Sitting of 20 February 1824

WOOL TAX—PETITION FOR REPEAL OF.
Mr. T. Wilson, in rising to present a petition against the Wool Tax, said, he regretted that he was obliged to occupy the time of the House on such subjects; but, while such impolitic and oppressive taxes remained, the House would of necessity be continually besieged with petitions against it. The duty of 6d. a pound on foreign wool was one that could be only justified by the most pressing necessity, when every other object of taxation was exhausted. At the present moment, when the woollen manufactures of this kingdom had to come into competition in foreign markets with foreigners, who were subject to no such tax, and when the finances of the country could bear the loss of so inconsiderable a branch of revenue, the tax was utterly indefensible. The petition was from the merchants and factors of the city of London.
Mr. Robertsonobserved, that the prosperity of the agricultural interest followed that of the commercial interest, and that unless every facility was given to the commerce of the country, the landed proprietors, though their situation was undoubtedly much more prosperous now than it had lately been, would soon be plunged into greater difficulties than they had yet experienced. If the growth of wool were, in any given year, one-tenth greater than that of an average crop, the
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price would fall 30 per cent., and if it exceeded an average crop by one-fifth, the price would fall 60 per cent. Formerly, large quantities of this commodity were exported, but now the grower could not export unless the price of his produce sunk to 25 s. or 30 s. It was as much for the advantage of the agricultural as for that of the commercial interest, that this tax should be repealed. Wools at from 1s. 6d. to 2s. 6d. were formerly imported from the different countries of Europe, to the great advantage of the manufacturer of coarse cloth, which was the article of most general consumption. The existing duty on the importation of these wools almost amounted to a prohibition. Compare the price of labour on the continent with the price of labour in this country; add to that difference the amount of duty on importation, and we should then see the impolicy of this tax. At Aix-la-Chapelle, the price of labour was from 10 s. to 12 s.; in Silesia, it was 9s.: in Yorkshire, it was 16 s. When to this difference in the price of labour was added the duty on importation of 20 to 25 per cent, he would ask, whether it was possible for the manufacturers of this country to compete with the manufacturers of the continent? It was morally impossible; and, in point of fact, this country had lost the greater part of the continental trade. Since the year 2822 the amount of our exportations in the article of wool had decreased upwards of one fourth. Our coarse cloths were, in fact, prohibited in consequence of this tax in Italy, where nothing but coarse wool was now grown. Germany supplied Egypt and Turkey with coarse cloths, which she shipped at Trieste and Leghorn, and had completely driven us from the market. He begged to call the attention of the House to the state of America, in order to show the expediency of taking off the duty on the importation of the raw material. The population of the United States, before they were declared independent, amounted to two millions and a half; at the present day, it amounted to ten millions. The population of the settlements of South America might be taken, at a low estimate, at seventeen millions; and if it went on increasing in the same ratio as that of the United States, might be expected to amount to 60 millions in forty years. Here was an immense mart for our low-priced cloths, of which this coun-

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try might avail itself, if the impolitic duties on the importation of the raw material were repealed. It was more especially incumbent on the landed interest to encourage the commerce of the country, on the prosperity of which depended their only real prospect of relief. The great mass of the population of South America of course consumed low-priced cloths; it was of the utmost importance, therefore, that a tax should be taken off which excluded our manufactures from a consumption which would be almost unlimited in its amount. Not only the states of South America, but our own possessions in Asia, comprehending a population of a hundred millions, would afford a market for our manufactures, for which we might obtain the raw produce in return. With respect to long wool, his own opinion was, that it would be desirable to keep it in this country, allowing the short to be exported; but, if the short wool were not allowed to be exported without taking off the duty on long wool, he should be ready to agree to the exportation of both those articles. He conjured the ministers, as they valued the staple trade of the country, to take off this tax, or else to be prepared for the rest of the world combining together for its utter destruction.
Mr. Alderman Thompsondeprecated the impolicy of imposing high duties on low-priced commodities. He concurred in the observations which had fallen from the hon. member, and thought the same arguments applicable to the duty on raw silk. He hoped the chancellor of the Exchequer would place that article on the same footing in which it was placed in France, by taking off the duty on importation.
Mr. Alderman Woodobserved, that unless the chancellor of the Exchequer consented to the repeal of the duty on the importation of wool, the manufacturers in this country had come to the resolution of employing agents on the continent to wash the wool, in order to effect a reduction of the duties. The right hon. gentleman would greatly mistake the true interests of the country, if he suffered this tax to continue a year longer.
Sir J. Wrottesleycalled the attention of the House to the circumstances under which this tax had been imposed. They would all recollect, that, in the year 1819, when the country was in a state of pro-
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found peace, and also in daily expectation of aconsiderable remission of taxation, three million of new taxes were unexpectedly imposed upon it. Of this sum, part was raised by the imposition of a duty of 1s. 6d. a bushel on malt; and, as that tax was found detrimental to the agriculturists, it was thought proper to give them as a counterpoise to it, a protecting duty against the importation of foreign wool. Now, a considerable portion of the malt duty had already been taken off; and if the hon. member for the city would assist him in taking off the remaining sixpence, he would in his turn assist the hon. member to get rid of this tax on wool.
Ordered to lie on the table.

COAL DUTIES—PETITIONS AGAINST.
Mr. H. Sumnerpresented a petition, against the Coal Duties, from Bermondsey. He expressed his concurrence in the prayer of the Petitioners, and trusted that the chancellor of the Exchequer would take the subject into his serious consideration.
Mr. W. Courtenaypresented a similar petition from Exeter. He observed, that the inhabitants of that city had always shewn themselves most ready to bear the necessary burthens which were imposed on them, but they felt most strongly on the subject of this tax. The great hardship of this tax was, that it pressed with increased severity on those who were already exposed to the greatest difficulties from their local position.
Mr. W. Smithpresented a similar petition from Norwich. The inhabitants of that city did not deny that they were in a state of great prosperity. The population of that city had increased from 30,000 to 50,000, within the last twenty years; but they felt the harshness of a tax, which had been justly the subject of complaint throughout the whole kingdom.
Sir T. Aclandpresented several petitions to the same effect, from various towns in Devonshire. The petitioners complained of the tax as unequal, impolitic, and oppressive. As this was the last opportunity he should have of noticing this subject before the chancellor of the Exchequer made his financial statement, he would take the liberty of pressing, most strongly upon the right hon. gentleman, the expediency of taking off, either the whole, or a part of this tax. He concurred in the observation of the hon member for Exeter, that one of the most aggravating circumstances attending this tax was,

