Sitting of 19 June 1823

REFORM OF PARLIAMENT—PETITION FROM NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE.
Mr. Jamessaid, he had a Petition to present from 3,107 inhabitants of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, comprising many respectable tradesmen, but for this most part the mechanics and artisans, on whom in case of need, the country depended for defence, complaining that they were excluded from the share to which men

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were naturally entitled in the representation, and were therefore in a state of slavery. He wished he had seen the hon. member for Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce) in his place, as he would have made him a fair offer. He (Mr. J.) was one of those unfortunate persons who inherited property in the West Indies, and he would willingly bargain to use his utmost endeavours to promote the abolition of the slavery of the blacks, if the hon. member would use the same exertions to abolish the slavery of the whites. What was a slave but he who was obliged to give up his will to the will of others? And, when a thousandth part of the population was at liberty to rob the rest, to shut them up in dungeons if they complained, to cut them down when they assembled to remonstrate, what were the majority but slaves? In this free country, as it was called, the slave was allowed to go out of his own house in the morning, but he was waylaid in the evening, and half his earnings were taken from him. The exciseman arrived with penalties, instead of cart whips, tasted him on the soap with which he washed the sweat from his weary brow, and the salt, with which he savoured his frugal meat. By heaven! if the black slave were to change with the white one, the exchange would not be to his benefit. The petitioners, enumerating the evils they had suffered from the want of equal representation, particularized the suspensions of the Habeas Corpus act, the restraints on the liberty of the press, the funding system, which taxed children yet unborn, the Bank-restriction act, and the confiscation act, commonly called Peel's bill. The petitioners prayed for universal suffrage, annual parliaments, and votes by ballot as the only means of national relief; in all which he (Mr. J.) fully concurred.
Sir I. Coffinexpressed his belief that the hon. member and the petitioners, were labouring under mental delusion. He did not know where the distress and misery of which they talked existed. For his own part, he never saw in any other country so many fat, sleek, well-clad, and contented looking people as he saw in England.
Mr. Jamesobserved, that the individuals whom the gallant admiral had seen, and whom he represented to be so fat and sleak in condition, must be individuals who lived on the taxes.
Ordered to lie on the table.

PETITION OF MR. BUTT, COMPLAINING OF HIS CONFINEMENT.
Mr. Hobhouseseeing the attorney-general in his place, took the opportunity of presenting a petition, to which he had already called the attention of his majesty's law officers. The petition came from Mr. R. G. Butt, whose case he should proceed to state as briefly as possible. It would be in the recollection of the House, that Mr. Butt brought actions of false imprisonment against sir N. Conant and Mr. Newman, the keeper of Newgate, having been imprisoned before a bill of indictment was found against him, and that the Jury returned a verdict in his favour with 1s. damages. The case was afterwards argued before the four Judges of the court of Common Pleas, who laid down for law a doctrine which he believed to be utterly illegal, and in this opinion he was supported by the authority of lord Camden. The consequence of this decision was, that the costs of the actions amounting to 155 l. in that against sir N. Conant, and to 93 l. in that against Mr. Newman, were thrown upon Mr. Butt. The hard part of the case, however, was, that when the friends of Mr. Butt waited upon the defendants to pay the money, the defendants stated, that they could not receive it, for that the Treasury had paid all their expenses. It was to this part of the case that he was anxious to direct the attention of the House; for he maintained, that the Treasury could not legally pay the expenses of any individual in a law-suit, and by that means become the creditor in place of the original creditor. Sir. N. Conant having declared that he could not receive the money without subjecting himself to an action for fraud, as he had already been paid by the Treasury. Mr. Butt applied to the keeper of Newgate, who also declined receiving the money on the same ground. Mr. Butt then applied to the Treasury, arid was told that he did not stand as debtor upon their books; upon which he made an application to Mr. Justice Richardson, who recommended him to move the court of Common Pleas. After a learned argument from Mr. Serjeant Vaughan, the rule to show cause was refused; Mr. Butt next applied to lord Sidmouth through Mr. Sheriff Parkins, and lord Sidmouth said that Mr. Butt was not confined under any Crown process, and that he could not interfere. An application to Mr. Sheriff Waithman was equally unsuccessful; for that gentle-

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man, after having consulted his solicitor, was unable to point out any means by which Mr. Butt could obtain his release. Mr. Butt next petitioned both Houses of Parliament; and from parliament he obtained the usual relief—that was to say, no relief at all. At the time of the Coronation, when all the king's debtors were discharged, Mr. Butt expected that he should be included: but an exception was made against him, and he was not released. At length, both the defendants died, and Mr. Butt then applied to young Mr. Conant, who stated distinctly, that though the action was defended by his late father, the expenses were paid by the Treasury, and it was to that board, therefore, that Mr. Butt was indebted for the costs of the action. Here was a direct avowal that the Treasury had interfered in this action, and employed the public money to support a justice of the peace, against whom the action was brought. Another application having been made by Mr. Butt to the Treasury, he was told, that if he chose to take the benefit of the Insolvent Debtors' act, they would take no steps to prevent him. He would ask whether this fact did not furnish a convincing proof that the Treasury considered themselves the creditors? What right, he would ask, had the Treasury to pay the money in behalf of sir N. Conant? Their interference was a direct violation of the statute against maintenance; an offence, defined by Mr. Justice Blackstone, to be, the intermeddling in a suit, by furnishing money or other assistance to either party to prosecute or defend it. The Treasury at length consented to the discharge of Mr. Butt, after this unfortunate gentleman had been confined 26 months and 14 days, for a debt which he had offered to pay.
The Solicitor-General.—He did not offer to pay it.
Mr. Hobhouseresumed. The solicitor-general denied, in a manner not the most courteous, that Mr. Butt had offered to pay the debt. He (Mr. H.) took the liberty to say that he had offered to pay it: but, whether he had or had not was immaterial to the main question. The main question was, the legality of the transaction; and he believed that even the learned solicitor with all the modest assurance which belonged to him, would not venture to stand up in his place, and assert that the Treasury could legally make itself the creditor of an individual, by paying the
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expenses of a private suit. He had letters showing that Columbian bonds were offered in payment of the debt, at a time when the value of those securities was not impeached. He had felt it his duty to state this ease at some length, that the House might mark its sense of the transaction, and prevent its recurrence; for, if the government could buy up individual debts, such a power might be grossly abused, and the public money might be applied to purposes of injustice and oppression.
The Solicitor-Generalsaid, that since the hon. member had mentioned the case on a former day, he had brought the correspondence between Mr. Butt and the Treasury, day after day in his pocket, which, he believed, would have satisfied the House that the Treasury had acted with the greatest moderation and forbearance towards Mr. Butt. Today he had not brought down the letters in question, but he would state the nature of the transaction to the House. Mr. Butt, after having been convicted in the court of King's-bench, published a most offensive libel upon lord Ellen-borough and the marquis of Londonderry, which he caused to be placarded in all parts of the town. The secretary of state sent to sir N. Conant, desiring him to take measures to prevent the continuance of this nuisance. Sir N. Conant accordingly issued a warrant for the apprehension of Mr. Butt, and upon his refusal to give bail, Mr. Butt was committed to Newgate. Mr. Butt having been advised that the whole transaction was illegal, brought actions against sir N. Conant and Mr. Newman, the keeper of Newgate, in the court of Common Pleas, in order to try the legality of the warrant. The case was conducted on the part of sir N. Conant, not by the Treasury, but by sir N. Conant himself and his own solicitor. A special verdict was found, and a special case reserved, in consequence of the great importance of the question, involving, as it did, the legality of another transaction which had been much discussed in that House—he alluded to the well-known circular of lord Sidmouth. The case was elaborately argued in the court of Common Pleas, and the court, after much consideration, were of opinion, that the warrant was legal, and judgment consequently passed against Mr. Butt. As Mr. Butt could not pay the costs, which amounted to 500 l. the secretary of state (thinking it extremely hard that they should fall

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upon sir N. Conant and Mr. Newman) wrote to the Treasury, requesting that they might be reimbursed. He would put it to the House whether there was any thing irregular or improper in this transaction? The hon. member had said, that Mr. Butt had offered to pay the costs to sir N. Conant. If the hon. member knew, of his own knowledge, that such an offer had been made, he could not, of course, say that it was not so; but he had made every inquiry, and the result certainly was, that no such offer had ever been made. Mr. Butt had offered a warrant of attorney to the lords of the Treasury, as a security for the debt; and the result of this application was, that the Treasury had declined the warrant of attorney, and granted his discharge without any condition. So far was Mr. Butt from having any just ground of complaint against the Treasury, that, in a letter addressed to the lords of the Treasury, he had expressed great gratitude for their moderation and forbearance.
Mr. Denmancould not understand how the Treasury had a right to apply the public money to the buying up of the debts of an individual, and thereby to keep him in prison at their pleasure. He trusted that a proceeding like the present would not be repeated; as it gave to the government an unlimited power of oppression.
Mr. Hobhousedenied that the solicitor-general had taken the edge off the case. One point only he had made clear; and that was that the law had been violated; for he had not ventured to maintain that the Treasury had a right to pay the expenses of a private law suit. He begged the House to consider what an engine of oppression such a power might become, if, when magistrates committed any act of injustice and oppression, the government could defend them out of the public purse. It was merely to say, that sir N. Conant and not the Treasury, had defended the action in question. The learned solicitor had talked of the moderation and forbearance of the Treasury. Those qualities belonged only to the just exercise of power, but the Treasury had no just power. They had acted under an usurped authority. It was absurd, therefore, to talk of their moderation and forbearance.
The Attorney Generalrepeated the statement of the solicitor-general, and contended that the conduct of the Treasury was neither unjust nor illegal, in remunerating sir N. Conant for expenses which he had incurred, at the instance of
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government, and which the court of Common Pleas had declared to be perfectly legal. He must be permitted to state, that he thought the opinion of the court of Common Pleas, on the legality of holding persons to bail for libel, was quite as likely to be correct as that of the hon. member for Westminster, much as he valued himself on his legal knowledge. For his own part, he did not believe that Mr. Butt had ever been in a condition to pay the costs. If he had tendered the money to sir N. Conant, and that individual had refused to receive it, he ought to have immediately moved the court upon the subject.
Mr. Hobhousesaid, he had founded his opinion of its being illegal to hold individuals to bail on charges of libel, upon the authority of lord Camden; and trusted that the House would not attach too much weight to the counter decision of the court of Common Pleas, when he informed them, that in that court, for the first time since the Revolution, a judge had ventured to stand up for the character of the Judges who had tried the Seven Bishops, and to state, as Mr. Justice Park had done, that lord Camden had, in particular, pressed too hard upon the character of that wretch, Mr. Justice Allybone. He understood well what was meant by the sneer of the learned attorney-general; but he would tell him, that he did not think the opinion of the law-officers of the Crown, on a point where the liberty of the subject was concerned, to be worth that! [Snapping his fingers]. Every body knew for what purpose they were sent into that House; every body knew out of what wood it was that an attorney and solicitor-general were hacked. Ex quovis ligno fit Mercurius. It was not to be endured that they should turn out of their course to taunt the unlearned with ignorance of law, at the same time that they did not show any willingness to enlighten their darkness. If an unexperienced layman complained of any grievance which he conceived to have been offered to any of the king's subjects, it was the duty of the attorney and solicitor-general to show him, if they could, that he was mistaken in his opinion: not to taunt him with his ignorance of the subject. In the present case, nothing had dropped from the regular defenders of regular abuses, that at all went to establish the legality of the conduct of the Treasury. It had been stated, that their

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conduct was fair and proper; and much had been said about the hardship it would be on sir N. Conant to allow him to be a loser; but not once had it been stated that they had acted legally. No. He defied the hon. and learned gentlemen opposite to the proof upon that point; "and let me tell them," continued Mr. H., "that I am confident I am right in this instance, because I am opposed to them. At the same time, I think it only fair to state, that my opinion rests, not upon any confidence in myself, but upon my distrust of them; and that I am not so much certain that I am in the right, as I have a tolerable assurance that they are in the wrong."
Ordered to lie on the table.

MIDDLESEX COUNTY COURT.
Mr. Lennard Mr. Lennard moved, "That a Select Committee be appointed to take into consideration the returns made to this House on the 24th of January 1821, from the county court of the county of Middlesex; and to report to this House whether the fees paid may not be diminished, and whether it may not be expedient for the county clerk to sit oftener in each week in the hundred of Ossulston, and to increase the number of sittings in the other hundreds where the court now sits."
Mr. Curwenobjected to the motion, and maintained that not the slightest imputation could rest upon the barrister who, with so much ability, presided over the county court of Middlesex.
Mr. Grey Bennetwas of Opinion, that a committee could not be better employed that in inquiring into the establishment of this court, and whether it could not be improved and the salaries diminished.
The House divided: Ayes 18. Noes 44.

