Sitting of 17 February 1826

CONDUCT OF MR. KENRICK IN THE CASE OF FRANKS.
The order of the day for going into a committee on the Charge against Mr. Kenrick was read. On the question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair,"
The Speakersaid, that before he quitted the Chair, it was fit that the House should thoroughly understand the course to be pursued in the committee. If the committee were left without any instruction, it would be its duty not only to inquire into the charge by evidence, but to come to some resolution upon it, afterwards to be reported to the House; if, on the other hand, the committee, by a special instruction, were confined only to the taking of evidence, that evidence would be reported without the declaration of any opinion. Thus the result in the two cases would be different, and the course of proceeding would also materially vary. It would be observed also, that no speech from counsel could be heard, if the committee were only to take evidence, though the learned gentlemen might cross-examine the witnesses. If there were no restriction on the committee, and the whole subject were left open to its deliberation, then, of course, it would be its duty to listen to counsel on behalf of the party accused.
Mr. Denmanwished the committee to inquire into the whole matter, and that Mr. Kenrick's counsel should have an opportunity of addressing the committee, when the evidence was gone through. He should think it his duty, after the inquiry was over, to propose certain resolutions.
Mr. Secretary Peelthought the better way would be to confine the committee to receiving the evidence. The House was aware that a judge was independent of the Crown, and could be removed only on an address from parliament. It was possible that the House might, in this instance, have to discharge that important duty. He merely supposed the possibility of such a contingency. Was it not, then, better that the House should have all the facts laid before it, and, on a full revision of the case, adopt such measures as were best calculated to answer the ends of justice?
Mr. Denmanthought that justice would be more likely to be done, while the proceeding would be infinitely more satisfactory to all parties, if a committee of the whole House inquired into the case without restriction. Any address to the Crown to remove a judge, must of course be the act of the House; but he did not see why a committee should not so pursue the inquiry, as to arrive at a termination which warranted it in reporting its opinion. First, the proof of the charge would be given, and upon that proof the committee might or might not report the charge established. He did not, in fact, see how the whole inquiry could be disposed of otherwise, and could find no sufficient reason, why the reported opinion of the committee, as far as it was of value, should not have its weight with the whole House.
The Speakeragain pressed upon the House the necessity of settling the course of proceeding. He had omitted to state, that if the committee went through the whole of the testimony, and registered its opinion in resolutions, those resolutions, as a matter of course, would be reported, but unaccompanied by the evidence. If, on the other hand, the committee were confined to the taking of evidence, that evidence would form the report, and the House might arrive at its own decision. It was true, that evidence could be laid upon the table upon the motion of any hon. member, but such a proceeding always implied a doubt as to
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the propriety of the determination of the committee.
Mr. Peelthought, that in so grave a case, it would be well for the House to reserve its power till after the committee. Suppose the committee should be of opinion, that though the individual had not acted quite correct, his conduct had not been so censurable as to call for his removal; would it not be desirable to avoid as much as possible casting a stigma upon a public functionary so placed? He thought, upon the whole, the better course would be for the committee to take the evidence, that being the sole duty devolving upon it, and then report it, the House reserving to itself any ulterior consideration. Of the case, he knew nothing, and was therefore free from prepossession and prejudice either way.
Mr. Abercrombysaw no substantial difference between the two courses. The result, in either case, would, in his opinion, be the same; nor did he think that the accused party would be aggrieved by adopting the course suggested by his learned friend. Any case having reference to the administration of justice could not be inquired into with too much exactness. It ought to be thoroughly sifted; for if the opinions which had been broached were to be acted upon, namely, that the House was not authorised to inquire into the conduct of a judge, it would be deprived of one of its most wholesome and important functions.
Mr. Denmansaid, that another reason for requiring an opinion from the committee was, that in that case counsel might be heard before it in the same manner as his learned friend, Mr. Gurney, had been permitted to address the committee of last session.
The Speakersaid, that in either case counsel might be heard: they could be heard before the committee, if the committee were to report their opinion, or before the House, if the House reserved to itself the consideration of the evidence.
The Hon. William Lambsaid, he could not discover in what way this particular charge was connected with Mr. Kenrick's public character, or judicial duties. In the former inquiry, there was at least an allegation that Mr. Kenrick, as a magistrate, had been guilty of a denial of justice; a public wrong was thus done, and a private injury sustained. When, however, the House was now told, that it was its solemn duty to watch over

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the conduct of judges, he could not help adverting to the point, how far the judicial conduct of the party accused was involved in this question. He had never held so absurd a doctrine, as that the official acts of judges ought not to be investigated by the House; but he begged leave to state, that he should be sorry to see the censorial power of prying into the private lives and domestic affairs of judges, vested in any body of men, and of all bodies of men, he should be most sorry to see it exercised by the House of Commons, where the power was so likely to be abused, and made the instrument of the most iniquitous tyranny. He had no connection with, and felt no prejudice in favour of Mr. Kenrick. He was only anxious to avoid the establishment of so dangerous a precedent—a precedent which might, at some future period, be applied to the ruin of an innocent, but an unpopular and obnoxious individual. He did not feel inclined to resist the motion, that the Speaker leave the chair; but he thought it would be much wiser if the House, in this stage, dropt the proceeding altogether. He did not see that the party supposed to have sustained the wrong, would thus be materially injured; and it seemed to him, that one part of the charge, namely, that which related to the compromise, was a matter of daily occurrence. Juries were frequently desired to find parties not guilty, when the evidence was strong against them, because some arrangement had been made; and he much doubted whether his learned friend himself had not been, in the course of his practice, a party to them. If the House were now to abandon the charge, it would require no explanation; because every man of discrimination and understanding would always see on the face of the accusation ample and manifest reasons for relinquishing the proceeding [hear, hear!]. He had not intended to have offered an amendment, but finding himself supported in his view of the case, he should move, "That this House will not proceed further in the matter of the said Charge,"
Colonel Woodseconded the amendment. AH he knew of the case had been gathered from the votes. He was quite at a loss as to the capacity in which Mr. Kenrick was charged. In the accusation he was spoken of, indeed, as a magistrate and a Welch judge. But, pf what had he been guilty in those characters?
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The House was not precluded from such inquiries, but to enter upon them lightly was to open a wide and dangerous door. The best and safest course would be to proceed no further.
Mr. Secretary Peelwished to state the reason why he should support the original motion. If the case were entirely a new one, and now brought forward for the first time, he should, as he had said on a former night, feel very much disposed to concur in opinion with his hon. friend, that the proceeding was inexpedient. But, he could not come to that conclusion now. They had permitted the charge to lie on their table. They had so far committed themselves for inquiry; and the learned gentleman had consented to postpone that inquiry, at his suggestion, from the last session, without the least hint given to him, that there was any intention to mar his proceeding in a later stage. In candour, therefore, he could not now interpose an obstacle, however impressed he might be with the injurious tendency of the precedent. He did not, however, see that this was exactly a private or domestic transaction, with which it was clearly beyond their province to interfere. No doubt the learned gentleman meant to impute malice to Mr. Kenrick in Franks case, and in the discharge of his public duty. Beset as he felt the proceeding was with dangers and difficulties, still he could not refuse his assent, under the circumstances in which he was placed, to the learned gentleman's motion.
Mr. Scarlettfelt that the present charge was only part of the proceeding of last session. From professional connexion with the parties, he had, from the first, been unwilling to say one word upon the subject; and he should have been deeply impressed with what had fallen from the hon. member for Hertford, if the present accusation had stood alone. One part of it was for a malicious prosecution, and the other for a libel; and for both, the ordinary tribunals of the country afforded sufficient remedies. Franks might bring his action for a malicious prosecution, if the prosecution were malicious; or he might proceed for damages for a libel, if the publication complained of were libellous. He agreed fully with the hon. member for Hertford as to the nature of the charge; he had never, indeed, read it until that moment, but he found that Mr. Kenrick was not accused in it, either as a magistrate or as a judge. He could easily

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foresee that the House might be involved in some difficulty by entertaining it. Suppose the evidence having been gone through, the House should find the accusation true, and Franks, encouraged by the resolution, should bring his action; the jury might find a verdict for the defendant, and thus the decision of the House and of a court of justice would be in direct opposition. He did not mean, that the decision of a jury would be conclusive against the House, or prove that the House had been wrong in its hasty resolution; but he pointed out the manner in which the decisions might clash, in order to show the inconvenience that might result from entering upon the question at all.
Mr. S. Bournesaid, that as far as he understood the charge, it did not at all imply malice. It alleged that Mr. Kenrick had preferred an accusation against Franks without sufficient proof; yet it went on to state, that the proof was so sufficient as to induce a magistrate to commit, and a grand jury to find a true bill. Thus, then, it was evident, that the only tangible accusation against Mr. Kenrick was for publishing a libel; but he had not published it, either in his character of a magistrate or a judge. If, indeed, the House had already committed itself on the subject, he should not feel himself at liberty to vote against proceeding further with the inquiry; but it seemed to him, that it was only to investigate the moral character of an individual, and that the precedent about to be established was full of danger.
Mr. Denmanexpressed much surprise at the course which the discussion had taken. It could not be forgotten, that the charge had been placed upon the Journals in the last session; that long previous notice had been given of it; that papers had been laid upon the table; and that the grounds laid for the motion were quite unconnected with the private conduct of Mr. Kenrick. That gentleman had thought proper to apply for a criminal information against a newspaper for some comments upon his magisterial conduct, and he had put in several affidavits, in one of which was this gross libel upon Franks. Was this a private proceeding, or were the materials of accusation taken from an opponent? No; they were publicly and voluntarily furnished in a court of justice by Mr. Kenrick himself. They were in consequence, repeated in thousands of news-
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papers throughout the country. To say of such a proceeding, that it was an inquisition into a man's private and domestic life, was very much like a perversion of fact. He denied that the transaction had any thing in it of a private character; it was, on the contrary, a most gross act of public oppression, and a great perversion of justice. To say that such things were frequently done by professional men in compromises for their clients was incorrect. For any barrister to have acted so, would have been most disgraceful; and he could assure his hon. friend, that he had never, in his professional course, tolerated such a practice. He was also quite surprised at what had fallen from his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Scarlett), who had warned them against proceeding, because, forsooth, it was possible they might decide one way, and a jury afterwards another. If that argument were valid, there would be an end altogether to parliamentary control; for, in almost every case in which their jurisdiction could be called for, the parties might possibly have a legal remedy elsewhere. He repeated, that he impugned Mr. Kenrick upon his public act—upon that affidavit, the libellous contents of which proclaimed a calumny, to the serious injury of an individual who had already been oppressed for a supposed act of felony. He admitted, that he was bound to show a malicious motive; for without that the libel might be no crime. There were libels in a legal sense, he knew, that brought down punishment upon the writers, although, in a moral sense, they entitled them to the highest praise. But, what mitigation was there in this case I Here was a man who first prosecuted his neighbour as a felon, and, then failing in the attempt, afterwards endeavoured to run him down by a libel, stating false facts to his prejudice. Ought such a person to be permitted to continue in the administration of justice? Mr. Kenrick had thought proper to charge four facts against this poor and unhappy man, every one of which he undertook distinctly to prove false and calumnious. Was the House to look on, and see such acts perpetrated by a public functionary, who was bound to administer strict justice? If they were prepared to sit merely for the gratification of their own individual pursuits and the promotion of their own interests, they might do so, and risk their character with the public. He would ask them, whether there

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could be any duty more important than that of keeping the judgment-seat clear from stain, of preventing its occupancy by those who could only sit there to disgrace it? If they were prepared to admit this, and make such conduct a stepping-stone to promotion, or a protection for guilt, then, in God's name, let them avow that determination in the face of the public, and dispose of his motion as they pleased. So long, however, as he had a seat in the House, he was determined to do his duty. The argument of some hon. members would go this length—that all propriety, all moderation, all decorum, might be banished from the bench, without requiring the interference of that House. Would this indifference on the part of the House render the office of judge more respectable in the estimation of the public? He contended that, by the act of Settlement, it was the duty of the House to examine the conduct of judges, if notoriously improper, even on matters which affected their private character. If open scandal arose from the private conduct of a judge, which would be prejudicial to the administration of justice in his person, the House was bound to inquire into the affair. The conduct of the learned person, the subject of the present discussion, had been made public, by his own voluntary act, in bringing the matter before a court of justice; and it was, therefore, such that the House could not omit to notice it.
Mr. Scarlettsaid, that his argument did not go the length of asserting, that all moderation and decorum might be banished from the bench, and yet no public inquiry should take place by that House. He would admit, that the private conduct and actions of judges might in some cases become the subject of parliamentary inquiry; but these were extreme cases. If a judge was guilty of a libel, the law would reach him as well as any other person; and where that remedy might be had, he did not think, except in extreme cases, the House should interfere in matters affecting private conduct.
Mr. Stuart Wortleythought the present case rather a curious one for the interference of the House. He would admit that the House might be called upon to interfere in certain cases, but he thought the present was not one of them. According to the statement of the hon. and learned mover, the first two parts of his charge were not offences of Mr. Kenrick, nor offences at all. It was another
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magistrate by whom the man was committed. Then, as to inducing a man to plead guilty, it was a thing done every day. What was more common than to ask a roan accused of forgery to plead guilty to the minor offence? In these there was nothing of which that House or any tribunal could take cognizance. He objected to the motion, because he thought it would lead to a very bad precedent. He should be sorry to see the House of Commons made judges of libel. The House took that office with respect to its own privileges; and though he did not think that, even in such a case, they were at all times the best judges, yet they did claim that power, and would allow no other party to be judges of it but themselves. God forbid, however, that they should ever become the judges of the question of libel in private cases; for he considered that they would be the worst possible judges of such matters. From the very nature of the case, they must be prejudiced. He would therefore advise the twelve learned gentlemen to let the question of libel be decided by a jury of twelve men, and then, fortified with their verdict, if he should obtain it, let him come to that House with a motion respecting the conduct of Mr. Kenrick, and they would no doubt deal with the case as it might require. Having this view of the case, he felt obliged to the hon. member for Hertford for having moved the amendment; for, as long as he had a seat in that House, he would never consent to a vote which would make it the judges of libels between individuals.
Mr. Abercrombysaid, he did not know any thing of the merits of the case; but whenever a matter affecting the conduct of a judge came before them, he thought it was their duty to institute an inquiry. The doctrine held by hon. members who opposed this motion, would have the effect of shutting out the exercise of one of the most valuable of their functions. He thought it was not too much to say, that if an individual, by acts of his own, had given notoriety to certain parts of his conduct, and those parts were of such a character as that, after they became known, no minister would dare to recommend him to the Crown to fill the office of judge—it was not, he repeated, too much to say, that the same acts being committed by a person who already held the office of judge, the House was bound, by the act of Settlement, to make them the subject

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of inquiry. Was it denied that the judges, who had to decide on questions affecting the lives and property of the king's subjects, ought to be men of pure and unblemished character? And, if this was important to the due administration of justice, was it too much to ask, that inquiry should be made, when charges affecting the character of a judge in a very serious manner, though not in his judicial capacity, were brought before the House? Some gentlemen, who thought it beneath them to protect the purity of the administration of justice, might wish to get rid of all inquiry; but he took a very different view of his duties as a member of that House, and of the importance of the matter before them; and he thought it would be no excuse for their neglect of this subject to say, that the House had already decided on a former case affecting the gentleman whose name was mentioned. This case was the following up of that which they had before them last session. It might be a matter of regret that they were not both together; but that ought not to hinder them from being considered as affecting the character of the individual, as to his fitness for being continued in the office of judge. Taking the two cases together (should the present charge be made out), the question would be, was the conduct of this gentleman, on the whole, such as that no minister would recommend his appointment as a judge; and if not, ought he to be continued in that situation? He did not mean to say it followed that, because he could not now be recommended to the office, he ought therefore not to be continued in it; but the question, as was properly observed by the right hon. secretary, was one of degree; and it would be for the House, considering all the circumstances of both cases, to say, whether they were such as should induce them to send up any address to the Crown on the subject of this gentleman's removal from office. As to the case itself, he would not go into it; but he thought it was almost impossible, that any man could read the charges, and not say there was a case for serious investigation. He regretted to find that it was viewed so lightly by some hon. members, or that they should feel disposed to throw so important a duty from their own shoulders.
Mr. Secretary Canningobserved, that of all the questions which came under the consideration of that House, those which partook of a judicial character were the ques-
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tions on which every hon. member must act on his own individual impression. Without at all entering into the merits of the case itself, he was desirous briefly to state the grounds on which he should vote against the amendment, and for the hon. and learned gentleman's motion. If the question were now brought forward for the first time, he might, perhaps, be inclined to agree with those who were of opinion, that there was not that in the charge on the table, which ought to induce the House to enter into the consideration of the subject. But, he could not forget that a proceeding, of which this was a part, was received and countenanced by the House last session; nor could he forget, that he was one of those who concurred in inducing the hon. and learned gentleman to postpone that proceeding to the present; without, of course, entertaining the slightest intention of interposing any obstacle to that proceeding, whenever the hon. and learned gentleman might think proper to bring it forward. He therefore found himself compelled, by a sense of consistency, in this view of the case (although he did not know what he might have done, were the subject now an original one), to abstain by his vote from throwing any impediment in the way of a proceeding, which the learned gentleman, for the convenience of public business, had last session consented to stay. This was certainly not more than the learned gentleman had a right to expect in return for his courtesy.
Mr. Denisonsaid, he had just had a communication with Mr. Kenrick in the lobby, who had told him, that he was perfectly prepared to meet the charge preferred against him, but would cheerfully submit to any course the House might think proper. He entirely concurred in the sentiments of the hon. member for Yorkshire; there was one observation, however, in the speech of the learned member for Calne, on which he must make a single remark. That learned member had supposed, that Mr. Kenrick's magisterial character would influence the committing magistrate to commit the person against whom he preferred the charge, and would afterwards influence the grand jury to find the bill. Now, really he thought the learned member knew the law too well not to be aware that no committing magistrate would have dared so to act, liable as he would be to severe punishment for his conduct; and

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that it was not probable the grand jury, who were on their oaths, would be induced, by fear or affection, to commit gross and deliberate perjury.
Mr. Wynnsaid, that if the hon. member for Hertford pressed his amendment to a division, he should vote for it. He could not concur with those gentlemen who thought that this charge was a necessary sequel of the charge of last session. They were quite distinct, and he thought it would be injustice to Mr. Kenrick for hon. members to allow their opinions on this case to be influenced by what took place on that occasion. The ground on which the case of last session went was, that if it could be proved that this gentleman had acted improperly in his character as a justice of the peace, that ought to be a reason why he should be considered unfit to fill the higher office of a judge. The transaction in the present case did not affect him in his public capacity, but had reference to him solely as a private individual, for which he was liable, if he were in fault, to be called to account before the ordinary tribunals of the country. The House should recollect, that whatever might be their decision on this case, it would not ultimately rest with them alone. The concurrence of the other House would be necessary; and suppose that concurrence could not be obtained, what a situation would they be placed in, and what would be the painful situation of this individual, thus allowed to remain with the deep stain on his character, which a resolution of the House against him might imply? Would it not be a much better course for the House to confine itself to cases where guilt had been proved by the ordinary tribunals? He did not mean to say that there were not cases in which the House would be called upon to interfere, before any inquiry by the courts of law; but these were extreme cases, and it was most desirable that the principle applying to them should not be extended. He could not at all concur in the observation of the learned member for Calne, that if the character of an individual were such as that no minister would recommend him as a judge, that therefore (he being already a judge) he should not be allowed to continue to fill that situation. A judge held his situation quamdiu bene se gesserit; but the reasons for which he might be removed were, in general, founded upon his con-duct as a judge. He did not say that
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cases might not arise, out of his private conduct, which would justify his removal; but the charge before the House was not, in his opinion, one of that description. Taking it for granted, for a moment, that the whole of the charge now preferred were clearly made out, he did not think it would justify the House in agreeing to an address for Mr. Kenrick's removal. One word as to the supposed pledge given by the House last session. He did not think that the postponement of the matter by general consent, implied a sanction of the propriety of its introduction in the present. Even after the charge was laid on the table, and the attendance of witnesses ordered, he thought the House were not precluded from reviewing their decision, and if reasons were shown, from coming to a resolution to proceed no further in the affair.
The House divided: for the original motion 81; for the amendment 42, majority 39.
The House having resolved itself into the committee, Mr. Robert Gordon in the chair,
Henry Peters, Esq. was called in and examined by Mr. Denman, as follows:
Are you a magistrate for Surrey?—Yes.
Where do you reside?—At Betchworthcastle.
Is that near to where Mr. Kenrick resides?—About two miles.
Are you the magistrate before whom John Franks's daughter was brought on a charge of stealing from Mr. Kenrick's family?—I am.
How long is it since that charge was preferred?—It is a great many years; I should suppose seven or eight at least.
Do you remember what the age of Franks's daughter was at the time?—I do not recollect that I ever saw her; but I understood her to be about fourteen or fifteen.
Do you recollect the fact of a charge being preferred before you?—A charge was preferred, but, to the best of my recollection, I did not see the party, I think that I only granted a search warrant.
Do you recollect any evidence being brought before you to affect either Franks, the father, or the mother, with respect to the charge so preferred against their daughter?—Certainly not.
Were they charged before you, as abettors of their daughter, in the theft she was supposed to have committed?—Certainly not.
Are you the person who had some sheep stolen some years ago, when Franks was brought into some suspicion on that account?—I was.
Will you state shortly the circumstances?—

