Sitting of 3 March 1826

SLAVERY IN THE COLONIES.
Mr. Broughamrose for the purpose of asking the hon. Secretary for the Colonies, whether any act of the legislature of St. Vincent's on the subject of improving the condition of the slaves, had recently arrived in this country, and whether it was of that character which would cause its being allowed by the government here? He was anxious that information should be given to the House on the subject of any recent advices received of the proceedings of the colonial legislatures; for, as far as he had been able to ascertain, the statement of the right hon. Secretary, for Foreign Affairs as to the course which some of those legislatures had adopted, was not borne out by the facts that had transpired in this country.
Mr. Wilmot Hortonsaid, that a bill had been received in this country which had been introduced in the colonial assembly of St. Vincent's. It had been read a second time, and ordered to be committed; and he supposed that ere now it had been passed into a law. This and all the other acts which had emanated from the colonial legislatures would be laid before the House. His right hon. friend had not stated, that in the acts of any of the colonies the whole of the points mentioned in the Orders in Council had been embraced. Many of them, had, however, been introduced.
Mr. Broughamsaid, he had no wish to impute any Intentional misstatement on the subject. He was aware that the accounts that had been received, were as yet imperfect; but undoubtedly there did ap-

1077
pear to him a discrepancy between the statement made by the Secretary for Foreign Affairs and the accounts which had yet arrived in this country. The right hon. Secretary had said, that some measures had been adopted for facilitating the manumission of slaves, where they had the means of purchasing it, that was, that a power should be given to appraise the slave without the consent of the owner, and on that appraisement that the slave should, if he could make good the sum at which he was appraised, be manumitted. Upon this point, he could not find that any measure of the exact description alluded to had been introduced by the colonial assemblies. The next point on which the House was told that an improvement had taken place, was that of the discontinuance of the whip as a badge of authority and stimulus to labour in the hands of overseers and drivers; but, upon this he could not discover that any step had been taken, except by the legislatures of St. Vincent's. The next point was the admissibility of slave-evidence. The statement of the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs on this point was, that out of twelve of the colonies which had legislatures (indeed it might be said out of thirteen, for, including Honduras, there were thirteen with local legislatures) seven had adopted measures for the admission of negro evidence. Now, what might be the contents of the papers recently received from the West Indies, he did not know; but from all the inquiries he had been able to make, and after consulting the public papers which had reached this country, detailing the proceedings of the colonies, as late as the 22nd of November last, he could learn, that only three of the islands had passed any acts for the admission of slave evidence. These were Dominica, Tobago, and Barbadoes. The act of Dominica had been passed eight years ago; so that that could not be received as evidence of any disposition of the islands to act upon the Order in Council. There we're thus only two islands which had passed any bill in accordance with the Order in Council. Tobago had passed such a measure; and to let the House see how far it entered into the spirit of the orders sent out, he would state how far it carried the principle of receiving slave evidence. The evidence of a slave was to be admitted only in the single case of murder of a slave committed by a white man, and even that admission was to be
1078
contingent, upon two circumstances; namely, that there were none other but slaves present when the crime was committed, and that the testimony of the party admitted as evidence should be corroborated by that of two slaves of un-impeached character. These regulations, and some others included in the act, rendered it so objectionable that it was disallowed by the government here; so that, for any practical good, it was worth nothing. In the act passed in Barbadoes, slave evidence was admitted, provided the witness produed a certificate of instruction in his religious duties; not, as had been most properly recommended in the instructions sent out from the government here, which admitted the certificate from the religious minister of any Christian denomination, duly licensed to preach and teach, but from the clergy of the established church only. This was the only condition on which a slave could be admitted as evidence in Barbadoes; but it was a qualification of his admissibility, involving such a mockery of justice, that the act itself was most properly disallowed by his Majesty's government. From all he had been able to learn, it appeared, that since the passing of the resolutions by the House of Commons on the 15th of May, 1823, only two islands, Tobago and Barbadoes, had passed any measure for admitting slave evidence; and these were clogged with such conditions and qualifications as caused both to be disallowed at home; so that, in fact, on that point nothing practicable had yet been done.—But it was said that eight out of thirteen of the islands had taken some steps towards giving to the slaves religious instruction, and also for their more due observance of the Sabbath. From the accounts which he had seen, he did not understand that much more had been done than had been effected by the measures adopted by government, and supported by that House, of providing and sending out a sufficient number of clergymen of the established church, for the purpose of affording religious instruction; but this was a measure for which the colonies could take no credit. As to the steps taken for a more due observance of the Sabbath, he could not see what had been done, further than the substitution of a Thursday market, for that heretofore held on the Sunday; or the enabling the slaves to work in their provision-grounds on the former day instead of the latter. It was said, that five out

1079
of the thirteen colonies had adopted measures to legalize the marriages of the negroes; but he could not discover where it was adopted, except in the Bahamas; and even there the rights of the masters might, to a certain extent, interfere. Eight of the colonies, the House was told, had adopted measures to secure the property, of the slave, so as more effectually to facilitate his manumission. Unfortunately, however, manumission was left out in the instructions sent to Demerara. This was to be regretted, as it would lead the other colonies to believe that the government were not particularly anxious on that point. In the regulations arising 6Ut of the orders sent to Trinidad, there was one defect, which extended also to alt the regulations made on the same point by the other Colonies. It was, that, though the slaves were allowed to cultivate portions of ground for their own profit, they were prohibited from the culture of any of the staple articles of colonial produce; and thus they were precluded from the only branch of industry, by the profits of which their manumission might be greatly accelerated. In the five colonies which were said to have taken steps to prevent the separation of families by sale or otherwise, Bahama Was the only one in which a practical measure had been introduced; but in Tobago the measure extended no further than preventing the mother from being separated from the child up to a certain age. That, no doubt, was good as far as it went; but it did not go far enough to justify the statement, that efficient means had been adopted in five colonies to prevent the separation of families. The House had heard, that in eight of the colonies measures, had been adopted to prevent the punishment of females. He was not aware of that being done in any island but St. Vincent's, but even there she use of the whip, as a badge of authority and a stimulus to labour, was not wholly restricted. The only one of the eight, in all of which it was said that the Use of the whip had been restricted, was Tobago; in which island the number of lashes was reduced from thirty-nine to twenty. This, no doubt, would make a great difference in the scale of human sufferings, but it did not go the length to which it ought to be carried. He thought he had said enough to satisfy the House that the statement they bad heard was not completely borne out by the facts of which they were yet in possession. However, to bring the mat-
1080
ter to an issue, he would ask the hon. Secretary for the Colonies whether he would object to returns containing the titles of all the acts passed by the colonial legislatures since May 1823, for bettering the condition of the slaves? Such a return would show at once what provisions had been made by the colonial legislatures. It would show how far the statements which, the House had heard had been borne out, by what had been really done; and what that something was for which the colonies were entitled to any praise.
Mr. Wilmot Hortonsaid, he was perfectly ready to agree to the proposition of the hon. and learned member. Nay, he would do more. He would lay upon the table a tabular statement of the different acts passed by the colonial legislatures, with their different clauses, so that the whole question might at one view be brought under the consideration of the House. It would be some time before this could be done, owing partly, to the great increase of business in the colonial department, arising out of the recent discussions respecting the slave question, and partly to the illness of the colonial counsel, which had been brought on by the severe application to the duties of his office. He must take that opportunity of stating, that the hon. member for Aberdeen, by his economy, had been chiefly instrumental in preventing the public departments from being manned in a way necessary for the efficient discharge of their duty. It would be much better, if the present system were not altered, for the House to pass a resolution to absolve the public departments from all responsibility. The colonial counsel had been employed in his office during the whole of last year, not less than ten hours a day. That was too much for any man. Unless the House would furnish him with assistance, the public business must, in a case of illness, stand still. He pledged himself, when the colonial estimates should be brought forward, to show that it was impossible that the public business could be transacted without an augmented establishment. With respect to Demerara, the court of policy of that colony deserved great praise for the readiness with which they had adopted the recommendations of the Order in Council. The hon. and learned member was mistaken when he stated, that the slaves in none of the colonies were permitted to cultivate staple commodities. They had that privilege

