Sitting of 15 February 1826

USURY LAWS REPEAL BILL.
Mr. Serjeant Onslowrose to move for leave to bring in a bill to repeal the Usury Laws. After the repeated explanations he had given, upon former occasions, of his views upon this subject, it would be unpardonable were he now to occupy the time of the House in stating, he said, the reasons upon which his proposed plan was formed. He must, however, express his very sincere regret, that the House rejected his bill last session, because he was certain that, if they had allowed it to pass into a law, the late panic and its attendant distress, would have been much mitigated, and, in some of the great manufacturing districts, many difficulties would have been removed which were now severely felt. He could prove that, in many instances, more than 100 per cent had been given for money in the city of London, notwithstanding the operation of the usury laws. It was said on a former occasion, that his bill would injure the landed interest. He denied that this would be its effect; on the contrary, it would materially serve that important class. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill "to repeal the laws which prohibit the taking of interest for money, or limit the rate thereof."
Mr. Davenportrenewed his opposition to the measure, and would continue to resist it so long as he had a seat in that House. He saw no necessity for giving leave, year after year, to bring in a bill, which, in a future stage, they were determined to reject. His opposition was not out of discourtesy to the learned Serjeant, but to shorten the journey of this bill. His firm belief was, that nothing could be devised more mischievous for the landed interest than the proposed measure. It would necessarily disturb the whole mortgage system, affecting the property of the kingdom, and substitute a wild theory in the room of practical experience. He called upon the government to take a part in stopping the eagerness for introducing such bills, and to look to themselves in time, before a perseverance in error brought ruin upon the country.
Mr. Brightwas glad that the bill was thus early opposed. It was most extraordinary, that ministers should be absent from the House when such a discussion was coming on. The bill could not be a matter of indifference to them, with re-
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ference to their commercial and financial projects; and he trusted that they would take an opportunity either to avow or disavow it. It was not fitting that they should be absent when a question was under consideration which so materially affected the most important interests of the country. The measure must be either a very good or a very bad one; and, in either view of it, it ought to receive the most serious consideration of government. The landed interest ought not to be thus treated. In his opinion, if this bill were now passed, money upon mortgage could not be raised except at a most enormous rate. He hoped the country gentlemen would give their most strenuous opposition to a measure which, if passed, would be attended with the most injurious consequences to their interests.
Mr. C. Grantsaid, that his right hon. friend, the President of the Board of Trade, would have attended, had he not been confined to his house by indisposition.
Mr. Irvingsaid, that the bill would not have the injurious effect which some gentlemen apprehended. On the contrary, had it been in operation during the late crisis, the sacrifices made by individuals would have been much lighter than they unfortunately had been; and the House would not have heard of such enormous sums lost in the attempt to maintain the credit of individuals. He, for one, thought that in place of the present crisis affecting the introduction of such a bill, it was rather in favour of its justice and policy. At the same time he was ready to admit that there were a variety of considerations to be well weighed before it passed into a law. He certainly was prepared to vote for bringing in of the measure, and having it amply debated; the House would not take a stand against it in that early stage.
Mr. Benettobserved, that it was often necessary for those who were in want of money to borrow it at an extravagant rate, purely in consequence of these usury laws. By the repeal of those laws, the security for fair and liberal dealing in the transactions of borrowing and lending would be much increased. Persons of the most honourable characters would not then be deterred from coming into the market as lenders, and in this the borrowers would find their advantage. The proposed measure should have his cordial support.
