority for the excellence of the system, what necessity was there for inquiry? Were ministers persuaded that they had then formed an erroneous opinion? Had any new light broke in upon them since they penned these sentences? If not, what was it that they wished to inquire into? If it was into the actual currency of Scotland, every Scotch member could inform them, that it was paper. The only question, therefore, was, whether it was desirable to alter it? And that wag one of great magnitude. Scotland had prospered under the present system, and was prospering; and he thought that, with the unanimous voice of the country against any interference with it, it must be considered a strong measure. He regretted that the question had been agitated at all. It had already produced a considerable degree of distrust and want of confidence in the public mind, and would produce still more, if persevered in.
Mr. W. Dundasthought, that government deserved thanks for its conduct on this occasion. He was astonished at the objections brought forward by some horn members to a committee of inquiry. That inquiry was not, whether the banking establishments in Scotland were in a solvent condition or conducted on sound principles, but whether the withdrawal of the one-pound notes would be hurtful to its interests. The members from the northern part of the empire thought that no evil could result from circulating them; but would others take their mere words for the fact? He looked with attachment to a system which had prevailed for upwards of a hundred years, and under which his

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country had prospered; but if that system were weak, he was willing to surrender it for a better. Feeling his case strong, he courted the fullest investigation. To dread it was a sign of weakness.
Mr. Home Drummondwas glad the chancellor of the Exchequer had so candidly admitted the existence of the feeling on this subject, which, be it right or wrong, most certainly did prevail in Scotland, and which, notwithstanding what had been said to the contrary, was so universal, and so strong among persons of all opinions on other subjects, that he did not think he could have been persuaded, in opposition to that feeling, to vote for any measure at present to alter the system of currency now established in Scotland, even if his understanding had been convinced of the propriety of the change; while it is admitted on all hands, that no paramount necessity calls for any immediate interference. To a committee of inquiry, however, he could have no objection, which could tend only to bring out the truth; and he was sure the Scotch banks had no reason to shrink from any investigation of their system. This was not a fit time to enter into details—that would be the business of the committee. But he could not allow this opportunity to pass, without observing, that he did not join in the complaints of which, of late, so much had been heard, as to the grievances of Scotland. He was much more inclined to boast of the advantages she enjoys. He desired for himself, and he believed he might say on the part of every Scotch member of that House, to disclaim all feelings of jealousy of English influence or English interference, [hear, hear]. He had never entertained such a feeling at any time, and never felt less inclined to entertain it, than at present. If we consider what Scotland was before the Union, distracted and impoverished by civil broils and dissensions, and borne down by oppression of every form and degree, and trace its history onwards to the present time, instead of a catalogue of grievances arising from her connection with England, we find a long catalogue of benefits and blessings, to which no Scotchman, who allows himself to think coolly on the subject, can look back with any other feelings than those of unmingled gratitude and respect for the wisdom and the bounty of the British parliament.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgeraldsaid, he had not, on the one hand, been insensible to
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the disadvantages of the proposed alteration of the law with respect to Ireland, at the same time that he did not participate in that spirit of resistance, or rather of rebellion, which had been raised against it from certain quarters. He did not mean rebellion in the usual sense; he meant a rebellion of paper against gold, which had broken out in Scotland [a laugh]. At all events, if not rebellion, there was certainly a very marked seditious spirit manifested in the appeal that was made to to the Scotch to oppose the alteration of the law. But, he owned he had not looked with any degree of apprehension to this expression of feeling, principally because he had no great faith in the permanency of the resistance that would be made to it—an opinion which was justified by the returning symptoms of loyalty that began to exhibit themselves in the northern part of the kingdom. He was glad, however, to be able to vindicate his countrymen from any participation in the resistance which had been carried to such an extent in other quarters, notwithstanding the inflammatory suggestions which had been offered to their minds. This forbearance, he owned, might be attributable, not so much to the steady principle of loyalty, as to the blundering disposition of his countrymen; who, as that ancient historian said of them, "never rebelled at the right time" [a laugh]. The paper of England and Ireland was different. In the former, it was vitiated from various causes, and that vitiation had led to remedial measures: in the latter, the same difficulties had occurred several years ago; and the consequence was, that the circulation of the country was now restricted, and inadequate to meet the necessities of the country. Of all the Banks which existed at that time, only nine remained, and of these, few issued their own notes. The paper in circulation was that of the bank of Ireland, which was safe and unobjectionable, and therefore, in so far as the question related to the circulation of Ireland, no one could deny that it was good. Some new banks had lately been established, and they were constituted on the same principles as those of Scotland. He was not, however, an advocate for an excessive circulation of paper. He was no admirer of the principles of those modern philosophers who sat around him. He abhorred and detested them. He did not object to the principle of a gold currency, but he did not see that