List of the Minority.

Benyon, B.

Palmer, C. F.

Browne, D.

Ricardo, D.

Caleraft, J.

Robarts, A. W.

Duncannon, visc.

Robarts, G.

Grattan, J.

Rice, T. S.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Taylor, M. A.

Hume, J.

Western, C. C.

Leycester, R.

TELLERS.

Monck, T. B.

Lennard, T. B.

Martin, J.

Benner, H. G.

Nugent, lord

PROMOTIONS IN THE NAVY.
Mr. Humesaid, that the motion, of which he had given notice, was a very important
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one, and he hoped that the motives which had induced him to bring it forward would not be misunderstood. It was not with British seamen that he would find fault: these he had always held in the highest estimation, and he hoped that nothing would occur to alter that good opinion of them. But he had no hesitation in saying, that since the commencement of the peace, the admiralty bad not used those powers with which they were vested, in the way that appeared to be most useful, either in promoting the interests of the country or the honour of the navy. He denied the most distant intention of casting any reflection upon the navy itself. That navy had been, and it always ought to be, the honour and glory of the country; and he hoped that the country would never forget, or fail to acknowledge, their gallant deeds. He looked upon the navy as the most important branch of our national defence: to it the country owed air its honour and glory; for the trophies of the army had been always the consequence of the triumphs of the navy. He held the characters of naval officers in the highest respect. He coupled with their names all that was gallant and manly; and he trusted that they would not look upon the present motion as in any way directed against them. He could have no feeling of hostility for such men. Nay, on the other hand, he wished to be considered their best friend. He wished that those who had really fought the battles of their country should get the honour and the reward due for such services, The conduct of the admiralty since the war had given great dissatisfaction; not only to the country, but to the officers of the navy themselves. Old and brave men, who had seen a great deal of service, and whose service and hardships in war entitled them to honour, had not met with that attention and reward which their merits deserved; for many officers who had entered the service long after the war, had been promoted over their heads. Now, he would contend, that if any thing was more degrading than another, or more hurtful to the feelings of a veteran officer, whether of the navy or the army, it was to see a junior, with perhaps he claim but family connection, put over his head—to see a youth removed and put over a man who had been his instructor and his commandant; nay, to see this very young man put in command over

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him, and raised two or three steps above him, sometimes in the very ship where he had served. If he (Mr. H.) were correct, in the instances he should state, they were an abuse of power on the part of the admiralty. If he was not correct in these, he should be very ready, on sufficient explanation and proof, to admit his error. The first fault he had to find with the admiralty was, that they had not, in time of peace, employed those officers, who, from the extent and importance of their services in war, had a fair claim for employment, but had employed young men in their stead; and not only in this, but they had failed also to give them their due share of the promotion which had taken place. From this it appeared, at least the people would be very apt to say, that they kept up the large establishment, and continued the promotions in the navy, not for the good of the country, but for the advantage of young men belonging to certain families. This ought not to be the case; the rewards of the navy, paid as they were out of the public money, ought not to be given to young and inexperienced men; but to those whose services had been of use to their country. He wished to see the British navy in the high commanding attitude it had assumed until of late years; and he had no hesitation in stating; that many old and able officers entertained great doubts, whether the course now pursued would furnish officers in time of need, capable of maintaining the power and honour of the country. On these accounts he did not hesitate to say, that the admiralty were not taking the proper course, that they had not employed the proper means for continuing to the navy that character, and consequent power, which it ought always to hold. If these charges were not supported by facts, they would of course fall to the ground, and he should be ready to withdraw his motion. But, entertaining these opinions, he would not do his duty, if he had not brought forward that motion.
If the expense of the navy had been necessarily great during the war, the public had a right to expect, that, with the termination of the war, the expense of the war would have, ceased. He was ready, very ready to admit that, the half-pay of. the navy must, after so long and extensive a war, be large, and he was convinced that there was not a man in the country, however much he might blame the want of economy in the government
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in other respects, but was of the same opinion. There was no disposition in the people to withhold a due reward for services; but it was only to those, however, who had really served their country, that the reward should be given. The finance committee had, in their report of 1816–17, calculated that the half-pay would decrease rapidly in time of peace: and it was the duty of the House to attend to the suggestions of that committee. At the close of the war, there was a large list of between 5,000 or 6,000 naval officers; and it was reasonably calculated, that, from the long and hard services to which many of them had been exposed, the expense of that department would be rapidly decreased. If the expectations which were then held out were not realized, the House had a right to inquire into the causes. In order to show that this had not been the case, he would point out what had been our situation in 1793; at the end of the war in 1816; and now, as to the number of officers—the number, at the close of the war, was necessarily large, on account of the great number of ships that had been in commission. In 1793, the number of officers stood as follows:—

Admirals

10

Vice-Admirals

19

Rear-Admirals

19

Captains

444

Commanders

160

Lieutenants

1409

Making a total of

2061

Officers.

In the year 1816, the numbers were,

Admirals

67

Vice-Admirals

68

Rear-Admirals

75

Captains

850

Commanders

803

Lieutenants

3994

Marking a total of

5857

Officers.

Now the estimate held out was, that these would be annually reduced about 3 or 4 per cent, and that thus, in the 7 years which had elapsed since 1816, there would have been a reduction of nearly one-third. He would take it, how* ever, at a fourth or a fifth. But instead of that proportion of reduction, there had not been a diminution of 1 per cent. The numbers on the list now were:—

Admirals

59

Vice-Admirals

64

Rear-Admirals

70

1083

Captains

829

Commanders

814

Lieutenants

3720

Making a total of

5556

Officers

which was a reduction only of about 310, instead of being between 900 and 1,000. From 1816 to 1823, there had been 965 steps of promotion, including 513 first commissions. He would not object to the 44 post-captains who had been raised to admirals, or the admirals who had been promoted, for he felt convinced, that they had all served for 23 or 24 years, and of these there had been only a few promoted. There had been no fewer than 513 promotions of midshipmen to be lieutenants, although at the close of the war, there were 3,994 lieutenants in the service; and the object of thus promoting so many midshipmen was stated to be, to bring into the Service all those who were deserving,—to bring in all those who had claims for Service. This was so far well if it could be proved to have been the case; but it would require some better reasons than he knew to justify the large addition that had been made, of men who had no claims from service. Within the last 7 years, the higher promotions were as follows:—222 lieutenants had been raised to the rank of masters, and 125 masters and commanders posted. Such an increase in a period of peace, after the hopes that had been held out of reduction in the numbers, was not consistent. The country has been disappointed; but if promotions were to be made, they should have comprehended old and valuable officers, whose services entitled them to the preference. It was necessary here to anticipate an objection that had been made on a former occasion, and would most probably be re-introduced in the present discussion. It would be said, that these promotions were made on foreign service—that the admiralty had no direct interference with them—that they were essential to the well-being of the service, and were altogether free from that official influence and interest to which he (Mr. H.) was so decidedly averse. To meet this argument, he would state the extent to which promotions, exclusive of the admiralty authority, had really taken place; for he had moved, with a view to such exposition, for a return in detail of the officers who had been promoted by officers in command abroad within the last seven years. A reference
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to these documents would best explain the facts, and give the best refutation to their statement. He found that the number of promotions necessarily made by deaths and dismissals for the last seven years abroad, was, commanders 5, post-captains 6, lieutenants 45. That was the whole of the casualties on foreign service, and the extent of the patronage of admirals abroad; but there was another class of officers promoted, namely, those by flag-officers on striking their flag. As each command continued for three years, the opportunity, according to the custom of the service, was afforded of making, on the 13 flag stations, 13 commanders and 13 lieutenants. Making, then, the due allowance for the casualties by death and dismissal, and the flag promotions, the number of lieutenants promoted by the admiralty amounted to 432; of commanders, 180; and of post-captains, 120. It might be said, that such as were promoted on foreign service were out of the influence of the admiralty. The fact was not so; for with the exception of the cases mentioned, the promotions abroad were just as much under admiralty influence as those which took place in London: a list was forwarded by the admiralty to the commanding officer of each station, containing the names of officers who were sent out for promotion, and on a vacancy taking place by invaliding the first of that list, for the time being, the commanding officer must of necessity promote, subject to the approbation at home.
He thought the admiralty was bound to show why such an increase in promotion had, under the circumstances of the country, taken place in these 7 years, oft, profound peace. The misfortune was, that our number of naval officers was not necessarily proportioned to our number of vessels. In every other branch of service—in the army, for example—the power of promotion was limited to the number of regiments, and the vacancies that occurred. If there were ten regiments, it was impossible to promote a greater number of officers than the complement prescribed to these ten regiments required. A very contrary course existed in the administration of the naval service. Though there were only 300 ships; of, every rate (the 6 rates), it was at the discretion of the admiralty, at least in modern practice, to appoint as many commanders and captains, as they chose. The House was called upon, in his judg-

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ment, to affix some limits to a discretion which he had shown to have been so grossly abused, and hereafter likely to be improperly and expensively exercised. He would take the list of ships employed and in ordinary in 1823. He would allow the proper number of officers to every ship in the navy, in ordinary and afloat—he would officer the vessels upon the most liberal scale; he would allow 8 lieutenants to a first rate, 7 to a second, 6 to a third, 5 to a fourth, and so on. Over and above this, he would allow 50 lieutenants for guard and receiving ships—he would officer every vessel that could swim; and to do all this he would require only 244 captains, 147 commanders, and 1,538 lieutenants; whilst, at present, we had near 850 captains, more than 800 commanders, and 3,720 lieutenants; being a surplus, as regarded the lieutenants, of near 2,200.
He was bound to say that he had received from the admiralty every facility for his present motion; he still, however, con tended, that they held a dangerous discretion, and he thought the calculation he had just made, proved that that discretion should be limited. Passing by the effect on the officers superceded, let the House look at the expense—the mere cost—which these useless promotions had en tailed upon the country. In the year 1816, the whole amount of the navy half-pay, including superannuations and pensions, had been 1,137,308 l., and the estimate of the present year was 1,079,536 l.; being a decrease of 57,772 l. in the seven years of peace to meet all those hopes of rapid reduction held out by the committee of finance in 1816–7. In fact, the expense of the promotions of the last seven years, allowing for the differences of pay, had amounted to more than 78,000 l. a year. If we compared the number of ships in the six rates in the service in 1793, it would be found, that they were nearly as many as in 1816, although there were only 2,061 officers in the former year, and 5,868 in the latter. Was any promotion, he would ask, requisite with such a number of officers in the service? Let us see what had been the conduct of the admiralty after the American war. In the six years from 1784 to 1789, there had only been 160 promotions in the navy, whilst, in the six years from 1816 to 1821, there had been 797 promotions. With so many more officers in the service in 1816, than in 1784, how could this be defended?
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And now he would consider the propriety of the promotions; that was, the discretion with which officers had been selected for promotion—a point of far more interest to the nation than the expense of their half pay. In such an inquiry it was not fair to dwell upon particular instances; and he believed that his list of cases, as it was pretty extensive, would also be found tolerably impartial. First, he had a list of 40 post-captains, who had been lieutenants at the close of the war, and had, consequently, gained two steps in time of peace—one step, he (Mr. H.) submitted, would have been quite sufficient for all their services performed. The gentleman at the head of the list, captain Fanshawe, was a lieutenant in 1813, and had been promoted as commander in 1815, passing over the heads of 2,610 lieutenants, and made post in 1816, over the heads of 770 commanders. The next was Houstoun Stewart, who was placed over the heads of 630 commanders, and who was posted on the 10th June, 1817. The third he should mention was the hon. G. Perceval, who had passed over the heads of 2,700 lieutenants, of 685 commanders, and been posted on the 7th Dec. 1818. The next was the hon. G. Gambier, who passed over the heads of 3,280 lieutenants, of 745 commanders, and posted the 4th of June, 1821. He begged the attention of the House more particularly to the two next cases; namely, that of lord H. F. Thynne, and the hon. F. Spencer. Lord H. F. Thynne was made a lieutenant the 27th Nov. 1817; a commander, in June, 1821, having passed over the heads of 3,588 lieutenants, and been posted in July, 1822, having passed over the heads of 755 commanders. And it should be remark, ed, that lord H. F. Thynne had never served one day as a commander. The hon. F. Spencer was appointed a lieutenant the 14th July, 1818; made a commander, in March, 1821, having passed over the heads of 3,642 licutenants; he was posted in August, 1822, having passed over the heads of 749 commanders. Captain Spencer was, he believed, prompted abroad; that was, according to the system of accommodation often so improperly practised of creating a vacancy when required, by getting the senior officers invalided. Against such a system, where a certificate of ill health was often given, where it was well known there was no ill health, the House was

