Sitting of 28 March 1825

CORN LAWS.
Mr. Curwenpresented a petition from the merchants and dealers in corn, in the city of London, praying for a revision of the Corn Laws. He was no advocate for monopoly; but as he foresaw that the greatest inconveniences would arise from any unexpected opening of the ports, he concurred in the views of these petitioners, who urged the necessity of revising the corn laws, and prayed that the interests of the agriculturists in this country, might be secured, not by a high, but by a protecting duty of from 56 s. to 60 s. a quarter. They prayed, at the same time, that a moderate duty might be imposed on the importation of foreign corn, and suggested 20 s. on wheat, 10 s. on barley, and 8s. on oats. They were of opinion, however, that the corn now bonded ought to be let into the market free of duty. He trusted that the right hon. gentleman would direct his attention to this important subject.
Mr. Ellicesaid, that the two, propositions of these petitioners seemed to be, that a duty of 20 s. should be imposed on foreign wheat, and that their own corn, which was now in bond, should be admitted duty free. In neither of these propositions could he concur.
Mr. Curwensaid, the hon. gentleman had no right to assume that these petitioners had any corn in bond.
Mr. Huskissondeprecated any discussion of a subject of such feverish interest on the occasion of presenting a petition. He was glad to hear that the hon. member for Cumberland, who was on the committee in 1821, and who was then one of the staunchest advocates of monopoly, had now somewhat relaxed in his opinions; and he hoped he would, during the recess, impress his present more enlightened views of the subject on that class of the community with which he was connected.
Mr. Curteisexpressed his regret that this question had been mooted thus irre-
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gularly. He deprecated all these attacks upon the agricultural interests. It was hard that, having at length been suffered to breathe, they should not be left quiet for one instant.
Mr. T. Wilsonsaid, that this was a great national question. The price of food was so mixed up with the other parts of the right hon. gentleman's new plans for the regulation of the trade of the country, the principle of which he approved of with some modifications, that he did not see how the question of corn could be left untouched.
Mr. Baringdeprecated premature discussion upon a matter of so much importance. He was nevertheless decidedly of opinion, that the question of the corn laws ought to be set at rest. Better have any system—even a deficient one—permanently established, than a system exposed to eternal changes. He was no admirer of the corn laws, and had strenuously opposed them, but yet he thought that the question should be set at rest, and that the present system should be either confirmed or modified. The right hon. gentleman had recommended a postponement of discussion until the hon. member (Mr. Whit-more) brought forward his motion; but he regretted that that hon. member had put a notice on the subject upon the paper.
Sir T. Lethbridgewished to know, whether the hon. member who had given that notice counted upon the support of his majesty's ministers?
Mr. Huskissoncould have no difficulty in saying, that the hon. member had used his own discretion, without having any communication or understanding with any member of his majesty's government. He had been charged with preferring to take the discussion of so important a question upon a motion, rather than a petition. To that opinion he still adhered. With respect to the time when the discussion was to be brought forward, he of course could not control any member; but, when the occasion presented itself, he should be ready to state his sentiments upon the measure.
Ordered to lie on the table.

ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS—CATHOLIC CLERGY—ELECTIVE FRANCHISE.
Mr. Spring Ricerose, to present' a petition from a great number of highly respectable Protestants in Ireland, possessing among them landed property to

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the amount of at least 200,000 l a-year. These petitioners were chiefly individuals who had hitherto been amongst the most steady opposers of the Catholic claims. The result, however, of their further experience and observation upon the subject was, that they now came forward, declared their satisfaction that parliament had taken the disqualifications of the Roman Catholics of Ireland into consideration, and expressed their hope, that those disqualifications, which they were now convinced were most prejudicial to the peace and prosperity of Ireland, would be removed. In addition to this general declaration on the part of the petitioners, a further duty had been imposed upon him by some of the subscribers to the petition, who, while they were prepared to express their hearty concurrence in the expedience of the bill which had been already introduced into the House, instructed him to say, that the success of that bill would afford them greater satisfaction, if it were accompanied by two other measures; namely, a measure affecting the qualifications of forty-shilling freeholders in Ireland, and a measure to secure a provision for the Catholic clergy in Ireland. In these points he most heartily concurred with them; and, should such measures be introduced into that House, they should have all the support which he could possibly give them. He could not help flattering himself with the belief, that the circumstances of the present time were much more favourable to the success of the great question of Catholic emancipation, than they had ever been at any former period. The Catholic Association having been put an end to by parliament, an act of grace, such as the concession of the claims, would be received with feelings of peculiar satisfaction by the Catholics themselves. Many of the Catholic leaders had also been in this country; and a number of those who had hitherto been staunch opponents of the Catholic question had had an opportunity of conversing with them, and of weighing and examining their opinions and principles; and he was persuaded that he spoke but the truth when he said, that this intercourse had made a favourable impression on those who had been most hostile to the Catholic claims. The examination of the Catholic gentlemen in the committees, had likewise had a considerable effect in removing prejudice and inspiring confidence. One word more.
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If he could believe that what was called raising the qualification of the present forty-shilling freeholders could have the effect of checking the popular feeling of the country, or of diminishing the strength of popular principles among the peasantry and the small land-owners of Ireland, it should not have his concurrence. But it was because he knew (he did not say he believed, but knew) that it would be a most wise, salutary, and popular reform of the constituent body in Ireland, that he was determined to support it. Its tendency would be, to increase the control over the representative body, and to render that body more amenable to public opinion. This very measure, which those who were deficient in local knowledge maintained would trench upon popular right, he was convinced would materially strengthen it, excite dormant energies, and effect a most just, wise, and salutary improvement in the character of the constituent body without the doors of that House, and of the representative body within them.