Mr. Sykesthought that his learned friend

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had not been fairly dealt with, when it was thus attempted to stop the progress of the proposed bill in limine. Instead of endeavouring to defeat it at once, they had better have allowed it to be brought in, that it might be examined in all its bearings, especially with reference to the present crisis. The question was one of the greatest importance, and ought certainly to attract the most serious attention of government. And he was the more anxious that government should turn its attention to it, because he was convinced that the project could not be carried into execution without its co-operation. He confessed his surprise that, among their measures for the regulation of the currency, and for preventing the recurrence of the late calamitous scenes, this subject had not come under their consideration, and that ministers had not proposed to repeal the usury laws. It was most unaccountable, that gentlemen should think the bill would act against the landed interest. What was the situation of that interest at this moment? By law they were interdicted from paying more than 5 per cent interest for money; but the law was frequently evaded by resorting to the system of annuities—a system which had brought some of the noblest estates in this country into complete dilapidation. He supported this bill, because he thought, that so far from prejudicing the interests of the landed proprietors, it would be most advantageous to them. The policy of the measure was perfectly clear; and, as to its justice, why should any man be prevented from going into market with his commodity—for money was a commodity—and getting the highest price for it? Let his learned friend be permitted to bring in his bill, and he trusted that ministers would see good reason to carry it through, as one of their own regulations.
Mr. R. Gordonsaid, he must continue to oppose this bill. It had been said, that it was unusual to oppose the bringing in of a bill. So it might be, were it a new measure; but this was the identical bill which they had already, year after year, rejected. Why, therefore, allow their time to be further taken up with unavailing discussion? It was a waste of time to permit the preliminary stages of a bill, which they knew would, on the second reading, be rejected. If ministers chose to adopt the measure, and rest it on their own responsibility, then they ought to permit the bill to be brought in; but,
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when a private individual attempted to introduce it, it ought to be immediately resisted. An hon. member had adverted to the beneficial operation which the repeal would have on the condition of the country gentlemen. But it would be quite as well to allow the country gentlemen to judge for themselves, since they might naturally be supposed to be the best judges of their own interest.
Mr. Wodehousewas decidedly opposed to the bill, because he thought it impossible to calculate the effect which it might have upon the landed interest. His objection was, however, principally to the time of introducing the measure; and it was an additional instance of the reckless spirit of experiment which prevailed, and which had entailed already so much mischief on the community.
Colonel Daviessaid, he would suggest a mode by which the objections of the country gentlemen to the repeal of these laws might be obviated. If they were so enamoured of the usury laws, as to prefer granting annuities at a most extravagant rate, to the borrowing of money on reasonable terms, let a clause be introduced into the bill, excluding the country gentlemen from its operation. If they were so desirous of raising money on annuities, at 15 per cent, rather than borrow at a little more than 5 per cent, let them be permitted to do so.
Mr. Monckadverted to instances in which money might have been borrowed at little more than 5 per cent, but the law opposing this, the parties were reduced to the necessity of raising money by the sale of their goods, at a ruinously low rate. This would be a common occurrence, as long as these absurd laws remained upon the statute-book. He agreed, however, that the landed and trading portions of the community stood in different situations, and that the repeal of the usury laws might affect the one interest, in a different manner from that in which it would operate on the other. Money on mortgages was borrowed for a length of time; but a tradesman might want a loan for two months, and for that loan it might be worth his while to give a high consideration. The borrowers and lenders in these cases had different objects; and why should they have one measure for credit and security. If money could be raised at 5 per cent on the best landed security, how could those, who had only personal security to offer, expect to raise money

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at the same rate? The present crisis had thrown considerable light on the subject, and had proved how much better it would have been for many unfortunate persons, if they had been permitted to borrow money at a little more than 5 per cent, instead of being obliged to sell their goods at a most ruinous loss. The state of the law was most extraordinary. It, in effect, said this, to those who were in want of money:—"You cannot be permitted, whatever your difficulties may be, to borrow money at more than 5 per cent, because any thing above that would be exorbitant, and bring you to ruin. But, you may borrow money, by the sale of your property, at any rate you please, however destructive." Such was the state of the law; and it was of great importance to the commercial portion of the community, that it should exist no longer.
Mr. John Smithsaid, that since the discussion of this bill last session, much light had been thrown upon the subject. The House was aware of the panic in the money market last December, and he could state, of his own personal knowledge, the enormous sum which had been paid for pecuniary loans. He knew an instance in which, for a very large sum, no less than 75 per cent had been paid. What good purpose could the usury laws serve, when, in spite of those laws, money was, in cases of necessity, raised at such an immoderate rate. He thought the learned serjeant deserved the thanks of the country for his perseverance in this most important measure.
