Sitting of 31 May 1824

ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS—PETITION OF CATHOLICS OF IRELAND.
Mr. Plunkettrose to present a petition, from the "undersigned" Roman Catholics of Ireland, praying for relief from the penal laws which still oppressed them. He begged to state, in presenting this petition, that he entirely concurred in its contents, with the exception of one single paragraph or observation. The petition was, with the exception of the passage to which he had alluded, drawn up with temper and propriety. It stated truly, that the petitioners were not now under the necessity of making a parade of their attachment to the constitution, or their
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loyalty, for those were already known. They further stated, that they should never forget the grace and kindness shown to Ireland by his majesty, during his late visit, and the benevolent effort he had made for the extinction of the party differences which had so long convulsed their country. If the royal intentions, they added, had been frustrated, it was not by any act of the Catholics, but by their enemies, and that they had held the royal injunction sacred, until their priesthood and their religion had been opprobriously assailed "by the highest dignitaries of the church established by law." This was the passage which he wished had not been inserted in the petition; for it was calculated to introduce an angry and recriminatory feeling into their question, which was calculated to mar its progress, which, in his judgment, materially depended upon the discussion being divested of every irritable, and above all of every polemical topic. The petitioners appealed to the events of the last two years, to show that there could be no peace in Ireland, as long as the great preponderating portion of the people were shut out by the minority from the enjoyment of those civil rights to which both were equally entitled. They pointed out the injurious and galling effects which had sprung from this monopoly of power—the expense it entailed upon England—the poverty and insubordination which it perpetuated in Ireland, —and they praised the administration of the marquis Wellesley for its equity and mildness. They respectfully submitted to the House, whether the time had not arrived when, instead of coercion and exclusion, a middle course ought to be pursued by the legislature towards Ireland, and declared the enthusiastic gratitude with which they should hail so wise and salutary a change in the policy of the government. He begged particularly to be understood as presenting a petition from the "undersigned" Catholics, he believed 1800 in number, and from the "undersigned" only. In doing so, he disclaimed being under the control of any body of petitioners, or connected with any party of them in Ireland. He was peculiarly anxious to have this particularly understood. In presenting this petition, he wished to state further, that he did not contemplate any ulterior motion upon it in the present session. He had always, in the discussions upon this question, reserved to himself the right of judging

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when he should found upon the petition of the Catholics a motion for further proceedings; and, in abstaining, in the present session, from founding any such motion upon the petition, he was gratified to find that he acted in coincidence with the opinions of his oldest and best friends of the Catholics, who concurred with him in thinking, that any motion now would be unavailing and hopeless. When he could not advance their question, he certainly should, in the exercise of their judgment, refrain from taking any step which could do no good. He still retained unaltered every opinion he had formed upon the Catholic question: those opinions had been formed according to the best dictates of his judgment, upon very mature deliberation, and after the most unprejudiced view of the whole subject. He had no motive to prompt them, but a sense of justice and sound policy. Prejudice entered not into his consideration for if he had any, it would have applied the other way. He had reflected upon and examined, over and over again, these opinions; and looking at the state of Ireland, at the state of England, and at the state of Europe, he saw every where reasons for the more deep confirmation of his opinion, not only of the justice and of the importance, but of the urgency of this act of concession, and that every hour of delay which it encountered was calculated to diminish its chance of ensuring tranquillity and peace [hear, hear]. Of this also he was most positively convinced—that whatever temporary obstacles were in the way of this cause, its advancement and ultimate success could not be prevented, and that onward to its final consummation it must proceed with unerring force.
Ordered to lie on the table.

ROMAN CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION—PETITION FROM IRELAND AGAINST.
Mr. Brownlow, in rising to present a petition, respecting the Roman Catholic Association of Dublin, said, that the subject, on which he had to address the House, was as well entitled to mature consideration, as any subject that had been brought before the House during the present session. He hoped, also, that it would attract the attention of his majesty's ministers—not an attention which produced a speech or two, soon uttered and soon forgotten, but an attention which would lead to the fearless and impartial
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exercise of the powers entrusted to them for the preservation of the peace of Ireland, or to their calling, if necessary, for stronger powers from Parliament. He was authorized by a gentleman of the highest respectability, to state, that the petition had been most carefully prepared; that the petitioners were freeholders at the time assembled in Dublin; and he was assured that if it had been exposed but one day it would have received thousands of signatures. But, if there was but one name attached to it, it would bespeak attention, from the importance of the truths it announced, and the magnitude of the evils it exposed. The petitioners stated, that they hoped to see their country restored to the blessings of peace and harmony. They represented, and he agreed with them, that the internal peace and harmony of Ireland was inconsistent with the existence of this Catholic Association. The petitioners stated, that they found, if not the full cause, at least one essential cause, of the present distentions in Ireland, and that was, the Catholic Association now sitting in a form almost parliamentary in the Irish metropolis. He said, almost parliamentary, for they held their regular sessions, nominated their committees, received petitions, referred them to their committee of grievance, ordered a census of the population to be taken, and had actually proceeded to do that which the House of Commons was alone the constitutional organ of imposing; namely, to levy a tax upon the nation. They assessed the cities, towns, and even parishes, appointing collectors in every district, for the receipt of a tax which they called "Catholic Rent." For what purposes this fund was raised was, in part, left in obscurity; but the objects which were avowed, were not calculated to throw a favourable light on those which were left behind. The first alleged purpose was, the supply of a Catholic priesthood to America; the next, to supply a Catholic priesthood to England. The Catholics in England, they said, had multiplied almost beyond their hopes. The emigration, in consequence of the French revolution, had, for a time, supplied England with a priesthood, but now that source had ceased, it would well become the charity of the people of Ireland to step in to the aid of their haughty neighbours. The next avowed purpose of the tax was to buy up such part of the independent press, as should propa-