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that it pressed most hardly on those who were already placed in a situation of the greatest difficulty by their internal position. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would at least consent to place the inland and maritime counties on the same footing. The duties on coals sent to a distant part of England amounted to 6s., whereas if they were sent to the continent the duties would not amount to more than 3s. There was perhaps, no tax of which the repeal would be more extensively beneficial: it would give relief to all the most important branches of the national industry; for not a nail could be driven, nor any manufacture carried on, without the agency of fire. There was another point to which he wished to call the attention of the right hon. gentleman, namely, the expediency of taking off the duty on culm. This measure would afford considerable relief, and he trusted the right hon. gentleman would not object to it.
Ordered to lie on the table.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply,
Lord Palmerstonrose to submit to the House a statement of the Army Estimates for the present year. He commenced by saying that any gentleman who had looked into these Estimates, must see that there had been an augmentation of our military force, and an attendant increase of charge. In the first place, he should state, that there were six new regiments to be added to the force of last year, besides 200 men to be added to each of the three veteran battalions, making an augmentation of 4,560 men officers included. There would be an attendant increase of charge of 158.000 l. However, since the estimates had been first made out, he had received more accurate information, and he thought he should be justified in stating, that there would be a deduction of 55,000 l. from the vote he now proposed, The particulars of this deduction he should state presently, and this would reduce the increase to 103,464 l. In calling the attention of the committee to this increase, it would naturally be expected that he should give some explanation as to the cause of the proposed augmentation; this he should be able to do in a few words. The augmentation was not proposed on account of any apprehension that the peace of Europe would be disturbed. It was not proposed
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upon any anticipation that this country would be engaged in any foreign war, nor upon any alarm that its internal tranquillity would be interrupted. The ground upon which the Government felt it their duty to propose this augmentation, and upon which he trusted parliament would be disposed to accede to it, was solely and simply the present condition of our West India Colonies. Having pointed the attention of the Committee to that subject generally, perhaps he should best discharge his own public duty, as well as best consult the convenience of the House by contenting himself with having shewn the general grounds of the increase, and abstaining to enter upon topies, interesting and important in themselves, but of a magnitude sufficient to entitle them to a separate discussion, and not to be introduced as subjects for a collateral consideration, when the Army Estimates happened to be before the House.—Having thus pointed out the general grounds, he thought it right to state, that every regard had been paid to the most economical arrangement of the proposed increase. The Government had determined that every officer of the six new regiments should be taken from the Half-pay List; and not one was to be transferred by promotion from any of the existing regiments. It would be needless for him to say, that this had not been unaccompanied by a considerable sacrifice of feeling, as well on the part of the Government, as on that of the Commander in Chief. It would certainly have afforded them great gratification to have been able to have promoted those officers, who were no less entitled to promotion for their meritorious services during the war, than for their services, perhaps less glorious, but more Irksome and just as valuable, in our distant colonies, since the return to peace. But the Government felt themselves compelled to attend to considerations of a financial nature. His majesty's ministers had often been taunted with a desire to extend their patronage, even at the risk of the public service; but, if ever such imputations should be made again, he should content himself with referring to this statement, and upon this fact he should confidently rest the vindication of the Government. The arrangement, then, which he had stated would produce art increase of men to the amount of 3,800, officers included, and an increase of charge

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of 172,000 l. Against this was to beset a saving by taking officers from the half-pay list of 18,000 l. The sum of 139,000 l. was occasioned by the raising of the new regiments, and the remainder arose from the cost of the return of certain regiments from India, which were charged upon the East India Company, but which must of course be transferred to the estimates of the year. In the staff of the general officers there was an increase of 5,800 l. arising from the appointment of an additional general officer in Ireland, and from the transfer to that head of what propetry belonged to it, but had been charged upon another department. In the public departments there was an increase of 8,800 l. In the medical department there was a diminution of 584 l. In the volunteers y there was a very trifling variation from the last year. In the third class of estimates (for he should say nothing now of the troops in the East India Colenies) there was a diminution, as compared with last year, of 29,000 l. Adding to this the 55,000 l. which he proposed to abate, there would be a saving on the whole of 84,000 l. In the Military College there would be a deduction of 165 l. In the pay of the general officers there was a diminution of 13,600 l. In the Casualties he contemplated a reduction of 5000 l. Last year the casualties amounted to 12,000 l. The Garrisons would remain nearly the same as last year, with a slight difference, perhaps, of 195 l. The full-pay of retired officers had been reduced 1800 l., and he contemplated a still further reduction of 10,000 l. On the Half-pay and Military allowances there would be a deduction, as compared with last year of 17,000 l.; on this head he expected to be able to make considerable deductions. In the out-pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham there was a decrease of 5,000 l.; the reason of: this deduction being so small was, that many had been lately thrown on the list; the In-door pensioners were nearly the same as last year. In the Military asylum there was a decrease of 2,200 l. On the Widows' pensions there was an increase of 3,600 l.; this was occasioned by the number of fresh cases. The House was aware that the widows of officers on half-pay were entitled to pensions, as well as those on full-pay. There was an increase on the compassionate list of 6,500 l. In the superannuation allowances there was an increase of 3,683 l., partly arising from the transferring to this list other classes of
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the estimates. The Exchequer fees remained the same as last year. In the veteran battalions there was an increase of 19,000 l. and 363 men. The total balance would then stand thus—there was an increase of 4,560 men, and an increase of charge of 158,000 l. Deduct from this the sum of 55,000 l. to which he had alluded, and there would remain a balance of 103,000 l. He was intitled to take credit for the sum of 60,000 l. paid for the troops of the service in India. According to the act, that must be paid into the Exchequer, and must of course be taken into account by the chancellor of the Exchequer in the ways and means, and could not therefore be included in the estimates. Deduct, then, from the 103,000 l. the sum of 60,000 l. and the total increase of expense would amount to 43,000 l. and the increase of men 4,560. He should now move, "That a number of land forces not exceeding 73,346 men, and also 3,354 men for service in the royal veteran battalions in Ireland (exclusive of the men belonging to the regiments employed in the territorial possessions of the East India Company), commissioned and noncommissioned officers included, be maintained for the service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the 25th of December 1823 to the 24th of December 1824, both days inclusive, being 366 days."
Mr. Humesaid, if the House were to be influenced by the speech of the noble lord, they would suppose that his motion was to be granted as a matter of course. It appeared to him, that the reasons assigned by the noble lord for the proposed increase, were any thing but satisfactory. The noble lord seemed to think, that because in the course of the last year, the House of Commons on account of the then disturbed appearance of Europe, had waived opposition to the votes, that they admitted the necessity of maintaining 69,000 men; which was the force of last year. Two years ago, when the House addressed his majesty, on the subject of reducing the establishments to the lowest possible state, the government said then, as they said now, that it was impossible to make any further reductions. However they did, in the course of the following recess, make arrangements for reducing 10 or 12,000 men. Last year ministers were allowed to pass their own votes, because no one could say how soon the peace of this country might be disturbed

