Sitting of 25 April 1825

COMBINATION LAWS.
Mr. Hobhousepresented a petition from a deputation from the weavers of Rochdale, who had arrived in London, praying that they might be examined before the committee to whose consideration the Combination Laws had been referred. The hon. gentleman observed, that in the course of the evening a petition would be presented from above 4,000 weavers of Rochdale, praying that the act for the repeal of the Combination laws, which had passed last session, might not be rescinded. It was evident that even the repeal of bad laws, if those laws had been long in existence, might, in the first instance, have an unfavourable tendency; and therefore that it would be extremely unjust to pronounce upon the expediency of such a repeal after only six months' experience. He confessed that he was astonished when he heard the other evening, the president of the Board a Trade complain of the enactments of last session upon this subject, as if he had not been a party to them. Now, he had attended the committee upon it pretty regularly, and he considered the
150
right hon. gentleman a complete party to what had been done. He was, therefore, astonished to hear the right hon. gentleman disclaim any participation in it. He was confident, that the more the House and country considered these important topics, the more they would be convinced of the propriety of continuing the repeal of the Combination laws.
Lord Stanleypresented a petition from the operative woollen manufacturers of Rochdale, against the re-enactment of the Combination laws.
Mr. Sykesobserved, that, on a former evening, remarks had been made on the conduct of the committee of last year, on the Combination laws, which, had he been present, he certainly would have answered. He thought that committee had been very hardly used. It was a committee composed of a number of most intelligent gentlemen, with the exception of one; and they had most carefully investigated the subject. Some evils did undoubtedly arise from the operation of the new law; but those evils were nothing, when compared with the state of things which existed before the law was altered. By that measure hundreds of thousands of people had been released from the unjust shackles which had before been imposed on them. He was not so much surprised, under the circumstances of the case, that a few acts of violence had been committed, as that they were so small in number. If an attempt were made to reenact those laws, it would, he was sure, be prejudicial to the peace and tranquillity of the country.
Sir M. W. Ridleythought it right to say, that the committee had no such intention, as that to which the hon. member had alluded. They had only considered what the effect of those laws had been. To that simple inquiry they confined themselves, without indulging in any idea as to what their future conduct should be. They had opened their doors to petitions from all quarters; they had endeavoured to get as much information as possible; and, whatever they might ultimately recommend to the House would depend entirely on that evidence.
Ordered to lie on the table.

CORN LAWS.
Mr. T. Wilsonrose to present a petition, signed by a numerous and respectable body of the merchants, bankers, ship-owners, and other inhabitants of the city of London, amounting to

151
upwards of 5,000 persons, on a most important question; namely, a revision of the Corn laws of this country. He hoped, as the subject was one of deep and general interest, that the House would favour him with their attention, while he made a few observations upon it. The petition was the result of one of the most numerous and respectable public meetings that ever was convened. The meeting was so unanimous, that but a single hand was held up against two of the resolutions on which the petition was founded. The petitioners begged leave to express their opinion, that a high price of food generally, as compared with the price of other countries, was a very great evil: it deprived the mass of the people of many comforts; it lowered the energy of labour in this country; it retarded the production of wealth; it had an injurious effect on commerce; and was prejudicial to the English character; generally, in foreign markets. They were also of opinion, that the constant variation in the price of corn was an evil scarcely less than the existence of extravagant prices themselves. Under the existing system, the people never could have the benefit of corn the growth of foreign countries, until that article had reached a very high price here. In consequence, they had to pay nearly double the sum which ought to be paid for that article when imported, because the foreign markets were guided by ours; they assimilated as nearly as they could to our prices; and when those prices rose, a progressive rise took place in the continental markets. By delaying to open the ports until corn was at an extravagantly high rate, they were ultimately obliged to pay double the price for which they might have purchased it, had the ports been opened a few months before. There was another inconvenience produced by this extraordinary rise of price. When the price mounted up to a great height, foreign countries were immediately induced to unlock their surplus produce, for the purpose of deriving the benefit of that high price. When corn thus came in from all quarters, the market was completely deluged with it; and it afterwards took three, four, or five years to relieve the country from it. During this time the landed interest must bring their corn to market under circumstances of great disadvantage. They were compelled to sell it for what they could get; which would not be the case, if there was a fair protecting duty, and the ports were
152
allowed to be commonly open. Under these circumstances, and considering, likewise, that the present law was subject to great abuse, and that the regulation of the trade had not operated in the way which was contemplated when the law was framed, the petitioners came to parliament to request that the act should be repealed, and that a different and more beneficial system should be pursued. They stated, that a fixed duty on the importation of corn appeared to them to be the most wise and efficacious measure that could be adopted. It was, they conceived, the only way in which a fair trade could be carried on; since by it they would get rid of the mischief to which the country was at present liable from fraudulent returns; and, if the landed interest did not get such very high prices as they did from time to time, they would receive fair remunerating prices, and would enjoy a steady market. The petitioners took the liberty of stating their belief, that the difference between the charges in one country and in another afforded the best criterion of what a protecting duty should be. The petitioners wished such a duty to be levied as would allow corn to be sold at a fair price. They were by no means desirous that it should be so low as to induce a depression of price, that would be injurious to the landowner. The petitioners observed, that it might be supposed, by those who had not considered the subject, that the manufacturing interest was at variance with the landed interest. This they denied; and they declared their firm conviction, that the principles advocated by them, would, on the contrary, lead to an increase of trade which would be most beneficial to both parties. As he had been intrusted with this petition, he would say, that as no man would go further than he would to place this trade on a proper foundation, so no man would approach the subject with greater delicacy. It was hardly possible for any person to say what was the exact price which would afford a fair protection to the landed interest. In apportioning that protection, if he erred, he certainly would rather err by giving too much than by giving too little. He was anxious, as far as possible, to place trade of every kind on a footing conformable with the sentiments of the right hon. gentleman who was at the head of the Board of Trade. There was one circumstance which rendered it awkward to bring this subject before the House at

