Sitting of 19 April 1826

ITINERANT PARLIAMENTS.
Mr. C. Pelham Mr. C. Pelham moved his resolution for occasionally holding the parliament in the capitals of the kingdom other than in London. The hon. member prefaced his motion with a few words, which were inaudible in the gallery. The first resolution set forth, that the High Court of Parliament and the Supreme Judicature of the kingdom, ought, from the great increase of the population, and the additional activity which pervaded all classes throughout the country, to be held, from time to time, in the different capitals of the kingdom, instead of being confined to London.
The motion was not seconded, and fell consequently to the ground.

RESOLUTIONS RELATIVE TO PRIVATE BILL COMMITTEES.
Mr. Littletonsaid, that, in laying before the House the resolutions he was about to propose, he might take it for granted, that, as they had been printed, their details were already known to honourable members. In preparing those resolutions, and in moving the appointment of a committee to investigate this subject last year, nothing was further from his thoughts than the hope of devising an effectual and decided remedy for all the evils which were complained of as being connected with the present system of getting private bills through that House. He deemed it, however, necessary, for the benefit of the public at large, that some alteration should be made in the constitution of
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committees on private bills. He knew that the complaints which were made against the proceedings of committees out of doors, could not be effectually cured by any regulation of those committees, or even by the interference of the House itself; indeed he believed that the members of that House, in many cases, had most reason to complain of the course taken with reference to private bills. They were all aware that the conduct of conflicting parties, out of doors, was such as imposed great labour and inflicted no little pain on those who were obliged to attend private committees. In the most trifling cases, even when the most trifling road-bill was in progress, the litigating parties took every means that came in their reach to create delay and increase the expenditure. This, however profitable it might be to some persons, became a subject of remonstrance and complaint amongst the parties in the country, and the whole blame was immediately attributed to the forms of the House, or to the constitution of its committees. But, where a bill was of extensive importance—where it held out some prospective advantage to the immediate interests of one party, while it threatened to affect unfavourably the interests of another—they well knew how acrimonious the opposition became. Efforts of every description were resorted to, for the purpose of effecting the particular object of each of these conflicting bodies. In such a state of things, it could not be expected that either party would be reconciled, at the time, to the decision of the House; and though they were themselves to blame, they threw all their complaints on parliament. The parties by their litigious conduct, harassed and wearied the members of the House; and the proceedings they frequently adopted to carry their point were alike destructive of the ends of public and private justice. He did not know of any course by which all those evils could be removed; but if any of them could be fairly traced to the constitution of the committees, or to the conduct of individual members, the House had a right to apply a remedy. They knew that cases had occurred in committees which had been brought down stairs; and complaint made of them to the House, where members were found to have conducted themselves in a way which showed that they were regardless of their own honour, and of the interests of the public. He did not feel it neces-