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It so happens that I had two sets of sheep taken; there were two years elapsed between the two circumstances. The first was, that I had about thirty-eight sheep stolen, part of I them out of a fold by the road side, near a footpath; the last were in the park. There were twenty sheep, I think, taken out of the fold, and there was a footpath leading from a house. There was a paper found by the side of the fold the day after the sheep were missed, and that paper evidently belonged to Franks, and that caused some little suspicion. I was in town myself; but my bailiff, in consequence, went to lord Rothes.
Your bailiff is here?—Yes, he is; this footpath leads from the place where Mr. Franks was working with a Mr. Browne, at the top of the hill. This footpath was in a direct road from where he was working to where he lived; there it was that the letter was found. That was the only suspicion that I ever had, or that ever was entertained of Franks having taken my sheep. Immediately after that, the man who had stolen the sheep was taken up, tried, and convicted.
Did you ever at any other time lose any sheep in which Franks ever incurred any suspicion at all?—About two years afterwards, I had, in another part of the farm, one sheep killed, and I believe taken away; another was wounded; but as to that, there was not the slightest ground of suspicion that I ever heard of against Franks.
Did you, at any time in August, 1824, receive a letter from Mr. Kenrick?—I did. I have got the letter here; but it bears no date except that of Sunday morning.
Is that in Mr. Kenrick's hand-writing?—I have not the least reason to doubt it; and I received it by his servant from him.
[The Letter was read as follows:]
"My dear Sir;—I returned home last night, and found the fair copy I send herewith, of the draft affidavit, which I hastily put together in the two days I could remain in the country, before I was obliged to set out on the circuit, after I was made acquainted with the attack made on me in the Morning Chronicle.
"My solicitor strongly recommends to me lo apply to the different parties whose names are mentioned, to make affidavit of such facts as are stated in relation to them; and shall be therefore obliged by your perusing the second, third, fourth, and fifth sheets of this draft for me, if you will make an affidavit in confirmation of what is there stated.
"I have my doubts of the propriety of stating the circumstance about your two sheep, in pages four and five, and at all events it will not be necessary, if I should be advised or determine to retain that part, for you to enter upon it in your affidavit. I will call on you to-morrow, if you wish it.
"Pray return me the draft affidavit by the bearer, after you have read the pages mentioned, and the rest, if you please. I have
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directed the bearer to wait for it, if you are at home, any time you may wish. I am yours, truly,
"Sunday morning. W. KENRICK."
Was that letter accompanied by an affidavit?—It was.
Did you see Mr. Kenrick in consequence of that letter?—I did not, but I wrote him an answer to that letter.
Did you see Mr. Kenrick upon the subject of that affidavit?—I cannot say whether I did or not, it is so long ago; I very likely did, but I wrote him an answer to the letter decidedly at the time.
Did you keep a copy of the answer you sent?—No, I did not; I recollect perfectly well what I wrote, and I have no doubt Mr. Kenrick has got the answer.
Did you return the affidavit to Mr. Kenrick?—I did, with a letter.
Was it returned altered in any respect?—I think it very likely that I might have written my opinion upon parts of it; I recollect perfectly well having written a letter, or at least sent an answer.
What was that answer?—I said in that answer, that I did not think that I could make any affidavit to the facts he had alluded to, for that really the circumstances were all out of my recollection, with the exception of my having granted a search warrant; but with respect to the affair of Franks, I told him by all means not to state that, as there was not the slightest proof of Franks' having been guilty of that which he supposed he was. There is one thing I ought to explain, both for Mr. Kenrick's sake and my own. Till I read the letter this very morning, so little notion had of Franks having any thing to do with the second sheep (and I only slightly suspected him of stealing the first), that I thought Mr. Kenrick alluded to the first; and I stated, therefore, that there was no evidence against him, but the piece of paper having been found, and therefore I said he ought not to put it in, because the real culprit had been taken up and convicted.
Cross-examined by Mr. Gurney.—Is not the constable who acted upon that occasion dead?—I never heard of any constable acting upon the occasion.
A man of the name of Rose?—Rose is dead; but whether he was constable or not, I really do not know.
Do you remember whether there was not a circumstance of a bloody knife as well as a piece of paper?—I never heard of a bloody knife, till either Mr. Kenrick or Mr. Wimburn mentioned it. I never heard of a bloody knife at the time; there was a space of two years between the time of my sheep having been stolen, and the one sheep having been killed; therefore the bloody knife could not be in the fold where the sheep were taken; and I am certain I never heard of a bloody knife at the time.
Examined by Mr. Denman.—Were any sheep

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killed on the occasion of the first sheep stealing, when the paper was found?—No, there were not.
How many years ago was this affair of the sheep?—I should think somewhere about six or seven. I really cannot remember the year.
You have been a magistrate a good many years for the county of Surrey?—Yes, a great many years.
And residing in the neighbourhood of Franks?—Yes.
Was Franks ever brought before you, as a magistrate?—Never; I never heard his name mentioned before me as a magistrate.
[The Witness was directed to withdraw.]
Edward Arnold was called in, and examined by Mr. Denman, as follows:
Are you Mr. Peters's bailiff?—I am.
Do you know any thing of a charge against Franks's daughter, some years ago?—No, nothing.
Do you know of a suspicion that fell upon Franks with respect to stealing some of Mr. Peters's sheep?—When Mr. Peters's sheep were stolen, or after they were stolen, there was a paper found in the field; I took the paper to lord Rothes, and he said he could see nothing to justify him in granting a warrant to apprehend Franks. Mr. Kenrick said, that he thought there was a suspicion to grant a warrant against Franks; lord Rothes afterwards said, that he could see nothing to justify him to grant a warrant against Franks, for any other person might be going up the field, and taking their handkerchief out of their pocket, they might drop a paper out, and it might be carried there by the wind.
Were you the witness that went before lord Rothes, with respect to that business?—Yes, I was.
Was there any other circumstance to charge Franks, except the finding a piece of paper near the fold where the sheep were taken from?—No, nothing that I heard of.
Were any of those sheep killed?—There were none killed at the time those were taken.
Was there a bloody knife found?—Not that I know of.
Was there any other person afterwards tried and convicted of stealing those sheep?—Yes, a person of the name of Bignold.
Did you attend his trial?—I did; he was tried, I believe, before lord Ellenborough, at Lewes. He was found guilty, and afterwards transported for the said offence.
Did you ever hear of any other circumstance that fixed Franks with any suspicion of stealing any sheep of Mr. Peters's?—Not to my knowledge.
How long have you lived near Franks?—Ever since 1811, I have lived little better than a mile from him.
What character has Franks borne during all that time, as an honest and industrious man?—I know nothing in respect to Franks's character; for at the time our sheep were stolen,
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those sheep that were stolen out of the turnips, when the paper was found, I scarcely knew there was such a man except by name.
Since that time, have you ever had dealings with Franks?—Yes; I think the sheep were stolen in April, in the November following I sold him a sow.
[The Witness was directed to withdraw.]
John Franks was called in, and examined by Mr. Denman, as follows:
What is your name?—John Franks.
Where do you live?—At Alverston, near Stratford-on-Avon.
In whose service?—Lieut.-general Jenkinson's.
In what capacity?—As gardener; I have the care of all out of the house.
Did you live some years at Betchworth, in Surrey?—Yes.
You have a freehold there?—I have.
Do you recollect your daughter being taken before Mr. Peters, the magistrate, on a charge of stealing some articles at Mr. Kenrick's?—Yes, very well.
Did you attend before the magistrate at the same time?—I did.
Was any charge made against you, of being an abettor in that theft?—I do not know that there was any charge made against me, only Mr. Kenrick rose up in a passion, and told me, if he could get any hold of me, he would make a public example of me.
Were the articles missing found any where in your house?—They were.
In what part of the house?—In a little small box belonging to the girl herself.
How old was the girl at the time?—Nearly about ten years of age; I do not know to a month or two.
What were the articles that were found in the box?—I cannot say exactly, for I never saw them till I saw them in the room; but they were slips of silk, or something of that kind, and a bit of lace, and a pair of small scissors.
Were those things found in your bed-room?—They were beside the girl's bed; she sleeps in the same room.
Were they concealed any where?—No; only in a little deal box, where she kept a doll and other things; it was a box given her by her godfather.
The charge was dismissed, it was not prosecuted?—It was not.
Out of compassion, probably, to the youth of the child?—Yes, it was.
Did Mr. Peters say any thing to you on dismissing the charge?—Not that I recollect, he did not. Mr. Adams called to me, that was Mr. Kenrick's butler.
Was that before the magistrate?—It was just withoutside of the door in the passage; but he went in to the gentlemen, and sent the constable out after me to call me back.
You were sent to prison on a charge of stealing a piece of wood?—I was.
That was in the summer of 1824?—It was.
You were in prison two months on that charge?—Exactly.
Did you give your wife any authority to intercede with Mr. Kenrick to show you any lenity on that occasion?—Not at all; I never spoke to her any thing on the subject: the last thing I spoke to her when I went out of the house was, to be sure that the children did not make use of any ill language to any of Mr. Kenrick's people, though I was sent away.
Did you ever express any gratitude to Mr. Kenrick, or his bailiff, or any of his people, for his conduct to you in the course of that prosecution?—Not at all.
Is your wife here?—I do not know that she is, unless she has come in by the coach since I came down here.
[The Witness was directed to withdraw.]
The Counsel for Mr. Kenrick being asked what course they wished to pursue, Mr. Gurney stated, that he proposed to call a witness to deliver in certain documents.
Charles John Lawson, esq. was called in, and examined by Mr. Gurney, as follows.
What is your name?—Charles John Lawson.
You are clerk of the peace for the county of Surrey?—I am.
Are you possessed of the depositions taken by Mr. Burges, the magistrate who committed Franks?—I am.
Will you produce them? [The Witness produced the Lame, and they were read as follow:]
"The King against John Franks. The Information of James Scragg, of Betchworth, in the county of Surrey, labourer, and James Beal, of Betchworth aforesaid, yeoman, taken on oath before me, Ynyr Burges, esq. one of his Majesty's Justices of the Peace, acting in and for the said county of Surrey, this 14th of May, 1824.
"James Scragg—Says: I am a labouring man, and work for William Kenrick, esq. in Betchworth. About five weeks or a month ago, I was directed to clean out a ditch on Mr. Kenrick's land, and to take an elm slab from the saw-pit to stand upon in the ditch, which I did. When I had cleaned out the ditch, I drew the plank into a small meadow belonging to Mr. Kenrick, and left it there; and I cannot say that I have seen the slab since, till yesterday, when I saw it in the garden, in the occupation of John Franks, now in custody. The slab was wet and dirty when I had done with using it, which was the reason I did not take it back to the saw-pit; and I did not do so afterwards, because I had forgotten it. The elm slab now produced is the same slab which I used, and is the property of Mr. Kenrick. The mark × of
"JAMES SCRAGG."
"James Beal, Sworn:—I am bailiff to William Kenrick, esq. of Betchworth; and directed the last witness, James Scragg, to take an elm slab, for the purpose of standing upon and
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cleaning out a ditch on Mr. Kenrick's land. This was about five weeks ago; and about a week ago I missed the slab, which had been used by Scragg, which had not been returned to the saw-pit. In the morning of yesterday, the 13th May instant, I saw an elm slab standing against a new building, in the garden of John Franks, in Betchworth, and near to his dwelling-house, and about one hundred yards from Mr. Kenrick's saw-pit. Having a suspicion that the slab I then saw was the property of Mr. Kenrick, I went to-day into the garden where the slab was still standing, and examined it, and found that it was the elm slab which had been used by the last witness, Scragg, and that it was the property of Mr. Kenrick; I then took the slab away, and took it to the timber yard, belonging to Mr. Kenrick, and fitted it to the piece of timber from which it had been sawed off. The pieces now produced are the two pieces of timber, that which I took from Franks's garden, and that I brought from the timber-yard, and which fit together. I am certain the piece of timber or slab I found in Franks's garden, is the property of William Kenrick, esq. and is of the value of one shilling. JAMES BEAL."
"John Franks, in his defence, says:—The piece of timber produced, is the piece which I set up upon my premises, but I do not know where it came from; I first saw it there about a fortnight ago. It was lying down, and I set it up. I made no inquiry about it, as to where it came from."
"Surrey. The Examination of John Franks, of Betchworth, in the county of Surrey, labourer, taken before me Ynyr Bulges, esq. one of his Majesty's Justices of the Peace for the county of Surrey, this 14th day of May, 1824.
"This Examinant being charged before me the said Justice, on the oaths of James Scragg and James Beal, with having, on the 14th day of May, 1824, at the parish of Betchworth, in the county of Surrey, feloniously stolen and carried away one piece of elm timber of the value of one shilling, the property of William Kenrick, esq., on his examination now taken before me, saith, That he is not guilty of the offence aforesaid, though the piece of timber was on his (the Examinant's) premises; but how it came there, he this Examinant doth not know.
"JOHN FRANKS."
During Franks's imprisonment for trial, did you receive a letter from Mr. Kenrick, respecting the stopping of the prosecution?—I did.
Will you produce the letter. [The Witness produced the same, and it was read as follows:]
"Dear Sir;—I wish to have a little of your advice, arising from your practical knowledge as clerk of the peace. John Franks was committed by Mr. Burges, of Ryegate, for stealing a plank, valued at one shilling, from me, a day or two after the late sessions, and of course has been in gaol nearly three months, a punish-

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ment perhaps sufficient for such an offence. The man has, I learned, behaved very well since he has been in gaol. He has a large family, and is a member, and has been some time so, of a benefit club, the advantage of which, by one of their rules, he would forfeit on a conviction of felony. The facts are so short, and so very clear against him, that such conviction must I think follow. Though I cannot speak in favour of his character, I believe the confinement he has suffered will operate as much, and perhaps more in his reformation, than any further punishment the court might be disposed to award; and I am unwilling to inflict upon him and upon his family, for so it would be, the further consequential punishment of forfeiting the benefit he may be entitled to from his club, if I could avoid it. I do not know if Mr. Burges has returned to you the recognizances. Would the court, upon this statement, permit me to decline prosecuting, and cancel the recognizances? Would you enclose this to lord Middleton, or should I ask Mr. Burges to withdraw or not return the recognizances? I am desirous the man should not be punished beyond what he ought, and am willing to take any course it may be thought proper. I shall probably see Mr. Burges at the bench on Tuesday, after I get your answer, if you write by Monday's post.
"Yours truly,
"Broom, Dorking. W. KENRICK."
Did you transmit that letter to lord Middle-ton?—I did.
Lord Middleton was the chairman of the sessions, was he not?—He was.
Did you receive an answer from lord Middleton?—I received an immediate answer from lord Middleton.
In the negative?—Yes.
And you communicated that to Mr. Kenrick?—I did.
[The Witness was directed to withdraw.]
Mr. Gurney stated, that he had now concluded the evidence he proposed to adduce, and that he was desirous, either at the present or a future time, to address a few observations on behalf of Mr. Kenrick.
Mr. Denmanapprehended, it would be infinitely better if the observations of his learned friend at the bar should be reserved until the evidence had been in the hands of members.
Dr. Phillimoreconcurred in the propriety of the course marked out by the learned gentleman.
The Chairmanthen asked the learned counsel whether they meant to produce any other evidence?
Mr. Gurneyhaving replied in the negative, counsel were ordered to withdraw. The House resumed; the chairman reported progress; minutes of evidence were ordered to be printed; and
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the report was ordered to be taken into consideration on Tuesday.

NAVY ESTIMATES.
On the order of the day for going into a committee on the Navy Estimates,
Mr. Humesaid, it appeared to him that the House was proceeding much too rapidly with respect to these estimates. He well knew, if ministers persevered in the course of expenditure which they had pursued for the last few years, the country would be little able to bear it, in the new circumstances in which it was placed. The House should be made acquainted with the amount which would be necessary for the army, navy, ordnance, and other establishments; as the amount of the last year had greatly exceeded those of former years. It might not be improper to recall the attention of the House to the fact, that in 1816, a committee had sat, composed, he might say, of his majesty's ministers—called the Finance Committee, and had reported, that the amount of the expenditure of the said establishments, after paying two millions to the India company, would not exceed 17,350,000 l. It would be recollected, that the late lord Castlereagh had confidently pledged himself and the ministers, that after the arduous struggle in which the country had been engaged, the public expenditure should be reduced to the lowest, after 1818, and the committee had reported that 17,350,000 l. would be adequate to a permanent establishment. It would be well for the House to inquire how things had been managed since; for they would scarcely believe, that each succeeding year had surpassed the expenses of the former; and that it was now three or four millions above that estimate. In 1818, the estimates were confidently stated to be 17,350,000 l.; but on referring to the actual expenditure of that year, it would be found to amount to 19,136,000 l. The next year it was 19,280,000 l. In 1820, it was 19,280,000 l. In 1821, it was about 20,000,000 l., and at that rate it has continued. Now, if any effectual relief was to be afforded to the country, it must be begun by reducing the establishments. The most effectual strength of the country was the navy; but he thought it would be injudicious to add to its numbers without diminishing the army, which was three millions more than the finance committee considered would be sufficient to maintain a permanent

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establishment. He thought the House was not in a condition to go into a committee, until the chancellor of the Exchequer had stated the amount of the resources of the country, and what taxes he meant to reduce; for it was not possible for the country to sustain the same load of taxation in a metallic currency, as it had done in a paper one. He should have been very glad if the right hon. gentleman had brought forward the whole of his financial statement at once. He trusted the House would not suffer itself to be led away any longer by flattering and delusive statements, which ultimately turned out to be nothing but mere words. Ministers had told us, in his majesty's Speech, that professions of friendship and amity had been received from all foreign courts. If this was the fact, surely, especially when we took into consideration our insulated situation, there was no need for our keeping up, at such an enormous expense, such large military and naval establishments. Last year we had 29,000 seamen; this year it was proposed to add another thousand; whereas, the number appointed by the finance committee as a sufficient peace establishment, was only 19,000. If we went on in this way, it was quite impossible that our finances could ever recover, or that we could ever be prepared to carry on an effective war. No naval establishment in the world amounted to one-half of our own. What was the navy of the United States, from which we were constantly told we had so much to fear? Why, the number of line-of-battle ships in the American navy was only seven, whereas the number of our ships of war was 509. Surely, then, we ought to pause before we added to our expenditure in this department. For his part, he would not consent to vote a single man or a single pound until the chancellor of the Exchequer had made a statement of the revenue and the expenditure. It should be recollected that, en a former occasion, ministers, after stating that it was quite impossible for them to make any reduction in their military establishment, had, of their own accord, when they found the revenue insufficient for the support of it, made a reduction in it, of from ten to twelve thousand men. Our army might, without any danger to the country, be decreased one-third, and then we might well afford to keep up a respectable naval establishment. He would move, by way
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of amendment, "That it is desirable, before the House should vote any part of the naval and military establishments for the year, that the extent of those establishments, and the estimates of them, should be laid before the House, particularly as the naval estimates for this year exceed in amount those of the last year."
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the only mode the House had to determine why it was that the estimates of the present year exceeded those of the last, was by going into a committee of supply, in which his hon. friend (sir G. Clerk) would explain them, item by item. Although, for the last few years, he had felt it due to the public convenience to give as early an explanation as he could of the state of the finances of the country, yet he had never supposed the House would have been precluded from pursuing the usual course of going into a committee of supply for the purpose of inquiring whether the amount proposed ought to be voted. If the House were to abstain from investigating the estimates, item by item, until he had made his general statement of the finances of the country, it would be imposing on him a task which he should be unable to perform; for he must, in that case, take upon himself to explain the duties of his hon. friend near him, and of those other hon. friends who were engaged in the various public departments. It would be the most inconvenient course possible, and, in fact, was calculated to throw obstacles in the way of the views of the hon. member himself. If when the different items were explained to the committee by the head of the department to which they belonged, they were not explained in a satisfactory manner, the committee could reject them. The usual practice appeared to him to be at once the most convenient and the most salutary; and he therefore could not acquiesce in any proposal for departing from it.
Colonel Daviescontended, that it was the duty of the House to make the government reduce its establishments, in order to secure a reduction of taxation. It was possible, that when these estimates were produced, he should give them his support, for they related to a branch of the public service towards which he, is common with every man, was disposed to act liberally. He was anxious to support the navy upon every occasion, as it was

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the right arm of our strength, and the chief source of our glory. If the military establishment were not less for the present year than it was for the last, he should certainly move for a considerable reduction of it.
Mr. Brightcalled upon ministers to take the state of the country into immediate consideration. He took the present opportunity of protesting against their inactivity, in order that he might not, on some future occasion, be blamed for having participated in it. Indeed, if some explanation were not given before the House resolved itself into the committee, he did not know whether he should not be provoked to create an opportunity for delivering his own sentiments upon the present condition of the nation. The right hon. gentleman had stated, that it would be inconsistent with the ordinary practice of parliament, if, when he entered into his financial statements, he were to go into the estimates point by point. Did, then, the right hon. gentleman mean to put off his statement till all the estimates were voted? The sum voted as a supply might not be such as he proposed; and therefore it was necessary for the House to know how to apportion it to the different branches of the public service. The estimates Ought to be examined in detail, with a view of making every possible reduction in them. He doubted much whether the revenue, under the new system of currency which was going to be introduced, could be raised to any thing like its old amount. Sure he was, that the proposed alteration in the circulating medium would cause great heart-burning in the collection of the ordinary taxes of the country.
Mr. Hutchinsonsupported the amendment. The going into a committee upon the estimates without having an account of the financial state of the country, appeared to him to be as absurd as it would be for a gentleman to order a carriage and horses, without knowing what fortune he had to support it. Ministers acted as if they wished to pledge the House to support a certain amount of expenditure, without allowing it to judge of its means of meeting it.
Mr. Humesaid, that ministers, at the commencement of every year called on the heads of their different establishments to give them an account of the sums they wanted for the ensuing year, in
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order that they might lay them before the House within fourteen days after the meeting of parliament. Now, what he wanted ministers to do was this—before the House voted away any sums to one department, to let it know what the estimates for the whole year would amount to. It would then be able to decide what part of its funds it ought to apportion to the supply of the navy. If 17,000,000 l. were the sum agreed upon for the service of the year, they could then determine whether it was right to vote 6,000,000 l. to the navy, and 8 or 9,000,000 l. to the army. At present, the House had not the necessary data to decide upon the proportions.
Mr. Secretary Canningobserved, that whatever might be the distress of the country, he could see no reason why hon. gentlemen should set themselves in array against the forms of parliament, and should insist that business should be transacted in a different mode from that in which it had been transacted for ages. He believed that never, on any account, had there been any deviation from the course which government had proposed that night to take; that never, not merely since the Revolution, but before it, in the most turbulent times, had a vote been taken in objection to the Speaker's leaving the chair, when the purpose of it was to vote a supply in committee for the navy; and that never had such a demand been made upon any head of a department as that which had just been made on his hon. friend, to open his statement of the estimates before he went into the committee, where alone that statement could be productive of any practical result. The House went into a committee, in order that explanations might be asked and given of the different items in the estimates, without infringing upon the usual orders of the House; and the hon. member now asked, that for the first time these explanations should be given in the House itself; and because he had a speech within him, which he had declared his intention if provoked, to make, now called upon them to depart from their usual custom of voting each of the estimates separately in a committee. He would rather hear his speech now, and then go into the committee, than depart from the ancient and long-established practice of parliament. But, said another hon. gentleman, would it be right for a man to keep a house in town and another in the country, without

