Sitting of 14 March 1826

BANKING SYSTEM IN SCOTLAND.
Lord A. Hamiltonpresented a petition from Lanark. He said, he thought it singular, after the government had so often lauded the system of banking in Scotland, and held it up for the imitation of the English bankers, that they should propose to effect a total alteration in it.
Mr. Abercrombysaid, he did not believe that the real feeling of the people of Scotland was opposed to the alteration in the currency of Scotland. On the contrary, he had reason to believe that the opposition came from persons interested in keeping up the present system. He was happy to find the whole of the press in Scotland advocating the cause of truth, and arguing in favour of the intended alteration, and acquainted as he was with the character of his countrymen, he could not refrain from expressing his surprise at the unblushing effrontery with which it was stated that the paper currency was universally believed to be intimately connected with the interests of Scotland.
Mr. W. Dundasthought the learned gentleman's statement proved him to be little acquainted with the present condition of his countrymen. His habits necessarily withdrew him from Scotland; and he appeared to have formed the opinions he had just now expressed from the press, which, whatever might be its other merits, was not an unquestionable authority on this subject. It was most natural that the great majority of the Scotch should be, as they were, averse to the alteration of a system under which their country had risen, in the course of a hun-

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dred years, to a degree of prosperity unparalleled in history. All they called for now was fair inquiry; and with the result of that, be it what it might, they would be satisfied.
Mr. Ellicebelieved it would appear that the Scotch banks, the sound principle of which had been so much vaunted, had very materially tended to produce the mischiefs that were now felt so generally in Scotland.
Mr. J. Smithwas enabled to state, from his knowledge of the several banks of Scotland, that they enjoyed the highest credit throughout that country.
Mr. Maberlybelieved that the Scotch nation were, from habit, so attached to the paper system, that they would refuse gold, if it was offered to them in lieu of it; but still he thought that the system ought to be altered, as a period of panic and pressure might arise in Scotland, when the mischief of such a currency would entail ruin upon that country.
Mr. Home Drummondhad no objection to the appointment of a committee on the subject. He was quite satisfied that the petition expressed the general opinion throughout Scotland, and that there had never been a question on which that country had been so unanimous.
Mr. Hudson Gurneythought that nothing was more injurious than keeping a country in the state of uneasiness and uncertainty which discussions of this nature must necessarily create. If he might venture to offer his advice to the chancellor of the Exchequer, it would be to leave Scotland in the state in which it now was, until he had seen how the proposed alterations of system had worked in England, where, he conceived, the right hon. gentleman had already full enough on his hands, without extending the surface of his operations, and thereby greatly increasing his own embarrassments.
Colonel Johnsonsaid, be should be glad to have the real opinion of the people of Scotland, on this subject. When he was in that country, he believed they had no option; for he had never seen any gold at all. If the petitions spoke the sense of the people of Scotland, he was very much mistaken. He was rather inclined to attribute them to persons who were interested in keeping up the present state of things.
Mr. Baringsaid, he should be sorry to have a notion go abroad that the committee was to be appointed to inquire into
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the solvency of the Scotch bankers. To do so would be inconsistent with prudence and common sense. At the same time, he had no doubt that such an inquiry might be made without any detriment to those bankers, of whose credit he had the highest opinion. The appointment of a committee on the subject might, however, be judicious; and, seeing the unanimous opposition which appeared to be made, he thought it would not be right to adopt the proposed measure without an investigation into the grounds of that opposition. The difficulty of returning to a metallic currency within the prescribed time even in England, would, in his mind, be much greater than many gentlemen imagined. It was, however, his decided opinion, that the measure would be good for nothing if it were not, sooner or later, extended to Scotland.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it had never been his intention to submit to the House any question as to the solvency of the banks in Scotland. He was assured that they were all solvent; and if they were not, an inquiry of that nature would be as unprofitable as it would be ungracious. His only object was, to ascertain whether it would be politic to leave the small notes in circulation in Scotland, when they were abolished in England; and that he considered to be a very proper question for investigation by a committee.
Ordered to lie on the table.

EMIGRATION.
Mr. Wilmot Hortonsaid, he rose for the purpose of bringing forward the motion of which he had given notice, for a select committee "to inquire into the expediency of encouraging Emigration from the United Kingdom." It would not be necessary for him to enter at length into the subject. The House would recollect, that, in the year 1823, a sum of 50,000 l. had been voted for the purpose of enabling a certain number of men, women, and children; to emigrate to the North American colonies. The number who then availed themselves of the encouragement held out by government was, in all, 268. The expense incurred by the country was 22 l. for each person. They were now placed in Upper Canada, and from a state of wretchedness and misery, were now comfortably and prosperously situated. This experiment having so far succeeded, it