153
the present moment—he meant the returns, from the British consuls, of the prices of corn at different markets on the continent. They were so low, that he feared the circumstance would stagger the feelings of some gentlemen. But, it should be recollected, that for five or six years this country had not been open to the grain of the continent. There must, therefore, during that time, have been a great accumulation of corn; and it was no argument to say, because wheat was now at 20 s. the quarter, that it would not rise to 30 s. or 40 s. when the ports were opened, and a part of the superflux disposed of. If the landed gentlemen consulted their own interest, they would take the present time, when the manufacturing and mercantile system was in a course of revision, and when agriculture was well paid, to assist in the alteration of the Corn laws. The petitioners were most anxious that their sentiments should be laid before the House, previous to the discussion of this subject, on the motion of the hon. member for Bridgenorth. He feared that he had stated their opinions in an imperfect manner; but he hoped he had said enough to show, that the petitioners were not hostile to the landed proprietors; but that they merely wished to remove a system, which produced fraud and inconvenience, and for that purpose were desirous that a fixed rate of duty should be established.
Mr. Goochsaid, that the petition was certainly entitled to the attention of the House, as it came from a most respectable body of individuals. He should not, therefore, object to its being received; but, if any subject ought to be less tampered with than another, it was this very subject. He would ask, was there, before the hon. member for Bridgenorth gave notice of his motion, a single petition on the subject of the Corn laws? Did not every class of his majesty's subjects appear contented? Did not his majesty, in his gracious speech from the throne, declare that tranquillity and happiness reigned in every part of the country? If this was the case, he must call on the hon. member for Bridgenorth to state a much stronger case than he had yet made out, before he could assent to the intended alteration. He did not mean to say that the Corn laws did not want revision. The time might come when it would be necessary to revise them. But that time had not arrived. At present, corn was only kept up to a fair price.
154
He wished the hon. alderman and his friends in the city, had let this question alone. If interference were necessary, the country gentlemen could act for themselves. At present, he believed, the workmen in the city received greater wages than they ever did. They had nothing to do on Sundays and Mondays, but to stuff themselves with roast beef and plum-pudding. To talk of poverty in the city, was all a mere humbug. The agitation of this question had created a ferment throughout the country; and he had received many letters expressive of the great apprehensions that were entertained with respect to the proceedings of parliament. Individuals were afraid, if the system were altered, that they would be reduced to the same situation as that in which they were placed some years ago; and that they would be again borne down by the poor-rates. He would say to the country gentlemen, that they would be duller "than the fat weed that rots on Lethe's wharf," if they did not exert themselves on this occasion. He would ask of the right hon. gentleman, whether his majesty's government intended to make any proposition on this subject in the present session?
Mr. Huskissonsaid, that the hon. gentleman wished to know whether it was the intention of his majesty's government to propose any general measure of relief with respect to the state of the Corn laws in the present session, and he had no difficulty in stating to him in answer, that his majesty's government had no such intention. If it had been contemplated in the present session to introduce such a measure, he thought it would have been the duty of those to whom it was intrusted to have taken an earlier opportunity for bringing it forward. But, viewing all the circumstances connected with the present state of those laws, and all the considerations which were embraced in so extensive a subject, it would, he thought, take up much more time than was convenient, if he entered into any detail, until the question was fairly before them. He would himself suggest to parliament, at an early period of the next session, the propriety of entering on a general revision of the state of the laws for regulating the trade in corn between this and foreign countries. If the hon. member for Bridgenorth brought forward his motion on Thursday, he would have an opportunity of stating the reasons which had induced him and