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sary to particularise those cases. He thought it necessary to abstain from doing so, though he certainly could name them; but, if gentlemen were disposed to deny the facts he stated, at least they must allow, that, constituted as the committees were at present, it was possible that misconduct might arise; and his resolutions would meet that defect. Several remedies had been proposed to remove the existing evils. One was—if it could be called a remedy—to leave things just as they were at present, and to make every impropriety committed up stairs a subject of complaint to the House. He thought it only necessary to mention, that this was the system that had been acted on for years, and to ask, was it fit that it should be continued? Another plan was, to have, at the commencement of each session, a universal system of select committees, to be nominated by ballot, to which private bills should be referred. But, when they looked to the important occupations of the House, some members charged with the consideration of affairs deeply affecting the national interest.— others employed on professional and commercial subjects—the time of the county members taken up with an extensive and laborious correspondence—many gentlemen absent from age or sickness, and the occasional absence, upon urgent business, of all—when they considered this, he did not think the proposition could be carried into effect. There was another plan, more easy of adoption, but certainly less constitutional in its nature. That was, to refer every bill which seemed likely to be contested, to a commission of inquiry. He, however, would oppose this departure from the old established custom. He therefore thought the safer and more preferable course would be, to adhere, as far as possible, to the system established at present, providing that, where any case of decided abuse in a committee up stairs was fairly made out, the parties complaining should be entitled to apply for a select committee, to be appointed by ballot, who should proceed with the consideration of the bill. This would prevent parties from having any ground or reason to complain that justice had not been rendered to them. Thus, though individuals who sat on the original committee on a bill, might, from local causes, be supposed to have some interest in the measure, no such undue bias could exist where a select committee was appointed
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by ballot. By this plan, one just cause of complaint would be removed. But, what was a still greater advantage, it would operate to prevent, in numberless instances, the necessity of having resort to a select committee. For how was it possible, when the members of a committee knew if they acted improperly, that their conduct would be brought before the House, and their decision would perhaps be reversed by a select committee, that they could act otherwise than correctly? Was it to be supposed, under such circumstances, that they would resort to artifice or unfair dealing, for the purpose of serving their own interests, or giving an undue preference to their own constituents? If this regulation were found to be efficient, it might be continued; but, if it proved otherwise, it could be modified or abandoned altogether. It appeared desirable to him that an alteration should be made in the present distribution of counties for the formation of committees on private bills. He did not know on what ground that distribution was framed, but he thought the inequality of the numbers of members in each list was too great. Thus, on private bills, for the county of Wilts, 194 might attend; for Somersetshire, 176; for Derbyshire, 80; for Leicestershire, 69; for Hampshire, 234; for Staffordshire, 66; and so on. He did not know the reason of this variation, but it produced most mischievous effects. He thought, therefore, that the resolution which he was about to propose, and which would secure a proper and efficient attendance for each county, would work a great deal of good. If these resolutions were carried, they must be considered only in the light of trial and experiment, and not as intending to interfere in any degree with the foundation of the present established system. By agreeing to them, the House would remove much that was complained of out of doors; and as much, he thought, as their own honour required, or the interest of the people demanded. The hon. gentleman then moved his first resolution,
"That the present distribution of counties, for the purpose of forming committees on private bills, prepared under the direction of the Speaker some years ago, has, from the great inequality of the numbers of members contained in each list, and from other causes, been found not to answer the object for which it was formed."
Mr. S. Wkitbreadseconded the motion.
Mr. R. Colborneobserved, that, if any malpractices occurred in a private-bill committee, under the present system, it was competent to any member to complain to the House, and to have the evil redressed. The hon. mover seemed to think that his plan would make members more scrupulous in the discharge of their duties on private committees than they were at present. But public opinion was the great corrective in cases of that kind, as well as in those of every other description where public men were employed. He knew very well that litigious men might defeat a measure up stairs, by delaying time, and increasing expense. But it was difficult to say by what possible means that could be prevented. His impression was, that individuals would feel very unwilling to encounter the expense attendant on an appeal to a select committee. He believed the House would find it impossible to apply any remedy to the evil, except by the adoption of a summary process.
Mr. W. Peelhoped the resolutions of the hon. gentleman would be agreed to. The unjust and disgraceful manner in which the private business of the House was carried on, rendered any change desirable. Any gentleman who entered a committee room must feel disgusted at the conduct of parties engaged in private bills. There was nothing like a fair and just consideration of the subject. He had seen every art exerted to defeat a bill, and every stratagem adopted to procure a vexatious and ruinous delay. If these resolutions were carried, it would put an end to this system, and with it, to those innumerable letters of invitation which gentlemen found on their tables every morning, soliciting them to come down and support bills without having heard one word of the evidence on which they were founded.
Mr. S. Whitbreadgave his cordial assent to the resolutions. The great evil of the system, and that of which he must loudly complain, was the power which it gave to every member to come down to the House and vote on a bill without Laving heard or read a particle of the evidence relative to it. The only objection against the resolution was, that members could not find time to perform the duties which they imposed; but he had always understood, that members were sent to that House to give their time and attention to the discharge of
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duties which they had voluntarily undertaken to perform.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he had not had much experience in private business up stairs: but, from all he had ever heard on the subject, he was led to believe that there was something in the manner in which it was carried on not at all creditable to the House, or beneficial to the interests of the community. With regard to the hon. member's resolutions, it was difficult to say beforehand, how far the whole of them or any part of them, might be calculated, satisfactorily, to meet the evil which had been pointed out. That could only be ascertained by experience; and, after all they had heard on this question—after being informed of the manifest grievances which arose out of those committees as they were at present constituted—they were called upon to do the best they could for the improvement of the system. If the resolutions failed, or if there were any insurmountable difficulty in the application of them, it would be competent to parliament to alter or rescind them. But it would be very much to be lamented, if, on account of any apprehended difficulty, they were to let the matter lie over, as they had done last year, without making any attempt to ameliorate the system. He therefore should support the resolutions.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, that, although he disapproved of the resolutions, he did not know, as yet, whether he should take the sense of the House upon them. He conceived that what the chancellor of the Exchequer had just said, was a very strong reflection on the conduct of persons whose proceedings it appeared from his own statement he had not witnessed. A great complaint was made, that members voted without hearing the evidence. Now, in that House individuals frequently decided on a subject without hearing the argument; and in the committees up stairs, gentlemen acted upon confidence, just as they did below. He knew not, for his own part, how any resolution of the House could alter this. The object of the present resolution was that the Speaker should alter the mode of composing committees, because it was found that for some counties there were fewer, and for others a greater, number of members to be called upon to serve on committees. As well might the hon. member who, he presumed from this, was a reformer, come to the House and pray an alteration in the elec-