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gate opinions obnoxious to this self-constituted legislature. He would put it to any man who knew the state of Ireland, and the disposition of its inhabitants, whether such a focus of inflammation could with safety be allowed to exist in that country? The Irish were not a cold and phlegmatic people, but like touchwood, liable to ignition upon the application of that inflammable matter which this association was weekly disseminating amongst them. If in England, where the people were less liable to inflammation, the government felt it necessary, during a period of momentary distress, to put down the factious demagogues who excited them to mischief, it was surely not unreasonable for those who were anxious to preserve the peace of Ireland, to expect that a similar step would be taken to extinguish the peculiar spirit of discord, which, in the very centre of Dublin, was raised and upheld, for the dissemination of every species of calumny and misrepresentation, and for holding out to a heated and feverish people, as direct a provocation to resort to arms for a redress of grievances as designing men could give, with sufficient cunning for the preservation of their own personal safety. Was it nothing, that the government should suffer such a body to exist under its own eye, and to proceed upon an organized plan of calumny and defamation against all whom they deemed their opponents? To such an extent had they carried this system, that the archbishop of Dublin could hardly quit his house, without being exposed to popular insult, in consequence of the calumnies which had been circulated against him. Again as long as the Catholic Association was permitted to sit in Dublin, the members of that House in vain renewed their request each session, for freedom of speech in parliament. He would not complain of any fair discussion out of doors of what was said in parliament; but, if any man in that House expressed sentiments opposed to the views of the Catholic Association, he was made the object of their calumny; and a man must possess more than the ordinary nerve and contempt for popular opinion than was expected in a country like this, before he could be called upon to expose himself to such a tide of calumny. It was said, that this association met for the purpose of petitioning. He believed they met for no such purpose; the Catholics of Ireland wanted no assistants to prepare their pe-
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titions, almost every peasant in Ireland could draw such a petition up, as well as a statesman, and he had never heard of any of their petitions failing from inaccuracy in the recital of the grievance. But, the fact was, that this Catholic Association, though it assembled last January, and met on successive occasions since, for the dissemination of licentious harangues, had always adjourned without preparing petitions. He believed the real object was, not to petition, but by a bold and menacing tone, and by the exhibition of numbers at their backs, to coerce the legislature into any measures they chose to dictate. All these proceedings, if they did not amount to treason, were only separated from it by a very thin partition. It was a great aggravation of the complaint against this association, that their conduct tended to diminish the value of the right of petitioning. The tumultuous exercise of this right had often been made the plea, not only of casting off the excess, but of bringing the original right into jeopardy. Those who did so, were not the friends of the right in general; and the respectable part of the Catholics of Ireland had a right to call out to be relieved from their most injurious advocates. The great evil of these societies was, that they were too prone to forget the original object of their institution; moderation and good sense were kicked out of doors, and those whose talents and stations entitled them to take a lead, were overborne by factious demagogues and ignorant upstarts. They had departed from their original object, and left all decorum behind them. They had outraged the feelings of every Protestant in Ireland, and scandalized all the loyal and respectable Roman Catholics. The great body of the respectable Catholics had great cause to complain of being mixed up and confounded with men, whose only title to confidence was, that they had just talent enough to cheat the law; and with respect to the great question of Catholic Emancipation, he was persuaded they cared not one pin about it, provided they could administer to their own vanity and ambition; to gratify the one and promote the other, they would not hesitate to endanger the peace of Ireland or defeat that cause, of which they pretended to be the advocates. Now, he had been asked over and over again, how it was that the attorney general for Ireland, who had some time ago wielded his thunders with

