Sitting of 26 March 1824

WOOL—PETITION AGAINST EXPORTATION OF BRITISH.
Mr. S. Wortleypresented a petition from the wool merchants, manufacturers, and others of Halifax and its neighbourhood, against the exportation of British Wool. He hoped that government would, at least, so far relax the system they were about to adopt, as to allow the parties a protection, in order to enable them to compete with the foreign manufacturer.
Lord Milton, not having hitherto had an opportunity of expressing his opinion upon this subject, hoped to be allowed to say a few words, intimately connected as he was with the county of York and the petitioners. It was true, that great alarm prevailed in the West Riding upon this subject, but he thought it was unfounded, and that no danger would arise from the unrestricted competition proposed by the chancellor of the Exchequer. Perhaps, however, it might be right to afford the manufacturers some degree of protection; not because it was required, but because it would quiet apprehensions and give satisfaction. When the petitioners spoke of
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the export of British wool, he believed it would never take place. It was the duty of members, who held that their constituents were mistaken, to endeavour to undeceive them, and remove the delusion. In his view of the question, the mercantile and manufacturing part of the community was more than any other interested in the removal of all restrictions upon free trade.

SLAVE TRADE PIRACY BILL.
Mr. Secretary Canning,in moving the third reading of this bill, said, he was desired by his hon. friend, the member for Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce) who was unable to attend from indisposition, to state, how much he regretted that he could not be present on this occasion, to express his joy at what he considered the accomplishment of the great object, for the attainment of which he had so long laboured.
Sir J. Mackintoshsaid, he could not let the present opportunity pass without congratulating the House and the friends of the abolition generally, on the success which had attended a measure which he had seen so long opposed. Looking back at the difficulties with which its friends had had to encounter, he could not at one time have thought it possible that they should have been overcome in such a comparatively short time. In the early part of his life, he had seen the measure combated, in and out of that House, as one which it would be most dangerous and most unjust to pass. He had seen the slave trade defended as a legitimate trade, and he now lived to find it where it ought to be placed—amongst the number of capital crimes. He had heard merchants advocating it as a source of national wealth, and gallant admirals defending it as a source of naval strength; he had heard it supported and justified as a trade which rescued the negro from the cruelty of his African enemies, and conferred a blessing on him by transporting him from that inhospitable shore, to the paradise of our West-India Islands. One gallant officer, indeed, had gone so far on the subject, and thought the situation of the enslaved African so enviable, as to have expressed a regret, that he himself had not been, born a negro. He remembered to have heard it stated, that the question of abolition was supported only by a set of political incendiaries and religious enthusiasts: but, a set of virtuous men, by perseverance, had triumphed over all these obstacles,

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and now the trader in slaves was justly held up to the execration of the civilized world. The crime of man-stealing, which had stood without punishment in any European code, was now justly classed amongst those which were to be visited with the severest punishments; and it was to the credit of his hon. and learned friend, the member for Winchelsea (Mr. Brougham) that he was the first man by whose exertions that crime had been so classed; and though the versatility of the mind of his hon. and learned friend had fitted him for almost every kind of public business, and his genius bad qualified him to undertake those of the most arduous nature, yet he believed there was no act of his public life which would reflect greater credit on his memory than this. It was also a source of great satisfaction to him to perceive, that by the treaty about to be finally concluded between the two British nations on both sides of the Atlantic, they would shortly enter into such arrangements as would be likely to shame mankind out of this horrid traffic. It was satisfactory to perceive that while the Americans were emulating the maritime glory of their ancestors, and were not less jealous of their national honour, they had yielded on two important points to the cause of humanity [The hon. and learned gentleman was proceeding, when Mr. Canning intimated to him, that the other House were waiting to have the bill sent up to them]. He then observed, that in consequence of what had been communicated to him, he would not delay the House any longer.
The bill was then read a third time, and passed.

COMPENSATION TO OFFICERS IN COURTS OF JUSTICE.