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was thought advisable to extend it in 1825, and there were then sent out, including men, women, and children, 2,024 persons. The average expense of each was not so great as in 1823: it amounted to about 20 l. The House would see, therefore, that for a sum of 20 l. persons might be fixed in Canada, in a comfortable situation, with the prospect of independence before them, who, had they remained in Ireland, could hope for nothing but those privations, and that wretchedness and penury, in which the poor of many districts were obliged to drag out a miserable existence. The whole of those who had been sent out were in fact paupers, divested of all means of procuring a subsistence at home, and utterly incapable of providing for themselves and families. The most ample particulars connected with the subject of these experiments would be found in the reports of the committees of 1823 and 1825. It would therefore be unnecessary for him to go into them. He should content himself with saying, that the experiment of 1823 had completely succeeded, and that that of 1825 was in progress of success. In Upper Canada, the description given of the settlers by a person who might be relied upon was, that they were comfortably fixed on their land, perfectly contented with their situation, grateful for what had been done for them, making great progress, and living on the most friendly terms with the settlers who went out in 1817 and 1818. There appeared in the Canada paper a letter from a person named Fitzgibbon, one of the party who went out. Here the hon. member read an extract from the letter, speaking in high terms of the situation and prospects of his companions, and of the kind manner in which they had been received. He read another letter to the same effect, from a Roman Catholic clergyman, who accompanied them, and one from the superintendant, stating that the settlers were all comfortable, and doing well. To form an adequate idea of the misery of these poor wretches (for the emigrants who were sent out from Ireland were invariably Selected from the poorest and most destitute classes), it was only necessary to refer to the reports of the evidence given before the committee on Irish affairs in the years 1823 and 1825., The hon. member here read extracts from the evidence of Dr. Doyle, the archbishop
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of Cashel, Mr. O'Connell, and others, all uniting, in describing the situation of the Irish peasant as being most wretched. This was a picture which, however deplorable it might be, no Irishman who heard him would say was exaggerated. He would now read a letter from one of these identical emigrants, addressed to the superintendant. The hon. gentleman then read a letter, which mentioned the prosperous condition of the writer; that he had on hand a considerable surplus of corn, meal, and other produce; and that the only inconvenience experienced was the want of a market. Such was the change effected in the habits and comforts of these poor people by a transfer from one place to another. The hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Hume) had, in 1825, protested against such experiments, as an expense to which the country should not be put, and as not being likely to be productive of any advantage. He begged to remind the House, that government never had it iii contemplation to supply all the expenses necessary for carrying, such experiments further. Their object was to show, by a few trials, to those who might be interested in forwarding such a system, and in removing a redundant population, the ease with which it might be carried into effect, and the good consequences resulting from it. The hon. gentleman opposite had, upon a former occasion, contended that the mother country could have no interest in retaining the Canadas. In answer to the hon. gentleman, he had endeavoured to show the advantages that might be derived from them; from the facility they afforded of remedying, in some measure, the inconveniences arising from superabundance of population. It had been observed, in, reference to the subject of colonization, that the value of the commodities now taken from this country by the United States of America was seven times greater than at any period previous to the war, while they continued in the situation of a colony. The fact, however, was not so. The value of the commodities was only one half greater. The population of the United States was at present ten millions, and their consumption of English commodities was at the rate of about 12 s. a head, while the consumption of the population of their own colonies, the, Canadas, was upwards of 2l. per head. This, he thought, should at least make them hesitate before they received, as a

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thing not to be disputed, the principle that colonies were productive of no benefit to the mother country. The hon. gentleman must be aware, that in the committee of last year one of the questions put to Mr. M'Culloch was this: If an adult man and woman, in a state of hopeless and helpless poverty, cannot be supported in Ireland for less than 20 l. a year, and if four such can be removed for 80 l. to the Canadas, where they may procure for themselves a comfortable subsistence, is it not clear that, when they could be thus settled for four years' purchase, it would be for the advantage of the country to send them out? Mr. M'Culloch's answer was, that, if it cost 20 l. to support in Ireland, two persons who, by their labours, added nothing to the capital of the country, 80 l. would be well disposed in sending away four individuals so circumstanced, provided means were taken to prevent the vacancies left by them in population from being filled up [hear! from Mr. Hume]. He understood the intimation given by the lion, member, but contended, that the condition of leaving vacant in Ireland the place which had been occupied by the emigrant, had always been entertained by the committee as inseparable from the plan of emigration. Mr. M'Culloch considered further, that the removal of poor individuals from Ireland might be carried into effect by the tenants, if the landlords gave securities to the government that the vacancies would not be supplied for the next fifteen or twenty years. He was sure a simultaneous and well-regulated emigration would not be denied to be superior to the desultory departures of straggling individuals; as the numbers who would emigrate under the authority of government would be better superintended, better supported, and better localized. He did not pretend to say whether Mr. M'Culloch's doctrine was right or wrong; but, at all events, the very first principle of emigration was, that the persons sent out should be assisted by the mother country for a certain time, until they received such an impetus as would enable them to go forward themselves. Nor could the assistance thus afforded be considered as so much lost or thrown away; for it should be recollected, that the mother country would share in the eventful advantages, and that the capital thus employed, though transferred to another place, still
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remained within the empire. He threw out these few observations merely for the purpose of drawing the attention of the House to the subject. The question of emigration mixed itself up with that of the colonial system; and if it were true that, in our trade with our colonies, both the parties were benefitted, it was clear that by means of emigration we should be doubly increasing the aggregate profits of the empire. He threw out this, because there seemed to be a disposition to impeach the present colonial system. He hoped that the question would be brought forward in a distinct shape, that it might be ascertained whether the system of our ancestors was to be departed from or not. He put it to the House, whether a measure which seemed calculated to convert a riotous peasantry into a class of industrious farmers and yeomen, was not deserving of consideration at the present moment, when we were devising improvements in our criminal code, and endeavouring to lessen crime. These were the grounds on which he should move, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the expediency of encouraging Emigration from the United Kingdom."
Mr. Humesaid, he had no objection to the inquiry; for he felt quite satisfied that when the subject was considered by a committee, they would have a report disapproving of the expenditure of the money of the country for such an object. It never could answer for them to incur the expense of 100 l. for sending a poor man and his family from Ireland to the Canadas. Give the poor man the 100 l., and he would establish himself as comfortably in Ireland as any where else. Mr. M'Culloch's opinion was not favourable to the extension of such a plan. He recollected asking him, on the committee, whether he thought the sending of 100,000 of the population from Ireland would be productive of much benefit. His answer was, that it would be no more than a drop of water in the ocean. Five hundred thousand, he said, might have some effect, provided reproduction could be prevented; for otherwise, in two or three years, we should have the same number again The question then was, whether 2,000,000 l. were to be expended for a temporary relief of one or two years. The inquiry proposed, would, he thought, do good, and he should therefore give the motion his support.
The motion was agreed to.

BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS BILL.
Lord John Russellhaving moved the second reading of this bill,
Mr. Wynnsaid, that as he understood it, the principle of the bill was, that upon complaint made to the House, a select committee should be appointed to try the issue, and that their decision should be absolute and final. To this there was this obvious objection—that the decision of no committee could be binding upon the House. The inquisitorial powers of the House might be delegated; but not the judicial. A body might be appointed to bring in a true verdict as to fact; but the question of corruption was a question of inference. All that a committee could do, was to report to the House; and the House could then do what they pleased upon it—either proceed further, or let it sleep. The bill also gave power to present petitions of complaint within six years from the period. This he thought too long. He also objected that there was no penalty or punishment assigned to an unfounded charge. Experience ought to show them the necessity of some such thing. In 1788, it was found necessary to enact, that any person presenting a frivolous petition should pay the whole costs. Now, this bill enacted, that the public should pay the costs of the whole inquiry. This would give rise to a thousand evils, of which they had at present no idea. It would, beyond question, lead not only to Vexatious but to malicious charges; and moreover, for the bringing of such charges, no penalty was declared. To the system proposed for choosing the committee of inquiry, too, he objected. The provision as to the appointment of the nominee was perfectly unfair. The nomineeship was perhaps the worst part of the existing system. Each party, in a petition of the kind in question, now named tome one person upon the committee in whose discretion he thought he could confide: and that nominee invariably became a counsel in the case rather than a judge. But the noble lord's bill gave the accuser the power of appointing such a nominee, and withheld it from the defendant—an alteration which made that course partial and unjust, which was objectionable enough already. The House had already possessed powers amply sufficient to correct bribery whenever a case of the kind was fairly made out. He never knew an instance in which the House had failed to deal severely with those against whom
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corrupt practices at elections had been substantiated.
Mr. Warrewas of opinion, that, in point of principle, no fair objection could be raised against the present measure, because they all knew perfectly well, that election committees were in the habit, under particular circumstances, of making special reports, the matter contained in which gave rise to ulterior proceedings. He could by no means go along with the right hon. gentleman in his statement, that the law, in its present state, was sufficient to put an end to those corrupt and disgraceful practices which were known to be carried on in elections. The House ought to be allowed a more extended period than was now granted, for hearing complaints on the subject of bribery and corruption. The call for reform should not be confined to those only who were within parliament; it ought to reach those who were without the walls of that House. Reform was as much required amongst the electors as amongst the elected; and if the noble lord could devise a plan, by which notorious and scandalous practices of the sort to which his bill referred could be put an end to, a most beneficial object would be gained. In some of the boroughs those practices were notorious. If the provisions of the present measure were hung over them in terrorem, it would produce a very good effect. He trusted, therefore, that the bill would be suffered to go into a committee, and that gentlemen would lend their cordial endeavours to render its provisions effectual.
Mr. Lockhartdenied that the House had, under the existing law, sufficient power to correct the evil. The right hon. gentleman had not denied that corrupt practices existed; and it was well known, that in some boroughs those practices were carried to an enormous extent. Surely such a system should be done away with.
Mr. Hudson Gurneythought the provisions of this bill so extremely objectionable that if any member would divide the House, he would vote against the second reading. Its principle went to keep alive, in all the boroughs, a state of never-ceasing dissention, and to involve the House in litigations without end.
Mr. N. Calvertobserved, that every means ought to be taken to put down bribery at elections. The right of voting ought to be considered as a trust, and not treated as if it were a properly; and the

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moment the electors of any place were found guilty of corrupt practices, they ought to be disfranchised. The hon. gentleman adverted to a case in which it was clearly proved that the election of an individual was secured by a plentiful supply of new Bank of England notes, that individual being connected with the Bank.
Mr. Pearsedefended the Bank of England from having any knowledge of the transaction to which the hon. member had alluded.
Mr. N. Calvertsaid, he happened to be on a committee, where it was proved that new Bank notes came down to the election in consecutive numbers, and some of them were traced to the voters.
Mr. Wynnsaid, he had ever supported the principle of disfranchising whenever abuse could be proved; but he was in doubt whether the present bill was calculated to remove or to promote the evils which it proposed to remedy.
Colonel Daviesreminded the House, that the proof of a single act of corruption, in an individual elector, vitiated the return of the candidate whom he had supported. Would hon. members say, that the corruption of an individual should be held as the act of all his fellow electors, and sufficient to disfranchise the entire borough?
Mr. W. Smiththought that the evil which this bill was intended to repress required correction. Some years ago he had had a negotiation for one of those open boroughs, as they were called; but when he came to inquire into the business, he found that the former member had promised 10 l. to each of the electors, which debt had been left unpaid. Now, what was the new candidate called on to do I He was told, that he must put into the Post-office a certain number of 10 l. notes, directed, under cover, to such and such persons, before he could proceed further. How they were to be afterwards disposed of, the candidate, of course, could not exactly say, though he could easily guess. Any person paying the least attention to election proceedings in many places, must see that corrupt practices were carried on, although, in most cases, it would be difficult to bring the charge home to any individual.
Mr. Hobhousesaid, that an intelligence had gone abroad on this, as well as on other subjects, which rendered it impossible that the law should be continued in its present state. He saw no great force in the observations of an hon. gentleman,
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that the electors ought to reform themselves; because it was evident, that if there were none to offer bribes, none could be bribed. The House ought, therefore, to begin with those who were desirous of procuring seats in parliament. The law ought to be so framed as to make it impossible for any person to introduce himself into parliament by base and dishonest means. The state of the law was extremely imperfect; and, in many instances, the House had not neglected its duty, but was unable, in consequence of that state of the law, to perform it. There was a striking instance in that House, at the present moment, of the inefficacy of the law. A petition was presented against the return of a certain borough, and one of the individuals connected with that election was sent to prison, while the other took his seat in that House, where he still remained, although there was little difference in the two cases. He knew not whether the noble lord's bill would have the effect which was contemplated; but he would support it, because he was glad to see the House taking any step on this subject, considering, as he did, that bribery at elections was the root of every evil which afflicted the country. It was notorious that corruption prevailed to a very great extent. There was a standing order of that House forbidding the interference of peers in the election of members of parliament; but it was well known that it was not regarded. His hon. friend needed not to have introduced the statement relative to the borough, the electors of which were to be paid up their 10 l. arrears. It was not necessary to point out isolated cases, when it was well known that many gentlemen who sat in that House were only representatives of their own money. One individual, who had distinguished himself as much as any individual of the age, had paid 1,000 l. a-year to serve as member for a place which he never saw. When he heard gentlemen congratulating one another on the purity of parliament, and gravely declaring that there was no necessity for reform, he could not help thinking of the words of Cicero: "I wonder how one augur can ever meet another without laughing." In like manner, he wondered how, on such occasions, one member of parliament could look in the face of another without laughing. When the whole system was one great blot, he knew not where to commence the cleansing process; but he