Mr. Wynngave his entire support to the proposed bill; and, in doing so, he felt that, instead of injuriously interfering with the landed interest, he was conferring a boon upon that body. He had known many instances of the bad effect of the usury laws, and particularly one about ten years ago, when a person, possessing a large landed property, had a mortgage which was standing for thirty years. The security was for 40,000 l., and 20,000 l. had been paid off, when the remainder was called in. It was impossible, at the time, to get this sum at the usual rate of interest, and 9 per cent was obliged to be paid by annuity to take off the unredeemed mortgage. This annuity-interest continued for a considerable time, until money could be obtained under more favourable circumstances. When the committee sat upon the usury laws, they had before them several eminent solicitors, who con-
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curred in opinion, that the landed interest would be benefitted by the change. A great deal had been said about the wisdom of our ancestors, and the authority of ancient statutes; but, let any one examine the state of the laws generally when such statutes were framed, and they would see that it was attempted at that time to regulate by law the price of every article of consumption. Nay, to such an extreme was this spirit of interference carried, that the lord chancellor had the power, even since the Restoration, of regulating the price of wine. Deeming it essential to the interests of the country generally, that these laws should undergo an alteration, he should give his cordial support to the measure.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, that when government itself gave 6 or 7 per cent for money, it was not surprising if private individuals sometimes found it difficult to borrow at 5 per cent. With respect to the proposed bill, if ministers would take upon themselves the responsibility of supporting it, he would not oppose its introduction; but, if it was to be considered merely as the measure of an individual, teazing the House with the discussion, session after session, then he would undoubtedly oppose it in limine. An hon. member had stated, that he knew of transactions in the city, in which money had been borrowed at as high a rate as 75 per cent. Why, it was a common practice in the city to borrow money in that way, upon continuation. These were mere gambling transactions; and, if he were to state all that he knew about these matters, he could present a scene of gambling which must appal those who had paid no attention to such matters. But these gambling bargains had nothing to do with this bill. The passing of it would have no effect upon them whatever. Let the learned gentleman withdraw this bill, and introduce another, of which the operation would be confined to trade, excluding money lent on mortgage. Then, if the trading bill worked well, perhaps the landed interest would consent to participate in the experiment. The only result of such a bill as this would be, generally, to increase the rate of interest. They were for ever told of the terrible operation of annuities, and spendthrifts would still be found, even if this bill were passed, to fly to annuitants to satisfy their cravings; but the amount of annuities, as compared with mortgages, were small indeed; not

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in a greater proportion than as forty to one. So that if they entertained the subject, they would be passing a law for the exception, and not for the rule. He was sorry the learned gentleman had not been made a judge during the vacation; for, if he had been removed out of that House, no other member could have been found to foster his bantling. At all events, he must deprecate the discussion of this important question, unless it was gravely taken up by ministers, and considered in a calm and dispassionate manner. The minds of the people were too full of the dangers which surrounded them, to be diverted from fitter considerations by the agitation of such a question as this. If such a bill were passed, was it likely that the Bank would permit the 1,200,000 l. which they had now out at 4 per cent to remain at that rate of interest? The Bank proprietors would not allow the thing to remain, even if the directors were so inclined. Indeed, every man who had money out upon mortgage would, in such a case, recall it, and demand better terms. It was a very impolitic step to bring forward this measure, when money matters, so far as the interest of mortgages was concerned, were in a satisfactory state. Those who were really interested were perfectly satisfied with their present condition. Why, therefore, disturb it? Unless he heard that this measure was to have the sanction of ministers, he would take the sense of the House on the motion, if pressed. He hoped, however, that he should not be driven to this course, but that the learned serjeant would withdraw it.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that as he was not present at the commencement of the discussion, he was but imperfectly qualified, if qualified under any circumstances, to give an opinion upon the measure. That it was one which was entitled to serious consideration, he readily acknowledged; and all must feel that the manner in which it had been disposed of last session afforded no satisfactory proof of the sense of the House upon it. His right hon. friend, the chancellor of the Exchequer, had been too much engaged on important matters connected with the state of the country, to allow him to give the subject that attention which it required. He hoped, therefore, that the learned gentleman would postpone the measure for a short period, in order allow his right hon. friend time for its consideration. On the
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second reading of the bill, his right hon. friend would be prepared to give the House his views with respect to an alteration of these laws. No one, he apprehended, could have the least doubt as to the principle of the bill which the learned serjeant sought to amend; and he felt bound to say, that it was with him a very serious question, whether the operation of the usury laws had not contributed, in a most unfortunate degree, to increase the late distress.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, that after what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman, he would withdraw his opposition to the introduction of the measure.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

BUBBLE ACT.