155
his colleagues to adopt the opinion, that it was not desirable, in the present state of the session, to go into the inquiry. At the same time, he felt no difficulty in saying, that he had a proposition to submit to the House on a matter that was connected with this subject: he alluded to the wheat which was now shut up under bond. He thought it would be useful, even to that class of persons who objected to an alteration in the Corn laws, if that wheat, under certain regulations, were suffered to come into the market.
Mr. Heathcoteearnestly hoped, that the hon. member for Bridgenorth would not bring this question forward. The subject was now agitating the country in an alarming degree. Why should they go into this question now, when they were told that they would have it all over again next year?
Mr. Whitmoresaid, he was sorry it was not in his power to comply with the suggestion of the hon. gentleman. He was persuaded that considerable advantages would arise from the discussion of this very important subject; and therefore he should bring it forward on Thursday. So far from creating that degree of alarm which gentlemen declared had been produced by the notice on this subject, he felt a firm conviction that the statement he should make on the occasion would considerably allay any unpleasant feelings which existed at present. A few words had fallen from his right hon. friend, as to the late period of the session, which he held to be a reason for not bringing the subject before the House at present. That, however, was not his (Mr. Ws.) fault; as he had given notice of his motion at a very early period of the session. But it had been postponed on two different nights, to make way for the Roman Catholic Relief bill. He hoped the House would come to the discussion on Thursday, fully and firmly resolved to investigate it with that temper and coolness which he was persuaded it deserved.
Mr. Curwensaid, that, although he should not probably agree with the hon. member for Bridgenorth in his whole view of the subject, there was one point in which he would agree with him; and that was, in the conviction, that there was not a sufficient quantity of grain to serve the country until another harvest arrived. He was satisfied that they had been for some time consuming more in proportion than they grew. He was therefore favourable to inquiry.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonwished to know whether his right hon. friend meant to persevere in his intention of bringing in bills for the repeal of the duties on foreign manufactures? If he did, the present state of the Corn laws would, inevitably prevent our manufacturers from competing with those of foreign countries; particularly if protecting duties; were to be reduced from 60 to 10 and 15 per cent, as was contemplated.
Mr. Baringsaid, that the House and the Country could not possibly be placed in a more unpleasant situation than that in which it would assuredly be plunged by the course which government intended to take on this occasion. The hon. member for Suffolk had asked a question, as if he had a right not only to an answer, but to such an answer as he wished himself. The right hon. gentleman had said, in return, that the government would do nothing this year, but that they would, early in the next session enter into an examination of the whole subject of the Corn laws. Now this was the most disadvantageous step that could be taken. The hon. member for Boston had told them, that there was a considerable ferment in the county of Lincoln; and the course his majesty's ministers were about to adopt was calculated to produce a state of excitement throughout the entire country. Whilst this question remained undecided, no landlord could tell what his lease, what his agricultural property, was likely to be worth; for it was an undoubted fact, that the value of the lease depended on the scale c f protection which was extended to the growth of corn. In such a state of things, landed gentlemen could not make settlements and arrangements regarding their property. They could not tell what provision they might make for themselves, or for those who were to come after them. All this depended on what would be done to regulate the price of corn, When the right hon. gentleman said, that nothing would be done now, but that next year the question should be looked into, did he not perceive that, during all the intermediate period, he was keeping up a clashing of interests? It was saying, "You shall go through the whole year under a vicious system, which government intends to cure next year." The hon. member for Suffolk had admitted, that the law was most unsatisfactory; but then he said, "O you must do nothing with it."

157
He should like to hear from that hon. gentleman, why the present was not a proper time for considering this question. He should like to know why the country was to be kept in a state of alarm for a whole twelve-month. It did not become them, in the discharge of their duty, to sit there, and do nothing with this question until next year. He conceived that the protection afforded by the present law was too high. There ought to be a protection; but he objected both to the form and the amount of the present protection.
Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, that the meeting at which the petition was got up, had assembled at a very recent period. He could not, therefore, conceive how their proceedings could have disturbed the country. When so many measures were adopted in furtherance of the principles of free trade, it was fitting that an alteration should be made in the corn trade. The country would be placed in a most unfavourable situation, if, when the duties were lowered on foreign manufactures, the price of bread was continued at its present high rate. Under such circumstances, it would be impossible for England to compete with foreign countries.
Sir E. Knatchbullexpressed a hope, that the hon. member for Bridgenorth would see the expediency of putting off for the present the motion of which he had given notice. He deprecated any alteration in the existing laws, until the necessity of such alteration had been proved by the actual experience of some inconvenience. After the declarations which had been made by ministers, that it was not their intention to propose any alteration in the course of the present session, to procure the appointment of a committee would be altogether useless.
Lord Miltonsaid, that, as he had presented so many petitions to the House on both sides of this subject, he could not allow the opportunity to pass without making some remarks upon it. The petitions to which he alluded came from two classes of the people. One was, that of the landed proprietors, who wished for no alteration in the laws; the other was, the class comprising the manufacturers, who felt that the price of food was enhanced by the existing regulations, and who therefore wished them to be abrogated. The first class of petitioners complained, that they were just recovering from a state of great depression, and that
158
they required the protection which was now afforded them. The manufacturers, on the other hand, stated, that they were entitled to share the benefits which were at present exclusively enjoyed by the growers of corn. They urged, that, as the agriculturists had very lately received a considerable boon in the free exportation of wool, they were entitled to be relieved from the restrictions on the importation of corn. He expressed his regret at the decision which had been come to by his majesty's ministers to postpone for the present any alteration. He thought it was their duty to come to a decision on so important a subject at the earliest possible period. He perfectly agreed with the hon. member for Boston in thinking, that the country would be in a state of ferment and alarm; and he would ask whether it was right that such a state of things should continue until the next session, and, perhaps, until a general election took place? But, it was urged, that such a question should not be agitated, unless upon the most pressing necessity. He would ask, whether the price of the food of the people was not at all times a question of importance, and of pressing necessity? He would ask too, whether it was not better to discuss such a question at a time of general prosperity, than wait until additional protections were prayed for on the one hand, and petitions for cheap bread preferred on the other? At a period like the present, when the prosperity of the country was increasing, and when the minds of men were cool and undisturbed, it was, that a question of such vast national importance should be discussed. He hoped, therefore, that the hon. member for Bridgenorth would persevere in his motion; as he was sure that much advantage would be derived from discussion.
Mr. Wodehouseexpressed his dissent from the view which had been taken of this subject by the petitioners.
Mr. Frankland Lewissaid, that as for any idea which might be entertained of setting this subject at rest without a very full discussion, it was wholly out of the question. The matter was too important and too generally interesting to admit of any other mode of disposing of it. The law, as it existed, was bad, because it was placed upon a very inconvenient footing; and it was also wrong in two points; first, because the degree of protection was fixed in a depreciated currency, and it was