The House having resolved itself into a committee, to consider of the propriety of granting Compensation to officers for losses in consequence of the County Courts bill,
The Attorney Generalsaid, that compensation had been rendered necessary by the bill introduced by the noble lord opposite (Althorp), for the regulation of County Courts. He had no intention to throw obstructions in the way of that measure: but if an important public benefit were to be conferred, it ought not to be at the expense of private individuals. Offices in courts of justice were not saleable, generally, by several ancient statutes; but there were exceptions, and by an act of
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Henry 6th, places in the gift of the Chief Justices of the courts of King's Bench and Common Pleas, were allowed to be sold. From that time to the present, therefore, they had been purchased, and even so lately as the year 1809, the provision of the statute of Henry 6th, was recognised and confirmed. In the report of the commissioners, on the fees of courts of justice in England, printed in 1818, special mention was made of the office of chief clerk of the court of King's Bench, as a saleable appointment, and it was considered as forming part of the emoluments of the chief justice of the King's Bench. Whether that judge ought to be allowed to derive a part of his salary from such a source was not now the question. The office of chief clerk was a very valuable place, returning about 7,000 l per annum. Shortly after the appointment of the late lord Ellenborough, the chief clerk of the court of King's Bench died and his lordship, as the appointment vested in him, was offered no less a Sum than 80,000 l. for the office, but his lordship preferred making a grant of it to his son. He was given to understand, that almost the whole patrimony of the noble lord who now held the place was derived from this source. It was needless for him to refer to the eminent services of the late chief justice of the court of King's Bench; for, if the sale of this place were looked upon as part of the just and legal emoluments of that high station, it would be extremely unjust, not to say ungenerous, to pass a bill depriving the present possessor of the office of chief clerk of his patrimony, without making him an adequate compensation. The three prothonotaries of the court of Common Pleas were in the same situation. Those offices were coeval with the establishment of the court, and they had been always sold by the chief justice for the time being. The general amount of purchase money was about 10,000 l. The prothonotaries were obliged to provide clerks, and regularly and personally to attend. Though on the first impression it might appear injurious to the administration of justice, that such offices should be saleable, yet it had not been found so in point of practice. He would undertake to say, from his own knowledge and observation, that the duties of these offices had been discharged with the same fidelity punctuality, and diligence, as the functions of other offices in the gift of individuals, and which by law could not be sold. It

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was not to be forgotten, that the individuals to whom he referred had a freehold in their office, and that they were charged with taxes to a considerable amount. He also claimed compensation for the secondaries, who were appointed by the prothonotaries. They paid for their places; held them as freeholds; and their emoluments would be materially affected by the County Courts' bill. Another office, the fees of which would be reduced, was that of the master of the two sides of the court of Exchequer, the duties of which were performed by deputy; Mr. Rose had a freehold in that place which was saleable, and for which compensation ought to be made. Compensation was likewise due to an individual from whom he had received a letter, which if he read, the House would immediately allow the justice of the claim. His office was that of senior attorney and secondary of the court of Exchequer. He was a person advanced in life, and his emoluments, it was calculated, would be reduced by the bill to one-fourth of the present amount. Another class of officers entitled to compensation were the prothonotaries of the courts of Great Session in Wales. These officers had purchased their offices; had vested rights in them; had establishments to keep up for the performance of I the duties; were charged to the land-tax; and had, in every other way, been considered as possessors of freeholds. On these grounds it was, that he claimed compensation for them; and it was calculated, that as the writs issued would be diminished by one-fourth, there would be a proportionate diminution of their gross income, while many of the charges now imposed upon them remained undiminished. He had made inquiries concerning the office held by lord Ellenborough, and he found, that if the bill passed without a clause for compensation, he would lose 1,500 l. a year. To lay a ground for compensation, he had only to state the question in this manner: if the office were taken away altogether, for the public advantage, there could be no doubt that a compensation would be given to those who had a life interest: If then for the same purpose, not all, but a half or a quarter of the emoluments of those offices were taken away, by a parity of reasoning, a compensation, in proportion to the loss, was due. He was happy, too, to be able to state, that the whole amount of compensation which the House would be
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called on to grant in this manner would not amount to more than 5 or 6,000 l. a year; a sum small, in comparison with the benefits which would be conferred on the country by the bill of the noble lord. It had been said that the principle of granting compensation in this manner had been condemned by committees of the House. He should show on the contrary, that the principle of compensation in such cases had been uniformly sanctioned by committees and by the House itself. The finance committee of 1798, in its reports on the officers of courts of justice, expressed its opinion, that wherever alterations were made in the constitution of courts of justice, or any changes introduced to make legal proceedings less burthensome to suitors and the public, compensation should be made to the holders of the patent offices, which, though in other points of view materially useful, were in great part supported by the fees on the business they performed. The Report of the commission of 1740, of which lord Hardwicke was a member, was quoted by the committee of 1798, and it recommended, that whenever ancient fees should be abolished, compensation should be made to the officers by whom they were received. If to put a parallel case, the noble lord thought it for the public benefit to abolish the unnecessary proceedings in the transfer of a certain description of property—copyhold property, and to abolish the fines, reliefs, heriots, &c. on admissions, would he not think it necessary to give compensation to the lords of manors? All property depended upon the laws; and the particular kind of property which was affected by the bill of the noble lord, had been sanctioned by repeated acts of parliament, and particularly by the act of 1809.—But it would be said, that it was necessary to see how the House had acted in similar cases. From the time of William 3rd parliament had been in the habit of granting compensation for the loss of fees. By the 6th of William 3rd a particular writ, called capias pro fine, which was deemed oppressive, was abolished; but parliament felt that it could not take away the fees without compensation to the officer; and the fees were directed to be paid as if the writ had issued. In 1803 a bill was brought in to alter the mode of proceeding in the court of Exchequer in Ireland, and a particular class of officers being affected by this alteration, a clause was inserted in the bill to prevent