Mr. Hobhouserose for the purpose of putting a question to the attorney-general. It was in the recollection of the House, that towards the close of the last session, the learned gentleman introduced a bill, which was subsequently passed, for the purpose of repealing the act commonly called the "Bubble Act." At that time it was intimated, that a measure would be introduced by a learned lord in the other House, which would strike at the root of fraudulent transactions in the formation of companies. The question which he wished to ask was, whether it was in the contemplation of his majesty's ministers, or the law officers of the Crown, to introduce any such measure in the present session? There was a very uneasy sensation on the subject of the fraudulent transactions of the last year, and fears were entertained that similar attempts might again be made. He, therefore, was anxious to know whether any measure would be introduced, by which, if the public did not receive indemnity for the past, they might at least have security for the future.
The Attorney-Generalsaid, he was not aware that any such measure was in contemplation, nor did he think it was at alt necessary. As the law now stood, it was sufficient to reach any fraudulent attempts, by any number of persons forming themselves into illegal companies. If the fact of any fraudulent attempts could be proved against any individuals, the law as it stood, was sufficient to reach and punish them, without the aid of any new enactment.

EXCHEQUER BILLS.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of

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ways and means, Mr. Herries moved, "That the sum of 3,500,000 l., a part of the sum now remaining in the Exchequer, to complete the aids granted for the service of the years 1823, 1824, and 1825, be applied to the service of the year 1826."
Mr. Humebegged to ask, whether it was the intention of government to leave the Bank to make purchases of these Exchequer-bills, as they had hitherto done; and whether they were, at one time, by a great over-issue, and, at another, by restraining that issue, to put at hazard the property of Englishmen, whenever they thought fit? If men had been guilty of some of the mad speculations and improvident sacrifices attributed to them, let them take their fate; but let not: the innocent be confounded with the guilty. It would require strong proofs to satisfy the minds of the public, that the Bank of England had not, by purchasing immense quantities of Exchequer-bills at one time, and issuing them out in equally immense quantities at another, aggravated the late unfortunate panic. He had strong objections to a power remaining in the hands of any set of men to raise and sink the market at their pleasure, from five to ten per cent. Every country banker, too, should be compelled, four times in the year, to furnish an account of all his issues in the preceding quarter. Such a proceeding would, in some measure, be a check upon the over-issue which had been the subject of complaint. They ought also to know the amount of all the Exchequer-bills which had been purchased by the Bank of England, that they might discover, if possible, the reason why Exchequer-bills had been, at one time, at from 35 s. to 50 s. discount.
Mr. Maberlythought there would be but little security to the holders of Exchequer-bills, until the public were made better acquainted with the nature of the Bank transactions with government, and with their dealing in those bills, than they were at present. There were instances in which the Bank had gone into the market and made purchases, so as to raise the value of those bills 20 s. The Bank had a right to do so if they pleased, and they had also a right to withhold their proceedings from the public. But he trusted that the government and the Bank would see the necessity of relaxing on this point. They had of late acted in a most liberal manner; but they would deserve still more praise, if they consented to make
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their transactions more public than heretofore. This was necessary in consequence of their intimate connexion with government.