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would always support the efforts made by others for that purpose, although they might fall short of his own views and wishes.
Mr. F. Palmerwas perfectly convinced that some sort of reform in parliament, for which the people had been calling for the last twenty years, ought to be introduced. The people looked to that House for such a reform; and, if the House did not reform itself from within, it would ultimately be reformed from without. In saying this, he was making use of an old expression; but such was, in his opinion, the feeling which pervaded the people.
Lord J. Russellsaid, that the statements which had been made that night, proved that some measure of the kind was absolutely called for. The general election was fast approaching, and no doubt could be entertained that bribery and corruption were now going on. This rendered it the more necessary to make a speedy alteration in the law. It was notorious, that the returns to that House were, in many instances, made in virtue of money, and nothing else. He did not mean to make any remark on what had fallen from the hon. member for Hertford, or the lion, member for Devizes, relative to the Bank; but it was a remarkable circumstance, that when the hon. member for Penrhyn (Mr. Grenfell) had apprised his constituents, that he would decline making any advances to that borough, if likely to be attended with pecuniary expense, a person connected with the Bank immediately went down to form a connexion with that place, where he was not at all known; and it certainly was doubtful, whether some of the newly-issued Bank of England notes would not find their way to Penrhyn in the course of the next election. While such notorious practices were carrying on, was it not the duty of the House to take steps to check them? He had himself known instances in which the electors, when the member had been in the House for fourteen days without any petition being presented against his return, had come forward and said, "the fourteen days are now over, and we call upon you to pay us for returning you." Such disgraceful conduct ought to be put an end to. He did not know that his bill would have the complete effect, but he hoped that it might be so modeled as to answer the purposes for which he intended it. The high tone of feeling in the country on this subject, and the improved state
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of society, warranted him in saying, that this bill, or one of a similar nature, must finally be carried.
The Bill was then read a second time.

MUTINY BILL—FLOGGING IN THE ARMY.
On the order of the day for the third reading of the Mutiny bill,
Mr. Humeobserved, that the feeling of the country, which had been so pointedly referred to in the discussion of the question just now disposed of, was, without question, diametrically opposed to the system of military flogging. He hoped the time would soon arrive, when Englishmen would no longer be the only European subjects whom it was thought necessary to goad to the completion of their duty with the whip. Why should it be presumed that British soldiers would fail in that sense of honour which animated all other troops? The reason was to be found in the very nature of the punishment. They brutalized men by their discipline, and then complained that the men acted as brutes. He protested against the continuance of the system.
Mr. Hobhousecongratulated himself on having been one of the minority of forty-seven who voted against flogging the other evening. He felt the more justified in that sentiment, by the recollection that his hon. colleague (sir F. Burdett) when he first introduced the subject to the House, was one in a minority of six at the utmost. Last year the minority was considerable, and this year more so. After the holidays, he proposed to move for returns for two different periods, which would show the progress which this subject had made in the public mind. It was highly satisfactory to know the opinion entertained of it by the commander-in-chief and several of the first generals of the army. But if, according to the opinion inculcated by those high military authorities, and enforced by their practice, the discipline of the army had notoriously improved by the relaxation of that inhuman mode of punishment, how could gallant officers assure the House that it was necessary that the power of inflicting it should remain with the officers of the army? The House must feel great deference for the opinion of practical men, but could not listen to them when they proposed to the House to act upon what they considered to be a safe understanding as distinguished from feeling. The fact was, that the House would be safer

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in legislating upon feeling, which in such a case would be an indication of the soundest general opinion, than upon understanding taken in hostility to feeling. He hoped to live to see the day when those who abetted the continuance of this discipline would be ashamed of their former opinions, and feel glad that more humane sentiments had prevailed.
The bill was then read a third time.

ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.
Earl Grosvenorsaid, he held in his hand a peti-
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tion from the city of Chester, which he had been, in concert with the right rev. prelate opposite, requested to present to their lordships. The petitioners stated, that they regarded the existence of slavery as contrary to every principle of humanity and justice, and in this sentiment he heartily concurred. The noble earl complained that, from the papers on the table, it appeared that obstacles were interposed in the way of slaves obtaining their manumission. If the colonial assemblies persisted in refusing to attend to the recommendations of government for ameliorating the condition of the slaves, he trusted that fiscal regulations and other measures would be adopted.
The Bishop of Chestersaid, that having been requested to present this petition with his noble friend, he had great pleasure in doing so. He concurred in the sympathy expressed for the sufferings of the negro population of the West Indies, but he was content to leave the details of the measures for their relief in the hands of his majesty's ministers, being satisfied that, with regard to this subject, they were actuated by the same feelings of justice and humanity as the public, and were likely to proceed with more discretion and policy.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, he had a petition to present on a point connected with the West-India slavery, which had not been touched upon in the late debates on that subject; namely, the situation of free men of colour. It appeared, that according to the laws of Barbadoes and other islands, the evidence of free persons of colour could not be received against whites. In case of their incarceration on any charge, they could not be allowed to go at large, unless they obtained what was called white bail. They could not serve as constables or jurymen, and were not allowed to vote on the election of white men to offices. It was evidently absurd to talk of giving liberty to the blacks in the West Indies, if those men of colour who were already emancipated, were not allowed to enjoy the rights of free men. The petitioner was very modest in his demand. He only prayed that their lordships would institute an inquiry into the propriety of considering how far free men of colour ought to obtain relief. From this prayer their lordships would perceive that he was not a person who was inclined to dash at once to a conclusion. He was, however, a