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by the aggression of France upon Spain. But, under what different circumstances do the House now meet the statement of the noble lord! The very grounds which he had adduced for the increase were the strongest reasons why the House should oppose him. But let them consider, that on an average of ten years after the American war our army did not amount to more than 33,000 men, whereas now we were called upon to vote 73,000. When we considered that in addition to this, we had 19,000 men in the artillery, veterans and marines, and that there were 77,000 militia enrolled for both countries, and a yeomanry amounting to 74,000, and supported at an expense of 150,000 l. yearly; when we had a right to consider the country in the most promising state of tranquillity; when we had the secretary of state for foreign affairs again repeating to us the most cheering prospects of peace and declaring that although there were certain elements of strife abroad which might by possibility, affect Europe, yet he apprehended no hostility to this country;—when he considered all these things, he could not consent to the proposed vote. The prospect of disturbance abroad might be a very good reason for increasing our navy; but none whatever for augmenting our military establishments. According to the proposed vote, we were to have no less than 233,000 men ready to be armed for any emergency. He should wish to call the attention of the House to the speech from the throne at the opening of the session. In that speech his majesty declared "That at no former period has there prevailed throughout all classes of the community in this island, a more cheerful spirit of order, or a more just sense of the advantages, which, under the blessings of Providence, they enjoy." Now, the natural consequence of plenty, he should have supposed, would be, to make men satisfied; but let the House only look to Ireland, and see what was its condition. Let ministers say what they pleased, sure he was that force would never produce tranquillity in that country. Ministers had neglected the only means in their power to conciliate that country; but instead of conciliating, or restoring peace in Ireland, additional force would only exasperate the people. He had once applied the term "disaffected" to the people of that country; but he now thought there never was a term more misapplied. They were attached to their king and their coun-
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try, and would be subordinate and obedient to the laws, if they enjoyed their equal protection; and he was quite persuaded, that if the House furnished his majesty's ministers with additional force, they would neglect the only effectual means by which tranquillity could be preserved in Ireland, and that they never would adopt those sound measures by which they could alone promote the prosperity of Ireland. In another part of his speech, his majesty declared that "he continued to receive from all foreign princes assurances of their desire to maintain and cultivate the relations of friendship with his majesty." Then, if we were perfectly free from any alarm from foreign states, or a disturbance of our domestic tranquillity, he thought that 3,000 men might very easily be sent to the colonies out of the 60, or 65,000 men which we kept up last year, and that without any increase, they could easily find sufficient force for that purpose. It behoved the government to put an end to the ferment and alarm which had been created in the colonies. The first measure to tranquillize the colonies would be, for the ministers to speak out and declare what their intentions were. Let it not be left to them to suppose what was to be done. They should at once say—"We intend to emancipate the slaves;" or "We do not." Suspense was the worst state in which they could be left; because they would then be subject to the intrigues of designing men, for he was told there were such persons amongst them; the best way would be, at once to make their declaration, and not to subject to perpetual danger the) lives and properties of the white population. Therefore, instead of increasing the army let the ministers make up their minds as to what they would do. They could preserve tranquillity without the addition of a single man. There was not the least fear of disturbance, unless the disturbance was made by ministers themselves. In the course of last year no man contemplated an increase of our establishments, unless the country went to war. On the ministerial side of the House, he believed, they never thought on the subject at all; but he knew that, amongst members of the Opposition, it was then a great question, whether a proposition should be made to reduce the then establishment from 5,000 to 10,000 men? But now we had a regular standing army of 73,000 men, 19,000 Veterans and Ma-

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rines, and 100 and odd thousand men ready for any emergency that might arise. He was one of those who thought that no British army should ever again be allowed to land on the continent of Europe. We had already seen the folly of endeavouring to make ourselves a military power. It would be much better for us to consult our maritime superiority; and we should rather endeavour to come back to the situation in which we once were. Let the House look to the great advantages which, at this moment, when the country's industry was reviving, a further deduction of one or two millions in the expense of its establishments would give. Under the constitution, our system was radically a civil government; it was never intended to be a military one: but now, so extensive was our array, that there was scarcely a family in the country that had not one or more of its members in the service so that we might truly say the ancient habits and character of the country were changed—those habits, and that character which had produced so much prosperity and imparted such strength and glory. The noble lord had dwelt upon the state of the colonies; but yet neither he nor his friends near him had condescended to tell either that House, the country, or the colonists, what was to be done.—By the bye he could not allow himself to proceed further without adverting to the very loose manner in which these estimates were prepared. They had been before the House scarcely eight-and forty hours, and the noble lord had admitted that within that time he himself had discovered various errors amounting to 55,000 l. There was an error under one head of 5,000 l. another of 10,000 l., and so on. Really, he did think that the noble lord was bound to take more care in submitting estimates for the deliberate consideration of parliament. There could be no excuse for such a loose manner of laying public accounts before the country. They were made up only to December last; and he could not understand what could have since occurred to produce so great an alteration. It shewed the necessity of that House directing their attention to the subject; and he must say, that great benefit had already followed the increased vigilance which for the last few years had been given to these subjects.—The noble lord had taken considerable credit for the reductions that had been effected. But, what were they? Why, the truth was, that our establishments were in this
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year of peace abroad, content at home, general satisfaction every where, as large as in the year 1817, when the whole of Europe was in a state of turmoil, and the elements of a protracted warfare had not yet subsided into a calm. In this year, when the speech from the throne had given such assurances of universal satisfaction, the country was called upon to add to the military expenditure a sum of 43,000 l. Was that House prepared to say, that after so many years of continued tranquillity, and with such assurances, it was ready to accede to a peace establishment of between fourteen and fifteen million, of which the military expenditure was 8,400,000 l.? There was no man more anxious than he was for the peace and prosperity of the West India colonies; but he was not willing, under the pretext of their situation, to load England with a large increased expense. The amount of force for Great Britain was stated at 22,019 men, for distribution abroad 30,793 and for Ireland 20,229. Were not the yeomanry and militia forces fully sufficient to allow a reduction of the home force? If there was a real necessity to increase the force in the West-Indies, and men were to be sent out, how came it that the noble lord did not propose a reduction of the cavalry and guards, which description of force was not applicable to the West-India service, and by so doing meet the expense of the new levies by such diminution? If the present increase of force was intended to be permanent, better have done with the West Indies altogether; better leave the planter to provide as he could for his own interests, than entail upon Great Britain a great expense, while the very necessity of employing such a force must ruin the colonists. The whole West-India property must cease to be valuable under such circumstances—the credit of the proprietors must be extinguished, if these islands were to continue in the present state of fermentation. His majesty's ministers, if they would be explicit, need not such a force for such a purpose. Let them candidly come forward and state their actual intentions. By acting thus, they would, he was persuaded, put an end to the prevailing irritation, and pacify all parties. It was his sincere impression, that he should best discharge his duty by calling for the reduction of the standing army, and not an increase of it. The House would recollect what the finance committee had

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said upon this subject. He would beg to read an extract frem their report on our military establishments:
"Your committee have proceeded to investigate the principal establishments of the country, beginning with the army. In this department, the first object that presents itself is the numerical amount of force.
"Your committee are deeply sensible of the extreme difficulty of ascertaining the precise point at which our military establishments should be fixed, on account of political considerations, and others of a still more delicate nature, which must necessarily involve themselves in the question. In taking into consideration the peace establishments of the country, it must be remembered, that if on the one hand they are proposed to be kept in a state of complete preparation, with a view of affording entire security to the nation both at home and abroad, the continued expense must bear so heavily upon the resources of the country, as to preclude all hope of relief from the burthens of taxation and the load of debt incurred during a long series of protracted hostilities; on the other hand, if they should be reduced too low, the temporary gain in point of economy might be more than counterbalanced by the hazardous situation in which this kingdom, together with its numerous and distant dependencies, might eventually be placed upon the breaking out of an unforeseen or sudden war; for which such a state of deficient military preparation might possibly offer no small temptation.
"It is rather therefore for the executive government, acting on their responsibility, to propose, and for the wisdom of the House to judge, of a matter of this high importance, than for your committee to offer an opinion; but they observe in the mean time with satisfaction, that upon a comparison between the estimates of the two last years, and those for the present year, much will appear to have been effected in the way of reduction, both as to numbers and as to expense; and they entertain a confident hope, that such further reductions will continue to be made, as may be found consistent with all the true interests of the country, neither erring on the side of absolute confidence on the long duration of peace, nor giving way to unwarrantable apprehensions of danger and aggression.
"Your committee, in making a refe-
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rence to the year 1792, desire to call the notice of the House to the low establishments of the latter part of that year, which were deemed sufficient for all national purposes at that time, in the contemplation of a long continuance of peace; and although many circumstances are materially changed by events which have subsequently taken place, so as to prevent any exact parallel from being drawn between the two cases, especially in the amount of pecuniary charge, yet they submit that as near an approximation to that low scale of establishment and expense as may be found consistent with our more extended possessions, and with the augmented rates of various fixed disbursements, would be highly advantageous in relieving the burthens, and in supporting the public credit of the country."
That Report, it was evident, recommended a recurrence, as speedily as possible, to the establishment of 1792. In what way had the recommendation of a committee of that House been acted upon. It had been acted upon by having at that moment a standing army, more numerous by 40,000 men than the establishment of 1792. That establishment in 1792 did not exceed 33,000 men; our military peace establishment in 1824, amounted to 73,000 men, exclusive of cavalry, veteran battalions, militia, and volunteers likely to be called out on any emergency. But, the committee would see, that if the exigency of the public service required the increase of force in the West Indies, that object could have been fully answered without having recourse to the expedient of raising new regiments. Since 1792, it should also be recollected, the pay of the army had been doubled; so that now the addition of any given number of men was made at double the expense of the former period. "No;" said the noble lord. "The calculation is wrong. Two and two do not make four in the army estimates, because the increase in the numerical force of each regiment, as now constituted, is met by the diminution of expense which was occasioned by the staff of the smaller regiments." Upon that very shewing, then, why did not the noble lord, in place of raising new regiments, with their expensive staffs, add so many men to each company of the existing regiments, whereby an increase, if necessary at all, would be given at a very trifling expense? Some sessions ago, he (Mr. H.) had pro-