1081
in Demerara. He did not feel it necessary to eater into the subject at greater length until the papers were before the House. He had every reason to believe that the Order in Council would, in about a fortnight, be the substantial law in St. Lucia, the Cape of Good Hope, Berbice, and the Mauritius.
Mr. Humesaid, that though it was paying the hon. Secretary no compliment, he must declare that he had not been listening to his speech until he had roused him by accusing him of impeding the public service. He really had a right to expect a very different treatment from the hon. Secretary; for last year he had allowed an increase of 1,700 l. in the estimate for the colonial department to pass without observation. The increase was made for the purpose of giving a salary to Mr. Stephen, who was appointed colonial counsel. Nothing could be more objectionable to the colonies than such an appointment. He was the son of the person whom the colonists supposed to be their greatest enemy; and to put him in an office in which every communication to and from the colonies must pass through his hands, was highly objectionable. The appointment had outraged the feelings of the colonists more than any other act of the government.
Mr. Wilmot Hortondoubted whether the gentlemen in that House who belonged to the profession of the law would accede to the doctrine which the hon. member seemed desirous to establish; namely, that a counsel would allow his private feelings to impede the performance of his public duty. He, in his conscience, believed what he had heard Mr. Stephen himself state, that, on any subject connected with the West-Indian interests, he had never had any communication, direct or indirect, with his father. There was no man to whom, if he wished for advice or information on subjects of difficulty connected with the West Indies, he would sooner apply than Mr. Stephen. The hon. member seemed to labour under a complete mistake as to the duties of Mr. Stephen's office. He was merely an executive officer, and could originate nothing. He might state as a proof that there was no sort of understanding between the father and son, that the former had published a pamphlet in which he called the Order in Council, which was drawn up by his son, a "parcel of trash." He was glad that he had been presented
1082
with an opportunity of stating, for the satisfaction of persons connected with the West Indies, that Mr. Stephen was merely an executive officer, and could do no more than obey the instructions of the head of the department.
Mr. F. Buxtonfelt it necessary to say, that Mr. Stephen never made any communications to him. On the contrary, he generally found that gentleman so very reserved, that he preferred transacting business with the hon. secretary.
Mr. Broughamthen moved, for the "titles of acts passed by the legislatures of the slave colonies since 15th May, 1823, and containing any provisions for promoting the religious instruction of the slaves, or the better observance of the Sabbath; distinguishing the names of the colonies, the dates of the acts, the numbers of the sections in which such provisions are contained, and specifying whether the same acts had been allowed or disallowed by, or are now under the consideration of, the king in council"—Ordered.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
On the order of the day for going into a committee of supply.
Colonel Daviessaid, that, in opposing the motion for the Speaker leaving the chair, he could assure the House, he was far from being actuated by any spirit of factious opposition. Thus much he wished at the outset to claim for himself and for his party, who had always been disposed to support a system of liberal policy. He had shown that his own disposition was not unfavourable to such a system, when he, last year, withdrew his opposition to the estimates of the noble lord. But the circumstances of the country had been greatly altered since that period, and in the present crisis, when the nation was labouring under the pressure of general distress, it was the duty of every member, to see that the burthens imposed upon his constituents were as light as possible. Besides this consideration, there were objections to the condition of the army as constituted at present, which did not apply to it, when the noble lord came down with his propositions last year. If the motion with which he intended to conclude, should be agreed to, which was for a select committee to inquire into the military expenditure of the country, he had no objection to vote for a committee of supply, to grant such a sum as would

1083
suffice to carry on the operations of the present year, subject to such reductions as should afterwards appear advisable to the select committee. He saw no less objectionable mode of opposing a committee of supply. It was absolutely necessary, in his opinion, to curtail our present overgrow military establishment; and, in so saying, he did not mean to impute any peculiar blame to his majesty's ministers; for, if his own party were in power, he was sure they would pursue exactly the same course, unless they were closely watched. The gallant officer then proceeded to institute a comparison between the number of troops employed in 1822 and 1825. In the former year, the total number employed, at home and abroad, was 71,800; in 1825, 86,893. He next proceeded to shew, in minute detail, that the military forces of France were larger, in proportion, than those of England; that the British troops in Canada were nearly as numerous as the whole army of the United States, and that many reductions might be made in several colonial garrisons. He recommended that colonial corps should be raised instead of sending troops from this country, which occasioned a heavy expense. If the colonial resources were properly managed, and the pensioners on them were got rid of, he thought they might be fully available for defraying the cost of their governments. He considered that the mode in which the militia in this country was called out created a serious expense, without any real benefit to them. He adverted to the figure they made when in the field, like Falstaff's ragged regiment. Instead of the present mode, he thought that a portion of them should be called out and embodied for a longer time. The hon. member then took a short view at, the whole of our expenditure, and compared it with that of France, where forty millions covered the whole of their annual expenditure, including not only army; ordnance, navy, &c. but also payment to the clergy, the poor, the making of roads, &c. If war should break out, ministers would find themselves unprepared to meet the expenses unless they had recourse to a more economical system of expenditure, and their difficulties would be increased by the measures which they were now pursuing with respect to the currency. He concluded by moving. "That a select committee he appointed to inquire into the whole Military Expenditure of the country."
Lord Palmertonsaid he would not follow the hon. gentleman through the various statements into which he had entered. He did not think he had assigned any sufficient reason for the appointment of a select committee. The only ground stated for the motion was, that the committee might inquire into the military expenditure. Now, the usual course was, to discuss the various items in a committee of the whole House, when there was a sufficient opportunity of fully considering every point. He must therefore oppose the amendment, and the hon. member must forgive him for not replying at present to his observations.
The amendment was negatived, and the House having resolved itself into the committee, to which the Army Estimates were referred.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, he felt convinced that all who had heard the motion of the hon. member for Worcester would have supposed, that the estimates of the army to be proposed to the House, contained some remarkable increase over those which had been voted in the preceding years. The fact, however, was, that the estimates which he was about to submit to the committee, were the same as those of the last year, with the addition only of three hundred men, constituting three companies, for the service of the colony of Newfoundland, and to be paid for by the inhabitants of that settlement. The total increase upon the estimates was only 126,586 l. 4s. 8d. of which 84,000 l. arose from the circumstance of the change that had taken place in the currency of Ireland; and the remainder, amounting to 42,000 l. arose from the circumstance of certain items in the preceding estimates being charged only for the three last quarters of the year, commencing in April, whereas, in the present estimates, the items were charged for the whole year. In the first class of the present estimates, which comprised all the active establishments of our military force, consisting of the staff, the yeomanry, the medical staff, and every other description of efficient force, there was a total increase above the last year of 104,257 l. 2d. arising from the two causes to which he had already alluded. The increase of charge upon the land forces1 was 194,559 l. 5s. 1d.; upon the staff there was a total increase of 2,620 l. 3s. 11 d. off which 1,000 l. arose from the change of the currency of Ireland; and the remaining sum of 1,620 l. arose from an augmentation