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such alacrity, did not interfere, and particularly when it was said that those who produced so much agitation plumed themselves (falsely no doubt) upon the hope that they had some place of safety under his protection? They supposed that they did not come within the reach of any enactment of law: it was thought by them that they did not come within the 33rd Geo. 3rd, because they did not set themselves up as the representatives of the people: they did not come within the six acts, because they did not extend to any societies but those which were held out of doors; and because they had no corresponding secretaries. They had secretaries in all the different parishes in Ireland, but then they did not correspond; and therefore they hoped that their society did not come within the scope of the law. Upon that subject he did not feel himself competent to give an opinion; but he could not help thinking, that if the attorney-general was as desirous to come at these men as he was at the bottle-throwers at the theatre, some means would be found to do so. Sure he was, that it was at variance with all law and all principles of government, that a body of men should exist exercising the power of taxing the people distinct from that assembly which was recognized by the law of the land. The question then was, which was to be supreme, the parliament of England, or the Catholic Association? He therefore called upon the House to provide a remedy for the situation in which they now stood. In making this call, he could not be charged with inconsistency, for in the course of the present session he had used strong language on the danger to be apprehended from all parades and processions of all descriptions in Ireland. He was himself a member of the Orange Society, and was ready to bear any blame that might be cast upon him on that account. He believed that the principles of the Orange Societies were most just, praiseworthy, and constitutional. They were the same principles which set in motion the great whig families in the cause of the Revolution, and which would render their services honoured as long as the bill of rights should be preserved. What he had before said, and would now repeat, was, that when Orange or Catholic processions took place and endangered the lives of his majesty's subjects, the law should be rigorously and impartially enforced against all persons, without regard
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to principles and opinions. He did not wish to deal with opinions, but only with overt acts. He trusted that he had said enough to satisfy every dispassionate man, that the Catholic Association was calculated to keep alive much exasperation in Ireland. It had originally been his intention, to have moved that the petition be referred to the committee now sitting on the subject of the disturbed districts of Ireland, but he found that he was prevented from taking that course by the forms of the House.
Mr. Plunkettsaid, that the hon. member had more than insinuated, that a strong feeling was entertained that he (Mr. P.) had neglected his duty; he did not at all seem to think there was any imperfection in the law, but had expressed his astonishment, that those who had proceeded against the bottle-throwers at the theatre had left untouched the Catholic Association. Now, he could assure the hon. member, that any apprehensions which might be entertained, either by the hon. member himself or his friends, could not induce him to change that course of conduct which he had uniformly endeavoured to pursue, in the discharge of his duty. In every instance in which he had exercised his official powers, as attorney-general for Ireland, he had looked straightforward to his object, without any consideration as to sect or party. Whenever he had perceived a violation of the law which the public interest required to be prosecuted, he had fearlessly come forward to undertake the prosecution. Whether a candid construction had always been put upon his motives, it was for the House to judge. All that he would say was, that the same course which he had hitherto pursued he would still continue to pursue. He would pursue no left-handed justice; but he would, so far as the laws would enable him, whenever he met with a transgression of the law, from whatever party it might proceed, immediately visit it with punishment. The hon. member had professed himself, not only a vindicator, but a member of the Orange Association. He could assure the hon. member, that if he were furnished with satisfactory evidence, he would not be found backward in trying the strength of the law against a gentleman making that profession, and he would abide the consequences of the censure of those respectable persons, who blamed him for not prosecuting the Catholic Association. Neither the hon. member nor any other