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first examining into the amount of income he had to meet such an expenditure? The allusion, he conceived, to be ill chosen. For, in this case the man's books were forthcoming, to prove that he had supported a similar expenditure before. Besides, the house in the country might be considered as a sort of luxury; whereas what was now wanted was absolutely necessary to the defence of the country. If his servant were to tell him, that he wanted locks for his doors in order to secure his properly, he would order them to be got, without making a previous inquiry into the general state of his affairs. So he would advise the House to act upon this occasion. The grant of these estimates was necessary to the defence of the country. He admitted, that the situation of the country was such as to require serious attention and deliberation; but, he would never admit that it was in such a condition, that its? ordinary establishments could not be maintained, and that it was in such danger that the ordinary forms of parliament must be dispensed with. He should be sorry that the House should come to a division on this point; because the construction put upon such a division out of doors would be, that it was a sign of irritated opposition, which, as the hon. member's speech was not an angry speech, he did not believe had any existence in his mind. He therefore hoped that the hon. member would waive his opposition, and that he would consent to gain in the committee that information which, according to all prior usage, could be given in the committee alone.
Mr. C. F. Palmerthought that government should ascertain the effect of the alteration in the currency before it proceeded to levy taxes on the country. He asked, whether the salaries of certain functionaries filling high public situations, had not been raised in the course of the last year; and if so, whether they would not be still further raised, in consequence of the alterations which were now making in a depreciated currency?
Mr. Humesaid, he was so far from being actuated by any angry feeling, that he would not press his amendment to a division. If his proposition went to introduce a new practice into the House, he was not aware of it. At any rate, whether new or not, he thought it highly advantageous to the public service.
The amendment was then negatived,
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and the House having resolved itself into the committee of supply,
Sir George Clerksaid, that it now became his duty to explain to the committee why the navy estimates of this year were greater than those of the last. He expressed a hope that he should be able to satisfy the hon. member for Aberdeen, that the navy estimates of the present year were drawn up with every attention to economy, which the safety and the honour of the country admitted. The hon. member upon this occasion, as upon many others, had referred to the opinion given by the committee of finance in 1817, as to the requisite magnitude of our naval force, and had contrasted the navy estimates of that year with the navy estimates of the present. Now, upon that head, he would say, that owing to the great extension of our commerce with the nations of South America, the calls on the Admiralty for ships of war to afford it protection had very much increased; and that with the force now voted, the Admiralty had not been able to meet the demands which had been made upon it from several quarters to send an adequate force into all those seas. The committee would recollect, that there was no part of South America with which we did not trade at present. The unsettled situation of those states, arising partly from their struggle with their mother country, and partly from their jealousy of each other, rendered it absolutely necessary for this country to have an adequate naval force on the coasts of all of them, to guard our commerce from the insults to which it would otherwise be infallibly subjected. The hon. member for Aberdeen had stated, that the increase in our naval establishment had been occasioned by a corresponding increase in. the navy of the United States. To that statement he must give an unqualified denial. The increase in our navy, since 1821, was occasioned by the increase of our commerce with South America. Its unsettled condition, which had been felt by the United States, by France, and by every naval power which had any commerce at all, had rendered an augmentation necessary in the naval force of each state. For the same reason, a necessity for increasing our force in the Mediterranean had risen out of the war now raging between the Greeks and the Turks. If we had not had a considerable naval force in that sea, we should have suffered

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numerous insults from both the belligerents, of which ministers, had they taken place, would have heard pretty loudly in that House. The situation of the Spanish West-India islands, also, required the presence of a force to put down the practical squadrons which had recently cruised in their neighbourhood; and though, by the conjoint efforts of our own navy and that of the United States, they had recently been driven into holes and corners, still they were not exterminated; and if we diminished our force, they would soon recommence the depredations we had stopped. A large force was also stationed off the coast of Africa, to put down the traffic in slaves, and another for the same purpose, off the island of Cuba. If the committee, therefore, would consider the various calls which were made upon the Admiralty, it would see, that a force of 29,000 men was scarcely sufficient for the service. For the present year, a force of 30,000 men was deemed absolutely necessary. A requisition had been presented to the Admiralty from the East India company, praying that an additional naval force might be sent into the Indian seas, on account of the hostilities which now raged between the Burman empire and the East India company. A thousand men was the force required by them. As that force was sent into the Indian seas, not to protect British commerce, but to assist the East India company and to secure their territory, an arrangement was now in progress, by which the greater part of the expense of providing for it would be thrown upon the company. They were to furnish the sum of 60,000 l. for that purpose; but as some additional powers would be wanted, to enable them to complete that arrangement, the mode in which they were to pay it would be explained on the introduction of the necessary bill. The amount of the estimates for the present year showed an excess above those of the last, of 180,000 l. One cause of this increase was the additional force of 1,000 men. Another cause was, that the expense of victualling the navy had increased, in consequence of the advanced price of all kinds of provisions, and particularly of Irish pork and beef, of which the consumption was very considerable. An increase of 3s. a month in the victualling of each man had therefore become necessary; and thus notwithstanding the victualling of the navy was conducted
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with the utmost economy, an increase had been caused of nearly 100,000 l. on these two heads of expenditure. The expense of the civil establishments of the navy had not increased. On the contrary, in some respects, it had considerably diminished. Indeed, he had no hesitation in saying, that had it not been for the additional force of 1000 men, and the increased price of provisions, the estimates for this year would have been much lower than for the last. Gentlemen would observe, that a change had been made in the drawing up the estimates. Under the first head of expenditure the vote for wages, for victuals, for wear and tear, and for ordnance, had generally been included. Neither of the two latter items of expenditure were found under that head in the estimates of the present year; and he would state the reason why. The sum voted for wear and tear was supposed to be expended on behalf of the ships which were actually afloat, and was calculated at so much a head. An objection had been made by the hon. member for Aberdeen to this mode of calculation. He had stated, that it was absurd to calculate the wear and tear by so much a head, instead of calculating it by the stores consumed. As soon as the objection was made, it was thought advisable to remedy the evil, and bring it entirely under the head of stores. There was this year a diminution of 320,000 l. under the head of wear and tear. Under the head of ordnance there was a considerable increase; but, in the two articles of wear and tear, and of ordnance put together, there was a saving of 30,000 l. With regard to the head of ordnance of the navy, as it was a matter over which the navy board had no control, it had been omitted in these estimates, and would be moved for when the ordnance estimates were brought forward. He did not think it necessary to say any thing on the ordinary estimates of the navy, as they were the same as last year. Ministers had reduced them to the lowest possible scale; and a proof of it was, that, with a force of 30,000 men our expenditure would not be greater than in 1821, when we had only a force of 23,000 men. There was one item which was inserted in these estimates for the first time for some years, and that was an item for the building of ships at Bombay. After the year 1822, this item had disappeared from the list; but the quality of the Indian timber had been found so ex-

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cellent, the labour so cheap, and the workmanship so completely equal to that of our dockyards at home, that it had been deemed expedient to continue the building of vessels at Bombay. In the extra-estimates would be found an account of the sums to be expended upon works of the yards. He had stated on a former occasion, respecting the works at Sheerness, that if government were provided with funds to finish them in four instead of ten years, it would make about a saving of 14 per cent to the public. The cost of erecting the proposed works had been calculated by the late Mr. Rennie at 921,000 l., but an offer had since been made to government, to complete them in four years for 780,000 l. The plan containing that offer appeared so beneficial to the public, that government had no hesitation in acceding to it; so that, instead of calling on the committee for the vote originally mentioned for this head of expense, he should call upon it this year for a vote for 150,000 l. There was an item of 50,000 l. for completing the works of the Break-water, on which it was found necessary to employ a greater number of men than had yet been employed there. Under these two heads there was an increase of 181,000 l. in the estimates. This, added to the increase of nearly 100,000 l. for which he had before accounted, made a total increase of 281,000 l.; from this was to be deducted a sum of 94,000 l. voted on account of the ordnance stores last year, and not yet expended; so that the real increase of expense to the country, after making allowance for the ordnance, &c. would leave the estimates of the year greater than those of the last by 180,000 l. The whole of this increase arose from the necessity of employing 1,000 additional men, from the increase in the price of provisions, and from the necessity of proceeding with their engagements at Sheerness more rapidly than was originally expected. That rapidity was rendered the more necessary by a great part of the works being at present under water, and therefore in a state very liable to be injured by violent winds or high tides. The hon. member concluded by moving, "That 30,000 men be employed for the sea service, from the 1st of January 1826, including 9,000 royal marines."
Mr. Humeobserved, that it was difficult for him to say whether 29,000 or 30,000 men were the exact number required for the sea-service. He should not, therefore,
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object so much to the number of men employed, as to the amount of expenditure contained in these estimates. He was convinced that; there must be something radically wrong in it, from finding that, at former periods of our history, we had kept up a much larger navy at one-third less expense. It was easy to say, that the navy was an important branch of the public service, and therefore ought not to be neglected. He admitted that it was important; but still it was only important in, degree. When he objected to the increase of our naval force three years ago, the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs said, that it was impossible to protect our commerce with the states of South America without a large disposable force, on account of the unsettled nature of their governments, and their war with the parent state. That consideration induced the House to acquiesce in that increase. He was now surprised at hearing the same cause alleged for another increase, when these states were at peace with one another, their struggle with the parent state at an end, and three distinct treaties of peace had been made between us and them. But it was said, that the presence of a large naval force was required in the Mediterranean. He did not think so: he had never yet heard of any English vessel having been either plundered or stopped by either Greeks or Turks, except when they were dealing in articles contraband of war. But then, the revenue at home required protection. And why did it? Because they kept up a system of high duties, and so spent in maintaining the preventive service a sum larger than that which would have been lost to the revenue by establishing a system of low duties. He thought that, by a reduction of duties, an end might not only be put to the smuggling which now existed on our coast, but also a saving be effected to the nation of 500,000 l. The keeping up a naval squadron on the coast of Africa, which was the grave of our brave seamen, for the purpose of suppressing the slave trade, appeared to him, though the object was certainly laudable, to be a measure that ought to be dispensed with: of every negro whom they intercepted, for they could not save them from slavery, the purchase was the life of an English sailor. On the whole, he thought that 30,000 men were not wanted for the service of the navy. The flag of Great Britain would be as much respected at the mast-head of

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a frigate, as on that of a ship of the line. If the estimates were increased in one item, on account of the increased price of provisions, there were other items on which they might be diminished. If they were not, they would go on increasing as they had done year after year, till they would soon become ten millions instead of six. The want of economy was an addition to the difficulties of the country. Let but a gun be fired in hostility against us, and government would soon discover the situation to which they had reduced the country by the neglect of its finances.—He proceeded to point out the great increase which had taken place in the half-pay and pension list since 1817, and to infer from that increase, that there was great abuse in the management of it. Any officer who had not parliamentary interest, found great difficulty in getting promotion; and any officer who had, was promoted up to a certain grade, and then placed on the half-pay list to make room for others. It appeared by the estimates, that there were already 250 ships more than the finances of the country were enabled to man; and he therefore thought that it was a mere waste of money to promote so many officers as had lately been raised. The consequence of that increase was also objectionable in another point of view: by adding to the amount of the half-pay, it augmented the dead weight, as it was very properly called. By the estimates which had been formed of that payment, it ought to have been reduced from 1,100,000 l. to 550,000 l.; but, so far from this being the case, the sum paid to pensioners now was 300,000 l. more than it had been at the end of the war. Surely no gentlemen would gravely say that such a state of things as this ought to be tolerated. In the year 1822, in consequence of the very strong representations which had been made in that House, a reduction had taken place in the salaries of the civil officers of the establishments, and they amounted then to 714,000 l. In the present year, however, an increase appeared to have taken place, and the same salaries were 789,000 l. The charge for the half-pay of 896,000 l. was, as he had often observed before, when alluding to that item, quite enormous, and might, he really believed, be very much reduced under a better system, if the Admiralty were compelled to make selections from that list for the public service. In the superannuation allowance, he would not
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say any thing else, than that a great portion of the sum was money actually wasted. He did not mean to assert, that there were not many highly deserving individuals who had honestly earned that bounty; but, if any man would look back to the estimate of 1817, which was only 85,000 l., and consider that they were now called upon to vote 164,000 l. for the same allowance, they must agree that it was a very lavish expenditure. As long, however, as they continued to allow the Admiralty to make promotions in the manner they did at present, they could not expect any reduction, but rather that they should every year be called upon to vote even larger sums for the superannuation list. In the marines, where there had been little or no new promotions since the termination of the war, large reductions had been, of course, effected under the head of "Superannuation," and yet he believed the marines were as effective as any corps in the service. If the Admiralty were restricted as to the promotions in the navy, they would soon find a similar result in the Superannuation list of that branch of the service. In the same manner, under the head of Pursers, they would find that the absence of promotion had effected a similar reduction, and he had no hesitation in again asserting, that if the same rule was applied to the other part of the navy establishments, instead of being called upon to vote 1,388,000 l., they might be able to discharge all demands with 560,000 l. The next estimate was a sum of 1,980,000 l. for building and repairs of shipping, and the supply of stores for the navy. Of that sum, 1,395,000 l. had been expended upon building and repairing alone. He had, on a former occasion, shown, very satisfactorily, from returns on the table of the House, that a sum of seventeen millions had been expended upon that branch of the service alone, since the conclusion of the war; and that the sum total for building, repairing, and providing of stores for the navy, amounted to twenty-three millions—a sum sufficient for the full support of two navies, such as the country required. Instead of keeping up a navy of 500 ships, of all sizes, which required a million sterling to supply its losses, and three or four hundred thousand pounds for wear and tear; instead of supporting an establishment of that kind, which, whatever they might daily hear of its sound and

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efficient state, he thought could only, in the present state of the country, be kept to rot; it would be well to consider, whether it was right to support them at all, or whether they would eventually be found as beneficial in case of war. If it cost now above six millions to keep only 130 of these ships in commission, what sum, he would ask, would it require to fit out the five hundred, if they were once more called into action? Was the country in a state to admit of such an outlay? They never could repay in value the sums which were wasted upon them; and he would humbly submit, that the best policy in their present state, would be, to keep the vessels they now possessed in an efficient state, and give up that rash and improvident system of building new ones, which were only destined, like their predecessors, to rot in the dock-yards. He should be glad to see the attention of the Admiralty turned to the recent discoveries which had been made respecting steam-vessels used as ships of war; and to consider, that in the event of this country being engaged in war, a great change must of necessity take place, by which many of our ships would be rendered wholly useless. Upon this subject he could assure the House, that the expenses which were constantly incurred were, in the opinion of persons well qualified to judge, a downright waste. The expenses of improving and finishing the dock-yards at Sheerness would amount to little less than 2,000,000 l. The estimate for this year alone amounted to 50,000 l. It had been admitted, that if the use of steam-boats in taking vessels up and down the river had been known, these works would not have been begun. But surely, now that the advantages of steam-boats were duly appreciated, the extensive dock-yards at Chatham might be appropriated for all the necessary purposes; and as there was no longer any difficulty in taking ships thither, it could not be prudent to throw away this 150,000 l. at Sheerness. He was not sure that the accounts contained any other items which required a particular notice. The aggregate amount appeared to be 6,135,000 l., which he thought a great deal too large at this time. In 1792, the character of the British navy had been no less high, nor was it less respected abroad than at the present moment, and then one-fourth of its present number of ships had been found enough for all useful purposes. He took it to be
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a most unsatisfactory reason to say, that the protection of the revenue required this expense: if that were true, it would be better, in every other as well as in a pecuniary point of view, to alter the laws, so as to prevent the necessity of any such extraordinary protection. He saw there was a charge for hired packets, and this charge was connected with the Post-office department. He thought these two establishments ought to be kept entirely separate, and that the House ought to see distinctly what was paid for the Navy, and what for the Post-office.—He was sorry to have taken up so much of the time of the committee, but he thought it necessary to express his disapprobation of the estimates, because he was convinced they were such as the state of Europe did not require. He disapproved also of the manner in which promotions had been made in the course of the last year, and of the number of those promotions. By increasing the number of pensions it added to the dead weight, and would continue to do so, while the present establishment should be kept up. The officers themselves were dissatisfied at the unfairness and hardships which they experienced in having young men, who had no other claim to promotion than their family influence, raised above them, and being thus deprived of the rank and advantages to which their long services entitled them. He trusted that ministers would do something to check the injurious system which prevailed, and that they would be convinced of the inutility of promoting so many officers. He did not know how many promotions had taken place this year, but he believed the numbers were between 500 and 600. Many persons, he knew, were of opinion, that promotions should go on; he thought that if they did, they should at least go on very slowly. All the promotions should be made on account of long services alone; and in time of peace, no new ones should take place.
Sir G. Clerksaid, he had no wish to complain either of the statements which had just been made by the hon. member, or of the manner in which he had brought them forward; for he had done no more than what he conceived to be his duty, in directing the attention of the committee to such matters. The hon. gentleman had objected to the aggregate amount of the half-pay and pension charge, as being this year excessive, instead of exhibiting

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a decrease. Now, taking the whole of the half-pay, he would admit that this charge had increased; but if the hon. gentleman alluded to the half-pay of officers, he would find that, in truth, a material reduction in the amount had taken place. The increase was in the civil class of the half-pay; and it was great undoubtedly, owing to two causes. The first of these was the material reduction of official establishments which took place in 1822, when a vast number of clerks in particular departments of the public service, connected with the navy were discharged. None but the ablest and the most efficient clerks, in many instances, were retained; but they who were so discharged, had the strongest claims on account of their long services, upon the consideration of government. Another cause, which had swelled this aggregate to its present amount, had been the great diminution of the funds for the Widows' pension. During the war, large contributions were levied on the pay of officers and crews of ships, and to such an amount, that no calls were made on the public bounty. But now, from obvious causes, these funds had become much exhausted; and the consequence was, that a charge of 90,000 l. appeared in these estimates for that item alone, which had not appeared in the former estimates to which the hon. gentleman referred. For the same reasons, Greenwich Hospital, which, in war-time, had contributed to these objects very large sums of money, accruing from unclaimed pay, wages and prize-shares, had now become dried up. And though parliament had directed, that the funds in question should contribute to the payment of these services, as long as they lasted, still, when they became so far extinct as to furnish sufficient only for the payment of in-door pensioners, &c, it became necessary to apply to this House for the means of replacing them. The item of "Greenwich Hospital" was 260,000 l.; and if the hon. gentleman would add this sum, and the deficiencies he had spoken of, together, he would see they amounted to about 400,000 l.; which amount he would, of course, take into account, as forming a large portion of the excess of charge that he complained of. In the half-pay of officers there was a decided decrease of charge. As to what the hon. gentleman had said, respecting promotions, the marines were, in this respect, quite a different service from the navy.
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In the latter, commissions were granted to lieutenants, who must have already passed through a long period of service: in the marines, they were given to individuals without regard to the same conditions of previous service. It was impossible to stop promotion in the navy for several reasons. Many of those promotions took place on foreign stations, and were but a moderate reward for the services of persons who were induced principally by the chance of promotion to go to the coast of Africa and other unhealthy climates. If the chance of promotion did not exist, it would be difficult to find persons to go on such hazardous service. The hon. member had also said, that there was a great increase in the item for salaries for clerks in the civil departments of the navy. The hon. member must have known that those clerks were entitled to a small progressive increase of salary, and if he had taken the trouble to look into the subject, he would have discovered that this circumstance, and nothing else, was the cause of the increase of the item alluded to. The hon. gentleman, in alluding to the million which he supposed was paid for building and repairs, had fallen into an error similar to that which the lion. Secretary for the Admiralty had set him right about some time ago. He was, however, happy to say, notwithstanding the hon. gentleman's misinformation on this subject, that at no period of the history of this country had the ships in ordinary been in a better state than they were at present, and that being repaired with seasoned timber, they had shown no symptoms of the ravages of the dry-rot. A great expense was necessarily incurred for the purpose of keeping the ships in repair; but it was an expense which was wholly unavoidable. The hon. member had objected to the works going on at Sheerness, now that steamboats would answer all the purposes for which those works had been undertaken. He would give the hon. member the benefit of his argument, which only amounted to this, that by transferring the vessels from Sheerness to Chatham, the establishments at Chatham must be increased. By having those docks at Sheerness, an opportunity offered of putting every ship into dock, and of inspecting them in every part. The hon. member had complained of the expenditure of two millions upon those docks; but, when the hon. member made that com-

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plaint, he ought to have remembered, that this work was undertaken for the purpose of saving a sum of ten millions, the estimated expense of works proposed to be erected at Northfleet. He should only further observe, that if unfortunately this country should be again involved in hostilities, it would be found that advantage had been taken of every invention necessary to maintain the naval superiority of Great Britain.
After a short conversation, the several resolutions were agreed to.