Mr. Irvingalluded to the purchase of Exchequer-bills by the Bank, and contended that the directors were justified in those purchases. If the circulating medium was not sufficient for the wants of the country, no injury was done by the purchase of those bills. If it was too much, why should not the Bank sell? The object of mercantile men was to procure discounts for short periods, and it was of little consequence to them whether those discounts were afforded them from an issue of Exchequer-bills, or a deposit of bullion. If the Bank had the means of purchasing Exchequer-bills, he saw no reason why they should be prevented. The events which had taken place had, in many parts of the country, left the people without any means of barter. If government would send down 3 or 400,000 l. to be distributed by skilful clerks, on good security, in the various provinces, it would, in his judgment, restore the deficiencies in the circulation, and relieve that class of the community who most required assistance.
Mr. Brightthought ministers should have directed more of their attention to the condition of the country in 1793. If they had compared it with the present, they would have seen that the two were nearly similar; they would also have seen that the remedy adopted by government at that period had had a considerable effect in relieving the distress. Why, then, should not they have recourse to the same means of averting the evil? If the issue of Exchequer-bills in 1793 had been productive of such beneficial effects, what was there to prevent a similar issue of them now from operating in the same way? The situation of the country was so peculiar, that it would afford an ample justification to government for deviating a little from any stern principle which they might have formed for the guidance of their proceedings on ordinary occasions. It was absolutely necessary that some plan should be devised for supplying the provinces with a circulating medium. If 300,000 l. were dispersed in small sums, under the direction of skilful persons, through different parts of the country, it would, in his opinion, have a greater effect in relieving the present distress than any other measure which could be devised.
Mr. Pearsesaid, it was the duty of the Bank to be cautious how they interfered with prices; and, as to Exchequer-bills, they ought not to deal in them, unless there was a necessity; but, when that necessity arose, it was unbecoming the hon. member for Aberdeen to make repeated attacks on the Bank. These were times when men ought rather to endeavour to remove impressions which affected public confidence than encourage them. An advance of money must come sooner or later from the government, and the sooner the better. He was sorry that ministers had not been prevailed upon to listen to the application that had been made to them; for he was sure that sooner or later the assistance applied for must be granted.
Mr. Humesaid, he had not blamed the Bank for what they had done. What he had complained of was, that the Bank had the power at will of raising the value of every man's property, by dealing in Exchequer-bills; and he had made the observation that the House might be able to ascertain the extent of the dealings of the Bank, and their effect on prices. It was no assertion of his, but a general opinion in the city, that, during the recent distress, the interference of the Bank in the money market had produced a very sensible effect; and, until the necessary infomation was laid before the House, he must abstain from giving praise where he was not sure it was due. Indeed, he feared there had been much irregularity in the dealings of the Bank. It had been very justly observed by the late director, Mr. Ricardo, that it was the duty of the Bank Directors to make the best bargain they could with the government for the proprietors. The evils caused by the fluctuation in the value of Exchequer-bills, should be ascribed to the government, and not to the Bank. If the government had no debt, there would be no need of Exchequer-bills. It was owing to this, that the right hon. gentleman, though he admitted the present disastrous situation of the country, did not dare to sanction the issuing of even 500,000 l. worth of Exchequer-bills for the purpose of relieving it, lest the exchanges should be thereby turned against us. Had the sinking fund been applied in buying up Exchequer-bills, the evils which had arisen from the fluctuations in their value could never have occurred. What those evils must have been he would eave to hon. gentlemen to figure to them-
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selves, when he reminded them that these bills had, in the course of a very few days, been reduced from sixty-five shillings premium to four guineas discount. In his opinion, the resolution adopted by this House the other evening was calculated to increase the present distress, by causing a considerable portion of the circulating medium to be withdrawn.