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posed the reduction of fifteen regiments, and, if men were wanting, had shewn, that by the addition of fifty men to each regiment, or six or seven to each company, the same amount of force would be obtained. The House did not at the time agree with him; but he was not the less satisfied of its correctness and propriety. The noble lord had now called upon parliament to sanction the raising of six new regiments. Such a proposition he must consider, under the circumstances, as most improvident, extravagant and absurd. He had no doubt they would be given to meritorious officers to command. But his complaint was, that, in the present posture of public affairs both at home and abroad, they should be given to any persons at all. It was with astonishment he had heard the noble lord take such credit to himself for a reduction of such a sum as 140 l. under the head of the Military College. He believed the noble lord was strict enough in some particulars; but his vigilance did not, he thought, go through the whole of the department. He was active enough in taking a review of arrears of years standing, something like the scrutinizing demands made for arrears of legacy duties, but the whole amount of which would stand as nothing when compared with the expense about to be incurred by the proposed increase of his new regiments. Some check was undoubtedly requisite with respect to the granting of pensions. It did seem as if the whole power rested in the noble lord. It was with him to grant or to withhold. It was true, there was some other supposed concurring body; but, like the House of Keys, as was shewn in the recent debate on the jurisdiction in the Isle of Man, its services were dispensed with. The pension list had been very materially increased, and it required the most vigilant circumspection to check its progress. Under all these considerations, he felt it his duty to move an amendment on the resolution proposed by the noble lord. He was aware that it was usual, when the House was in a committee to propose as an amendment, either a specific reduction of the number of men or of the amount of money; and therefore it was, that, on the point of form, he felt some difficulty in ascertaining the proper mode of submitting an amendment, which embraced a general opposition to the proposed increase. He should, however, move as an amendment—
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"That as his majesty was graciously pleased, in his speech from the throne to inform the House, that, 'at no former period, has there prevailed, throughout all classes of the community in this island, a more cheerful spirit of order, or a more just sense of the advantages which, under the blessing of providence, they enjoy: In Ireland, which has for some time past been the subject of his majesty's particular solicitude, there are many indications of amendment, and his majesty relies upon your continued endeavours to secure the welfare and happiness of that part of the united kingdom: his majesty has commanded us further to inform you, that he has every reason to believe that the progress of our internal prosperity and improvement will not be disturbed by any interruption of tranquillity abroad. His majesty continues to receive from the powers, his allies, and generally from all princes and states, assurances of their earnest desire to maintain and cultivate the relations of friendship with his majesty.'—This committee cannot, therefore, agree to any increase of the number of the army since last year, but are of opinion, that a standing army of 63,000 regulars; exclusive of 19,000 of artillery, veterans, and marines, now embodied, and a large force of militia and volunteers ready on any emergency to be embodied, are sufficient, under all the circumstances of the country, to be kept up."
Mr. Brogden, the chairman of the committee, thought, that unless a specific motion, either for a reduction of expense or of force was made, the hon. member should reserve his general proposition to be made in the House.
Mr. Humewas aware of the difficulty, but to obviate it he should move, that after the word "That," in the original resolution, all the succeeding words should be omitted, and his amendment substituted.
Mr. Gordonexpressed his anxiety to offer a few observations, in answer to what had fallen from the noble lord relative to the West-India islands. He could not say that he was one of the great body of proprietors connected with those colonies who were so much the object of indiscriminate abuse, both within and without the walls of that House, but he-was to a degree interested in that important question, as he possessed some property in them. It appeared, however, that a considerable number of troops had

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been already sent to the West Indies by his majesty's government, in anticipation of the vote of the present evening; a number, he believed, amounting to about 2,500 men. The noble lord had treated the question, respecting the West Indies, with great prudence. He wished the hon. member for Aberdeen had followed the noble lord's example. On the contrary, that hon. gentleman had endeavoured to introduce a debate on a subject, on which, as by a general understanding, all other members had abstained from touching. He totally differed from the hon. member, in wishing that his majesty's ministers would speak out on the subject. He wished them not to speak at all; and he trusted that in the end the peace and tranquillity of the colonies in the West Indies would be securely established. But there were other reasons, besides those connected with the West Indies, which would induce him to assent to the proposed augmentation of the military force of the country. The hon. member for Aberdeen, had declared that therewas every reason for believing that the tranquillity of Europe would long remain undisturbed. On that point he entirely differed from the hon. gentleman. The same reasons existed at the present moment that existed last year, for entertaining some apprehensions on that score. The hon. member was of opinion last year, that the circumstances in which Greece was placed involved the probability of a disturbance of the peace of Europe. Were not those circumstances the same now as then? Although the French army had put down the Spanish constitution, the condition of Spain was as threatening as it was last year, and that of her transatlantic possessions more so. On these grounds, it could scarcely be necessary for him to say, that he could not vote for the amendment.
Sir W. De Crespignyrecommended moderation, on the subject of the West-India colonies.
General Gascoynewarmly opposed the amendment. Considering the increase which this country had made of colonial territory, he had long been satisfied that our army had been too much reduced; and he believed that his majesty's government were now as thoroughly convinced of that fact as he was. One of the evil consequences attendant on this excessive reduction was, that it was impossible to relieve our brave regiments abroad as
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they ought to be relieved. Some of them had been eighteeen, twenty, and even twenty-four years absent, without relief. He held in his hand a list of various regiments, no one of which had been less than seventeen years out of their native country; and some of them even twenty-seven. Thus were these brave men banished from their country, for a longer period than if they had been so many felons. The necessity of sending an increased force to the West Indies, had prevented much of the relief which these regiments would otherwise have experienced. Some of the troops sent were shipped off at a fortnight's, some at nine days' notice. Having such extensive colonies as we possessed, we were bound to supply them with such a military force as would ensure the preservation of tranquillity; and we were bound, at the same time, to do our brave troops the justice they so well deserved, and not to make them exiles for life. Another argument used by the hon. member for Aberdeen had been, that it was only necessary to tranquillise Ireland, and that then we should not require the number of troops in that country which were now employed there. True; but how were we to effect this highly desirable object r Had the hon. member suggested any mode of effecting it? If he had done so, had parliament adopted it? It was evident that no plan that had been proposed on the subject had been considered feasible: but, before the tranquillity of Ireland could be thoroughly assured, no one would think of withdrawing the troops which her present condition unhappily rendered necessary. The hon. member had also recommended a reduction of the household troops, and the substitution, if requisite, of the militia and of volunteers. The first could not be effected unless parliament consented to reduce the whole military establishment of the country, which it would not do; and the militia could not be constitutionally employed in the manner recommended by the hon. member, unless in case of invasion. Upon a full consideration of all the circumstances, he rejoiced that his majesty's ministers had seen the necessity of an augmentation of our military force. There was one thing, however, to which he objected; namely, the selecting of officers, in the event of vacancies, from the half-pay. The long procrastinated war, and other circum-