PROMISSORY NOTES BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose to move the order of the day for the second reading of this bill. Before he did so, he wished to state to the House, that it was his intention, in the committee, to submit a proposition, not to the extent suggested by the hon. member for Newton (Mr. Hudson Gurney), which he thought went too far, but a modification of it. The proposition of the hon. member was, if he understood him right, that the circulation of small notes should be prohibited to the country banks, and yet the issue should be permanently allowed to the Bank of England. Now, this proposition would be very unjust to the country banks, and inconsistent with the whole principle of the measure. But, it had been represented to him, that a limitation of that proposition, so far from impeding the measure, would promote its success. It was his intention, therefore, to propose, that instead of prohibiting the Bank of England from issuing small notes dated subsequently to the 5th of February last, it should be left to them to issue such notes dated previous to the 10th of October next. The object of this proposition was, to give the country bankers facilities for preparing themselves for the effects of the bill, and the gradual withdrawal of their notes. It had been stated, that the greatest possible inconvenience would arise, if all the small notes were completely withdrawn at one moment. When the bill came into the committee, he should propose that there should be such a limitation as he had stated. He should, however, propose, that the notes of the Bank of England should be finally withdrawn, at the same time as those of the country banks.
Mr. Elliceasked, what great relief was to be afforded by this- alteration, and Whether it was not, in fact, an abandon-
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ment of the main principle of the bill? And was this to be the result after all their anxiety to get the small notes out of circulation, and after all the executions at Newgate? There was no boon in the proposed change; it was a paltry alteration. He had been desirous not to discuss this question, so as to excite any popular feeling, especially when the country was in such difficulties; but, after the communication that had just been made, he could not avoid speaking of it as a paltry proceeding. A superior necessity had occasioned the recent issue of Bank of England small notes: to that necessity he bowed; but, after what had been promised, he did not expect this alteration, and thought the directors deserved to be arraigned for their conduct. He called upon the House to consider what they were about. Would they, or would they not, put down the evil which, by the gigantic rapidity of its advances, had brought the country to the brink of destruction? What was the paltry consideration that was to induce the House to abandon the original principle of the bill? For his part, he would not lend his humble countenance to such deviation, but would, even if he stood alone, divide the House upon the subject. It became the House to show the country that, however pressing might be the difficulties, they were resolved to surmount them by steadiness and discretion, rather than suffer themselves to be led into an abandonment of those principles which they proposed as the groundwork of a remedy to the existing evils.
Mr. Brightsaid, he felt strongly for the distresses under which the country continued to labour; and would ask, were not he and his friends fully justified in voting against the bill? Were not he and his hon. friends justified in asking, whether the present was a proper time for the introduction of such a measure? Were they not justified in having voted against it, under the existing circumstances of the country? Were they not justified in the belief which they had expressed, that ministers could not carry it? Were they not justified in their assertion, that it was impossible that the country could bear the operation of the bill? Were they not justified in stating that, taxed and impoverished as they were, the people ought not to be additionally distressed by the withdrawal of the small-note currency? He had already declared his intention of

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accusing ministers of supineness, during the late distress, and had asserted that the measures proposed were not adequate to meet the existing difficulties. On what principle, he would ask, had the Bank of England been instructed by government to buy up Exchequer-bills within these three days? For the benefit of the public he would be told; but that was not the effect which that extraordinary proceeding was calculated to produce. Nothing but a large issue of Exchequer-bills could relieve the distress which prevailed at present; and, moreover, that distress was not confined to one class of persons. The stock-broker might, it was true, be relieved by that operation; but the regular, fair, honourable merchant, who was a much more important member of the community, would derive no benefit from it. There were other classes, too—the small trader, and those immediately connected with him—whose sufferings should be taken into consideration; and it was the duty of the House to provide funds to enable them to carry on their business. He would again complain, that ministers were inactive and supine, and, if they intended to continue to administer the affairs of the country, they must change their mode of proceeding, and become more active. He had hoped they would have profited by the recollection of what had been done by their predecessors in 1793, and the report of which lay upon the table of the House; by a reference to which, the strong analogy between the circumstances of that time and the present would be found. What did Mr. Pitt do, at that period, at the recommendation of the merchants? He issued a small number of Exchequer-bills, and the evils were cured; cured too, not merely without loss, but with absolute profit to the Treasury. The distress at both periods being the same in principle, the same principle of relief should be afforded. Why should we now adopt new expedients? Why not profit by the experience and the wisdom of our ancestors? He was no speculatist, no theorist. He disliked the fashionable philosophy of the day, and called on the House to adopt the wise measure of Mr. Pitt. He should not have risen, but was driven to it by the jibes of the right hon. gentleman opposite. He should reserve the rest of his argument for another day.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, he was not at a loss to account for the extreme degree of heat
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displayed by the hon. member for Bristol; for, if the arguments which he had reserved for another day, were not of a better and more wholesome nature than those of which he had delivered himself, he was not surprised at their sitting so heavily and unpleasantly upon him; for, he would say, a speech more inconsistent, more directly opposed to sound reason, than that of the hon. member, had never been made in that House. The hon. member blamed ministers for their supineness at the period of the late distress, and then, when he found that they were about to bring forward a remedy, he proposed the appointment of a committee to inquire into the state of the country; and no sooner had he said so, but he told the House what he himself would do, without any committee at all. He next found fault with the prohibition of small-note currency, and in the same breath condemned the issue of small notes by the Bank. He blamed government for having directed the Bank to buy up the Exchequer-bills, and increased thereby the distress; and the next moment he said to them, "Issue a large number of Exchequer-bills, and you will effectually remove the existing evils." Where were purchasers to be found for those millions of bills which the hon. gentleman would thus throw into the market? No where, but in the hon. gentleman's own imagination. So that he condemned government for having, within a few days, bought up Exchequer-bills, they being then at a discount, and at the same time called for an extended issue of them. He should leave the learned member for Bristol to reconcile these inconsistencies. The hon. member for Coventry also had lost his usual placidity. He talked of impeaching the Bank directors for having lately reissued one and two pound notes. Now, he had yet to learn, why a body of men, authorized by the legislature to do an act, should be impeached for doing that which the law entitled them; and he thought it would require all the legal acumen even of the learned member for Bristol to draw up the articles of impeachment.
Mr. Ellice.—I never used the word impeach. I said arraign.
Mr. Huskisson—Well, arraign let it be; but let the House inquire what had been the conduct of those individuals. The moment the Bank directors found themselves in possession of a sufficient quantity of gold coin to supply the place of their

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small paper, they withdrew their one-pound notes from circulation. Did that look like a desire to force them into circulation? On the contrary, so well were they satisfied with the results of the step they had taken—so strong was their recollection of past difficulties, and of the thousand unpleasant circumstances attendant upon the existence of a small-note currency—that, so far from wishing to send their one and two pound notes again into circulation, they were most anxious, as their conduct had evinced, to withdraw them entirely. The hon. gentleman came down on one night and arraigned the government, and the next he inveighed against the Bank; but, he would ask the hon. gentleman, whether he really thought he had any grounds for those attacks? for it must be apparent, that, as far as the Bank was concerned, they had, in order to supply the vacuum created by the withdrawal of the country notes, issued a certain number of one and two pound notes, and they had no possible objection to withdraw them. It was reported to government, that the country banks were suddenly withdrawing their small notes, and it was to meet the want that would thus be created, that the proposed alteration was intended. He assured the hon. member for Coventry, that he could not be more anxious than he himself was, to make the pressure that would ensue from the withdrawal of the small notes operate as evenly as possible. If danger could be apprehended from that being done too suddenly, the House would give great facility to its own object, by averting that danger. There was this great difference between the two hon. gentlemen: one said, that the whole issues ought to be withdrawn, no matter what might be the consequence; the other said, "you never can withdraw them at all." He was quite sure, notwithstanding all that had been said to the contrary, that the metallic currency would, in a very short period, entirely supersede the dreadful issue of small notes.
Sir J. Wrottesleysaid, he was apprehensive that the incidental wants of the country would oblige ministers to abandon their original principle, and that when they should have abandoned their principle, his hon. friends, of the philosophic club behind him, would come down upon them. Do what they would, ministers could not please. The system of going on upon principle and theory was to him so novel
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and extraordinary, that he found a difficulty in conforming to it. In after-years, when the history of this country should be narrated, it would be said, "This little island was originally called Lilliput, and it was then governed by dwarfs; it next assumed the name of Brobdignag, under the sway of giants. Finally, its name was Laputa, and its rulers were philosophers. From that period its glory began to vanish, its strength to decay, its might to decline, and it has degenerated into a state commensurate with the insignificance of its geometrical extent." The right hon. gentlemen on the other side had, as it appeared to him, deviated from their principle. They had set out on the theory of introducing a metallic currency and withdrawing the paper money from circulation. And what was the purport of their present proposal? Why, merely to substitute for the paper of the country banks, the notes of the Bank of England—notes which were more liable to be forged than any other. He (Sir J. W.) had never wished to see one-pound notes issued, but that they afforded facilities to manufacturers and workmen. He knew it to be a fact, that within fourteen miles of Birmingham, forged Bank of England notes had been offered eight and forty hours after the time those notes were re-issued. The bulk of the provincial notes came back to the country banks, upon an average, in six weeks. Now, if the banker must bring gold from London, he would not re-issue his notes, and the country would have no circulation at all. With respect to the metallic currency, he had been informed that ten out of every fifteen sovereigns brought to the Bank were not worth 18 s. from their having been sweated down. In this dearth of genuine circulation, ministers were taking away country bank notes, which were seldom forged, and suffering the reissue of Bank of England notes, which were easily forged.
Mr. Hudson Gurneysaid, that the degree in which the chancellor of the Exchequer had consented to enlarge the time for allowing the Bank of England to issue small notes, was, in his view, so far from being a dereliction of the plans which the right hon. gentleman had brought forward, that he was convinced, that it was the only possible manner in which they could be carried into effect. He had, on a former occasion, entered into the great distinction that existed between the cir-

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culation of the Bank of England and that which was founded on mere private responsibility, extendable, or liable to diminution, on every fluctuation of the credit of the issuers. The great and pressing danger of the country, at the present moment, was that of being left without any circulating medium at all. The gold issued was hoarded, the notes issued were run in on the bankers. The larger bankers would, of course, be anxious to withdraw a circulation rendered both dangerous and discreditable; and those who might struggle to continue their issues would find their notes return on them so fast, as to render any general circulation impracticable. With regard to the private bankers, he must again repeat, that the three years given for the gradual wearing out of the notes already stamped was, as regarded, the exigencies of the present moment, a mere fallacy. It was a discountenanced, and therefore a discredited medium. Indeed he had that very day been told of a banker, of great respectability in a manufacturing district in Yorkshire, who had only thirteen thousand pounds in circulation in one-pound notes. He issued them, and re-issued them; and, in the course of less than a week, had paid the whole amount three times over; on which he took them all up, and threw them into the fire. Under these circumstances, it was of the extremest importance, that the Bank of England should have the power to replace the paper withdrawn. This would prepare the way for allowing a metallic circulation to be introduced into the country; which all experience had sufficiently shown could never be co-existent with the private notes. Gold hitherto had been freely circulated only in the metropolis; and by allowing the Bank to continue their issues of small notes for a certain period after the private notes had ceased to be stamped, they would also be enabled gradually to get out the coin that might be wanted, but which, as a simultaneous operation, no amount of gold which could be supposed to be in their coffers, would be adequate to supply. He still thought it would have been safer to have left that period indefinite; but he believed the chancellor of the Exchequer's proposition would meet the existing exigences; though he should have much preferred inserting the month of January to that of October.
Mr. Crippssaid, he could not see the weight of the hon. gentleman's argument,
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that the country bankers notes would be driven out of circulation by the discredit which would attach to them from the prospect of the change about to be adopted. He was disposed to believe, that, in a few instances, bankers had withdrawn their notes with an injudicious precipitancy, but it was to be presumed that a little reflection would convince them that the experiment was one which could not with wisdom or advantage be repeated. The hon. gentleman had, indeed, stated an extraordinary fact, with regard to 13,000 l. having been paid and returned three times in the course of a few days. Such instances were possible, but he was convinced they must be very rare. He wished much that not a word had been said on the subject of one-pound notes; but, as the question had been stirred, and as ministers had proceeded to the length they had done, delay would be dangerous: hesitation could be productive only of mischief. Since ministers had determined that these notes should, with the concurrence of the House, be ultimately withdrawn, he was of opinion that the course they had pursued was the wisest that could have been adopted. An hon. member had said, that the measure would have the effect of reducing the price of agricultural produce, and, undoubtedly, so it would for a time. Agricultural produce could not remain stationary if the price of every other commodity fell; but he did not expect that that fall would be of long duration. The quantity of the country bank-notes, of the value of one and two pounds, was much smaller than was supposed. With regard to the Bank of England notes, which were intended to be issued, the amount that would get into circulation would be trifling, on account of the liability to forgery; for such was the dread of them on this account, that if there was a country bank in the neighbourhood, of known stability, there was not a labourer who would not prefer taking its notes to those of the former. A great deal had been said about speculations, and, no doubt, there had been a great deal of that, both to the ruin of the country and of the banks. But he entertained strong hopes that much ultimate good would result from it, and that the lesson which had been taught would not be easily forgot. There were occurrences, however, in the natural course of business, in which as great loss had been sustained as in those speculations. A friend of his, who

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was no speculator, and who had a few thousands by him, of which he did not know very well how to dispose, determined on investing the one-half in Exchequer bills, and the other in consols. He had since had occasion for his money, and had lost more in that way, than he could have done in the worst species of circulation. He thought, therefore, that too much stress was laid on speculation, when it was possible to suffer to an equal, if not greater degree by government securities. With respect to the two millions of Exchequer-bills, it was wrong to think that the issue of them could do no good. It undoubtedly did do good to some; those, for instance, who wanted to sell out, though in a general point of view it was a mere idea—a delusion. What, then, would grant relief? One gentleman said this, and another said that; but what danger could there be from an issue of Exchequer-bills, on lodging merchandize as security for the amount? Hon. gentlemen said, that it would furnish a bad precedent. God forbid that it should be rejected merely on that account! Let it be recollected that, at a former time the very anticipation of a relief of this nature alleviated the distress. The opinions and conduct of some politicians brought to his mind the idea of a man who had got wet in his feet, and caught a cold, which fell upon his lungs. Should the benefit of medical treatment be withheld from such a person, because he had brought his misfortune upon himself? Surely not. He was willing to go the full length with those who charged speculators with having, by their own imprudence, drawn embarrassments upon themselves; but were they, on that account, to be debarred the means of rising again from their difficulties?
Mr. Calcraftcongratulated the right hon. gentlemen opposite on the new light which had broken in upon them. They now, it appeared, felt the force of the arguments which he and others had been in vain urging since the commencement of the session, in which they endeavoured to show the extreme impolicy of ministers, in crying down one species of currency, before they had another to substitute for it. And now, seeing that their measures could not be otherwise carried into effect, they had been driven to the expedient of supplying the place of the country notes with the small notes of the Bank of England. The mischievous nature of the
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course they were pursuing had settled the opinion of the country with respect to their utter ignorance and incapacity. From the correspondence which he himself carried on, and from the information of others who had still more extensive means of ascertaining the real state of public opinion, he was warranted in saying, that the sense of the country, as to their gross ignorance about these matters, was universal. If they, instead of crying down the existing circulation, had supported such of the country banks as had stood the test of the late trying times—and few of them, in comparison with the whole number, had failed, and many of those who had stopped payments had again commenced business, having paid 20 s. in the pound—had supported them, they would soon have had an ample and secure circulation. They talked about getting gold as a substitute for the country small notes; but gold they could not get; and now, after having discredited the notes of the country banks, they were forced to bring into their place these notes of the Bank of England, which were well known to be the cause of so much crime. What was now to be the conduct of those who had supported the ministers on the ground of the metallic currency? It was to be hoped, that they would state the reason why they continued their support, or show, by their votes, that they abandoned ministers. If ministers could procure notes as difficult to be forged as those of the country banks, he should think that the supply of their paper would be a considerable improvement of the system; but, as his objection went to the whole bill, he would take the sense of the House upon it in every stage. It was lamentable to see the injurious effects that had resulted from the ignorance and incapacity of ministers. He had seen a letter from York, from a gentleman, who stated, that the people in that quarter had been reduced to the condition of the barbarous ages; and that, from the want of a circulating medium, they were forced to give their workmen provisions, clothes, and other articles, in barter for their work; whereas, if ministers had supported the country-bank circulation of small notes, no difficulty would have existed. He was perfectly astonished at their ignorance, and advised them to retrace their steps, and extend the term of stamping the country bank notes, instead of forcing into

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circulation those of the Bank of England, which were so objectionable, on account of the facility of forging them. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would be prepared to propose some such improvement on Monday.
Mr. Tierneybegged leave to assure the House, that though he had hitherto carefully abstained from taking a part in these discussions, it was not because he was insensible of their value, or indifferent to their results. On the contrary, he had uniformly felt the greatest anxiety to hear all that had been said on the occasion. He could assure the House, that during the course of a long parliamentary experience, he had never listened with more patience to the agitation of any great question than he had done to this; and never did he recollect one in which party feeling had so entirely given way to the calm and deliberate consideration of the imperative interests of the country. He gave at the outset his cordial assent to the principle upon which the contemplated measures of ministers were founded; namely, a speedy return to a metallic circulation. He knew it to be a sound principle: he thought the government were serious, and knew what they were about respecting it: indeed, he admired them for the apparent stoutness with which they had brought forward the measure. But, what was the case now? The ministers had no sooner announced their plan, accompanied by a firm declaration of its inviolability, than they came forward with a new proposition, which, mitigate as they would, was a material abandonment of the principle with which they had set out. Throughout the whole of these proceedings, indeed, he had witnessed the strangest indecision, and wandering from one point to another in their course—at one time exhibiting more firmness than the occasion required, and at another time the most compromising distrust. The chancellor of the Exchequer and the first lord of the Treasury had set out with what he would not call their well-considered letter to the Bank, partly because he did not think it had been well considered at all, and partly because (though he knew that meaning was not intended) it indulged in expressions which were liable, as they had been, to be misconstrued into indiscriminate reflections upon the country bankers. This letter was followed by the expose of the two branches of the system which the government had deter-
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mined to act upon; first, the increase of the number of banking partners, and the wider basis, to which all good men looked forward, on which the gold currency of the kingdom was to be re-established. Who could have believed that this wholesome plan was destined hardly to be developed, when it was to be materially altered? From the 5th of February no new stamping of country small notes was to be allowed, and their gradual abolition was decreed within three years. He thought, at the time, that this was intended rather to be too slowly, than too abruptly accomplished: he thought then, as he did now, that the government could have so arranged their resources, as to make the necessary supply of gold for the withdrawn notes as rapidly and conveniently as the nature of business could have required it. But now the Bank of England was, by a new manœuvre in the movement of the machine, to have nine months longer for issuing small notes, than was to be allowed to any other banking establishment; and an hon. gentleman near him (Mr. Hudson Gurney) had regretted, that twelve months instead of nine were not afforded for this operation. Now, he was at a loss to understand why the nine months would not answer as well as twelve, for every purpose of manufacturing their notes; for he thought that within a much shorter time, the Bank had it sufficiently in their power, or they never would, to provide a supply fit for any purpose. The whole position of the chancellor of the Exchequer in his former statement, was, that these small bank-notes, and a metallic circulation, could not go on together. That was a very clear and irrefragable position. It was not, at all events, one of the new-fangled ones of which they had heard so much; for it was at least a hundred years old, and to be found in many good books which had long ago promulgated the doctrine, that a good and a bad circulation could not co-exist, for that inevitably the bad would soon send the good about its business. Yes, and it would do more—it would prevent the good from coming in to recruit, even for a moment, where it was wanting. It was quite impossible to expect a gold currency, as long as this small-note process was continued. In the absence of the one-pound note, it might be relied upon that a metallic currency would flow in to supply the gap; but, if these small notes of the Bank of England were to be let in,

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what became of the right hon. gentleman's system? For gold never could circulate along with these notes. He did not then mean to enter upon a particular discussion of the general principle, but it appeared that the right hon. gentleman expected, that when gold came into circulation at the end of these three years, the Bank of England notes would give way. He had not seen the famous paper alluded to, as having been presented by Mr. Burke to Mr. Pitt; but he perfectly remembered Mr. Burke's declaration, that as long as the country kept a one-pound note in circulation, they could not expect to see a guinea. Now, he begged not to be understood as one of those who was panic-struck at the prospect of affairs. On the contrary, he had a great reliance on the strength and energy of her resources. He saw no cause of permanent alarm as arising from recent events; neither was he impressed with a belief that this want of confidence would endure. The resources of the people were, he was persuaded firm; their spirit and energy were still alive: distrust was certainly afloat, and what made it but this want of confidence, which the government seemed by their measures rather to prolong than to mitigate? What was the origin of the alarm and the difficulties which had seized upon men's minds? In looking to that point, it was impossible for him to exculpate the government, or to refrain from censuring their policy. The besetting vice of this country—that by which ministers were constantly doing their best to diffuse, by every exertion and energy they could command—was the rage to keep up prices. Every country gentleman trembled at a reduction of his rents—every merchant exclaimed against lowering the price of his goods—and all classes vied with each other in keeping up prices as high as they had been years back. In fact, they were all mad enough to wish to keep up war prices in a time of peace. He held the attempt to be utterly impracticable. It could not go on, he repeated; it was madness to think of it; and he would lay down this as an irresistible proposition—that a metallic currency and present prices could not exist at one and the same time. It was quite impracticable, and the idea of a radical error; and upon that point he would frankly and fairly speak out. He would listen to no man's nostrum that had for its object the continuance of
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the war prices, and at the same time, a metallic currency. He knew that this was unpalatable doctrine, but it was the truth; and this was not a time to abstain from stating the truth on so important a subject, though the truth might be disagreeable. Then, rushing from one extreme to another, what did ministers do? In 1822, they made an issue of Exchequer-bills, and the Bank, in concurrence with them, entered into measures which had the effect of giving a great stimulus to public-money-matters, and of lowering the rate of interest. What the Bank had done was, he had always heard, done on the suggestion of the government. The measures that were adopted on the occasion to which he alluded, were of a very unusual kind. The Bank thought it right to step out of its proper line of business, and to lend money on stock, and afterwards to make advances upon mortgages at four per cent. These proceedings had necessarily the effect of keeping up the prices both of stock and mortgages; while, contrary to all usage, it swept down the rate of interest throughout the country. It was not alone the advance of this 1,200,000 l. on mortgage at four per cent that created this effect; its principle operated immediately, from one end of the country to the other, and commanded the payment of mortgages held elsewhere and under different engagements. No man would pay more than four per cent; and he was safe in saying so, for he could go to the Bank, and get the money there, to extricate himself from the previous dearer incumbrance. The money thus called in, was turned into channels of speculation of all kinds; but who had led the way for them? Why, the Bank and the government. Who had encouraged and fostered extravagant expenditures? The same parties. And yet, with this experience before their eyes, people were found to ask, who and what had caused all this wild and extravagant speculation? The Bank at length found itself getting into an awkward predicament, and began to waver between the influence of its two gods—the god gold, and the god government. Then, out went Exchequer-bills for sale into the market, and again went on the rage for speculation. And why should it not i Oh, but it was said, it was overtrading which had done all the mischief. Overtrading did they call it? What was the meaning of the word? It was, when a

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man did not succeed, he was nicknamed an overtrader: it reminded him of the distich about treason—
"Treason does never prosper—what's the reason?
Why, when it prospers, 'tis no longer treason."
So when success followed the speculator, then he became the sagacious and adventurous British merchant. But, as he had before said, the government had, from first to last, fostered this spirit, and not foreseen its consequences. Had they last October kept their eyes upon their own system, they ought to have foreseen its re-action. Then, indeed, some trifling assistance might have been afforded, and with beneficial effect. If it were said, that parliament was not sitting at the time, his answer would be—then why not convene them? for a little relief in time would have done what could not now be effected by the largest measure of relief. Some measure of relief at that time would have restored confidence; but unfortunately that period had been suffered to go by. The distress began to be felt, and Exchequer-bills were sold, and the Bank became the purchasers, and afterwards the sellers. The panic showed itself more and more every day. At last parliament met, and then government proposed the measures to which he had adverted. He knew that ministers were beset by men who were clamorous on the subject of the evils they were likely to suffer, and the purchase of Exchequer-bills by the Bank was gladly received as a means by which many of them could be relieved. This measure, however, would not answer the end proposed; nor did he think those proposed by government would have the desired effect. At the same time, he was not one of those who despaired of the country. The distress did not altogether arise from want of capital so much as want of confidence; and he was satisfied that if some measure was adopted, by which that confidence could be restored, the country had the means by which, when it was restored, its affairs would return to their former prosperous course. He thought that if an issue of Exchequer-bills were now made, as in 1793, it would do a great deal of good. But the purchase of Exchequer-bills by the Bank would not have that general effect; for, if a large purchase were made, how did they know that they would by this measure relieve the right man? The man who went into the market on Monday last and purchased
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Exchequer-bills at 20 s. discount, would, no doubt, be greatly benefitted by having them raised to par, or at a premium; but the person who had traded, or overtraded, as it was called, would obtain no benefit by it; and perhaps, after all, the man who might be relieved was the last person who was entitled to relief. It was true that the holder of Exchequer-bills must be supposed so far to be a man of property; but, whether he was the man of property to whom relief ought to be extended, they had no means of knowing. Thus, the relief given by the purchase of Exchequer-bills would be altogether uncertain in its effects. A part of the proposed plan went upon the assumption, that the country bankers would not reissue their small notes any more. He did not believe a word of it. He did not think that any man among them was fool enough to throw 30,000 l. into the fire, as they were told of by his hon. friend.
Mr. H. Gurneysaid, he had mentioned only 13,000 l. which were so used by one banker in Yorkshire.
Mr. Tierneydid not mean to say that his hon. friend had ever been guilty of any thing so imprudent. He was too well acquainted with the system, and knew much better than to adopt that course; but, if such large sums were not destroyed, they might be locked up for a time, until opportunity offered for their re-appearance. In the district in which this burning of the notes took place, he knew there was great distress felt. The bankers alluded to were, perhaps, in a state of great irritation; but that distress would, he had no doubt, be in time removed, and it might happen that the man who had so foolishly thrown his notes into the fire, would be glad to rake up the cinders, and to find some of those notes among them. Again, he would repeat that, in his opinion, all that was wanted in the country was, the restoration of confidence. That would call forth the hoards which were now left unemployed. There was abundance of the precious metals, he also believed, which would be forthcoming, if this confidence were restored. But, the fact was, the country bankers were offended. There was, here and there, a strong expression of blame to them, in the late correspondence of government with the Bank. Perhaps, those expressions were not meant to give offence in the quarter in which it was taken; but it did unfortunately happen that they were taken