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there was any necessity for applying it to Scotland. The case of Ireland in 1799 had been alluded to; and he would say, that she had been greatly benefited by the conduct of her parliament in that instance; but in 1804, their act was overturned in a wanton manner, and another substituted, which permitted the re-issue of small notes—a re-issue totally uncalled for, except by those who were interested in the circulation of small paper. He was then in office, and was the only individual who had stood up in opposition to it. He had then stated, that in Ireland, a bank had been set up by an apothecary and a captain of dragoons. What might have been the capital of the apothecary he knew not; but the sale of the captain's commission was all that he could muster on the occasion. The consequence was, that in two years afterwards he saw an advertisement calling in their notes to the amount of 490,000 l. The mischief produced by their failure, was incalculable. But though his early feelings were in favour of a metallic currency, he must consider well, before he gave his sanction to the intended measure, whether it would be possible to bring it into action without deranging the commercial system. Those who thought that the paper currency of Ireland and Scotland could be replaced by gold, without producing much inconvenience, were greatly deceived.
Sir C. Forbesconsidered the motion unnecessary and uncalled for. The system as it existed was quite satisfactory. The hon. member for Montrose had alluded to several publications on the subject, but he considered it below the dignity of the House to spend half hours and hours in discussing the merits of anonymous publications, whether signed by Malachi Malagrowther, or any other fictitious name. He had read none of them, and therefore could not be swayed by any thing the authors advanced. He would not, however, vote against the motion. He approved so highly of the plain, downright, John Bull statements of the chancellor of the Exchequer on most occasions, that he would not now oppose him, though he disagreed with him as to the necessity of the measure.
Mr. Alderman Woodconsidered that there was no necessity for inquiry with regard to Scotland. If the hon. baronet would change his sentiment, and vote with him, he would divide the House on the question. If an inquiry must be instituted, let it embrace the whole kingdom.
Mr. T. Wilsonagreed, that where the system was admitted to be pure, it was unnecessary to institute an inquiry. It was not usual to call a man to the bar of the House for the purpose of inquiring into his good conduct. The argument of good conduct was the worst that could be made in support of the motion. The necessity of inquiry implied that something wrong was apprehended. Much injury had already been done to the English banks by the measures of the government; and the inquiry might inflict the same on the Scotch. It was, if he might use so homely an illustration, tantamount to giving a dog a bad name.
The motion was agreed to.

WESTMINSTER ABBEY.
Mr. Humerose, to make a motion to the House relative to the money taken by the dean and chapter of Westminster from the public, for admission to view the Monuments in Westminster abbey. He was induced to make the motion, in consequence of an item in the estimates, for a sum of money to the dean and chapter for cleaning those monuments. He understood, the annual revenue of that establishment amounted to 20,000 l. and that the individuals who attended visitors through the abbey, instead of being paid out of that fund, were remunerated by fees which the public ought not to pay. That House had very properly voted several sums for the erection of monuments in Westminster abbey, for the purpose of perpetuating the actions of illustrious individuals who had rendered great services to the country; and he understood that large sums had been paid to the dean and chapter for permission to erect the monuments in the abbey. That being the case, he thought they ought to be open to the public for inspection. From a correspondence which had been, put into his hands, it appeared, that the individuals appointed to superintend the collection of the money paid for admission, were the minor canons, among whom the money collected was divided. He believed that about fifty years ago the admission fee to the abbey was not more than a penny or twopence; a sum quite sufficient to keep out that description of persons who would be most likely to do injury to the monuments. His object was, to ascertain whether or not the dean, and chapter had aright to demand money from the public for permission to view

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monuments erected at the public expense. He had thought the dean and chapter would, by attending to the strong expression of public opinion upon the subject, have prevented the necessity of this motion. If it should turn out that the funds were not sufficient without the assistance of the admission fees to support the establishment, some arrangement might take place, but if it should turn out that that House or his majesty had no power to compel the dean and chapter to open the monuments to the inspection of the public, he should protest against granting a single shilling of the public money for permission to erect those monuments. He concluded by moving, for an account of the sums charged by the dean and chapter of Westminster for the admission of each visitor to view the public monuments in that abbey, the total amount received from that source in each year, for the last five years, and how the same has been appropriated.