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stances, had induced the admission into the army of many persons unfit, from family or education, for the military profession; and it was not desirable that such a system should be persevered in. It was highly desirable that those officers who were separated from their wives and families, and sent to such a climate as the West Indies, should, in the event of vacancies, be promoted to them, rather than that those vacancies should be filled up from the half-pay.
Mr. Wodehouseexpressed his most anxious hope, that whenever the subject of the West Indies should be introduced, it would be discussed in the most calm and temperate manner. With regard to the condition of some of the regiments stationed in the colonies, it was a subject on which he had strong private and personal feelings; but, let every hon. gentleman who heard him, recollect that what was at present his (Mr. W's) case, might, at another time, be their own. He held in his hand a list of the number of deaths in one of the regiments stationed at Bar-badoes. Since its embarkation from this country it had lost upwards of 20 officers and 500 men. Now, the circumstances under which the regiment was ordered out were these:—It was sent, not as a relief, but as a reinforcement. In consequence of the cry at home for reduction, it was forced out at an unhealthy period of the year; and to that the great mortality which it had experienced was to be attributed. Now, he would ask, whether this was not an occurrence which demanded the most serious consideration? He spoke on the subject from a communication which he had had with an hon. and gallant officer, formerly a member of that House, a man as highly respected as he was universally known—he meant sir Herbert Taylor. The hon. member for Aberdeen had thought proper to say, that those who were on his (Mr. W's) side of the House, followed their leaders without thought or consideration. He, however, for one, although he conscientiously supported his majesty's government on most occasions, had formerly expressed his opinion—an opinion which he still retained—that they bad carried the reduction of our naval and military establishments too far. He did not wish to arrogate to himself any peculiar wisdom: but unquestionably it now appeared, that his majesty's ministers thought with him; and he conceived them to be entitled to
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the gratitude of the country for the augmentation which they had made in our military force. In allusion to the jealousy which the hon. member for Aberdeen had expressed of a great standing army, he would willingly allow that such a jealousy, under certain circumstances, was highly constitutional; but every case must be judged of by its peculiar circumstances; and the real consideration ought always to be, what the various exigencies of the country demanded. He wished that he could place the hon. member for Aberdeen under proper guidance on this subject. He wished that, without irregularity, he could refer him to the opinions expressed in another place by a noble baron, who had not scrupled to declare it to be his opinion, that the augmentation of the military force now proposed by his majesty's government was absolutely necessary. If the hon. member would place himself under the guidance of that noble baron, he need not fear that he should be required to support any unconstitutional principles.
Mr. Bernalwished to say a few words with respect to the quartering of troops in the West Indies, although he was not sure whether that belonged to the noble lord's department or to head quarters. He knew well, however, that, when troops were sent to the West Indies, and especially to Jamaica, by an extreme error or oversight, they were not put in proper quarters, but were kept in the neighbourhood of Port Royal or Kingston, instead of being sent up the country, where the atmosphere was healthy. This was a grave consideration, and ought to be invariably attended to. Another fact was, that the troops were not sent at the proper season of the year. He perfectly agreed with the hon. general who had recently spoken, that the system of relief was not sufficient. But, there had been a system of favouritism very injurious in its character. Particular regiments, under the name of "crack regiments," had been treated with partiality. Until this system of favouritism was destroyed—until all distinctions of corps were abolished—until no difference was made between fusileers and light regiments—the existing evil would not be effectually removed. Of late years, a new practice had obtained of sending dragoons to the East Indies. Of this he approved; and it was a practice which he thought might be extended

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with advantage. On the question of the expediency of a general increase of our military force, he felt some difficulty. He went a long way with the hon. member for Aberdeen, in allowing that, if the circumstances of Ireland were different, we might discharge a great part of our army. But he could not forget, that arrangements had already been made by government for supplying the West Indies with these four thousand additional troops. If the House dissented from; the proposed vote, government would be; thrown into the most distressing dilemma. He should abstain from saying a word of the paramount importance of making the state of the West Indies the subject of the most serious consideration. The time, however, must come when he and all the members of that House, who had an immediate interest in the question, must speak out; for silence, carried too far, became criminal. But while he said this, he begged to say, that no man was more constitutionally jealous than himself of a great increase of our standing army.
Mr. Hobhousesaid, he felt that he owed an apology to the Committee for addressing them on the present occasion, as he, was afraid he must utter sentiments which would appear quite extraordinary, and antiquated in their nature, and which could expect to meet with no sympathy in that House, and he was afraid he should almost be justified in adding, in the country at large. But it was his duty to speak his own conviction on the present important subject. There was one imperative duty on a zealous member of that House, when he saw either a deficiency, or, an excess of popular feeling; namely, to shew the people to what either must lead. This was the duty of those who were connected with his majesty's government; and it was no less the duty of those who thought they were the more faithful representatives of the popular interest. He was one of those who, in the last session of parliament, complained that England did not assume the attitude which, in the then state of Europe, became a great and mighty nation. We were able to give the law to all Europe, and we ought not to have truckled to her tyrants. As his majesty's government had, however, thought proper to decide differently—as they had left Spain to her fate—as they had declined the honour of standing in that attitude, they ought not now to saddle the
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country with the expense. As it was evident that we did not wish for an army to deter tyrants abroad, it was equally evident that we wanted it to keep down the people at home. The House had been told, that it was ridiculous to suppose, in the present day, that this standing army was kept up for any unconstitutional purpose; but, he must look at it as he would at any similar proposition in any other age and in any other country. He knew that standing armies were always employed for similar purposes. Reading our history, as all Englishmen formerly read it, he could never come to the conclusion to which, he was sorry to say, his countrymen seemed generally to have come; namely, to look at an augmentation of the standing army as a matter of course, scarcely worthy of discussion, or only of such a discussion as that which had just taken place. The noble lord came down with a proposition to increase our standing army by 4,000 men, as if that were a mere trifle. Did not the noble lord recollect that, in times of the utmost disturbance, when great changes were apprehended not only in England but throughout Europe, that the augmentation proposed in our military force was only half that now proposed? The noble lord was aware, what a change took place in the prospects of this country, from the year 1792 to 1793. Mr. Pitt, in 1791 and 1792, had almost promised a continuance of peace; but, in 1793, so much was the hemisphere of England overclouded, so necessary was it considered, even by the most dispassionate persons, to provide against the contingencies which might occur, that an augmentation of our military force was generally allowed to be requisite. But, to what amount? Only to the amount of two thousand men. And yet the noble lord, at the present moment, when the House and the country were told in the speech from the throne, that there was no reason to apprehend any danger from foreign aggression, proposed to increase our military force by 4,000 men. And on what pretext? Because there were disturbances in the colonies which required to be allayed. Now, what was the existing military force of the country? We had for England and Ireland a regular force of 42,000 men. If it was necessary to send additional troops to the West Indies, it seemed to him that we could spare some of our home force for