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person in that House could be more convinced than he was of the necessity of closely attending to the proceedings of that body; but he did not feel called upon to make any declaration, as to whether it was within the reach of the law or not, or whether it was the intention of government to adopt any measures on the subject. He should, indeed, be unworthy the confidence of those with whom he acted, if he suffered any such declaration to be drawn from him, in consequence of what had fallen from the hon. member. He should not take the trouble to inquire why the hon. member was so anxious that he should proceed against the Catholic Association; but he was rather surprised that the hon. member had not taken the trouble to make some inquiry respecting the legality of other societies. The hon. member said, that he had a right to call upon parliament to put down the Catholic Association, because he had blamed the Orange processions. Did the hon. member, after having professed himself to be a member of the Orange society —and it was the first time that a member of that House had ventured to make such a profession, think that he had done enough when he blamed the proceedings which emanated from the society, leaving the society itself uncensured? Did the hon. member think that he had discharged his duty, because, having entered into an unlawful association, the object of which was to overstep the pale of the laws, and to overawe and control the government, he discountenanced the murders and assassinations which resulted from it? If men of high birth, talent, and character in the country, condescended to associate themselves in clubs with the lowest dregs of the community, they would find it impossible, when the hour of danger arrived, to stop the mischief which must naturally result from such a state of things. He thought it would be more judicious in the hon. member to reserve some of the advice, which he seemed anxious to bestow upon him (Mr. P.), for himself and his friends.
Mr. M. Fitzgeraldsaid, it was matter of notoriety, that at the period of the king's visit to Ireland, whatever might be the provocation received, the Catholics had come to a resolution to bury their animosities in oblivion. In that resolution they persevered for two years; and if they had subsequently abandoned this pacific disposition, it had been with a view of opposing an assumed attitude of defence on the part of their opponents. Under
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these circumstances, he trusted the House would not adopt the sentiments contained in the petition, or resort to any measures inconsistent with the spirit of impartiality.
Sir T. Lethbridgethought, that the petition deserved the minutest attention. It had been said, that the Orangemen had provoked the conduct of the Catholic Association; but the things complained of would never have occurred but for that association. Had they ever heard, on the part of the Orangemen, any of the overt acts now committing by the Catholic Association?
Mr. Hutchinsonsaid, he had heard the remarks of the attorney-general for Ireland with infinite satisfaction, and hoped that they had met with the approbation of all his colleagues. He trusted that ministers, individually and collectively, were determined to administer impartial justice in Ireland.
Colonel Trenchsaid, that whatever might be the intentions of the Catholic Association, the consequences of their proceedings had been most disastrous. He had looked into the proceedings of this self-constituted parliament, under the influence of its protector, O'Connell, and he found that a most insidious proposition had been issued, calling upon all parties to give their assistance in the collection of tithes in kind. Now, the construction which he put upon this proposition was, that its object was to prevent any diminution of that acrimonious feeling which existed on the subject of tithes. No man would be more happy than he should, that the Catholic clergy should have an adequate provision; but it was impossible to deny that the object of the association was, to establish Catholic supremacy. Even in that House he had heard it laid down as a principle, that the religion of a country should be regulated by the creed of the majority of the people. He firmly believed that there were men among the Irish Catholics, actuated solely by selfish views, and anxious, in order that those views might be gratified, to keep the country in constant disturbance.
Mr. Warredeclared that the Catholic population were by no means indifferent to Catholic emancipation. Of the association he would say nothing, but that he wished to see the cause of emancipation in other hands, and regretted that Catholics of birth, character, and influence, did not unite to place the cause under their own guidance.
Mr. Brownlowexpressed his astonishment that, on a question so important as the present, not one of his majesty's ministers had condescended to state whether or not he considered the association legal. All that the attorney-general had said was, that he was quite ready to use any information which he might obtain against him (Mr. B.) if he could establish that he belonged to an Orange association. He was ready to give the right hon. gentleman every information he might require respecting the Orange associations. They were composed of men of known principles, of great talents, and who had performed eminent services to their country, notwithstanding the cloud which, on every occasion, it was attempted to throw over them. But, the question before the House was, the character of the Catholic Association; and on that question not one of his majesty's ministers had thought proper to speak.
Mr. Plunkettthrew himself on the candour and fairness of the House, if any hon. member had a right so to press an individual holding the situation of public prosecutor. The hon. gentleman himself had said, that he was not sure that the Catholic Association, although violating the spirit, was not at the same time, cheating the letter of the law. Suppose he (Mr. P.) were of the same opinion— was he to state it in that House? or was he to declare, that, although their proceedings did not bring them within the letter of the law, he would nevertheless prosecute them? Would that be wise? He had no difficulty in declaring it as his opinion, that the Catholic Association should be narrowly watched; and if he once saw his way clearly in point of law, and in point of prudence, he would not shrink from his task. He certainly thought that the intemperance and folly of the association were more calculated indefinitely to postpone the success of the Catholic cause, than all the efforts of the most bitter enemies of the cause. Still, however, he must remonstrate against being unfairly pressed on the subject. He would not say whether the proceedings of the association were legal or illegal, but would reserve to himself the full exercise of his own discretion on the subject.
Mr. Secretary Canningsaid, he came down expecting that the hon. member would follow up his motion for laying the petition on the table, by another motion, to refer it to the consideration of a com-
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mittee; on which latter motion he (Mr. C.) would have been ready to give his opinion. But, the hon. member had no right, merely on presenting a petition, to call on the members of government to express their opinions on some of the most important concerns of the empire. Such a proceeding he held to be most inconvenient. If ministers addressed to the House any opinions coming within the range of their functions, those opinions were entitled to be received with respect; but, he (Mr. C.) claimed no respect for any legal opinion of his. If the hon. member asked for his legal opinion on any subject, he would reply, that it was his duty to take the opinion of his majesty's legal advisers. The fact was, that it was most difficult for government to act with sound discretion in cases where free institutions, and all that grew out of free institutions, proceeded to any excess. la all such cases, a prudent government would consider, whether more danger might not result from checking the mischief, than from allowing it to run out and expend itself. The first question which a government had to ask was, whether it had a right to interfere; the second, whether it was probable that interference would be attended with good effect. Nothing could be more injurious than impotent interference. For government, under such circumstances as he had adverted to, to come out of court defeated, was always injurious. The present was not so naked a question as the hon. gentleman appeared to consider it. It did not follow, that where any proceeding was of a nature justly to call for disapprobation, and there existed no law to put a stop to such a proceeding, that it was always wise to create a law for the purpose. A question of that nature must always be looked at with discretion, almost with timidity; lest a greater mischief should be produced than that which already existed. The degree of the existing mischief, the importance of putting an end to it, the probability of its duration, all circumstances ought to be taken into the account. Such were the circumstances which might have been inquired into, if the hon. member had moved to refer the petition to a committee above stairs. But on such a motion as the present, he held it, to be no part of his duty to state what he conceived, as to the applicability of the existing law. He had, however, no difficulty in saying, that all such irregular institutions were ge-