Mr. Littletonexpressed the satisfaction which he felt at the sentiments which had just fallen from the hon. gentleman, and took the present opportunity of giving notice that, as soon as the bill, which was already in the House, should have passed (for he had no doubt it would pass) the second reading, he would propose a measure for the regulation of the elective franchise in Ireland. Whether he should propose that measure in the shape of a separate bill, or of a clause in the bill now in progress through the House, was a question which he was not yet prepared to answer. But, in neither case would he make any proposition, the effect of which would be to trench on any existing privileges. It would be entirely prospective in its character, and would in no way touch the right of voting, where it was at present practically existing. He was not disposed at present to say to what amount of property he would recommend that the qualification for voting should be raised; but. he conceived that it ought to be some sum not less than 5l. and not more than 10 l. It was not because he himself thought that the concessions to the Catholics ought to be accompanied by any securities, that he intended to make this proposition. He had always held that Catholic emancipation would carry with it its own security. But, although he yielded to no man in his wish that the

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benefits of the British constitution should be thrown open to all classes of his majesty's subjects without difficulty or hesitation, he felt bound to respect the conscientious scruples of those who required some securities, before they could satisfy their own minds as to the expediency of granting those benefits to his majesty's Catholic subjects; and he knew that there was a large proportion of the Protestant population of this country who considered some regulations' respecting the elective franchise in Ireland, as an indispensable accompaniment to Catholic concession. Those also who best knew what was the state of society and property in Ireland, were of opinion, that few measures could be more conducive to the welfare, prosperity, and happiness of that country. He could not sit down without stating, that, in deciding on this step, he was not influenced by any of the parties who co-operated in the bill which had been introduced into the House. He was quite ignorant of what their opinion would be on the subject. He had had no communication whatever with any of them. Perhaps he owed an apology to his hon. friend, the member for Westminster, for not having, in the first instance, submitted his intention to him. He trusted, however, that his hon. friend would believe that his not having done so was not attributable to any want of courtesy, and that he was influenced by no other view, than the supposition that it might be satisfactory to his hon. friend to be able to say, that he had had no communication with him on the subject.
Mr. M. A. Taylorsaid, that as the hon. member for Staffordshire had not gone into any details, with respect to his proposed measure, it was not his intention to enter into any discussion on the subject. But, he begged leave to enter his protest, in the first instance, against the proposition, in order that he might not hereafter be charged with inconsistency respecting it. He asked pardon of the House for speaking for a moment of himself; but, having had the honour of a seat in parliament for nearly forty-three years, he had pledged himself to the maintenance of certain principles from which he should certainly not now depart. Many years ago, and at different times, he had expressed himself in favour of Catholic emancipation. For the bill in progress through the House he had voted; because the best friends of the peace and pros-
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perity of England and Ireland thought it indispensable. But, what was the state of things now? He had never, until that moment, been told that, in order to procure Catholic emancipation, we must have a reform of the representation of Ireland, and must pay the Catholic clergy of Ireland out of the funds of England. To the proposition of paying the Catholic clergy he should have no objection; if means could be devised for doing so out of the funds of Ireland, and if the gentlemen of Ireland chose so to apply those means. But, after the number of years in which he had been employed in that House, in endeavouring to keep down the taxation of those who had sent him there, and to diminish their burthens, he did not understand being called upon to pay 240,000 l. for Catholic emancipation as a kind of boon; when he had been all along told that it was so desirable a measure. With what face could he, who had for so many years laboured to reduce taxation, acquiesce in such a proposition? Although he was a strict Protestant, and a Church of England Protestant, he had dissented from the vote for giving money to build new churches; not because he did not wish to see new churches built, but because he thought the expense ought to be defrayed by the congregations, and not by the public at large. After such a proceeding, with what face could he consent to tax his constituents for the maintenance of the Irish Roman Catholic clergy? He never would do so; and, were he the only individual in the House hostile to such a proposition, he would persevere in his opposition to it. With respect to the other proposal, for interfering with the representation of Ireland, the nature of it was directly adverse to the principles which he had all his life been advocating. Was he not one of the Friends of the People in 1793? He had always been for extending, not for limiting, the right of voting. If a forty-shilling qualification were considered as too small for an elector in Ireland, what was to prevent its being considered as too small for an elector in England? But, how would such a proposition be relished in this country? He thought himself as good a voter in the county of Durham as any man; and yet his qualification did not exceed 3l. Yet, such a proposition as that of the hon. member for Staffordshire would destroy all such qualifications. Look at many of our tenures. Look at

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the practice of Knaresborough, where the burgesses voted with a wet seal. Was it not, indeed, the practice of all burgage tenures to vote with a wet seal? All these might as well be disturbed as the elective franchise of the forty-shilling freeholders in Ireland. He was extremely sorry at the introduction of this proposition. Had the bill gone on as it was going on, it must have triumphed in that House; and, after two or three sessions, the other House would have found it impossible any longer to withstand the general opinion in its favour. But, he would now tell the hon. member for Staffordshire that, if he meant success to Catholic emancipation (and he did not doubt that he earnestly wished it), he had taken the very worst course that could possibly be adopted for obtaining that object.