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tion for different boroughs or towns, because in some there were three electors, in others twenty, and in others three thousand. But there was another objection to the measure. It was anticipating misconduct on the part of the next House of Commons. It was, in fact, making regulations for those who were not yet born. This might, in fact, be considered the last legacy of the present parliament to its successor. The hon. gentleman having seen exceptionable conduct in this parliament, anticipated similar conduct in the parliament that was to come, Now, he was not prepared to pronounce judgment on the ensuing parliament. It was, he conceived, rather premature to do so. The hon. member here adverted to the second resolution, for the better regulation of private committees, and asked, if the hon. mover seriously expected that the members for Cornwall would attend to the private business of Yorkshire, or if the members for Ireland and Scotland would attend to English private business? If he thought so, he was mistaken. They would come down and vote; he would warrant they would do that; but as to a regular attendance, it was out of the question. Next to the hon. mover came the hon. member for Tamworth, who thought this plan would relieve members from pressing letters and teasing cards, calling upon them to vote upon this or that side in committee, on a private bill. But what could prevent these letters from being sent as usual? And, if they were sent, what hon. member was likely to be influenced by them? A member would go down to the House and do his duty, uninfluenced by such applications, even though made by the most beautiful woman in London. A good deal had been said about the delay which frequently occurred in private committees. Now, much of that delay might be attributed to the counsel, who were sometimes called upon to attend twenty committees. He did not mean to say any thing personal of any professional man, but it was sometimes necessary to get up a debate in private committees, until the counsel arrived; otherwise the junior counsel took up the case, or the committee was adjourned. Such was the Utopian system of the hon. member. This select committee, it appeared, was to have the power to award costs. Now, he demanded whether the House had ever before assumed that power? That there were, at times, irregularities in those com-
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mittees he would admit; but not to such an extent as to prevent justice from being done by the House in those cases. He never knew a case, which was properly and clearly made out, where the House did not speedily set the matter right. It was futile to tell him that they could not place the same confidence in the justice of the committees up stairs as they might place in the justice of the House itself. He could not assent to this Utopian doctrine. One case he had himself complained of; and the hon. gentleman, who was now the great reformer, was in that instance the principal performer. But the House soon set that case to rights; and he was quite certain that any man or woman might obtain justice at their hands with equal ease.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the present resolutions did not go precisely and directly to any one of the causes of complaint. He was afraid that the right of appeal to a select committee would not produce the benefit to the public which the hon. member anticipated, while the new system must inevitably throw a great deal of additional labour on the members of that House.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, he felt one great objection to the plan now proposed, which had not yet been noticed. That objection struck him so forcibly, that he hoped the sense of the House would be taken on the resolution. It was impossible to carry into effect the resolutions, without increasing the trouble and labour of the members of that House. He, however, had never shrunk from any parliamentary labour that was imposed on him. He had taken the burthen on himself; and, therefore, he had no right to complain. But let it be recollected, that in the next parliament, not merely a great part, but the whole of the members of that House would probably be occupied on election committees; and let gentlemen calmly consider, what an immense load of additional labour would be thrown on the members and the officers of the House, if they were called on, under these resolutions, to ballot for select committees to consider private bills. For this reason, he would oppose the motion.

