Sitting of 1 December 1826

ARIGNA MINING COMPANY.
Mr. Alderman Waithmansaid, that in consequence of what had passed in the House last evening, he was induced to give notice, that on Tuesday next, he would submit a motion, for an inquiry into the formation
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and proceedings of the Arigna Mining Company. He was induced to bring forward the motion thus early, from the desire for a speedy inquiry expressed by an hon. member. At the same time he begged to say, that he did not intend to confine his motion to the conduct of that company; but should extend it to other Joint-stock companies with which that hon. gentleman and other members of that House were connected.
Mr. Brogdensaid, he felt personally obliged at the announcement of an early day for bringing forward a motion, in which his character was so deeply concerned. He felt the same confidence that he had before expressed, as to his coming out of the inquiry with an unsullied reputation. He had seen in a report of the proceedings of the House of last evening, in which it was stated, that it was intimated to the worthy alderman by him, that he wished the subject should not be brought forward, until after the holidays. He now called upon the worthy alderman to do him the justice to say, that he had never concurred in such an understanding.
Mr. Alderman Waithmansaid, that in stating that there had been a wish expressed, that the subject should not be brought forward until after the holidays, he certainly did not allude to the hon. member but to a right hon. gentleman over the way. It was by no means with a view to his own convenience, that he had suggested the postponement. It was to meet the wishes of others: but, perceiving that a disposition to accommodate was sometimes productive of greater inconvenience than the adherence to an original plan, he was determined to exercise his own discretion, and bring the subject before the House on Tuesday.

CURRENCY AND THE CORN-LAWS.
On the order of the day for going into a committee of supply,
Lord Folkestonetook the opportunity, seeing the President of the Board of Control in his place, of asking whether it was the intention of ministers to introduce any measure respecting the Currency, in consequence of what had taken place in the Committee on the Small Note Bill in the last session of the last parliament?
Mr. Huskissonsaid, that he was not at that moment prepared to reply to the question of the noble lord,
Lord Folkestonesaid, he thought the

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present a proper opportunity for remarking upon the extraordinary situation in which parliament was placed, by the conduct of ministers, with respect to the Currency and the Corn-laws. Parliament was assembled at an inconvenient season of the year, and at a time that, it was admitted by all, the greatest distress pervaded every class of the community. Yet they were told by ministers, that no discussion should take place upon the subject, on which the greatest excitation was raised throughout the nation. When the members met together, they were told that no information should be given; that no debate should take place on these points, on which information and debate were most desirable; in short, that the only purpose for which their attendance was rendered requisite, was to pass an act of indemnity to ministers for a measure, which more than any other measure of their administration, had obtained for them the approbation of the country. He saw no ground for this delay. There had been, indeed, a great deal of blustering, that come what may, ministers would abstain from declaring their views; but they were greatly mistaken, if they thought that such a declaration on their part would satisfy the country. Both parties—those who thought that the agriculture of the country ought to receive additional protection, and those who thought that it ought to be deprived of the protection which it already possessed —were equally interested in the determination of the question; and in the meanwhile, therefore, the general agitation was in consequence extreme. He was utterly at a loss to conceive what rational advantage could ensue from the delay in settling so important a matter. To talk of inconvenience was to trifle with the feelings of the whole country; and was more especially absurd, when it was perfectly well known, that on former occasions inconvenience was not deemed a sufficient reason for postponing the consideration of matters of national importance. He perfectly well recollected, that some years ago, when a scarcity was expected, parliament sat during the months of November and December, expressly to make such an alteration in the Corn-laws as might meet the anticipated necessity. When it was thought expedient by his majesty's government to propose certain strong measures, the tendency of which was to violate the liberty of the subject, no similar plea
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of inconvenience was allowed to prevent the meeting of parliament at the present season of the year. He could not conceive why his majesty's ministers had been unable to make up their minds on this vital question before the meeting of parliament. When he had just now put a question to the right hon. gentleman opposite, as to any intention to renew the committee of last session on the state of the Currency, with a view of settling certain points still mooted, the right hon. gentleman was not prepared to answer the question. As it was impossible that his majesty's government could have any measures in contemplation with which that right hon. gentleman was not perfectly acquainted, he did not think that he should be acting unfairly towards the right hon. gentleman's colleagues, if he inferred from the right hon. gentleman's disclaimer, that they had no intention at present of proposing any measure with respect to the two important subjects to which he had alluded. That was a statement, indeed, which he had heard in other quarters. Recollecting as he did how the last session opened; recollecting that in February, only six weeks after the occurrence of what was generally known by the name of "the panic," the country had been described by the right hon. gentleman and by his colleagues, as having been within eight-and-forty hours of returning to a state of barter, a state of utter confusion, entirely incompatible with its welfare and existence, and therefore that it was necessary to call the immediate attention of parliament to the providing of a remedy calculated to prevent the recurrence of such a danger:—recollecting that all the evils which had been endured had been attributed, and most justly attributed, to the deranged state of the currency—recollecting that on that occasion his majesty's ministers lost no time in bringing the question under the consideration of the House in a manner which met with his entire concurrence; recollecting all these things, he owned he was surprised that the plea of inconvenience was now set up, in order to avoid the discussion of a subject allowed on all hands to be one of the most important that could by possibility be brought under the consideration of the legislature: The consequence of the proceedings adopted by his majesty's government at the commencement of the last session was, that a bill was introduced for the purpose of putting