159
therefore impossible now to ascertain its just amount; and secondly because the returns were made in an incorrect manner. He was perfectly ready to admit, that although he had voted in the year 1815 for the law as it was then altered, he was now sorry that he had done so, being convinced that the alteration between a free importation on the one hand, and the entire exclusion of corn on the other, was a most injudicious and erroneous regulation. He thought, however, that it was highly preposterous, that his right hon. friend, whose attention was occupied with so many subjects of not less importance than this, should be called upon at once to come to a decision upon a topic which would require such deliberate discussion. It was far too mighty to be grasped by any individual, and could only be safely and satisfactorily treated by the united consideration of the government and legislature.
Mr. Calcraftthought, that ministers were bound to fix the earliest day for the decision of this important subject. His complaint against them was, first, that they had not done so; and, secondly, that they had not given the House timely intimation of their intention not to touch the question during the present session. He maintained that it was not too late to to enter into a revision of our Corn laws; and if it were, he agreed with his hon. friend, in thinking, that the session ought to be extended, in order to afford time for doing so. It was well known that the country was imposed upon by frauds in taking the averages, and that a remedy for the evil was loudly called for. He thought originally, and thought still, that the protecting duty was too high; but, notwithstanding this, and the great facility given to fraudulent returns of the prices, the right hon. gentleman was not inclined to go even so far as the averages. The course adopted by his majesty's ministers was, to say the leastof it, the most inconvenient that they could possibly have hit upon. The House and the country had a right to find fault with them for not having taken an earlier opportunity of making known their intentions on the subject. He hoped, at least as far as the averages were concerned, that ministers would consider their decision and immediately do something to correct the evils of the system.
Sir T. Lethbridgesaid, that the landed interest had nothing to do with the bring-
160
ing forward of this question at present. Since it had been agitated, considerable excitement had taken place in the country; and he thought that the right hon. gentleman ought to come forward with some measure, and take the subject out of the hands of his hon. friend. He never wished to see prices higher than they were at that moment, and should be happy to see the old principle of open ports and fixed duties again acted upon. There were at that moment 400,000 quarters of wheat in bond, which might be released with great benefit to the public. With respect to the amount of the duties, all he had to say was, that it was better they should be too high than too low? because it would then be easier to alter them.
Mr. Huskissonhoped that the House would allow him, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, to go beyond the strict limit of an explanation, The hon. member for Wareham had complained, that ministers had not given notice that it was not their intention to bring forward any measures regarding the Corn laws this session. Now, he appealed to the experience of every member who heard him, whether it was at all the custom for government to give notice, not only of what they did, but of what they did not intend to do. He had said, however, that it was not his intention to take up the subject until next year; he had made no secret of it, but had undisguisedly told every member who chose to ask him the question. Another hon. member had inquired, whether the hon. gentleman had given his notice in concurrence with the wishes of the ministers? That question had been already answered. The hon. member for Taunton had complained of the present state of the Corn laws, as if it had been now for the first time admitted that they ought not to be permanent. He would, however, take that opportunity of observing, that, so far from the present laws being permanent, it was expressly stated in this report of the committees, in 1821 and 1822, to be only a temporary arrangement. He felt obliged to throw himself on the candour of the House, in the situation in which he found himself. He had entered the House at the close of the speech of the hon. member for the city, and had scarcely heard one word of it, when the question had been put to him, out of which the present discussion had arisen. He had replied —and it was the

161
only reply he could make under such circumstances—that when the time for debating the subject should arrive, he would be ready to enter into it. At the same time, he did not hesitate to say, that he thought it would be impossible to come to any conclusion during the present session. The hon. member for Kent had said, that he wished no alteration to be made until some actual inconvenience had been felt. That, however, was begging the whole of the question; because, the very reason put forward by those who advocated an alteration in the law was the general inconvenience which had been experienced. He again appealed to the House, to give him credit for having weighed well the reasons which had induced him to withhold any proposal on the subject, and to wait until the motion of the hon. member for Bridgenorth should be before the House, when he intended to explain the operation of the change in the system of duties on the manufacturing interests, and the consequent effect which must be wrought in the corn laws. He should also be then prepared to state what it would be more easy to accomplish in the next session, with respect to those laws, and to show the expediency of adopting some protection, by means of duties, instead of the present objectionable alteration between a free trade in, and the entire exclusion of corn.
Mr. T. Wilsonexpressed his satisfaction at the last part of the right hon. gentleman's speech, though he thought he had been guilty of some little inconsistency with respect to the Corn-laws, as compared with his other commercial regulations.
Ordered to lie on the table.

