Sitting of 21 March 1823

WAREHOUSING BILL.—
Mr. Wallacemoved the order of the day for going into a committee on this bill.
Mr. Robertsonbelieved, as far as he had been able to ascertain the general feeling of the commercial interests in this country, that there was not a single exception taken to the principle of this bill. But, though it was of vital consequence to the empire in itself, its machinery was such as would be very likely to destroy all its good effect. The object of the bill was, to allow foreign manufactures and produce to come into our warehouses, and to go out of them again, with the greatest possible facility: so that foreign commerce might be carried on in this country, with greater advantage than it could be in others. The unnecessary caution, however, which government had manifested to secure the revenue, tended to destroy the advantages which would otherwise accrue from it. This was the complex part of the bill—when foreign goods were deposited in our warehouses, those who exported them again were, by law, required to give bond for such exportations taking place; and this was usually done by the merchant, captain, or some other efficient authority. Now, when the vessel in which they were exported was once fairly out of our ports, he conceived that these goods were in just the same situation as if they had never been in our warehouses; and, therefore, that no further protection or precaution; on the part of government, was necessary. So much of the bill as recognized this principle he quite approved of; but the government not content with this, called upon all the other nations of the earth to protect our revenue. Now, what had the merchant of the continent of Europe, or the merchant of

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Asia, to do with our revenue? Under this bill, when the foreign merchant took the goods out of the warehouse, he engaged, upon oath, to certify, that they should be landed precisely at that foreign port which the bond specified they were to be exported to. The consequence was frequently this—when the vessel arrived at such foreign port, she found the market already glutted with the kind of produce she carried; but she was obliged to land her cargo, and was not permitted to sail to some other port without breaking bulk. He conceived that this defect might easily be remedied, by the master or other efficient person's giving a bond that such goods should not be re-landed in this country. Then, as to our colonies. Vessels carrying out foreign goods to the colonies were required to pay the duties before they sailed. It was to be recollected, that our colonies stood in a very different situation from what they did two years ago; for their ports were now opened for the importation of foreign goods. Then, if the duties were to be paid on such goods here, how could they, on arriving in the colonies, stand a cent petition with those which did not come from the mother country? He warmly approved of the principle of the bill, and was desirous that it should be rendered as complete as possible.
Mr. Brightwas very desirous that the committee upon the bill should stand over until after Easter, in order that its provisions might be circulated among those to whom the subject was of great importance.
Mr. Wallacesaid, he was not prepared to hear any objections on the score of hon. gentlemen being taken by surprise. The bill had been already printed five times over; and he now proposed the committee in pursuance of a distinct pledge which he had given to an hon. gentleman opposite, that the measure should be brought on at an early period of the session, to give time for mature discussion through all its stages.
Mr. S. Wortleydenied that individuals who were interested in the bill had had sufficient opportunity of ascertaining how far their interests were affected by it. The merchants at Leeds had called a meeting upon the subject, conceiving that a part of the bill was calculated materially to injure them. He was desirous of delay until the result of that meeting should be ascertained.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the bill, with the exception of one clause, was the same as that of last year. That clause was an exception in favour, or, as he should say, in disfavour, of silk and linen goods. The House, last session, had suggested, however, that such a clause should be introduced. Now, he understood the hon. member for Yorkshire to wish that woollens should be included in the same exception; and in that case the hon. member would have ample opportunity to press the introduction of a provision to that effect, in the subsequent stages of the bill. He, nevertheless, conceived that the hon. gentle, man's constituents took a very bad view of their interests.
Mr. K. Douglasdid not conceive there was any ground for apprehension on the part of the persons interested in the woollen trade. We, at present, exported woollens to the amount of 7,000,000 l. annually, of which 3,000,000 l. were exported to continental Europe, 2,000,000 l. to America, and 1,200,000 l. to the, East Indies. He did not conceive, therefore, that we were in much danger from foreign competition. The present measure, he was persuaded, would be extremely beneficial.
Mr. Benett,of Wilts, was persuaded, that the general principle of the bill was excellent. He feared, however, that the framers of it had got into a hobble, by listening to the representations of the persons concerned in the silk-trade. If they persevered in that part of the bill, he should move a similar exemption, in favour of woollens.
Mr. Marryatconsidered this bill of the utmost importance to the country. He thought the prejudices which seemed to exist against it very extraordinary. It did not touch our manufactures; but affected only foreign goods that had been brought into our markets. The revenue, which it was calculated took one-fourth of what was earned and expended by every body in the kingdom, was mainly interested in the bill. There was scarcely a kingdom of Europe into which British goods might not be imported, and from which they might not be exported; and the consequence was, that there they could most easily make up assorted cargoes of any description. Hence it had hitherto happened, that foreign merchants had been able to supply foreign markets to much greater advantage than we could.

