Sitting of 14 May 1824

ALIEN BILL.
The bill was read a third time. On the motion, that it do pass,
Lord Gagesaid, he had no objection to the principle of the bill; but he thought the power entrusted to the secretary of state to send foreigners not only out of the country, but where he pleased, required some limitations. As the bill now stood, the gallant Mina, and Alava, might not only be sent out of the country, but back to Spain. Suppose a Polish or an Italian refugee were demanded by the power, which at present domineered over Poland and Italy, would their lordships stand firm? And if the ambassador of either of those powers should make war or peace depend on our compliance, would their lordships prefer a war to giving up such an alien? He thought some clause should be introduced into the bill, limiting the power of the secretary of state as to sending aliens to other countries.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, it would be the duty of every British minister, to resist any such demand, and run the hazard of a war rather than comply with it.
Lord Clifdenagreed, that the power entrusted to the secretary of state was too great, and would no doubt be much abused, if it were not for the check in which ministers were held by a free press.
Lord Hollandwas against the principle of placing confidence. Some persons entrusted with arbitrary power, abused it without knowing it and without wishing it; others abused it designedly. The whole principle of this bill was arbitrary, and it ought to be restricted as much as possible. As the bill now stood, it was impossible for parliament to see its enactments enforced. The secretary of state
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might send an alien to any place he pleased, and to some place where his life might be forfeited, according to some arbitrary regulations, which were called laws by the courtesy of Europe.
Lord Gagethen moved, that the following clause be added by way of rider to the bill;—"Provided always, that no alien under the provisions of this act shall be transported, in any case, to any part of the dominions under the authority of his lawful sovereign.".
The Earl of Liverpoolobjected to the clause as answering no good purpose. If it was right to give the power of sending an alien out of the country, this power must not depend on the alien going of himself, but there must be a power of sending him, and that power must employ force in carrying him away, if necessary. It was not possible, nor would it be judicious, to place any limits to this power. He should not wish to send a refugee Spaniard to Spain; but the power of sending aliens away must be left without limits.
Their lordships then divided on lord Gage's motion: Contents, 13; Not Contents, 25. The bill was then passed.

SILK-MANUFACTURE BILL.
On the order of the day, for the second reading of this bill,
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, he had, on a former occasion, presented a petition from the Silk manufacturers of Dublin, complaining of the impediments thrown in their way by the Dublin Society, which, he understood, was a mixed company of ladies and gentlemen, who met as a board of trade, to settle the rate of wages, and sundry other matters. When parliament delegated a power to fix wages, and create regulations to the Dublin Society, it had, in fact, given that society as much power as it had itself. In a country like this, where freedom was regarded as the only sure basis of prosperity in trade, he was sure he had only to state these restrictions, to ensure support to the bill which was to repeal them. He did not expect, therefore, any opposition to its second reading. It was the same, in substance, as the bill which had been introduced to their lordships last year; and when he took into consideration the sound opinions as to freedom of trade, which prevailed on his side of the House, he was sure that there the bill would meet no opposition; neither did he expect it would be opposed by their lordships on the other side. Last

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session their lordships had allowed a similar bill to be read a second time. Having, then, already sanctioned the principle of the measure, their lordships would not surely act so inconsistently as to refuse a second reading to the present bill. A measure had already passed, by which all the restrictions were to be removed in 1826; and he wished their lordships now to consider, whether it would be right to hamper those restrictions, until the time when the foreign importations should take place, which would render all the precautions they had taken abortive. It was hoped that, by the machinery which the capital of this country could afford to put in motion, we should be enabled to outsell every other country; but he wished to know what encouragement the master manufacturer would have, to employ his capital in improving a trade from which he could derive no benefit. By the ingenuity and industry of our manufacturers, this country might hope to enjoy the advantage of an export silk-trade; but, while the law remained in its present state, that was impossible, The British manufacturers of muslin had outdone the manufacturers of India in that article; and, though wages in France were low, they were not so low as wages in India. There was, therefore, no reason, if the restrictive laws were repealed, why the manufacture of silk might not be brought to such a state in this country, as to render it as great an object of export as cotton. It was said, the journeymen would suffer by the alteration he proposed. Now, he stood there with the wish of supporting equally the interests of the journeymen and the masters. It was, indeed, impossible to separate those interests in the view which he took; for he well knew, that if a free trade existed, the master could not obtain an advantage, without at the same time benefitting the journeyman; but, the regulations he wished to do away with precluded the operation of this principle. Suppose the journeyman to apply to a magistrate for an increase of wages, the magistrate judged of the necessity of the rise by the price of the quartern loaf. If, at the last adjustment, the loaf was 8d., and at the time of the application it was 10d the magistrate thought he did enough if he raised the wages of the weaver one-fourth. But, nothing could be more injurious to the interest of the journeyman weaver than this fixed price for the article he made.
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On an increased demand, he would obtain higher wages; but he was tied down by the price of the quartern loaf. On the other hand, when the trade became languid, the master could not afford to pay the fixed price; he, therefore, withdrew his capital, and the journeyman was thrown out of employment. Another hardship created by the law was the restriction respecting apprentices. A weaver could have no more than two. Thus, when old age or infirmities had rendered a man, who had devoted himself to a profession which required the exertion of great ingenuity, incapable of earning a livelihood by the labour of his hands, he was prohibited from supporting himself by teaching others. He might have a large family of children, and in that case it would be natural for him to wish to employ them; but the journeyman must sacrifice his paternal affection to the restriction of this impolitic law—The noble earl next called their lordships' attention to the regulations in the weaver's price-book, and pointed out the injustice of only the same price being allowed per yard for certain articles, whether the width was a yard or half a yard. With regard to fancy work, it never was carried on to a less extent than at the moment he was addressing their lordships. When that work was regulated by law, the labour of two persons was necessary; but, since machinery had been introduced, one was sufficient; yet, notwithstanding the advantage gained by machinery, this branch of the trade had declined; because the master was obliged to continue to pay for two persons, though he needed only one. The noble earl concluded by expressing a hope that the observations he had made would induce their lordships to proceed to the second reading of the bill.
The Earl of Westmorlandopposed the motion. From every thing he had heard— and what he had heard was confirmed by the petitions on the table—as much alarm prevailed now among the industrious population of Spitalfields, as last year. It would be better to see what effect the law lately passed would have, before their lordships proceeded further. It was a very serious matter rashly to disturb the minds of great masses of people. The silk-trade was not said to be at present in a state of distress; consequently, there was no ground for immediate interference. To put an end to long-existing regulations was a thing which ought not to be

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hastily done. He would, therefore, move as an amendment, "that the bill be read this day six months."
Lord Ellenboroughthought the present the best time for removing the restrictions, and intimated his determination to vote for the bill.
Their lordships divided: For the second reading: Contents 23. Not-Contents 8.