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person well acquainted with the situation of the people of colour in our West-India islands. Their lordships would readily perceive how vain must be the hope to raise the blacks in the scale of society, when the people of colour already made free were still treated as slaves. He therefore wished to ask the noble lord opposite what had been done on this subject? Was it the intention of the government to send out any instructions to the law officers of the Crown, or other authorities in the colonies, to submit to the legislative assemblies, bills for assimilating the situation of free men of colour, as to their rights, to that of the whites?
Earl Bathurstobserved, that there was some difficulty connected with this subject. It formed a separate question from the general one relating to slavery; but it bad not been overlooked, and was under the consideration of government.

CORN LAWS.
Lord Kingsaid, he rose to present a petition against that real dead-weight, or job of jobs, the Corn laws. On this subject he had already had the misfortune to provoke two of his noble friends. One of them had told him, that it was very improper to take the House by surprise with arguments which noble lards were not prepared to answer. On the present, occasion, therefore, he should avoid any of those abstruse principles of political economy which had been so much complained of, but would confine himself to history and plain matter of fact. Turning, then, to history, he must remind their lordships of the period when the Corn laws were passed. That event took place in those dark ages of legislation, in those times of ignorance, when it was gravely declared that a one-pound note was equal in value to a sovereign. Then it was, when our political sun was in obscuration, that a law was passed to make corn and bread dear. Tradition said, that after a very expensive war, the landlords objected to pay their share of the expense. They liked the war very well, but they did not like to be called upon when the bill came to be settled. They then took counsel how to avoid paying their part of the bill. Two ways occurred to them of accomplishing that object. The first was by defrauding the public creditor; the second by taxing the consumers of corn. Now it happened, that to the first course the government objected the public creditor was therefore
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saved, bat the consumer of corn was sacrificed. It appeared that at this time a close alliance had been formed between the government, the landowners, and the clergy. The object of the government was high taxes; the object of the landowners high rents; and the object of the clergy high tithes. Now he believed, that with regard to rents and tithes, the landlords and the clergy were as obdurate as ever; but he was persuaded that the government would break the compact, if they could. They would willingly abandon this mode of taxing for one which would work more easily and with better effect. But it was said, how is it possible to obtain high taxes without high prices? To this he would answer, that high taxes could be paid with much greater ease, if the high prices were got rid of; for this Corn laws formed a grievous addition to the other burthens of the country, and if the public had not to pay so dear for corn, the weight of the other taxes would be more easily borne. This dead-weight thrown on the first necessary of life, reminded him of an awkward method which had been resorted to in its production. A practice, it was said, once prevailed in Ireland of fastening the plough to the horse's tail, and in that way making him drag it along. Perhaps the noble earl opposite (lord Limerick) would stand up in defence of that ancient and venerable practice; but he would advise the noble earl to consider the difference between a field ploughed by the miserable Irish horse of antiquity with the plough at his tail, and another ploughed by a well-harnessed and a wellfed horse, who could put his shoulder to the work. If he looked well to this point, he would find, that the horse yoked as horses were elsewhere ploughed, with great ease, six inches deep, while the jaded animal, with the plough at its tail, could barely scratch the ground. Now, it was precisely the same thing with the Corn laws. Like the plough at the horse's tail they were a dead-weight on the public, and damped the energies of the country. If their lordships were really desirous that it should be enabled to support a great amount of taxation, they would lose no time in repealing those laws.
The Earl of Limerickdeclared, that when the noble lord began to address their lordships, he had no intention of replying to any thing which might be said on the subject of this petition. He was, how-

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ever, glad to find that the noble lord had somewhat varied his note on the present occasion, and that the "job of jobs" was no longer the sole name of the Corn laws, but that they were now called the "deadweight." He congratulated the noble lord on this invention, and had no doubt that, during the session, some more new names would be discovered by him. The noble lord had declared, that he would not wander into the mazes of metaphysics, but would draw their lordships' attention to facts. Now, what sort of facts had the noble lord mentioned? What he had stated, was one of the greatest misrepresentations ever made in that House. He had gone back some 500 or 600 years, to look into an old musty act of parliament about a horse dragging a plough by the tail. He applauded the noble lord's deep research, but did not think it would have much weight with their lordships.