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the officers from being injured by the change. The preamble of that clause of the bill might be without alteration applicable to the present bill; it declared, that whereas the lawful fees and emoluments of the parties might be reduced, it was just and reasonable that compensation should be made. There was another case—that of the court of Requests in the borough of Southwark—which was exactly parallel to the present bill. The court of Requests had only jurisdiction at first to the extent of 2l., but it was raised to 5l., and it was thought that this extension of jurisdiction would diminish the amount of business of the court of Marshal-sea, and accordingly it was directed, that 50 l. a year should be paid out of the fees of the court of Requests to each of the four Counsel of the court of Marshal-sea. Now, this was precisely parallel to the noble lord's bill. The transfer of business effected by this bill, would carry fees from the courts of Westminster-hall to the County Rates or the Consolidated Fund, according to the ultimate destination directed in the noble lord's bill, and out of one of those funds, according to the precedent of the Southwark court of Requests' bill, compensation should be made to the officers who suffered by the change. There was another case in the granting of leases under the Crown. It was formerly the practice, that leases granted by the Crown should be issued from the Exchequer. It was deemed, that it would tend to the improvement of the administration of the revenue, if the leases were granted in the ordinary way; but, in effecting that public benefit, it was not thought fit that individuals should suffer, and lord William Bentinck, who held the office of engrosser of writs in the Exchequer, and who was injured by the change, received compensation under the same act. In the bill for regulating the court of Common Pleas in Ireland, the prothonotaries, who are sinecure officers, received compensation for the loss of fees; and, in an act of parliament as recent as the last session, the same principle was established; for, in that act, founded on the report of the commissioners on the fees of courts of justice, the judges of the courts of King's Bench and Common Pleas were authorized to regulate the fees of their courts; but it was directed, at the same time, that as it was possible that officers of the courts might suffer loss, they should report what compensation should be made. The hon.
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and learned gentleman, after recapitulating the grounds on which he urged the motion, moved a resolution,
"That it is the opinion of the committee, that his Majesty be enabled to grant an annual sum out of the consolidated fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, by way of compensation, to be paid to the present chief clerk on the plea side of the court of King's Bench in England, the clerk of the rules, and the clerk of the papers of the said court; the present prothonotaries, secondaries, and filacers of the court of Common Pleas in England; the present master, senior attorney, and secondary of the plea side of the court of Exchequer in England; and the present prothonotaries of the courts of Great Sessions in Wales; for any deficiency in their lawful fees and emoluments, that may arise in consequence of any act that may be passed in the present session for the more easy and speedy recovery of Small Debts is England and Wales."
Lord Althorpwished he had been convinced by the speech of the hon. and learned gentleman, not only because it was unpleasant for him to stand up to oppose a claim for compensation made in behalf of gentlemen with many of whom he was acquainted, but because he was aware, that, with a view to facilitate the passing of his bill, it would be good policy for him to accede to the motion. But he thought this principle of granting compensation for losses indirectly occasioned, could not be too strictly watched; and he thought the House should have more direct precedents than those adduced by the hon. and learned gentleman, before they saddled the country with the burthen. The only precedent in favour of the hon. and learned attorney-general, which could be at all considered as a direct one was, that of the compensation made to the counsel of the court of Marshalsea. But this, if not technically, was substantially a private measure. The compensation was not made out of the consolidated-fund. The officers of the court of Requests, who received more fees is consequence of their extension of jurisdiction, undertook to pay 50 l. a year to the counsel of the Marshalsea, who suffered by that change. The hon. and learned gentleman had referred to Ireland, but he would find in that country a precedent directly against the principle for which he contended. When the mode of

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proceeding by civil bill was introduced—which comprehended cases to a much greater amount than the present measure, he believed as high as 20 l.—there was no idea of granting compensation to the superior courts. He did not think the hon. and learned gentleman was borne out in his analogy drawn from private property. If a man's landed property were taken for a public purpose, compensation was made to him; but if, by any measure taken for the public benefit, that property was incidentally rendered of less value, compensation was not made. For instance, if a new and shorter road was made between two towns, there was no compensation made to the owner of an inn on the old road for the loss of custom. This was a question of great importance to all future improvements in the jurisprudence of the country; for if every man who brought in a measure of improvement was to be assailed with claims for compensation, and obliged to saddle the country with salaries on account of every incidental loss of fees, it would operate very much to deter all such attempts. He, for one, though since he saw the advantages that might result from the bill, he should not now be deterred from urging it on by the claim for compensation, should have been very reluctant to propose it, had he foreseen that claim. He should move a resolution to put his sense of the subject before the House, though he should not press it to a division. He then moved as an amendment—"That it is the opinion of the committee, that no precedent exists for a compensation being made to persons holding offices for life in the courts of Westminster hall, for diminution of fees resulting from the establishment of courts for the recovery of small debts, and that the establishment of such a precedent is inexpedient, as it will go to impose fresh burthens on the people, whenever any measure of improvement s introduced in the system of jurisprudence.