Mr. Secretary Peeldid not rise to oppose the motion, as he thought it fair that the House should be in possession of the information asked for. The hon. member, however, was in error, if he supposed that the dean and chapter of Westminster had any rights different from those of other deans and chapters. The House he believed, had no power to compel them to admit strangers to the abbey. He was also wrong in supposing that the fees for the admission of visitors were of recent origin. They had existed from very early periods, and instances might be found in the Record-office, of their being granted by patent; though, since the Restoration they had been granted during pleasure. In 1613, a patent was granted, which he had seen, to sir E. Phipps, sir R. Miller, and others, to collect the fees for shewing the monuments to visitors. At present the fees were divided among the minor canons and the choir. The amount of the income of the minor canons, who were obliged to attend about four months in the year, was about one hundred pounds per annum, and of this they drew about seventy pounds from the fees. The admission fee had been diminished, and was not at present more than was necessary to protect the monuments. The abbey was now opened three times a day to every body when divine service was performed; it was opened without any charge, at all seasonable times, to artists; and the admission fee had been
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reduced from 2s. to 1s. 3d. The total amount of the emoluments would be seen when the papers were produced. The hon. member was wrong if he supposed that the dean and chapter had not laid out any money in repairing the abbey. During the last twenty-five years, they had expended 53,627 l. for that purpose; being on an average upwards of 2,000 l. a year. During the last twelve years, 40,000 l. had been applied to the repairs of the abbey, being more than 3,300 l. per annum. This shewed that the dean and chapter had paid liberally for the maintenance of their magnificent abbey. They might mistake in demanding a sum for admission, but he was persuaded that they acted bona fide, and were sincere in their opinion, that such a sum was necessary to secure the safety of the monuments.
Mr. Hobhousesaid, that when he was at Westminster school, Poets' corner and the aisle of the abbey, the only portion of the abbey which was viewed with interest, except by a person who might come to gaze about London for a few days, were open to the public. He thought the preferable mode would be, to have the abbey open, as it formerly was, to the public, and to appoint a guardian, whose duty it would be, to preserve the monuments from injury.
Mr. W. Smiththought, that as the public had paid considerable sums to the dean and chapter for permission to erect those monuments, upon which a large sum of public money had been expended, they ought to be open for inspection.
Mr. Peelsaid, it was a mistake to suppose, that the dean and chapter had received money for permission to erect the public monuments, although they occupied a considerable space in the abbey, for which individuals would pay.
Mr. Baringsaid, that if the rights contended for by the dean and chapter were pushed to their extent, they might as well shut up the abbey against the entrance of persons for the purpose of divine worship, contrary to the privilege which prevailed in every catholic country.
Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, that he knew an instance in which a member of that House, wearied with a dull committee, had gone to the Abbey and heard a good sermon, for which he paid nothing; but after it was over, he was asked for money to see the monuments. This, however, he refused, and there was no power to enforce it.
The motion was agreed to.

CRUEL TREATMENT OF CATTLE BILL.
Mr. R. Martinhaving moved, that the bill be read a second time,
The Solicitor-Generalobjected to the bill, as being too general and indefinite in its enactments.
Mr. R. Martindefended the principle of the bill, and maintained the general accuracy of the statements he had made on a former occasion, as to the instances of cruelty practised on several animals, and what he had said of the cruelty practised in Oxfordshire towards a bull. It was true that the tongue had been torn out of the animal while alive; but it was not sent round on a plate, but on a piece of paper. The other cases of cruelty he had mentioned were also substantially correct. The case of the flaying of a dog alive was told him by a highly respectable magistrate. He thought he should have great reason to complain of the attorney-general, if he opposed the present bill; for it was in substance a copy of one which, on a former occasion, bad been corrected and approved of by that learned gentleman. His object was, to place that faithful animal, the dog, on the same footing of protection with other domestic animals.
Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, he could not support the present bill, and thought he had reason to complain of the hon. member far having deserted his post the other evening when the flogging of men was under discussion. He trusted that when that question should next be agitated, the hon. member would favour the House with his attendance, and that he would not, in the mean time, expend all his sympathy upon dogs and cats, but reserve some portion of it for his own species.
Mr. George Lambdid not mean to charge the hon. member for Galway with venal motives; but he really thought the only person likely to be benefited by the reward to informers, was the hon. gentleman himself. He would oppose the bill, unless he could see that they were about to legislate upon some fixed principle, rather than upon isolated instances.
Mr. Lockhartapproved of the principle of the bill, which had received the sanction of the legislature already, under the hon. member's auspices; but objected to any such extension of its principle as was intended by the present measure.
Mr. Trantopposed the bill, and moved, that it be read a second time this day six months.
Mr. Warre, although he had been a decided supporter of the other measures of the hon. member for Galway, could not give his vote for the present bill. He thought that as much had been done as the subject required, and that the hon. member ought to be satisfied without pressing other bills, for the protection of animals, on the consideration of parliament.
The amendment was agreed to, and the second reading put off for six months.

USURY LAWS.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he held in his hand a petition from the same body in Manchester from which, a few days before he presented a petition in favour of the bill, for putting an end to the circulation of small notes. The petitioners thought the subject was materially connected with that bill; and he could not but think that it had, if not directly, at least indirectly, a connection with it, as it related to the subject of commercial distress. The object of this petition was, to call their lordships' attention to the Usury Laws. Those laws had certainly greatly aggravated the distress which prevailed among the mercantile classes. Few of their lordships could be aware of the great loss of capital and loss of interest, which had taken place, within the last six months, in consequence of that unfortunate attempt of the law of England to fix the value of capital,—to make that fixed which was in its nature unfixed and variable. This constituted a state of things which had been the ruin of many individuals; but he spoke not now so much with reference to the effect of the law on the landed interest as to its operations on commerce. Such was the state of the law, that if persons found it necessary to borrow money they could not do so on terms above the fixed rate. What was this but saying that they might borrow money when they had no occasion do so; but that when their exigencies required them to borrow, the law should step in and shut them out from that resource? Thus, in times of great pressure, the law compelled persons in difficulty to resort to the most ruinous terms. This was as inconsistent as it would be to say to a person insuring his life, that no insurance should be effected for less than ten years' purchase. The principle was the same as telling such a person, that when he was in good health he might effect his purpose, but that at a moment of sickness or in advanced age, when insurance became the more necessary for the sake of his wife and children, he should then be deprived of the opportunity of taking such a step. He defied any noble lord to show that there was the least difference in principle between a law which would prohibit the insurance of life at such value as might be put upon it, and one which prevented a man from
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placing what value he pleased upon his capital. The profit on capital must, like every thing else, depend on the relation between the supply and demand; and if sound principles of commerce were followed, the interest of money would always readily adjust itself to the state of trade. To try to fix it by law, to impose a maximum, was as vain an attempt as to fix the mercury in the barometer. The most advantageous course for individuals, and the best policy for government, was to allow the value of capital to adjust itself to the wants of commerce. On this subject he concurred with the sentiments expressed in the petition, which was from the Chamber of Commerce of Manchester.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he had had an opportunity of learning the sentiments of the petitioners, at a meeting which took place some time ago, when certain persons belonging to the same body as the petitioners, applied to government to learn whether it could not afford relief to the existing commercial distress. Those persons assured him that they should not have made, nor would they have had pretence for making, application to government for relief, had it not been for the circumstances in which they were placed by the Usury Laws. Now he was aware that obstacles stood in the way of abrogating those laws altogether, in consequence of their bearing on particular interests; but, notwithstanding this, he was of opinion, that at no distant day their lordships must give their best consideration to the state of those laws. The question was one of much difficulty, but the present state of the law could be defended on no sound principle.