Sitting of 25 February 1824

SPIRITS INTERCOURSE—PETITION OF SCOTCH DISTILLERS.
Lord Binningsaid, he held in his hand a petition from the Distillers of Scotland, who prayed for an equalization of the duties of Irish and Scotch Spirits. Irish and Scotch distillation was now the same, but Irish spirits were allowed by a liberal intercourse to come into this country, whereas Scotch spirits were excluded. From something which had fallen from the chancellor of the Exchequer in the course of last session, the Scotch distillers were led to believe, that they should be allowed the same advantages; and he was therefore anxious to call the attention of the chancellor of the Exchequer to the subject, and he hoped the prayer of the petition would be acceded to.
Mr. Kennedysaid, he could not omit the opportunity of bearing his testimony, to the advantages resulting from the enlightened measure of last year; but he greatly feared, that, unless the remaining part of it were carried into execution, namely, the equalization of the duties, a system of smuggling would spring up between England and Scotland, which it would be difficult to put down. He, therefore, trusted that the same spirit which influenced the chancellor of the Exchequer, in the course of the last session, would induce him to place the distillation of both countries on the same footing.

COINAGE—DECIMAL SCALE.
Sir John Wrottesleyrose to submit to the House the motion of which he had given notice, namely, to inquire how far the coin of the realm could be adapted to a decimal scale. His apology for trespassing upon the attention of the House must be the strong conviction which he felt of the necessity of the measure. The House must be aware, that the interference of the legislature was necessary to address the Crown upon a question of this kind, for the control of the currency was the prerogative of the crown. It had been said by the great commentator on the laws of England, Mr. Justice Blacks tone, that "as money is the medium of commerce, it is the king's prerogative, as the arbiter of domestic commerce, to give it authority or make it current. The denomination, or the value for which the coin is to pass current, is likewise in the breast of the king, and if any unusual pieces are coined, that value must be ascertained by proclamation. The measure, then, which he was about to propose could not be carried into execution without an address to the Throne, if after mature deliberation, the House should consent to his proposition; without which deliberation he should not presume to ask their assent. It must be manifest to the House, that this measure, if adopted, must be carried into execution at the same hour and moment, or a great degree of confusion must ensue throughout the country. A measure of this nature had been proposed some time back: he had not then the honour of being a member of the House; but, from the best information he could procure, he understood that an ounce of gold being then worth 99 s. it was proposed to coin it into five pieces. The hon. baronet, after a few remarks, which could not be distinctly collected in the gallery, proceeded to remark, that after all the experience which he had before him of the effects' of the recent change in the currency, considering the distress which it occasioned on the one hand, but on the other, the immense benefit it had produce to public credit, if the measure were again to be brought before the House, with all the experience of the past before him, he should still give it his decided approbation. No one, then, could think that he had the slightest intention to propose any alteration. On the contrary, he was most desirous that the currency should now remain on what he believed was a solid and durable basis. Neither was it his intention to propose any alteration in the gold or