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offensively. Was the present new course likely to conciliate the country bankers? On the contrary, was there any thing which could be more likely to crush those very bankers than the distinction that was now to be made of allowing the Bank of England to add to their issues of small notes, while the permission was denied to the private banks? Was it not saying, in direct terms, not that the Bank of England notes were so much more certain than theirs, but that theirs were not certain at all? Whatever was the intention, there was no doubt that the country bankers would so feel it. For his own part, he wished well to the country banks; for he thought their existence would be attended with great benefit to the country, as long as their issues were on a solid basis. He would wish to see them generally on the basis of those in Lancashire and London. The evil which arose from them was, not that they had the power of lending money to a great extent, but that they should have the power of making notes for the purpose of lending. If they really had money to lend, they would be a benefit, as long as they could say, "here is the money to lend, provided you give us the security;" but it would, in the end, be no benefit to say, "we will lend our notes," if those notes did not, at the same time, represent real property. He would wish to see the country banks flourish on a wholesome basis. If the country knew of a good security on which to rely, there would no longer be hoards of gold. There would be large paper issues; but they would be, as they ought to be, bottomed on a metallic security. If he were asked what measure would be productive of much good in the present state of the country, he would say an immediate issue of Exchequer-bills for the relief of the commercial distress. That would help many parties through their difficulties, and bring back a sound state of things. But, if government were to do any thing, let them do the right thing. He would not say what sum it might be proper to issue. If the whole sum of 5,000,000 l., which had been spoken of, were to be issued on proper security (which no doubt, the commissioners would take care to obtain, as they had done before), it would, he was sure, have a most beneficial effect on the country. The money would soon be re-paid—things would speedily come about—the hoards now
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locked up would get into circulation—the bankers would again hold up their heads—and the country would return to a wholesome state of things. He meant a large circulation of paper, founded on a solid, substantial metallic currency.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he did not rise at that late hour to enter into a discussion of all the topics brought under review in the speech of the right hon. gentleman, nor did he rise to state the grounds on which he should be prepared to show that the opposition he had offered to the measure recommended by the gentleman opposite, was not inconsistent with the measure he himself recommended, nor that it would, in any degree, tend to counteract its effects. But he was anxious to say a few words on what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman respecting the issues of the Bank. He was perfectly willing to take his share of all the blame, if blame there were, as to the conduct which the government had held towards the Bank. He admitted, that the proposal for taking the dead weight proceeded from the government. It was adopted by the Bank, at the suggestion of the government; and if there was any blame belonging to that measure, that blame belonged to the government. But, the government had nothing to do with the Bank keeping those annuities. It might sell them; and that it had not chosen to do so, was entirely its own proceeding. With respect to the issues of the Bank, to enable the government to pay off the four per cent in October, 1824, that measure was proposed by the government, and for it the government alone was responsible. As to the other measures mentioned by the right hon. gentleman, he was bound to say, for it was the truth, that the government was in no degree responsible or to blame. As to the Bank lending money on stock, and thus increasing its issues, he would only say, that so far from its having been adopted at the suggestion of the government, government never knew of the measure being adopted until after it had ceased, and could not, therefore, be charged with participating in it. As to lending money on mortgage also, the government was not responsible for that step. He would say for himself, that he never heard such a measure was in agitation, until the Bank had told him it was done. For that also the government could not be responsible; whatever in-

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crease of issues it might have occasioned. Whether that measure was right of wrong he did not say; but he did say the government had nothing to do with it; but if it had not been done, the issues of Bank notes would not have been so great. With respect to the dealings in Exchequer-bills, he would observe, that the only part of that measure for which government were responsible, was that which arose from dealings between the Bank and them, in which they had advanced money upon them. It was not usual for the Bank to issue money on such bills to the public; but as to the selling of Exchequer-bills last summer, it was the act of the Bank themselves, and done on their own responsibility. In adverting to this, he would observe, that the government had not that control over the Bank which seemed to be generally imagined. It seemed to be the opinion of some hon. gentlemen, that government could control the proceedings of the Bank at pleasure. Government possessed no such power; nor did they wish to possess it. He had mentioned these circumstances with the intention that hon. members, in viewing the proceedings of the Bank and the government, would give to each the blame or credit which belonged to them, and not attribute to one what solely belonged to the other.
Mr. Ellicesaid, he would not divide the House, because from the declaration of the chancellor of the Exchequer, he did not think he was opposed to the principle of the measure recommended.
The bill was then read a second time.

BANK CHARTER AMENDMENT BILL.
The order of the day being read,
The Earl of Liverpoolrose, pursuant to notice, to move the second reading of the bill entitled "An act for the better regulating copartnerships of certain bankers in England, and for amending an act, passed in the 39th and 40th years of the reign of his late majesty king George 3rd, entitled an act for establishing an agreement with the governor and company of the Bank of England," &c. He believed it would be most convenient for the discussion to call their lordships' attention to the different branches of the subject, in order fully to explain the measures which his majesty's government had thought it right to adopt under the present circumstances. He was well aware of the difficulties opposed to any measure of remedy which could be suggested. At the same time he could not help thinking that, if their lordships were disposed to look the difficulties fairly in the face, they would become less than they might at first sight appear to be. A noble lord opposite, had, on a former occasion, referred to what he had thought it right to say in the course of last session, on the subject of the speculations which were then going on. What he had then said, showed that the causes of the present evils were not unforeseen. It had been said, however, that he had not pointed out all the sources of the delusion, and that in particular he had not said any thing of the country banks. Now, he would refer to the recollection of those who heard him at the time, as well as to those floating records, which, though loose and hastily made, would be found substantially correct, for an account of what he had said at that time. It would be found, that upon that occasion he had gone even out of his way, to give notice to the persons embarked in

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the wild speculations, of the hazard they were incurring. He had then observed, that one of the reasons of his mentioning the subject was, that those speculations were not confined to the metropolis, where people might easily know what they were worth, but that they were extended through the country by the agency of the country banks. Government had received intelligence of this, and numerous individuals knew of it as well as government. When he referred to this declaration, he did it out of no view of laying claim to any prophetic spirit, beyond that possessed by any other noble lord, who had directed his attention to questions of that nature. Their lordships must say, when they recollected the numerous speculations of the last year, the mining speculations, the loans to foreign countries, the various extravagant projects which were on foot, that it was impossible but, sooner or later, a powerful reaction must take place.
In discussing the proposed measures, he should first endeavour to ascertain the causes of the present distress. And he had no difficulty in stating, that he agreed with those who had ascribed the principal part of the evil to those extraordinary and extravagant speculations which were afloat in this country during the last year, and which undoubtedly had their origin in the then great prosperity of the country. Their lordships would recollect the speculations of that period. The foreign loans, the mining associations, the joint-stock companies, had come to such an extent, that a noble lord, then in his place, and a noble and learned friend of his, not then on the woolsack, had thought it right to devise measures to obstruct the passage of these projects through parliament. Their objects were plain to every man, and made him feel for the dangers to which the unwary were exposed. The spirit of adventure—the spirit of gambling and speculation—was pushed to an extent never exceeded at any period of the history of this country since the celebrated South-sea bubble. This spirit of adventure and speculation was not confined to these new objects of speculation, but extended itself to all the branches of legitimate and ordinary trade. Their lordships had lately heard a great deal of the danger of giving freedom to trade, and much of the evils had been ascribed by some persons to those acts of parliament, by which some branches of trade had been liberated; but, the greatest speculation had taken place
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in those articles, the trade in which had always been free. Their lordships had ordered some returns of the imports and exports of certain articles of commerce and raw materials to be laid on their table. They had called for these papers that they might compare the speculations and the trade of different years. These accounts were made up of the average of the three years before the last, in order to compare the extent of the trade in that year with the three preceding years; and a fairer comparison could not be made, because those three years, and more particularly the last two of them, were years of great commercial prosperity. He would enumerate some of the principal. In the years 1822, 1823, and 1824, the imports of sheep-wool amounted to 20,341,0761b. In the last year, the amount of the same imports was 38,703,682lb., being an increase of 90 per cent. In cotton wool, for the same period, the average imports amounted to 161,206,751lbs., while, in 1825, it amounted to 222,457,616lbs., being an increase of 38 per cent. The next article to which he would call their lordships' attention was indigo, the imports of which had risen from 5,077,878lb. in the three years, to 7,530,534lb. to which they amounted last year, and which was an increase of 48 per cent. The loads of square timber imported in the three years preceding the last, were 551,496. In the last year they amounted to 664,186, which was an increase of 20 per cent. Of deals, 41,102 cwts. were imported in the three years; in the last year the imports were 58,605 cwts., making an increase of 42 per cent. He would now draw their lordships' attention to silk—that article of which so much had been said. It appeared from accounts on the table, that speculation had been no less active in this article than in others. The imports of thrown silk, which were the three years preceding the last, on an average 404,423lbs., had risen to 800,501lbs., being an increase of 98 per cent. A similar comparison with respect to raw silk showed an increase of from 2,608,527lbs. to 3,431,172lbs. which was an increase of 31 per cent. The imports of wine, tallow, and several other articles, into the details of which he would not enter, had risen nearly in a similar proportion. Every branch of trade had thus been extended to a degree unparalleled in this country. Such had been the spirit of enterprise,

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not only with respect to gambling and joint-stock companies, but also to speculations in trade, that it was beyond possibility, that a great re-action should not follow.
Having stated thus much with regard to over-trading, he would proceed to speak of the currency, and to shew its connection with the present state of things. He knew there were different theories upon the subject. Some persons attributed all the evils to speculation, while others attributed them all to the currency. That they did not flow exclusively from the currency, he thought he had already shewn; but he did not think that all these speculations and gambling transactions could have been carried to the degree they had been carried, if they had not been aided by the paper currency. Both causes had operated. The speculations in trade had been the origin of the evil; the spirit of gambling carried into every branch of trade had been the beginning, but it could not have been so extensive if it had not been aided by the state of the currency. Let their lordships see how the question stood with regard to the currency. That question also divided itself into two branches—the notes of the Bank of England, and the notes of the country banks. Accounts had been laid on their lordships' table of the number of Bank of England notes in circulation since 1819, and they led to this observation, that in 1821, in 1822, during the whole of 1823, and during one-half of the year 1824, there was no reason whatever to infer any over-issue of Bank of England notes. Even in 1823, the exchanges were in our favour through the whole of that year, though the Bank had made additions to its issues. During that year, and up to August and September, 1824, the exchanges were in favour of this country. He rested much on this circumstance; for he was one of those who agreed in the opinion, that the state of the exchanges was an infallible guide on this subject, if properly attended to. He knew this point had been disputed by some able persons; but he thought they were in error, by taking up wrong ideas in the outset, which they could not afterwards get rid of. He had looked at their writings; and was still of opinion, that the state of the exchanges was an infallible medium for regulating the circulation. Up to the month of August, and even up to September, 1824, the state of
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the exchanges was in our favour; but then they took an unfavourable turn. On this indication, the Bank should have decreased its issues; but it had not—it had increased those issues. It must, however, be said, in fairness towards the Bank, that they soon saw their error, for so early as March, 1825, they perceived the necessity of drawing in, and between the months of February and May, a reduction in their issues had taken place to the amount of 1,300,000 l., while from May to August the diminution was 700,000 l. more; and, by the month of November, 1825, the Bank had contracted its issues to the amount of three millions and a half. Although, therefore, he was ready to admit, that the Bank did not, in the first instance, use due precaution in the contraction of its issues, he must, at the same time, do that body the justice to say, that they did not lose much time in reducing their circulation.
Let their lordships next consider what was the state of the currency as regarded the issues of the country bankers. And here he wished, once for all, to say, as some seemed to suppose he had a dislike to country bankers, that he disclaimed all intention of casting any imputation on the country bankers generally. Amongst them he knew there were many as wealthy, as well established, as respectable, and as solvent, as any bankers in the great city in which he was speaking. His observations were all directed against the general system, and did not refer to any individuals. Let their lordships, then, look to the state of the country-bank circulation during the period when the issues of the Bank of England had been brought under their notice. In the years 1821, 1822, and 1823, the country-bank circulation continued, as far as that could be known from the number of stamps issued (which he admitted, might not be exactly correct), on the average, to be somewhat more than 4,000,000 l. Stamps to that amount had been annually issued, and no considerable increase had taken place until the year 1824; but, in 1824, the number issued had been increased from four to six millions; in 1825, it had been further increased from six to eight millions; so that, between 1824 and 1826, this species of circulation had been actually doubled. This was a most material fact, and proved the continuance of the increased issues of the country banks, after the Bank of England had contracted

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its issues to a very considerable amount. When the Bank had been doing every thing in its power to warn the country, and had reduced its issues three millions and a half, the country bankers had, at that very time, increased the amount of their issues. In comparing the accounts of the issues of the Bank of England with the issues of the country banks, it would be seen, that the Bank of England had begun, in February and March, 1825, to reduce its circulation, and it was then somewhat more than twenty millions. Between May and August it was reduced to 19,600,000 l., and in November it was down to 17,980,000 l., making in the whole a diminution of three millions and a half. But, in the year 1825, the issue of country-bank notes was, in the first quarter, 2,151,774 l; in the second quarter, 2,506,539 l; in the third quarter, 2,155,754 l., and in the fourth quarter, 1,941,242 l. Thus, the notes stamped for the country banks exceeded, in 1825, by a considerable amount, the average amount of former years. Whatever reduction of the paper circulation was effected by the Bank of England, was more than made up by the issues of the country banks.
Having established this fact, he would ask their lordships, if it was too much for him to say, that the spirit of adventure and speculation, the gambling in joint-Stock companies and mining associations, in loans, and the other extravagant projects, which he had before alluded to, had been, fomented and encouraged by the facilities afforded by the over-issues of the country banks; and that the failure of these speculations, necessarily involving that of those who had afforded them accommodation, was one of the main causes of the distress of the country? For where did the distress begin? The first failure which took place was that of a great house in the West of England. The second, that of a London banking-house, connected with not less than forty of the country banks. The third great stoppage was that of a large banking establishment in, Yorkshire. Thus, therefore, although the run was not altogether confined to the Country banks, and it was impossible when once the panic had diffused itself abroad that it-should be so still it would, he believed, be acknowledged that the run was mostly upon the country banks, and that when it extended itself to London, it fell with, the greatest fury upon the establishments most connected with the country-bank circulation.
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Was it, then, too much to ask their lordships' assistance in putting down so crying an evil? It had, he knew, been said by some noble lords, as well as out of doors, that the measures proposed were premature, and that we ought to wait for more convenient and quieter times. But that was an assertion, the futility of which would, he was confident, be obvious to all those who knew human nature, and who had seen as much of the world as he had done. They knew that the hour of distress was the best time for the application of a remedy; and that, under such circumstances, it would be received with much less clamour, and be far more likely to produce a salutary effect, than during a period of prosperity.
Acting under these impressions, his majesty's government had suggested two remedies; one having for its object the gradual withdrawing of the one and two pound notes out of circulation; and the second, that which it had become his duty to propose that evening, for their lordships' adoption. Before he proceeded, however, to the second of those measures, he thought it right to state the grounds upon which he supported the first, and to obviate, if possible, the objections which he had heard urged against it; that measure was not yet before their lordships; but, from the votes of the other House of parliament, they knew that it was in progress, and that it was likely to come soon under their consideration. The first objection to the measure was one which could not be denied, and undoubtedly, as far as it went, he must admit its force. He could not deny that the withdrawing the one and two pound notes, in order to the substitution of a metallic currency, would operate as a considerable check on the supply of circulation which trade might require, and that, in this way, the distress would be generally felt; but their lordships must see the necessity of adopting this measure after the statements which he had just made. They must have observed, that the country might be left in a state of perfect delusion; that the country banks might go on increasing their paper circulation, while the Bank of England, aware of the state of the exchanges, were taking measures to reduce their issues. Now, if the circulation of the one and two pound notes were replaced by a metallic currency, this could not be the case. But there was another consideration of serious im-

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portance. If the country was to be exposed to a crisis of this nature—and in a great commercial country crisises of such a kind were to be expected—it was necessary to provide against the evil consequences of this description of circulation to the poorer classes. Let their lordships consider what were the consequences of the failure of a country bank to a labourer. The poor man could not refuse a one-pound bank-note, and he could not retain it, in order to recover its value at another time, as others might do, for he must expend it in supplying his weekly and his daily wants. Then let any one of your lordships reflect upon the consequences produced, under these circumstances, by the failure of a great bank in a country town, which bank had been supposed to be perfectly solvent; and, be it remembered, that no less than seventy or eighty of these banks had suspended payment during the late panic. Only let the House conceive for a moment to what a lamentable situation the poor inhabitants of that town must have been reduced by such an event! All they had been able to save from their hard earnings for years past were probably lodged in that bank; and even the very last payment of wages which they had received had been made in these worthless bits of paper; and, consequently, many of them were seen hawking them about for sale, and offering them for 5s. in the pound, to enable them to purchase the common necessaries for the support of life. Now that was a situation of things which never could take place in a country in which a metallic currency alone existed.
And this observation brought him to the next question; namely, the difficulties an the way of arriving at the substitution of a metallic for a paper currency. A noble lord opposite had rested his objection to the measure proposed by his majesty's government for the sanction of the legislature, on the difficulties which would attend the substitution of a metallic currency. Now he would beg leave, in the first place, to call the attention of the noble lord, and the attention of those other individuals who made that objection, to the actual situation of the country, which they seemed to have forgotten. In this great metropolis and its neighbourhood, a metallic currency alone was in circulation. The same observation applied to the county of Lancaster, one of the most populous districts in England. Liverpool
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contained a population of 150,000 souls; Manchester 200,000 souls; and the population of the district altogether was not less than two millions; yet, in those populous towns, and throughout that whole district, there existed no other than a metallic currency. This, if the population of the metropolis and the towns in its neighbourhood were added, it would be found, that with respect to four millions of the inhabitants of the country, who might be fairly taken as the representatives of at least two-thirds of its wealth and respectability, the objection of the noble lord did not apply. Where, then, he asked with confidence, was the difficulty of extending to all parts of the country, a circulation which existed in full force in London and its dependencies, and in Lancashire, Liverpool, and Manchester, and their dependencies? There could be no difficulty in continuing it where it was already established; and the argument which had been advanced, that a paper circulation was more commodious for the purposes of commerce, was answered by the fact, that in London, and the places he had already alluded to, where there was tenfold the amount of business, there was no paper circulation. In Manchester, an attempt had been once made to establish a paper circulation; but it failed entirely; for the inhabitants had, he was happy to say, the good sense to reject the attempt, satisfied to remain as they were. Their lordships, therefore, had the benefit of experience with respect to these wealthy and populous parts of the country; and if they looked, likewise, to those accounts which were already on their table, and to those which would be placed there, they would be convinced that there was no serious difficulty to be apprehended. Their lordships pretty well knew what the circulation of 1l. and 2l. notes had been, and what they might have been, had there been no coin in the country. During the suspension of cash payments, parliament had regular returns of the amount of one and two pound Bank of England notes circulated in the country; and that circulation was found to have amounted to nearly seven millions. He would now take that sum, and add to it the amount of the circulation of those of the country banks. He was aware that, to get at this, they were under the necessity of taking their data from the number of stamps issued by the Stamp-office for that purpose; and, according to these, he was sure he did not under-rate

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them, he was certain he over-rated them, at 6,000,000 l. or 7,000,000 l. at the utmost. Putting these two sums together, then, they would give a circulation of one and two pound notes of 13,000,000 l. or 14,000,000 l. He knew that 6,000,000 l. of country notes went beyond the mark as the amount of an average year; but, taking it at this extravagant rate, he would suppose them to have to provide for the substitution of a paper currency of 13,000,000 l. or 14,000,000 l. Now, by the official accounts laid before their lordships, they knew that, during the period from the year 1819 to the year 1826, the Mint had coined in sovereigns and half sovereigns, more than twenty-five millions sterling, of which in one year—namely, the year 1821—they had issued no less than 9,500,000 l. From that sum of 25,000,000 l. their lordships would have to deduct the amount of the gold that had been exported from the kingdom; and this was to be ascertained through the medium of the Customs; although it could not be done formerly, because then, absurdly enough, it was contrary to law to export the coin of the country, but now it might be lawfully exported. From the accounts furnished by the Custom-house, it appeared that the quantity of gold exported from this country since the year 1819, amounted to 7,269,000 l. During that period, as he had before stated, 25,000,000 l. of gold coin had issued from the Mint, which deducting the 7,000,000 l. exported through the Custom-house, left 18,000,000 l. But, in addition to that which passed through the Custom-house, he was aware that considerable quantities left the country through other channels—as, for instance, those sums paid to smugglers for contraband goods; and the money which the passengers on board vessels might have in-their pockets. Taking, therefore, the Bum of 7,000,000 l., which had been lawfully exported in the regular way, and adding to it the sum of 3,000,000 l. more as the amount of the rest—and this was a most extravagant calculation—their lordships would have to deduct 10,000,000 l., as the amount of coin exported, from the 25,000,000 l. issued by the Mint, and there; would be 15,000,000 l. as the amount now remaining in the country. Then they all knew that, since the month of November, in the last year, upwards of a million had been re-imported. So that, according to this calculation, there could not be in the
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country at the present moment, less than sixteen millions of gold coin, to fill the place of the small note currency. Besides, circumstances had occurred which had partly anticipated, and thereby considerably facilitated, the proposed alteration. Their, lordships might remember the alarm which had been created in the country some time ago, by the circumstance of a banker in Bristol refusing to pay his notes in gold; and this having been acted upon in other places, the alarm soon spread throughout the kingdom; and the consequence was, that it threw a considerable quantity of gold into the country. Now, therefore, looking at the amount of the paper in circulation,—looking at the amount of the coin issued by the Mint since the year 1819, and at the result of the calculation which he had made—he did not entertain the remotest doubt that there was quite a sufficient quantity of coin in the country to meet the measure proposed by his majesty's government of substituting a gold for a paper circulation. They did not mean, however, that the paper currency should be withdrawn at once. It was to be done gradually, in the course of the ensuing three years; so that the country notes would still continue to circulate until (supposing even that there were not enough of coin in the country to supply their place) a sufficient quantity could be procured. However, looking at the example of Lancashire and London, all the difficulties on the subject completely vanished. Why did gold circulate there? Because they had no paper currency. Why was there no gold in other places? Because they had a paper currency. No fact had been more clearly established by all experience on the subject than this—that gold and paper never could be brought to circulate together. No paper would circulate where gold did; and no gold where paper circulated. There could be no common issues of both. This, he repeated, was clearly proved by all experience.
These were the grounds on which he submitted his first measure to the consideration of the House. It was proposed, as the means of making the evils more equally felt, whenever an unfavourable state of the exchanges took place, by which the great mass of the people would be protected from its effects. But then it would be said, "That measure of itself will be inadequate; you ought to go further; that is doing a good deal,