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To remedy this defect the bill had been framed.
Mr. T. Wilsonsaid, the reason of the exceptive clause was obvious. Why was the exception made in favour of silk?—because the duties on silk were so enormously high. Why was the exception made in favour of linens?—because the distresses of Ireland had induced the legislature to manifest some feeling for her want of capital. It would be unfair not to extend the same exemption to the woollen trade, as long as it was subjected to the present tax. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman on the general principle of the bill; but he thought it was straining it too far not to allow that there were peculiar cases which ought to be exempted from its operation. If no other member should anticipate him, he would move in the committee, that the word "woollen" should follow the word "linen."
Mr. Philipssaid, the exceptions in favour of silks and linen were only made to meet existing prejudices. It was matter of notoriety, that our commerce had suffered seriously in consequence of the want of a more liberal policy. He had made inquiries respecting the woollen trade, and had learned, that it was in a progressive state of improvement, and could maintain a competition in the foreign market. He objected to the tax upon wool as strongly as any man could do, and would support a motion for repealing it; but he could not give his approbation to any measure which should have for its object to continue the law in its present state.
Mr. Dominic Brownesaid, he would divide the House, unless the right hon. gentleman would allow the bill to be recommitted after the holidays.
Sir H. Parnellwas of opinion, that the bill would be very beneficial to the Irish trade, as it would make a greater opening for the linen manufactures of that country than at present existed.
Sir J. Newport,having on former occasions opposed the principle of a free trade, took the earliest opportunity of declaring, that he considered the opinions Which he had formerly entertained upon that subject to be quite erroneous, and had arrived at the conviction, that the trade of Ireland would be greatly improved by throwing it quite open. An opinion in favour of a free trade, was fast gaining around in that country.
Sir. M. W. Ridleysaid, that the House
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ought to look at the general principles of the bill, and not refrain from proceeding on account of objections being made to some of its details. Particular interests might be partially injured by the operation of the bill, but he was of opinion, that the measure, taken altogether, would be highly beneficial to the commerce of the country.
Mr. Ricardowas of opinion, that the bill was founded on a sound and judicious principle, and one which ought to prevail throughout our commercial code. The country was greatly indebted to the right hon. gentleman for his efforts to liberalize the system of trade. It was impossible to make a law which would not interfere with the interests of some classes; but the one before the House, while it was calculated to advance the public welfare, interfered as little as possible with particular interests.
Mr. Humecalled the attention of the right hon. gentleman to the severe duty of 3 per cent, which was levied by the Levant Company, to the great prejudice of the Turkish trade, and hoped he would take that grievance into consideration. As to the bill, it was his opinion, that it ought to have no exceptions. It was favourable to the general interests of the country, and he would therefore give it his decided support.
The House divided: For going into a Committee, 82; Against it, 8.

List of the Minority.

Benett, J.

Sumner, H.

Bright, H.

Tulk, C. A.

Dickinson, W.

Fane, J.

TELLERS.

Grattan, J.

Browne, D.

Smith, W.

Wortley, S.

The House then went into the committee. After some discussion, Mr. S. Wortley's Amendment, that woollens, as well as silks and linens, should be exempted from the operation of the bill, was negative the remaining clauses of the bill were gone through, and the House resumed.