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that purpose. He denied that this would materially disturb our arrangements; and if it were to do so, he should be very glad if he could have disturbed the military arrangements of every government in this country for the last fifty years. To return to the existing force: there were 20,000 troops for England. He recollected that in 1818, when the military estimates were discussed in the committee of supply, the noble lord stated, that although the number of 26,000 was mentioned in the estimates as for the service of England, the fact was, that only 18,000 were actually available. But, at that time, all the manufacturing districts were in a state of disturbance. It would have been hazardous to say that a civil war would not take place in the course of twelve months. Yet the noble lord then thought eighteen thousand men sufficient for the service of England. But now, when according to the king's Speech, there was no danger, foreign or domestic, 20,000 troops were demanded for that service. He really could not conceive how Englishmen, who in former days were accustomed to regard any in crease of the standing army as the fore runner of the overthrow of the constitution, could now submit to be shouldered and elbowed in every street of every town by the military without remonstrance. He was really ashamed to go so far back into our history for examples; but he could not help reminding the House, that Charles the Second proposed a standing army of only 6,000 men; that that was the whole of the military force which that arbitrary monarch endeavoured to impose upon his people; and yet that his pensioned parliament—that parliament which had been branded with the imputation of being ever subservient to his views—was not base enough to permit the existence of so large a force. From the first time that he had opened his mouth in that House, he had always expressed his opinion, that it was necessary to keep a jealous and vigilant guard against the at tempts which were constantly making to increase the standing military force of the country; and, to the latest hour of his life, he should continue to express the same opinion. It must be obvious to every man who would take the trouble to examine it, that nothing could be more dangerous than the success of such at tempts: the history of every country in which they had been effected, proved
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that their natural tendency was the subversion of constitutions; and he had no doubt, that if it was not checked, it would also overturn the constitution of England. The noble lord had not given the House any sufficient reason for the augmentation of the forces which he had proposed. It was not pretended to be necessary for the maintenance of tranquillity. Why, then, were 20,000 men wanted? Why was a greater force necessary at this period of profound repose, than the usurper Cromwell had kept up for the purpose of maintaining by the sword that rule which he had obtained by the sword, and could only maintain by the sword? He did not mean to deny that some force was always necessary from which the reinforcements required for the service of the colonies should be drawn; but it did not follow that such force might not be limited. If, in the year 1818, 18,000 men were found sufficient, why was it proposed now to increase them? And, after all, it was not the number that was so objectionable, as the way in which the noble lord came down to the House, and seemed to consider that the military force of the country must be augmented as a matter of course, whenever his majesty's government thought proper to require it; and that such a proposition, so far from exciting any discussion, ought to be met with compliments on the wisdom of his majesty's governments, and gratitude for the vigilant care which they took of the constitution, and of the liberties of the people. Looking, as he did, with anxiety and jealousy at all attempts like this, he could not help regretting that he had not the valuable assistance of some of his own friends, as well as of other honourable members, who usually expressed themselves unfavourably to such augmentations as that which he was now opposing. The hon. member for Norfolk, who was one of that class of persons commonly most zealous to aid such oppositions—he meant the country gentlemen—and who, if they were not induced by a wiser and more extensive view of the dangers with which a standing military force was fraught, had in general at least a strong instinct which prompted them to the protection of their own interests from the mischievous consequence of such a force—even that hon. member was found to advocate the proposed addition to the standing army.—It was alleged, that the state of Ireland

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rendered a large military force always necessary. Now he called upon the House to consider, that it behoved them to show by their vote of that night, how much they thought it necessary that a change should be made in the system which had been acted upon towards that unfortunate country. He wished most heartily that the government, instead of always attempting to put down the prevailing discontents there by force, would attempt to remove the causes of those discontents. He wished that Ireland should no longer be governed like a conquered country, nor the English inhabitants of it taught to consider themselves as colonists, who could only hold possession of it by means of an extensive faction, arid by the maintenance of an armed force. By the vote of that night, it was proposed to send over 22,000 men to Ireland. Added to these, were 32,000 yeomanry (to say nothing of the militia) exercised once a month; and who, having arms in their own hands, and being associated for their own interests, and conscious that they lived only by the tenure of their swords and bayonets, were ready to act at a moment's notice. There was besides a police of 5,000 men; making upon the whole, exclusive of the militia, 55,000 armed men. And by this simple engine of state, his majesty's government thought they could justify all the wrongs which had so long been inflicted on that unhappy country. Instead of such a step, he would take the liberty of recommending a change of measures; he would take the liberty of recommending an adoption of the principles which had invariably succeeded in the government of great countries; he would take the liberty of recommending a resort to persuasion instead of to force; he would take the liberty of recommending a recourse, not to proscription, but to a general dispensation of the favours of government; he would take the liberty of recommending a return to the principles of the wisest and best of statesmen, and to try if they could not henceforward associate under a civil government, those who had hitherto been kept in a stale of separation under a military one. He begged pardon of the committee for having trespassed so far upon their time, but it was necessary that the public attention should be called to these points. In his opinion, the people of England did not entertain a sufficient degree of constitutional jealousy with, respect to the standing army main-
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tained in this country. His own constituents were, perhaps, as much alive to the interests and liberties of their country as any people in the country; and yet, even they, he feared, were not sufficiently aware of a project which had been going on for the last two years—he meant that of erecting barracks upon the site of the King's Mews, in the very heart of Westminster. It was said, that in that spot which had formerly been devoted to the amusements of the crown, it was now intended to provide for the residence of a force, which might be made to overawe the people, if ever their rights should come in collision with the pretensions of the Crown. He hoped the noble lord would favour him with a categorical answer to the question, whether it was really the intention of government to convert the King's Mews into military barracks? It was necessary, or at least it was fair, that, if this was intended, it should be known; for he could assure the noble lord, that it would make no small stir—he hoped in the metropolis, but certainly in that part of it which was most nearly interested in the subject. Many of his constituents had complained to him of the pecuniary detriment which they experienced by the shutting up the thoroughfare at the Mews. This was certainly unjustifiable; but if, because it had been suffered, the noble lord thought the people would tamely endure the building of barracks wherever the government might think fit, he would find himself mistaken. He knew that the noble lord had; on a former occasion, when speaking on the subject of inland barracks, despised the antiquated authority of Blackstone, and opposed to it the more enlightened wisdom of the present age.—He begged pardon for the length at which he had troubled the committee on this subject; but he could not suffer the opportunity which was now afforded him of expressing his opinions on the augmentation of the military force—opinions which, even if he should have the misfortune to hold them singly, he was nevertheless convinced, were such as deeply concerned the preservation of the constitution. The absence of many of the hon. members who usually supported the view which he had taken of the question, was among the many lamentable proofs of the habit of supineness and insensibility to this subject, which was gradually creeping on where it had never before been found. He should vote with his hon. friend for the proposed amend-