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an end, under certain exceptions and modifications, to the circulation of small notes. That bill, however, experienced material alterations in passing through the House. It being contended, that the principles respecting paper currency applicable to England were not applicable to Scotland and Ireland, and especially to the former, a select committee was appointed to take that part of the subject into consideration. Every body must recollect, that, towards the close of the last session —a session which it was known immediately preceded the dissolution of parliament—an extreme degree of hurry prevailed in all the proceedings of parliament. The Corn question, the Currency question, and a great many other questions of importance were postponed; and the report of the committee to which he had alluded was not brought up, until within a few days of the prorogation, and, together with the evidence, was not printed until several months after the dissolution, of parliament. From that evidence, it would appear, that the real difficulties of the question had not been mooted, or canvassed, in the committee. It had been argued by various gentlemen, and especially by the right hon. gentleman opposite, that, to restore the currency to a satisfactory state would be to restore agriculture to its former easy situation. And yet the House would be surprised to hear, that, in the whole of the proceedings of the committee to which he had adverted, no inquiry was made by the right hon. gentleman, or by any other member of it, as to the effect which had been produced on the agriculture of Scotland by the substitution of a paper for a metallic circulation. With respect to that part of the inquiries of the committee which related to Ireland, it had undergone a most imperfect consideration. The conclusion of the report of the committee stated, "That in the imperfect state of the information which the committee had obtained with respect to Ireland, they were unable to come to any decisive opinion on that part of the question submitted to their investigation." Now, was it fitting that a great national question should be left in this undetermined condition? Was it fitting, when all our distresses had been over and over again attributed to the state of the currency, that the real state of that currency should be left in doubt? The committee asserted, that, their information was so imperfect on the state of the Irish
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currency, that they could not give an opinion; and yet this very question, on which that of the Corn-laws, and so many others of importance, were said to depend, was to be left in this uncertain state. The committee went on to say, "It will probably be deemed advisable to fix a definite, though not an early, period, at which the circulation of Ireland of all notes below 5l. shall cease. And it is deserving of consideration, whether measures might not be adopted in the interim for the purpose of ensuring such a final result by gradual though cautious advances towards it." And yet, notwithstanding this uncertainty, the House was to be left in darkness, as to whether any further measures were to be introduced, and ministers were unprepared to say whether they would take any step on that important subject. He repeated that parliament and the country were most unfairly treated by ministers, by the protraction of those important subjects, and he felt it his duty thus early to enter his protest against the continuance of such delays.
Mr. Huskissonobserved, that the noble lord had discovered more in the answer which he had returned to the noble lord's question, than that answer really implied. The noble lord had asked him, whether it was intended to renew the committee of last session on the Small Notes bill, or to take any steps with regard to the report which had been presented by that committee. His answer was, that he was not prepared to inform the noble lord whether or not it was intended by government to propose either the renewal of the committee, or the adoption of any proceedings founded on their report. From that answer the noble lord chose to infer prematurely that no steps whatever would actually be taken. He again stated, that his majesty's government had not had an opportunity of considering if it was necessary or not to renew the committee in question; and, therefore, he was not prepared to say whether they would do so, or whether they would take any steps on the report already presented. The noble lord expressed his surprise, that when a report had been presented in a former session, on a subject involving questions of the greatest public interest, his majesty's government ten days after the meeting of parliament on a special occasion, and at an unusual period, declined any proceeding on that subject until after the recess.