Sir R. Shawwas persuaded, that nothing was so likely to conciliate the minds of the Protestants of Ireland as the proposed alteration in the elective franchise, and provision for the Roman Catholic clergy. He had received a number of letters from Ireland, all concurring in the opinion that, if those two measures were agreed to, the opposition to the Catholic Emancipation bill would be nearly done away with.
Sir J. Newportsaid, he was anxious, on all occasions, to state fully and frankly his opinions upon the various questions that were brought before that House; and he was, of course, especially solicitous to do so with reference to that vitally important measure, notice of a proposition respecting which had just been given by the hon. member for Staffordshire. He felt peculiar anxiety on this subject, because he was convinced, in his own mind, that the hon. gentleman's proposition would tend materially to facilitate the progress of the measure of which he (sir J. N.) had been, for twenty-three years in that House, and forty years out of it, the unceasing advocate. If he had failed to convince the House, that he was warmly attached to the real freedom of election, and exceedingly desirous to maintain the substantial rights of the people, down to the lowest ranks in society, he had for many years been labouring in vain. But, when the hon. member for Durham said, that he believed the Catholic question would triumph in two or three sessions, without these injurious appendages, as he termed them, he who
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knew something more of Ireland than the hon. gentleman, begged leave to tell him, that the consequences of deferring the emancipation were not to be calculated. When the hon. gentleman talked of not burthening his constituents with 240,000 l. a year for the purpose of providing for the Catholic clergy, he begged to ask him, if he should think it a better plan to pay three millions a year for soldiers? It was utterly impossible to believe, that so great a portion of the community could remain in a state of serious discontent, aggravated by various considerations, without giving occasion for large and continued expense. It was highly momentous that the question should undergo a speedy and a favourable decision. The present was, perhaps, the most fortunate period for such a decision, that could possibly occur. Parliament had a mass of evidence before them, to show the evils of the present system. They had before them the opinions of the Protestants of Ireland, as well as of the leaders of the Catholics. Let them, then, seize the golden opportunity. There was at present a concurrence of fortunate events, the continuance of which could not possibly be anticipated; and unless advantage was taken of them, to adopt means of permanently tranquillising Ireland, incalculable evils must be expected. With respect to the contemplated change in the elective franchise, he was bold to say, that whenever that subject came regularly under discussion, he should be able to prove, to the satisfaction of the most incredulous, that the elective franchise in the hands of many of those who now hold it in Ireland, so far from being a boon, was pregnant with the most injurious consequences. They were not free agents. They might be called freeholders, or free electors; but the term "free" was misapplied. They were driven, or dragged, to the hustings to do, not what they wished themselves, but what their superiors wished.
Mr. Stuart Wortleyexpressed his regret at what had fallen from the hon. member for Durham. He was in hopes that the proposition of his hon. friend the member for Staffordshire, would have met with unanimous support. He entreated his hon. friend, however, not to be deterred by any threatened opposition; for he believed in his conscience, that the House would pass the Emancipation bill, together with his hon. friend's pro-

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position; and he trusted that a great majority would be found on that side of the question.
Sir R. Wilsonobserved, that when he voted for Catholic emancipation it was with a view of increasing, not of decreasing, the rights and privileges of the Catholics of Ireland. If any abuses existed in the representation of Ireland, let a committee be appointed to investigate them. To that extent he was quite ready to go. He was ready to correct all abuses— to make fallacious voters, if such there were, substantial. But further he could not go. He must continue to maintain the act of the 33rd of Geo. 3rd, by which the Catholics were permitted to enjoy the elective franchise. He would oppose all measures which contemplated any alteration, where the votes were bona-fide registered.
Lord John Russellobserved, that it was a point agreed on, that all fraudulent votes given for the election of county members in Ireland should be taken away. But was it not reasonable to inquire into the votes given in cities and corporations? If, however, the proposed measure would tend to carry the question of Catholic emancipation, his month was stopped; for, in order to preserve the peace and tranquillity of Ireland, he felt that it was necessary to pass that measure without delay. With respect to the other proposal, of tacking to this bill for emancipation, a clause for granting 240,000 l. as a provision for the Catholic clergy, in the same way in which the government of France paid the Protestant clergy of that country, as he heard members for Ireland who knew the country, and who had well considered the measure, give their assent to it, he could not withhold his own. The sum was so small that he could not, well understand the construction of the mind of the man who would oppose so great a measure as Catholic emancipation on the grounds of such a trifle.