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silver coinage, which maintained its currency in a manner essentially beneficial to the commercial interests of the country. This subject might require more authority than he possessed, if it could be at all considered a visionary scheme; but many of those who now heard him were aware, that a similar system had been acted upon for the last thirty years in France—a circumstance which was of some importance, when they considered over how many countries France had extended her conquests, and the anxiety on the part of that country to become acquainted with the coinage of different countries of Europe. In America, too, the system had been introduced, and it was even extended to the ancient kingdom of China. It could not, therefore, be considered a visionary plan. The innovation, and the only one which he proposed, was, that the system of computation should, from a period to be determined, be conducted on simple arithmetic, and not on compound, which should rather be called complex arithmetic, as was now the case. The very system recommended itself from its simplicity. At present there were four denominations of coin in payment; namely, pounds, shillings, pence, and farthings. He should propose, that three denominations should be substituted: and these should consist of pounds, double shillings, and farthings. In order to bring up the latter denomination to admit of decimal calculation, he should propose, that a value of four per cent should be added. The value of the penny at present, according to the papers on the table, would be, with the farthing, raised four per cent in value, 1,696; or, in other words, in one hundred pounds in copper money, 42 l. 8s. would be raised to forty-four pounds two shillings. In this way 100 farthings would make a double shilling, and 10 double shillings, or 1,000 farthings, would amount to a pound; and pounds would be converted, arithmetically, into farthings, or farthings into pounds, by simply adding or subtracting three ciphers to the right hand. The convenience of such a mode of keeping accounts could not be doubted, and it had been adopted in France for thirty years. Of course it would be necessary, to prevent inconvenience, that it should be carried into effect at the same moment all over the kingdom. This might easily be accomplished, by fixing some day for its absolute commencement, and enacting that, up to that appointed day, all trans-
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actions should be in the old style. The hon. baronet concluded by moving, "That ah humble address be presented to his Majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to direct inquiries to be made for ascertaining the best mode of adapting the Coinage of the realm to a Decimal Scale."
Mr. Wallacedid not deny that there were advantages attending the system proposed by the hon. baronet, but whilst he made that admission, he was not pie-pared to assent to his proposition, believing that the inconveniences that would inevitably follow the change, would be very great, and of a character that the expected benefits would not compensate. Besides, it was plain, that whatever were the defects in theory of our present system, it had been so long in practice, and the people were so habituated to it, that very little inconvenience was actually experienced. Nothing could be more correct than the course which the hon. baronet had pursued. It was, undoubtedly, the prerogative of the king to take charge of the coinage; but the very motion of the hon. baronet, tending as it did to create doubts, and to leave the public mind in a state of uncertainty, constituted its objection. The subject of decimal calculation. had been frequently before the House. It had been introduced at the time of the new coinage. It had its advocates, but he must also say, that there were opposed to the system some whose authority on questions of this nature stood very high in that House. It was most true that the system had been adopted after the revolution in France; but the hon. baronet would recollect, that it was adopted when there was an overthrow of every previous system, and when no existing interests or prepossessions were to be contended with. It had doubtless the merits of uniformity and facility, but habit and usage had given an equal facility in this country to the system that prevailed. Besides, there was a great objection to the proposition, when it was recollected, that such an alteration must principally affect the very description of persons, who, from their situations in life, carrying on their dealings in copper money, would feel the alteration, and could not be made sensible of the benefit. Adverting to the difference in the currency of England and of Ireland, he acknowledged that, it; was a very serious inconvenience, intimated that it was his intention to propose some measure on the subject, and expressed

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his hope that at some future period the coin of the two countries would be assimilated as well as their affections.
Mr. Hume,adverting to the committee which sat in former years, of which the hon. member for Bodmyn was the chairman, wished to know if their labours had terminated in any practical result?
Mr. D. Gilbertreplied, that the question of weights and measures alone had been considered by the committee, but that of money had never been before them.
Sir H. Parnellexpressed his satisfaction at what had fallen from the right hon. master of the Mint, with reference to the coin of Ireland. He had himself given notice in the last session, that he meant to move for leave to bring in a bill on the subject, but he most cheerfully resigned the undertaking into the hands of one so much more competent to do it justice. Unquestionably, nothing could be more pregnant with inconvenience and injury than the present inequality in the coin of the two countries.
Sir J. Wrottesleyconsented not to press his motion to a division, though he trusted that the young members of the House would live to see the principle of his measure carried into effect.
The motion was negatived.

REVENUE INQUIRY.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose to move for leave to bring in a bill to continue the commission of Inquiry into the Public Revenue; that commission, which had been productive of so much advantage in Ireland, and was now so beneficially employed in England, in investigating all affairs of revenue between the two countries. In the course of his observations, he said he should be guilty of great injustice to a former commission appointed by the Treasury, at the head of which commission was his right hon. friend the paymaster of the Forces, if he did not mention with the encomium it deserved, their report, especially that part of it which related to the Customs. It was a tribute due to that commission to notice the activity and knowledge which they displayed in the report in question. The right hon. gentleman then moved for leave to bring in the bill.
Mr. Humeasked, if it was the intention of those commissioners to direct their exertions to the same subject which had occupied them last year. There were many things in the Customs on this side of the
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channel which deserved their attention equally with the Customs of Ireland.
Sir C. Longacknowledged the gratification which must be felt by himself and the other commissioners in receiving the tribute of praise which his right hon. friend had been pleased to pay to their labours. He was happy to say, that their exertions had been deemed most useful; every suggestion which they had made had been adopted with entire success. It was not for him to say whether their labours should be directed to the same subject again; but he was confident they would proceed with as much activity and perseverance as before wherever their exertions might be wanted.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

DELAYS IN CHANCERY.
Mr. Leakestated, that in consequence of what had passed last night respecting delays in the court of chancery, he considered it his duty, out of respect to the House, although he believed it was not absolutely necessary, in point of form, that he should do so, to acquaint them, that it was not his intention to bring forward the measures upon that subject of which he had given notice at the end of the last session.