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bound to set its face. The hon. member went on with a large list of instances, in which officers had been needlessly promoted to the rank of captain since the peace, and unfairly promoted, as regarded the claims of their fellows. He gave particular examples of supersession, in the case of captain Gambier of the Dauntless, who had been a midshipman at the close of the war, and whose first lieutenant, Mr. S. Jervois, was an elder lieutenant by five years than himself; the case of captain Maclean, of the Blossom, whose first lieutenant, W. G. Agar, had been 17 years a lieutenant; and the case of captain, the hon. F. Spencer, now commanding the Creole, and having two lieutenants under him, Mr. T. Phipps and Mr. W. Robertson, both of them lieutenants for years before their captain had gone to sea. Let the lords of the admiralty consider the mischief which these unfair promotions did to the service. Let them look at the four officers—lord Thynne, and Messrs. Spencer, Gambier, and Maclean, who had received three promotions—lieutenants, commanders, and post-captains, since the peace—and judge of the feelings of the old and meritorious officers over whose heads those gentlemen had passed. The others of the 40 cases which he had selected were of the same description, in all of them great super, session, though in different degrees.
There were, also, 51 commanders, who had obtained two commissions since April 1814, and who were promoted over the heads of hundreds of their seniors. Some of them superseded 3,600 lieutenants, and all of them upwards of 2,200!!! [hear]. He stated these facts from documents with which, in conformity with the order of that House, the admiralty had laid upon the table. He had no reason to complain of any reluctance on their part to furnish the returns for his motion. It was one in which the public interest was much excited, and they had acted wisely in affording the information asked for. He had no party feelings on the subject—he had no personal objects through disappointment to gratify; as he had not a relation connected with the Navy. (An hon. friend near him suggested, that if he had such a connexion, he would not probably take his present course [a laugh].) He felt that it would make no difference with him, and it was known to his friends, that he had done so in another branch of the service where he had a relation.
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He next came to the employment of officers, a point of considerable importance when coupled with that of promotion. If the rule for promotion upon any extraordinary occasion—the rule, for instance, observed at his Majesty's Coronation, had been to select officers according to their seniority in the service, he should have been content. But the seniority which had led to promotion in that instance, turned out to be seniority as to employment in the time of peace, and not as to employment in the time of war. When it was stated by the admiralty, in answer to officers applications, that attention would be paid in all the coronation promotions, to seniority and service, lieutenants of 10 or 17 years standing, and the greater part of that time a service in war, had naturally expected to be made commanders. But the admiralty afterwards said,—"You shall be selected with reference to the length of your service during the peace, and not according to your service during the war." Whether that rule was just or not he did not now inquire, but supposing the admiralty to have previously made up their minds, that they would promote at the Coronation those officers whose length of employment during the peace was greatest, how easy was it for them, by previous arrangement of that peace employment, to place the claim for promotion in whomsoever they pleased. He was aware that family and parliamentary interest might be expected to have a certain weight; but, looking back to the list which he held in his hand of 51 lieutenants made commanders, he could not but think that the effect of that influence was much too great. As a specimen of the promotion at the Coronation, he referred to the list of commanders then made post captains. They were—

Date of Commission at Commander.

Officers passed over.

Sea Service in peace.

J. Gore

May, 1808

125

3

ys.

3

mths.

J. C. Carpenter

April, 1809

137

1

ys.

4

mths.

R. Hockings

April, 1809

137

1

ys.

10

mths.

G. B. Allen

July, 1809

144

2

ys.

3

mths.

J. Cod

May, 1810

158

4

ys.

0

mths.

R. L. Colson

June, 1810

166

4

ys.

3

mths.

Edw. Lloyd

May, 1811

194

2

ys.

11

mths.

J. Gedge

Sept. 1811

211

4

ys.

8

mths.

B. M. Kelly

Nov. 1811

213

2

ys.

10

mths.

H. F. Jauncey

Feb. 1812

216

4

ys.

3

mths.

These were the promotions of the Coronation, made over the heads of highly deserving officers who had been wounded in the service. He should mention some

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of the names of these neglected men:—

Date of Commission.

George Luke

June 23, 1794

George Robinson

Nov. 5, 1794

J. Johnson

April 27, 1801

J. Douglas

April 29, 1802

James Grant

Jan. 12, 1805

W. J. Hughes

Sept. 25, 1806

Wm. Coote

May 6, 1807

B. Warburton

Dec. 16, 1807

H. C. Thompson

Aug. 29, 1808

C. Beacroft

Oct. 3, 1809

H. N. Rowe

May 2, 1810

T. L. R. Laugharne

Feb. 12, 1811

J. H. Garrety

May 3, 1811

He would ask again, if such a system was not calculated to discourage every man who served his country, much more those who had bled in her service; and who naturally looked forward to some of the distinctions of their professions?
Again, with respect to the employment, he had made out a list of the 57 commanders, the total number now employed in the navy. Five were employed upon survey; but of the remaining 52, how many would the House suppose were old officers who had served in time of war; and how many of them officers made since the peace? Half and half, as regarded the numbers, would perhaps be the general idea. No such thing. Of the 52 commanders now employed, of whom he spoke, 6 only had been made before the year 1813—that was during the active period of the war; all the rest had been promoted subsequent to the year 1814 in time of peace.—Was not such proceedings calculated to discourage and to disgust officers even the most attached to the naval service, and eventually to impair and destroy its efficiency? It might be said, as it had already been said, that the old officers did not wish to be employed. He would meet that argument, if it was used, by saying that he knew to the contrary. He had made out a list of 98 lieutenants (now serving under new-made captains), older sailors and better entitled to promotion by their services than the men who commanded them. Every one of that number had been upwards of 10 years lieutenants, and some upwards of 20 years—From that number of old officers the promotions might have been made! In looking to the advancement and employment of officers who had seen long service, it occurred to him that many of the midshipmen who had served during the war were placed in a very hard situation. After the promotion of 1,000 midshipmen,
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in 1814, which was to meet all claim for services in time of war of that classy it had been said, indeed, that no further promotions were to take place; but still there had been an understanding, that such midshipmen as should still continue in the service, would have the chance of advancement in preference to new claimants. This promise, however, as far as it could be called a promise, had not been fulfilled in good faith. On the 1st of January, 1816, there were 1,509 passed midshipmen, and of that number only 188 had been up to this date, promoted to be lieutenants, and 163 of those who were in the service in 1816, still remained in the service as midshipmen! He had found on board the flag ship at Portsmouth in the month of March, of the present year, 10 midshipmen whose united periods of service amounted to no less than 142 years [Hear, hear.] Every one of these were young men of exemplary character; and the cases of some of them were well known to many members of the House. One had been fifteen years in the service, and he was happy to learn this day, that he was about to be employed in the Isis. He trusted he was at length in the way of promotion. The next on the list, Mr. H. S. Burmston had been also 15 years a midshipman. His claims were numerous. He had been in several actions; had distinguished himself at Algiers; had been thanked for meritorious services by the king of Holland; and had received a medal from the Humane Society, for having saved a seaman from drowning. He had no acquaintance or connexion with any of them; but having accidentally learned the singular fact of such a number of midshipmen of such long standing, having been on board one ship, he felt extremely solicitous to be informed of the particular history of each, which he then had in his hand, but would not take up the time of the House in stating more of them. If such was the illustration which one ship gave, as to the hardship of the old midshipmen, what must be the state of the case when the whole service was taken into account. He hoped, however, that in charity such an example was not very common. Turning from the meritorious, but the neglected, to the fortunate young men, he found the names of 10 midshipmen promoted to be lieutenants immediately after they had served their time; and whose united service as midshipmen did not amount to 60 years, including the

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time at the Naval College, and those, all years of service, during the peace. Amongst these 10 midshipmen so promoted, was the name of one Mr. Purvis, whose name was not yet published in the Navy List. That practice, he believed, was a recent but not uncommon one. With the view of keeping secret such promotions, an interval of 3 months took place between the promotion and the period of making it known to the public. It came within his knowledge, that an officer had received the communication of his promotion in December, while no insertion of it was made in the official list until the April following. There were three of these midshipmen promoted, on the ground of having attended the king to Scotland. One of these, however, (Mr. Seymour) did not accompany the king, though that was the reason assigned for his promotion. He should not trouble the House with giving the names of all the other numerous fortunate midshipmen, who, in time of peace had been promoted nearly ns soon as they had passed their time; but there were some names which he felt it his duty to mention, viz:—Hope Johnstone, hon. G. Ryder, Henry Dundas, Chas. J. Hope Johnstone, W. F, Martin, A. Fitzclarence, hon. R. S. Dundas, G. J. Hope Johnstone (three promotions in one family rather a little too much), H. M. Blackwood, Chas. Talbot, Wm. Pitt Canning, E. Wodehouse, H. B. Martin, &c. &c. Did not the whole of these arrangements shew overwhelming influence? Did they not prove that a man's interest had more share than his length of service, or his merits, in his advancement f Let this be admitted to him—and to deny it would hardly be possible—and, as to argument, he should be satisfied; he had done sufficient, if he had proved to the House, that the public was put to great expense, by the promotion of young and inexperienced men of family, whilst young men of highly meritorious and long public services were neglected [[Hear]. Promotion—and he would maintain the fact to be so—was as unfairly, as it was extravagantly distributed. If it were yielded to him that these promotions took place chiefly by interest and not by merit; he asked no more, that was all he wished at present to substantiate. He left the conclusion to every hon. member, whether the satisfaction of the officers, and the good of the service were likely to be promoted by such a system, particularly when the
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House was informed that there were at this moment employed afloat 98 lieutenants of from 10 to 23 years service, swerving under captains, the majority of whom never served in time of war.
He then complained, that the admiralty who considered promotions necessary did not act on the same principle towards the royal marines and pursers. He believed there was no man who knew the royal marines, but would concur in praise of their services, as not inferior to that of naval officers; and yet, what was the treatment the marine officers met with? The royal marine corps in January, 1816, consisted of 6,949 officers and men. It was now 8,494; making an increase of 1,545 men in seven years. The navy had not been increased, and yet the number of promotions of officers in the marines which had been increased, bore no proportion to those in the navy. The promotion of lieutenants, captains, and majors together only amounted to 37 steps in the 7 years of peace.—There had been 5 first commissions; 11 lieutenants made captains; 11 captains majors; 10 majors to lieutenant-colonels; in all 37 steps among nearly 1,000 officers—while there had been 960 steps in the navy, and only 400 or 500 officers employed at one time.—The disproportion and injustice were here manifest. The question was, why this difference existed? It was clear that the promotions in the navy and marine service were not sanctioned by any principle of equal justice. And the true reason was, that the marines had no connections in that House; they had no borough influence; they were not supported by an alliance with great families, and therefore their chances of promotion were so very few [hear!]. It ought not to be forgot that the very distinguished loyalty of the royal marines, induced the government to change their facings to royal blue? The case of the marines supported completely his charge of influence. The number of marine officers brought from half pay in 6 years had been 210, and only five new commissions had been given. In the navy 513 new commissions had been given! The fair principle of promotion which he contended ought to be adopted in the navy, had been recognized by a regulation which had been passed with respect to purser's in 1814; in which it was ordered, "that with the view of preventing the improvident and unnecessary increase of pursers, no

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person should be warranted for that situation until the number should be reduced to the number of ships on the list of the royal navy, exclusive of the ships building." It was his (Mr. Hume's) opinion, that some such rule should be laid down relative to the officers of the navy, that there might be no more officers than would be sufficient to officer all the ships that we bad either afloat, in ordinary, "or building.—A proof of the advantage of that regulation was, that in 1816, there were 950 pursers, and there had been, in consequence of the regulation alluded to, but sixteen promotions of pursers in seven years, and these had been made chiefly on foreign service; there were now only 747 pursers, so that the number was at present reduced 203 below that of 1816; and if the sixteen promotions abroad were deducted, it would make 219 actual decrease in the 7 years—That circumstance showed that a proper regulation for stopping unnecessary promotion had produced the best effect in two branches, the marine officers and pursers and the same rule ought in justice to the public to be acted with naval officers. On all these grounds he thought the House was bound to institute an inquiry—He concluded by moving the following resolutions:—

1. "That it appears, by returns to this House, that there were 3,994 lieutenants, 813 commanders, and 851 post-captains, on the list of the royal navy, in January 1816, and that, notwithstanding so great a number of officers on the list, there has been, between 1st January 1816 and the 8th of January 1823, an additional number of 860 promotions (exclusive of post-captains to be admirals), viz. of 513 midshipmen to be lieutenants, of 222 lieutenants to he commanders, and of 125 commanders to be post-captains: and that although peace has existed for seven years, there were on the 8th January 1823, 3,720 lieutenants, 814 commanders, and, 829 post-captains on the list of the royal navy; a number more than sufficient to officer a fleet of twice the number of ships of every description in the british navy, if they were all at sea at the same time.