Sir Francis Burdettsaid, that he felt it incumbent on him to trouble the House with one or two observations. He would not go further than was strictly necessary. He fully concurred in all that had been said by the noble lord behind him. If the necessity of the case required it, he would be ready to support this proposed measure respecting the elective franchise, in order to carry that question of paramount importance, Catholic emancipation. As to the proposed stipend to the Catho-
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lic clergy, in the view of economy, the money required for that object would be so utterly trifling, that it would not balance the weight of a straw, in the conclusion of any rational mind, one way or the other. But, at all events, he was not implicated in the fate of these propositions. Catholic emancipation was the sole measure for which he was pledged; nor would he consent to mingle less significant details with that great question. At the same time, he was willing to make great sacrifices to obtain the emancipation of the Catholics, and should like to know upon what terms the government were ready to give it their support. He would take the opportunity of doing justice to a gentleman who had been much talked of, and in some degree misrepresented, both in that House and elsewhere. A right hon. gentleman (Mr. Tierney) had taken upon himself to deny, that any member of the Catholic delegation had been consulted, upon drawing up the bill which was now before the House. The facts were these, Mr. O'Connell had been examined before the committee, together with other gentlemen of the delegation, as persons the best qualified to furnish the committee with exact information upon the state of the public mind in Ireland, and on the safest mode to be resorted to for quieting the uneasy state of that country. Mr. O'Connell had been requested to draw up a rough sketch of a bill which his professional habits enabled him to do in a correct manner. Nor would it ever have entered his head that a bill so drawn, if deliberately revised and approved of by the committee, would, on that account only, be objected to. It did, however, form a ground of objection; and the draught was thrown aside. A bill was then prepared in exact conformity with one of the same nature, which had already passed the House; and this was neither framed by Mr. O'Connell, nor was he at all consulted about it. That gentleman's statement to the people of Ireland was perfectly consistent with the facts. He trusted, that the support which was due to the principle of this bill would be given to it, notwithstanding the qualifications with which it was proposed to accompany it; and that those qualifications would not be mixed with it in its immediate progress. It would be time enough for those who were friendly to the bill, to oppose the qualifications, when the question should be brought before the House.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, it was not his wish to provoke any discussion upon the question, but he wished the course he intended to take to be perfectly clear and well understood. He had no hesitation in stating that he could not accept of the two measures as a compromise. The proposed plans of disfranchising the forty-shilling voters, and of making a state provision for the clergy, would not induce him to relax his opposition to the pretensions of the Catholics. But, it was possible that his opinions upon the Catholic claims might be over-ruled, and then the question would be, what course he should pursue in endeavouring to modify future proceedings. Upon this his mind was not made up. In the present state of the question, he should declare that he could not accept of the proposed measures as a compromise for withdrawing his opposition to the Catholic claims.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that even if he were hostile to the two propositions, yet if it could be proved that they were likely to become the means of conciliation, and cause many persons to wave their opposition to the principle, that would strongly bias his mind towards their adoption. He reserved himself, however, for the proper opportunity of deciding upon them. He was determined to give the whole subject his most earnest consideration. He wished to add one word upon the case of a distinguished individual of the Catholic Association. He was happy to have the confirmation of the hon. baronet to an assertion which he had made on a previous night. The House had been advised by the right hon. Secretary opposite, to watch the bill narrowly in its progress through the committee, if it were to reach that stage; and the reason urged by the right hon. gentleman was, that the bill itself had been drawn by a gentleman who was one of the chief members of the Catholic Association. He had then stated to the House, that the fact must have been misrepresented to the right hon. gentleman, as his statement disagreed with the strict truth of the case. He could not see any great impropriety in the conduct of the committee in applying to the quarter from whence they were likely to procure the greatest abundance of information. For his own part, he had made it a rule to withhold from any communication with that body, because he wished to give an opinion which should be the result of his own unbiassed judg-
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ment upon the question. He by no means blamed those who took a different course, and who probably arrived by that means at much more valuable information than he himself could reach. He thought that the explanation which had just taken place was an act of bare justice to Mr. O'Connell.
Mr. Brownlowdid not pledge himself to any particular line of conduct; but, from an extensive correspondence with those who had lived in constant hostility to emancipation, he was enabled to say that, in the event of that question being carried, it would materially lessen the general alarm, if it were accompanied with a provision for the Catholic clergy and a qualification of the franchise. Whether the Catholic question were carried or not, it was nothing more than a becoming measure to provide for the Catholic clergy, who, in the performance of the most numerous and arduous duties, might be said, almost without a figure, to be left to beg their bread. As to the question of elective franchise, he said, as heretofore, that it was miscalled a franchise when applied to the 40 s. freeholders—that they were not freeholders—had no free choice—could exercise no freedom of election. A Catholic bishop had declared, that he had seen men with the appearance of mendicants going to register their votes, though there was nothing like a qualification in their leases. They were compelled to go, or they must look for the severest consequences. A most respectable witness, Mr. Blake, had stated, that emancipation would be incomplete, if not accompanied with a provision for the Catholic clergy, and an increase of the qualification in the elective franchise, Freedom of choice these electors had none. Their bodies were threatened by their landlords—their minds were in spiritual danger, if they did not vote according as they were directed.
Mr. C. Grantsaid, he apprehended, that few persons had ever considered the affairs of Ireland seriously, with whatever view, without wishing for a remedy to two evils — the want of provision for the Catholic clergy, and the abuse of the elective franchise by the 40 s. freeholds, As to the priesthood, they merited, for their services in assuaging the disorders of the country, more than any sum which could be voted to them; and, if the qualification of the elective franchise would conciliate opposition to the measures of

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emancipation, he would cheerfully acquiesce in it, for the sake of uniting so large a portion of the population in a stricter bond of union.
Mr. Dawsondid not see how the Protestants were to be conciliated by taking away their elective franchise, with a view to granting Catholic emancipation with safety. The Catholics, doubtless, would obtain a boon; but, what would the Protestants get? There were many parts of Ireland in which the elective franchise was as purely exercised by 40 s. freeholders, as in England. It did not appear to him, that their assent would be more easily secured by depriving them of their votes, as a concomitant measure.
Mr. W. Courtenaysaid, he could not contemplate the two propositions of paying the priesthood, and qualifying the elective franchise, as conditions of compromise. Of themselves, he considered them particularly salutary, and highly necessary to the welfare of Ireland. He had the misfortune to differ with his constituents upon the subject of emancipation. They were impressed, as he was, with the present state of things. But they, unlike himself, were of opinion that there was less danger now, than there would be after granting the Catholic claims. For his own part, he would support the bill of the hon. baronet, whether it were accompanied with those qualifications or not.