The resolution was agreed to. The Speaker then read the second resolution, in the following terms:—
"That, with a view more nearly to equalize numbers, and to correct too strong a prevalence of local interests on

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committees on private bills, it is expedient that a new distribution of counties should be made, containing in each list, as nearly as may be, one hundred and twenty members; one half only, or thereabouts, to be taken from the county immediately connected with the object of the bill and the adjoining counties, and the other half from other more distant counties of Great Britain and Ireland; and that the members serving for such counties, and the places within such counties, should constitute the committee on each bill."
It was agreed to, and the following were also read and carried.
"That Mr. Speaker be requested to direct a new distribution of counties to be prepared at the commencement of each session, in such manner as shall be approved of by him, conformably to the principle of the fore going resolution."
"That every committee on a private bill be required to report to the House the, bill referred to it, with the evidence and minutes of the proceedings."
"That a committee be appointed at the commencement of every session of parliament, to be called 'the Committee of Appeals upon Private Bills;' which committee shall consist of all the knights of the shire, all the members for cities, and such other members as may be named therein; so that the whole number appointed to serve upon such committee shall amount to two hundred at least."
"That where any party interested in a private bill, who shall have petitioned the House, and shall have appeared in support of his petition, by himself, his counsel or agent, in the committee upon such bill; or, where the promoters of a private bill shall be dissatisfied with any vote of the committee upon such bill, and shall petition the House, setting forth the particular vote or votes objected to, and praying that they may be heard by themselves, their counsel or agent, against such vote or votes; such petition shall, together with the report of the committee upon the bill, and the minutes and evidence taken before such committees, be referred to a select committee of seven members of the House, to be chosen by ballot from the committee of appeals upon private bills; which select committee shall hear the arguments of the parties complaining of, and also of the parties supporting, such vote or votes, and shall report their opinion thereon to the House."
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The Speaker then read the next resolution; viz.
"That whenever a petition shall be presented, complaining of any vote of a committee upon a private bill, the House will fix a day whereon to ballot for a select committee, to whom such petition shall be referred, upon which day, at a quarter past four o'clock, or as near thereto as the question which may be then before the House will permit, the Speaker shall order the doors of the House to be locked, and the names of the members composing the committee of appeals upon private bills being written upon separate pieces of paper, and put into the glass, the clerk shall draw there from the names, until seven members of such committee, who shall be then present, and who shall not have voted in the committee upon the private bill to which the petition refers, shall have answered to their names; which seven members shall be the select committee to whom such petition shall be referred, and such select committee shall meet for business the following day at eleven o'clock, and continue to sit de die in diem, until they shall have reported upon the same."
Mr. Bankesobserved, that it would be impossible, in his opinion, to carry this complicated system into useful operation. The experiment might indeed be tried for a single session, but the duty imposed upon members was already sufficiently onerous. The effect of the resolutions would be, to increase litigation before the House and its committees; and this litigation would, of course, be attended with much additional expense to the parties concerned in private bills. He had no notion, that, after the trial of a single session, the project would be persevered in.
Mr. S. Wortleysaid, that if, after a fair trial, the experiment did not answer, the machinery might be altered. All members would be liable to serve on the committees of appeal, and no exemption would be allowed. He did not think that at any time more than two days would be occupied by the additional investigation.
Lord Miltoncontended, that it was impossible for the hon. member, with any certainty, to predict that the additional investigation before a committee of appeal would only occupy two days, when it was intended to admit counsel, who would exert all their ingenuity to spin out trifling questions to a most expensive and tedious

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length. He very much doubted the expediency of any part of the new and complicated system. Much had been said on this and other occasions, against the proceedings of private committees; but he did not feel the same distrust of their impartiality. Objections might be made, and sometimes, no doubt, misconduct might be detected, but, upon the whole, he was satisfied that substantial justice was done before these tribunals.
The resolution was again read from the chair.
Mr. Calcraftagain expressed his decided objection to all these needless and inconvenient forms, which would give rise to endless disputes and endless business. Already the severity of the calls upon the time of members was so great, that none but those of strong constitutions could endure it. If these ballots with locked doors, and all the other forms, were to take place before public business commenced, it would postpone it indefinitely. It was already a serious evil that discussions of important questions were deferred until so late an hour, that the House were weary before the principal topic of the night could be introduced. Ministers themselves were often unable to bring on debates until a most inconvenient hour. Under these circumstances, he should take the sense of the House upon the last resolution read from the chair.
Sir T. Aclandadmitted, that the only real use he expected from the appointment of the committee of appeal was, that members would be deterred from a course hitherto sometimes pursued by them, by the knowledge that there was a tribunal before which their conduct in private committees might be investigated. Upon that conduct he would not now dilate, as it had already been sufficiently described and censured.
Lord A. Hamiltonobjected strongly to the erection of any tribunal to arraign the conduct of members, where they might, as it were, be put upon their trial, and counsel employed against them, without the possibility of adequately meeting the charge. He was of opinion, that if the resolutions were carried, they would accomplish nothing by way of remedy for the existing evils.
Mr. S. Wortleysaid, that the case had not been fairly stated. The committee would not be called on to decide upon the conduct of any member. All that, they would have to do would be, to decide
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upon questions of law and fact, much in the same manner as the committee on standing orders.
The House then divided: For the motion 42. Against it 34. Majority 8. The remaining resolutions were then agreed to, viz.
"That no member of such select committee shall absent himself therefrom during its sitting."
"That such select committee shall, if they think fit, after the hearing of such argument, order the party or parties complaining, to pay the whole or any part of the costs attending the same: and that only one counsel or agent shall be heard in support of the petition of any one party." Resolution, as amended, agreed to.
"That the party or parties complaining shall, previously to the balloting for such select committee, enter into recognizances, he, she, or they, in the sum of 300 l., and two sureties in the sum of 150 l. each, for the payment of such costs as may be awarded against him, her, or them."