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but it is not doing enough." But, though he preferred a metallic to a paper-currency in small transactions, still he admitted, that a system of banking, established on sound principles, was attended with convenience, and even benefit, to a country. The measure, however, which he had to propose on this subject, he granted, was but a half-measure. And why was it so? Because their lordships would recollect, they had the chartered rights of the Bank of England to contend with. This was an obstacle to their going further at present. They ought to go further whenever they could; but the question now was, were their lordships, although they could not go as far as they wished at present, to go as far as they could? He was surprised to hear it objected to, on no other ground than that it was calculated to do too little good. But surely, if it would do some good, and could do no harm, that was a groundless objection. The present system of law, as to banks in this country, he considered to be one of the most absurd that ever was invented. It was in the teeth of all sound policy or common sense. It had grown up gradually, and was not the result of any original plan or system. He could easily conceive one of two systems founded upon reason and good policy, which might be adopted by banks. For instance, let them have a system of liberty, permitting any number of partners; or let them have a system of restriction, founded on conditions of indemnity or security, so that the public had a chance of being secure. He could understand that in America, one of those systems was acted upon. For instance, in the state of Massachusetts, they had twelve chartered banks, and no others were allowed; and, the moment any one of them became unable to pay their notes in specie, it forfeited its charter. That might be a wise system in the country in which it existed. At all events, it was a system which he could conceive. It was a limited system, founded upon conditions. There was, however, another system which was founded upon perfect and entire liberty; and which, for similar reasons, might be found equally efficacious. Because, where perfect liberty prevailed, each person having an equal right to invest his capital, the wealthier must in time drive out the weaker and less solvent, and thus the same end would be obtained by different means. He might illustrate his argument by a reference to the state of
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the banking establishments in the metropolis. The private bankers in London had it in their power to circulate their own notes—a privilege which they ally however, invariably waived, because the public would not take them, so long as they could get those of the Bank of England, in the solvency of which they had more confidence. So, if there were chartered joint-stock banks in other parts of the kingdom, there could be no doubt but that they would immediatly absorb the whole circulation of the country. Therefore, by either of those systems, the object of security would be attained. But what was the system in existence at present? Why, the most rotten, the most insecure, the very worst, in every respect, that could possibly be conceived. Any petty tradesman, any grocer or cheese-monger, however destitute of property, might set up a bank in any place; whilst a joint-stock company, however large their capital, or a number of individuals, exceeding six, however respectable and wealthy they might be, were precluded from so doing by the present system. One more absurd, therefore, he repeated, could not be conceived. Let them, then, either continue the system of restriction in point of number, but qualify it by condition; or else allow full liberty of number so that whichever they adopted, the public might have security for their property. The beneficial consequences resulting from one of these systems was manifested by its effects in Scotland. He knew he might be told that it was in vain for him to look to the example of that country, because they had not the power of granting charters. He admitted they had not, unless the Bank of England were to give up its charter; and therefore it was, that he had before said that his was but a half-measure. They had, however, consented to allow the restriction as to the number of partners in country banks to be removed, and so far one difficulty was removed. In return for this, the Bank might derive the consolation that they would have an opportunity of gratifying the desire, if they experienced it, of establishing branch banks throughout the country. Indeed, he believed they had a right to do so at present; and he confessed 'he was most anxious that they should make the experiment. But he trusted that, if they did not think it prudent to make the experiment themselves, they would not

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suffer the people to wait until the year 1833, exposed to the consequences of the present system, but set the public free, by allowing the Crown to grant charters to country banks. He believed it would not in any respect injure them, but, on the contrary, while it would be attended with the greatest advantages to the country at large, it would be beneficial also, in its consequences, to the Bank itself.
This, then, was the nature of the measures which he had to propose; but, before he sat down, there were two or three points on which he wished to offer a few observations. A doctrine had gone forth to the public, to which it was necessary he should advert; because, upon it rested the defence of the country notes, and it had been alluded to by a noble friend of his on the first day of the session. His noble friend had said, that the measure of withdrawing the country notes altogether from circulation, was unwise, seeing that a paper circulation, convertible into gold, was at least as good as gold. The argument, however, was erroneous, because it was founded upon a false assumption. The paper was not all convertible into gold; for where the paper flourished, the gold, as he had before said, almost invariably disappeared. There was a material difference between applying a cure beforehand, and waiting until the cure was accomplished through the ruin of hundreds of thousands of persons. That was the great error of the doctrine to which he was alluding. It was true that the evil would carry with it its own cure; but when that cure came, it proved as great an evil as that of which it was to be the remedy. It was also to be recollected, that, although the doctrine might be true, in a poor country, where property consisted chiefly of land, in a great commercial country like this, where the currency was subject to greater fluctuations from the unsteady nature of its property, it did not apply. The object of every description of currency should be to make the value of property as steady and as little variable as possible.
And this reminded him of a subject on which he would give no opinion at present—he meant the Corn laws. He was afraid that when that subject came to be discussed, a great deal of heat and passion would be displayed on both sides. But he would recommend their lordships to look at it as one which called upon them to take a cool and dispassionate view of
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it; not with the consideration as to whether the rents of the landlord, or the wages of the labourer, were to be high or low; but with a view to discovering what would be most likely to produce the least violent fluctuations of property. The truth lay there, and he who solved that problem would certainly come to the wisest conclusion. In alluding to this subject, he had, perhaps, gone out of his way; but he had been led to it by referring to the fluctuation of property; and he could not help entreating of their lordships, when they came to consider it, to do so coolly and dispassionately, not with reference to this or that individual's interest, but to the interest and welfare of the community at large.
Having said thus much, he now came to the question of a measure of relief, which amongst others was afloat. He had stated what his majesty's government proposed doing; but he was aware that a wish had been expressed, that a remedy for the present distress might be afforded by means of the issue of Exchequer-bills, at this moment; and he knew that if he studied his own ease or his own popularity, he could not do so more effectually than by coming down to parliament with such a proposition. If he had not adopted that course, he trusted the House would give him credit for abstaining from it, from a thorough conviction that it was not likely to be attended with beneficial results. He had always thought that the precedent of 1793, in that respect, was not a favourable one, and therefore, ought not to be followed. But there was a great difference between that period and the present; for it could not be pretended that the commercial distress which now existed had any connexion whatever with political events. The case before their lordships was not one of that description. What would be the effect of such a measure? Not to leave the people to rely upon themselves. What was that but the very evil which he had deprecated; namely, the looking to government for aid, to relieve them from the consequences of their own extravagance. It was now three or four years since the landed interest was suffering great distress; and not a month passed at that time, that he was not beset with the most urgent applications for relief by the issue of Exchequer-bills, as had been previously granted during the existence of commercial distress. But, there was a great difference

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between the two cases. Payment, in the one case, might be secured within a given time upon goods, but that was not the case upon land. The landed interest, however, did not the less consider that the state ought to come forward, and help them in distress, as it had done the commercial interest; for, said they, the commercial interests had the advantage of being able to send their goods abroad; they might combine to assist each other; the landed interests could not. The applications, however, had been rejected. These were the reasons why he could not agree to adopt that measure. But, with respect to what the noble lord opposite had said of the proceedings of the Bank of England on that subject, he saw no objection to it. All that government said upon that subject was this—if the Bank chose to go into the market and purchase a limited quantity of Exchequer-bills for the purpose of affording relief to the public, the government would pay them part of the six millions which they owed them, to prevent them from experiencing any inconvenience from so doing. One noble lord had expressed an opinion, that such an act, on the part of government, would be a species of guarantee to the Bank. It was no such thing. In so doing, we were certainly forestalling the stipulated time of payment; but we were willing to do so, if we could, by so doing, afford relief to the country.
He had now stated generally the principles on which the measures which he proposed were founded; and, of course, would be happy to afford any further explanation which might be deemed necessary. Their lordships knew, that from a given day, no new notes had been stamped, and that, after the 5th of April, 1829, the issue of one and two pound notes was to cease altogether. It was originally intended that the circulation of the one and two pound notes of the Bank of England should be put upon the same footing as those of the country banks; but, upon consideration, it had been deemed advisable to allow the notes of the Bank of England to be stamped until the 10th of October next, instead of ceasing forthwith, like the country bank notes. With respect to Scotland and Ireland, it was intended ultimately to place them on precisely the same footing with England, although it had not been considered expedient to do so immediately. Upon the best consideration, it was thought advis-
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able to wait a year or two after the time limited for England, before the change took place in Ireland, While in Scotland, it was intended that it should take place from the year 1829, when the change would take place in this country.—The noble earl concluded by moving the second reading of the bill.
The Earl of Limerickwished to observe, that in Ireland there was no circulation whatever but of notes under 5l. Gold was not to be had. Some small quantities might be kept in certain banks, but that there was any in circulation he denied. It would require a great increase of bullion to meet the discontinuance of the circulation of notes in Ireland.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, that when, upon a former occasion, a noble lord had introduced the subject of the Corn laws, he had treated his observations in a way in which they ought to have been treated; namely, by not noticing them at all. But the case was different when the noble earl opposite thought proper to travel out of his way to allude to it, for the purpose of treating the House to an exhortation on the subject. The noble earl had said, that from what he perceived in the House, he anticipated some heat and intemperance in the discussion of the Corn laws, and he had warned their lordships against the influence of passion on that discussion. Now, he had only to say, that when he had last argued that question, he had not used a single argument in which he had not considered the interest of the landed proprietor and of the manufacturer as combined. In arguing in favour of the continuance of the Corn laws, he had as much advocated the rights of the manufacturer as those of the landed proprietor; and on behalf of all, he had contended for an equality of price, for a moderate remunerating price, a price beneficial to all, and not subject to any variation. He believed that those who looked at the prices since that period, would find as little, if not less, fluctuation than before those laws' were imposed. When the subject was again brought forward, he would discuss it in the same spirit; and God forbid that he should ever attempt to separate the great interests of this country. He could not permit it to go abroad, that their lordships were likely to argue such a momentous question with passion. He had found, and he would find again, that in the discussion of that great subject, the interests of the poor man and of the great land-

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holder, would be equally consulted. He now came to the main question under discussion. That question he conceived to be—how far it was proper, to the extent to which this bill interfered with the charter of the Bank of England, for their lordships to interfere on the subject? The noble earl had stated some circumstances, from which he inferred the propriety of discontinuing the circulation of one and two pound notes four years earlier than the term now limited. He was not prepared to say whether or not they ought to abolish the circulation of notes under 5l., nor was he called upon to give any opinion upon that question at present; neither was he called upon to give any opinion as to the policy of the exclusive privileges of the Bank of England. But, admitting, for a moment, the principle of the measures before the House to be sound, the question was, whether it was right, in the present state of the country, for government to bring forward any discussion of this subject. He believed that, if their lordships duly considered the matter, they would join with him in saying, that this was an improper time. What had been said on this subject in the Speech from the Throne? And what had been stated in the noble earl's letter to the Bank? Why, that the panic had subsided, and that things had returned to their proper and accustomed channel. Now, if that were true, it clearly proved that this was not the time for agitating the present question. He believed, that the panic had been about expiring, but that, by these discussions, it had been very unseasonably revived. All he asked was, that the ministers would allow the country to recover its situation; and then this matter might be discussed with temper without doors, and with no fear of passion within. He thought there was no more improper period for effecting a change in the system of our currency than at this moment. It was impossible for him to discuss this question now in the manner he wished; and yet it was equally impossible for him not to attempt to go into it, and to show that the noble earl's arguments had been founded on a mistaken view of the calamities of the country; or, if his view was right, his measures were of all others the most likely to magnify them. He agreed with the noble earl only in this, that we ought to ascertain the true nature of the disease before we attempted to apply a remedy. The noble earl's plans were
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founded upon the principle of there being an excess of paper circulating throughout the country; but this he totally denied. He had also asserted, that no sooner had the Bank of England one-pound notes ceased, than the one-pound notes of the country bankers had increased, and hence arose an excess of paper. For his part, he wished to know what an excess of paper really meant. He thought it had been settled beyond dispute, that what at one time might be a great excess of paper for conducting the transactions of a country, might at another time be a great deficiency. There was no certain quantity of a circulating medium which, as the noble earl seemed to suppose, could form a lasting standard, or measure, beyond which all could be called excess, and beneath which all was to be esteemed deficiency. The quantity of circulating medium was to be estimated in relation to the extent of the transactions for which it was required. For instance, the quantity of the circulating medium, which would be absolutely requisite to conduct the multitudinous transactions in which this country was engaged, would, if transported to another country, prove ridiculously superabundant, or ridiculously deficient. Let the House consider how the affairs of this country had stood. The three per cents, which were held to be the criterion of the value of the funded property of all denominations, had varied lately from 75 and 80, up to 90 and 97. Land, which before had been thought to be well sold at 25 years' purchase, brought 33 years' purchase. The same thing had occurred with all fixed securities. Now, was it possible that the same transactions could be carried on in land and stock, at high prices with the same circulating medium which existed when they were at low prices? Was there not a greater extent of currency plainly implied in that rise of value upon the same land and stock? The argument was equally applicable to the proposition of the noble lord, who talked of speculation having raised the prices of commodities. Did the noble earl really think that the augmented transactions could be carried on, and the prices be raised, with the same quantity of circulating medium which existed before? This was utterly impossible. It was nothing, therefore, to show, that the quantity of the circulating medium had increased. It must be shown also, that it exceeded its due proportion, in

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comparison with commodities at the different periods stated. It would have been very easy to ascertain the fact, if the inquiry had been properly directed. Adverting to the Bullion committee, the noble lord observed, that they had very judiciously rested on the supposition, that mankind acted uniformly on the sense of self-interest; and that, if the public should see that the state of the exchanges and the price of gold were running adversely to the paper circulation, they would promptly exchange whatever notes they held for hard cash; and by that means entirely prevent an excessive issue of paper, one time with another. In this they had merely concurred with Dr. Adam Smith, and all the writers on political science who were of any authority. Dr. Smith having proposed, as part of the basis of a system of mixed currency, paper convertible into gold, with which he proposed to couple the agency of banks throughout the country. But how was the excess of the paper circulation proved? It was said, that there was a great rise in the prices of commodities. But, rise of prices might proceed from an alteration in the proportion of the quantity of various commodities as compared with each other. They must go a step further; they must prove—if it was meant to be shown, that the rise of prices manifested an excess of paper—that the value of paper was diminished in proportion to the value of commodities. Now, gold was a commodity; and, while paper did not decline in comparison with the price of bullion, it would be difficult to prove that paper was in excess. While a twenty-shilling note was convertible into a sovereign weighing 123 grains of gold and a fraction, it must be held to be equivalent to 123 grains and a little better of gold; and therefore not depreciated, and therefore not in excess—unless it were attempted to be proved, against all established science, that things equal to one and the same subject were unequal to one another. The spirit of scheming, and the excess of paper issues, had been absurdly linked together. How stood the question with respect to the great eras of scheming which had marked our latter history? Was it the over-abundance of one and two pound notes—was it an excess of country bank paper—which set a-going the bubbles of the South-sea project? So far from it, there were at that lime no small notes in existence, nor any paper of country banks
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floating. The same might be said of other periods. It was not the excess of paper which excited the schemes of 1793, which were happily put an end to by the war. There were no allegations of the kind at that time. He could not concur with the noble earl in ascribing the spirit of scheming to an excess of paper. High prices there might be, for a time, through the influence of scheming, but his imagination could not trace how the issues of one and two pound notes could have called the schemers into action. There was a whimsical contrast observable in the opinions expressed on this subject between two eminent writers of the day, Mr. Mushett and Mr. Tooke. The latter gentleman attributed to high prices the propagation of all the late joint-stock companies, and wild projects of speculation. Mr. Mushett assigned low prices as the cause of the same evils. Leaving those gentlemen to decide as they might between opinions so extreme, he did not believe that either high or low prices were enough to account for the causes of so strange an agitation as that which the country experienced in the course of last year. Was it, then, that be was puzzled by these phenomena, and that he had no way of solving the difficulty in his own mind? No such thing. Now then, to discover the real cause of these phenomena, in attempting which he was led naturally to the circumstances of a few-years back, and the measures which had been adopted, under the auspices of a noble lord opposite (Bexley), who was then sitting in another house. He would observe, in passing, that it would be not a little surprising if that noble lord, after having brought the House in which he then sat, to concur in a resolution, that Bank-paper not convertible into gold on demand, which was actually at a discount of 25 per cent compared with gold, was not depreciated, should now concur with the noble earl opposite, that paper was in excess, and therefore, by implied necessity, under a depreciation, though immediately convertible at the discretion of the owner. He pronounced this idea of the excessive issue of paper being the cause of the fluctuations and mischief which had recently occurred to be wholly ridiculous and untenable. The real cause was to be found in the working of that sinking fund which had, within a few years, been established on an effective footing of 5,000,000 l. annually. Let their

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lordships observe how this operated, and say if it was possible to deny that, instead of 1,000,000 l. which was the former amount-of the effective sinking fund, and which was scarcely felt in the money transactions of the country, the public had now to contend with an excess of capital equal to 5,000,000 l. thrown in annually to seek employment among the other interests. The commissioners go to market, and buy three per cents or Exchequer bills held by dissentients to the reduction of the four per cents or any other public securities. These securities must be held by capitalists. The commissioners succeed in persuading them to sell and pay their money. Must not that money immediately enter the markets, and become a candidate for new employment? Was there not, in like manner, a quantity of 5,000,000 l. thrown in every year to become a candidate for new employment? Must not this extraordinary supply of capital diminish the value? Was there any writer who attempted to deny that extraordinary supply had a tendency to diminish the value? Here, then, was a new experiment upon the general interests. While the war lasted, the sinking fund did not, in effect exist. Its operation was farcical or delusive; receiving 20,000,000 l. with one hand, and paying 30,000,000 l. with the other, of course this brought no excess of capital into the market. It was a new feature in our affairs to have annually 5,000,000 l. brought as a candidate for new employment. It shewed at once the reason for the increased prices in fixed securities. This it was that had reduced the interest upon them. This it was that had sunk the five per cents nearly as low in interest as the interest before paid on the 3½ per cents, and its effect was still going on to a further reduction. They must see how the case stood with men who had disposable capital. They could not be at a loss to calculate its effect upon other interests. Mortgages undertaken at 5 per cent were in hundreds of instances redeemed with money got at lower interest. The situation of the borrower now began to be one of difficulty; he found himself narrowed in his enjoyments; he listened eagerly to projects which would be likely to retrieve his income; one successful project counteracted the experience of many which failed; as in the lottery scheme, the drawing of a 20,000 l. prize spread the hope of gain far and wide, beyond any possibilities
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even of the law of chances. In former periods the same consequences had followed the diminution of interest, though no excess of one and two pound notes could then be alleged. Mr. Hutchison was the author of the scheme of our first sinking fund, which in 1716 was adopted by sir Robert Walpole. The foundation of that scheme was laid in a plan for lowering the interest of the public securities. There was the same circumstance of lowering the interest of fixed securities just before the bursting out of the South-sea scheme; and the same cause had then, as lately, led to the same disposition for adventures and projects, which deluded the capitalists with the hope of obtaining more interest, and replacing their income upon the former footing. Such, he assured their lordships, not on his own dicta, but on the arguments of the gravest authorities, was the real cause of the recent fluctuations in interest and in capital, and then in the prices of commodities. It was impossible to circulate commodities at their previously reduced value, while the sinking fund was constantly stepping in with an increase of capital seeking for new employment. The noble earl opposite had objected to him, that he was not authorized in saying, that the noble earl, in predicting the evil consequences of that rash and wild spirit of speculation in last session, had left out of view the operations of the country banks. On the contrary, the noble earl insisted that he had pointed out the transactions of the country banks even at that period, as an effective cause of the prevalence of that speculative spirit. But he put it to the House, did the noble earl then say any thing of the excessive issues of country bank paper? If the noble earl did really take that excess into consideration, what did he mean by that threat, which he very properly held out in terrorem, against those who should advance too far in that mad career, telling them, that if they got themselves into difficulties, they must not look for any commiseration from government after that warning, as ministers had determined not to advance any thing for their assistance in the way of Exchequer-bills? Was there any man in the kingdom, who had talked or written upon the subject, from the noble lord on the woolsack down to the most petty newspaper editor, who did not assign as the cause of the calamity the wild and disastrous speculations and the projects of

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the joint-stock companies? If he was right, then the high prices had been occasioned by 5,000,000 l. of capital coming into the market annually as a candidate for new employment; and, as its tendency was to urge on speculation, so its operation, within the last year, had been to call out 17,000,000 l. of capital, which were exhausted in foreign loans, in mining, in speculations of silk, linen, cotton, and other articles. This contraction of the general capital of the country had led to a reduction of prices equal to one-fifth. The inevitable consequence of that was a diminution of credit, and from thence came a fall of prices in the fixed securities. The 3 per cents were before at 97, and land at 33 years' purchase; circumstances changed, and the 3 per cents were at 80, land at not more than 30 years purchase. It was impossible that all this could be done so suddenly without having the effect of causing many stoppages. Some among the best houses were nearly crippled, while bankruptcy at once overtook the unsound dealer, who had habitually depended on accommodation.—Now for the remedies suggested and proposed by the government. He wished to know, if the government had left the country alone, what might at this time have been the amount of the loss? He would venture to say not 2,000,000 l. altogether. Things would rapidly have come round, and the industry of the country would, by this time, have been again actively engaged. But the noble earl chose to put out an alarming statement, in the Speech from the Throne, deprecating the causes of the evil, and declaring that some measures, on the part of government, were absolutely necessary. He put it to the noble earl, and to the House, to calculate, before that relief could possibly reach the public, what must be the loss in staying the transactions of every kind in the commerce and manufactures of so active and wealthy a community, in consequence of that alarming denunciation of the causes, and then to say if that loss was not greater than all the evils to which the new remedies were to be applied. But he must ask, did the noble earl as minister, attempt to do any thing to restrain these excessive issues in the operations of country banks? For his own part, he could not see those symptoms of a chief agency in the country banks to the production of the present evils. He saw, at the time, men of all parties, in that as well as in the other
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House, joining in the schemes, and strengthening the good opinion entertained of those schemes by the public with the authority of their names. The noble earl had never done any thing to discourage the speculation and scheming of which he now complained. Had the government ever tried to put in execution the Bubble-act? The, noble earl might say that he thought the Bubble-act afforded no means of security; then why did he not propose some other legislatorial provision? The members of the public offices were, to his own knowledge, speculators in these scheming companies, and yet the noble earl had never attempted to put the Bubble-act into execution. No exceptions had been taken by the noble earl to any thing that he now denounced as so prejudicial.—His noble friend, who was absent from indisposition, and himself, had exerted themselves to the utmost to undeceive the country. Day after day had he teased the House with prophecies which had been but too fully realized.
The noble earl opposite had taken the amount of coin in circulation at 16,000,000 l. How the noble earl had arrived at that knowledge was beyond his ability to tell; and so it was how the noble earl had succeeded in getting any return at all of the quantity exported, which the noble earl had put at 7,000,000 l. All he could say of it was, that three years ago, when he had called for that account, he was answered, that since the coin was allowed by law to be exported without being sworn to, no register had been kept of the amount. He would not, however, dispute the estimate of the noble earl. He was aware that the business of a banker did not require him to hoard capital to answer demands on him to such an amount as would subtract 6,000,000 l. from the circulation. He could not suppose that the sum was so great. The securities which were held by bankers might be such as to be capable of being recalled at the end of a year or a month, or at the pleasure of the lender. Their property might be good in the light of securities; but, as to that sum in coin, they had it not. Suppose them to be called on suddenly by the country to produce 5,000,000 l. They must call upon their customers in turn, who had their capital actively employed. The noble earl must first create a further demand for coin to the amount of six millions, before his expectations would be realized.