PROMISSORY NOTES BILL.
The Earl of Liverpool, in moving the order of the day for the second reading of this bill, observed, that it was not his intention to enter into any statements upon this occasion; because, when he brought forward the measure relating to the Bank charter, he had put their lordships in possession of the whole system which his majesty's government thought advisable to adopt with respect to this subject. Should any doubt arise with respect to the provisions of this bill, or any objection be urged against it, he should be ready to state in explanation whatever might occur to his mind. The operation of this bill was intended to be confined to England; its object was, to extinguish the circulation of notes under 5l. He had been asked if it was intended to extend the operation of this measure to Ireland and Scotland? He had then stated, that it was the opinion of government, that the principle ought to be extended to Ireland and Scotland; allowing, however, a larger interval, with respect to time, when it was to come into operation in those parts of the empire. He now begged leave to apprise their lordships that it was his intention to move on Friday for the appointment of a committee to inquire into the present banking systems of Ireland and Scotland. He adopted this course of proceeding, not from any alteration which had taken place in his own opinion upon this subject, but from a thorough conviction that the investigation would prove
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the expediency of the application of the proposed measure to those countries.
The Earl of Carnarvonobjected to the whole of this measure; first, on account of the time at which it was introduced; next, on account of the circumstances under which it was brought forward; and thirdly, on the abstract principle, that a paper-currency founded on a metallic one was the best and the safest for the interest of this country. He also objected to it because it was intended to prevent the recurrence of such crises as that which the country had lately suffered and continued to endure, convinced as he was that it would be found wholly inoperative for that purpose. It was therefore his determination to give it a decided negative. If the measure professed to afford relief to the present distress, he should, perhaps, have hesitated before he offered any opposition to it; but when it was admitted, that it would bring no relief at present, and was hastily brought forward without inquiry, not for the purpose of meeting the existing evil, but to prevent a recurrence of it, the case was widely different. He was not for adopting measures to-day, which it might be found expedient to abandon to-morrow; and if any question brought forward under such circumstances were more calculated to produce mischief than another, it was a question affecting the currency of the country. The effect of the bill was counteracted by the principle of another measure with which it had been coupled, respecting the Bank of England. To that measure he did not object; but he felt that it strengthened his objection to the adoption of this bill at present, when the agitation which it excited in the public mind had produced the introduction of another measure before this had gone through the House. It produced the greatest effects upon the money-market at this moment. He knew, however, that that argument would be met by the observation, that the measure ought therefore to be set at rest at once. Now, he should rather say, in the present state of the money-market, let them wave all future considerations now, and apply their minds to the application of a remedy to the existing distress. But no; a different line of conduct was adopted by his majesty's government. They said they had foreseen the evils which had arrived, and therefore would apply no remedy to them. Others might do so if they pleased, and

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welcome, but they would only adopt measures for the future. Now, he thought that the members of the executive government might have done more service to the country, if they had afforded the public relief more promptly; whether they did it themselves, or induced the Bank to do it. With respect to the object of this bill, he contended, that if the thing was to be done at all, it had better be done at once; otherwise, the effect would be similar to that of the memorable adjustment, as it was called, of 1819, when they came to the resolution of paying a paper debt, according to the old standard; which, instead of being an act of justice, was one of the grossest injustice; and one, towards the country at large, of the greatest impolicy. The committee, in whose suggestions that measure originated, had laid it down, that we ought to return to a metallic currency; and now, upon the occasion of the first panic, without waiting an hour, we must forthwith have recourse to this, the most important measure that could be applied to the country. He contended, that in a commercial country like this, a metallic was not preferable to a paper currency Convertible into gold. The noble earl opposite had calculated, that not more than from 6,000,000 l. to 8,000,000 l. of gold would be necessary to replace the paper which he proposed to withdraw from circulation. Now, that calculation only applied, he believed, to England; how much, therefore, would be required for Ireland and Scotland, he could not say, but he did not think that less than ten or twelve millions would be required altogether. Whatever would be its amount, it would be considerable. Now, these seven, eight, ten, or twelve millions must be withdrawn from the productive capital of the country; and if the compound interest of that sum for the next 40 or 50 years were calculated, it would be seen what a considerable diminution would be thus produced, in what would otherwise have then been the amount of the national capital. That paper was a cheaper currency than gold, the noble earl would not contradict. Then came the question, was it as safe a one? For an answer to that question, he referred the noble earl to Scotland. It was impossible to look to the state of that country, which for forty years had no other currency than paper, without being convinced of the safety of such a
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circulation, when founded upon a proper system of banking. The present system of banks in Scotland had existed for upwards of a century. During that period, Scotland had made the greatest progress in the acquirement of wealth. What was the difference between the currencies of Scotland and England? Was it only that they had no metallic currency there? No; but they had chartered banks, while the banks of England were formed upon a very different system. No man would defend the circulation of the one and two pound notes which issued from such banks as these. He thought that ministers ought, before they adopted a measure like the present, to have recommended the Bank of England to sacrifice a portion of their privileges, and permit the formation of chartered banks within a certain distance of the metropolis. The noble earl contended, that the distress had been produced by excessive trading and speculation, originating in causes wholly unconnected with the paper currency. At the time of the South Sea bubble, we had no small paper currency. In 1783, we had no currency of 1l. and 2l. notes; and the pressure was at that period greater than the present. In 1793 the case was the same; although it was the fashion to attribute the state of the country at that time to the war. Thus it was clear that there were no grounds for imputing the present distress to the state of the existing currency. The noble earl had intimated his intention of imparting to Scotland the blessings of his proposed system; but the noble earl ought first to consider, whether it would not be better to place the currency in this country upon the same footing as that of Scotland, under which she had been exempt from all the evils which England had endured. He ought to consider whether, by tracing cause and effect he might not discover that it was that system which had so exempted Scotland from those evils, and find it a wiser measure to assimilate our own system to hers, instead of forcing upon her the application of our theory of 1819, or any theory at all. There were no grounds for presuming that a paper currency so established would not produce the same beneficial consequences here as in Scotland; and it would, therefore, be much wiser to adopt that than have recourse to another which, the moment it was introduced, had produced a degree of distress