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The noble lord, who was a great friend to the liberties of the people, and a great stickler for the constitution, could not see for what purpose parliament was assembled, if not to dispose of the currency and corn questions. It was assembled in deference to the constitution: it was assembled because his majesty's ministers had advised a breach of the law on a subject of great and peculiar importance. His majesty's ministers conceived, that having violated the laws, they were bound to call parliament together to sit in judgment on their acts, and either to indemnify them for what they had done, or put an end to the continuance of the violation. His majesty's ministers conceived that on the very same day on which they advised a violation of the constitution, they ought also to advise his Majesty to call parliament together as soon as they could conveniently be assembled. It was on that ground, and for that purpose, that parliament had been summoned to meet; and he was sure it was not surprising to the majority of the House, or to the country at large, that it was not proposed to parliament, at the present time of the year, to proceed to the permanent settlement of such great questions as those connected with the corn and the currency. It was never usual to bring on important questions such as those, within a few days of an expected adjournment. The noble lord must be aware, that from the circumstance of this being a new parliament, important questions could not, for some time, be proceeded with to any great length; and it would be extremely unfair and injurious to the country, to bring forward any important measure which could not be pursued to its termination. The noble lord said, that all this was a pretence; and that his majesty's ministers had not made up their minds with respect to the plan which they intended to propose regarding the Corn-laws; and that it was because they were not ready, that they did not come forward. He could only say, in answer, that his majesty's ministers were prepared and agreed with respect to what measures they should bring forward, with a view to the permanent settlement of the Corn-laws; but that they thought it would not be conducive to the interests of the country; they thought it would be calculated to occasion a most injurious division of feeling and conflict of opinion, if they brought forward such a subject at a time
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when it was impossible to pursue it to its accomplishment. The noble lord said, that he recollected parliament having been called together at the present period of the year, for the general despatch of business; and among other instances, had specified one in which it was assembled for the purpose of providing means to obviate an apprehended scarcity. But that was quite beside the present question. The present case was simply this—ministers having adopted certain measures which appeared to them to be expedient, although in violation of the law, parliament had been assembled to say whether they had done right or not. A period might be very unfit for the consideration of a permanent alteration in the law, which was extremely fit for the consideration of the propriety of a temporary expedient which had grown out of an urgent occasion. He perfectly admitted to the noble lord, that the question respecting the Corn-laws must be looked at with more or less reference to the question respecting the currency. But what he maintained was, that those two questions —questions of such magnitude—could not be advantageously considered at the present inconvenient season; and that it was much more wise, therefore, to postpone them until the ordinary period. The noble lord had reproached him with not having in the committee on small notes directed any inquiries, to ascertain how far the comforts of the agricultural labourers in Scotland had been affected by the introduction of one-pound notes. The fact was, however, that so remote was the period at which those notes had been introduced into the Scotch circulation, that nothing could now be known of the effect which had been produced by them; and therefore that he should have been laughed at if he had put any such questions as the noble lord had suggested. He was satisfied that neither by the House nor by the country would his majesty's government be censured for not bringing forward the subjects of the currency or the Corn-laws, at this particular period.
Mr. E. D. Davenportmaintained, that the first subject that ought to be considered, was the best mode of placing the currency on a more stable footing; and that with regard to the price of corn, or of any other commodity, it was useless to discuss it, while one of the principal elements of that price remained unfixed.