1085
of the medical staff, employed upon the coast of Africa. There was a diminution of expense upon the medical staff at home, both in England and Ireland, of 941 l. 1s. 11 d. In the public department over which he presided, the War-office, there was adiminution of expense to the amount of 947 l. 5s. 5d. With reference to that branch of the department whose duty it was to examine the arrears of accounts, he was happy to say, that considerable progress had been made in bringing up the arrears. He was aware that great reductions might be made in this branch of the service, and he could assure the House that they should be carried into effect, to the greatest possible extent, as soon as the object could be attained consistently with the interests of the public service. In the medical department, there was a diminution of 941 l. 1s. 11 d. which arose from the conversion of the Royal Military Infirmary into an hospital. If this arrangement had not been made, there would have been an increase of 1,000 l. to the estimates of the present year. He should now come to the volunteer force. In this service there was an increase amounting to 8,966 l. 4s. 6d. This augmentation of expense over the charge of last year arose from the circumstance, that it was expected that most of the yeomanry force would be on permanent duty, during the present year, and which was not the case in the year just terminated. This was the sole reason for the increase of expense; for, as to the number of men, there had been a diminution to the extent of eight hundred; and a saving also had been effected, under the head of contingent allowances. But it had, been thought necessary that an increase of allowance should hereafter be made to the men composing the remaining corps, during the time they should be called out on permanent duty. This allowance would extend only to the privates and non-commissioned officers. The former allowance had been at the rate of 5s. a day, foreman and horse; and when it was considered that the men were usually, assembled for only a few days at a time, it would be easily conceived that they had not the opportunities, of making such economical and advantageous arrangements, as soldiers who were stationed for any long or certain period in one neighbourhood. The House, he conceived, would agree with him, that, under these circumstances, the former rate of allowance, of five shillings a day was inade-
1086
quate. The present proposal was, to augment the allowance by two shillings a day, making the total allowance to the private and non-commissioned officers of yeomanry corps amount to seven shillings per diem, whilst they were on actual duty. This increase of allowance would augment this branch of the estimates by 8,966 l. 4s. 6d. He would not advert to the second class of Indian expenditure, but would proceed to the third class, on which there was an augmentation to the extent of 23,731 l. First, there was an increase under the head of pay of staff officers, to the extent of 5,341 l. 3s. 9d. partly arising from the change in the value of the Irish currency. The expenses of the Royal Military College were the same as last year. In the charge for garrisons there was no material variation, and in the charge of full pay for reduced, retired, and unattached officers, there was a diminution of 7,500 l. occasioned by casualties, and which would have been 500 l. more, but for the change that had been made in the Irish currency. There was also a diminution on the charge of half-pay and reduced allowances to officers of foreign corps of 2,414 l. The next head of service was the estimate of the charge on account of the in-pensioners of Chelsea hospital, and in this service there was an increase of 301 l. 11 d. In the estimate of the charge of the out-pensioners, there was an increase of 44,653 l. 5d. in consequence of additional expenses incurred under the head of casualties. The estimate of the charge of the Royal Military Asylum was pretty nearly the same as that of the preceding year. Under the head of widow's pensions, there was an increase of 6,670 l. 6d. The next item in the estimates was the compassionate list, and allowances to officers fox wounds. Under this head there was an increase of 4,190 l. of which 500 l. arose from the difference made in the Irish currency. Oh the superannuation, or retired allowance account, there was a diminution of charge, amounting to 1,759 l. 14 s. 1d. The amount of Exchequer fees continued the same. On the account of the three royal veteran battalions, there was a diminution of 3,958 l. 3s. 3d. The estimates for the corps were calculated to the 24th of March only, as, in the course of the ensuing month of April, it was intended that they should be disbanded.—He had now gone through the estimates, taking each head of expenditure seriatim, and had only to advert to the total amount of the charges

1087
for the army for the present year, as compared with the amount of the same head of national service for the year 1825. The vote for the army for the year, from the, 25th Dec. 1824, to the 24th Dec. 1825, was for the support of 76,345 men; the estimates for the present year, ending 24th Dec. 1826, were for 76,572 men. The total of the estimates for the year 1825, was 6,475, 547 l. 12 s. 4d.; for the present year the amount was 6,602,133 l. 17 s., making a total increase for the present year of 126,586 l. 4s. 8d. The number of land forces had been increased last session, not only with the general concurrence of the House, but with the particular assent of the hon. member for Worcester himself (colonel Davies); and he was, therefore, surprised at the hon. member's opposing the going into a committee, on the ground of unnecessary and extravagant expenditure, and of an improper number of forces. The only criterion by which the House could judge what forces ought to be kept up at the present period, was the exigencies of the service at the period for which they were required, and not the necessities that might have existed in 1792, or at any antecedent period. The colonial service of the country required a large force in actual employ, and the government were bound to take into consideration the necessity of having a disposable reserve. The exercising of the forces was necessary for a constant relief. Thus the troops were constantly prepared, and in a fit condition to be sent on service as the exigences of the case might require. The hon. member for Worcester had stated, that the colonial garrisons were too great; but it would be impossible to dispense with much of the regular army, by substituting regular, regiments instead of garrisons. If forces were commissioned for general service, it would be difficult or impossible to get men to serve in perpetual banishment in the colonies, at the same rate at which those were paid who took the chance of the service generally. Thus the expense would, in either case, be the same. But the effect of confining bodies of troops in colonies would be, to make them of an inferior description. By the present system, the troops had the benefit of general inspection, of diversified service, and of experience. By confining particular bodies of troops to particular colonies, they would lose these advantages, and become inadequate to the defence even of the posts intrusted to their pro-
1088
tection.—The House must see that the change recommended by the hon. member in the effective force of the country, would be attended with no advantage. If we were to depend upon the militia, we might drill them, but we must have a change every year. We should have, in fact, a sort of infant army, which, ere it was fully weaned from its mother, would have to be replaced by another. It had been urged, that our colonial establishments were too large, and our settlements in North America, in particular, were pointed out as greater than they ought to be. But his hon. friend, the secretary for the colonies, was so much more competent to speak to this part of the subject than he could pretend to be, that he would leave it to him to answer this part of the hon. member's argument. The only other instance to which the hon. member alluded, was rather an unfortunate one for his argument. He stated, that we had by far too large a garrison at Gibraltar. In answer to that observation, he begged to refer to the hon. and gallant officer over the way (sir R. Wilson) who last year stated, that the garrison there was not more than sufficient, and expressed his regret, that a greater force was not employed upon that station. He should not follow the hon. member through his reviewal of the finance systems of France and America, because it was a proceeding which did not go very directly to the subject before the House; but there was one position taken up in the course of it, the truth of which he felt himself bound to deny. The hon. member had said, that it was an additional reason why we ought to make every practicable reduction, because we were now about to return to a metallic currency, and to act upon the principles of free trade. Now, as far as he understood our object in going back to a metallic currency, it was to avoid the recurrence of those distresses into which the departure from that system had, from time to time, unhappily plunged us; and our adoption of the principles of free trade was not a course which would render the country poor, and unable to bear expense, but a course which had been resolved upon from a conviction of its superior profitableness and expediency. The noble lord sat down with moving, "That a number of land forces not exceeding 87,240 men, (exclusive of the men belonging to the regiments employed in the territorial possessions of the

1089
East India Company) commissioned and non-commissioned officers included, be maintained for the service of the United kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the 25th Dec. 1825, to the 24th Dec. 1826."
Lord Miltonsaid, that he did not feel himself placed in the situation of the hon. colonel behind him, with respect to the army estimates of this year; for last year he had voted against the estimates, and was in a minority of eight upon that occasion. Therefore his noble friend over the way could not retort upon him that he was pledged to the present estimates because of his vote of last year. The objections which he entertained against the noble lord's resolutions were of a nature to prevent him from entering into detail —he objected to them altogether as founded upon an erroneous view of the interests of the country; and he was the more confirmed in that opinion by the latter part of the speech of the noble lord, in which he had endeavoured to divert the attention of the House from looking back to the principles of policy by which, in former times, the country had been regulated. He saw clearly from that speech, that the military spirit of the government—or, more properly speaking, its disposition for keeping up a large military establishment—was far from being so subdued as, for the safety and happiness of the country, it ought to be. The latter part of the noble lord's Speech showed clearly that, in the opinion of the higher authorities of this country, our security depended upon the maintenance of a large military force. Now, he was quite unconvinced that there was the least necessity for any larger establishment than the country, in former years, had been in the habit of maintaining. If our colonies had increased in one part of the world, in another part they had been diminished; because, within the last fifty years, we had lost the whole of North America? His majesty's ministers, in bringing forward the estimates, were not aware of the situation in which they placed the country. The necessary effect of such a large expenditure must be, to reduce the pecuniary resources of the country. And, if they still persisted in maintaining a large military establishment let them recollect what they said in 1816. In that year, 100,000 l. extra was demanded upon special grounds. In 1822 the estimates were increased in the
1090
sum of 69,000 l. beyond 1820. In 1825, our prosperity was said to increase; and now, in 1826, the increase beyond last year was 126,000 l. His complaint was, that ministers, in a time of peace and tranquillity, had gone on increasing our military expenditure. If the sum granted in 1822 was sufficient, why ask more for the year 1826? And if the sum now demanded was absolutely necessary, how could ministers account for the deficiency of their demand in 1822? The fact was this—the landed interest was distressed in 1822, and he would venture to predict that they would be equally distressed in 1827. It was the duty of ministers, therefore, to conciliate the country by diminishing the public expenditure in such a manner as to enable us to meet the distresses which must come in 1827. But, though he had no intention of going into details, there was one point of the noble lord's speech, which he could not help adverting to. The noble lord had said, that the allowance of 5s. per day was not sufficient pay for the yeomanry, and that he was going to raise the sum to 7s. per day. Now, talking of shillings, the same appeared small; but when he considered that the pay of the whole of the yeomanry was to be augmented nearly one-half, the amount became of more importance. For his part, he thought that the yeomanry might be done away with altogether! as the time was gone by when such a species of force could be rendered serviceable. And they were now kept up solely for the purpose of gratifying a few individuals. To his knowledge they were kept up in one county with that view, and his right hon. friend opposite was aware of the existence of the corps to which he alluded; but the country was so perfectly tranquil, as to render their presence not at all necessary. It appeared to him, that, upon this head alone they might save 130,000 l. a year. Again there were the yeomanry corps of Ireland; a body who, he would venture to say, were not only useless but mischievous. He would only say, that ministers were wrong in placing their reliance upon a large standing army. He would tell them, that if the army of the country were to be reduced to 20,000 men, they would find that the weakness of the country would not be found in the smallness of that force, but in the condition of our Stock Exchange. There it was that the weakness of the country was to be found.