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that obliged its authors to relax it, even pending its progress through the House. He did not know whether the Scottish banks had received any assistance from the Bank of England during the recent pressure; but whether they had been enabled to weather the storm with or without such assistance, it equally proved their stability; for if the Bank had afforded them any aid, it showed that they possessed a degree of credit which the banks in England could not obtain.—He would now allude to some circumstances connected with the currency when the small notes were not in circulation, and nothing but the "genuine currency," as it was termed, prevailed. In addition to the loss to which a man was exposed by taking bad gold, he also suffered from clipping, and sweating, and other processes, by which the value of guineas was reduced. He remembered, that when he paid away four or five guineas, they were all weighed and rung before they would be taken, and he was generally obliged to change part of them. When paper was introduced, the greatest convenience was experienced. There was no longer any necessity for weighing. If their circulation were limited in point of extent, forgery would soon be detected. The one and two pound notes of the Bank of England were liable to forgery because of their extensive circulation; but that objection did not apply to local notes. Another objection to a metallic currency was, that it produced a greater number of robberies. At the period to which he had referred, robberies were numerous. A friend of his had been robbed on the highway, another had been wounded by a shot fired at him by a footpad, and a third had narrowly escaped with his life, by seizing the muzzle of the pistol which the robber had thrust into his carriage, and wresting it out of his hand. Since the introduction of bank notes, this description of robberies had greatly diminished. The note was numbered; it had the name of the person upon it to whom it belonged, and it furnished evidence to convict the criminal. It was, in every respect, a more dangerous property to a robber than a sovereign. When the transition took place from paper to gold, every body preferred notes, for their greater convenience, to sovereigns; although we were now apt to forget all those circumstances. He was of opinion, that no case had
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been established for the substitution of a metallic currency. Noble lords said, "Let us adopt the good rule, and go back to a gold currency;" but when we had, it would not save us from such evils as the present. Another objection to this measure was, that the small notes—notwithstanding all that had been said about their having caused over-trading—had contributed much more to the upholding and propping up of the agricultural interests than to the encouraging of any wild speculations or adventures. In his opinion, a paper currency, founded on a metallic basis, was preferable to any other, and formed a circulating medium far more capable than any other of being expanded or contracted as circumstances might require. Under this system the nation had made the most rapid advances to a real and solid addition to its wealth and resources. Surely, then, it ought to be well considered, whether this bill was not calculated to check that proper spirit of enterprise and speculation which had produced these beneficial results. The noble lord here went into some calculations, for the purpose of showing that the excess of paper issues during the recent feverish period of speculations, had been much too trifling to afford any pretext for ascribing to it the present disasters; indeed, the excess in the issue of small notes had only been about a million and a half, and this was all which the present bill was calculated to get rid of. But, if the present description of paper were withdrawn, would not at least half its amount be supplied by some other description of paper? He was apprehensive that if the present bill were passed, it would be most injurious to the poorer classes, and be productive of great convulsions in the country; and that their lordships would be compelled to retrace their steps. So thinking, he felt it his duty to move, as an amendment, "that the bill be read a second time that day six months."
The Earl of Darnleysaid, he could not agree with his noble friend in thinking that this measure was likely to prove injurious to the poor. Indeed, he should give it his support, because he looked upon it as the first duty of government to protect the labouring classes from the misery to which they had lately been exposed by the stoppage of so many banks. If he could bring himself to believe that its effect would be to throw a large por-

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tion of them out of employment, he would hesitate in giving it his sanction, but being perfectly convinced that unless parliament afforded protection against such evils as they had lately experienced, they would be constantly recurring, he must give it his cordial support. His noble friend had somewhat misconceived the reason why highway robberies had become less frequent. It could not be owing to the want of a metallic currency, because, in point of fact, that species of currency had been in general use in the neighbourhood of London for these last four or five years, and scarcely an instance of highway robbery had occurred during that period. As to the argument, that the suppression of a paper currency would throw considerable difficulties in the way of mercantile transactions, it should be recollected, that in Liverpool and Manchester, a metallic currency had for some time prevailed, and had not produced any of the difficulties which were apprehended. He thought that ministers, by putting an end to the fabrication of paper money, would best do their duty to the country, and protect the interests of the poor. He wished to call to the recollection of the noble lord who had that evening presented a petition from the sister kingdom against this bill, the great distress which some years ago was caused in Ireland by the failure of the Cork and other banks. Indeed, he had been informed, that many of the poor Irish had actually died through want; for in that country there was not, any fund to which the starving poor could have recourse. He should give his vote in favour of the bill, because he considered it calculated to render a recurrence of the present evils impossible. Adverting to the commercial distress, he certainly thought, that government had proceeded on an erroneous principle in not affording relief in the manner in which it had been advantageously afforded on former occasions. If the noble earl and his colleagues had not pledged themselves in the last session, to grant no help to those whose commercial speculations might involve them in distress, an issue of Exchequer-bills would have had the effect, in a great degree, of restoring confidence.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he wished to make a few observations on what had fallen from the noble earl who had moved the amendment; but, in the first place, he was desirous to reply to some remarks from the noble earl who had just spoken.
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That noble earl seemed to think that his majesty's government had abstained from issuing Exchequer-bills, merely because they had pledged themselves last year that they would not do so. He could assure the noble earl, that they were not so strongly attached to their own opinion, as to persevere in any system which they discovered to be an injurious one. But of this he was satisfied, that his majesty's government had never effected a greater good, than by resisting the applications which had been made on that subject. If those applications had been now acceded to, upon any future occasion, when any distress had arisen, relief would have been demanded as a matter of right. He could not but regard the precedent of 1793 as one which it would have been highly impolitic to have followed in the present emergency; for the distress which now prevailed could not be said to have occurred by the hand of God. There had been no bad harvest or other similar cause; but it was allowed on all hands, that over-trading had been the primary cause of the mischief. If future ministers did their duty with like firmness, no more would be heard of Exchequer-bills being issued for the relief of private distress. He felt persuaded, that, if the relief had been afforded by government, instead of by the Bank, it would have been as different as possible in its practical effects, and that the assistance would have got into totally different hands. The secresy with which this relief would have been administered, had it proceeded from the government, was with him the principal objection. This very secresy had a manifest tendency to encourage speculation. If relief was to be given, it was desirable that the names of the applicants for it should be generally known. He had put the question to the great deputation from Manchester, whether they wished for secresy, and their answer was, no, they were ready to accept the relief in any way it might be tendered. There could be no objection to the great Bank of the country coming forward, and giving that relief which, by its charter and by-laws, it was enabled to do. If it met with any difficulty in effecting this, then let the government do what it could towards the removing of that difficulty. Besides, if government afforded this relief to one interest, it ought to afford it to all; but the proper policy was to afford it to none, except where the exigency was

