Sitting of 14 April 1824

COMBINATION LAWS.
Lord Stanleypresented a petition from Bolton against the repeal of the Combination Laws.
Mr. Humeexpressed a wish that those persons who opposed the repeal of the Combination laws, would give evidence before the committee in support of their views. The committee had now sat a considerable time, and no evidence whatever had been produced in favour of those laws.
Lord Stanleysaid, he had already presented two petitions, praying that the
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laws prohibiting the exportation of machinery might not be repealed. Considering the alarming extent to which combinations were carried in the manufacturing districts, there were obvious reasons why the master manufacturers should not come forward and expose themselves to personal risk, by giving evidence of the mischief that had already arisen from combinations, and the danger to which they would be exposed by the repeal of the existing laws.
Mr. Mansfieldsaid, he could not hear, without much regret, the observation of the hon. member, as to master manufacturers being intimidated by their workmen, and consequently prevented from stating their opinion of the Combination laws before a committee of that House. He begged to state, that no such feeling prevailed between masters and their workmen in the place which he had the honour to represent. The most respectable-master manufacturers in Leicester concurred in opinion with their workmen, that the Combination laws ought to be repealed. He was sorry to hear that such hostile feelings prevailed between masters and their workmen in any part of the country; and he was satisfied that they had been produced by the very laws which the workmen were anxious to repeal.
Mr. Philipscould not concur with the hon. member, that the ferocious character of the combinations in Lancashire had been produced by the Combination laws themselves. That those laws were ineffectual, as a remedy for evils against which they were intended to provide, he was ready to admit; but he could not agree that they were the cause of the enormities produced by combinations among workmen. Combinations did not, for the most part, take place while wages were low, but when wages were high. The most ferocious combinations had taken place in Glasgow and Manchester when the rate of wages amounted to from 30 s. to 50 s. a week.
Ordered to lie on the table.

HIDES AND SKINS REPEAL BILL.
Mr. Lushingtonrose to move for the repeal of certain acts relating to the Flaying of Hides and Skins. The considerations which induced him to move for the repeal of these acts were, that they were unnecessary, vexatious, expensive, and unjust; and he was sure they would appear so to any one who examined them. They

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were unnecessary, because the butchers required no laws to make them take care of their own property; they were vexatious, because they rendered the property of persons in that trade liable to constant inspection; they were expensive, because they were attended with heavy penalties; and they were unjust, because they operated unequally on the town and country dealer. Under these circumstances, he thought they should not be allowed to remain on the Statute-book. He should, therefore, move for leave to bring in a bill, "to repeal two acts of the 39th and 40th of his late majesty, relating to the use of horse hides in making boots and shoes, and for better preventing the damaging of raw hides and skins in the flaying thereof."
Mr. Jamesthought there could not be two opinions on the subject. The two acts ought by all means to be repealed.
Mr. Maberlyobjected to the mode in which the hon. gentleman seemed disposed to proceed with respect to the repeal of these laws. His object seemed to be to exonerate the town trader, but to leave the laws respecting the country trader in all their oppressive operations. The best course to have pursued would have been to have moved for a committee up stairs. He would venture to affirm, that it would have been distinctly proved by evidence before that committee, that so far from those laws being unnecessary, they had been the means of. preserving one-fifth of the whole of this material. If what were called long stripes were wanted, the hides were frequently rendered unfit for the purpose of obtaining them in consequence of the negligence of the butcher. He was far from denying that the law, as it stood, did not require modification; but he contended, that no alteration in it ought to be attempted, until the whole question had been considered in detail.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, that on looking at the acts which it was intended to repeal, he found that they were not public acts. He recommended his hon. friend, therefore, when his bill should come to the stage of the committee, to move that it be referred to the consideration of a select committee above stairs. Of this he was quite persuaded, that should the measure be discussed in a committee of the whole House, endless petitions would be presented against it, and much valuable lime would be lost.
General Gascoyneobserved, that the hon. mover had shown no reasons whatever for repealing the existing law. There could be no doubt, in his mind, that the measure ought to undergo a thorough investigation in a committee; and he was persuaded, that if the hon. gentleman's bill should pass into a law, a year would not elapse before the House would be glad to get rid of it. The general hostility entertained in the country to the proposed repeal, had been sufficiently manifested by the petitions which had already been presented on the subject, all expressing the decided conviction of the petitioners, that the repeal of the existing law would be attended by serious inconveniences.
Sir R. Fergussonmaintained the expediency of repealing the existing law. What did that law do? Fine a man for injuring his own property! Suppose, by any unfortunate accident, the gallant general who had just spoken, were to make a hole in his pantaloons, how would he like to be fined for the misadventure? The existing law proceeded on the ridiculous supposition, that the tanners did not know their own business.
Mr. Brightwished to know whether the hon. mover of the bill would consent to its going before a select committee above stairs.
Mr. J. Martinwas also desirous to know whether the hon. gentleman would consent to allow the subject to be previously investigated before a select committee, or would send the bill to such a committee in its progress. The first course would, in his opinion, be the best. The proposal for repealing the existing law had created a great sensation among those who were interested in the subject; and it was due to them, that the expediency of the measure should be satisfactorily ascertained.
Mr. Lushingtonexpressed his persuasion, that if the subject were referred to a committee, so much delay would take place, that it would be impracticable to: get the bill through parliament in the course of the present session. Convinced as he was, that the matter was perfectly clear, he thought it was too much to ask him to submit to such an inconvenience.
Mr. Curwenadmitted that the existing acts were abominably unjust and injurious, but strongly recommended that the subject should undergo the previous examination of a committee.
Mr. Curteismaintained, that the present law was most inconvenient and ridiculous. If a butcher's boy, in killing a pig, happened to make a mistake in the manner of doing it; and if the inspector on the spot declared that he had killed it improperly, then, according to the present law, a high tribunal was formed, consisting of eight and twenty persons; namely, seven butchers, seven tanners, seven curriers, and seven shoemakers, before whom the matter was brought for adjudication.
Lord Cliftonsupported the repeal of the present law.
The House divided: Ayes 52; Noes 6.