1091
What effects the recent measures adopted by ministers might produce in that quarter he could not pretend to say. They had entered into a negotiation with the Bank, in order to induce that body to advance large sums to the public; but the country did not want money, it wanted confidence, and ministers had done every thing but take measures to restore that confidence. The promulgation of the correspondence between ministers and the Bank, was the cause of much of the distress which had since taken place. They were misinformed when they stated that the panic had subsided. They would have found, if they inquired, that it continued to rage to a great degree, and the publication of that correspondence had greatly increased it. With respect to the estimates, he thought that, for the last three years, they had been framed upon the most extravagant basis. The time would come, and sooner perhaps than the country gentlemen were aware, when the military spirit now predominant would be considerably subdued.
Mr. Humesaid, that the present situation of the country required that the most serious attention of parliament should be directed to the estimates for this year. They were now called upon to vote the first of those estimates, and the question to be considered was—was the country in a situation to pay that sum? It was very well for the noble Secretary at War to say that we were called upon to make no great increase upon the estimates of last year. But, we had gone on increasing our army expenditure, so gradually, but certainly, from year to year, that even the noble lord himself did not appear sensible of the enormous increase this year, as compared with former years. But the House ought to check this ruinous course of expenditure. Our army, navy, ordnance, and civil estimates, ought to be revised; and, in his view of the case, the whole might be reduced one half. If the House would consider for a moment to what ruinous results this enormous expenditure must lead, those who were called the representatives of the people would not vote for such large establishments as were now called for by ministers. Before they voted these estimates, they ought seriously to consider how much was absolutely necessary to carry on the establishments of the country; and he was aware that he should be charged with arrogance for endeavouring to point out
1092
these establishments and the sums necessary to support them. No doubt, those whose duty it was, were the fittest persons to point out such matters. But they did not do so. On the contrary, he found that the army, navy, and ordnance estimates of this year were greater than those of last year. And he would ask, whether such a state of things ought to be, now that we were in the eleventh year of peace, and had a prospect of its continuance for a long time, if we chose? Surely, one great cause of our keeping up a standing army was at an end. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Canning), since his accession to his high and important office, had, much to his honour, separated this country from that falsely-called Holy Alliance—from that body of despots, whose policy it was, to maintain large military bodies, in order to check and crush the growth of civil liberty, and encourage and protect their exercise of arbitrary power. We had, during the administration of the right hon. gentleman's predecessor, adopted this policy to a certain extent, and it was the bane of this country. But we were now separated from those continental powers, and why should we continue to adopt their policy? It appeared to him that the present system was supported chiefly by those who were maintained by, and who participated in, the spoils of the taxes, in the shape of pensions, places, &c. If those persons were called to pay these taxes, without participating in them, they would express in that House a very different opinion. They were at once the cause and effect of supporting the present large establishments; they supported them because it furnished them with places, pensions, and other emoluments; and these, in return, rendered a great expenditure necessary. Was it not monstrous to think, that we had now 27,000 officers upon retired, full, and half-pay? This was a number of individuals nearly equal to the whole amount of our army some years ago. Between 1785 and 1793, we had no more than 36,000 men, including those required for the defence of our colonies, in all. The military mania which prevailed in the country some time ago had not yet subsided; and, in order to give it countenance and support, taxes were imposed upon the industry, nay, the necessities of the people. The amount of taxes paid by the higher classes bore no proportion to what fell upon the middling

1093
and lower orders of society. He would take, for instance, the assessed taxes, not one-third of which were paid by the higher classes; and what they did pay they received back in the shape of pay, pensions, and allowances of various descriptions. This grinding system served only to demoralize the people; and he would ask, were they prepared to say, that such a system ought to go on?
Having said thus much, by way of apology for what he was going to say, he begged to call the attention of the committee to the subject more immediately before them. He maintained that, before they proceeded further, it was their duty to appoint a committee, to inquire into every department of our revenue expenditure. In 1822, a finance committee was appointed; and what did they do? They did not confine themselves to 1822, or to any particular year, but went back to 1792, and clearly demonstrated that that period and 1816 were perfectly parallel. The noble lord said, it was perfectly ridiculous to go back to 1792. He dared to say, that the noble lord, and those who supported him, were of that opinion; but did those who paid the noble lord and his colleagues and supporters think so? The number of petitions presented to the House shewed that they did not. Those petitions, numerous as they were, would, ere long, be increased, so strong was the feeling of the country on the subject. It was impossible, without a breach of faith, to touch the 28 millions interest of the national debt; but the other 27 millions of expenditure, might be greatly reduced. For instance, the noble lord's salary of 4,000 l. a-year might be reduced one-half, the salaries of all the other public officers might be reduced in proportion, and yet the parties would be sufficiently provided for. If that were done, he was quite satisfied, that, in the course of eighteen months, taxes might be reduced to the extent of twelve millions, affording to the country a most acceptable and just relief.
Following the labours of that committee, he would examine what steps it took; and first of all, it would be found that they drew a comparison between the years 1792 and 1821. The comparative situation of the country at those periods, was as follows:—In 1792, the whole expense of the army in Great Britain and Ireland, was only 2,830,000 l. The charge for the Ordnance, for which alone 1,200,000 l. were now required, was then only
1094
440,000 l.; the navy cost under two millions; so that the whole expense of the various establishments was 4,700,000 l. while the country, in the present year, was loaded with four times that charge. He saw nothing in the state of the kingdom to warrant such an extraordinary augmentation; and if five millions more than was necessary could be exacted from the people, it only shewed, if reductions were duly made, how easy it would be, at any future period, by making appeals to the nation when they were unavoidable, to place it in the commanding station which it ought to hold among the powers of Europe. He really believed that the committee was not aware of what it was called upon to vote. The finance committee took a view of the condition of the country from 1785 to 1792; and he begged the House to observe, that during that whole period of peace, the average number of troops never exceeded 36,000 men; and in 1785, 1786, 1787, and 1788, they were only 30,000. The average of the five years previous to 1792, was 33,000 men, and no more. The disembodied militia was also 33,000; yet the noble lord had not scrupled that night to call upon the committee to pass a vote for a regular army of not less than 86,764 men. The noble lord, indeed, had called it 76,000, but he had taken only rank and file, without adding the officers, who, as they were employed, must also be paid. The whole military establishment of the country in 1792, including 53,000 regular troops, and 33,000 disembodied militia, did not, in fact, exceed the number of troops now required for the standing army of the kingdom. To the 86,764 were, besides, to be added 8,446 men for the royal artillery, including engineers, 9,000 marines, three-fourths of whom were available for land service, making a total of 104,210 regular troops; which, in the eleventh year of peace, the people, in their present distress, were called upon to maintain, and when the king, in his Speech at the opening of the session, assured the parliament that, among all his neighbours, there was every disposition to preserve peace and amity!
But this was not all, for he had hitherto only spoken of the regular army, and the militia for Great Britain was 55,000, and for Ireland 22,000 men, making together 77,000, towards which the country was called upon to pay 500,000 l. The yeomanry, by the last return, in Great Bri-