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When he reflected on the manner in which the currency had been mismanaged during the last ten years; the fluctuations which had taken place in it; and the way in which, by such means, large classes of the people had been robbed, without knowing how they were robbed; he felt that it was the question which, before all others, ought to receive the grave consideration of parliament; and he pledged himself, after the holidays, to call the attention of the House to it, and to show that it was the fluctuations in the currency, and not the speculations of individuals, that had produced the gigantic evils with which the country had been visited during the last year.
Colonel Torrensexpressed his satisfaction at the postponement of the consideration of the corn question. The appearance of things indicated the probability of a scarcity; and, if so, by the spring, the evil of protracting the existence of the present laws on the subject would be too manifest to be denied by any one.
Mr. Benettobjected to the postponement, and observed, that ministers were bound to state to the House the course which they intended to propose on the corn question. As long as this was unknown, the country would be kept in a state of suspense, highly injurious to all parties. No man was safe in entering into any transaction connected with the purchase or sale of land, while he was ignorant of what might be the future proceeding on that question. He therefore regretted the delay, and for the very same reasons on which the gallant colonel had founded the expression of a contrary sentiment. It was said, that every day would show more and more the impolicy of those laws. He expected that various meetings would be held in different parts of the country, some to obtain their repeal and others to obtain protection for the landed interest. At those meetings he anticipated that violent and intemperate language would be used by both parties, and more particularly by that party which sought to alter the present system. That this would be the natural effect of postponing the discussion, no man of any reflection would venture to deny. Various meetings had been held at different places; and he must particularly mention the one held in the Common-hall of London, in which the landlords had been branded with the name of monopolists, and other
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absurd titles, but though they had been exposed to this species of abuse, no retaliation had been exercised by the landlords. The language used by the meeting at Manchester was scarcely less violent; and the only place which had discussed the question with temperance and moderation was Leeds, where several gentlemen had argued it with a degree of talent and information which would not have disgraced the best speakers in that House. For himself, he could only say, that however closely he might be connected with the landed interest, he had always acted upon a thorough conviction, that the interests of commerce, manufactures, and agriculture, were intimately combined.
The House then went into the committee.

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE INFORMATIONS.
Mr. D. W. Harveysaid, that the two motions which he intended to bring forward that evening, were so connected with each other, that he would take the opportunity of making at once all the remarks with which he deemed it necessary to introduce them. One of the motions was only the revival of a motion, which he had himself introduced in 1820, and which he had intended to have followed up by another motion, had not his right to sit in parliament been cut away by a decision which convinced him that the conclusions drawn by election committees were not always infallible. Since the year 1820, no notice had been taken of the subject to which he had called the attention of the House, though it was one of great importance, and referred to abuses, which were deeply rooted in the system of the law as at present administered, and which operated injuriously on the individuals who were made the victims of them. There could not be found a more decided proof of the advantages arising out of the interference of parliament, than that afforded by the results of his motion. It appeared that from the year 1816 down to the year 1819, both inclusive, being a period of four years, previous to any notice being taken of the number of prosecutions instituted under the customs and excise laws, the average number of informations filed each year was 700; whilst during the year in which attention was called to the subject, and during the year immediately following, the average number did not exceed 250. From such a statement of facts, he in-