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nerally mischievous, and, above all, to the particular cause which they professed to support. Anxious for the ultimate succes of the cause in question, and most sincerely wishing well to the peace of Ireland, he deeply lamented to see so many elements of irritation. He trusted that they would expire. But he would not be tempted, under the present circumstances, to say whether government thought the existing law sufficient for their suppression, or were prepared to propose any new measure for that purpose. Mr. Secretary Feel said, he had been firmly persuaded, after the notice which his hon. friend had given, that he would have moved to refer the petition to a committee above stairs; and until that motion, he thought it would be premature to state his opinions on the subject. It was not until his hon. friend's second speech, that he was aware that his hon. friend had abandoned his intended motion. As to the legality of the Catholic Association, that was a point on which he would then abstain from saying any thing.
Mr. M. Fitzgeralddefended the character of the members of the Catholic Association. Than Mr. O'Connell a more able, zealous, and effective advocate never lived. He was a gentleman of large property, and therefore by no means interested in promoting the agitation of the public mind in Ireland. The learned individual in question was most enthusiastic in his character; perhaps somewhat indiscreet; but it was an indiscretion that was surely not censurable.
Colonel Trenchregretted having mentioned the name of Mr. O'Connell, but he did not retract one syllable of the observations which he had made on the character of the Catholic Association. If the Catholics were not so much under influence, and so capable of being worked up to the commission of the most atrocious crimes, he should not be averse to what was called their emancipation. But, when he saw that a set of artful, cunning unprincipled demagogues endeavoured by every species of craft and fraud, to inflame the Catholics of Ireland, and excite in their minds a hatred of the Protestants and of English connexion, he could not concur in any such proposition.
Mr. Brownlowsaid, that he would withdraw his motion to refer the petition to a committee to-night, and give notice of the same motion for to-morrow.
Ordered to be printed.

ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS—PETITION OF CATHOLICS OF IRELAND.
Mr. Broughamsaid, he rose to present a petition from a great number of individuals of the Roman Catholic persuasion in Ireland. That body formed a large class of his majesty's subjects in Ireland, a class much to be respected, not only for its great and still increasing numbers, but on other accounts; and on no account more than for that unshaken confidence which they had always reposed in parliament, notwithstanding it had so frequently defeated their hopes, and withered their expectations. As he differed from the petitioners in some of the points of the petition, he should use no other language but the very terms of the petition itself. The petitioners began by expressing their gratitude for a disposition which they thought prevailed in parliament to redress their wrongs. They next expressed their regret on a subject on which he certainly did not agree with them. They expressed their regret that the act of Union between the two countries had ever been adopted. At the same time they complained, and in that complaint he concurred, that none of the promises which had been held out to them at the time of the Union had been fulfilled. They stated, that the abuses of the local jurisdictions had not been suppressed—that the oppressive and injurious power of the corporate bodies had not been diminished—nor had the Catholic population, forming seven-eighths of the inhabitants, been restored to their just and lawful rights; but that on the contrary, the consequence of the Union had been, to withdraw from them the protection arising from their landlords residing in the country, and to leave them to the abuse of power—the extortion and oppression of agents. He wished it was in his power to negative that part of the petition, but he feared that it was beyond contradiction. They were also right in stating, that the Union had materially aggravated these evils. They also complained of the present system of tithes. They complained of its injustice, and not of the principle on which tithes were levied; of the right claimed by a small body of men to-have immense sums of money paid to them by the body of the people, in order to support a hierarchy which insulted and oppressed them. All legal measures of resistance, they said, seemed to be forbidden, and they therefore called on the House to give its most serious attention to the