BEER DUTIES ACTS.—
The House having resolved itself into a committee on these acts,
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he did not intend at that late hour to go into the details of the subject which he had to submit to the committee. The course he would now pursue was, to propose certain resolutions for the adoption of the committee. If they were agreed

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to, he should afterwards bring in a bill in accordance with them, and have it read a first time and printed, in order that the House and the country might have an opportunity of considering its provisions, previous to the general discussion of the measure after the recess. The main object of the bill was, to afford the poorer classes an improved sort of beer, at a cheaper rate than they now paid for it, and by that means to add to their comfort; while the consequent increase in the consumption of beer and malt would contribute to benefit the agricultural and other interests of the state. At present there were two duties payable on two sorts of beer; the one was a duty of 10 s. per barrel on strong beer, the other a duty of 2s. per barrel on table beer. Formerly there was an intermediate duty upon an intermediate quality of beer. It was subsequently found necessary to give that up; because it allowed considerable opportunities for evading the higher duties on the one band, and on the other there arose a great prejudice to the consumer. It was obvious, that persons having two qualities of beer at different rates of duty in their cellars, might bring them up, and sell the composition as if all the beer had paid the high duty, and thereby the revenue suffered, while the consumer was far from being a gainer. In short, he paid full duty for a very inferior article. The consequence of doing away this intermediate quality of beer was, to compel the poor man, who could not afford to brew his own beer, to have recourse to that of the highest quality and rate of duty. It was therefore desirable to revert again upon some fair system, to an intermediate quality of beer. But means must be taken to prevent fraud. It was right to fix some price, beyond which the intermediate duty should not be carded. It seemed also necessary to restrain the sale, so far as to prevent the intermediate quality of beer from being consumed on the premises where it should be purchased. It should be competent to any person to take out a licence for the sale of beer or ale, of quality not exceeding in price 27 s. the barrel;—the duty on which should be only 5s. per barrel. The condition would he, that the article should not be consumed on the premises of the seller, in order to prevent frauds. Moreover, he did not think it wise to put an end to the present method of brewing and licenced public houses; and it would be to sufficient advantage to the brewer and
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vender of the intermediate quality of beer, to be allowed to sell any quantity under his licence down to a pint. These were considerable advantages over the publican, because they would not need the licence which the latter was required to take out by the law, and they would be from under the control of the magistrates; and this was another reason for not allowing the beer to be consumed on the premises. The small beer at 18 s. was brewed at the rate of seven barrels from a quarter of malt. The modified duty would allow only five barrels to the quarter, and with 5s. a barrel duty, the beer, which would he a reasonably good article, might be sold for 2½d. per pot. This was a fair rate, and ought to produce a wholesome beverage for those who were now unable to pay for the beer charged with the high duty. He anticipated from this measure considerable advantage to the consumer and the grower of barley; and he flattered himself no prejudice would be suffered by the great breweries and their public houses. He said this, because, though he was opposed to all monopolies; yet, considering the great increase of taxation in the last five and twenty years, and that many measures had been adopted on sudden exigencies with a view to that increase which had led to a particular application of capital to particular branches of trade, he was prepared to admit, that the monopoly in beer was purely incidental. He wished, therefore, to adopt the most cautious mode of returning to a freer trade, and could not but feel anxious that the capital invested in this way should be put to as little danger and inconvenience as possible. He flattered himself, that the measure which he had to propose would fully answer all the purposes which he had mentioned, and should conclude with moving,

1. "That there shall be levied and paid an excise duty of 5s. for every barrel, containing 36 gallons ale measure, of beer or ale which shall be brewed in Great Britain for sale, and which shall be brewed in the proportion of not less than 5 barrels, containing 36 gallons each, of such beer or ale, nor more than 5½ of such barrels, for and from each and every quarter of malt which shall be used for the brewing thereof, and which shall be sold in any quantity at one time, of 9 gallons or upwards, at a rate or price not exceeding 27 s. the barrel, or which shall be sold in any quantity at one time of

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less than 9 gallons thereof, at a rate or price not exceeding 10 d. the gallon.

2. "That every brewer of such beer or ale shall take out an excise licence, authorizing such persons to brew such beer or ale, and shall pay duty for every such licence at and after the same rate as is by law imposed on excise licences to common brewers of strong beer.

3. "That every seller and retailer of such beer or ale, at any place detached from the entered premises where the same is brewed, and not being sold for consumption on the premises or place where sold, shall take out an excise licence, and shall pay for the same the sum of 1l. 1s."