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ferred that, so long as the solicitors, who enjoyed the exclusive power of wielding this destructive weapon, should enjoy it without limitation, so long as all parties liable to the excise laws were placed under their particular jurisdiction, they would not hesitate to seek their own aggrandizement, under the mask of advancing and protecting the revenue. It was a fact well deserving the attention of the House, that no sooner had its vigilance been directed to the subject, than the average number of annual informations was reduced from 700 to 250—a reduction by which every victim rescued from the grasp of the excise laws was saved an expense of 150 l. and the Crown an expense of 300 l. or 400 l. upon each prosecution. The reason which induced him to revive his former inquiry, was a wish to see how far the power of filing informations under the customs and excise laws had been exercised since the year 1820. It was not for him to draw hasty conclusions from statements which were not before the House, but which, he believed, could be substantiated; but he should be much surprised, if it were not found, that a recurrence of the old abuses took place as soon as the vigilance of parliament ceased to be directed against them.—The other motion which he had to submit to the House, was for a return of the number of causes set down for trial and disposed of in the courts of King's-bench, Common Picas, and Exchequer, during the last seven years, and was therefore intimately connected with the proceedings in the courts of law. Those three courts possessed equal jurisdiction in most things, though in some the court of Exchequer possessed an exclusive jurisdiction. Though they were all filled by the same number of judges, and though each of them, with the exception of the chiefs, received the same stipend, still, when the business which they respectively transacted was compared, it was impossible to come to any other conclusion than this—that the courts of King's-bench and of Common Pleas were overburthened with business, to the great injury of the suitors in them, and that the court of Exchequer was little better than a receptacle for legal sinecurists. Whilst from seventy to one hundred causes were daily entered for trial in the courts of King's-bench and of Common Pleas, there were seldom more than six entered in the court of Exchequer. His object was to show, that where the
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courts possessed equal jurisdiction, and where the judges were taken from the same bar, and distinguished for nearly the same degree of talent, there must be some inherent defects in the court of Exchequer, which clogged the court in its proceedings, and prevented the subject from approaching it for redress. The advantages which would arise from enabling the suitor to approach it with the same facility that he approached the other courts, were palpable; for it would diminish the labour of two of them by adding to the labour of the third. There was also in his motion, an allusion to the equitable jurisdiction possessed by the court of Exchequer. Considering all that the House had recently heard on the proceedings in the court of Chancery, he thought it would be advantageous to know something of the number of causes decided on the equity side of the court of Exchequer. The House would then know why a court scarcely inferior in jurisdiction to the high court of Chancery should have its files scarcely touched, whilst the court of Chancery had its files overburthened by the bills which were filed in it. If, therefore, the equity side of the court of Exchequer could be made auxiliary to the court of Chancery, an avenue would be opened, by which the discontent generated by the expensive delays of the latter court might gradually disappear. He did not now mean to say what degree of equitable jurisdiction should be extended to the court of Exchequer; but he thought that, as the court of Exchequer generally rose after a sitting of half an hour, some business might be given to it, which would diminish not only the labour, but the odium at present attached to the court of Chancery. Having made these observations, he would move," That there be laid before the House, a Return of the total number of Informations filed in the court of Exchequer, for penalties under the Customs and Excise laws, from the year 1820 to the end of Michaelmas term, 1826; with separate statements of the amount of penalties sought to be recovered, and the actual amount eventually received; distinguishing whether the same was paid before or after verdict, and whether the same was the full verdict recovered, or the result of compromise; together with the amount of the costs incurred in each prosecution, and what proportion thereof was paid by the Crown and the defendant."
Mr. Humeseconded the motion. He

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said, that last year a similar motion had been made by him, in order to obtain information upon this subject. His object had been to show the grievous hardships under which persons laboured, who were exposed to the operations of the Customs and Excise laws. At present it was in the power of any individual to institute a suit, or information, against whomsoever he pleased for a breach of the Revenue-laws; and, however triumphantly that suit might end for the accused, he was obliged to pay all the expenses of the process. He had known an instance of a suit instituted against an individual, upon the oath of an excise officer, and which had been scouted out of court. This individual, however, found himself liable to all the heavy expenses attending the suit. Persons who were decidedly innocent, should be placed on equal advantage with the Crown; which ought to pay all the expenses if the party it accused was acquitted. He had known persons involved in ruin by Exchequer prosecutions, although the court had pronounced them thoroughly innocent.
Mr. Lockhartthought, that if the judge who tried the information, were to certify that there was no cause for filing it, the Crown should pay the defendant his costs. If such certificates were given by the judges, they would bring before the notice of the public the conduct of those who had the power of filing the informations. The reason why so little business was transacted in the court of Exchequer was, that an attorney could not practise there in his own name, but was obliged to practise in the name of one of the side clerks. He received, therefore, only half fees; and that was the reason why he went in preference to the court, of King's-bench, where he received whole fees. He thought it would be of great advantage to the public to get rid of these side clerks altogether. He supposed they had a vested interest in their situations, and that therefore the House must indemnify them for the loss they would sustain by the abolition of their offices. When they were got rid of, the court might be thrown open, and so be made to relieve the other courts from the pressure now thrown upon them. He was anxious that some attention should be paid to the internal arrangements of this court.; for some years ago, several mal-practices were detected among its officers, and that he had himself brought forward a motion on the subject. It was
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found that they took the declarations and the pleas on trust; and that when they were so taken on trust, they were never delivered at all, though they were regularly charged to the unfortunate suitor. By such a proceeding, not only were the suitors injured, but the revenue defrauded of the stamp duties.
Mr. Spencesaid, that the hon. member's motion called only for a return of the number of causes set down for trial, which was not in itself sufficient. The House ought to be informed how long the court was occupied in hearing interlocutory motions. He thought, therefore, that a more extensive motion was necessary. He could assure the House that the judges of the court of Exchequer were anxious that that court should be made an efficient court, and that they would willingly lend their assistance to any measure which would prevent it from being branded as a receptacle for sinecurists, by giving it an active and extensive jurisdiction.
The two motions were then agreed to.