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outrages now committing in various parts of Ireland; and they prayed the House to institute an inquiry into the cause of those outrages. They complained of the insults to which an attachment to their ancient faith had subjected them; of the unbecoming and unchristian language in which that faith had been spoken of. They complained that their deceased friends were refused the rites of burial according to the ceremonies of their religion, and that, in the city of Limerick, the military had been called in to enforce the prohibition of rites which had scarcely ever been denied by the most barbarous nations. They complained of the injustice frequently practised towards persons of their persuasion in the inferior courts, and they gave as an example the province of Ulster, where they said justice was almost altogether lost in cases between persons of different persuasions, and they referred to the conduct of the son of a right rev. prelate. They also complained, that they could not find redress for the outrages committed by the Orangemen in the North, and that in the South the existence of the Insurrection act had only proved that the gross want of attention to the feelings of the people, and of the absence of those means which might have been used to conciliate them, had alone rendered that measure expedient. In support of this, they referred to Mr. Serjeant Lloyd and to Mr. Justice Torrens, who were employed in the administration of the Insurrection act in that part of Ireland. They said, that in cases between Protestants and Catholics, or between the government and an individual, there was no equal justice meted out to the parties. While this system continued to be triumphant in Ireland, while it reigned all over the country, while it existed in the church and state, and while it governed in the law, while it continued increasing on every side, while the heir presumptive to the throne (although the petitioners believed the suggestion to be false) was pointed out as the patron and protector of the Orange faction, and of the system of political exclusion, and while no attempt was made by the parliament to check the influence of that system, Ireland could not be expected to emerge from the gloom that surrounded her, or to feel for this country any kindly sentiments; but must in case of a war, be a source of danger to this kingdom. On these grounds the petitioners prayed the House to take into
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its serious consideration the reform of the church, the exclusion of Orangemen or others belonging to secret or unlawful societies, from serving on juries, and for the speedy and unqualified emancipation of the Irish Catholics. Such was the petition which he had undertaken to lay before the House, and, in doing so he had stated to the petitioners his qualified approbation of some parts, his entire concurrence with others, and his total dissent from the remainder of the petition. While he told the petitioners here as he had told them elsewhere, that he could not support the whole prayer of their petition, it was but fair that he should add, that he was deeply impressed with the improper treatment which they had experienced, and with the probable consequence that would result from inattention to their request.
Ordered to lie on the table.

GAME LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. Stuart Wortley Mr. Stuart Wortley moved the order of the day for the going into a committee, to take into further consideration the report on this bill. Upon which, sir J. Shelley moved as an amendment, "that the bill be taken into further consideration on this day three months."
Mr. A. Smithseconded the amendment. He thought the bill so completely absurd, that he knew of no better method than of getting rid of it altogether.
Mr. Lockhartcomplained, that the hon. mover, in the recital of this bill, had overlooked at least twenty statutes, the objects or titles of which should have been recapitulated. Instead of doing as had been done with the bankrupt acts, whenever the bankrupt laws had been altered or amended, namely, reciting and consolidating them, and then stating the new enactments, the hon. member's bill specifically repealed, of all the numerous game laws now existing, so much only as regarded the matters of possession and qualification. Now, as it was no where stated in the bill what other parts of those preceding laws were to be still operative, or what repealed, he could not conceive an act, if the bill should pass into one, the extent and application of which could be more embarrassing to the people at large, to the magistrates, or the judges. The hon. member remarked on the danger of the clause permitting the sale of game, and the encouragement a measure would extend to poachers, and expressed his intention to support the amendment.
Mr. Cartwrightsaid, that although he was friendly to the principle of the bill, he should strongly recommend to his hon. friend, the expediency of withdrawing it for the present. He was quite convinced, from the opposition it had encountered, that it would be impossible to carry it in the course of the session.
Mr. W. Peelopposed the bill, which he said could be advantageous to no other persons than the poachers and poulterers.
Mr. H. Twissalso opposed the bill. There could be no doubt, he observed, that the restrictions which it added to those, already too numerous, of the present system of game laws, would considerably increase crime among the lower orders of the people. The provision which it was proposed to make against this consequence of the measure, by legalizing the sale of game would, he was satisfied, be found inefficient. Besides, if that provision were more operative than he believed it would be, its tendency would be to degrade the country gentlemen into hucksters, and he was therefore sure that it would never be sanctioned by them in practice. There were, however, other and more serious objections to the measure, which deserved the particular attention of parliament. It was admitted to be a subject of regret that the existing game Jaws were too severe, and their enforcement often evaded on that account. But, what did the bill before the House propose to do? Not to abate that severity, but to increase it to an unreasonable degree. At present, persons charged with offences under the game laws were held only to have committed a misdemeanour; but, by the proposed bill, their offence was made at once a felony. Now, bail might be tendered by the party accused, and no magistrate, however zealous for the preservation of game, could or would refuse to accept it. By the bill before the House, however, the liberty of the accused was at once forfeited, and he had no means of regaining it before trial, except by a writ of habeas corpus, the expense of which would make it, to the great majority of persons taken up under the bill, a remedy rather in theory than in practice. By this alteration in the character of the offence from a simple misdemeanour to a felony, the culprit would lose the privilege—to him an invaluable one—of addressing the jury; and thus the general operation of the bill would be, to increase the offence; and the opportunities of com-
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mitting it, while the means of defence would be curtailed and diminished. The game laws, as they stood, were too often the cause of ill-will between the landowners, and the people in their several neighbourhoods. The proposed bill, so far from removing this, would add to the prejudices which were created by the circumstance of those who were most interested in the preservation of game having to administer the laws respecting it; and, by legalizing the sale of game, would fix the imputation of still more palpably interested motives in the country gentlemen.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that the main question was, whether it was expedient or not, to attempt to alter the present system. He did not know whether his hon. friend, the member for Yorkshire, was disposed to accede to the suggestion which had been made to him of withdrawing his bill for the present session, but after the objections which he had heard, he was induced, if his hon. friend did not adopt that suggestion, to vote for its re-committal. The bill had at least the merit of providing for two great evils of the present system; the one by permitting the sale of game, without which he was convinced no permanent improvement could be hoped for; and the other, by altering the absurdity with respect to the qualification. As the law stood at present, a gentleman of large property, with six sons, could not qualify more than one of them, and yet he was called upon to enforce the very laws which his own family set the first example of violating. This was an anomaly, the existence of which ought not to be permitted. Objections had been raised to the severity of the measure; but, was it forgotten, that the present law was also severe, and that it was the cause of crime, the quantity of which the bill proposed to diminish? He, however, thought it would be better that the measure should for the present be postponed, and under this impression he repeated his intention to vote for its being re-committed, if his hon. friend should determine to press it.
Lord Miltonthought the House had nothing to do with the effect which the bill might have, either as to the increase or the diminution of game. It was not the duty of parliament to provide for the amusements of country gentlemen, but to legislate for the preservation of the morals of the country. The main effect of the