Alderman Wood,on behalf of the 48,000 publicans of Great Britain, 2,000 of which were among his constituents, objected to the measure. He thought it particularly hard, that at least these persons, who had altogether 23 millions of property in their leases, houses, furniture, and stock in trade, should not be allowed to sell the beer of the new quality, as well as other people.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he did not mean to prevent brewers from manufacturing beer of the intermediate duality; but it was obvious, that they could not be allowed to do it on the same premises with their old trade. There must be some precautions to secure the revenue.
Mr. Buxtonthought that the measure was one of an inequitable kind. It appeared, however, to be the wish of the agriculturists, the wish of the public, and—what was beyond the other two put together—the wish of the chancellor of the exchequer, that it should pass. The brewers and publicans had, therefore, nothing left, but to yield with the best possible grace. He thought, however, that the right hon. gentleman ought to impose the duty more fairly.
The resolutions were agreed to.

NATIONAL DEBT REDUCTION BILL.—
On the order of the day for going into a committee on this bill,
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, it was not his intention to go into a long discussion, as the subject of the national debt, so far as regarded the application of a sinking fund, had been frequently under the consideration of the House, though he knew that many persons, who originally supported the principle of a sinking fund, entertained doubts of the correctness of the opinions which they had formerly entertained on the subject. But, being called upon by his public duty to do so, he had particularly turned his attention to the question, and he had never seen any reason to alter the opinion he had formed of the expediency of the measures adopted in 1786, and remodelled in 1792. He wait sure that no person who considered that a war had intervened which had continued for 22 years, could be surprised that all the consequences which had been anticipated had not resulted from the measures then adopted. He did not propose into prove, that the principle had been carried into full effect; but, notwithstanding all that he had heard, he was prepared to assert, that the country had possessed one great means of carrying on the war, by its endeavour to give effect to the principle of the sinking fund. When, however, a period of peace arrived, it became necessary to get rid of the artificial system which had till then been acted upon, to simplify the public accounts, and to establish a real sinking fund upon its only true basis—an excess of income over expenditure. With this view, the
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House of Commons considered the subject, and certain resolutions were adopted, which formed the basis of the bill now before their lordships. That basis was, that there should be a clear surplus of income of not less than 5,000,000 l. to be applied to the reduction of the national debt. When the resolutions of the House of Commons came before their lordships he had stated his views on the subject, which were, that a sinking fund should be left to accumulate till it amounted to the one hundredth part of the national debt; after which it would be for parliament to consider whether it had arrived at the point when it might be proper to deal With it in another manner. It was admitted that it was desirable that this should be Combined with a simplification of the a accounts, and that borrowing by government from the fund should be done away with, and such a system adopted as would at once show what the sinking fund really was. This had been delayed until the present moment; and their lordships had now before them the bill founded on the two principles to which he had referred. At the commencement of the present year it was found there was a clear surplus of revenue over expenditure of 7,200,000 l. It had, therefore, been proposed to repeal taxes to the amount of 2,200,000 l., and to apply the remaining 5,000,000 l. to the purposes of an efficient sinking fund, which it was proposed should accumulate, until it amounted to the one-hundredth part of the debt funded and unfunded. As the noble lords present were all, he believed, agreed as to the expediency of having a sinking fund; it was unnecessary for him to go into an argument to prove that expediency. It was scarcely possible for any statesman or legislator to think of going on during peace, without paying off a part of the debt incurred during war. From the alternations of peace and war that had hither to taken place; it was, impossible for any one not to take into his calculation, that there would be in the time to come similar alternations; and it ought undoubtedly to be the policy of the government to place the country in a situation to commence war, wherever its honour or safety required it. If, during a period of peace, no part of the debt incurred during war was paid off, not only must we commence war under great disadvantages, but ultimately certain ruin must ensue. It was true, that during every war in which we had had a man time