Mr. Littletondisclaimed the most remote intention of interfering with the rights of real 40 s. freeholders in Ireland.

MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES—PUBLIC BUILDINGS.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply, Mr. Herries moved, "That 40,000 l. be granted to defray the expenses of Works and Repairs of Public Buildings, for the year 1825."
Mr. Humewished to ask one question respecting the expenses of the King's-bench and the Fleet prisons. An act of parliament, passed many years ago, required the expenses of ail repairs done to these prisons to be paid and provided for out of the fees accruing to certain officers appointed for the management and government of the same. Those fees, however, had latterly been taken entirely by the individuals nominated to such offices. Now, he wished to know whether any arrangement had been entered into between the government and those individuals, in
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consequence of which the public were likely to be reimbursed any part of the expenses to which they were annually subjected on account of these prisons?
Mr. Herriesapprehended that the hon gentleman alluded to the act passed in 1724. It was very true, that that act did provide that the marshal for the time being should, out of his fees, provide for the repairs of the King's-bench prison, then to be built under the very same statute. In 1780, the prison was destroyed; and it had become a question, whether the act of George 2nd could be applied to any other than the prison which had so existed up to the year 1780. It was considered, that it could not; and that construction, he believed, had been acted on ever since. Whether the arrangement provided under the act of George 2nd was a proper one to be again acted upon, might, undoubtedly, be a proper subject of consideration.
Sir M. W. Ridleywas of opinion, that for the principal officers of the government, it would be highly proper, as well as convenient for the public service, to provide official dwellings attached to their respective offices, at the expense of the public. He begged to ask, whether it was intended to continue along the present line, and over the vacant space which one end of Downing-steet at that time presented, that extraordinary range of buildings which had been commenced at the Treasury, and which was so odd an elevation, that he hardly knew how to describe it. If it resembled any thing, with its one tier of building so strangely heaped upon the top of the other, it resembled a double stand on a race-course. Indeed, it reminded him strongly of the stand on the race-course at Doncaster.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad no hesitation in saying, that the buildings which were to be erected in continuation of the present structures, would be in strict uniformity and harmony, and upon a well-considered plan. He was aware that the public attention was at present directed to public buildings, more than in former times. It was not easy for an architect, of all other persons, to escape criticism; because his work was exposed to the public eye during its progress, and commentaries were often put upon detached and imperfect parts of a structure, which would not apply to it when in its finished state. This was a disadvantage which the architect had to en-

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counter. Since the commencement of the building alluded to, it was thought that, in consequence of the defects and the nuisances which rendered the public offices in the vicinity so very unsightly at present, it would be desirable to make an alteration in the Home-office, and Council-office. A plan was at present under consideration, for uniting, under one facade, the Council-office, the office of the Board of Trade, and the Home-office. It was not determined on as yet; but he was able to state, that the buildings to be erected would be uniform, and in perfect harmony with each other. At the rear of the right flank of Downing-street, there was a space which his hon. friend said, would admit of the erection of residences for the accommodation of some of the officers of state. Now, the windows of the Home-office, the Council-office, and the office of the Board of Trade, looked into this space, and it was obvious that they must not crowd it too much. Besides, the extent of the space itself, would not allow them to build much. However, the space could certainly, with great advantage, be laid out for the erection of Exchequer offices, as it would be extremely advantageous to have these offices near the Treasury. He did not think that the space to which he had been alluding could be made use of, for the purpose of erecting suitable residences for the public officers. In fact, the depth of the space did not exceed that of a good room, and a little space for a passage Upon the general principle of residences being provided at the public expense for public officers, he thought such a provision extremely desirable. It might happen that an individual was called to fill a high public function, who might not be in circumstances to enable him to receive that company, which it was his duty to receive, in a manner becoming his situation. Hitherto, it had not been the custom for the leading public functionaries to have official residences, with the exception of the first lord of the Treasury, the chancellor of the Exchequer, and the first lord of the Admiralty. The house which he himself at present occupied belonged to the first lord of the Treasury; and he occupied it entirely through the courtesy of his noble friend. The secretary of the Treasury was in the occupation of the official residence of the chancellor of the Exchequer. The first lord of the Admiralty was obliged, from the nature of his
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duties, to be resident at his office. Those who were at all acquainted with the extensive intercourse which the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was compelled to maintain with persons of distinction, would be at once alive to the necessity of his being in a situation to afford a suitable reception to such persons. It was necessary to the due dignity of the government. He considered the hint which had been thrown out by his hon. friend deserving of serious consideration. However, care should be taken not to push the principle too far. No doubt the provision would be an addition to the income of ministers. He hoped, however, that if such a provision was intended, parliament would not act niggardly, and would consider that it was not private convenience, but public dignity, that they were consulting.
Mr. Lockhartdecidedly objected to any propositions of the kind. If splendid houses were to be built for the great officers of the government, there must follow, as matter of course, additional incomes, and sumptuous furniture. The general effect of such a system might he to render the officers themselves less accessible than they at present were; and to increase the public burthens. And this he should the more lament, inasmuch as his majesty's present ministers had certainly shown more feeling for the people, than any he had ever known. Let them, first of all, relieve the public burthens, and then they might fairly "come down to parliament and suggest improvements, distinguished by as much magnificence as they chose to impose into them.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer,remarked, that from the manner in which the hon. gentleman had just spoken of the suggestions of his hon. friend, a stranger might suppose the hon. gentleman to be talking of the intended erection of some magnificent palace, filled with costly furniture. Now, as for himself, he lived in an official house, but the furniture happened to be his own: such as it was, he was perfectly satisfied with it; though he must say, that if he should be put into another erected at the public cost, he should not be less accessible than at present. The hon. member for Oxford very seldom had occasion to honour him with a visit of a public nature; but though that hon. member did not, he could assure the House, that most of the other members had occasion to do so in the course of the session.