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bill before the House would be, to multiply the number of persons interested in the preservation of game, and therefore to multiply the number of prosecutions for offences committed against it. He deprecated the severity of the punishments which it provided for those offences, and recommended the repeal of the prohibitions against the sale of game.
The House then divided: for the original motion, 103: for the amendment, 120; Majority, 17. The bill was consequently lost. Mr. S. Wortley gave notice that he would, early in the next session, move for the re-introduction of the bill.

ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITIONS.
Earl Greyrose to offer a petition which had been put into his hands, signed by certain Roman Catholics of Ireland. The petitioners stated, that the Union, instead of restoring them to their rights, had been of no benefit to them; and that they looked on it as having greatly aggravated all the evils under which the petitioners before suffered, and having in addition inflicted a greater evil still, by taking away from the country a resident gentry, and depriving the people of their natural protectors. The next object of which the petitioners complained, was the system of tithes, which was a more special injury to them, as seven-eighths of the people were Catholics, who contributed to these tithes for a church, from which they not only derived no advantage, but from the members of which, the petitioners stated, they met with nothing but contumely and insult. The petition also complained of the administration of justice, not in the upper
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courts, but in the local jurisdictions and subordinate courts. The petitioners also complained of the spirit of party in Ireland, which had pervaded corporations, and caused their affairs to be so managed, that they were productive of the greatest oppression to the petitioners. The petitioners further stated, that all these acts and hardships had their source in those penal statutes, which excluded them from the privileges of the rest of their countrymen. They also stated, that there could be no hope for the permanent tranquillity of Ireland, unless the disabilities of which the petitioners complained were removed. They prayed, therefore, that there might be a reform in the temporalities of the Church; a reform in the corporation laws, that Orangemen might be excluded from Juries, and the Catholics relieved from the disabilities under which they labour. Before he determined on presenting the petition, he had felt it to be his duty to ascertain that it contained nothing disrespectful to their lordships, and beyond that, he conceived it was not his business to inquire; for, according to his view, the presenting a petition was an act purely ministerial, which no noble lord could be excused for not performing on account of any difference of opinion as to the matter which the petition might contain. He had said this much, because there were in the petition statements with many parts of which he could not agree. He had therefore left to the persons from whom he received the petition, after stating to them his opinion, to say, whether they would choose to make him the medium for presenting it. The answer returned was, that they still wished he would present it, and give it his support as far as he could; and it was in consequence of that request that he had now the honour of addressing their lordships. With respect to the main object of the petition—the removal of those disabilities and disqualifications by which the Roman Catholics were excluded from a full participation in the advantages of the British constitution — it certainly had his fullest concurrence. Retaining as he did, the opinion he had on all occasions expressed, with respect to those disqualifications, he should, whenever that question came to be discussed, support it with the same zeal as heretofore. With the other prayers of the petition, he certainly could not agree; and he could not help considering it a subject of much regret that they should appear in