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superiority, the wealth of the country had increased, not merely nominally, but substantially, in every branch of its industry. During the war of 1756, a great increase had taken place in the wealth and resources of the country; and in the last war a still greater. In every war, in short, except the American war, the general wealth of the country had greatly increased. Let it not be understood from this that he was an advocate for war. On the contrary, it produced evils of the greatest magnitude, not only during its continuance, from the great change of property which it occasioned, but also from its retroactive effect, on the transition from war to peace. Thus, during the last was, how much was heard of the distresses of annuitants, of mortgagers, of persons with fixed incomes; and, when peace came, the retroactive effect was felt by the landed proprietors in the fall of the value of the produce of the soil, and in the lowering of their rents. It might be said, that those evils were produced by the Bank stopping payment; but the fact was, that in the war of 1756, when nothing of that kind took place, similar evils were produced. It was not as an argument for war, that he stated this; but with view to a right understanding of the resources of the country. Happily, all, the interests of the country had recovered, or were recovering, from the evils produced by the war, and by its retroactive effect. Our manufactures might be carried on at a smaller profit than heretofore; but they were carried on upon more solid basis. There was much less of speculation, and much more of real and substantial business. The agricultural interest was undoubtedly still depressed; but it was evidently recovering. This, therefore, was the period when a steady course ought to be pursued, for the purpose of liquidating a part of the debt incurred during the war; for the country should be forced by circumstances into war, the most ruinous consequences must ensue, if nothing had been done during peace to liquidate any part of the debt. With respect to the amount of the sinking found, it was obvious that some amount must be fixed upon. Parliament had determined upon 5,000,000 l.; and he saw no objection to that amount. He knew that some difference of opinion existed in another place, as to the real amount of the sinking fund; but into that question he would not
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now enter. He would merely observe, that as the annuities were now sold, that could be no doubt that there was a difference of income over expenditures to that amount. It might be said, that they ought not to look to one advantage without regarding others. Undoubtedly, if, in considering the important measure, that state had been wholly overlooked, it might properly, become the subject of animadversion. But he would state to their lordships what had been done with respect to the remission of taxation. From 1816 down to the present period; 22,000,000 l. per annum of taxes had been remitted—that was, there had been taken off full one-third of the whole taxation of the country during the latter years of the war. Now, let the reduction of rents or profits be put as low as they might, their lordships would find the reduction of taxation far exceeded it. Under these circumstances, it was thought highly expedient to look the financial system of the country in the face; and it was impossible to place that system upon a solid basis, without an efficient sinking fund. He therefore conjured their lordships not to think of giving up a measure which had been approved of by statesmen, whatever their differences might be upon other questions, which could alone, during peace, place the country in a situation to commence war, when its honour or, its safety required it, and which formed the best security for all the interests of the country.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he could not refuse his assent to a bill, by which it was intended, for the first time, to simplify the sinking fund, and place it upon that true foundation on which alone it ought to rest; namely, the surplus of revenue beyond the expenditure. He was himself the first man to suggest to that House the propriety of getting rid of the cumbrous machinery of the sinking fund, after the substance had disappeared; and, though the noble earl had then cautioned him against the danger of the principle he contended for, it was a satisfaction to see the same, noble earl adopting that very principle in his bill, by placing the sinking fund on the only true and intelligible ground upon which it ought ever to have rested Though it was true, that it had been the custom at every period when the subject was reduced into parliament, to praise the sinking fund, to extol the benefit of its