Mr. M. A. Taylorsaid, he was friendly to the principle of the bill, but he could not consent to pass over the rights of individuals. Many of the persons who held offices in courts of justice, had given up professional pursuits for what they considered as freehold places. He was instructed to state the case of one very respectable individual, the county clerk of Durham, who was appointed by the bishop under patent Though that office did not
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produce more than 200 l. a year, it was as much a freehold as any of their estates. He hoped the noble lord would not risk his bill, which was calculated to be most useful to the country, for the sake of this 5,000 l. a year. He should move to introduce the name of the county clerk of Durham into the resolution of his hon. and learned friend the attorney-general.
Sir George Rosestated the case of the clerk of the plea side of the Exchequer. His office had been executed by deputy: one half of the profits were paid to the deputy, and the principal paid the whole expense of the establishment. According to the best calculations, the bill will reduce the receipts one-fourth; so that it was obvious the condition of this officer would be anything but advantageous. This, he thought, formed no substantial objection to the bill of the noble lord, the object of which was most laudable. Nothing could be more honourable to a man of the noble lord's rank, than to see him thus devote himself to the endeavour of procuring a freer and cheaper administration of justice.
Mr. Littletonwas sorry the noble lord did not accede to the claim for compensation, which appeared to him so just. As to the clerk of the court of King's-bench, the late lord Ellenborough had his mind so fully impressed with the sacredness of that office, that he left it to his son, and left him little else besides the income of it. Nor was it surprising that the late lord chief justice should have felt so confident, after the uniform language of commissions and committees. He reminded the noble lord, that there was never a case in which a bridge was built, but compensation was made to the owner of a ferry, if the ferry was injured by it, even though the bridge was not built on the land of the owner of the ferry. He thought however, that the House should take an early opportunity of revising the patent offices of courts of justice, which were the cause of great injustice to the other officers of the courts. The salaries of the chief justices of the court of Common Pleas and King's Bench were small, on account of the patronage of those offices. It so happened, that the late lord chief justice of the King's Bench was enabled to make a provision for his family, but the present chief justice was left with the reduced salary, and with no means of making any such provision.
Mr. L. Fostersupported the amendment.
Mr. R. Smithsaid, that if compensation were not granted to these officers, they would be placed in a worse situation than if the offices were wholly abolished. In the latter case, they would be able to turn their talents into a different channel, whereas, in the present case, they were left sticking in their offices, while half their emoluments were taken away.
Mr. Bankesthought, that, in point of principle, it was just that a fair and adequate compensation should be made to the holders of patent offices, whose incomes might be deteriorated by the effect of any legislative measure. Among the cases, however, which had been cited by his hon. and learned friend, the compensation which had been granted in Ireland appeared to him particularly objectionable, on account of the extravagant terms on which it had been made. He considered that case as one of the grossest abuses of the principle of compensation which had taken place even in Ireland; where there had been so many instances of improvident compensations granted at the time of the Union. Admitting the principle to be just that compensation ought to be made to the holders of patent offices, if the value of the offices were affected by an act of parliament, he thought, at all events, they ought not to legislate before it was ascertained to what extent the profits of offices would be diminished, or whether in point of fact, they would be diminished at all. The resolution proposed by the hon. and learned attorney-general was altogether premature. It would be better to allow the aet to continue in operation for twelve months; by which time its effect on the value of these patent offices would be ascertained, and the House would be in a condition to grant a fair and adequate compensation.
The Solicitor Generalagreed with the hon. member for Corfe Castle, that the amount of compensation could not be ascertained by anticipation; but, they were now discussing the preliminary question, whether any compensation should be granted? He should be ever ready to give his support to any measure which was calculated to effect a reform and an improvement to the administration of public justice, but it was necessary, at the same time, to protect most scrupulously the rights of property. That House was the asylum for reform; but it was also the
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sanctuary for the principles of property. The principle of compensating individuals who held offices, the value of which might be affected by a change of the law, had always been recognised by that House. Suppose the mode of authenticating wills were abolished, would not the persons who held offices of profit in the ecclesiastical courts be entitled to compensation? If the form of passing real property by fines and recoveries, or if the registration of deeds in the counties of Middlesex and York were abolished, would not the persons holding those offices be entitled to compensation? The principle of compensation ought certainly to be circumscribed within just limits; and he thought the office in the palatinate of Durham, to which the hon. gentleman opposite had called the attention of the committee, came within those limits.