1095
tain and Ireland, were 74,000 men, and the expanse 53,000 l., being a large increase beyond the last year. The forces at Ceylon and the Cape amounted to 4,000 or 5,000 men, and the grand total of the military establishment not less than 259,000 men, ready to be called into service on any emergency. Deducting from this number the militia and regular troops in 1792, of 86,000, there would be a positive increase of 173,000 men between 1792 and 1826. He appealed to the committee, whether such a state of things was in accordance with the recommendation of the finance committee of 1817? Before he read an extract from that document, he entreated gentlemen to attend to the distinguished men by whom it was prepared; they were, the late lord Londonderry, Mr. Bankes, Mr. Tierney, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Baring, Mr. Wilbraham, sir J. Newport, Mr. Peel, Mr. H. Davies, sir G. Clerk, Mr. Huskisson, Mr. Tremaine, Mr. N. Calvert, Mr. D. Gilbert, Mr. Holford, Mr. Gooch, and sir T. Acland. If it were necessary to re-appoint a finance committee, more proper individuals could not be named; they merited the utmost confidence; and they sat for nearly two years, and made seven reports, regarding the army, navy, ordnance, pensions, sinecures, and the general income and expenditure of the empire. Three or four of the committee were now distinguished members of the councils of his majesty; and thus having power to enforce the re-commendations of the committee, he called upon them to look back to the work of their own hands, and to act in consistency with it. The words of the report were these:—
"Your Committee, in making reference to the year 1792, desire to call the notice of the House to the low establishments of the latter part of that year, which were deemed sufficient for all national purposes at that time, in the contemplation of a long continuance of peace; and, although many circumstances are materially changed by events which have subsequently taken place, so as to prevent any exact parallel from being drawn between the two cases, especially in the amount of pecuniary charge, yet they submit, that as near an approximation to that low scale of establishment and expense as may be found consistent with our more extended possessions, and with the augmented rates of Various fixed disbursements, would be highly advantageous in relieving the bur-
1096
thens, and in supporting the public credit of the country."
Now he wished to know whether the price of stores, and of various articles connected with our military establishment, had not been very much reduced? It could not be denied, that the price had fallen greatly; and therefore it was clear, that if the scale of our military establishment was placed on its proper footing, a great saving might be effected for the country. What had taken place since 1817, to prevent such a reduction from being made? Those who were members of the House at that period, must recollect the speech of the noble lord (Castle-reagh) which held out the most flattering hopes of a reduction of the national expenditure. The noble lord then observed, that the reduced establishment at which they had arrived, was not near so low as might be expected in the course of a few years; but, after the changes that had taken place—after the long war in which the country had been engaged—it was impossible to arrive at them at once. After a few years of peace, they would, of course, be brought forward. The House, at that time, went with the noble lord; but the committee went further; calculating that, in the course of a few years, the country would be relieved from a large portion of expense. He would shew, before he sat down, how, under the present system, the people had been completely deceived in the reasonable expectations held out by the committee. He should prove how all the pensions, all the fixed establishments, in short, every item of charge, instead of decreasing, had been annually increased, since the date when, the delusive promise was held out. He did not blame the noble lord opposite on account of these estimates. He was the only organ employed to lay them before the House; and the censure ought to fall, not on him, but on his majesty's ministers, who agreed that so immense a force should be kept up. By subjecting the country now to such enormous expenses, they would be placed in this situation—that should war arrive, they would be unable to make those great exertions which they had done on other occasions. It had been stated, with very great truth, that it was only by the force of her financial exertions, that this country had been able to struggle through the war, and to overcome the manifold difficulties which were opposed to her. It was therefore the duty of the

1097
House to watch over those finances with extreme jealousy; for it must be obvious to all, that if the government went on crippling the resources of the empire as they were doing at present, England must cease to have that commanding influence as a nation, which she had so long and so justly possessed. The committee of 1817 stated, in their second report, that it was only by adhering to a rigid system of retrenchment and economy during peace, that this country would be enabled successfully to encounter a period of warfare, should circumstances render it necessary that recourse should be had to hostilities; and therefore they recommended the utmost economy in all disbursements of the public money, as essentially necessary to the Substantial benefit of the country. Indeed, every part of the different reports of the committee was directed to the same object. In every sentence they pressed on the House as powerfully as they could do, the necessity of bringing down the military establishment as nearly as possible to the standard of 1792. The noble lord had drawn the attention of the House to the estimate of last year; and his gallant friend (col. Davies) had very properly observed, that it was not fair in the noble lord to confine his view to the last year's estimate, instead of going back to that period when the House peremptorily called on ministers to cut down the expenses of the country. This was done in 1821, when distress bore heavy on the country, as it did at present; though it did not weigh quite so heavy at this moment on the landed proprietors as he thought it would do in the course of a few months. At that period the noble member for Yorkshire gave the landed proprietors a little good advice, but they would not take it; and they pursued the most absurd course that any set of men ever adopted. When attempts were made at that time, to bring down those establishments to their proper scale, the country gentlemen refused to give their assistance in effecting that desirable object. They voted for the continuance of those extravagant establishments; and then, with the most extraordinary inconsistency, they turned round, and called for the reduction of those very establishments in favour of which they had previously raised their voices. The estimate which the noble lord now presented amounted exactly to within 41,000 l. of that which he submitted to the House in 1821. The
1098
estimate for this year was, 6,602,133 l.; for l821, it was 6,643,000 l. But what, notwithstanding the opposition of the country gentlemen, did the House do that session? On the 27th of June they unanimously voted an address to his majesty, praying "That his majesty will be graciously pleased to direct, that every possible saving which can be made without detriment to the public interest, shall be effected in those more extended establishments which the country is obliged to maintain for the safety and defence of the United Kingdom and its dependencies; and more especially in the military expenditure, by a reduction in the numbers of the army, and by a constant and vigilant superintendance over that and all the other departments connected with the application of the ample supplies granted by this House." This was an amendment to a motion of his own, in substance the same, moved by Mr. Bankes. Ministers had, to the last moment, resisted every attempt at retrenchment, until, at the close of the session, the pressure of distress was so great, that the country gentlemen turned round and said, that something should be done. Ministers then yielded, but with a bad grace, merely to relieve themselves from the disagreeable situation in which they would have been placed, had his motion been carried, as it certainly would in spite of them, if the sense of the House had been taken on it. They got the hon. member whom he had just mentioned, to move an amendment in effect the same as the original motion, which was unanimously carried. What was the result of that unanimous address? —an immediate reduction in the army, and that, notwithstanding the noble lord, then the ministerial leader in that House, having said, a few months before, that they could not carry on the service of the country, if the wheels of government were clogged by any reduction. A reduction, however, in every department soon took place, and the following year, in the army, navy, and ordnance, there was a reduction of a million and a half. In 1821, the army amounted to 81,100 men —the expense of which was 6,643,968 l. The next year it was 61,820 men, making a reduction, in one year, of nearly 20,000 men. This number was then sufficient for all the services of the country, and why not to-day? The expense in 1822 was 6,103,069 l. making a difference of expenditure for the army alone, between