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operation, and the wisdom of its founders, it was somewhat curious to observe, that the panegyric always ended with some injurious encroachment. Though it never was mentioned but to be praised, it never was praised but to be undermined. After the sinking fund had worn away by those practices, and when nothing remained of it but a display of figures, the only effect of which was to employ a number of clerks, the sum represented being gone to all substantial purposes, it was felt necessary to give an appearance of having that which we had not, by means of the complicated machinery to which he had alluded. Disapproving as he did of this, he could not but concur in a measure calculated, as far as it went, to correct the delusion of which he complained; but, as if, by some fatality, delusion was always to be mixed up with the notion of a sinking fund. We now professed to have an income above our expenditure, to the extent of five millions; when the fact was, that it was only three millions. It had been admitted by a high authority in another place, that our expenditure was 47 millions, and our income 50 millions, leaving only a balance of three millions for the sinking fund. By that operation, and the sale of the half-pay and pension annuity, there was an appearance of increase; but at the expense of whom? Of that very posterity whom we professed to relieve to the amount of five millions, while we took from them the two millions necessary to make it up. He did not trust to his memory in this instance; for he had the authority of a published speech of the noble earl opposite, in which he took credit, at the commencement of last session, for the advantage that would be derived by posterity, from the falling in of the half-pay and pension annuity; yet that very fund of which the noble earl had boasted as a relief to posterity, was the one with which be now went into the market to make up the sinking fund. It was, in fact, saying to posterity, after reciting in the bill that it was fitting they should be relieved by means of a sinking fund—after saying that we had that surplus which we had not—"You shall be relieved to the extent of five millions instead of three millions; but to enable us to do so, you must allow us to borrow two." He would therefore contend, that the bill partook of the character of delusion, by holding out a surplus which did not exist. Under
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this impression, it was his intention to propose, either in the committee or on the bringing up of the report, that the sum of three millions should be substituted for five millions, in order to get rid of the delusion. One benefit which the noble earl had stated as arising out of the operation of a sinking fund, had struck him with some surprise. He had represented it as likely to prevent those great changes of property, which arose out of the transition from war to peace. If ever there was a period at which such an argument ought not to be brought forward, it was at the end of a long war, during which this country possessed a greater sinking fund than ever was anticipated by the most sanguine speculators. Surely the House would not deny, that a greater change of property had never taken place in any country than we had since experienced in this—a change only inferior to that produced by revolution; and yet it was produced in spite of the nostrum proposed by the noble earl, as a certain remedy against such an evil. He was ready to admit, that great advantages might be derived from a sinking fund in time of peace; at the same time, he did not believe, that any abstract proposition could be laid down as to its being always necessary in time of peace to lay by so much surplus revenue for a sinking fund. He considered government perfectly at liberty, without any breach of public faith, to appropriate the surplus revenue in that way, which seemed most advantageous to the country. There might be periods of peace, when it would be proper to have a sinking fund; but, would it not be absurd to say, that under all circumstances, such a fund should be created, and that sums should be taken from the public purse, and kept apart, which, if employed in the remission of taxes, would improve the resources, extend the commerce, and benefit the agriculture of the country? He was disposed, under the circumstances of the country, to go some way towards providing a sinking fund. He could not shut out from his mind the probability of an approaching war in the peninsula. He was, therefore, more desirous than he was at a former period, to see this country possessed of a surplus revenue to a considerable amount; applicable, first as a sinking fund, and next, to meet any extraordinary situation in which the country, might be placed.

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Under these circumstances, he would not object to a sinking fund of three millions. The noble earl had stated the large amount of taxes which had been taken off. He was glad to hear the noble earl dwell on this subject; because he had often been told in that House, that taxation had little to do with the existing distress. Looking to all the circumstances of the country, he felt no inclination to oppose the formation of a sinking fund to the amount of the actual surplus. There was nothing connected with our internal affairs, of greater importance than the preservation of the character and honour of the country, by the payment of the interest of the national debt. He was happy to see so strong a disposition in parliament—notwithstanding there were men who wished to relieve one class at the expense of another—to adhere strictly to the preservation of the public faith.
Lord Kinginsisted, that the present bill contained a manifest delusion. There were, in fact, but three millions applicable to a sinking fund: the remainder was borrowed from posterity. The present was an amphibious sort of measure. It was partly the work of the last, and partly the work of the present chancellor of the exchequer. Its incongruity reminded him of certain animals in New South Wales, which appeared to be part bird and part beast.
Lord Ellenboroughregretted, that the noble lord (Bexley) who had been so long at the head of the exchequer, had not given their lordships the benefit of his opinion on this occasion. He thought with his noble friend, that the real sinking fund was not five, but three millions. If there was a sinking fund of five millions, taxes to that amount might be taken off. But it was clear, that if taxes were taken off to the amount of five millions, the expenditure would exceed the income by two millions. The noble earl had told them that the improvement of the revenue had now, for the first time, enabled government to settle the sinking fund on a firm basis; but, in point of fact, the revenue was smaller now than it had been at many previous periods. It was not, therefore, the increase of revenue alone that enabled their lordships to entertain this measure; it was the diminution of expense, acting in concurrence with the improved state of certain items in the revenue. At the present moment, he conceived their lordships must see the ne-
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cessity of keeping up the establishments of this country, and of enabling her to maintain her high situation amongst the states of Europe. God only knew how long they might retain the blessings of peace!
Lord Bexleythought the establishment of a sinking fund necessary, to prevent any uncertainty with respect to funded property. He defended the plan adopted for getting rid of the half-pay and pensions, and maintained, that there was an actual surplus revenue of 5,000,000 l.
The bill then went through a committee.