MR. ROBERT GOURLAY.
Mr. Humepresented a Petition from the parish of Forfar, praying that a commission might be appointed to inquire into the case of Mr. Robert Gourlay. The petitioners were impressed, like many others, with an opinion, that Mr. Gourlay had been severely and unjustly treated.
Mr. Peelwished it to be understood, that Mr. Gourlay was not detained at the instigation of government. He was merely under the operation of the laws. If any person could be found to give security for his peaceable demeanour, he would not be detained one hour longer.
Mr. Broughamconcurred with the right hon. gentleman, but observed, that
162
owing to the solicitor for the Treasury having attended at Mr. Gourlay's examination at Bow-street, an opinion had got abroad, that he was detained at the instance of government. This he knew to be incorrect; and he wished it also to be understood, that he (Mr. B.) had in no way been the cause of the poor gentleman's being kept in prison, nor had he taken any one step to have him lodged there. He had had no quarrel with Mr. Gourlay, and the circumstances under which he had committed the outrage upon him (Mr. B.) were such, as, whatever opinion they might give him of the soundness of his intellect, could not create any anger towards the individual. The petition of which he spoke he had put into his ( Mr. B's) hand three or four years before, and it related to the education of the poor. Mr. Gourlay wished him to introduce upon that occasion a statement of his own case; and he, although it had nothing in the world to do with it, had complied, and had made that statement. When Mr. Gourlay committed the outrage upon him, he had said, "Let the dead bury the dead," alluding to the case of Mr. Smith, the missionary; and he had added,"If you can find time to attend to the affairs of a dead missionary, why do you not attend to mine?" He believed that Mr. Gourlay had experienced very harsh and unjust treatment in Canada. The learned gentleman concluded by declaring, that, as far as he was personally concerned, he had no objection to the liberation of the petitioner.
Mr. Peelsaid, that the petitioner was treated in the same way as any person who was detained under similar circumstances. He was originally detained for a breach of privilege in assaulting a member in the lobby of the House, in doing which he had declared that he was only imitating a high example—of scourging sinners out of the temple.
Mr. J. Williamssaid, that Mr. Gourlay had given him a petition to present to the House, in which he complained of the manner in which he was treated with regard to the food which was given him; but, at the same time, he spoke with the greatest respect of the magistrates, and particularly of the humane conduct of the govenor of the House of Correction.
Ordered to lie on the table.

COUNTY TRANSFER OF LAND BILL.
Mr. F. Palmermoved the second reading of this bill.
Mr. Peelcharacterized the bill, as a very important measure, and declared himelf in favour of its principle. He wished, however, the hon. member would, after it had been committed, allow it to stand over, to afford opportunity for local inquiry on the subject.
The Solicitor-Generalwas also of opinion, that the measure was one of considerable importance. The object of the bill was, to enable magistrates of counties to purchase isolated parcels of land which belonged to other counties from those in which they were naturally placed, and thus caused much inconvenience, with respect to the administration of justice, the collection of taxes, the raising of the militia, and other matters. There was, he believed, a piece of land of this description in Berkshire, which belonged to the county of Wilts, and there were many others in other parts of England. He was of opinion, that it would be intrusting magistrates with too great an authority, to enable them to determine what parts of counties, as at present existing, should be annexed to others. The principle of the bill was too important, and the details too complicated, to allow of its being carried into effect, except by a committee of the House of Commons.
Sir T. Aclandsaid, he was much interested in the measure; which he hoped the hon. member would withdraw for the present session.
The bill was then read a second time.

COURT OF CHANCERY.
Mr. J. Williamsbegged leave to ask the right hon. the Secretary for the Home Department, whether there was any prospect of the report of the commission appointed to inquire into the practice of the Court of Chancery being laid before the House?
Mr. Peelsaid, he was not prepared to give a satisfactory answer to the question. He could have no official communication with the commissioners until the report was made. As to the progress made in the inquiry, or the approximation towards the completion of the report, he really possessed no official information. He would advise the hon. member to address his inquiry to the hon. member for Exeter, or some other member of the commission.
Mr. Broughamexpressed his surprise, that the commission had not yet laid any information before the House, as to their proceedings; particularly as the Solicitor-
164
General had, some time ago, informed the House, that they might soon expect a "partial report," to use his own words, on the subject.
Mr. W. Courtenaysaid, it would be improper for him to attempt to fix any time at which the report of the commission would be made; but, this he would state most distinctly, that the commissioners had not been idle. There was, he could assure the House, no wish, on the part of any member of the commission, to create the least delay as to the presentation of the report. He believed he might say, that the report would be presented in the course of the session; but he would not be understood as pledged to that declaration. He was sure the House would see the propriety of his speaking thus guardedly, when they recollected, that the object of the commission was, to inquire into the practice which had existed for centuries in the highest court of judicature in the kingdom. Whatever his hon. and learned friend might think on the subject, the commissioners were of opinion, that no alteration should be made in the practice of that court, without full and deliberate discussion. The commissioners had reviewed the whole practice of the court from its very commencement; and before they could be prepared to recommend any improvement of the present system, they must take time to consider the subject deliberately.

ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.
His

139
Royal Highness the Duke Of York stated, that he had been requested to present to their lordships the petition of the dean and canons of Windsor, praying that no further concessions should be made to the Roman Catholics. He considered it unnecessary, in bringing before their lordships the petition of so learned and respectable a body, to assure them it was worded so as to ensure its reception; but, before he moved that it should be read he must be permitted to say a few words.
Sensible as his royal highness was of his want of habit and ability, to take a part in their lordships' debates, it was not without the greatest reluctance that he ventured to trespass upon their time and attention; but he felt that there were occasions when every man owed it to his country and to his station, to declare his sentiments; and no opportunity could, in his opinion, offer, which required more imperiously the frank avowal of them than the present, when their lordships were called upon to make a total change in the fundamental principle of the constitution, and, in his royal highness's view of the question, to strike at the very root of its existence.
His royal highness observed, that twenty-eight years had elapsed since this question had been first agitated, under the most awful circumstances, while this country was engaged in a most arduous and expensive, though just and glorious war; that the agitation of it had been the cause of a most serious and alarming illness to an illustrious personage now no more, whose exalted character and virtues, and whose parental affection for his people would render his memory ever dear to this country; that it had also produced the temporary retirement from his late majesty's councils of one of the most able, enlightened, and most honest statesmen of whom this country could boast.
Upon this question they were now called to decide; and from the first moment of its agitation to the present, his royal highness said, he had not for one instant hesitated, or felt a doubt, as to the propriety of the line of conduct he had adopted in reference to it.
That he must also call their lordships' attention to the great change of language and sentiments which had taken place since the subject was first introduced, among the advocates for Catholic emancipation.
140
That at first the most zealous of these had cautiously and yet strenuously endeavoured to impress upon the minds of the people that Catholic emancipation ought not to be granted without establishing strong and effectual barriers against any encroachment on the Protestant ascendancy. But, how changed was now their language! Their lordships were now required to surrender every principle of the constitution, and to deliver us up, bound hand and foot, to the mercy and generosity of the Roman Catholics, without any assurance even that they would be satisfied with such fearful concessions.
His royal highness said, he had, upon a former occasion, taken the liberty of stating his sentiments fully upon the subject, and had endeavoured to convey to their lordships that no person was more decidedly inclined to toleration than his late majesty, but that it mast be admitted there was a great difference between toleration, participation, and emancipation. He would not now enter into this discussion, convinced as he was that, if the bill should again be brought under their consideration, its merits would be much more ably discussed by others of their lordships. There were, however, one or two points which appeared to him to have been kept out of view in the different debates that had occurred in various places, and which seemed to him of such vital importance that he could not help touching upon them.
The first was, the situation in which the church of England would be placed should Catholic emancipation pass. If his royal highness were mistaken he would doubtless be set right; but, he had always understood that the established church of England stands in a very different situation from any other religious persuasion in the world; different ever from that of the Sectarians in this country. The established church was subject to its own government, and did not admit the interference of the civil authorities. It was placed under the authority of the king as the head of it, and under the control of parliament, so much so, that the church was not only not represented as a body in the lower House of parliament, but no clergyman was admittted to a seat in it.
Surely, their lordships could not wish to place the established church of England upon a worse footing than any other church within these realms: nor allow the Roman Catholics, who not only refused

141
to submit to our rules, but who denied any authority of the civil power over their church, to legislate for the established church; which must be the case if they should be admitted to seats in either House of parliament.
The other point to which his royal highness had to advert, was one which he felt to be of a more delicate nature. He must, therefore, begin by stating to their lordships, that he spoke only his own individual sentiments; as he must not be supposed to utter in that House the sentiments of any other person. He was sensible that, by what he was about to say, he should subject himself to the scoffs and jeers of some, and to the animadversions of others; but, from speaking conscientiously his own feelings and sentiments, he would by no apprehension whatever be appalled or deterred.
That he wished to ask whether their lordships had considered the situation in which they might place the king, or whether they recollected the oath which his majesty had taken at the altar, to his people, upon his coronation. He begged to read the words of that oath:—"I will, to the utmost of my power, maintain the laws of God, the true profession of the gospel, and the Protestant reformed religion established by law—and I will preserve unto the bishops and clergy of this realm, and to the churches committed to their charge, all such rights and privileges as by law do or shall appertain to them, or any of them,"
Their lordships must remember, that ours is a Protestant king, who knows no mental reservation, and whose situation is different from that of any other person in this country. That his royal highness and every other individual in this country could be released from his oath by the authority of parliament; but the king could not. The oath, as he had always understood, was a solemn obligation entered into by the person who took it, from which no act of his own could release him; but the king was the third part of the state, without whose voluntary consent no act of the legislature could be valid, and he could not relieve himself from the obligation of an oath.
His royal highness said, he feared that he had already trespassed too long upon their lordships, and he thanked them for the patience with which they had heard him. If he had expressed himself too warmly, especially in the latter part of
142
what he had said, he must appeal to their liberality. That he felt the subject most forcibly; and that it affected him yet more deeply, when he remembered that to its agitation must be ascribed that severe illness, and ten years of misery, which had clouded the existence of his illustrious and beloved father. That he should therefore conclude with assuring their lordships, that he had uttered his honest and conscientious sentiments, founded upon principles which he had imbibed from his earliest youth; to the justice of which he had subscribed, after serious consideration, when he attained more mature years; and that these were the principles to which he would adhere, and which he would maintain and act up to, to the latest moment of his existence, whatever might be his situation of life—So help him God!
Ordered to lie on the table.

CORN LAWS.
The Marquis Camdenpresented a petition from several Land-owners and Land-occupiers, against any alteration of the Corn Laws. The subject, he said, was one involving very important interests, and required that their lordships should proceed with great caution.
The Earl of Lauderdale,seeing the noble earl opposite in his place, rose to ask what were the intentions of his majesty's government on this subject? He did not mean to enter, in the smallest degree, into the general question; but he could assure their lordships, that there prevailed a great degree of agitation on the subject; and as long as the question was left open, numerous petitions would be sent to their lordships. Not only the agriculturists and the manufacturers were interested in it, but the monied men in the City, as every body must know who attended to the state of the exchanges, were affected by this question being kept open. He, therefore, hoped the noble earl would state whether his majesty's ministers meant to propose any alteration in the corn laws during the present session.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he had no objection to give as satisfactory an answer as possible, to the question of the noble earl. At the same time, he could not, consistently with the importance of the subject, and the duty which he owed to the public, answer the question of the noble earl without troubling their lordships with a few observations. Their lordships were aware, that the last time