Mr. Abercrombysaid, he should be happy if he could bring himself to accede to this principle of compensation, but he had not been able to come to that conclusion. It had occurred to him at first, that there was a reasonable distinction between those offices which were the subject of purchase, and those which were not; but, upon further reflection, he saw no sound reason for that distinction. His hon. and learned friend had said that there was an implied compact between the officers and the public. He admitted that there was such an implied contract, to a certain extent; for instance, they had no right absolutely to abolish an office without compensation during the holder's life, or if a man had been accustomed to receive 2s. 6d. as a fee, they had no right to reduce it to Is. It would be a great public evil, however, if no measures could be taken to effect an improvement in the administration of justice because the indirect effect of those measures might be to diminish the quantity of business brought to the offices of those individuals. If such were the nature of the contract, no time ought to be lost in giving notice to all future purchasers, that such a claim would not hereafter be recognized. The holders of these offices were not the only persons whose interests would be indirectly affected. His hon. and learned friend, the attorney-general, was aware that there were a great number of individuals who had embarked a considerable capital in the expenses of a legal education, under the supposition, that the court of King's Bench would

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retain all its present business. If these persons were to make a claim on that House for compensation, would not the House laugh such an application to scorn? Yet, in point of fact, there would he no difference between such a claim, and that of the holders of offices, for there was no specific contract, on the part of the public, in either case. The alteration of a road by an act of parliament, which, from time immemorial, might have passed through a particular village, had often reduced many families to poverty; but was a claim for compensation ever heard of in such a case? The objections which had been made to the resolution by the hon. member for Corfe Castle, in point of time, were, in his opinion, unanswerable. Nothing could be more preposterous and unjust than to shew such extraordinary tenderness to these individuals, on a mere speculation, that certain consequences would ensue, and that they were therefore entitled to a certain amount of compensation. These consequences might never arise; and if these individuals got the compensation for an anticipated injury which they might never suffer, he should be glad to know how the country was to get it back again.
Mr. Sykessaid, he had considered this to be a measure which was calculated to produce the greatest benefit to the country; but, if the principle of compensation were carried to the extent contended for, he believed no advantage whatever would be derived from it. Claims would be preferred by all the holders of places of special jurisdiction throughout the kingdom. At the present time, and under the present circumstances, he thought the claims for compensation perfectly unreasonable. If the measure must be clogged with this principle of compensation, it had better be abandoned; for. under such circumstances it would lose its character with the public. He thought the claim quite unreasonable.
The Attorney Generalsaid, that he meant to construct a clause in the committee on the bill, which would, he was convinced, obviate all the objections; but he could not frame such a clause, unless his present resolution was agreed to. It was merely to pave the way to such an arrangement that he proposed this resolution. As to the objection, that there would be no limit to the number of claims, no offices would be entitled to compensation, except such as were specifically in-
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cluded in this resolution. He should include the office to which the hon. member for Durham had alluded; because it would be a hardship on the officer who held it if a compensation were not granted to him, and it would make no material difference in the sum which he proposed to apply to these compensations.
Mr. Humethought the resolution ought to be amended by a declaration, that it should not be lawful for any chief justice, or any other person, to sell or dispose of any of those offices for which compensation was proposed to be given. He wished to know whether it was the intention of the attorney-general to introduce such a clause?
The Attorney-Generalsaid, he certainly did not intend to propose any clause, that would tend to restrict the emoluments of the chief justices.
Mr. Humesaid, that they ought to be paid by direct salaries in a sufficient manner, and not by the sale of offices.
Lord Miltoncould not assent to the principle of purchasing the right to effect a great public improvement in the administration of justice. Let the grievance first be redressed, and the inquiry into individual and incidental injuries follow. He agreed with the hon. member for Corfe Castle, that they ought not to legislate on this subject by anticipation. If the suitor was offered a better mode of redress it one court it was natural that the fees of the officers in the other courts should be diminished pro tanto; and, speaking upon principle, if they compensated at all, they should extend the compensation to all officers, and not confine it merely to the rich and powerful, whilst they passed over those who had not equal facilities to make their voice heard in Parliament. But he was opposed to the principle of compensation altogether, for he thought there was no reason why allowances should be made to persons who might happen to be incidentally injured.
Mr. Abercrombywas desirous to know for what length of time these compensations were to be carried on. If his hon. and learned friend should answer, that they would terminate with the life of the present officers, then would arise the question respecting the chief justice; for if the emoluments of these officers should be diminished, he would of course receive proportionally so much less for them when, they fell within his disposal.
The Attorney Generalsaid, it was his

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intention to confine the compensation to the lives of the present holders of the offices, and not to extend any remuneration to any beyond those with whose lives the interest should expire. With respect to the latter point, there was a precedent by which he meant to be guided. A question had arisen some years back, with respect to the right of selling the office of master in chancery in Ireland. It had been doubtful, whether such a right did in reality exist; but it was found to have been sanctioned by long usage. And what did Mr. Ponsonby propose to do? He brought in a bill to prevent the sale of the office in future, only allowing those who had purchased the office the privilege of selling it because it would have been hard to prevent them from so doing. So that here he had a precedent, by which he was justified in stopping at the precise point he proposed.
Mr. M. A. Taylorthen proposed the addition of the name of the county clerk of the County Palatine of Durham.
Lord Allhorpsaid, that if compensation were to be granted to any man, no one had a better right to it than this gentleman; since a considerable portion of business would be taken out of his court by the operation of this bill.
The proposed addition was agreed to. After which, the amendment moved by lord Althorp was negatived, and the original resolution agreed to.

COUNTY COURTS BILL.