Mr. Irvingsaid, he should wish to know, if Exchequer-bills were not issued, how the Bank of England were to give a sufficient supply of notes? Perhaps it would be answered, by discounting mercantile bills; but it was not at all times that these discounts were required. In December and January last there was a considerable portion of mercantile bills presented to the Bank to be discounted; but of late there had been so little trade, that, comparatively speaking, few discounts were wanted. In his opinion, the buying and selling of stock contributed much more to the fluctuations in the value of property than any traffic in Exchequer-bills. He considered that the best and most convenient issue of the Bank rested on Exchequer-bills. They afforded a much more regular and certain channel through which Bank issues might be supplied than any other. He was sorry that ministers had treated so lightly the application which had been made to them; for ultimately they would be compelled to have recourse to the measure suggested. The salvation of the country depended upon it. It had been urged, that the refusal was necessary to check further speculations. This, in the present situation of the country, was an objection too frivolous to require an answer.
Mr. Maberlywas of opinion, that if any plan was attempted for relieving the present distress which should cause the exchanges to turn against us, the distress would be very considerably aggravated. The government were placed in a very difficult situation. It must be recollected that they had already a debt of 30,000,000 l. in an unfunded state. In his opinion, the Bank might accommodate the merchants by discounts at a longer date than usual, upon having goods deposited as a security. They might readily get a bill passed for enabling them to do this.
Mr. Humesaid, that when it was considered that the Bank had 18,000,000 l. locked up in the hands of government, it could not be expected that they could afford that accommodation to the public

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which it would otherwise have been in their power to have afforded. Government having absorbed all their capital, the Bank had only their profits, wherewith they could grant discounts to the merchants. What was the amount of those profits was kept a mystery. No such secrecy prevailed in the affairs of any other public bank. There was no such mystery as to the affairs of the banks of France and America. The amount of the weekly discounts at the Bank should be known to the public. He did not mean to blame the Bank. If they were apprehensive that the exchanges were likely to be turned against this country by an extensive issue, under present circumstances, they had acted right in contracting their discounts.
Mr. C. Grantsaid, he was astonished to hear an hon. member declare that the ministers had treated this momentous subject with levity. There was one consolation in the midst of all their difficulties, namely, that even the gentlemen who habitually opposed the government, had clone justice to the feelings of his right hon. friend the chancellor of the Exchequer; and he was persuaded that no man, who investigated the subject dispassionately, could doubt, that, if the government had acted erroneously, it at least proceeded from a strong desire to render that assistance which their feelings prompted them to render, but which their public station prevented them from carrying into execution. They were assailed on all sides by devices and projects for relieving the public distresses. The hon. member for Bristol had said, that the ministers ought not to adhere to principles; but he could assure that hon. member, that if ministers had hearkened to the various counsels offered them, there was nothing in principles or morals from which they must not depart, or a single principle of policy which they must not have subverted. With respect to the effect of issuing Exchequer-bills, it appeared to him to be of little importance to the public how the Bank notes found their way into the market, so that they secured an adequate circulating medium.
Mr. T. Wilsonwas of opinion, that an issue of Exchequer-bills by government, would have proved more beneficial than any relief which could be granted by the Bank. It had been observed, that the Bank should be liberal in their discounts; but the parties to whom the Bank were in
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the habit of granting discounts, were not the persons who stood most in need of assistance. The persons wanting relief were those who dealt in goods. In his opinion, the issue of Exchequer-bills by government, instead of causing such bills to be at a discount, would have a directly contrary effect. It would tend materially to restore confidence, the loss of which had been one of the principal causes of the present distress; and it would tranquillize the minds of numerous individuals, who would not be afraid of parting with their money, when they knew that they could have assistance if they required it.
Mr. Hutchinsonwas desirous that justice should be done to all parties, and particularly to the government, for their conduct in the recent transact ions. Though there might be a difference of opinion as to the merits of many of the measures proposed by government, he thought that there could be no difference of opinion upon this point—that ministers had evinced every anxiety to administer relief to the existing distress. He was of opinion, that from their past conduct the country might be confident that ministers would set their shoulders to the wheel to rescue the country from its present unfortunate situation. He thought, however, that the system of Government was too expensive, and that it was the duty of parliament to make them diminish it.