143
the subject was brought under consideration, was in the year 1822. At that time the parliament did not adhere to the system of 1815: some alteration was made; and it appeared from the report of the committee of the House of Commons, that it was in the contemplation of the committee to recommend a further alteration in the whole system of the corn laws. Thus the question stood at the beginning of this session, and now stands, subject, however, to a small qualification which he should hereafter mention. He had no difficulty in stating to their lordships, what he had previously stated in private, that, in his opinion, some alteration ought to be made in the general system of the corn laws; he thought, however, that it would not be expedient to make that alteration during the present session. He said this present session, because it was probable that, in the next session, it would be found necessary to take up this great and important question in all its bearings.— There were some points to which he would briefly allude, in order to show their lordships, that enlarged inquiry and considerable discussion would be necessary, before they could hope to settle the question on any sure and proper grounds. Their lordships all knew the difference of opinion which prevailed on this subject; and no one knew it better than his noble friend who had put the question. If the country were allowed to remain in any uncertainty, their lordships' table would be crowded with petitions. Petitions would come from one large and respectable body, praying for an alteration, which would have the effect of lowering prices; and there would also be petitions from another class equally respectable, against any measure which might have a tendency to produce any such effect. Their lordships must not conceal from themselves the truth, though it was clear to every enlarged view, that no statesman could doubt, that all the interests of a state were closely combined, and that whatever promoted the welfare and prosperity of one, also ultimately promoted the welfare and prosperity of others. Still, those who would come to their lordships with petitions on this subject, did not take this comprehensive view. On this question there was one branch of the great and leading interests of the country, which always endeavoured to prevent the price from falling too low; while there was another branch which always wished to keep
144
the price as low as possible. No statesman could overlook this difference of opinion, or perhaps condemn the persons who entertained these different opinions; but, it was his duty to attend equally to all the great interests of the country. On this important question he had had many communications from more than one quarter: he had heard numerous doctrines about free trade; but, in the course of all the discussions of this question which had fallen under his notice, its true difficulties were never fairly considered. He hoped and believed that their lordships would give him credit for saying, that no man could be more desirous than he was, to see the trade of the country placed on the most liberal footing; but, when commercial principles were applied to corn, obstacles arose which were not easily overcome. In all other kinds of manufacture, if a fixed protecting duty were imposed, it would be easy to abide by it. Whatever might be the state of the home supply at a particular time, things would at length come round, and the manufacture would find its level. But, it was not so with respect to corn; because, at however equitable a rate the duty might be fixed, still periods and seasons might occur, in which no protecting duty whatever could be adhered to. In a time of great scarcity it could not be said to a starving population, that they should pay any thing in addition to the natural price of corn. He threw out these observations merely to show, that there was a great difficulty belonging to this question; but, he was perfectly satisfied that their lordships must proceed to its consideration, with the view of making some alteration in the present system. This, he thought, would appear to be called for on several grounds. The price of corn in this country was now nearly double what it was in 1815, when the present system was fixed. The argument used in making that arrangement was, that it was necessary to raise the price, in order to secure a reasonable profit on cultivation. This appeared to be by no means necessary now, with 80 s. for the importation price. He felt, however, that he should not be rightly discharging his duty, if he ventured to give any opinion as to what ought to be the duty, or import price. Next session an opportunity would be afforded their lordships for a full consideration of the subject. In the mean time, he should only state what appeared to him to be the different principles on

145
which their lordships would have to decide. He had stated, that the present system could not be maintained—that was to say, with respect to the importation price—in consequence of the effect which it had on the value of labour. Their lordships would, therefore, have to proceed on one of three principles. First; they might alter the importation price, and in other respects retain the system. Secondly; they might alter the existing system altogether, and, adopting the recommendation of the committee of 1822, impose protecting duties with a maximum, beyond which importation should be perfectly free, and a minimum, under which no importation should be allowed. Thirdly; a general protecting duty might be fixed, getting rid of the present system of averages. Either of these latter plans would form a complete alteration in the present state of the Corn laws; but, the last mode could not be resorted to, without placing somewhere a discretionary power to remove the duty altogether in a time of scarcity. Much difficulty would be found in establishing a maximum or minimum along with a fixed protecting duty. If, therefore, a fixed duty should be rejected, their lordships would have the option, either of adhering to the present system with an alteration of the import price, or establishing a system of protecting duties with a maximum and minimum; or else of taking a maximum and minimum without any protecting duty. He knew not whether he had made himself intelligible; but, he thought it right to lay before the House the different systems which it was likely their lordships would have to discuss. He must again repeat, that it was not his intention to propose any alteration in the Corn laws during the present session. He did not know, however, but that one particular part of the present system might sooner be brought under their lordships' consideration; he meant the question relating to the bonded corn winch had been and still was in warehouses. That question had already undergone some alteration with respect to Canada corn. With regard to the other bonded corn, those members of the landed interest whom he had consulted on the subject were favourable to the contemplated alteration. As to the general question, he certainly could not think it right to enter on its consideration at that late period of the session; but, aware that it must in due time come
146
under consideration, he was anxious to put the House in possession of his views and feelings on the subject.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he had a petition to present from the city of London, praying for a revision of the Corn laws, which he should submit to their lordships to-morrow. He concurred in much of what had fallen from the noble earl opposite; at the same time, he must observe, that the result of much deliberate and serious reflection on this subject had brought him to the conclusion, that it would be ultimately impossible for parliament to continue a system of restrictive Corn laws. It would, therefore, be the duty of parliament to look forward to the doing away of the system altogether. He agreed with the noble earl, as to the difficulty of fixing a duty which would not be found very inconvenient in periods of scarcity or abundance; but, at the same time, he regarded such a plan as the best calculated to prevent scarcity. While, however, he entertained this opinion as to a fixed duty, he was far from regarding parliament to be now in a situation to determine the average price, which would afford a sufficient guarantee to the British cultivator, and next the average rate of productiveness on the continent. He was sure that most erroneous notions prevailed as to the average cost and price of agricultural produce on the continent, and that there was great difficulty in determining what it was likely to be, in such a way as to enable their lordships accurately to fix a rate of duty. In coming to a determination, it would be their lordships' duty to endeavour to conciliate all the interests in the country, and to take care that the balance should not incline too much to the one side or the other. Their great object should be, to arrive at something fixed and permanent; for, bad as the present system was, he would rather retain it with all its faults, than change it for one still liable to fluctuation. It was obvious that if too high a price were fixed, the manufacturing interest would have just reason to complain of the dearness of provisions, which must raise the price of every kind of labour. If the price were fixed too low, the landed interest would he injured, and with it, as recent events had most strikingly proved, every other interest in the country would be seriously affected. Their lordships would then be assailed with a clamour, and parliament would be again compelled to raise the