1099
the two years, of more than 500,000 l. besides the commissariat, building of barracks, and ail the other incidental expenses which attend the maintenance of an army. In 1828, the army was 59,100, the estimates for which were 6,087,398 l. Unfortunately, about this period, the price of corn advanced, affairs wore a more cheerful aspect, the poor were better employed, and ministers did not lose the opportunity of augmenting the military establishments. Year after year, since then, the numbers had been swelled, and the expense increased; in 1824, the number of men was 73,000, and in 1825, 86,438. He entreated the committee to attend to the reasons assigned for this enormous addition. The principal reason which had induced hon. gentlemen to vote for the estimates was the then condition of Ireland, and the state of some of our colonies; but, he believed, that, of the troops destined to proceed thither, not one-fifth had been actually sent out. The effect, therefore, was, that the standing force in the country was considerably enlarged, and with a militia, to the amount he had already stated. As to Ireland, it was no longer pretended that any additional troops were rendered necessary by her condition. The precise state of the present establishment, then, was as follows:—32,670 men were to remain in Great Britain, and 32,194 men in the colonies, being an increase of nearly 4,000 men. The force in Ireland was to consist of 21,900 men. If, however, in 1792, an army of 17,000 men was deemed adequate to the service of Great Britain, what possible reason could be urged for now raising the force to nearly doable that amount? Besides, it ought to be recollected, that at the present moment the. militia and the yeomanry corps were much larger than in 1792.
It had been stated three years ago, by the chancellor of the Exchequer, that it was necessary to keep a counterpoise to the increasing power of the people; that the influence of the Crown ought not to be decreased, because it formed a wholesome check to the influence of the people. If, however, ministers would diminish taxation; and, by relieving oppressive burthens, make all classes contented, they would find no such check necessary. A larger standing army was only required because government was resolved to do nothing to conciliate the great body of the nation. Hence it was that the people were to be controlled and over-
1100
awed by a military power, daily swelled in proportion as the public grievances were aggravated. The existing enormous amount of taxation was a great and crying evil; and, in order to remedy it, it was only necessary to lessen the expense of the publicestablishments.—After noticing cursorily the sinking fund, as it was termed, but which added only to the general weight which the nation had to sustain, the hon. member asserted, that taxes to the extent of four or five millions might be abolished, without detriment or inconvenience. The relief thus given would be felt by high and low, rich and poor; and those only would be injured whose emoluments depended upon maintaining the existing system upon its present extravagant scale. He could contemplate nothing more grateful to the ministers of a great and free country, than the task of dispensing such important benefits. At present, the government was restrained in its operations by being, as it were, screwed up between income and expenditure, because the account was so nicely balanced by their anxiety to spend, and the desire of parliament to control. To remove taxes liberally would set ministers free, and make the people happy. He was anxious to press upon the committee the necessity for economy, because the establishments now were as large as they were in 1822; when the House had voted unanimously that they ought to be reduced; and it could not be pretended that there was any such change in the external or internal circumstances of the country, as to warrant now what had been condemned. He would not now enter into any details respecting the items, which could be discussed as they proceeded. In the speeches from the Throne, attention to economy had been pressed almost ridiculously; for he could apply to it no other epithet, when, year after year, the House was told that retrenchment would be attempted, and the only result was, that year after year the estimates were increased. It was fit that the House of Commons, disregarding mere Words, should, by its actions, show that it was in earnest, and compel ministers to give relief to a patient and long-suffering people. He could not employ on this subject more forcible or more appropriate expressions than those of the finance committee of 1817, and be had therefore adopted them in the amendment which he now offered to the resolution of the noble lord. It was in these terms:—

1101
"That in the opinion of this committee, it is expedient, in the present circumstances of the country, to make a large reduction in the amount of the expenditure for the military establishment, and to approximate, as soon and as nearly as possible, to the establishment of the year 1792, as recommended by the Finance committee of 1817, and in their second report, in the following words:—."Your committee, in making a reference to the year 1792, desire to call the notice of the House to the low establishments of the latter part of that year, which were deemed sufficient for all national purposes at that time, in the contemplation of a long continuance of peace; and, although many circumstances are materially changed by events which have subsequently taken place, so as to prevent any exact parallel from being drawn between the two cases, especially in the amount of pecuniary charge, yet they submit, that as near an approximation to that low scale of establishment and expense as may be found consistent with our more extended possessions) and with the augmented rates of various fixed disbursements, would be highly advantageous in relieving the burthens and in supporting the public credit of the country."
Lord Palmerstonsaid, that if the committee concurred in the amendment, the lion, gentleman would not be at all nearer the attainment of his object, because it went only to the adoption of the recommendation of the committee of Finance of 1817, to approximate as nearly to the estimates of 1792, as might be "consistent with our more extended possessions, and the augmented rates of the various fixed disbursements." The whole question therefore was, whether there had been such an approximation, and he was prepared to contend, that the resolutions he had to propose were framed with every due regard to economy, and adapted to the existing circumstances of the country. In considering this point the fair criterion to judge by was not the mere point which had been so much relied on by the hon. member; namely, that the country was now, as in 1792, in a state of profound peace. They must, in coming to a decision, look to the present circumstances of the country; and he had contended, that, considering those circumstances, the existing military establishment was not too great. If that argument were of any force—if his reasoning were
1102
just and sound—then it followed, that ministers had acquiesced in the recommendation contained in the resolution of the hon. member. The hon. member had made the report of the committee of 1817 a very convenient instrument of debate. He had used it, on all occasions, as best suited his purpose; and he had not always treated that committee with the respect and deference which he had displayed on the present occasion. If the hon. member would take the trouble of looking at what that committee had estimated as the probable prospective expense of the military department, he would find, that the amount now called for fell considerably short of that estimate. In the report, 8,500,000 l. was set forth as the prospective expense, including 300,000 l. for the expense of the militia. The hon. gentleman had repeatedly stated, that, if his recommendations had been attended to, government would by this time have reduced the expenses of all the establishments full one half. Now, if the House would look at the whole of these estimates, they would see that about one half of the charges were ascribable to the effective part of the establishment; the other half to the liquidation of half-pay, pensions, and other charges, which were of a nature not in any way liable to reduction, even by the plan of the hon. gentleman. If, therefore, the hon. gentleman's design of a reduction of one-half were seriously entertained, he would cut off the whole of the efficient part of the establishment. The House would see how accurate and safe a guide, they had in the hon. gentleman. Of course, he was aware in how superior a situation the hon. member stood in addressing the House on this occasion. He had at his ready service the general topics of declamation,—the expediency of reducing the taxation of the country— the dangers of a standing army—the prevalence of a military spirit in the government—and the burthen of large and unnecessary establishments. But, he appealed to the House if government had not since the peace, by repeated reductions of taxation, shown an earnest desire to relieve the country from its burthens, and to put the establishments on a reasonable and effective footing. As to displaying too much of a military spirit— a charge which had been repeatedly urged against the government—for himself, and for those with whom he acted, he totally disclaimed it. He was sensible that there

1103
was nothing so absurd, so ill-judged, and so inconvenient for the government, as well as being grievous to the country, as large and unnecessary military establishments kept up in time of peace. It was not only bad economy as it regarded the public treasure, but it answered no purpose of political strength and security; and, in a military sense, for the preservation and maintenance of an effective service and sound discipline, it was notoriously defective. He was no advocate for large military establishments in time of profound peace. He stood there only to advise with the House upon that establishment which he considered as the best suited to the dignity of the country, and the necessities of the empire. He would just give one instance of the effects of too rapid a reduction of our forces. In 1821, the government, in compliance with the wishes of parliament, effected a considerable reduction of the establishment. What was the consequence? There immediately occurred an urgent necessity for a great increase in the colonial service. Great embarrassments were experienced by government and, at last, after trying for three or four years, they found it necessary to come to parliament for an augmentation of the forces. Last year he had stated in his place, that this augmentation was not wanted for any purpose at home—not for coercing the population — not for oppressing Ireland, but for colonial purposes. On that ground, and on no other, he now asked for this vote. He had explained before, that the additional force was required for reliefs on foreign stations in the first place; in the second place, to form a reserve at home, from which reinforcements might be sent to distant places, without stripping the country of its ordinary portion of defence. The hon. gentleman had said, that he would be content if it could be shown that the augmentation was employed for the purposes of the colonies; but the complaint of the hon. gentleman was, that the increase of force at home was large, while it was inconsiderable in the colonies. Now, to prove to the House that government had used no unfair pretence about the employment of these troops, in 1825, of each regiment consisting of ten companies, six went out to foreign service, and four came back. The House would observe, that not only was there an augmentation, but that there was an entirely new organization effected in
1104
the course of last year. Each regiment before that time went abroad in a body. By the new organization, out of each regiment often companies, four were left at home to recruit, and six went on foreign stations. He had formerly explained the advantages of modelling the army in that manner. The effect of this new organization was, that scarcely any but non-effectives were left at home, as these reserve companies consisted chiefly of recruits, invalids, and men who had come home for the purpose of being discharged. Now, as the casualties abroad were filled up regularly, it followed that scarcely any but non-effectives were left at home; so that of 8,000 men of these reserved companies, it would very seldom happen, that there were less than 6,000 non-effectives on the establishment at home. The augmentation then granted by parliament had fully answered the purpose, and had been applied as the government had undertaken to apply it. He did not suppose that any gentleman would assume it as the ground of his argument, that the colonial service ought to be a perfect banishment of officers and men — that they should be compelled to pass the whole of their lives in tropical climes, or in other places equally unfavourable to their health. Yet such was the effect of the former method. In the East-Indies, there were eight regiments, which had been stationed there for nineteen years, without relief. There was one regiment at Ceylon, and another at the Mauritius, which had not been home for twenty-one years. Nor had the government been enabled yet to provide for their return, notwithstanding all their efforts to relieve them. If the number of forces were to be diminished, that relief would be impossible. The tendency of such a resolution on the part of the House would be, to consign officers and men, to a hopeless banishment, which, in other countries, was only visited as a punishment on the most culpable delinquents. The hon. gentleman was not more happy in his statement of the numerical military force of the country, than in the means by which he proposed to reduce the estimates. He stated, that we had an army of 239,000 men. How did he make out that magnificent army? By first of all enlisting the marines into it. Next, he puts forward the disembodied militia—a species of force admirably adapted to colonial service! But would the committee believe it? 22,000 men of