2 "That there are 814 commanders on the list of the royal navy, and 57 of them now on full pay, of whom only 7 were promoted during the last ten years active warfare (from 1803 to 1813), and 50 who have been promoted since June 1814, the termination of the war in Europe.

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3 "That many of the promotions have been made in the royal navy without due regard either to the length of service, to the merit of the midshipmen and officers, or to the efficiency and advantage of the navy, and that the expense of the half-pay of the officers of the navy, necessarily great after a long war, has been thereby greatly and unnecessarily increased to the country.

4 "That there were 6,949 officers and men in the corps of royal marines in January 1816, and 8,494 in January 1823, being an increase of that corps of 1,545 men and officers in seven years; but there were only 5 first commissions granted, and 32 promotions to higher rank, in that period.

5 "That there were 950 pursers on the list of the royal navy in January 1816, and 747 in January 1823, showing a decrease of 203 in the seven years, exclusive of 16 pursers added to the list in that time.

6 "That an humble address be therefore presented to his majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to direct an inquiry to be made into the manner in which the right hon. the lords of the admiralty have exercised their power, both as regards the placing on full pay those officers already on the list, and the promotion of the several officers to higher rank in the navy, since the peace in 1815."

Sir G. Cockburnsaid, that the hon. member; while he stated himself to be a friend to the navy, had advocated principles which would be destructive to the service which he affected to uphold. He was sure that any one who had paid attention to the means by which the glory of the British navy had been achieved, would be convinced that the principles laid down by the hon. member would, if I they had been acted upon hitherto, never have allowed it to have attained its present high and splendid pre-eminence. The hon. member had set out with high sounding calculations, but the number of abuses which he had been able to allege was very small. He had laid great stress on the numbers promoted by interest and family connexions; but he (sir G. C.) considered it of great moment that persons of rank and importance in the country should be induced to enter the service. When persons, born to every advantage that society could afford, chose to abandon the comforts of which they were in possession, to fag with others

1095
upon the seas, in the service of their country, they were entitled to peculiar consideration. He allowed that a quantum of promotion ought always to be assigned exclusively to merit; but he was convinced the country would not grumble at the elevation of a certain number of men of that class to which the country must look for its safety, and the House for its defence. He believed neither the navy nor the public could be at all angry to see such men get forward. He would allude to the case of lord Henry Frederick Thynne, which was one of those upon which the imputation of the hon. member had been thrown. The fact, however, was that his name stood at the bottom of a list of seven officers who were made because they were oldest commanders on stations abroad, thus, seven were promotions for merit to one for interest. But, even in respect of the promotions for interest there was a law which prescribed what service an officer should have undergone; and, if he were the king's son, it was necessary that he should perform it. That law required, that he should be six years a midshipman before he could be promoted. And surely, when a person of rank gave up the comforts of life, and consented to fag for six years, he had earned his commission, when given him, with fairness. But the young nobleman to whom he alluded had served some time as a lieutenant in the Mediterranean—[Here Mr. Hume asked what ship?]—He did not then recollect, the name of the ship, but he had also been a lieutenant in the Albion, and sir, J. Gordon, had honourably reported his services to the admiralty. He had also volunteered in a ten-gun brig to South America, and it did so happen that a junior officer was put over his head; yet this young nobleman made no complaint, but conducted himself in a manner that clearly entitled him to the promotion which he had received. As to the charge which had been made of that officer having been sent out to take the command of a vessel in the East Indies, which had not been launched, it was true it had not been launched before he set out, but it was expected to be launched before he arrived. With respect to the case of the hon. Frederick Spencer, upon which was grounded another complaint of parliamentary influence it shout be recollected, that his connections acted with the opposition. How, there fore, could that have been a case of parliamentary influence? The
1096
hon. member seemed to be of opinion, that with the end of the war, there ought to have been generally an end of promotion. But what did he think that such a war which was eminently a naval war, could have closed without leaving great claims upon the gratitude of the country? Those claims were indeed constantly diminishing on account of vacancies by death, and by those who left the service; and if some young men were not brought in, what would become of the navy in the event of a new war?—The hon. member had found fault with the coronation promotion. But what was the fact? There were no midshipmen promoted then, but such as had passed in 1813, and the oldest commander on every station was promoted; the youngest of whom was made either in 1811 or 1812. The lieutenants who were selected were those who had been employed for the last eight year. There was an immense number, indeed, employed during the war; but many of those had since entered into other service, or gone out in merchant vessels. Therefore, the admiralty had picked out for promotion all who had been employed for the last eight years, as being within their reach. There was no favour. The oldest had been made in 1794, and the youngest, he believed, in 1806. He could inform the hon. member, that there had once been a promotion on his principle. It was a jubilee promotion, in which the oldest officers were taken according to seniority; and he considered it a foolish promotion. The first lieutenants of flag-ships were generally the best officers, picked out by the admirals; and it sometimes happened that admirals had an inclination to keep them out; of their promotion too long. They were consequently fit subjects of promotion. As to the gross numbers to which the hon. member had referred, he had unfairly stated them. When he found fault with the number of promotions since 1814, it should be remembered that there had been fought since that period a certain battle of Algiers, which attached to it extensive claims. Many, claims had also arisen out of the coast blockade, in the counties of Sussex and Kent. Officers employed on that station frequently risked their lives, by dashing into the waves to save shipwrecked mariners. It would not be denied that such men deserved promotion. Then there had been pirates of a most audacious character in the Red Sea;

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and our officers had signalized themselves in their extirpation.—There was also slavery to be put down on the coast of Africa; and our officers showed their zeal for its extinction, by dashing up rivers, and attacking sometimes five times their own number: and, were not such men deserving of promotion, when covered with glory, and suffering from wounds? Such services had swelled the list of promotion, and swelled it proudly—and the admiralty was glad of it.—The hon. member had alluded to three persons of the name of Johnston Hope. But the fact was, sir W. Johnston Hope had not made one of them. One of them had been made after he had pulled down his flag, and the others had been made in virtue of an old promise given by sir Home Popham.—He then adverted to the case of another officer, who had been promoted when a reduced lord of the admiralty was requested by lord Melville, from a sense of his services, to name an officer for promotion; and he did name the officer in question. As to the invalids, the hon. member had thrown out an unjustifiable imputation, by speaking of an invaliding job, to make promotions. Would he have officers who became sick in the African and West-India stations, be cruelly kept there to die? The admirals were only allowed to fill up vacancies occasioned by death or court-martial; they had therefore no interest in having officers invalided. No officer could, in fact, be invalided, until three captains and a surgeon declared it necessary for his health that he should return home; and any captain who connived was liable to be cashiered. When he returned he was examined at the admiralty, by two of the chief medical officers of the board. Could this be a job? The unhealthy climates of Africa and the West Indies caused a great increase of invalids; and, when the hon. member spoke of the small number of deaths, he did not take into account the number of those who died after having been invalided. As to the promotion of captain Gambier, it happened by his being in the East Indies when his captain died. The hon. member had objected, that the promotion in the marines was not commensurate with that in the navy. The reason was, that the promotion in the marines was according to that favourite practice which he wished to introduce into the navy; namely, the rising by seniority. The marines were
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not placed in the same situation as naval officers, for it was quite necessary to put a captain into a ship at the moment of a vacancy; but it was not so with the marines. The principle followed in the navy was, that every third vacancy should be filled by a young person; otherwise there would be no persons in the service who were not of 40 or 50 years standing. With respect to pursers, the regulation which the hon. member quoted was found to be so inconvenient, that the admiralty was obliged to apply to the king in council to have it repealed. For the reasons which he had given, he was confident the House would go along with lim in believing, that nothing more than a proper and becoming attention had been paid to the claims of the naval officers of noble and distinguished families, at the same time that the meritorious services of others had not been overlooked [Hear, hear.] He would therefore give the third resolution a direct negative, and meet the rest with the previous question.
Sir Byam Martindefended the principle of promotion adopted in the navy. He asserted it to be unconnected with parliamentary influence, and said, that out of seven promotions which had taken place in one batch, two only, were the friends of persons who supported the present administration.
Sir Isaac Coffincontended, that the system of promotion at present pursued was much superior to the old one, and adverted to the condition of the fleet that sailed under commodore Byron in the American war, when there were officers on board who had not seen the salt sea for 16 or 17 years. He was convinced, that the happy mixture of different orders which composed the naval service, enabled us single-handed to fight the world.
Mr. F. Palmerthought it right that, in such a case as the present, some attention ought to be paid to public opinion. Whether officers were promoted on parliamentary influence or were not, an inquiry ought to be instituted.
Captain Gordonvindicated the promotion of midshipmen as being indispensably necessary for the good of the service.
Mr. Grey Bennetsaid, that the only grounds of promotion ought to be merit and standing in the service; and on this ground he was at issue with those who advocated the existing system. The gallant admiral near him had compared

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the present times with the American war, and derived great consolation, as to the conduct of the admiralty, from the comparison. Had the question been agitated during the American war, the reference would then have been to the battle of the Hogue. If at the time of the battle of the Hogue, something worse would have alleged, as to tire fleet which watched the Spanish Armada. He thought we were but too apt to praise our own times at the expense of those long past.
Mr. Secretary Cunningsaid, he had always thought, that the reverse of the hon. gentleman's proposition was the one which was most generally accepted; namely, that we were disposed to extol past times at the expense of the present. He was of opinion, that the case of the hon. mover had been most triumphantly met by his hon. and gallant friend near him. So ably had his hon. and gallant friend justified the principle of selection adopted by the admiralty, that what had been charged as abuse, had turned out to be merit. He considered the question to be resolved into this—whether promotion should go by seniority altogether, or whether a portion of it should be left open to discretion? He contended that the statement of the hon. member had not at all borne out the case which he had pledged himself to establish. With regard to the present state of the navy, he believed that very little difference of opinion existed. He thought that the present plan of the service was the best which could be devised to preserve the glory of the navy in time of war, and to maintain it in peace; and that it was in perfect analogy with the mixed principles of the British constitution.
Sir F. Ommanneyarose amidst loud cries of "question!" mixed with symptoms of disapprobation. We understood him to suggest to the lords of the admiralty the propriety of advancing officers in the navy according to seniority. He particularly recommended to their lordships' consideration that valuable class of officers, who acted as masters and masters mates. He wished to know from the gallant admiral near him, how many masters had been promoted since the war? He felt deeply upon this question, as his own father had been greatly ill-used, and exposed to the most galling and heart-breaking neglect. He trusted that the government of the country would afford protection to those brave officers who had
1100
served their country to the brink of the grave, and not allow them in their latter years to be trodden down like reptiles. The hon. member concluded by moving, by way of an amendment, an address to his majesty, the substance of which was, that while the House of Commons were fully satisfied that the lords of the admiralty discharged the trust reposed in them with fidelity, integrity, and judgment, they felt it necessary to call upon his majesty to take into consideration the propriety of doing away with the practice of making senior captains rear-admirals, with the view of superannuating them; and further to recommend that senior captains should be allowed to pass on regularly to the rank of flag-officers.
The amendment not being seconded, fell of course to the ground.
Mr. Humesaid, he should not delay the House with many observations, as he had, in reality, little to answer. What he contended for had been admitted by the gallant admiral (sir G. Cockburn), and declared by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Canning) to be a most triumphant answer to the charges made; namely, that promotion in the navy was given to branches of noble families and to parliamentary interest; "that it was to that class the country must look for its safety and the House its defence." He refused his assent to that principle, as a new and dangerous one, and contended that merit and length of service were the principles on which promotion in the navy had, in better times, been made, and had raised the navy to its late pre-eminence; and it was on officers so promoted that the country could best rely in the hour of danger. Were not lords St. Vincent, Exmouth, Duncan, Nelson, &c. examples? If every man of family who chose to enter the navy were, agreeably to the gallant officer's declaration, to be intitled to promotion, on his simply passing the number of years required by the service, he trembled for the British navy at no distant period, and he protested against such proceedings—It had been asserted confidently, that a large portion of the promotions had been given to merit, and part only to parliamentary and family interest: in one instance, six to one. But whilst he agreed in the propriety of joining those claims, he contended, that the examination of the navy list would show, that merit and length of service had got but a very small share of the employment or