Mr. Littletondid not think it necessary to provide all the ministers with houses built at the public expense; but there were some, for whom such an expense was absolutely necessary. He would instance the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. No one could doubt that it was necessary, both on account of the dignity of the office which that right hon. gentleman held, and for the convenience of the foreign ministers, with whom he was constantly transacting business, to provide him a house at the public expense. With respect to the other ministers, whom he believed to be greatly underpaid, perhaps it would be better that they should have an increase of salary than that houses should be provided for them.
Mr. W. Smithanimadverted on the extreme facility with which gentlemen had lately indulged in reflections upon the architects employed on the public buildings. Almost every member who had spoken on these subjects, forgetting the old maxim, "de gustibus non est disputandum," seemed to believe that he had discovered some infallible rule of excellence, by the test of which all new edifices might be tried; and, if their proportions and aspects did not come up to this test, hon. gentlemen really loaded the parties with the severest censures, not to say the most opprobrious epithets, alike inconsistent with ordinary candour, and offensive to good manners. They spoke as if they themselves were intimately acquainted with all the rules received in the science of architecture; and as if every thing was to be conceded to their opinions, and nothing to the technical skill, the knowledge, or the judgment of the architect whose works they reprobated.
Mr. James Martinrequested to be informed, what was the nature of the defect that had displayed itself in the structure of the Custom-house, and by whom the expenses of repairing and remedying it were to be defrayed?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it was intended, that they should come out of the funds of that department of the revenue. It was impossible for him to say what would be the amount of the expenses of repairing that place. It was true, that it had been built at a great expense to the public, under the direction of an architect, who was not at the time under the same control, as the other architects employed in public works at present were; namely, that of the Board of
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Works. He trusted, however, that no architect would be again employed in the same manner, or remain under so little control, as the architect of the Customhouse had been. In fact, he was the architect to the Customs; and, in consequence of holding that situation, the task of erecting the Custom-house, had been intrusted to him. He had employed a builder under a contract. In that contract the specifications were all drawn out, and when the building was finished, the architect certified, that the work had been done according to the specifications. It turned out, however, that part of the building known as the Long Room, had given way; and he feared it was too true, that a most scandalous fraud had been committed upon the public. It was to have been built upon piles, and the Long Room especially was to have stood, according to the specification, on an arch, the pillars of which were to have been supported by nine regular piles of considerable strength. Now instead of this having been done, it stood only on four piles and a half, which were not placed regularly; and intead of these piles being round pieces of solid timber, like the masts of ships, they turned out to be merely trees, with the branches chopped off. That was undoubtedly a fraud; and every pains had been taken to obtain repayment from, the builder for the loss that had been suffered. He was generally believed to be a person of large property, and means had been adopted to render that property available to answer the expense, should he ultimately be found to be liable. He did not know that the parties concerned in this building had done any thing to bring themselves within the operation of the law; but that point was at present under the consideration of the law officers of the Crown; and, if it should be found that they had rendered themselves liable to the operation of the Combination law; they would be proceeded against for a conspiracy. Whether there could be sufficient proofs of a combination between the parties, he did not know; but, undoubtedly, he could say this, that means had been taken to examine fully into the matter, in order to afford the fullest satisfaction to the public.
Mr. Alderman Woodyhaving the pleasure of knowing Mr. Peto, thought that charges of this kind, coming from so high a quarter, ought not to be hazarded, until they could be brought forward in some

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tangible shape. Seeing that the right hon. gentleman spoke of offences so serious in their character, the accusation ought to be distinct, and the grounds of it ought to be distinctly stated. First of all, he had heard that Mr. Laing the architect had not pursued the plan which he ought to have gone upon; and then, again, he was told that the gentleman who contracted with this architect, had not performed his work according to the stipulated specifications between them. Many reports had been, and many more would now be circulated, to the prejudice of Mr. Peto's character. This was wrong. If he was to be tried, he ought at least to have a fair trial. He had hitherto conducted himself with the greatest propriety, and he ought not now to be attacked in this manner upon mere supposition.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he should not have stated what he had done, had not the question been put to him. He did not charge either of the parties with having acted improperly, he had merely said, that if it should appear that they had acted collusively, they would be proceeded against. He had not the slightest wish to institute proceedings against them; but if proceedings became necessary, they certainly would be instituted.
Mr. Alderman Woodobserved, that the sooner these injurious reports were set at rest the better. The individual to whom allusion had been made had at present works in hand, the execution of which would amount to upwards of 300,000 l. On one occasion he had been obliged to give his vote against that individual, in consequence of the rumours that had been set afloat.
Mr. Maberlysaid, that if ministers were underpaid, their salaries ought not to be made up by building them magnificent houses; for that would only be attended with an increase of expense in their style of living. The only true way to remove the evil, if it existed, was to increase their salaries so as to afford them a proper remuneration for their important labours.