147
price. On these grounds, he thought he could not too strongly impress on their lordships, the necessity of considering this important subject in all its bearings; and, in their revision of the present system, of looking to the establishment of a permanent law, which would be capable of conciliating the interests of all the different classes of the empire.
The Earl of Lauderdalethanked the noble earl for the exposition he had given of his views on the Corn laws. It was not his intention then to deliver any opinion, as to any particular plan which it might be proper for parliament to adopt; but, he must remind their lordships, that while they were considering the subject, speculation would be at work. It was therefore necessary to delay their determination as little as possible, and to make the new system one of more certainty than the present. A fixed and permanent arrangement ought to be adopted, suited to a time of peace. The noble earl had stated, that under the present system, corn was in this country twice the price at which it was sold for on the continent; but, he should recollect, that when the last arrangement was made, the agriculturists were told that 80 s. was to be the minimum. Their complaint, however, was, that the price had never reached 80 s. However, during the existence of the arrangement, bread had never been at an unreasonable price. If it were intended to come at last to a permanent arrangement, he did not conceive that the task could be accomplished, without a most laborious inquiry, not only into the state of agriculture in this country, but into its relative situation in the other parts of Europe. When their lordships considered that the present system, under various modifications, was the same which had endured for more than a century, they could not be too cautious in departing entirely from it. He did not say that it was perfect; but, it was one under which the agriculture of this country had long flourished. On this ground, he dreaded alteration. He dreaded it, because, if any change was to be, it ought to be to a permanent system, which was difficult; and, because the situation of the landed interest was different from that of any other. Capital was embarked on land under leases of twenty-one years, and the value of that capital would be instantly affected by any alteration of the law. All he should say at present was, that he hoped
148
the inquiry would be extensive, and that the discussion would be conducted with liberality.
The Earl of Liverpoolwished to make one observation more, in consequence of what had fallen from the noble lords opposite. He fully agreed with them in the importance of a careful investigation, and that if a change of system were made, it should be one of as permanent a nature as possible. But, if they were to look to the price of grain in this country and abroad, they would find that nothing could be of a more varying nature. To be convinced of this, they had only to refer to the prices of the last thirty years. The different rate of taxation in this and other countries necessarily caused a great difference of price, and rendered it difficult to come to a decision on the question of duty. The variation in the weight of the taxation, too, from seventy to forty millions, was a cause of fluctuation. Prussia, Poland, and other countries, from which foreign corn was usually imported, were all poor; but, as they increased in wealth and civilization, their power of supplying us would become less. These were all circumstances hostile to that permanency which was so desirable. Their lordships would have to consider, whether they would adhere to the present system, or adopt one of protecting or fixed duties; but, in whatever way they might proceed, it appeared to him, that they never could expect to obtain that certainty which would enable them to fix an unalterable price.
Lord Kingsaid, he wished a determination to be come to on this subject as speedily as possible; for, in consequence of the agitation of the question, bargains between individuals must be at a stand, until a settlement took place. He was glad that the noble earl opposite was to call the attention of parliament to the subject; and he hoped that an understanding would be brought about between the landed interest and the manufacturers. Wheat in some of the continental ports was 18 s.; but, if the market was opened in this country, it would rapidly rise perhaps to 56 s. or 60 s.; but, whatever might be the present price, great difficulty would be experienced in founding on it a fixed rate for importation. One great inconvenience of a high rate was, that when the ports were suddenly thrown open, an immense importation took place. Some measure ought to be adopted, to restrain

149
the excessive importation which took place in such cases.
The Earl of Rosslynhoped, that nothing would be done in this matter without a complete inquiry, and without having the whole subject sifted to the bottom. The burthen of proving the necessity of change lay upon those who proposed to alter the present system. As the change would affect the state of every contract throughout the country, the intended investigation would require great caution and delicacy.
Lord Calthorpe,after expressing his opinion in favour of the proposed investigation, presented a petition from the Chamber of Commerce of Birmingham, praying for a revision of the Corn laws.
The Earl of Darnleywas glad to hear that this important subject was to be inquired into. He always regarded the landed and commercial classes of the country as hiving one common interest. Of this he was certain, that if the landed interest was injured by any change in the corn laws, the British manufacturers would lose their best customers. He approved of the plan of coming to no decision until next session.