1101
promotion since the peace. It was most unquestionable that advantage would be derived to the navy by mixing men of family and interest with other officers as long as they could meet on an equality: but, if promotion and commands should be given to those of family and parliamentary influence, so as to dishearten and disgust the officers of long and meritorious service, he contended that the ruin of the service must ensue. He believed, from the testimony of many able officers, that it had already by these means commenced, and, if so, it was time to arrest its progress. The long lists of forty, fifty, and ninety officers of different ranks, which he had produced to the House, remained substantially correct. An attempt had been made to explain the case of lord H. F. Thynne, as one of rank for seven of merit on the foreign-station list for promotion, as if that had taken place by chance, omitting altogether, to answer the charge made by him (Mr. Hume), that the admiralty sent out whatever persons they chose for promotion, and make such arrangements by change of stations and by invaliding, that those they sent out were certain to obtain the intended promotion. These promotions appeared to superficial observers, to be by chance; but it was well known to every naval officer how that was invariably arranged by previous admiralty orders. The gallant admiral had given credit to lord H. F. Thynne for volunteering to go out in a 10 gun brig under a junior officer: it was well known he was sent out for promotion; and when it was uncontradicted that he superseded 3,588 lieutenants when he was made a commander, how many lieutenants must the officer who had been his junior as lieutenant, and who commanded the brig, have superseded? He would inform the House, he believed the person alluded to, was the hon. F. Spencer, who had, when made a commander, superced a 3,642 lieutenants [Hear, hear!]. That admission aggravated the charge in his opinion. It might be true, that the families in opposition to the government also received their share of the promotions, but did that admission do away his charge of family influence, or lessen the evil to the service and the country? Certainly not. The government ought to make a stand against such influence, from which ever side of the House it came: and the best interests of
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the navy required them to do so.—He had proved, by a list of fifty-two, all the commanders now employed (except those on surveys) that only six of that number were old officers; and, as the admiralty would not employ a greater number of of old officers whilst they restricted the claims for promotion at the coronation to those who had served in the last eight years, it was quite evident that the admission completely established the charge he had made—the chances of promotion to the old officers was as six to forty-six.x2014;It had been stated, in rather too highly coloured language, that the Kent and coast blockade were irresistible claims to promotions in the navy; but, for his part, whilst he doubted the advantage of that system to the navy, he did not think that any of the noble families had owed their promotions to that service.—There were fair claims for services at Algiers, in the Red Sea, on the coast of Africa, and in cases of shipwreck, which he would not object to; but he contended that these claims had been mainly neglected, and that far the greater number of promotions had taken place on other grounds; and when he considered the very lame and unsatisfactory answer respecting the royal marine officers and the pursers of the navy, he thought his case was fully substantiated, and he should take the sense of the House on the propriety of an inquiry into the conduct of the Admiralty.
The previous question was then put on the first, second, fourth, fifth, and sixth resolutions and negatived. On the third resolution, the House divided: Ayes 32; Noes 153.

List of the Minority.

Aubrey, sir J.

Nugent, lord

Bernal, R.

Palmer, C. F.

Bright, H.

Pryse, Pryse

Barrett, S. M.

Robarts, col.

Coke, T, W. jun.

Ricardo, D.

Creevey, T.

Stuart, W.

Denman, T.

Sefton, lord

Foley, John

Smith, J,

Griffith, J. W.

Taylor, M. A.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Webb, E.

James, W.

Williams, J.

Jervoise, G. P.

White, L.

Kennedy, T. F.

Wood, M.

Lennard, T. R.

Whitbread, S. C.

Lambton, J. G.

TELLERS.

Maxwell, J.

Hume, J.

Monck, J. B.

Bennet, H. G.

Noel, sir G.

JURORS QUALIFICATION BILL.
Mr. Westernsaid, that he rose to submit to the House a motion which involved in its consequences, matters of very great importance. The object of it, as his notice indicated, went to an alteration in the Constitution of Juries, in so far at least as related to the qualification (by possession of property) of those who may be called upon to perform the important functions of a juror.
The hon. member said, he hoped the House would not be alarmed at the idea of touching the frame and constitution of juries. He was fully of opinion, that the measure he contemplated demanded their most deliberate attention; but still it was such as, he felt confident they would sanction; and which he thought, indeed, had only failed of adoption ere then from pure inadvertence to the great alteration of circumstances which time had induced. His object was, in fact, simply to render persons possessed of personal property to a given amount, as well as real, eligible, that was to say, qualified, and liable to serve as jurors. And when he reflected upon the vast amount and proportion of personal property in this kingdom which had grown up in latter times, and the character and situations in life of the multitude possessing that species of property, and that alone, he thought the House would feel with him that it was surprising that they had not yet been called out to the service of their country as jurors. From the earliest period of history, it would be found that a juror was required to possess a certain amount of property as proof of some respectability and station in life and a consequent security to the party to be tried. The accused person had accordingly a right to challenge a juror, if he did not so possess an adequate amount. It was, indeed, one if not the chief ground of direct challenge; Blackstone, after reciting the four principal grounds of challenge to the jury given by Sir Edward Coke, propter honoris respectum, defectum, affectum, and delictum, says," but the principal is, deficiency of estate sufficient to qualify him to be a juror." A variety of statutes consequently at various periods of our history are to be found, under which the requisite qualifications have been described. By the 13th of Edward the 1st, jurors must be persons that can dispend. 20 s. by the year at the least; which was increased to 40 s. by the 21st of Edward the 1st, and 2nd of-Henry the 5th. The 27th
1104
of Elizabeth enacts, that every juror shall have an estate of freehold to the annual value of 4l. at least. But the value of money decreasing, this qualification was raised, by the 16th and 17th of Charles 2nd to 20 l. per annum. This was a temporary act, and suffered to expire. The 4th and 5th Of William and Mary fixed it at 10 l. per annum in England, and 6l. in Wales, of freehold or copyhold lands; which is the first time copyholders, as such, were admitted to serve on juries in any of the king's courts of Westminster; and then by the 3rd Geo. 2nd any leaseholder of 500 years absolute, or on life or lives of the clear yearly value of 20 l. above the rent reserved, is qualified to serve on juries.
This attention shown by the legislature to the qualification of a juror, is a proof of the importance which has been felt at all times to their possession of some property; and it was as distant as possible from his (Mr. W's.) intention, to derogate in the least degree from the wisdom of our ancestors; on this point, he contended on the contrary that in calling out jurors from the extensive class now excluded, we should more effectually accomplish the real object—that of having responsible and intelligent persons to serve the office. Neither was it any impeachment of the expediency of formerly confining the qualifications to the possession of real property. In former times, every body who had any rank above the lowest class, was an owner of land of some amount, and the possession of land was therefore an indispensable voucher for his responsibility. The case was won derously different now, in this country where the possessors of public securities had an income Collectively amounting nearly to the landed rental of the kingdom, exclusive of joint-stock companies, stocks in trade &c. to an amount beyond all calculation: To Continue these persons under the interdict of antient laws however wise at the time, was now as unwise as could well be conceived. The practical effect was in counties such as might be expected. Not one third of the persons who were, for all real objects, adequately qualified, were ever summoned to the execution of these most important duties. He would not say that the jurors who were summoned were inefficient or incompetent persons; but he would assert that, in the possessors of personal property, there were three times as many not summoned as those who were, that are quite as competent, in every respect, and often much more so.

1105
Three fourths of the occupiers of land, many of the most opulent were not possessors of land to the amount of 10 l. a year, and consequently not qualified, whilst their very labourers, possessing copyhold tenements to that amount, were known, in some instances, to have been called to the performance of what they must have felt a most expensive and onerous service.
But the absurdity of the present system was still more apparent, when we consider that in the city of London and in all cities and towns having a separate jurisdiction, personal property did constitute a qualification. By the 3rd Geo. 2nd, in the city of London, jurors shall be householders possessed of an estate real or personal of the value of 100 l., and 40 l. is sufficient in other corporate jurisdictions. Upon what possible ground, then, could any body advocate the continued exclusion of the possessors of personal property from this important service of their country in counties. He should propose that the persons who shall be considered qualified by this species of property, shall also be householders and assessed to government or parochial taxes to a given amount which would serve as another test of their responsibility and a prima facie evidence of their possessing the requisite amount of personal property—Mr. W said, he perceived the House was impatient to proceed in the other important business before them, and he believed, he had said fully enough to induce them to acquiesce in the motion, for leave to bring in a bill "to render eligible end qualified persons possessed of a given amount of personal property to serve as jurors."
Mr. Lesterseconded the motion.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, the question was of such vital importance, that he certainly should not oppose the bringing in of the bill, though he hoped the hon. member would allow ample time for its consideration. The House would recollect that last year an experiment had been made of the benefit likely to accrue from the establishment of a third assize, This had been found completely successful in the home counties, and it was most desirable that it should be extended to all. It was, however so closely bound up with the measure which the hon. member for Essex had in had that they ought to watch with caution how far the one was likely to impede the other.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill. It was afterwards brought in, com-
1106
mitted, and the blanks filled up. The amount of personal property proposed was 400 l. and the occupation of house assessed to house-duty or poor-rates in Middlesex 30 l. per annum: in other counties 20 l. and where assessed for land occupied 80 l. Notice to be left at the house of persons summoned to serve, a printed schedule for constables to make returns, specifying particulars of residence and property. Nobody to be summoned turned of sixty-five years of age; and one or two other minor regulations.

CORONATION EXPENSES.
Mr. Humenow rose to submit his motion on this subject. His objection, he observed, was not so much to the amount of the money expended, as to the principle of its application. A part of it, the House was aware, was paid out of the money given by France as indemnity to this country. The whole sum amongst the several allied powers was 750,000,000 of francs, of which 125,000,000 were paid as our portion. In 1816, the House were told that details would be given of the application of the sums received by this country. The House, however, did not hear of it till 1821, when the late Chanceller of the Exchequer stated, that there were 500,000 l. of it applicable to the service of the year That right hon. gentleman added, that he could not then state the amount of the remainder, but that whatever it might be, it would be made applicable in the same manner, and an account given of it in the next year, of which it would form part of the ways and means. The House, however, had got not further particulars of it since then. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer had distinctly stated, that the whole surplus would be applied to the service of the year; and what he (Mr. H.) complained of was, that instead of having this account given, 138,000 l, of the sum had been applied without the knowledge and consent of parliament. This he complained of as a breach of faith with the House and the country, that the money should have been applied in this unwarrantable and unconstitutional manner; and it was the duty of the House to inquire into the case, which could not be better done than by the appointment of a committee. He had also to complain of the great excess of the expense of the coronation beyond the estimate. What was the use of an estimate, if it did not approximate, in

1107
some degree, to the sum to be expended? They were first told that 100,000 l. would very probably cover the whole expense, and a sum to that amount was voted by the House; but they now found, that instead of 100,000 l., the sum expended was not less than 238,000 l. It was said, that the expense had been considerably increased by the delay of the coronation from 1820 to 1821. That might be; but why, in that case, was not a new estimate laid before the House in 1821? He had asked, in 1820, whether it was considered that the 100,000 l. would be sufficient, and he was answered, that it would. Now this was unfair; for he was satisfied, that if the whole sum was mentioned to the House at first, it would have required greater persuasion than had been used to induce them to consent to it. Next, as to the application of this immense sum. He would wish to know something on the subject, and he thought the House had a right to expect it—not merely as a matter of curiosity, though that might not be out of the case, but as a matter in which they were interested as guardians of the public purse. He should wish to know, how it happened that such an expense should be incurred for robes. He should like to be informed why that bauble—the crown worn at the coronation—was kept so long at such a considerable expense to the country. He did not know whether it might not have been returned a month or two ago, but he did say, it was an unnecessary expense to have kept it so long at an increased expense. The whole of the jewels of which it was composed was about 70,000 l., and the retention of it had entailed an expense of 6,000 l. or 7,000 l. a year on the country. Why was there so much concealment on a subject which ought to have been open to the investigation of parliament? It was not creditable to ministers to use this concealment. If the expenditure had been just and unavoidable, a committee would not be objected to. The committee could investigate the whole subject in eight and forty hours. There could therefore be no objection to the appointment of it on the score of time. The hon. member concluded by moving, "That a select committee be appointed to inquire into the circumstances which occasioned, in the expenses of his majesty's coronation, an excess of expenditure of 138,238 l. more than the estimate of 1820, and into the several items constituting that expen-
1108
diture; and also, to inquire by: what authority the sum of 138,288 l. has been applied to discharge that excess without, the previous sanction of this House."
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he would not rest his objection to the committee, on any wish to conceal from the House the manner in which the sum expended on the coronation had been applied. There was no wish of that kind on the part of government: indeed, it was not imputed that any misapplication had taken place, though an imputation had been cast of a desire for concealment. With respect to the first estimate being so much less than the sum subsequently expended, he would say, that many of the services at the coronation performed by the household were abolished by Mr. Burke's bill, and no traces were left as to what the expenses of particular departments would be likely to create. They were left almost to guess in many instances; so that there could be no certainly as to the whole sum: and when in 1820, it was fixed at 100,000 l., it was thought that that sum would be sufficient. It should, however, be recollected, that the expense of every department was greater at the present time, than it had been sixty years ago. With respect to the crown and robes, there had been a charge which could not at first have been contemplated. The value set on the jewels of the crown was 6.5,000 l., for which 10 per cent was paid. There were, besides, other parts of the regalia for which jewels had been hired; for instances, stance, the circlet which was always worn by the sovereign on such occasions. The one formerly in use was so much out of repair, that it was necessary to hare several additional jewels added. This occasioned a considerable expense. At the coronation of George III., the jewels hired were valued at 370,000 l. and though the percentage at which they were hired was much less than on the present occasion, yet the expense of them for one day was 15,000 l. The delay of the coronation from 1820 to 1821 had also considerably enhanced the expense. The crown was made in 1820, in the expectation that it would have been used in that year: and the jeweller was entitled to his percentage for that year as well as for the next. This made the expense on that item double the amount anticipated After the coronation it was thought that the crown might be purchased to add to the