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ment; and if it had been extended to sending the whole army out of England, and leaving the country under the protection of the civil power only, he would have no less willingly supported it.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, that as far as he had been able to collect the opinion of the House, the hon. members for Westminster and Aberdeen were the only gentlemen who intended to oppose the vote; it was therefore unnecessary for him to enter further into the discussion, than to answer some of the objections which they had raised. In the first place, the hon. member for Aberdeen had seemed to consider the reinforcements for the West-India service necessary; for although he had in the early part of his speech denied this, he had afterwards conceded it. But he had said, that he consented to the estimates of the last year, only because it was then expected that the country might be engaged in a war, and that but for that probability he would have proposed a reduction to the amount of 10,000 men. The hon. gentleman might, perhaps, allude to an opinion entertained by himself and his friends; but the noble lord said, he felt it necessary, on his own part, to declare, that such an expectation formed no part of the grounds on which he had solicited the vote of last year. On the contrary, the government had then declared its resolution of remaining strictly neutral, and he could not believe that the House had been induced to agree to the vote for any such reason: he was quite sure that none such had been proposed by him. What were the means by which the hon. gentleman would have the reduction, which he recommended effected? Why, he was of opinion, that if certain measures were adopted the military force at present in Ireland might be withdrawn and applied to the reinforcement of the colonial service. Now, did any man in his senses believe, that if the Catholic question were set at rest to-morrow, it would have such a magic effect upon Ireland, that the force employed there might be safely removed at once—The hon. member had next proposed, that a reduction should be made in the cavalry and the guards. He (lord P.) was prepared to contend, that there was not a larger number of men in those regiments than was fairly proportioned to the infantry of the line; and that it was impossible to reduce them without also reducing the efficiency of that establishment, which even in time of peace, it was necessary to keep up, that armies might be
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formed if war should break out.—The hon. member had next alluded to the militia and yeomanry: but he must know very well, that neither of those forces could in any way be made serviceable for colonial reinforcements. Still, if nothing could be deducted from any of these sources, the hon. member had maintained that the augmentation of the army might be effected at a less expense, and that instead of six new regiments, additions might be made to the old ones. He (lord P.) was quite aware that large regimental establishments were less expensive, in proportion than small ones; but, from the nature of the colonies, and the manner in which the forces were distributed, an addition of fifty men to each regiment, although it would increase the numerical force of the establishment, would not add to its disposable force; because the addition would be made, in many places where it was not wanted, and in others it would be inadequate. The expense at which the new regiments were made was only that of the officers; and this it must be remembered, was less than it might seem to be; for they were supplied from the half-pay list, and the additional expense was therefore only the difference between full and half pay; which was not, as the term would imply, one half, but in some instances a third, and in others only a fourth.—The hon. member under the gallery (Mr. Bernal) had complained, that the system of quartering troops in the West Indies was not sufficiently attended to. The healthiness of the barracks had, ho w-ever, long occupied the attention of the government, and great pains had been taken by sending competent medical men to examine them, to procure the best opinions respecting each station. He was aware that some stations had been found unfavourable to the health of the troops. The government had been engaged in making arrangements with the legislative body of the island of Jamaica, to alter those stations; and although some difficulties had arisen, he could assure the House that the subject had been by no means lost sight of. With respect to the time and season at which troops were sent to the West Indies, it was true, that it was extremely desirable the reinforcements should arrive there at particular periods of the year. The regiment to which his hon. friend (Mr. Wodehouse) had alluded had unavoidably been sent under very unfavourable circumstances; but this was

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one of the prejudical consequences arising from the force in the colonies being brought to so low an amount, that, when a reinforcement became immediately necessary, there were no means of supplying it, but by sending a regiment from home, when perhaps the Government could not control the period of its arrival. The hon. member for Westminster had said, that he was in the sole possession of peculiar opinions on the subject before the House. He did not think, from the hon. member's arguments of this evening that he was at all likely to lose the possession of those opinions; and for his own part, as he would not willingly rob the hon. member of the exclusive credit to which they were entitled, he should say not a word against them. It was by no means his wish to ridicule that proper constitutional jealousy with which the people of England had always regarded the establishment of a standing army; but he would put it to the hon. gentleman, or to those who were sincere admirers and well-wishers of the constitution, whether it would not be better to reserve the expression of their opinions on the subject to a fit opportunity, and whether they did not, in fact, throw ridicule on the cause they wished to support, by introducing those opinions upon occasions to which they did not apply.
Mr. Hobhousesaid, that the noble lord, for the purpose of rounding a period, had exaggerated what had fallen from him. He did not say that he was in the sole possession of the opinions he had expressed; and, at all events, the noble lord might have done justice to the conscientious motives which prompted that expression, even though it had been as ill-timed as he seemed to think it. He was quite satisfied, notwithstanding the ridicule which the noble lord thought his (Mr. H's.) injudicious support had thrown upon constitutional principles, that they remained unhurt by it. He was sure he had done those principles as little harm by his support, as the noble lord had done by his attack.
Colonel Daviesthought the estimate an extravagant one, but he was still not prepared to go the full length of the motion.
Mr. Humesaid, that the only opposition to his amendment had been made on the part of military men, and whoever expected that military men would support a reduction of the army? He could not but regret that the constitutional jealousy which had formerly prevailed against a standing army seemed to have altogether
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ceased. The empty benches which he saw around him bore too strong evidence of the fact. The ministers, left at their own discretion, proposed to uphold a standing army of no less than 82,000 men; and that, too, in a time of profound peace. He, however, left his amendment with the committee, satisfied that he had done his duty.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, he differed with his hon. friend as to the propriety of a reduction of ten thousand men. He thought he could convince his hon. friend, that the amendment was not tenable. The only reduction which he could with any chance of success, propose, would be in the amount of the proposed augmentation. His hon. friend had said, that this was a constitutional question. Undoubtedly it was a constitutional question; and so it had for years, been urged, on his side of the House to be; until at length, a reduction of the military force to that point, below which it could not with safety to the country be reduced, had taken place. The absence of hon. members could not be defended; but, undoubtedly, if their absence could be at all excused, it was on a question on which they had so often stated their sentiments, and had succeeded in reducing the military force to that standard, which, in their judgment, was necessary for the public safety. His hon. friend had said, that an hon. gentleman was not a fit juror on the present question. To him (Mr. C.), however, no objection of the kind could be made. He conceived himself a fit juror, and his verdict certainly should be against his hon. friend.
The committee divided. For the original motion, 102; for Mr. Hume's amendment, 10.

List of the Minority.

Grattan, J.

Palmer, C. F.

Guise, sir W. B.

Wood, M.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Williams, W.

Johnson, col.

Wilkins, W.

Ingilby, sir W.

TELLER.

Monck, J. B.

Hume, J.

NAVY ESTIMATES.
Sir G. Clerkhaving moved, "That 57,670 l. 15 s. be granted for defraying the salaries and contingent expenses of the Navy-office for the year 1824,"
Mr. Humetook that opportunity of calling the attention of the hon. baronet to a subject which was connected with the vote before the committee. He un-