1105
that deception of force, and which the hon. gentleman contended were to be found in Ireland,, had no existence, save in the vivid imagination of the hon. member for Montrose. Not one man of the Irish militia was embodied. So that, as far as they were concerned, the statement was a complete creation of the hon. member. By the same enlarged optics the hon. member had discovered an effective force of 74,000 volunteers. Now it was little less than ridiculous to calculate as part of the disposable force of this country a disembodied militia, in which not one private was enrolled, or to treat in the same manner men who were only assembled to perform eight days' permanent duty in the year.—He thought he had stated enough to show that there were sufficient reasons why the House should not accede to the proposition of the hon. member; and when that hon. member calculated the increase of the expenditure since 1792, he should have considered what was the nature of that increase, and he would then have found that it depended on charges not connected with the increase of our disposable military force. In fact, the portion of the estimates to which he now particularly alluded would not be affected by the proposed reduction, even if that reduction were now to be carried into effect. In 1792, the expense for half-pay and annuities for past service, widows' pensions, and other charges of a similar nature, was 434,000 l. The same expense last year, was 2,803,000 l. So that, when they examined the charges, they would find that there was an addition of 2,400,000 l. for what the gratitude of the country had voted in the way of provision for those who had been engaged in the public service. Under all the circumstances, he considered that no case had been made out to induce the committee to accede to the hon. member's proposition.
Mr. Robertsonadverted to the inconsistency of the hon. member for Aberdeen, in calling for low prices at one time, and attributing distress to them at another. He had generally voted with ministers upon this subject: but he really thought they did not know what they were about. They were opening our markets to a competition with foreign nations whose labourers lived at less expense, and could Work cheaper than our own; and they were, at the same time, raising the standard of the currency. If they persevered, fewer commodities would be consumed,
1106
while the weight of the public burthens would be grievously augmented by the reduction. They ought, therefore, to do every thing that was possible in the way of reduction of the establishments.
Mr. Humesaid, he would have been satisfied with the application of the new forces to the relief of foreign garrisons, but his complaint still was, that they were chiefly kept at home. If government were sincere, the increase would only have been made in available corps. But, how stood the fact? The Life-guards were 785 men in 1792; they were now 1,305. The increase of the other regiments of cavalry was from 3,037 to 7,014. Were these additional cavalry wanted for the garrisons abroad? The guards had been increased from 3,572 to 5,726. They were not wanted to increase the garrisons abroad? Why not reduce 8,000 of this the most expensive class in the service, when they might keep 16,000 infantry for less money? Each cavalryman cost 74 l. per year, while the cost of an infantry soldier was only 31 l.; so that if the same money must be expended, more than double the number of men, and those of the useful and available sort, might be maintained with it. The marines, which now amounted to 9,000, were spoken of by the noble lord as only applicable to other services; but in some places they had been employed in garrison. He now came to the militia, whose numbers he was supposed to have overstated. What was the fact? The militia, he asserted, consisted of 55,092 men and officers. Of these, a large proportion were said never to have been enrolled. If that was the fact, how could the noble lord ask them to pay for a force which was not in existence, but which had, nevertheless, cost them a sum of 91,000 l. per ann. since the peace? On the subject of the half-pay, he had only to observe, that if the government would not fill up the list of half-pay with young men in order to perpetuate the item, there might be some hope of a reduction in that quarter, but not otherwise. That they did so, was evident from the fact, that the half-pay list had greatly increased since the year 1816. At that time, the sum required for half-pay amounted to 114,000 l. It had varied in the succeeding years, and it now amounted to 123,000 l. So that our half-pay had materially increased during eleven years of peace.
Lord Palmerstonasserted that the 13,000

1107
additional men granted last year had been applied to the relief of foreign garrisons. The hon. gentleman was clearly in error as to the actual number of men in the militia and volunteers. As to the charge for half-pay, there was an absolute reduction. In 1820, it was 840,000 l. this year it would be 770,000 l.
The Committee divided: for Mr. Hume's amendment 45. Against it 144.

List of the Minority.

Allen, J. H.

Milton, viscount

Althorp, viscount

Monck, J. B.

Bernal, R.

Newman, R. W.

Benett, J.

Ord, W.

Birch, J.

Palmer, C. F.

Blake, sir F.

Pares, T.

Brougham, H.

Pelham, J. C.

Bright, H.

Philips, G. R.

Burdett, sir F.

Powlett, hon. W.

Davies, T. H.

Robarts, A.

Denman, T.

Robarts, S.

Duncannon, viscount

Robertson, A.

Evans, W.

Robinson, sir G.

Ellice, Ed.

Russell, lord J.

Griffiths, J. W.

Smith, W.

Guise, sir W.

Tierney, rt. hon G.

Heron, sir R.

Tremayne, S. H.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Williams, J.

Honeywood, W.

Wilson, sir R.

Howard, H.

Wood, M.

Knight, Robert

Wyvill, M.

Lamb, hon. G.

TELLER.

Marjoribanks, S.

Martin, J.

Hume, Joseph

On the resolution, "That 156,271 l. be granted for defraying the charge of volunteer corps in Great Britain and Ireland for the year 1826,"
Mr. Humeobjected to an additional grant for the yeomanry and volunteer establishment. Indeed, he did not see the least necessity for a country enjoying a profound peace to be burthened with a yeomanry establishment, and he should propose its being abolished altogether.
Lord Althorpsaid, he thought the volunteer corps a very useless force, and that not a single shilling, in the present state of the country, ought to be expended on them more than last year. He belonged to a yeomanry corps which drew no pay; 6ut if they remained embodied, and were called out on permanent duty, it was necessary to pay them. He would therefore move "That 147,000 l., the estimate for last year, be substituted for 156,271 l."
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that, as he understood the hon. member for Montrose, his proposition was, that the volunteer establishment should be abolished. He
1108
begged to remind the hon. gentleman of the remarks of the finance committee of 1817, whose labours were so fortunate as to meet with the approval of the hon. gentleman. The right hon. Secretary here read an extract from the report of the finance committee of 1817, showing the favourable light in which they viewed the volunteer establishments So far the opinion of that committee was favourable to the volunteer system, and in that opinion he cordially concurred. The question was, whether there should be any addition made to the allowance of volunteers. He felt that there should be an increased allowance; inasmuch as the present pay of the volunteer corps was inadequate to their support. In the course of his official duties, he had frequent occasions to observe the conduct of the volunteers, and he thought the whole establishment was most credit-table to themselves and to the country. Yet he had never wished to see that establishment increased, and when application had been made to him from various quarters for the purpose of augmenting the yeomanry, he had uniformly resisted such a measure. He considered that the manner adopted for training and exercising those men was attended with most unnecessary expense, and it was now done away with altogether. He wished to see a permanent duty allotted to the volunteers, and was convinced that such a regulation would be most satisfactory. He wished further, that they should be inspected at stated times by competent cavalry officers, by whose report the House would be enabled to judge as to their conduct and discipline. He wished, however, not to be misunderstood. He had no desire to see the civil power placed in the hands of military men. He had never wished to call in the aid of the military, to accomplish that which the civil power would be competent to perform; but it was no reflection on the country to say that circumstances might arise when the civil authorities would be set at nought, and the intervention of the military be found necessary. He believed that the existence of that most useful body of men was of great service, and he thought that the observation used by the hon. member, that they were merely kept up to strike awe into the country, was most Unfair and invidious. He supported the motion for an additional allowance, as he