The House having resolved itself into a committee on this bill,
Lord Althorpthen rose, and proposed an amendment to that part of the bill which provided for the appointment of assessors to the sheriff. As the bill now stood, the right of appointment was vested in the Custos Rotulorum, and the amendment which he meant to propose was, that the appointment should belong to the Crown. This amendment, he proposed, as the best mode of preventing any vexatious contest, wherever a vacancy occurred, red, and an appointment became necessary.
Mr. Sykesobjected to the amendment, and proposed that he appointment should be vested in the-sheriff, or the going judge of assize.
Mr. Secretary Peelsuggested the necessity of having the appointment of the assessors vested in responsible hands. The office of sheriff, annual in the person who held it, was not one to which the
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House should attach the responsibility of such an appointment. It was equally objectionable to make the judges of assize responsible for the acts of others. Was it politic to make the bar dependent on a judge of assize? It was of importance to provide that these assessors should be men of learning, and above suspicion in the administration of justice. Even a few inefficient appointments would throw odium on the whole establishment. He recommended the propriety of limiting the number of assessors, and extending their labours over a greater space. In the place of seventy individuals in the counties, the establishment might be limited to seven or eight, receiving, no doubt, larger salaries, but possessing the requisite knowledge and character, to ensure an efficient and unsuspected discharge of the duty.
Lord Althorpconsidered the suggestion of the right hon. secretary impracticable. It was the object of the bill to provide for the holding of the sheriffs' courts four times a year in different towns in each county, in such counties as Yorkshire and Lancashire, such an arrangement would give the assessor full employment for the whole year.
The Attorney Generaldefended the practicability of the suggestion of his right hon. friend. Persons competent to discharge such duties could not be procured under 500 l. per annum. If the number were to consist of seventy assessors, that would entail an expense upon the county rate of 25,000 l. It could be so managed, that a much less number, by dividing the county into circuits, might discharge all the duties.
Mr. R. Smithsuspected that the attorney-general under-estimated the labours of these appointments. He suggested the propriety of the postponement of the clause, in order to allow gentlemen on both sides to give it further consideration.
Mr. Bennetwas favourably inclined to the proposition of the right hon. secretary. He thought it would be destructive of the independence of the bar, to divide seventy places of 500 l. a year each among its members.
Lord Eastnordid not see any reason why these places should be filled by barristers exclusively. There were many gentlemen residing in the country whose education fully qualified them to perform any duties which the office might require.
Mr. Secretary Peelinstanced the appointments of assessors in Ireland, where experience proved, that those who were removed from all local connexion, discharged the duties the most efficiently.
Mr. Hobhousesaid, that having been a member of the committee employed in preparing the bill, he felt, from the first moment, a firm determination not to give to the Crown the appointment of seventy new offices. Indeed, he was much indisposed to open to the bar any increase of offices, in whatever hands the patronage might be placed. But, feeling how much the existing abuses in the administration of the law relative to the recovery of debts stood in need of an efficient corrective, and thinking that the present bill afforded that remedy, he thought it better to damage the integrity of the bar, than allow the existing evils to continue. But, speaking without any inclination to give offence, he did not believe that the vaunted integrity of the bar was in danger by the proposed total of 35,000 l. That could not be much endangered, which scarcely existed; and he sincerely believed there was not any great stock of integrity at the bar. On a future occasion he should take the opportunity of showing what, in his opinion, had put an extinguisher upon the independence of the bar—how patronage was heaped on the profession, how its honours, such as silk gowns, &c. were bestowed and refused. With respect to the proposed reduction of the assessors, as suggested by the right hon. secretary, and the increase of salaries to the few, he had a decided objection to it, inasmuch as such situations would then become the object of attraction to that class of lawyers (already too numerous) who set up their abilities to sale. When the allowances were small, and conferred on local barristers, who had the respect of their vicinity to look to, there did not exist that allurement to dishonesty, which he feared would be found in the other case. And, as to the necessity of great learning in the law, it was to be recollected, that all the decisions, under the bill, were to be made by a jury. He saw no ground whatever forsaking the appointment of the assessors from the Custodes Rotulorum.
Mr. Bernalsaid, it was necessary that the assistant barristers, or assessors, should have a competent portion of legal knowledge. It was not unfrequently the case that actions for 10 l. comprised points of as much legal nicety, as were mooted when the But was for a much larger sum.
Mr. Peelsuggested, that the Crown ought to be invested with the power of consolidating two or three of the smaller counties; leaving the large ones to be furnished each with an assessor.
Mr. Bennetentirely objected to the interference of the Crown.
The clause was then, by consent of the committee, postponed.
On reading the clause, providing, that justices of the peace should order the sitting of the court,
Mr. Hobhouseadverted to the petition which he had presented against the bill from a number of his constituents, complaining, that if it were enacted in its present form, they would be subjected to considerable inconvenience and a ruinous expense, since they might be compelled to follow their debtors into the remotest parts of the island. He was anxious that some amendment should be introduced into the bill, by which so serious an evil might be averted; and would therefore propose that the following words should be inserted in this clause:—"And that all such actions shall be brought and prosecuted in the district or districts where the debt is contracted."