Sir F. Blakecommended the conduct of government. Their principles of free trade particularly entitled them to the thanks of the country, and he hoped they would not, by any complaints or representations, be induced to depart from them.
Mr. Herriessaid, that one observation had fallen from an hon. friend of his, which he fell it necessary to notice. His hon. friend had stated, that the government had received lightly the representations of distress which had been made to it. Now, he was sure that no solicitations had ever been received with greater attention than those which had recently been made to government; and if the noble lord at the head of the Treasury, and the chancellor of the Exchequer had not complied with the requests made to them, it was not without giving to them a full and patient examination, nor without being convinced that they ought not, for public reasons, to be acceded to. His hon. friend had given it as his opinion, that the large purchase of Exchequer-bills, which had taken place

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that morning; would have produced a greater effect, if it had been a measure of the government, instead of a measure of the Bank. Now, the hon. member ought to have known, from what had fallen from his right hon. friend last night, that the measure was one which the Bank would never have felt itself justified in undertaking, if it had not been for the communication which his right hon. friend had made last night. He trusted, therefore, that his hon. friend would admit that the government had met his views in this respect.
The resolution was agreed to.

POOR LAWS IN IRELAND.
The Earl of Darnleyalluded to a misunderstanding of what he had said a few days ago concerning the extension of the poor laws to Ireland, when a noble earl, not then in his place, had brought the state of that country under their lordships' consideration. What he meant was, that he should be sorry if the system of the poor laws, or rather of the abuses of the poor law system of this country, were transferred to Ireland, since they could produce only calamitous results. On the other hand, he thought it was not to be tolerated that, in a country boasting of civilization, it should be possible for individuals to die from actual want; yet he had read of a person dying in the streets of Dublin from starvation. He did not himself mean to bring the subject before their lordships, because there was a noble lord, not then in his place (lord Carberry), who had already moved for certain papers on the subject, and had pledged himself to bring it before their lordships. But if that noble lord did not, he was so impressed with the importance of the subject, that after the holidays he would call their lordships' attention to it. He knew that there were great difficulties in the way; that the poverty of the people was not to be cured by charity; that the only legitimate mode of relieving them was by finding them employment; but he thought it was worthy of their lordships' attention to consider whether or not some modified system might not be practicable.
The Earl of Limerickrose to express his astonishment that any noble lord should stir a subject fraught with such mischievous consequences as a proposition
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for introducing the poor laws into Ireland. He was surprised, too, to hear the kind of reason which had been suggested for this extraordinary measure. His noble friend had read in an Irish paper an account of one person having died in the streets of Dublin for want; but, in spite of the poor laws of this country, he had also read in the English newspapers of persons dying from starvation in London. He knew what those laws were, for he had a small property in this country, and he would say, that a more mischievous, a more impoverishing, a more demoralizing system, never existed; and this system, these new projectors wished to extend to Ireland. It was like a man who was suffering under a violent disease, and obliged to have recourse to severe remedies, and who should persist in making some other person submit to the same remedies who was in health. One of the ablest writers on political economy, speaking of the mischievous effect of the poor laws in making provision even for the old and debilitated, had said, "It is impossible it can be otherwise, for it is quite evident, that to make such a provision is to hold out a premium to idleness and profligacy." Ireland was now suffering from an overgrown and unemployed population; but, if the English poor laws were to be introduced, and the people given to understand that all the children they produced would be provided for by the public, the increase of the population would be most alarming. The clergy certainly would profit by it, for there would be a general rush to the priest to get married. The noble lord who had suggested this subject was acquained with Ireland; but, if the information of that noble lord on the situation of the country had been as accurate as his own, he never would have started the idea. It had been said by somebody, that Ireland was used to acts of forfeiture; but he could assure their lordships that the introduction of the poor laws would be a general act of forfeiture of all property whatever. Why should the noble lord wish to throw more inflammable materials into the caldron which was now boiling, and might soon boil over?
The Earl of Darnleyexplained, what he meant to state was, that he thought it would be worth their lordships' while to consider whether some modified provision might not be made for the poor of Ireland in certain cases.