1109
royal regalia, to prevent the necessity of hiring jewels on future occasions. But government, knowing that the expense of purchasing the crown would amount to 6.5,000 l., felt that they should not be justified in purchasing it, until they knew what the whole expenses of the coronation would amount to; for if they should be greater than the calculated amount, as actually was the case, they were not willing to increase them by the purchase in question. It was only right for him to state that his majesty was strongly inclined to sacrifice a large portion of that part of of the civil list which was more immediately under his own control, for the purpose of purchasing a permanent crown, and placing it among the regalia of the kingdom. But as his majesty, with that consideration which marked every action of his life, had last year determined to give up to the wants of his people 30,000 l. from that part of his income out of which he intended to purchase this crown, it was impossible for him to conclude the purchase, until it was previously known how far it was possible to bring the expenses of his household under the still more limited scale which it would be then necessary to adopt. It was necessary that some months should elapse before that problem could be solved; and it was not till the commencement of the present year, that it was ascertained that the royal establishment could not be conducted upon so limited an expenditure as his majesty wished. As soon as that point was ascertained, the crown was sent back; but still the expense of detaining it was incurred. If it had been found expedient to purchase this crown, and it had been detained so long in hopes that it would so be found, its price would not have been enhanced by the detention, for the jeweller was not to have more than 65,000 l. for it. If, in the interim, it had been sent back to him, and he had kept it in the same condition as it was at the coronation, it was only natural to suppose that he would, in all probability have asked a larger sum for it, seeing that he could not make any use of or profit by the jewels which were set in it. It was sent back to him, however, as soon as it was discovered that the expense of purchasing it was too great to be defrayed out of his majesty's personal revenues. The other item on which the hon. member called for explanation was the robes. That item was certainly a great one. It
1110
amounted to 24,000 l.; but he could assure the House that there was nothing with regard to those robes that was inconsistent with the usage of former coronations. The ceremony required that there should be two dresses of a peculiar construction; and the dresses used upon the last were in every respect similar to those used upon former occasions. He could not pretend to say whether there was or was not more fur on the last robes than on any other; neither could he pretend to decide, whether the gold lace was or was not a quarter of an inch broader than it had ever been before. He had no means of making a comparison upon such a point; and therefore he thought that the House would be little benefitted by entering into the proposed inquiry. A great part of the expense of those robes, arose from the high price of ermine; but it also arose from another cause, to which he thought it necessary to allude; because, though the articles in question were properly included in these expenses they still remained in use. It was usual to purchase a new set of robes for every new sovereign to appear in on the solemn occasions of his meeting and proroguing his parliament; and those robes had generally borne some reference to those which the sovereign had worn upon his coronation. It was true that his late majesty had not ordered hew robes for that purpose; but that very circumstance had rendered it necessary for his present majesty to purchase them. The robes which his majesty had worn before his coronation were nearly a century old. They were patched and stitched together in several places; and indeed were so rotten, that if any person had trod upon them, they would have fallen immediately from his majesty's shoulders. It would not, therefore, surprise the House to hear that his majesty had ordered new parliamentary robes. The expense of them was included in the item of 24,000 l., which had been rendered so high by the great rise of price in several of the articles which it covered. Having adverted to the two great points on which the hon. member had dilated, be would now touch upon the breach of faith with which he had charged his noble predecessor in office. His noble predecessor had certainly stated, that the amount of the expenses of the coronation would not exceed 100,000 l.; but when the nature of the ceremony, the rarity of its occurrence, and the circumstance of there being

1111
nothing to guide his noble friend in the calculation of its expenses, were taken into consideration, no person could be surprised that the actual expenses surpassed the estimate. He would also say a few words upon the application of the French indemnity fund towards defraying these expenses—an application by which the hon. member appeared to think that ministers had been guilty of a great unconstitutional impropriety, though they bad not been guilty of any actual breach of the law. He would admit, that in 1816, when the hon. member for Knares-borough made a motion for the House to dispose of this fund by its vote, without the king's direction, his noble predecessor had disclaimed the right of the king to them as a droit of the Crown. But, his noble predecessor had at the same time contended, that this money, being derivable to the Crown by a treaty with a foreign power, though not a droit of the Crown, was a fund applicable by the Crowd to the public service, without the intervention of parliament. Parliament had since, by its conduct, given its sanction to that declaration of his noble friend. The money had not been applied to any individual, but to a public service. That service had been, perhaps, more expensive than suited the notions of the hon. member for Aberdeen; but, if they were to have a monarchical government, then there were certain expenses connected with the administration of that government which they could not avoid. Being convinced that no case for inquiry had been made out, he should meet the motion with a direct negative.
The House divided: Ayes, 77; Noes, 127.

List of the Minority.

Abercromby, hon. J.

Farrend, R.

Bankes, H.

Fergusson, sir R. C.

Barratt, S. M.

Foley, T. H.

Belgrave, vis.

Grant, J. P.

Benett, John

Grattan, J.

Benyon, B.

Griffiths, T. W.

Bernal, R.

Gordon, R.

Birch, J.

Heathcote, G. T.

Bright, H.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Brougham, H.

Honywood, W. P.

Carter, J.

James, W.

Clifton, vis.

Jervoise, G. P.

Coke, F. W.

King, sir J. D.

Colburne, N. R.

Kennedy, T. F.

Creevey, T.

Knight, R.

Denman, T.

Lambton, T. G.

Duncannon, vis.

Lennard, F. B.

Ellis, hon. G. A.

Leycester, R.

1112

Leader, W.

Russell, lord G. W.

Maberly, J.

Searleft, J.

Maberly, W. L.

Scott, J.

Martin, J.

Smith, J.

Maxwell, J.

Smith, hon. R.

Milbank, M.

Smith, W.

Monck, J. B.

Stewart, W. (Tyrone)

Musgrave, sir P.

'Taylor, M. A.

Normanby, vis.

Tierney, right hon. G.

Nugent, lord

Titchfield, marquis of

Noel, sir G.

Townshend, lord C.

O'Callaghan, J.

Webbe, E.

Ord, W.

Western, C. C.

Palmer, C. F.

Whilbread, S. C.

Pares, T.

Whitbread, W. H.

Powlett, hon. W.

Williams, J.

Pryse, P.

Williams, sir R.

Ricardo, D.

Williams, T. P.

Robarts, G. J.

Wood, M.

Robinson, sir G.

TELLERS.

Rowley, sir W.

Hume, J.

Russell, lord J.

Bennet, H. G.

STATE OF IRELAND.
The Duke of Devonshirerose to submit his promised motion on the State of Ireland, and spoke nearly as follows:—My lords; it was not my intention to occupy the time of your lordships until an opportunity should present itself on the discussion of the subject which, was expected before this to have been brought under the consideration of this House. But fearing that the delay which has occurred in another place might prevent that discussion from coming on in due time, and feeling, that it would be a great misfortune if this session of parliament were suffered to terminate its proceedings without allotting one night at least to the consideration of the State of Ireland—of the wrongs of its people—of the acts and conduct of its government; I have, therefore, my lords, however ill qualified to discuss a subject so important and so comprehensive, yet, trusting to the indulgence of this House, and to the active support of the noble friends by whom I am surrounded, stept forward to call your attention to the state of Ireland, to the sufferings, and just complaints of the people. My lords, I am the more desirous to do so, because it is easy to foresee that we shall be again called upon to continue that rigorous and coercive system under which Ireland is suffering—under which she has suffered so deeply and so long. My lords, I am most anxious to suggest to the House the means that strike my mind, as best calculated to lead the way to the mitigation of those evils which have damped the energies, and retarded the progress of improvement in a country rich in natural advantages, and richer still in the character of its inhabitants.
My lords, the distracted state of Ireland at this moment, the distress and discontent which prevail there, shew that there is something essentially wrong in the nature of its government. Where a people are suffered to to live under the fair protection of just and equal laws—where industry is encouraged and rewarded, and the necessaries and comforts of life are enjoyed, it is scarcely possible to suppose that the
1034
people would wantonly put to hazard the security of themselves and their families for the purpose of actively engaging in a conspiracy against the authority of the government and the laws—a course of conduct which would, sooner or later, lead to shame and punishment. My lords, in a country where the laws are not respected by the people, and the people are not protected by the laws, it follows that the system of government is defective—that the laws have not been sufficient to eradicate evils which have been fostered by ancient prejudices and a long course of bad administration. It is, therefore, in such a state of things, the duty of the legislature to adjust a new and improved system, to the end that the people maybe righted and the government strengthened. My lords, we are all acquainted with the melancholy truth—not only that the state of Ireland is alarming, but that it is most difficult to devise a speedy and effectual remedy. But surely, my lords, it cannot be too strongly impressed on the minds of your lordships, seeing that laws are actually in progress to suspend the most dear and valuable rights of the people of Ireland, that those rights ought not to be interfered with, without at least an attempt being made by the House, to ascertain the causes of the present discontents, to remove prevailing abuses, and to place in their stead a wise, a liberal and a permanent system of government.
My lords, in tracing the present evils of Ireland, it cannot be denied that the state of the laws which affect and degrade the Catholic population is one great and prevailing cause of discontent. My lords, whilst all relaxation of those laws is sternly refused—a course equally opposed to the principles of sound policy and of public justice—it is in vain to hope that any human power can establish the real and permanent tranquillity of Ireland. My lords, it is high time for the House to take into its consideration the state of the Catholic question. Until you set that question at rest, by conceding to the people their rights, it is impossible for you to abandon that system of exclusion, of partiality, and of injustice which has so long prevailed—it is impossible to mitigate the evils that have sprung from that system—or to conciliate the majority of the people, who differ in religious opinions from the Established church. It would be very foolish to say, that the adjustment of the Catholic question would