Mr. Bernalobserved, that one of the individuals who had been occupied in building for the public, alleged that from 20,000 l. to 30,000 l. were due to him. This was a subject that called for inquiry. He conceived it would be very proper in future, to have a regular superintendant of public works.
Mr. Baringsaid, he was much in favour of building houses for the principal officers of state, not for the convenience of the individuals, but for the benefit of the public.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, he wished to see his majesty's ministers provided with houses, in every respect comfortable and convenient; but he had no desire that splendid mansions should be erected for them at a great expense. He was sure, if new houses were erected for them, the public business would be considerably expedited.
Mr. Humeobjected to the way in which buildings, the property of the public, were at present disposed of. In some instances, individuals, whose salaries were not more than 120 l. a year, were placed in houses of the value of 2,500 l. or 3,000 l. He really thought that they had already laid out quite sufficient on public buildings. One million had been voted for building churches, 300,000 l. for repairing Windsor Castle, with a long list of at ceteras. Surely these grants were sufficient. He did not object to the particular charge now under consideration; but, seeing such items introduced from year to year, he thought it required a great deal of consideration, before they proceeded further. No building should be carried on, by means of the public money, unless it was absolutely demanded for the public service.
Mr. T. Wilsonwas anxious, when public works were undertaken, that they should be prosecuted on the most efficient, and, at the same time, the most economical plan. He would not spoil a work for the sake of a trifling saving. There was such a thing as spending a pound in the endeavour to save a shilling. There ought, in his opinion, to be an enlargement of the chief public offices. Formerly, the same business was not transacted in them as there was at present. He looked upon money laid out in rendering those offices more convenient, as most beneficially expended. It was, in fact, a piece of public economy.
On the resolution, "That 40,000 l. be granted to defray the expense of Buildings at the British Museum, for the year 1825,"
Mr. R. Colbornerose and spoke in favour of having the National Gallery of Pictures, the foundation of which had been recently laid, placed in a separate building, and in a more central situation than

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that which was now contemplated. The Angerstein collection, which contained many valuable specimens of art, ought, he conceived, to be placed in a more central situation, where they might be accessible to those who understood their merits, and were attached to the fine arts. He conceived that the British Museum was placed in a situation better adapted for the exhibition of works of science and of curiosity, than for the study of works of art. He wished to see government lending every assistance to the progress of art in this country; and was, therefore, desirous that the collection of marshal Soult should be purchased.
Sir C. Longadmitted, that there were many good pictures in the collection of marshal Soult; but there were also some of an indifferent character. With respect to the Angerstein collection, he could say of it, what could scarcely be said of any other collection, that it did not contain a work which was unworthy of a national gallery. As to the erection of a gallery in this part of the town, he had no objection to such a project: but this difficulty arose, that the pictures were, by act of parliament, placed under the trustees of the British Museum. He knew no hands to whom such a deposit could be more properly confided; and he could not see how they could erect a building in another part of the town for a national gallery, without separating the duties that would be connected with that establishment, from those which were attached to the British Museum.
Mr. Secretary Peelobserved, that the superintendence of the national gallery, wherever it might be situated, ought to be left to the trustees of the British Museum; for certainly there was no public body so fit to undertake the duty. For this reason, sir George Beaumont had made the donation of his collection to them- At the same time, he must say, that if the national gallery were banished to the neighbourhood of St. Giles's and Russell-square it would much lessen the value of the collection. It ought to be established where, to use an expression of Dr. Johnson, "the great tide of human existence flowed;" and he knew of no more fit situation than the neighbourhood of Pall-mall or Charing-cross. It was even desirable that the paintings should not be in the same place with the other interesting objects in the Museum. It was not when exhausted by viewing
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sculptures, and other works of antiquity and taste, that one should go into the gallery of paintings—[hear, hear.] It would be better to go on another day. He was not only friendly to the purchase of pictures, but would go a step further, and say, that when they were purchased, the public ought not, and he was sure would not, object to a proper place for their exhibition.
Mr. Hobhousesaid, that when he visited the British Museum, it was by mere chance he discovered that there were any pictures within its walls. He certainly wished that the national gallery of paintings should be separated from the British Museum. He did not like the idea of the great works of Raphael and Guido being placed in the same edifice with collections of animals and fossils. Such a mixture would be like uniting the Jardin des Plantes with the Musée. He was hostile to having so many valuable works of nature and of art accumulated under the same roof, because they were, in case of fire or any other accident, liable, at one moment, to the same catastrophe. He had no objection to allowing the supervision of the pictures to remain with the trustees of the British Museum. With respect to the collection of marshal Soult (a collection, by the way, which he had plundered in Spain), it undoubtedly contained some very fine specimens of art; but, on the whole, it was a question, whether it was worth purchasing.
Mr. Humehoped, if a new gallery was to be erected, that the plan would be fairly laid before the House. The neighbourhood of Charing-cross appeared to him to be the best adapted for the purpose.
Mr. Crokersaid, that sir George Beaumont had made his bequest after the question had been mooted as to the situation of the gallery. He had intrusted his pictures to the trustees of the British Museum, as a corporate body acting on behalf of the public, and for the public benefit. The Dulwich collection was at least as fine as that of sir George Beaumont; and was quite as distant as Russell-square; though he did not profess to know exactly where Russell square was [a laugh]! Sir F. Bourgeois had given his pictures to Dulwich College, because he knew not where else to deposit them. The first use of the arts was, perhaps, the enjoyment of the few; but, the great object ought to be the improvement and civilization of the many. It was the business, then, of legis-

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lators and patrons of art to afford, not merely enjoyment, but a useful lesson: to place that lesson where, as had justly been said, the great tide of human existence flowed, and not in Russell-square, where the collection would only be visited by a few cognoscenti, virtuosi, and picture-dealers.