Mr. R. Smithsuggested the addition of the following words, to the proposed amendment,"—"or where the defendant resides."
Mr. Hobhouseconsented to this addition to his amendment; but, after a few words from the attorney-general, it was agreed that the further consideration of the whole clause should be postponed. On the clause, limiting the debts to be recovered in the County Courts to ten pounds,
Mr. Lockhartmaintained, that the sum was much too small. He wished that 40 l. could be substituted for 10 l.; but he should be satisfied if 20 l. were so substituted; and he moved an amendment to that effect.
The Attorney-Generalobserved, that as the bill was an experiment, and was, in fact, a great change in the law, it would, in his opinion, be much better for the present to confine the sum to 10 l.
It was agreed, that the further consideration of the clause should be postponed. On the clause, enacting, that the assessors should appoint the clerks of the court,
Mr. Portmansuggested, that the amount of the security which the clerk of the court was called upon to give, ought to be specified.
Lord Althorpobserved, that as the sums which would be paid into those courts were not likely to be great, moderate security would be sufficient.
The clause was then agreed to.
Mr. Hobhouseobjected, on behalf of his constituents, to the clause which went to contract the period assigned in the statute of limitation.
The Attorney-Generalsaid, that, in his opinion, the bill as then framed would by no means answer the purpose intended; namely, that of creating courts of summary jurisdiction for small debts. In the first place, it precluded reference, by which the courts of Westminster-hall contrived to get rid of the most perplexing cases of disputed accounts. The process was to be by plaint, instead of the declaration used in the higher courts, which was to be answered by a plea; and both plea and plaint were to be professionally drawn; the suit was to be prepared by solicitors, of course of very low rank and practice, and conducted by counsel. Each case would therefore be open to all the artifices by which causes were perplexed and lengthened in the superior courts, and this by the very lowest practitioners. The bill would be utterly useless in the end, unless the noble lord consented to the introduction of a clause to prevent solicitors and counsel from interfering with the process, and to substitute in their place a power given to the assessors to cross-examine witnesses, and then submit the question to the jury.
Lord Althorpdid not know how he could meet the views of the hon. and learned gentleman, because, as it appeared to him, if parties could not appear by solicitors, they must be required to appear in person. If this were to be the rule, there would be danger of unprincipled plaintiffs suing gentlemen wrongfully, with the certainty, that they would not think it worth while to appear merely for the sake of the fines. However, if the right hon. gentleman could frame a clause to meet this as well as his own view of the subject, he would gladly support it.
Colonel Trenchmentioned a case of two solicitors in one of the counties, who had contrived to swell the number of suits since 1815, from an average of 82 per annum, at which it stood before, to upwards of 400, preying upon their own clients in case of defeat or loss of costs; and out of 1,300 or 1,400 cases, they had not pressed more than 15 to final judgement.
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The chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again.

WOOL DUTIES.
The House having resolved itself into a committee on the Customs acts,
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that at that period of the night, he should not detain the House for any length of time; but, as it was extremely desirable that the precise nature of the proposition he had to make with respect to these duties should be before the House, and as he could not make that proposition but in a committee, he would avail himself of the present opportunity of so doing. Afterwards, when a bill should have been founded upon the resolution which he had to propose, it would be competent to gentlemen to discuss the subject. What he had then to propose was this; that, instead of repealing the existing duties on wool immediately, or on the 5th of July next, as he had originally intended, the reduction should take place by degrees. He had submitted the proposition to some of those persons who were most interested in the measure, and they considered that it would be the most convenient mode of effecting the object he had in view. He should move, therefore, that the duty of sixpence in the pound should be reduced to one penny in the pound, but in the following manner:—that it should be reduced on the 10th of September next from sixpence to threepence; and on the 10th of December next from threepence to one penny. He should also move, that on the latter day the present prohibition on the exportation of raw wool should be entirely removed, as well as that upon certain articles of wool, which were so loosely manufactured, that they could be easily converted again into wool, and ultimately into cloth. By way of protection, however, to the trade in these articles, he proposed to place a duty of 2d. in the pound on the exportation of raw wool, which was more than he had originally intended; and upon those articles which were loosely or partially manufactured, a duty of 16 per cent upon the amount of their value; which would, upon the average, be about the same as 2d. in the pound upon the raw article. As he did not intend to take off the duties instantaneously, he thought it would be unnecessary to return any part of the present duties to the holders of wool, because they would have a fair opportunity of

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getting rid of their surplus. The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving resolutions to the effect contained in his speech.
Mr. Brightobjected to the discussion of this subject in the present state of the House.
Mr. Calcraftsaid a few words to the same effect. He was one of those who did not consider it was expedient to concede the exportation of long wool. If, however, the right hon. gentleman thought it was necessary that his resolution should now be carried, he would not press his opposition, because other opportunities would occur for his expressing his opinion.