1035
be alone sufficient to remedy the misfortunes of Ireland. No, my lords, the miseries which afflict her have been too long cherished, have sprung from too many sources, to be removed by a single measure; but, whilst that measure is left undecided, whilst so much cause of discontent and jealousy remains, it cannot fail to excite irritation, to foster disunion and to interrupt the progress of every beneficial or conciliatory measure that may hereafter be adopted.
My lords, the state of the Irish government—its policy—its practice demand a complete and thorough examination. In a country discontented and divided as Ireland is, no hope of amendment can be cherished—no safety for the people, no respect for the government can be established—unless equal laws are enacted, and an equal and impartial distribution of justice is observed towards all classes of his majesty's subjects. My lords, there is but too much reason to fear that the narrow and illiberal policy of those who have, unfortunately for Ireland, borne sway in that country so long, has greatly diminished, in the eyes of the people, that respect for the laws, and that confidence in the pure and impartial administration, which it is so desirable to inculcate in the breasts of the people. My lords, a very different system is now carried on, with reference to the government, from that which policy, justice, experience, would sanction—a system of indecision and of trimming—a system which can inspire no confidence, and achieve no good object. My lords, the reasonable but ardent hopes that were entertained by the people of Ireland have been destroyed. Their claims—far from being satisfied—have scarcely received the benefit of a common discussion; subjects, deeply affecting the peace and safety of that country have been passed over; hare been trifled with—and those who have acted thus have defended this unjust, improper, and unconstitutional course, by declaring that their object was, not to give a triumph to either party. The natural consequence of such conduct has been to spread the progress of discontent. The truth, my lords, is, that the power and government of Ireland are entirely in the hands of a small number of men, known by the name of Orangemen. They are strongly opposed to the people in feeling and in interest. Conscious that they have no claim on the confidence of their countrymen, whom they have uniformly in-
1036
suited and oppressed, they act on the principle of fear and hatred; on the cither hand, the people, looking on those men as the authors of all their sufferings, naturally entertain jealousy and suspicion towards them. Such is the melancholy state of things in Ireland, and so must it continue, as long as one party is put in authority over another.
My lords, can any one doubt that it is the first duty of the legislature to remedy, if possible, a state so shocking and alarming, as that which Ireland now presents? But it is not by half measures—it is not by divided councils—it is not by the doctrine, that a triumph must not be given to either party—that that remedy can be applied. One law for the Protestant, another for the Catholic—one for coercion, another for relaxation. Such a state of administration—such a system of policy upon subjects of the most vital interest—can inspire no confidence, and lead to no good results. My lords, the course which it is your duty to pursue is plain. You must either adapt the system of your government to popular feelings and interests, or, on the other hand, you must invest the Orange party with the strongest power, and put down by force, the claims and hopes of the people.
My lords, there is another cause of discontent in Ireland to which I must alluded I mean the Tithe system. In the course of the last session, a pledge was given by a noble earl at the head of his majesty's government, that the subject of tithes should be taken into consideration; and certainly ministers have so far redeemed that pledge, as to introduce a measure which is now in progress in another place. It would therefore be improper for me to say anything with respect to that measure. I shall content myself with expressing a hope that it may not turn out to be absolutely nugatory; that it may have a good effect on the public feeling; that it may give comfort and tranquillity to the people, safety to the government, and security to the Established Church.
My lords, in conclusion, if I may be allowed to hazard an opinion with respect to the measures that are necessary and desirable, I should urge the concession of the Catholic claims—a liberal and satisfactory arrangement with respect to tithes—an abridgment of the power of that exclusively Protestant party who have so long and so shamefully ruled Ireland—and a just and impartial administration of the

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laws. If it should be said, that with respect to some of these measures, ministers are disposed to adopt them, then, my lords, it is our duty to see that the measures of ministers are really efficient—that they are not such as can only prove more clearly the evils complained of—but measures of importance calculated to ameliorate the condition of the people. My lords, the appointment of the noble marquis at present at the head of the government of Ireland to that important station, was heard of with great satisfaction, and inspired his countrymen with considerable hope; but I cannot help expressing my disappointment that the opinions of that noble person on the state of Ireland have not been communicated to the House. It is impossible that he must not have formed an opinion on the events which have taken place in that country for the last year. I should be curious to ascertain if the noble marquis adheres to the opinions formerly delivered by him in this House. If he does adhere to them, then I should like to ascertain how it has happened that those views have not been acted upon. My lords, feeling strongly that inquiry into the state of Ireland is called for by policy and necessity—that it cannot fail to produce a most salutary effect, if the people can be made to believe, that there is a fixed purpose on the part of the legislature to inquire into the grounds of the evils which oppress them, that, whilst the government have been obliged to have recourse to the extremity of power, the parliament have shown a disposition to introduce and carry into effect measures calculated to heal the wounds which oppression had made, calculated to promote the interests, to increase the happiness, to enlarge and secure the liberties of the people. I beg to propose the following resolutions:—

1. "That this House has learnt with the deepest regret, from the information laid before it during the present session, by command of his majesty, that a general spirit of violence, manifesting itself in outrages of the most alarming nature, has for some time prevailed in many parts of Ireland, and that, in the opinions of his majesty's government, extraordinary powers are required for the protection of the persons and property of his majesty's subjects in that kingdom.

2. "That this House will be ready to concur in any measures which may be found indispensable for the prompt and
1038
effectual suppression of these, disorders; but experience has proved, that coercion and force, however necessary to avert a pressing and immediate danger, have not been sufficient to eradicate evils, whose magnitude and frequent recurrence induce a belief that there must exist sortie material defect in the state and administration of the laws, and the system of the government; to the examination of which, with a view to the adoption of more permanent and effectual remedies it is the duty of this House to apply itself without further delay."

Earl Bathurstdenied that there was any evidence to substantiate the charges against his majesty's government which the noble duke s speech contained. That the parliament had, since the period of the Union, been employed solely in passing coercive measures, it was sufficient to refer to the Statute book, to see the unfounded nature of that charge. The agriculture of Ireland was undoubtedly an object, of the first importance; and, in 1806, the free importation of corn was allowed into this country from Ireland, at the same time that the free importation from foreign countries and from our own colonies was forbidden, and the monopoly of the grain market was thus given to Ireland. And at a subsequent period, when the prices were raised at which corn might be imported into this country from foreign countries and from our colonies, it was suffered to remain in the same state as to Ireland. However much political economists differed as to the propriety of the measure, they all agreed that it was the most important boon which could be conceded; and, if their lordships referred to the quantities imported, they would see that, in the last year, it was quadrupled, as compared with the year before the Union. Let their lordships also look to the different measures that had been introduced for the improvement of the administration of justice in that country; which was the first object to which the noble duke had called their attention; but from the manner in which he had commented on it, their lordships might be led to suppose that no one measure had been adopted relative to it. The noble earl here instanced the present improved mode of selecting the sheriffs, which was now similar to the practice in this country; the corrected mode of levying fines where recognizances were forfeited; the improvement of receiving evidence by grand

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juries, and not, as before, finding their bills on the depositions taken before the magistrates; and lastly, the Police bill, which had recently been passed, and of the good effects of which they had the testimony of the noble marquis at the head of his majesty's government in Ireland. There was also the introduction of petty sessions into that country—a measure of the greatest practical utility, and conducive in a great degree to the ends of justice. It had been the practice of a man who had a complaint to make, to go before some magistrate who he imagined, from similarity of political sentiment or other causes, might be favourable to him; but now, each magistrate was checked by his fellows, and by their acting under the control of public opinion. The control also which was placed on local taxation by the grand jury presentments bill, would be a great advantage to the country. The importance of this measure would be apparent to the House, when they recollected, that at the time when the whole revenue of Ireland was only four millions there was little less than one million collected under the authority of grand jury presentments, of which no account was rendered to the public. Another measure by which Ireland had been benefitted was, the advance of money for public works, to be repaid by instalments, and the sums granted for extending and improving the fisheries. The noble lord (Clare) who seconded the petition presented by a noble duke (the duke of Leinster) relative to Mr. Owen's plan, had thought proper to complain, that government had done nothing towards providing for the poor of Ireland; but, if their lordships would compare the sum voted this year for that purpose (30,000 l.), and look to the sum which was voted by the Irish parliament (only 300 l.), that comparison was sufficient to relieve the Imperial parliament from the charge of neglecting that country. If the subject of the noble duke's petition should be thought necessary to be considered, there was every disposition in his majesty's government to take it into the fullest consideration. Not that he meant to give any opinion on Mr. Owen's plan, but merely to express the desire of his majesty's government to concur in any rational plan for the improvement of the condition of the people of Ireland. The consolidation of the two exchequers was another measure of great benefit to Ireland. By
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that measure she was relieved from the payment of the two-seventeenths of the annual charge, as stipulated by the act of Union; and the present amount that she paid was, in fact, only two-twenty-sevenths instead of two-seventeenths. By this measure the taxation of that country had also been greatly relieved. Last year the window-light duties had been considerably lessened; and this year still further reductions of taxation were to take place; and Ireland was about to be relieved from all assessed taxes, at the same time that this country remained burdened with a great proportion of those taxes. Was it, then, fair to represent the parliament as being only employed in devising measures of coercion? It was very true, that as the coercive measures were always confined to a limited period, it was frequently necessary to renew them: but the measures for the benefit of Ireland were at once rendered permanent, and were acting at that moment silently and beneficially for her advantage. The noble duke had complained, that there was no conciliation in the councils of his majesty's government; but, did not the measures he had already enumerated deserve the name of conciliation? They were not intended, nor did they operate to benefit one class of people to the injury of another. They embraced the whole community in their influence, and extended relief upon a scale the most universal. As to the question called Catholic Emancipation, it was too large a subject to be discussed in conjunction with others. He was sure, therefore, that he need not apologise to their lordships for declining to enter into it on the present occasion. With respect to the motion now before their lordships, it differed little from that which was made by a noble marquis last year. The noble marquis had then recommended that the duties on the distillation of spirits should be lowered, and it had been done. The noble marquis had recommended that the country should be relieved in its taxation; and it had been done. He had complained of the evils arising from the number of absentees, and had represented the necessity of adopting some measure calculated to encourage the residence of the gentry of Ireland. The removal of the assessed taxes was an encouragement of that nature. Another benefit was, the commutation of tithes, now under consideration; and whatever could be done for the general good of Ireland would

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continue to find, as it had found in these instances, an honest attention on the part of his majesty's government. For the reasons he had stated, he could not agree to the proposition of the noble duke; but, being unwilling to meet it with a direct negative, he would content himself with moving the previous question.
The Earl of Claresaid, that his noble friend seemed to think he had complained that government had done nothing for Ireland. Now, his observation was, that enough had not been done in the way of amelioration, and that the extent of the wretchedness was not known in this country.
Viscount Clifdensaid, he was aware that, according to the arrangement made at the time of the Union, Ireland was to pay about seven millions and a half towards the general expenses of the empire. But the wretchedness to which that country was reduced rendered the payment impossible. Government, however, would have a Union, and they must take the consequences. One of the great grievances of Ireland was, the number of her absentees, which number the Union had increased; but the evils which a long system of misgovernment had imposed upon that unhappy country, were as numerous as the stars of heaven. He Strongly condemned the tithe-system in Ireland; which, he said, had been the main cause of all the burning and bloodshed which had occurred. Even in England the tithes occasioned great discontent, but in Ireland they produced misery unparalleled. It was said, that tithes were of divine origin. It might be so; but this he knew, that they were the cause of envy, hatred, malice, and all uncharitableness. The very mode of their collection was oppressive in the extreme. The proctor did not go till the crop was taken off die grounds; and then, if the farmer did not agree to his valuation, and submit to his demand, he was taken into the Bishop's Court, where the vicar-general was not only a churchman, but was judge and jury in his own cause. Their lordships as a body, knew no more of the state of Ireland and her sufferings, than they did of the state of Japan. He did not pretend to decide the precise point where obedience terminated, and resistance might begin; bat this he knew, that it would be difficult to conceive a case of greater oppression than that of empowering a person to decide in his
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own cause, however respectable, his character or pure his intentions might be. The noble earl had taken credit for a bill to mitigate the pressure of the tithe system; but it was a question whether the bill would ever come up to that House; and he could tell the reverend bench, that they would receive no more, tithe from Ireland. In Ulster, the population was not in the same state of wretchedness and violence as in the other three provinces; because the penal restrictions which had brought ruin and desolation on the other parts had never been enforced there. This was a sufficient comment upon the tendency of those laws. The noble lord then took a review of the different branches of trade which had fallen away through discouragement, and noticed the expression of a gentleman then high in office, with respect to the woollen trade; namely, that every pound of wool manufactured in Ireland was so much loss to England. In, consequence of this policy, the woollen trade had been driven out of Ireland, and then came an idle and indigent population, and an inveterate spirit of hatred—the natural result of such ill-judged proceedings. Such was not the policy of Russia, nor of Frederic of Prussia, a cut-throat and a robber as he was; the one attempted to introduce manufactures into the wastes of Poland, and the other into the sands of Magdeburgh. He believed that there was none of that commercial jealousy now, but the impression was still left, and until it was removed from the minds of the people by the liberality of the government, it was vain to expect that the union of the countries could be complete. They should repeal the last letter of that absurd and vicious penal code, under which so many calamities had grown up, and lighten the burthens of the, Church Establishment. The Irish established church was a church without a flock, and though they might provide otherwise for the support of the clergy, the payment of tithe was out of the question. He wished for nothing more anxiously than to see the two islands united, in the true sense of the word. When that was happily accomplished, England would become the great country she had been; but until was, Ireland would continue to be a millstone round her neck, and a source of weakness instead of, strength. The noble lord concluded by expressing his determination to support the motion.
The Earl of Darnleysaid, he had been anxious, from the beginning of the session, to draw the attention of the House to the important subject now before it, and should, therefore take that early period of the debate for submitting his sentiments to their lordships' consideration: He felt that the time was now come, when the government should put its shoulder boldly to the wheel, and without fear of consequences, reverse the system which had been so long and injuriously acted upon in the sister country. If a decisive step of this sort were not speedily adopted, that island, which might have been made the best bulwark of the empire, must inevitably fall to destruction. Although many laws had passed within the last twenty years for the amelioration of the sister country, they had proved of little use. Even recently, after having confided in the hopes which were held out by his majesty's ministers that the situation of Ireland would engage their closest attention, although they certainly had introduced some acts which appeared to be of a beneficial tendency, he was now obliged to come to the conclusion, that nothing had actually been done for the unfortunate country in question. It was indeed true, that, in the other House of Parliament, many wearisome nights had been spent upon a late investigation relative to Ireland; but, instead of its producing any benefit to that country, the result had been—the triumph of an intolerant party and the elevation of an obscure stationer in Dublin to the head of the Orange faction. He must also admit that the subject of the Commutation of Tithe had engaged the attention of the other House of Parliament; but he doubted whether their lordships would ever see the consummation of the measure. The bills which his majesty's government had brought in, with the view of relieving; Ireland from the oppression of tithe, gave, In reality, no satisfaction to those most conversant with the state of that island. On the contrary, it was believed, that those bills would not only enable the Church to exact as much as it did now, but even a greater amount of revenue. The policy of England, ever since its connection with Ireland, was, he regretted to say, directly the reverse of all other countries similarly circumstanced. The principle upon which it proceeded was, that of dividing the people against themselves, and of maintaining a difference
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between the English and the Irish part of the inhabitants, which was the bane of both. The consequence was, that many of the Irish still detested the name of England, whose oppressions they had felt, but in the benefit of whose laws and constitution they had never participated. Upon this ground alone he might rest his support of the inquiry which his noble friend had demanded. But there was another question, which, although this was not the proper time to enter into its discussion, he could not avoid some allusion to—he meant Catholic Emancipation. That question had been argued over and over again, until its adversaries were felt without any thing to oppose to it but vague insinuations; and although hitherto rejected on such grounds, he would ask, whether it would be possible much longer to withhold their rights from six millions of his majesty's subjects? Last year a branch of the subject had come before their lordships; namely, the restoration of six of the oldest peers in the realm to their seats in that House, some of whom enjoyed the highest hereditary dignities, but whose ancestors had been deprived of their birthright in moments of public delusion. Their petition had been rejected. But, though those six noble persons might be thus treated without danger to the state, did their lordships think that six millions of Irish Catholics would bear with the same impunity their present degradation? Were they prepared to allow the grievances of that great body to remain unredressed, and to encounter the dangers of such a population, should a state of war again arise, and an invasion of that part of the empire be contemplated by the enemy? He did not mean to say that Catholic Emancipation was the panacea for all the evils which afflicted Ireland; for in his opinion, nothing short of a complete revision and change of the whole system would answer any good purpose. On the subject of the present government of Ireland, he wished to say little. He had, from early life, the highest regard for the abilities of the noble marquis who was now at the head of that government; but he confessed that he had heard with astonishment and regret, his acceptance of office under the present administration, composed of a cabinet decorated with all the hues of the rainbow, except that the orange colour predominated; a cabinet inconsistent in all their principles of governing Ireland, and