Sir C. Longobserved, that many persons were of opinion, that the national statues and pictures ought to be placed in the same gallery. The returns upon the table showed, that, in the last year, upwards of 100,000 persons had visited the British Museum.
Mr. Crokersaid, he had been credibly informed, that many thousands had been attracted thither by the two white bears, imported by captain Parry.
Mr. Maberlysaw no reason why the trustees of the Museum should not be transferred, with all the buildings, to a more convenient situation. Large sums had been already very unsatisfactorily expended upon the building in Bloomsbury.
Mr. Peelsaid, he had no objection to the building of a national gallery in the neighbourhood of Pall-mall, provided it were placed under the superintendence of the trustees of the British Museum, who had served the public so long and so ably.
Mr. Bernalsuggested, that the situation of the King's mews appeared the fittest for the purpose. Report stated, that Bow-street office, a house for the chief magistrate, and a house for the Rector of St. Martin's were to occupy that place. It had also been reported, that the royal academicians were to be turned out of Somerset house, in order to have public offices there. He thought this was a favourable opportunity for building a public gallery, in the place where the king's mews stood.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he was happy to find the House so ready to coincide in the proposition for erecting a national gallery. He knew not in what hands the national pictures could be placed, with greater propriety, than in the hands of those to whom they were at present intrusted. Every body at all conversant with the subject admitted, that they were the very best persons to whom the custody of so great a charge could be given. From the manner in which they had heretofore discharged their duty, the fullest confidence should, he conceived, be placed in them. As to the particular
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opportunity of selecting a plan on which it might be proper to raise a national gallery, to which allusion had been made, he should say a very few words. He apprehended, that if the hon. gentleman knew the localities of that spot, he would not deem the object he had in view so easy of attainment. The king's portion of that ground was by no means so large as the hon. gentleman imagined; and, if they wished in that quarter to have a good entrance into one of the most populous parts of London, such an entrance was entirely incompatible with the hon. gentleman's plan. If the hon. gentleman took into the account, the large space occupied by the Golden Cross and the houses between St. Martin's-lane and the mews, there was undoubtedly, considerable room for the exercise of taste and ingenuity; but it must be recollected, that this ground did not belong to the Crown. Now, as to the royal academy, no man who had once seen the exhibition at Somerset-house could doubt that, of all the places in which works of art could be displayed, this was the very worst. The archway was not large enough to admit more than one carriage. The only room in which sculpture could be exhibited must, of necessity, be on the ground floor, owing to the weight of those productions. In Somerset-house the room appropriated for this purpose was so paltry a hole, that all the beauty of the works was lost; and he could not but wonder, that any man of eminence would suffer his productions to be thrust into such an unworthy place. The other rooms were equally bad. The largest was at the very top of the building; and, so long was the ascent to it, that no gouty gentleman or corpulent lady (and such persons had as good right to see the exhibition as those who were more active) could ever hope to attain the difficult height. He should be glad to see some more convenient place provided for the royal academy; and, in that case, the royal society, who were much in want of such accommodation, could have the entire possession of Somerset-house.
Mr. Hobhousesaid, he was glad to hear, that it was intended to throw open the area in front of the king's-mews at Charing-cross. He hoped to hear also, that it was the intention of government to remove the barracks which now stood there, and which were felt by the persons living in that neighbourhood to be a serious inconvenience. Numerous representations

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had been made to him by his constituents, who were locally interested. They complained, that they were deprived of a right of way, which they had enjoyed from time immemorial, and of their right to the continuance of which they were so well satisfied, that they had determined to try to establish it against the Crown, if it should be longer withheld from them. He had no doubt, however, that these persons would willingly see the building which at present occupied the ground, and which was very handsome and well adapted for such a purpose, converted into a lodging for the productions of the arts. This would at once be beneficial to the country, and remove an object which was extremely disagreeable to them, because it was unnecessary and unconstitutional. It could not be said that there existed the slightest pretence for a barrack of such an extent in such a place.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the barrack was still to continue in the place where it was at present established. There was, however, no intention to close the area in front of the building, or to withhold from the public the passage of which the hon. gentleman spoke. He thought the hon. gentleman was a little mistaken, when he characterized the building in the mews, as a very handsome one. It was built from a design by Kent, and and was well enough adapted for the purpose for which it was erected. It was I originally intended for stables; and the facade was sufficiently handsome for a building of that nature. It was, however, in no respect fit for a gallery for works of art. Its construction was altogether so unsuitable to such a purpose, that he felt compelled to say, that of all the projects he had heard of, that of the hon. gentleman seemed to him the most singular. With respect to the objections of the hon. gentleman's constituents against the barracks, he had only to observe, that, for many years past, troops had been stationed in that part of the town; and he knew of no spot more convenient for their reception.
Mr. Crokerbegged to call the attention of the House to the way in which the royal society was at present lodged in Somerset-House; a way which was unworthy, and even disgraceful. They possessed a fine library; but; for want of room, many parts of it were put away in cases and boxes; which not only rendered the access to them difficult, if not impos-
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sible, but seriously injured the books. He hoped that the hint which had been thrown out that evening would be shortly carried into effect, and that they would be put into possession of the apartments at Somerset-house, now occupied by the royal academy.