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derstood, that great dissatisfaction existed among the lower class of workmen in the dock-yards, on account of the reduction which had been made in their wages since the conclusion of the war; which reduction they conceived to be much greater in proportion to the amount of their wages, than the reduction which had taken place in the salaries of the persons who held situations above them. He did not know whether the attention of government had been called to the circumstance; but he had received information to the effect which he had stated.
Sir G. Clerkcontended, that the workmen had no just ground of dissatisfaction. Until about a year ago the quantity of work had been reduced, instead of diminishing the wages or discharging the men; but the system had been recently changed, and a general reduction of 20 per cent in the price of labour had been effected.
On the resolution, "That 507,000 l. be granted for defraying the charge for timber stores," &c.
Mr. Humebegged to know, whether any remedy had been discovered, and what had been the result of the recent experiments to put a stop to the progress of the dry-rot in the navy?
Sir B. Martinsaid, that there was less dry-rot in the navy at present than at any former period. Immersion of the wood in salt water was now practised, and the use of coal-tar discontinued. For the latter circumstance he was sorry; because he believed the use of coal-tar to be attended with good effects. It was quite certain that the dry-rot had greatly decreased since the termination of the war; and he was convinced that the ships which had been built since that period would be of longer duration than any which had been constructed before. In consequence of the allusion which had been made on a former occasion to Mr. Burridge's book on the dry-rot, he had taken the trouble to read that work through, and he did not hesitate to say that it was fallacious from the beginning to the end.
Mr. Humeobserved, that he could not vouch for the truth of all that Mr. Bur-ridge had advanced, but there certainly were some of his statements which deserved to be seriously considered, and he intended to bring them under the notice of the House at a future period. He wished to receive information on two other points; namely, whether the U6e of foreign timber had been abandoned in ship-
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building; and whether, in the contracts which had been made by government, it had been stipulated, that the timber should be felled in winter instead of the summer?
Sir B. Martinsaid, that government had contracted for both foreign and native timber, but that no stipulation had been made that it should be felled at any particular period. When the hon. member should bring the subject of the dry-rot before the House, he would show that the dry-rot had been most destructive to our shipping during the last hundred and fifty years, and that it had only begun to disappear since the conclusion of the war.
Sir J. Wrottesleysaid, that the answers to the numerous inquiries he had made upon the subject showed, that the durability of timber was much greater if it were felled in the winter, when the sap was down, than in the spring when it was rising, or in the summer, when it was up.
On the resolution, "That 52,809 l. 19 s. 1d. be granted for the salaries of the officers, and the contingent expenses of the Foreign yards, for the year 1824,"
Mr. Humewished to be informed whether any persons had been sent out to Bermuda to report on the extensive works going on there, and if so, what had been the result?
Sir G. Clerkanswered, that Mr. Jessop had been sent out, and that he had given a very favourable report of the place, as a station for shipping.
Mr. Humeasked, whether any other report had been made?
Sir G. Clerksaid, that the report of Mr. Jessop was so satisfactory, and he was a man of so much skill and knowledge, that no other information was needed.
Mr. Brightconsidered the naval establishment in Bermuda of the utmost importance, and he had some doubts whether ministers were about to ask for money enough to continue the works. It would be thirteen or fourteen years' before they would be completed; and as in the event of war, the island might be easily taken, it was very material that as soon as possible it should be put in a state of defence. He begged to inquire if ministers had done any thing with regard to the settlements made by the United States in the South of Florida? He did not desire, however, that any inconvenient disclosures on the subject should be made.
Sir G. Cockburnsaid, that although of course this country could not object to the United States making any establishment they pleased upon the coast of Florida, yet that ministers, as was their duty, had kept a watchful eye upon their proceedings. Thus much he felt himself at liberty to say.
On the resolution, "That 911,000 l. be granted for half-pay to naval officers for the year 1824,"
Mr. Calcraftbegged to observe, that he thought the case of the midshipmen was a very hard one as to half-pay. "Whatever had been their services, or however they might be entitled by their skill and merit, it was often totally out of the power of the Admiralty to grant them any promotion. Now, it appeared to him, that it would be but fair and expedient, to select a certain number of midshipmen, on the principle, for example, of length of service. At present, very many in this class of officers were obliged to turn their attention to some other employment for subsistence, and thus, meritorious individuals though they might be, they were lost to the service for ever. He conceived that a certain proportion might be selected, to whom half-pay should be given (and the whole amount could be but small), as a retaining fee, whenever the country might require their services.
Sir G. Clerksaid, that the subject was one of great importance, and had occupied the attention of the Admiralty; but there were many difficulties in the way of it, and he was sure that the particular mode suggested by the hon. member could not be adopted. He might add, that many promotions had of late been made by the Admiralty to lieutenancies, on the ground of length of service alone, and that in this way all the midshipmen had been promoted who had passed examination down to the year 1814.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, he was not at all tenacious as to the mode in which the purpose he had in view was effected: but he certainly thought, that in some way or other, provision should be made for a certain number of midshipmen; and he was convinced that no objection would be made by parliament to a vote of 5 or 6,000 l. for a moderate half-pay for this useful class.
Sir G. Cockburnreturned thanks as a naval officer, rather than as a member of the Admiralty board, to the hon. member, for the attention which he uniformly paid
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to the navy, and particularly to the meritorious class of officers he had mentioned. The subject was one of great importance; but, as his hon. colleague had said, it was beset with difficulties.
Mr. Humewished to know, as to the naval officers on half-pay in general, whether they were in the same situation now as they were after the American war—whether, for instance, a lieutenant or other officer could command, or take any situation, in merchant vessels, and under what limitation, without running the hazard of losing his commission?
Sir G. Clerksaid, that a lieutenant might command a merchant vessel, with the leave of the Admiralty. The leave of the Admiralty was necessary; because, by the regulations of the half-pay, which had existed ever since the reign of Geo. 2nd, the officers of the navy on half-pay were obliged to reside at a sea port; but the leave was freely granted, with the exception of the command of small packets where hire was taken for passengers; which was thought to be below the dignity of an officer holding the rank of lieutenant in the navy.
Mr. Hume.—Did the same regulation as to packets exist at the end of the American war?
Sir G. Clerk.—Exactly the same.
Mr. Hume.—I understand that very considerable fees are taken on the leave granted.
Sir G. Clerk.—A fee is taken.
Mr. Hume.—This is a great hardship on the officers of the navy, and should be done away with. There was a return some time ago, of 19,000 l. fees taken in this way. Officers of the army applying for leave, pay no fees. Why, then, should officers of the navy be subjected to such a tax? The honourable and gallant officer opposite had been understood upon a former night to say, that masters of the navy had not been more generally promoted, on account of their not being able to pass their examinations. Now, he (Mr. H.) considered this class of officers to be a highly meritorious set of men. He found their total number as it stood in the last list, to be 551; since which list, 76 had been set aside. Perhaps it would be better to retain them for the service of the public, against their experience and talents might be needed. There were now left, therefore, 475 masters, 250 of whom were at present employed in the merchant service, or sub-

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sisting on the very small half-pay allowed them. If these men should be wanted, so small was the encouragement held out to them, that it might be a question how far they would be disposed to return to the service. Theirs appeared a case of considerable hardship.
Sir G. Cockburnobserved, that if he had been represented to have said what had just been imputed to him by the hon. member, he could only say, that if persons would look for information to that source which was constantly, and for the purpose, giving a wrong representation of what fell from gentlemen in that House, he was not answerable for such error. What he really did say, on a former night, was, that the masters of the navy were a most useful set of men. It was then observed to him, that originally, every master who chose it, and was judged sufficiently qualified, might rise to the rank of lieutenant; but that that sort of promotion was now put a stop to. His answer had been, that masters could still be promoted, and were now occasionally promoted; and that at one time only, an interval of two years, occurring about 20 years since, had this rule been interrupted. That with regard to other persons rising to be masters, and he meant seamen of course, no other restriction was imposed upon their promotion, but their sustaining a very strict examination as to ability. This was what he had stated at the time; and if he had been wrongly reported, as he generally was, it was no fault of his.
Mr. Humesaid, he had seen no report of the hon. and gallant officer's speech; but such had been his understanding.
The several resolutions were then put and agreed to.

GAME LAWS.
Lord Suffield, not having been in the House yesterday when a noble earl called their lordships' attention to the Game Laws, wished now to say a few words on that subject. When the question as to altering the laws had formerly been agitated, it was alleged, that sufficient evidence for forming an opinion did not exist. He wished, therefore, to remind their lordships, that they had before them the report made to the House of Commons last session. That report had also been ordered to be printed for the use of their lordships House, and was accessible to them. However, when the bill for altering the game laws might come, as he expected it would, it was possible that some noble lord might even then insist that the evidence was not

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sufficient. In that case it would be but candid in any noble lord who might entertain such an opinion, to move for the appointment of a committee to hear further evidence. This would be the proper course for those to take who were not yet satisfied on the subject; but, if no proposition for the appointment of a committee should be brought forward, it would be most unfair, in the progress of the bill, to raise any objection on the ground of want of evidence. He agreed in opinion with the noble earl who addressed their lordships yesterday, that the legalizing of the sale of game would not diminish it; but, so enormous were the evils produced by the present system, that he would give his support to the proposed alteration, though its effect were to be to sweep every head of game from the face of the earth.