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it. One of those statements, he could confidently say, was totally unfounded. It was that in which it was stated to be reported, that the faction, of which the petitioners complained, had the countenance and support of an illustrious personage (the duke of York). Now, he was sincerely convinced, that however much that illustrious person might differ in opinion with the petitioners, the natural benevolence of his heart would make it his wish to extend to all persons the benefits of the British constitution, and that it was only a paramount sense of duty which induced him to oppose a prayer for such an object. With regard to the extraneous topics to which he had alluded, he considered those by whom they were introduced to have been very ill advised. He in particular disapproved of the sweeping manner in which the petitioners spoke of disfranchisement of corporations, and the reform of the temporalities of the church. Differing from former petitions so much as this did, it was not possible to refrain from lamenting that such a difference should be exhibited; but, however much that might be a matter of regret, it ought to be none of surprise; for, it was the effect of disappointment and irritation, produced by a long continued 6ystem of misgovernment, both civil and religious, in Ireland. By this system of misgovernment parties had been kept in conflict with each other, throughout every part of the united kingdom. Those who were lately taught to encourage a hope that their complaints would be listened to, were disappointed and overwhelmed with despair. This was to be expected from the instability and fluctuating nature of the measures of the government; for he was convinced that the evils of Ireland were much aggravated by the present State of the administration. The soil was rich and fertile, but those who laboured it were in poverty. That a people possessing warm hearts, high feelings, and every quality capable of rendering them great and prosperous, should be reduced to the state in which the people of Ireland now were, without any fault on the part of government, was a proposition so contrary to every acknowledged principle, that he could not for a moment give it credit. The situation of Ireland must therefore be the effect of a long series of year so misgovernment; but thee vils arising from that general misgovernment were as he had said, greatly aggravated by the pre-
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sent state of the administration. Their lordships knew that there was a division in the cabinet, which could not fail to produce most mischievous fruits. One of the consequences of this division was, that by one party the hopes of the Catholics were excited; by the other, the fears of the Protestants were alarmed. The hostile parties in the country were brought into the field. The one was encouraged to advance demands which the other was taught to resist. Thus, while disappointment and despair were experienced on the one hand, an insulting triumph was exhibited on the other; so that Ireland was never before in such a state as it was at present. He therefore felt most anxious for the removal of the great cause of that state of things. With a sincere wish that a favourable opportunity would soon arise for directing their lordships' attention to the main object of the petition, he should content himself with moving that it be laid on the table.
The clerk proceeded to read the petition, which was discovered to be divided into two parts, each on a distinct and unconnected piece of parchment. Inconsequence of which, it was withdrawn.

WELCH JUDICATURE.
Lord Cawdorrose to move certain resolutions relative to the administration of Justice in Wales. It had been, he said, in various periods of our history, frequently endeavoured to effect a reformation in the system of the judicature of Wales. It was to him unac-countable, that after petitions had been presented to both Houses of Parliament, complaining of the want of a due administration of justice—after committees of both Mouses had made reports, recommending an adequate reformation—it was to him unaccountable, that the executive government should remain indifferent to the subject. He should conclude with moving, that the House should resolve itself into a committee, for the purpose of entertaining the following resolutions: —First:" That, in the judicature of Wales, there exists not a due administration of justice: secondly, that such defect had arisen from the local and unlimited authority of the Welch judges: and, thirdly, that such an addition be made to the number of English judges, so as to include Wales in the English Circuits."
The Lord Chancellorobserved, that Under the present constitution of the judicature of Wales, there was an access to

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the courts of Westminster. He had now been for nearly forty years acquainted with those courts, and, during that period, he had known of only six applications to the courts of Westminster from the Welch courts. The motion of the noble lord deserved great consideration. The subject might merit the attention of a select committee, and certainly, the change ought not to be made without it; but, if it were now appointed, no report could he made during the present session. On this account, the noble lord had called upon the House, on the sudden, to resolve itself into a committee, in order to adopt certain resolutions. Of such a summary course of proceeding he (the lord chancellor) could by no means approve, and would therefore resist the motion.
The Marquis of Lansdownwas of opinion, that the noble mover had made out a strong case for the adoption of his resolutions. The mode in which justice was administered in Wales required immediate reform, and under such circumstances it was not surprising that the noble mover should propose a course of proceeding somewhat sudden and summary. In England, the judges were chosen for their legal learning, and high characters, and were independent of the Crown. In Wales, they were appointed, not for their professional attainments, but from political influence, and they were in general the creatures of the minister of the day. The proposition was supported by the sound principles of British law.
The House divided—for the resolutions 6. Against them 14.