1109
believed that 5s. a-day was inadequate to the support of a man who had his horse as; well as himself to provide for. He thought 7s. a day a reasonable charge.
Sir R. Heronconsidered every shilling that went to the support of volunteer cavalry thrown away. What were these troops fit for? In cases of internal disturbances they were not fit persons to quell riot and disorder. Their local connexion with the county made them parties in every disturbance, and they were therefore unfitted to interpose between conflicting parties. The disturbances at Manchester afforded a strong instance of this. It was otherwise with the regular army.
Lord J. Russellobjected to the existence of a volunteer establishment, for he believed, in most instances, they were kept up for political purposes, and to gratify the party feelings of those by whom they were established. Constituted as volunteer corps were, they produced any thing but concord in the country; and he would much rather see the military called out in aid of the civil authorities, in case of necessity, than have resort to the interference of men who, from local feelings and connexions, were more likely to act from passion than otherwise. He therefore objected to any additional allowance, and moved, as an amendment, that 25,000 l. be adopted in place of the sum proposed by the original resolution. He had never heard such weak reasons adduced for keeping up a large military force while the Country was in the enjoyment of a profound peace.
Sir R. Fergussonseconded the motion of his noble friend. The yeomanry corps consisted of few masters and many servants, and were not that independent sort of yeomanry, paying their own expenses which he should like to see in the country. The regular troops were better in cases of disturbances than the yeomanry. He would like to see our cavalry plain English troops. They were the best cavalry in Europe; and he did not see any reason for dressing them out in mustachios, to the annoyance of the men themselves, and to the disgust of those who beheld them. He wished to see them plainly dressed, without any of the fopperies of foreign troops.
Mr. Benettconceived, that it was impossible for a yeoman to pay his expenses out of 5s. a day; he thought that 7s. was inadequate for man and horse. He had
1110
witnessed the exertions of the yeomanry in times of disturbance, and bore willing testimony to the prompt and efficient manner in which they preserved the public peace. There was nothing military about them. They were merely armed constables; and he had seen them, on several occasions, suppress very dangerous riots, without so much as presenting a pistol or drawing a sword. He wished to see them called out for three or four days in every year, for the purpose of being drilled and disciplined, and in order to ascertain their efficiency.
Col. Johnsondenied the utility of the yeomanry cavalry, and opposed the grant altogether.
Mr. Davenportsaid, that without the yeomanry the peace of the county which he represented could not have been preserved. He believed, almost every manufacturing establishment in it would have been destroyed.
Mr. Wynndefended the present constitution of the yeomanry cavalry. Their utility in preserving the public peace was to be estimated, not so much by the riots they had suppressed, as by those they had prevented. Even in the conduct of the Manchester yeomanry, in 1816, he had always been of opinion, that there were many points perfectly defensible.
Lord Althorpapproved of the yeomanry system, not as a political engine, but as a means of bringing the gentry and farmers together. But he objected to the practice of keeping them out on permanent duty.
Sir H. Vivianbore testimony to the good discipline and general efficiency of the yeomanry cavalry; but it was desirable that they should be inspected by cavalry officers.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that the House had voted as large a standing army for the present year of tranquillity, as it did immediately after the peace, when Europe was in the most unsettled condition. Under these circumstances, he considered the proposed vote for the yeomanry wholly unnecessary.
Mr. Hobhousegave notice, that he would, on Monday, when the report should be brought up, propose the reduction of the estimate to some definite number. On referring to the army estimates for 1820, he found that those for the present year were quite as burthensome to the nation, in every respect.
Mr. Goocheulogized the yeomanry, as the constitutional force of the country.
Mr. Bernalwas of opinion, that while the military establishment was continued on its present scale, the yeomanry force was unnecessary.
Mr. Evanswas of opinion, that if the magistracy of the country were to do their duty with proper vigilance and alacrity, there would be no occasion for the description of force under consideration.
Sir F. Burdettsaid, he wished to protect himself against being supposed to participate in the views of his hon. friends, who thought that the interference of a Standing army with the civil power was preferable, in a constitutional point of view, to that of a yeomanry force. He perfectly agreed with those who considered the yeomanry as the constitutional force of the country; and notwithstanding what had been said of their inefficiency, he had observed them in the two counties with which he was best acquainted, Wiltshire and Berkshire, to be both, as to appearance and discipline, a highly respectable and useful force. In every point of view they did credit to the country. He objected, however, to the custom of taking them out on permanent duty, as it was called, because that practice had a direct tendency to destroy their constitutional character, and convert them into a body of a very different nature. The farmer could not afford to leave his home for seven or eight days, and he therefore was obliged to send a servant as his subtitute. In this way a sort of armed police might be raised; but, unless the farmers themselves filled the ranks, it would be no real yeomanry force. Reference had been made to the conduct of the Manchester yeomanry, in 1816, but that corps was not, properly speaking, a true yeomanry force, but a body of armed partisans. They had, under peculiar circumstances of public excitement, been brought into action with exasperated feelings, against an unarmed multitude. But that transaction was in no degree discreditable to the genuine yeomanry. He confessed, that no part of the expense of our military establishment was, in his opinion, so little objectionable, as the grant under discussion. But he repeated, that if the object was to preserve the real character of this description of force, the permanent duty ought not to extend beyond three or four days, at the furthest. It was highly desirable, no doubt, to reduce the military charges of the country; but he was not disposed, therefore, to diminish the
1112
necessary allowances to the Yeomanry cavalry.
Mr. Secretary Peelstated, in explanation, that the permanent duty was not imposed upon the yeomanry as an obligation on each particular corps, to be performed at a period fixed by government. The course pursued was, to leave each corps to choose its own time, when it asked for permission to go out for a certain number of days.
Lord Miltonwas of opinion, that the yeomanry had become a very different force from what they were originally intended to be, and were applied to very different purposes.
Lord John Russellsaid, that after what had passed, he should not divide the committee.
The amendments were then negatived, and the original Resolution agreed to.

CORN LAWS.
Lord Kingrose to present a petition against the most gigantic of all jobs. It came from the working community of Manchester and its neighbourhood, and was signed by 40,000 persons, and would have been signed by 20,000 more, had it not been for the delay and expense of collecting them. He thought that the character of that House would depend on the result of their lordships' determination respecting the Corn-laws. In coming to this question, their lordships ought to recollect, that the public were very good judges, not only of the value of their decisions, but of the motives of them also. The petitioners stated, that the Corn-laws were made for the benefit of the landlords; but in that House it was always argued, that those laws were established for the benefit of the public; and those who were most forward in maintaining this doctrine, Were among the persons who contended for unlimited trade in every other respect. The people, however, were now too well informed on the subject, and their lordships must expect to draw very largely on public credulity, if they thought they could make it be believed that those laws were for any body's benefit but the landowners. Some noble lords, however, objected very much to "little harangues" on corn, and wished to have nothing said on the subject, except in a real debate, in which they might sport all the variety of their ingenuity. These great orators were like those sportsmen who wished to abstain from shooting occasionally, in order to have he great shooting day. Others, on the contrary, chose to shoot every day in the year, and he believed that, in the end, they killed more than those who reserved themselves for one great annual battle. When the great debate day did come, he had no doubt that some noble lords would
1076
endeavour to prove that the real interests of the manufacturers and labourers consisted in eating the dearest corn, and in being confined to the narrowest market. To him nothing could be more absurd than this; for when the price of corn was made dear, the labour of those who consumed it must be increased, as they could not get proportionate wages. There could be no greater injustice than this, and he believed nothing was so likely to diffuse angry feelings, and separate the labouring community from the owners of property. He was therefore most anxious that the subject should be gone into without loss of time.
Ordered to lie on the table.