Mr. Westernexpressed an opinion, that the duty proposed on the exportation of long wool was too high, and would therefore operate as a prohibition.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that if he could have acted entirely as he had wished, he should not have imposed so high a duty; but it was thought, that when a system of laws which had been long cherished with what he confessed he considered a mistaken veneration, was about to be abrogated, something was due to the interests of those who imagined they would be affected by the proposed measure. He therefore thought that it would not be inconsistent with the policy of the government to concede something to the notions of those persons; and for this reason it was, that he had acquiesced in the duty of twopence, instead of the almost nominal duty of one penny. He flattered himself that he had succeeded in allaying the apprehensions which had been entertained on this score, although he was not convinced that there was any reason for them. He believed that, if the long wool were exported without any restriction, no ill effects would result, because that wool would always be cheaper here than any where else; and that if the duty were taken off foreign wool, it would more than compensate our manufacturers for the seeming disadvantage, and prevent the foreign manufacturers from availing themselves of it to any extent. He knew it was said that there could be no great benefit attending this experiment. If, however, it should appear, when the measure came to be put in practice, that the duty did really amount to a prohibition, it would be necessary to apply to the House to remedy that inconvenience. At all events, it was wise in the first instance, to put on a duty even higher than he could
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have wished it to be, in order to prevent any of the ill consequences which might attend the opening of the trade. The plan would then operate not at once, but gradually; and, he trusted, could afford no one just ground of complaint.
Mr. Westernsaid a few words in approbation of what the right hon. gentleman had stated.
Mr. S. Wortleyobjected strongly, that that description of wool which was the peculiar growth of this country should be exported, in such a way as would enable the foreign manufacturers to compete with us successfully. All the petitions he had presented to the House looked at this subject in the same way. With respect to the duty which was to be imposed, he must take leave to tell his right hon. friend, that he did not look upon it either as a prohibition or as a temporary measure. The manufacturers of wool, his constituents, claimed as a right, that their trade should be protected to that extent, as far as it was connected with the article which was the exclusive produce of England. All that they sought was, a protection equal to the disadvantage they were likely to sustain by the exportation of that article; they said—"Give us this, and we are quite willing to enter into competition with the rest of the world." He understood it was not expected that much raw wool would go out of the country, but that a great deal manufactured into yarn would. The manufacturers were very anxious to have a little more time for the purpose of looking about them. He hoped his right hon. friend would give them six months longer than he had proposed, and not carry his resolution into effect until the 5th of July, 1825.
Mr. Crippsregretted the discussion of this important question at that time of night. In the county of Glocester long wool happened to be the growth, and not the manufacture of the county. He believed that the whole produce of the country was not more than was necessary for the employment of the artisans engaged to work it up; and this he took to be the strongest argument against the expediency of permitting its exportation.
Mr. W. Smithobjected to discussing this important question further in the present stage, and at that late hour, when, so many members had gone away, under the expectation that the resolution would not be brought forward. Enough had been already said to create alarm, and

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enough could not now be said to allay it. Many of his constituents were materially interested in the question, as far as regarded long wool; and they would certainly think it most extraordinary, that a resolution of such consequence had been brought forward after midnight, and when there were not, forty members in the House. Whatever was now stated ought to be only in the way of exposition, and not in the way of debate; for it was impossible properly to discuss the subject at present.
Mr. Calcraftexplained why he had commenced the discussion. The question was one of the highest importance, and the public attention ought to be directed to it in the first instance, however late the hour, and however thin the attendance. The object he had in view was, to give the resolution the utmost publicity; and he trusted that enough had been done not to create alarm, but to call attention out of doors to the measure, and to let the public know that the preliminary stage had been passed through. It seemed that the manufacturers were, to a certain degree, satisfied with the change of duty proposed by the chancellor of the Exchequer: at least honourable members expressed themselves tolerably well contented on the part of their constituents. It was necessary that the matter should be distinctly understood, and he wished, therefore, to hear from the chancellor of the Exchequer, whether the two-pence per pound was to be considered a permanent or a temporary duty. At first the right lion, gentleman had spoken as if it were to be permanent, yet afterwards, in answer to the hon. member for Essex, he had appeared to intimate, that it was only to be temporary, in order to try the experiment.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeradmitted, that no doubt ought to be left upon the point. The footing on which he put it was thus:—if the export of wool were to be allowed, it ought not to be so clogged by a duty as to render the permission inoperative. He proposed the duty of two-pence, because it was fair and reasonable towards those who were interested, and whose apprehensions were excited. It was not his intention to limit the time during which that duty should continue, nor would he undertake to say, that it should be lowered at any given date; if indeed it were lowered at all. What he said was this, that if it should be found in practice that the duty, of two-
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pence per pound operated as an absolute prohibition upon the export, utterly inconsistent with the principle on which these measures were adopted, it would be fit that it should be taken off, because it was unfit that the prohibition should exist.
The resolution was agreed to.