POOR-LAWS.
Mr. Nolanin moving for leave to bring in a bill to amend the Poor-Laws, said, that it was not his intention to enter into any explanation on the subject at present. If the House would allow him to bring in the bill, and to have it read a first time, he would then move, that it be printed and read a second time at some period that would admit of a sufficient opportunity for considering the merits of the measure.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.
Sir G. Clerk Sir G. Clerk moved for leave to bring in a bill to establish uniformity in Weights and Measures. He observed, that the bill which it was his intention to bring in, would be precisely in the same form as that of last year, and which had been lost, in consequence of its having been brought in at so late a period of the session.
Mr. D. Gilbertseconded the motion. He said, that the bill of last session had been founded on the report of the commission appointed by the Crown, the recommendation of which was, to take some natural measure as the guide, with

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as little departure as possible from the existing standards.
Leave was given, and the bill was brought in and read a first time.

COMMERCIAL INTERCOURSE BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND.
Sir H. Parnell,in moving for papers to elucidate the act of last session respecting the Commercial Intercourse between this country and Ireland, paid a high Compliment to the commission of Inquiry which had been employed so advantageously for the public in the latter country. Nothing could be more gratifying than to observe the success of their well-directed labours. They had done all they could to make Ireland an industrious, and a happy people. He moved that there be laid before the House a copy of all orders that had been issued by the commission appointed by the Treasury, in pursuance of the Act of 4th of George the fourth, for consolidating the several Boards of Customs and Excise in Ireland.
The motion was then agreed to.

EXCISE.
Mr. Hume,adverting to the statement made by the chancellor of the Exchequer respecting the duties on exciseable articles in the course of the last year, observed, that a noble lord, in another place, had been in the habit, for some years, of introducing a statement of the duties on those articles, whenever they were on the increase. But, whenever they were diminished, no statement appeared. Now, what he wished to have was, a clear account of the produce of the duties on all exciseable articles, for a series of years—say ten, in order that the effect of certain legislative measures, in increasing or in diminishing their amount, might be distinctly ascertained. He was also desirous of having a similar return respecting the Custom duties, under a certain limitation. The hon. gentleman then moved, that there be laid before the House an account of the several articles, charged with the duties of Excise for the last ten years; distinguishing the British and West-India from the East-India sugar; stating the amount of duty levied on each article, and the quantity of articles each year; and, also, distinguishing Great Britain from Ireland.
At the suggestion of the chancellor of the exchequer, Mr. Hume omitted the distinction in his motion respecting sugar, and it was then agreed to; as was, also, a
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similar account of the Customs duties, with reference to all articles on which the amount of those duties exceeded 50,000 l.

GAME LAWS.
Earl Grosvenorwished to say a few words on the subject of the Game Laws, to which their lordship's attention had already been called. Some noble lords might perhaps be desirous of hearing evidence to form a ground for any bill Which might come before them, and for that purpose propose the appointment of a committee to examine witnesses. Their lordships must, however, be aware, that they had before them a report of the committee of the House of Commons, which was printed, and might be consulted at their pleasure. He undoubtedly thought that report quite sufficient to justify their lordships in coming to a determination on the measure. The evidence taken before the House of Commons was extremely full and satisfactory. If their lordships were to travel from one end of the country to the other, they would find in every market-town proof of the truth of the allegation in that report, that game was every where to be purchased. The sale, in fact, could not be prevented: and it appeared to him, that if the bill for legalising it should pass into a law, it would not have the effect of lessening the quantity of game, as some supposed, but the contrary; for, if the game were permitted to be brought openly into the public markets, the reduction which would take place in the price would diminish the temptation to any illegal mode of procuring it. For the reasons he had stated, he should not move for the appointment of a committee. Indeed, he thought all further evidence unnecessary.
The Earl of Darnleyconcurred in the propriety of making game property, and

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of legalising its sale; but lie could not agree with his noble friend in thinking, that their lordships' House ought to take for granted all that appeared on the subject of the game laws in the report of the House of Commons. As their lordships had the power of examining on oath, he wished his noble friend to consider, whether it would not be advisable to institute an inquiry in that manner, and to see whether the examination before their lordships would bear out all that was stated in the report of the other House. This he thought would be more satisfactory than leaving the matter as it now stood. He would wish his noble friend to consider, whether it would not be better to have evidence at the first, than at the second hand; and this was an advantage which could only be gained by moving for a committee.