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The noble earl talked of joint-stock companies, with an increased number of partners, as one remedy. If the noble earl could find men ready to embark in those schemes in greater numbers than hitherto allowed by law, he would own himself to have greatly mistaken the subject. If at any time the noble earl could find six men, or more, who were ready to embark their whole property with the chance of dividing it to the last shilling in case of failure—taking into account, too, the variety of temper, and disposition, and the sense of risk—it would very much confound all his previous calculations. He knew that such establishments had been attempted, and one of them had been set on foot last summer. They had done him the honour of applying to him to be their governor, and had stated, that, as they only wished for his patronage and advice in directing their affairs, they did not mean to call upon him at all as a sharer. His reply was, that he felt the compliment which they intended him, but, as he never could be brought to embark his property in such a scheme, he could not lend it the sanction of his name, and make himself a decoy-duck to induce others to do so. The noble earl might flatter himself that, after the passing of this measure, every thing would go on as before. He would find, however, that banking laws must, both in principle and detail, be entirely new modelled. Did he suppose that an increased number of partners would add one iota to that general security of banks? It would give no security at all. The richest partnership ever known in any joint-stock bank in Scotland, was that of Douglas and Co., and its failure in 1772, which was also the greatest bankruptcy known in those parts, produced the most distressing consequences. Security there was none, either in the number of partners or in their wealth, if there was not skill in transacting business. So far from the remedies proposed being effectual, they were almost sure to lead to the utmost distress.
He complained, that the noble earl opposite had alluded to many things which he ought not to have touched; and had not alluded to one topic of which he was bound to have taken notice. The point which he ought to have noticed, and did not, was the effect of the mint regulations. The seignorage on silver was too heavy, and government would not allow any body
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but itself to issue silver. At a time when they appeared so anxious to withdraw the one-pound notes, and to let in gold, why did they persist in exempting silver? Why not allow a free mint in silver as well as a free mint in gold? What reason could be assigned for so absurd an exception? The father of the noble earl opposite had published a book on the subject, which contained one of the most ridiculous and absurd arguments that he had ever met with. It was contended in that book, that, as we were a richer nation, we required a more valuable standard; that silver might do for the people of the continent, but gold must be our standard. This was similar to the argument, that as we were in a greater degree than other nations manufacturers of broad cloth, we ought, by the same rule, to have the longest yard measure. Some gentlemen were for a double standard of gold and silver, and he could not directly oppose that. He strongly recommended the adoption of silver as a standard at a small ago. The absurdity of excluding this standard, which was common to all Europe besides, was, to the last degree, absurd when considered in detail. It was the pride of the noble earl's administration, that treaties of amity and commerce had been concluded with the independent states of South America. Were they still prepared to refuse to admit that standard which was allowed to France? What would be the consequence? Some of the returns would be made in silver ingots, which would necessarily be conveyed to the continent, where there was a free market, while the seignorage here amounted to a tax of one and a half per cent. He recollected arguing that point fully when those mint regulations were settled. He rejoiced at the prospect of seeing something done towards carrying into effect that which he considered to be so indispensable.—Some remarks he must make with regard to the application of this plan to Scotland. He confessed he had never heard any proposition with more astonishment than that of the noble earl, for extending to that country the remedy for evils which were only known in this. When did it once occur that Scotland was in a state to require such a plan? Bank-notes were in constant circulation there, aid always had been; but never, except in one instance, had the interference of the legislature been necessary, and then it was exerted, as he admitted,

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in a very proper way. There had been some notes issued which were payable, at the option of the parties, either on demand, or at six months from the date, bearing interest. Those notes had been very properly abolished by an act of parliament. But, for notes of one and two pound payable on demand, they had been in circulation la Scotland constantly since 1696. without any inconvenience to the public, or loss to the poor, or suspicion of any excess of issues. The noble earl would see why he did not believe that joint-stock companies would take in this country, when he had explained how they were managed in Scotland. Of thirty banks, seven were chartered or joint-stock companies; the other twenty-three were common partnership banks, of from four to fifteen partners. Were these less secure than the chartered or joint-stock banks? They were quite as secure.—The notes of the one were as good as the notes of the other. The royal bank and the bank of Scotland, in this respect, had no advantage whatever over the partnership banks. But, what was the nature of that security? There was no bank in Scotland, whether in Edinburgh, or any other part of the kingdom, the agents of which did not meet the agents of the other banks at least twice a week, at which times they interchanged the notes which they held of each other's bank, and the balance was paid in gold or bills on the Bank of England at sight. How could there ever bean over-issue; and how could they derive any profit from it, should they attempt an over-issue of their own paper, when they must immediately balance the amount in cash or bills on England? In fact, there had never been an over-issue of their paper. This, he knew, was contradicted by some persons who affected to be deeply skilled on the subject. And here he could not avoid noticing an article on this subject, which, it seemed, was to appear in a popular review. In that article, the writer did certainly advance a most extraordinary proposition—extraordinary from its total inaccuracy in point of fact, and no less extraordinary from its total absurdity in point of argument. It was a paper on the currency, in which the author professed to teach the two Houses of parliament their duty. As "the Edinburgh Review" would not be published sufficiently early to instruct their lordships in the course which the writer deemed it ad-
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visable for their lordships to pursue in the parliamentary discussions on this subject now before them, the author—such was the overweening importance that he attached to his opinions—had published this article in a separate pamphlet, and had sent a copy to each of the members of both Houses. He should read an extract from this pamphlet, to which he wished particularly to call the attention of their lordships. The writer stated, that "those who were acquainted with the real state of things in Scotland, were not a little amused by the paragraphs in the newspapers about the confidence, stability, &c. of the Scotch banks during the late crisis. The truth is, that these establishments were then, we shall not say on the brink of destruction, but certainly in a state of very great danger. Had the British Linen Company and the National bank not stepped forward to the assistance of the Fife bank, the latter must have stopped payment; and the alarm that would have been caused by that circumstance, in conjunction with that which was caused by the failure of Pole, Thornton, and Co., could hardly have failed to occasion a run, that might have been productive of the most disastrous consequences." This statement was not correct, and was calculated to produce the greatest alarm and distress throughout the country. The fact was, that the Fife bank had actually stopped payment, instead of that event having been prevented by the anterior operations of the two establishments mentioned. The 1l. and 2l. notes of the Fife bank were dispersed amongst the poor, and it was expected that the industrious classes would have been great sufferers. But, at that critical moment, the national bank and the British Linen Company interfered, and averted the evil. They well knew what were the available effects of the house whose credit had been shaken. They were cognisant of the fact, that their concerns had been mismanaged for three years, by persons who were not acquainted with the proper mode of conducting business; and, under these circumstances, they stepped forward with their assistance. Those great establishments felt that there was such security as justified them in putting an end to the evil at once. But, did this circumstance afford any proof that the Scotch country banks were in danger? No such thing. It showed, on the contrary, that their foundation was solid, and that they commanded

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general confidence throughout the country. In this instance the two establishments which he had named said—"We will take up all the notes at once, because we are quite sure we can do so with perfect safety." Was this a proof of any thing else, but that those banking establishments which could command such relief were in a state of prosperity? It appeared that those who ministered their aid had the fullest possible confidence in the strength of the security offered. Looking to the proverbial caution of the people of Scotland, he was sure that no one would expect to see them going out of their way to assist their friends; no one would suppose that, in a chivalric mood, they would, without any attention to their own interests, study the good of their friends alone, by keeping these 1l. and 2l. notes in their hands, if they imagined they were likely to suffer by such a proceeding. But the fact was, that the people of Scotland were perfectly satisfied with the currency. Now, he should be glad to know, on what principle the noble earl meant to alter the system which had so long prevailed in Scotland, and which had not been attended there with any inconvenience? There was not a man in that country, he would venture to say, from the highest to the lowest, merchant, manufacturer, or tradesman, who wished any alteration to be made. Why, then, should the noble earl apply to that country a remedy, which he found it necessary to resort to for the purpose of eradicating a disease that happened to be prevalent in this, but which had not visited Scotland? As well might a physician who had cured one of their lordships of a painful disease by a violent medicine, prescribe it in all cases. It would be strange, if that physician, having been called in to attend one of the reverend prelates opposite, should say, "I have seen most excellent effects produced by this medicine, and, as I have anointed my lord such-a-one, I must be permitted to anoint you also," although the reverend prelate's age and gravity of his calling might fairly be supposed to exempt him from the necessity of using such a medicament. In this way, the noble earl was about to extend to the people of Scotland a remedy, when in fact no evil existed which called for it. On the contrary, the existing system had prevailed for a century and a half, and no inconvenience, no mischief, had been known to result from it. In the course of
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the discussion to which the subject of the currency must give rise, he would take an opportunity of explaining fully to their lordships the calamity which an extension to Scotland of the noble earl's principle was likely to produce. He had done his utmost to convince their lordships; first, that government had mistaken the cause of the injury; and secondly, that the remedy would create a greater degree of suffering than noble lords had anticipated. It was a remedy which was to take place in the course of three years; but, in that time, the situation of the country might be very different from what it was at present. The noble earl was sanguine in his expectation of the establishment of joint-stock bank companies. For his own part, he thought it was vain to hope for them. The disease was really of the nature which he had described. It arose from a great extra supply in the first place, and a great extra demand of capital in the second; and such being its origin, it appeared to him that the measure now proposed would not remove it.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that after what had fallen from his noble friend who had just sat down, he would endeavour, as much as possible, to avoid touching on several of the topics noticed by him. To one point in particular which his noble friend had mentioned he would not advert at all, or, if he did, but very slightly, as his noble friend had thrown around it a sort of cordon sanitaire. His noble friend had been justly induced, in dealing with this important subject, not to confine himself to the bill immediately before the House. He had viewed it, as their lordships ought to view it, with reference to the general state of credit, to the circulation of the country, and to the operation of other measures which it was the intention of his majesty's ministers to propose. He trusted, therefore, that he might be allowed to claim somewhat of the same indulgence in considering this subject. The topics to which he alluded necessarily divided themselves into two parts; the one was that which the noble earl had described as having been lately adopted by the king's government with a view to the immediate relief of the country; the second was that which had been proposed to parliament for the purpose of administering, if not a complete, at least a powerful remedy against a recurrence of that ruinous disorder, the existence of which no man attempted to deny. These

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different classes of measures were totally distinct, inasmuch as they rested on grounds essentially different. One of them assumed to be founded on a recurrence to the old and wise principle of placing the credit and currency of the country on a sound and permanent foundation; while the other was admitted to be a departure from an established principle, authorized and justified by the immediate necessity of the case. He would, in the first place, call the attention of their lordships to the measure which had been adopted with respect to the Bank. That measure had, he understood, been only determined on in the course of the last few days, and they had that night, for the first time, received correct information on the subject from the noble earl opposite. Admitting that the distress of the commercial world had arrived at such a pitch as justified the government in calling on the legislature to interfere with respect to that which was the common concern of all men, still he must say, that such a proceeding was a departure from sound principle. Because, in his view of the subject, every attempt on the part of the government to interfere with the currency of the country, was, to whatever extent it proceeded, a departure from those sound principles which every intelligent writer on the subject maintained. He confessed the impression on his mind was, that, under such a necessity as was described, it would have been better to have taken the course which the noble earl informed them had been rejected by his majesty's government, than that which they had preferred. The course they had adopted would, in his opinion, operate more indirectly and less effectually than the other; and he would shortly state the grounds on which he came to that conclusion. It was laid down as abroad fact, that the present state of public credit rendered parliamentary interference absolutely necessary. If it were so, then that interference should be as efficient as possible: it should go directly to the root of the evil which it was proposed to remove. What, then, was the evil which was to be remedied? It was not so much the absence of money which the country felt, as the want of confidence in a certain class of individuals who required to be relieved. The noble earl said, that to correct this state of things, the Bank had been induced to go into the market and to purchase 2,000,000 l. of Exchequer bills.
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Such a purchase must have a considerable effect on the market, namely, that of throwing in 2,000,000 l. in addition to the currency already in circulation; but, non constat that those 2,000,000 l. would find their way (so immediately at least as could be wished) to those parties who were the objects of relief. This issue could have no other effect at the moment except to aid and assist speculations in the market. It would aid the speculations of those who were in the habit of trafficking in Exchequer bills; but it would not find its way into the pockets of individuals, who, supposing their property and their different securities good and solid at any other time, were distressed because those securities were not available at the present moment. This measure would, therefore, fail, in a great degree, in administering relief at the present moment. The primary object of the measure described by the noble earl, certainly was not to raise the rate of Exchequer bills, but to extend relief to those who were suffering from the pressure of the times. The plan might do very well for the Exchequer, but their lordships must look to that which was the primary object of the measure; namely, the relief of certain individuals; and he must contend, that this departure from an established principle was not the best mode of effecting that object. The most efficient course would have been to follow the example (to the extent which the noble earl had stated) which had been set in the year 1793. In doing this, ministers would have had the benefit of experience: they would have known that the plan then adopted, however objectionable in point of principle, had been attended with the effect which it was hoped would follow from it, and that, too, without any ultimate loss accruing from the plan. On these grounds, therefore, although he was as slow as any man could be in admitting, under any circumstances, the addition of one more to those most dangerous precedents which permitted the interference of government—even for a good purpose—in adding to the circulation of the country, yet, having arrived unhappily at that state of things in which it became necessary to take this attitude, he certainly would, on the whole, have wished ministers to have availed themselves of the beaten path, attended, as such a course would have been, by the benefit and influence of past experience. He had thought it right to state thus much, both on account

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of the principle which the measure involved, and the mischief which might arise from it.—He should now dismiss this part of the question, and enter on the consideration of the larger and perhaps the more important topic, because it embraced the whole case—he meant that view of the subject which related to the cause of the evil, and which treated of a permanent remedy for it. One of the questions which had been asked the noble earl opposite, and those who were convinced that the present state of things called for a direct interference on the part of the government, might, he conceived, be easily answered. That question was, "Why should you interfere with the principle of free trade in a paper circulation any more than in any other article?" Now, advocate as he was for the general principles of free trade, he could see no connexion whatever between those principles and the principles by which the circulation was governed. He could not maintain the principles on which free trade proceeded without admitting this exception, that, with respect to those regulations which governed the intercourse between man and man, and, of course, property, it was fitting for government, under particular circumstances, to interpose. If the legislature were allowed to alter weights and measures which were used for the ordinary purposes of the country, be conceived it to be quite clear, that it was equally the duty of the legislature to interpose for the sake of giving to individuals, either coin, or that which, under peculiar circumstances, they were compelled to receive as coin, to the extent and to the full real value of that which their labour or their merchandise ought to command. They ought to receive the full real value, not a nominal and fictitious value; and the legislature certainly had a right to effect that object. For his own part, he could conceive no principle more hostile to free trade, than that which would tie up the hands of the legislature in such a case, and allow one man to put his hands in the pocket of another, and take out of it as much as he pleased. Admitting the necessity of this interference—admitting that the present crisis demanded this interposition—he was of opinion, in common with every enlightened person in the country, that the evil was inherent in the system as it now stood. Some individuals, however, thought that the present was not a proper moment for
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the discussing and setting at rest this important question. They contended, that a period of greater calm and tranquillity ought to be selected for that purpose. He knew not what the noble earl opposite felt on the subject; but if by any means the legislature could, for a period of six months or a year, suspend the wheel of currency, and put a chain and drag on it, so that, at the expiration of that time, it would be in the same situation as it was at the present moment, he would not object to the delay. Looking at the present system as exceedingly defective, he would, in that case, willingly take a later period, for the purpose of making an effectual alteration. But they all knew, that when the wheel of circulation was out of order, it could not be made to stand still in the way which he had described; and if it were admitted, as he believed and trusted it was admitted by all persons, that there was an indispensable necessity for altering the system of the currency, it was for the legislature to consider, whether it was not far less galling to impose those fetters when the members were contracted, rather than to select a period when they would be distended and enlarged, and when, in consequence, it would be a much more difficult duty to impose those necessary restraints. He thought a full case had been made out for parliament to act, and to act at once; and, when he looked to the state of disorder which prevailed, arising partly from speculation and partly from the currency (on which he would presently say a word or two with reference to what had fallen from his noble friend), he thought that the legislature could not proceed with too much celerity. When such was the situation of affairs, was it matter of supererogation to inquire, whether there had not been, in a period of profound peace—without any circumstance from abroad that could affect or alter the internal condition of the country—was it, he demanded, too much to ask, whether there had not been effected, in that time of calm and tranquillity, a greater change and convulsion in the mercantile property of Great Britain, than had been effected in the kingdom of France in 1815, when that country was overran and conquered by foreigners? When he was asked, what he conceived to be the reason of this mighty change—was he wrong, if he stated in answer, that there was something fundamentally wrong in the system on which the cur-

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rency of this country rested, and which alone caused this convulsion? The evil which existed in the present day was not only felt amongst those whose trade was speculation, but it had found its way even to the lowest classes of life. Ought not the legislature, then, to consider what the existing law was, and to see how far the currency was affected by that law? The noble earl opposite attributed the evil almost entirely to over speculation; but he must contend, that the real source of the evil was to be traced to the state of the currency. The state of the currency produced speculation; which was, in fact, the secondary evil. That point, however, lie did not think very material for discussion in that House. It was manifest, by a reference to events which had occurred in the last two years, that between the currency and speculation there was a mutual action and re-action. No commercial country, like that in which they lived, could exist without being affected by the spirit of speculation; and it was the peculiar nature of the currency in this country, as it at present stood, to administer ample food to that speculation which was of the most mischievous and of the most unbounded description. He thought a case was fairly made out to induce their lordships to interfere, and to adopt some efficient remedy for this crying evil. His noble friend had, however, found out another reason for this extensive speculation. He had stated, that one of the great causes, indeed almost the sole cause, of this unusual spirit of speculation, was the application of 5,000,000 l. annually as a sinking fund. This his noble friend looked upon as an addition to the speculating capital of the country. He argued, that if these 5,000,000 l. were not taken from the people, the speculating capital would be diminished to that amount; but that, when applied as a sinking fund, it really became a speculating capital. Now, he could not see that the 5,000,000 l. thus taken annually out of the pockets of the people tended more to increase the speculating capital, than if that sum were suffered to remain in their pockets. The speculation, he believed, would be exactly the same in either case. There was, however, this difference—the sinking fund consisted of 5,000,000 l. of real capital, but the evil against which they had now to contend was, that of a nominal capital and a nominal surplus, which were forced out for the moment for the purposes of
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speculation. Now, on looking back a little, what circumstances did he find; with respect to the speculative proceedings which afterwards took place? Previous to the period of those speculations being generally undertaken, he found an issue from the Bank increasing in the ratio of 8 per cent, from 1824, and producing some unfavourable effect. He also found in 1825, after the Bank issues had increased, that the issue of country bank notes, on the average of three years, had been increased about 33 per cent. Gold, he perceived, in consequence, rapidly left the country. Then came a sudden demand for that metal; and then came those failures, and all those unfortunate circumstances, with which their lordships were well acquainted. The increased issues of the Bank of England, in 1824, led to an extension of the issues of the country banks. This created a rise of prices in London, and goods were sent in large quantities from the country to the metropolis. The same thing occurred in the country. An opposition rise of prices, not a beneficial one, took place there also. Thus, the issues of country paper were extended, and these, together with the additional issues of the Bank of England, produced that state of things which they were now called upon to alter and amend. When, however, he stated this, with respect to the Bank of England, he was sure no one would suspect him of thinking that the gentlemen in the direction of that establishment were at all aware of the effect and influence of those issues. He believed they were not only not aware of the effects which they were likely to produce, but that, if they had been aware of its probable consequences, they were so hampered by their relations with government, in consequence of issues which were placed out of their own reach, and which were made under the sanction of the government and the parliament, that they could not have warded off the evil. They were not, in fact, in that free situation in which the Bank of England ought to be placed. They were not able to exercise an immediate control over their own issues; and, being in that situation, the machinery of their establishment could not act properly. The Bank directors were not in that situation in which a body, having a great influence over the circulation of the country, ought to be placed. The noble earl opposite, in referring to the state of the relations between the government and