NATIONAL GALLERY.
Mr. Herries brought up a copy of the Treasury Minute for the purchase of the three pictures which had lately been added to the National Gallery.
Sir C. Longsaid, that being one of those at whose suggestion those pictures had been purchased, he thought that the public had a right to be satisfied with respect to the transaction. He confessed that he knew of no other way in which purchases for the National Gallery could be so satisfactorily effected as by the recommendation of a committee of competent persons. It was under such au arrangement that those pictures had been purchased, and it was the intention of government that no purchases should in future be made without a similar recommendation. He thought that, when the House looked at the names of those by whom the purchase had been recommended, they would find that they had every security they could desire. Those names included the earl of Aberdeen, sir George Beaumont, and sir Thomas Lawrence. When he mentioned sir George Beaumont, he could not help observing, that at the very time he was advising this purchase, he was presenting his own collection [hear, hear!]. With regard to the share which he himself had had in

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the formation of the National Gallery, he had found it rather an ungracious office. He was continually receiving letters, offering collections, and sometimes single pictures for sale, and inviting him to call upon the possessors, and give his opinion as to their worth. In some instances, he had, unguardedly, been induced to make the visit. What was the result? If he declared his opinion that the picture was a copy, or not the work of a master, he gave offence, and sometimes made the party his mortal enemy. The hon. member for Montrose, among others, had written to him to go and see the collection of a friend of his; but having made up his mind at that time not to visit private collections for the future, he had declined the offer; but in doing so, he hoped that no want of courtesy had been shown to the hon. gentleman. His only motive in declining the offer was, that he did not wish any longer to take upon himself the very thankless office of passing judgment on pictures in the possession of private individuals. It was at best an ungracious task to be obliged to pass an opinion on works of taste in the presence of their owners. If that opinion happened not to agree with the notions which the proprietors might entertain as to their excellence, nothing was more easy than to throw out insinuations of an injurious tendency, and to complain of a want of taste and judgment; and if, on the other hand, the opinion should be favourable, the owners were too apt to go into the market, and quote that opinion, whatever weight it might possess, for the purpose of raising, perhaps, a disproportionate price. The right hon. gentleman then proceeded to state, that so little inclination had been shown by government to add to the national collection by indiscriminate purchases, that since the gallery had first been formed, only four pictures, including these three, had been purchased. It was unnecessary for him to state, that those pictures were of the first class; as the concurrent testimony of artists and men of taste had fully admitted. He hoped the chancellor of the Exchequer would continue to proceed slowly and cautiously in the purchase of other pictures; and that none would be added to the collection but those of the highest order of merit. It had been suggested that government should purchase different collections of pictures; but he thought it would not be wise to do so, as
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it was well known that although those collections might contain some admirable pictures, the majority might be inferior; and he repeated, that none but first-rate works should have a place in the national collection.
Mr. Bankesagreed with the right hon. baronet, as to the propriety of purchasing separate pictures, and not whole collections. The three last purchased he considered works of great merit, and believed that one of them was worth nearly the whole sum paid for the three.
Mr. R. Colborneexpressed his approbation of the purchases already made. They were the first specimens of the first-rate artists. There could not be a better foundation for a national gallery of paintings than those bought of the late Mr. Angerstein. To these were to be added the magnificent collection of sir G. Beaumont.
Mr. Humewished that, in the purchase of pictures for the national gallery, the names of those on whose recommendation they were selected, might be made known to the public; because the names of the selectors would be a pledge of the genuineness and excellence of the pictures. He highly approved of the beginning already made for the formation of a national gallery. By the selection of works like the pictures of Mr. Angerstein and those of sir G. Beaumont, we should soon have a most magnificent collection of the finest works of art.