Sitting of 4 July 1825

STATE OF IRELAND —CATHOLIC QUESTION.
The Earl of Harrowbylaid on the table a copy of the Report of the Committee on the State of Ireland.
The Earl of Darnleysaid, he could not suffer the report to be laid on the table, or the session to close, without some observations. As a member of the committee he had concurred in the Report; for it certainly contained many useful suggestions, on several of the minor points of the inquiry. On the great and important subject, however, which he must always consider paramount to every other, and without a settlement of which all other attempts to ameliorate the condition of Ireland would be ineffectual, the committee had abstained from offering any opinion. In that also he had acquiesced, from a conviction that the members of the committee could never come to any agreement on the subject. He must, however, take that opportunity to repeat the opinion which every day's experience more and more confirmed, that, sooner or later, the claims of the Roman Catholics must be conceded, and that without a settlement of that question, Ireland never could be permanently tranquil, prosperous, or happy. He deeply lamented the rejection of the bill lately sent up by the Commons, and could not help expressing his surprise and regret, to see the noble earl at the head of the government assume, on that occasion, a more decided tone of opposition to the measure than he had ever before manifested; and he was the more astonished by the noble earl's speech, from his knowledge of the attention which had been paid by that noble lord to the evidence given before the committee. Let not the noble earl suppose, however, that his opinion, or the decision of the House itself; had put the question at rest. A popular cry had been raised in England; and, as far as England only was concerned, the question might be supposed set at rest: but, far different was the case in Ireland, the part of the empire most interested in the decision. In that country, so far from the question having been set at rest, it was becoming, not so much a Catholic, as a national question. The Protestants of Ireland were impressed with a daily increasing conviction, that they were, if possible, more interested in the settlement of it, than the Catholics themselves.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that though it was irregular to refer to the sources in which his opinion was to be found, if the noble earl did refer to them he would find that he had not expressed a stronger opinion this session on the Catholic question than on former occasions. With respect to any recommendation on the subject to which the noble lord had alluded from the committee, it would have been contrary to all practice. The business of the committee was to report information.

COMBINATION OF WORKMEN BILL.
On the order of the day for going into a committee on this bill,
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he had several petitions to present against the bill. He expressed his regret, that the House should be called upon, within two days of the prorogation, to pass a bill which was of so important a nature. In addition to this precipitation into which they were driven, their lordships were not sure that the information necessary to enable them to come to a proper decision was on the table of the House. Under these circumstances, it was with great reluctance that he gave his assent to the measure. The petitions he had to present prayed that counsel might be heard against the bill; and, if there were time, it would be their lordships' duty to accede to this prayer.
The Earl of Liverpoolthought there was sufficient time for any discussion which could be necessary. The measure arose almost entirely out of the bill of last session, which had been hastily passed. He had not been aware of its extent, and did not, until it came into operation, know its provisions. There were, as their lordships knew, many old statutes for the regulation of labour, which had an injurious influence on trade. Had the bill been confined to the repeal of those statutes, it would have been a very proper measure. But what did it do? It, at one sweep, repealed the whole of the common law a respecting the relations of master and servant. Soon after it passed, disturbances and acts of violence took place in different parts of the country; and it became absolutely necessary to pass some act on the subject before the session closed. Though brought in at a very late period of the session, he had no difficulty in saying, that he considered it indispensably necessary. Even if there were defects in the measure, the allowing them to pass could not be

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compared with the mischief which would follow if the law were left in its present state. This bill not only prevented the combination of workmen against masters, and of masters against workmen, but prevented the combination of workmen against workmen. This was a protection which the honest and good workman had a right to expect. The bill repealed the act of last session; but, in doing so, it also repealed the old restrictive statutes which were repealed by that act, while it restored the common law to its former state. Objection had been made to the clause for protecting workmen which contained the word "molestation," but that was a word well known to the law, and would have a fair interpretation. The present bill allowed an appeal from the decisions of magistrates to the quarter sessions.
The Marquis of Lansdownagreed, that some measure of this kind was necessary, and more particularly that it was necessary to protect the workmen against themselves. He wished every facility to be given both to masters and workmen to consult about the rise or fall of wages; but it was obvious, that no manufacture could be carried on, if workmen could dictate to the masters who should be employed, and prevent men from exercising their right of labouring on whatever terms they might please. This was what never could be tolerated in a free country. Such a practice never could be sanctioned by law; and what the legislature would not be authorized to do, surely ought not to be allowed to be done by individuals. If the interference of workmen with each other were permitted to go on, trade would be forced from one place to another, until it would at last be driven out of the country. However, if any body of persons should, after the bill had passed, continue to think themselves aggrieved by it, he should next session vote for their being heard by counsel against the act.
The Earl of Rosslynconcurred in the necessity of protecting workmen from the effect of combinations among themselves.
The bill passed the committee without amendment, and was reported. The standing order being dispensed with, it was read a third time and passed.

COUNTRY BANKS.
Earl Grosvenorsaid, he could not allow the session to close without calling the attention of their lordships to a subject of great importance.
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He alluded to the liability of country banks to pay their notes in gold. As the law was at present, the summary process which formerly might issue against bankers was abolished: and, as the subject was one which would create great anxiety, he thought it would be advisable to pass a short act, even during the present session, restoring the summary process.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that the holders of notes had a better remedy than could be given by any new act, in the law and the practice of banking credit as it now stood. There could be no doubt that country bankers were bound to pay in the current coin of the realm; and the responsibility of not doing so threatened consequences to a banking establishment of good credit, much more weighty than a new act of parliament could enforce.
Lord Clifdencomplained of the conduct of the Bank of Ireland, which paid its notes in guineas, instead of sovereigns, in order to discourage the demand for gold. The guineas were not current at present; and those who received them were at a loss how to dispose of them.