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such as no human foresight could guard against. Had it been the wish of himself and his colleagues to have spent an easy session of it, nothing could be more within reach. If they had merely come forward with an issue of Exchequer-bills, they would have been hailed as the most benevolent beings, the most considerate of ministers. But instead of studying their own ease, and looking for popularity on such terms, they had, by acting up to their honest conviction, involved themselves in embarrassment; at least in parliamentary embarrassment, for such it was, as far as it went. With respect to what had fallen from the noble earl, as to the encouragement likely to be given to highwaymen by the extinction of small notes, he felt himself the more competent to approach that subject, as he had once, when a schoolboy, been attacked by a highwayman. He was very young at the time, but he remembered losing all the money he had about him. It was natural, therefore, that he should be as much alive to apprehension on that head as the noble earl. Still, with all his early associations, he was inclined to think, that the observation made by another noble earl opposite was entitled to greater weight namely, that if that was to revive with the return to a metallic currency, it would have been felt during the last four or five years; seeing that every noble lord who had travelled in the vicinity of the metropolis during that period, was in the habit of taking about with him sovereigns, and not notes. For his own part, he was inclined to attribute the almost extinction of highway robberies to the regulation introduced by him when he held the seals of the Home-office, and since improved by others; namely, the establishing a good and effective police. And although much was owing to its vigilance, he was not quite sure whether the police could effect it, were it not for the inclosure of the large commons.—As to the objection, that this bill would not have the effect of doing away with all wild speculation or over-trading, it was never imagined that those evils could be entirely remedied by this measure. It must, in order to effect this, be accompanied by other measures, one of which must be the introduction of a sounder system of banking; and although, owing to the monopoly of the Bank of England, this system could not at present be rendered as perfect as it might be after the year 1833, still that was no rea-
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son why we should not now make as much improvement in the system as it was capable of receiving under existing circumstances. The extinction of one and two pound notes would, at any rate, operate as a very considerable check upon wild and speculative projects. None of the deputations of the substantial country bankers had made any objection to the extinction of the one and two pound notes, but had declared that they would as soon be without them. But this had not been the case with the lesser bankers. To this class the small notes were a principal source of profit; consequently the present bill was calculated to do away with the lesser banks, the existence of which had a considerable effect in rendering the whole banking system suspected and insecure. It had also been objected, that the paper currency could not be withdrawn without great inconvenience. But the fact, that in London, Manchester, and through the whole of Lancashire, a metallic currency had prevailed for the last three or four years, without creating any obstruction to trade, completely refuted this objection, especially when it was considered that the Customs of London and Liverpool were three-fourths of the Customs of the whole kingdom, and that the Customs of Liverpool were equal to those of all England, with the exception of London, and that the Excise of London and Liverpool amounted to three-fifths of the Excise of the whole kingdom.—As to the objection, that the agricultural interests would be affected by this bill, he would remind their lordships, that until 1797 we had done with a metallic currency without sustaining any inconvenience; and when it was considered that we should get rid of the losses and fluctuations in the value of property which must always be attendant on a paper currency, it seemed to him that the balance of advantages preponderated much in favour of the present measure. He and his colleagues were not trying any new experiment, but simply returning to that wholesome state of things which prevailed previous to 1797; for at that period, and far many years preceding it, there was nothing but a metallic currency; and he was satisfied, that if the withdrawal of the small notes, and the introduction of a metallic circulation, did not effectually cure the existing evils, they would, at all events, have a great effect in removing them.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, he agreed

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with the noble earl, that a great distinction existed between the system of the Scottish and English banks. But it was asked, why not then adopt the former in this country, instead of calling upon the Scotch to adopt the British system? The answer given to this requisition was—"We cannot, for really we do not know enough of its details." He would give another reason, and a more forcible one; namely, that it could not so easily be imitated here; for in Scotland it was founded on the best foundation for any great establishment, namely, the practice of ages. The banking system in Scotland had the confidence of the people; and when the same could be said in an equal degree of that of England, then no change would be necessary. It was idle to talk of transplanting systems from one country to another. They all knew how valuable the British constitution was to those who lived under its influence; but endeavour to transplant it to Sicily and Corsica, and see the very different manner in which it would be received by the people. With respect to the test of experience in favour of the Scottish banks, he believed that, within the last century, no greater loss than 38,000 l. had been sustained from any accident among them. A great deal had been said, during these discussions, of the connexion between the foreign exchanges and the over-issues of paper, and much confusion prevailed upon that point. He entreated the government, when so much misunderstanding prevailed, not to seize upon so unfavourable a moment for effecting so important a change. The noble earl opposite thought, that because the course of exchange had turned against this country, it was all to be attributed to an over-issue of paper. Surely the noble earl must be aware that there were various other causes which were sufficient to produce the same result. It might be caused by the balance of trade or of payments being unfavourable to us, as well as by a depreciation of the currency. There were certain unerring marks by which it could be ascertained what the real causes were. But it should always be recollected, that the exchanges never could run against a country to a greater extent than the relative expense of the conveyance of gold from one place to the other, including, of course, the amount of agency and insurance. The exchanges had never shown a depreciation of the currency, nor could they, so long
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as the paper medium was convertible into gold. He repeated his condemnation of the time chosen by government for effecting the proposed change, believing as he did that the experiment would greatly aggravate the existing evils. As to the condition of the country banks, he thought their credit at that moment better than when the tottering banks were doing business. The bad ones had since fallen; and the effect of their stoppage would be beneficial to those that remained. He repeated his objections to the measure, and said that they applied more to the time of the alteration, than to the change itself.
The amendment was negatived, and the bill read a second time.