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the Bank, had adverted to 6,000,000 l. of Exchequer-bills held by that body; but, was that the whole amount of the weight which the transactions with government had pressed on the Bank? Was there no further sum placed beyond their control? Or was not that only a part of the burthen which deprived them of acting with that facility which they ought to possess, to enable them to contract their issues when necessary? Undoubtedly this was not the only clog on the exercise of their discretion. In addition to that, they had provided for what was called the deficiencies in the 4 per cents. That, he believed, was made good by the Bank to the amount of 3,500,000 l. And, beyond all this, they had another charge, arising from that most extraordinary act of parliament, adopted some years ago on the suggestion of the noble earl, and agreed to by parliament. That plan, thus recognized by parliament, rested on one of the most extraordinary conundrums that was ever heard of, and was most appropriately denominated "the Dead Weight." By that plan, they were called on at one and the same moment to raise taxes on the present generation, for the relief of posterity and to raise taxes on posterity for the relief of the present generation. This was a conundrum so strange, so unaccountable, that he did not think any noble lord would rise for the purpose of defending it. This "Dead Weight" was attended with the bad effect of increasing the difficulties of the Bank; for, by this extraordinary scheme, no less a sum than 8,000,000 l. was taken out of the hands of the Bank, and completely placed beyond their control. They, in consequence, found themselves unable to act when the circulation of country Bank paper had increased in the ratio of 33 per cent. They were then obliged, instead of giving that effectual relief which they otherwise might have done, to allow the evil to flow unchecked in its mischievous course. He remained, and always should remain, the firm supporter of the doctrine which held as beneficial, a paper currency convertible into cash; but it was necessary to have a sound circulation in the country, that the convertibility of paper into cash should be immediate—that the check to an improper issue of paper might be resorted to without delay. But, unhappily, such a state of things had arisen in this country as prevented the application of that check and remedy, until a
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great number of persons had sunk under the pressure of the times, overwhelmed by the misfortunes attendant on rash speculations. Neither government nor parliament could do any thing at the moment to arrest the evil. It had, however, in some degree, effected its own cure, for the exchanges had at length come round. The circulation had been narrowed, the exchanges had turned in our favour, and there bad been a rapid flow of gold into the country. There were other material circumstances which influenced the situation of the Bank, and which he hoped would never occur again. One of the circumstances which operated, in addition to those he had already stated, was the advances made by the Bank—he believed at the instigation of government—in the shape of loans on mortgages [The earl of Liverpool intimated, that this was not the case]. He had heard that government had advised the measure; but he was extremely glad to hear that it was not so, because he was convinced that it was a system of operation which it must injure any banking company to engage in. It added to that portion of the circulation which was tied up and taken out of the hands of the Bank. He thought he saw, most distinctly, the different steps by which the present system was produced. In 1824, he saw an undue issue of paper on the part of the Bank, and much of that issue placed out of the reach of their own control. He then saw a powerful effect produced on the state of prices throughout the country by the extension of the country-bank circulation, which was incidental to the state of things then existing, and the facility afforded for the issue of paper. And then, in 1825, came that heigh-day of public prosperity which they had been taught to believe was never to have an end. Parliament was then induced to congratulate his majesty, and his majesty in return, to congratulate the parliament, on so apparently sound, permanent, and prosperous a state of affairs.—Now, when he was told, that the approach of all the subsequent mischief was seen by his majesty's ministers, however much he concurred with them in the remedy which they now proposed, he could not express that concurrence without, at the same time, throwing some blame on the government, for not having, if they had foreseen the evil, applied to it those measures which, at a late period, they had felt it necessary to adopt. At the very moment, however,

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when all this mischief was in progress—when the worst evils were afloat—when the one and two pound country notes were in active circulation—and when the exchanges were beginning to turn against this country, he found his majesty, at the close of the session, thus addressing the two Houses, on the subject of the measures which had been adopted, for the purpose of extending our commercial relations:—"These measures, his majesty is persuaded, will evince to his subjects in those distant possessions, the solicitude with which parliament watches over their welfare; they tend to cement and consolidate the interests of the colonies with those of the mother country; and his majesty confidently trusts that they will contribute to promote that general and increasing prosperity on which his majesty had the happiness of congratulating you on the opening of the present session, and which, by the blessing of Providence, continues to pervade every part of his kingdom." Now, he did not mean to contend, that there was not much prosperity in the country; that there were not materials upon which solid and permanent prosperity might be founded; but he would complain, that at the very moment when this Speech was made, notwithstanding the avowed knowledge of his majesty's ministers, that there was great mischief brewing, with respect to the state of the currency, parliament was suffered to separate, in July, 1825, without any step being taken to alter the state of the currency, so as to prevent the frightful misfortunes which had since occurred. If any step had then been taken, it would have been impossible for the evil to have reached the height which it attained in the autumn of that year. He therefore could not concur in the measures proposed, without expressing some regret that no provision was made at that time for retracing those steps which parliament had been induced to take in 1822, for the purpose of throwing into circulation that addition to the issues of the country banks which some individuals believed to be absolutely necessary. It was now proposed to deal with the one and two pound notes; but, he thought, nothing completely effectual could be done while there was so great a portion of the issues of the Bank of England locked up and placed beyond the control of that body. The lessons which they had received for the last three years clearly proved the great importance of placing the entire
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currency of the country on a broad metallic basis. For any other purpose he was quite sure that the interference of parliament could produce nothing but mischief. Whenever parliament attempted to give a fictitious aid to the currency, the attempt had uniformly failed. There was no royal, there was no parliamentary, road by which they could contract engagements, beyond what they had the means and power of fulfilling. The attempt to bolster up a bad system of currency was always attended with extreme difficulty, and never could succeed. All those who looked to the history of past years would see, that every effort to interfere with the currency, except that which had for its object the introduction of a permanent metallic circulation, proved the folly of the principle on which the attempt proceeded, and led to effects of the most mischievous character. No sooner had that famous resolution been passed some years ago, ascribing to the bank note a value that did not belong to it, than the evil of such a monstrous proceeding became manifest. He adverted to that resolution with less hesitation than he would otherwise have done, because he understood it was not, as had been supposed, the offspring of a noble friend of his (lord Bexley) now present. That noble lord, however, had taken up and adopted the foundling; and he it was who gave it that existence, in the Journals of the other House of parliament, to which it was by no means entitled. No sooner was that unfortunate resolution adopted by the other House, which declared that a pound note and a shilling were equal in public estimation to a guinea, than parliament was employed, and had continued to be so employed ever since, in providing against the consequence which necessarily arose from the difference that manifested itself between the value of the one pound note and the golden sovereign, in this and in every other country. No paper ought to be tolerated, except that which could be promptly and easily converted into gold. He certainly approved of the measures which the noble earl proposed for removing one portion at least of the paper circulation of the country; because it would afford that security to the poorer classes which should be a primary object with the legislature. The labourer had a right to reap the full benefit of the king's prerogative; and when he demanded the reward of his labour and his industry, he ought to receive it in that circulating me-

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dium which possessed a real, not a nominal, suspicious, and fluctuating value. The withdrawal of those notes would also materially alter the relation between the proportion of metallic and paper circulation; and unless it did that, he was sure that no benefit would result from the measure; and if the suppression of the one and two pound notes were not adequate to the accomplishment of that object, then he would recommend that parliament should proceed still further.—With respect to the other measure which was more immediately the object of the present proceeding—the formation of a different description of country banks—he certainly was one of those who thought that, in its present form, that measure would not be very extensively acted upon. But he sincerely hoped to find the scheme placed upon a more practicable footing; and that the Bank, which professed, and no doubt felt, a deep sympathy for the distresses of the country, when it became satisfied that it could not, by establishing branch banks, afford the relief desired under its own system, would not resist such an alteration in its charter as, without at all affecting its material rights, would substitute a sound and secure system of banking for an unsound and dangerous one, in places which their own circulation could never reach.—He did not doubt that, upon reflection, such would be the policy adopted by the Bank; and that parliament, by that alteration in the Bank charter, would be enabled to license chartered banks throughout the country; the condition of whose charter of limited responsibility being the annual publication of those accounts, all persons would have an opportunity of constant examination into the affairs of the parties whom they trusted; and the country would have, perhaps, the best system of banking which commercial interest and security could desire. To such a change of system, at all events, at the natural expiration of the Bank charter, he looked for a relief from that dangerous species of circulation which at present filled the country—a circulation under which no man knew, when he accepted a country note, scarcely whom he trusted, and never what he had to rely upon. With reference to Scotland and Ireland, where none of the evil under which our own country was suffering was found at present to exist, a greater space of time might perhaps be allowed for effecting the proposed change, than that which he understood the noble
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earl to suggest; but he agreed with the noble earl in the propriety of ultimately bringing both those countries under the operation of the same system. The experiment of delay for a few years might be tried, parliament keeping a watchful eye in the interim, and holding itself ready to apply the remedy the moment any symptom of disease appeared; but, ultimately, he looked most certainly to the system generally being made the same. The noble marquis, in conclusion, said, that he should reserve till a future opportunity the expression of his opinions on the subordinate parts of the noble earl's plan. On the general question he felt no difficulty in saying, that their lordships were about to legislate in the right way, and on right principles. The fortune of every individual was intimately connected with the settlement of the currency on a sound metallic basis. He begged to assure their lordships, that, if by obtaining temporary high prices, they hoped to benefit either their friends or themselves, they would find themselves greatly mistaken: for such temporary rise would necessarily be followed by a dreadful and ruinous depression. It was not more sure that any artificial excitement or fever must, in the body natural, subside into ultimate langour and exhaustion, than that the bubbles of speculation blown up by paper, would finally bring all articles of merchandise into the market at lower prices than they would otherwise legitimately obtain. If, therefore, on the score of justice, the parliament was not called upon to legislate, they were bound to do so in defence of their own interests, which were essentially bound up with that regularity and uniformity of prices which were the proper object of all legislation. They ought to enter upon this duty with the resolution to avoid the crisis heretofore admitted, and to adhere without deviation, to the path of sound principle, and, above all, with a determination to reduce and limit, instead of enlarging and increasing, that complicated relation between the government, the public, and the Bank, in which they were mixed up, by the present state of the currency.
Lord Bexleysaid, that he should not have trespassed on their lordships' attention, were it not that some allusion had been made to him by the noble marquis. With regard to the practical measure now proposed, he hoped it would not prove so defective as the noble lord opposite seemed to anticipate. He thought it

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would ultimately have the effect of correcting, to a great extent, the evil complained of. He could not think that the late difficulties were entirely to be attributed to the present banking system. When so great a proportion of the country banks still remained in a flourishing condition, they must, he thought, look for the origin of the evil in some other source; and he thought it would be found in the spirit of speculation that had taken possession of the country. The system, however, of joint-stock banking companies was one which he wished to see gradually established. The probable effect of this measure might be judged of from what had taken place in Ireland, within a very short period. In that country an alteration had been effected in the charter of the Bank, and the consequence was, that many joint-stock companies had been established, and were now, to the great convenience of the public, in full operation. The circulation of Ireland had thus undergone a material alteration for the better, particularly in the very important circumstance of security. There was no reason to despair of similar results here, when the proposed alteration took place in the charter of the Bank. It should be recollected that, not many years back, the shock which took place in Ireland, and the difficulties in its pecuniary transactions, arising from the failure of country banks, was much greater than it had been even here. It soon, however, recovered that shock, and, under the improved system, there was little probability that it would occur again. He wished to say a word or two with reference to the temporary relief which it was proposed to afford by the purchase of Exchequer-bills. On this point he differed from the noble lord opposite. He felt convinced that it must have a very beneficial effect. It should be remembered, that the difficulty to be provided against was a present deficiency in the circulating medium. Now, the effect of buying up Exchequer-bills by the Bank, would be to throw into circulation a considerable sum. However the Bank might increase its circulation, whether by issuing their paper upon discounts, or in the purchase of Exchequer-bills, the effect must be the same. The money, which thus got into circulation, would not remain with the individuals who sold the Exchequer-bills, but would, in no long time, find its way through all the various channels of trade. The relief thus afforded
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was more effectual and more speedy, than if government had come to the determination of issuing the same amount of Exchequer-bills, as had been done in former cases, when similar difficulties prevailed. If the latter course had been determined upon, it could not have been carried into effect without considerable delay. It must have undergone inquiry, and could not have been acted upon without the previous sanction of the legislature. Though quite confident that much good, must have resulted from either course, still, in the existing state of circumstances, he thought the wiser one had been adopted. The difference between them was, that by the operation of one, a large amount of currency must be immediately brought into circulation. This would not have been so in the other case. Besides, the course pursued had this advantage, that it was not, in fact, a measure of government, but of the Bank. In the observations which had fallen from the noble marquis, with respect to the conduct of the Bank, he fully concurred. They merited all the praise which had been bestowed upon them. During the many years he filled a public situation, he had frequent opportunities of intercourse with the directors, on matters connected with the most important public interests, and he had abundant opportunities of becoming acquainted with their integrity, their good faith, and their excellent management of the affairs committed to their charge. He could not admit, as had been contended, in the course of the debate, that the Bank were put to any inconvenience in consequence of their advances to government, or that they had thereby been prevented from coming forward to relieve the late difficulties in the money market. The securities they held from government might have been paid off, at any time within the last two years, or they might, if necessary, have sold them, to any extent they pleased. They might have sold the Exchequer-bills in their hands, or they might have brought the annuities connected with the half-pay and pensions to market, if they thought it necessary to dispose of a part of them. Upon this last part of their transactions with the government, the noble marquis had commented with great severity. In the first place, the noble marquis said, that, in the same year in which parliament had laid on taxes to the amount of three millions for the reduction of the national debt, and the relief of posterity, the charge

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of the naval and military pensions, which ought to have fallen on the present generation, was spread over a period of forty years for their relief. The fact was, that the three millions were imposed, in pursuance of a resolution of the House of Commons, passed so long ago as the year 1819. But, the Bank had taken no part of the annuity until four years afterwards. The plan of the annuity was not formed till 1822, when such an improvement had taken place in the finances of the country, as rendered it decidedly an advantageous measure at that time, whatever it might have been in 1819. The noble lord then proceeded to exculpate himself and his colleagues from the imputation of having contributed, by the act of 1822, to give a longer period to the circulation of small notes. It was perfectly true, that, in his official capacity he had with great regret proposed the bill, but he had accompanied it with another measure, which, if it had passed, would greatly have limited the mischiefs that had accrued. The noble lord then explained the character of the measure to which he was referring, and of another which he brought forward in 1818, having for its object to restrict the issue of small notes to such bankers as would give security. He objected to the power of issuing small notes, on the principle, that it was tantamount to the dangerous power of coinage to an unlimited extent. He entirely agreed with the noble marquis that the present was the most suitable and advantageous period that could be selected for the change. In justice and in mercy to the country bankers themselves, parliament was bound not to lose this opportunity. If they were allowed to revert to their former circulation, the pressure would be greater, when they were at any subsequent time called upon to contract it. At present, too, they would save the proportion of stamp duties they would otherwise be called on to pay. The quantity of gold required to supply the place of the notes would be small in proportion to the contraction of the circulation. Three or four millions would be all that would be called for, in the course of three years, to provide for the country circulation. Surely, that was not a sum, which could excite any great alarm. The measures, now proposed, were, he was satisfied, calculated to put the currency of the country on a solid foundation, and to prevent, for the future, all ruinous fluctuations of prices.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, he could not give his assent to the measures flow before parliament, without expressing his opinions freely with regard to them. The measures at present proposed, as he understood them, were three: one intended to afford immediate relief; and the other two to prevent a recurrence of the calamities under which the country laboured. His chief objection to the measure for present relief was, that it would not relieve those who were most deserving of it, and that, while it would relieve some, it would necessarily injure others. For example, while it relieved those, who would not convert their Exchequer-bills into cash at a discount, it injured the banks that had been obliged to sell them during the height of the panic. There was no proof of the want of a circulating medium. It was more extensive now than at the end of 1824; yet, the object of government was, to increase it, when its very extent was alleged as one of the causes of the distress. The great cause of distress was, that people were all called on to pay what they owed, at the same time, and much sooner than they expected. It pervaded every class and description of persons. He knew not by what means relief could be administered; but he was sure that the measure of the noble earl would not reach those who were innocently involved in the calamities that pressed on the country. But, the noble lords on the Treasury bench were not agreed as to the character of their own measures. The noble earl had admitted, that the measure relative to the country banks was only a half measure, and had expressed his regret that he could not grant charters to the many joint-stock companies at once, while the noble lord who spoke last regarded the measures as of the greatest importance, and was only afraid that too great a number of joint-stock banks would be instituted. For his part, the events of the last two or three years, he confessed did not induce him to look at joint-stock companies with a favourable eye. He was not, therefore, sorry at the delay which must take place in the full completion of the measures; and, therefore, he thought no injury would result from the circumstance of these new companies not being able immediately to obtain charters. When the period fixed by law arrived, the materials would be provided for establishing them on an extended basis. He trusted no events would occur to prevent his majesty's ministers

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from following up the course on which they had entered. No man evidently thought more deeply on the subject than the noble earl at the head of the Treasury, nor felt greater apprehensions from the present state of things. As it was impossible to doubt, that the noble earl was in favour of a system of restriction, it was to be regretted that into the present bill, out of which joint-stock banking companies might arise, a provision had not been inserted for the purpose of restricting such companies in their operations. The measure for putting an end to the circulation of small notes at the end" of three years, was a measure only of justice and humanity to the poorer classes, and therefore he highly approved of it; but, still, approving of it entirely, as far as its operation went, it was not, he thought, a measure which would reach to the causes of the existing mischief. For, if the noble earl at the head of government, looked at the papers on the table, he would find, that of 3,000,000 l. of country-bank paper, issued between last year and the year before, scarcely 1,000,000 l. had been issued in notes under 5l. Therefore, the putting an end to the circulation of 1l. and 2l. notes was not going far enough. To him it appeared idle to talk of the convertibility of notes into gold, while our system of country banking remained upon its present footing. If that system was allowed to go on, his firm persuasion was, that the country banks must ruin the Bank of England itself. In February of the last year, the Bank of England, seeing the foreign exchanges against us, had taken the just course to correct that mischief, by calling in more than 3,000,000 l. of their issues. What was the consequence? Why, that the country banks had immediately advanced their issues, for every pound which the Bank of England had withdrawn. Under such a system, it was physically impossible for the Bank to prevent foreign exchanges from being against us. At present, the Bank was compelled to take the risk, not only of its own trading, but of the trading of all the country banks. Its situation was one of great difficulty, and he was surprised how it had acquitted itself so well. It was absolutely necessary to the safety of the country, that the currency should be placed upon a solid foundation. He was quite sure that the noble earl must feel deep apprehension on the subject; and he trusted that after the present
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alarm had passed away—with seven years of delay for consideration, before the Bank charter would expire—that noble lord would propose some definitive scheme which should give confidence for the future. The convulsions which the country had sustained under the old system, did mischief far beyond any actual loss that was sustained. It was said that, by the recent failures, the country would lose2,000,000 l. in money; but, the real mischief was in the derangement in the transfers of property which such accidents produced. He viewed the whole of this subject as of the highest importance to the safety of the country; and he trusted that the noble earl, with all the authority which belonged to him, as head of the government, and in virtue of his great talents and personal integrity, would boldly face the subject, and come down to parliament, with some comprehensive plan for establishing a firm and solid system of banking.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that no clamour, no fear of the resistance they might meet with, would prevent his majesty's ministers from doing their duty fully with respect to this important subject. He trusted that their recent conduct was evidence of their resolution not to shrink from the task which they had prescribed to themselves. As to the mode of relief, to which the noble lord had objected, his opposition probably arose from his not having turned his attention to questions of that nature, and therefore not seeing the full bearing and operation of the course pursued by government. What was the state of the country? A general want of confidence. It was not that there was not the money; but every man shut up his resources, and looked only to himself. Many banks had already ceased to issue notes, though they had still the power to do so; and, in many other parts the public had absolutely refused to take them. There was a general want of confidence, and consequently a want of money. If the object of government had been merely to relieve the holders of Exchequer bills, it would have been highly improper; but the object was to throw two millions of money into active circulation, by which means they expected to relieve the country better than in any other way. If the noble lord had attended to the questions of the circulation, in 1819, he would have known, that in the committee of that House, their lordships had obtained lights

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on the subject which never shone on them before. They mostly, he believed, went into the committee, thinking that the issues of the Bank for the purchase of Exchequer bills were much less beneficial to the country than the issues for discounts; but they all came out of that committee satisfied, that there was no difference, in the end, as to the effect, whether the issues were in discounts or in government securities, whether they went in the first instance to particular individuals or the public at large. The Bank, it was known, had always acted with the greatest impartiality; but he spoke on high authority when he said, that whether relief was given by one means or by the other, precisely the same effect was produced. The greatest relief that could be given in the most satisfactory and safest way, would be given by the measure that had been adopted. It was not a measure of government, so much as of the Bank; although, he admitted, that it had been adopted with the advice of government; and he, for his part, was ready to take whatever responsibility attached to that advice. And if an addition was, by this measure, made to the circulation of the country, and a facility afforded to a relief of the present pecuniary embarrassments, it would be but fair to repay an equivalent to the Bank for the advances it had made in this way. The circulation of the Bank of England had been frequently, but erroneously, referred to, to determine the amount of the exchanges of the country. This was a mistake of the first Bullion committee. That committee considered the exchanges to depend upon the circulation of the Bank of England; whereas, they did not depend upon the circulation of the Bank alone, but on the circulation of the Bank, and that of the country generally. The whole paper of the country should be taken into consideration. As a proof that this was the case, he remembered a conversation which he had with the noble earl (Lauderdale), in which he remarked, that although the circulation of the Bank was then higher than it had ever been; it was then so high as twenty-eight millions—yet that all the exchanges were in our favour. Upon this remark of his the noble earl observed, that as the Bank increased its circulation, the notes of country bankers were withdrawn from circulation. This was a just observation, and satisfied him, that the whole of the circulation of the country, in the deter-
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mination of the exchanges, should be taken into consideration. Although the circulation of the Bank of England was at present high, yet it was not so high as perhaps for the good of the country, it might be. The exchanges, after all, were what it was most important to attend to; more so than the price of gold, as that was variable, and not easily to be determined. The great object, however, at present, was, to throw money into circulation throughout the country generally, and that would be more effectually done, in his opinion, by the present measure, than by any other that could be resorted to. It was a far more effectual one than any specific plan that might be suggested for throwing money into the hands of a certain class of individuals. It was a simple measure—a natural measure—and one, in every respect, preferable to that which had been proposed instead of it.
The bill was then read a second time. After which, the earl of Liverpool moved, that it be committed on Monday.