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consistent only in their fixed determination to retain their places.—After Catholic Emancipation, came the question of Tithes; and upon that subject, he was sorry to say that the milk-and-water measure now in progress elsewere, was likely to be futile. What was there in the situation of the Irish peasant which was to render him satisfied with his condition? Compare it with that of the English peasant. The latter had, in general, the means of labour, and some comfort and security in his cottage; but the poor Irish peasant was left without adequate employment. He was the victim, of every species of petty exaction. The little spot of ground allotted to him was exorbitantly valued—the last farthing was wrung from him, minus what was necessary for bare animal existence. The great evil was the want of employment for the people; which, coupled with the exorbitant charge imposed on them for their potatoe-gardens, left them in a state of utter destitution. The government, perhaps, could not do much directly, in supplying the people with employment, but still some relief might be given in that way, by the making of canals, the construction of public works, and the establishment of manufactures. Much, of course, rested with individuals; and it particularly behoved the Irish landed proprietors to encourage industrious habits among the poorer classes. In this respect, his noble friend who had introduced the present motion had set a noble example to the other proprietors of Irish estates. He (earl D.) had endeavoured, at an humble distance, to tread in the steps of the noble duke; and he could say, from experience, that giving employment to the people of Ireland was, the best means of insuring the tranquillity of the country. But, as long as the present system of government was pursued—a system which gave the word of promise to the ear, but broke it to the hopes, of the people of Ireland, no real permanent advantage to the country could be expected. He was afraid it was useless to anticipate any change of measures on the part of his majesty's ministers, unless parliament compelled them to adopt a new course. He did not, therefore, ask too much, when he intreated the House to step forward, and save Ireland, if possible, before it was too late. England, great as she was, would not be able, in the existing state of Europe, to govern that country much longer with the sword;
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and he trusted, that this consideration would induce their lordships to adopt the present motion.
The Earl of Gosfordsaid, that a more important motion than the present never came before their lordships. The measures which had been hitherto adopted to tranquilize Ireland, had entirely failed of their object, and that country was at the present moment on the very verge of rebellion. He therefore trusted, that the House would not separate, without taking some steps for the protection of the peaceable and well-affected part of the community. Hitherto, the whole system pursued in Ireland had been one of mal-administration: and until it was reformed, there could be no hope that the situation of the sister country would improve.
The Earl of Caledonsaid, that, in his opinion, all the expectations which had been formed from the present government of Ireland had hitherto been totally disappointed.
Lord Maryboroughsaid, that the present was a question which touched so intimately on a country with which he had been long and extensively connected, that he should not consider-that he had discharged his duty to the administration of which he formed a part, to his noble relation at the head of the Irish government, or to himself, if he did not avail himself of the earliest opportunity of stating his sentiments to the House, and of giving his decided negative to the motion. It was impossible to conceive a motion of more importance at the present moment, than that which the noble duke had felt it his duty to submit to the consideration of the House. No man was more sensible than he was, of the sincerity of the wishes which the noble duke had expressed for the welfare of Ireland, or knew better than he did the benefits which he had conferred on his numerous tenantry. He was ready to acknowledge the dignity and propriety with which the noble duke had brought forward the motion; but he must confess, that there was, at the same time, something in the manner in which the noble duke had stated his views on the subject to the House, which did injustice, not only to the present administration and to the present parliament, but to every administration which had governed Ireland, and to every parliament which had sat from the period of the Union to the present day. Before their lordships came to a division upon this question, they ought

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to, and they undoubtedly would, take the whole case and all its circumstance into their consideration: they ought to inquire how much the parliament and the government had done for Ireland. The noble duke had represented the case of Ireland, as if nothing had been resorted to for its government since the Union but coercion, he had completely kept out of sight all the boons which had been conferred on that country by the united parliament. But, after what had been stated by his noble friend, it was impossible for any noble lord to doubt that great attention had been paid by the successive parliaments and administrations, to the state of Ireland; that her interests had been consulted, and her welfare promoted. It was impossible to deny, that if the parliament had not gone quite so far as some noble lords professed to wish, yet it had gone a great way towards ameliorating the condition of the people of Ireland. But, thought the speech of his noble friend contained, in his opinion, a complete vindication, not only of the present but of the former governments of Ireland, yet he was anxious to add a few words to that statement, because it was highly necessary that their lordships should be in possession of all the facts of the case, before they came to a decision, which in substance, if not in form, tended to pass a vote of censure upon every administration and every parliament since the Union [hear! Hear!] One of the grievances complained of by the noble lords opposite was, the want of Education among the lower classes in Ireland. But why had not the noble duke stated to their lordships what efforts had been made by parliament to overcome that evil? In the first place, commissions had been appointed to inquire into every charitable, every royal, and every other foundation for the education of the poor in Ireland. The commissioners had faithfully and diligently exercised the trust reposed in them. They had found, that many abuses did exist, to which they had immediately applied remedies; and he was happy to say, that there did not at the present moment exist a single evil pointed out in the reports of these commissioners. He spoke now in the presence of noble lords who were as well acquainted with the reports of those commissioners, and with the results which had followed from their labours, as he could pretend to be; and he now called upon them to contradict him, if that which
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he stated was not correct [hear hear!] In the 14th report the commissioners went so far as to recommend, that a seminary should be established for the education of schoolmasters to be sent into different parts of the country to instruct the poor; and that these schoolmasters should not be educated upon any exclusive system of religion. That report had been taken, into the serious consideration of government, and a seminary for the education of schoolmasters was established. And lest it should be supposed that government had the slightest wish to trench upon the consciences of the Roman Catholic, that seminary had been placed under the control of a board existing in Dublin, composed of Roman Catholics as well as Protestants, and from that seminary schoolmasters had been sent to various parts of Ireland. Even in the course of the present session no less a sum than 9,000 l. had been voted for the maintenance of schools in Ireland.
Why had the noble duke omitted to state to their lordships, that under the superintendance of the united parliament which had been represented as paying no regard to the interests of Ireland, no less than six harbours had been made in Ireland, viz. Dunleary now called Kingstown, a most magnificent work, and calculated to make Dublin an excellent harbour; Howth, Araglass, Donoughadee, and two others. In these works above one million of money had been expended [hear, hear!]. After what had fallen from the noble duke, and the complaints of want of attention to the welfare of Ireland, their lordships would hear with surprise that within the last year a sum of 250,000 l. had been voted for public works in Ireland, 500,000 l. had been advanced for new roads, 100,000 l. for the employment of the poor, 500,000 l. for the support of commercial credit, and 200,000 l. for occasional exigencies. All these things had been done for the improvement and the benefit of Ireland; and, if their lordships were to give credit to the statements of the noble lord opposite, done by a parliament not feeling any paternal regard for that country. But he had by no means stated all that had been done for Ireland. Their lordships knew that 500,000 l. was granted for improving the internal navigation of Ireland, that 150,000 l. had been expended upon the grand canal, and 198,000 l. upon the royal canal. Did these grants, he begged to ask their lordships justify the assertion

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which had been so often made there and elsewhere, that since the Union Ireland had never enjoyed the blessing of a paternal government? But the united parliament had not stopped even here. To the Roman Catholic Seminary no less a sum than 201,075 l. had been granted; and, as it was considered an important point by parliament to encourage the residence of the clergy upon their livings, so as to produce a constant intercourse between the clergyman and his parishioners, no less than 614,000 l. had been voted, in aid of the Board of First Fruits, for the building of churches and glebe houses, and that board had been by these means enabled by gifts to build 202 churches, by loans 312 churches, by loans and gifts 457 glebe houses, and by loans and gifts to improve 153 glebes. He felt it due to the Board of First Fruits to say, that every shilling of the funds entrusted to their care had been expended with the strictest regard to economy, and with the most impartial and judicious attention to the interests of the country.
In making these statements, he begged not to be understood as claiming for the present administration, or for the present parliament, exclusively, the praise of having directed their attention to promote the welfare of Ireland. He sincerely believed that all the parliaments, and all the administrations, since the Union, had been actuated by the same feeling towards that country. He was ready to admit, that the noble lords opposite to him were entitled to their share of that praise when they were in power. They, however, only gave two boons to Ireland. The one, and a great boon he allowed it to be, was, the Insurrection Act ["no, no!" from the Opposition benches!]. All that he could say was, that, only a few weeks ago, the learned gentleman who was attorney-general for Ireland when the noble lords opposite were in office, had told him that he had drawn the bill. It was a measure winch certainly ought not to be resorted to except in the last necessity. But it must never be forgotten, that it was the duty of government to protect loyal subjects; a conviction which was no doubt impressed on the government of that day; and, in his opinion, they had done right. That was their first boon. The second boon was, opening the ports, and enabling Ireland to send corn to this country. For that, also, they deserved the gratitude of that country.
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One of the most striking features of the conduct of his majesty's present government was, that they not only had brought in measures themselves which they thought serviceable to Ireland, but had adopted the hints of others. For instance, they had adopted sir John Newport's bill to regulate courts of Justice. That was a great boon to Ireland. It proved that parliament were alive to the interests of Ireland, and that government not only did what they could to promote those interests, but did not disdain to avail themselves of the efforts of others. Then, there was the commission to in quire into the collection of the revenue in Ireland, from which such able and excellent reports had proceeded. Was it nothing to institute such a committee? Was it nothing for ministers, to follow them through all their reports, and to cut down the abuses to which they pointed out, to a degree that must prove a permanent advantage to the country. At the same time, it ought not to be forgotten, that ministers, by acting as they had done upon these reports, had diminished the patronage of the Crown in Ireland to a very great extent. But they felt that that was not for a moment to be put in competition with the, interests of the country.
Under these circumstances, if the House were to agree to the noble duke's motion, they would in substance, pass a vote of censure upon every administration that had existed since the Union. There was one other subject to which he had not yet adverted, and that was, Catholic Emancipation. He confessed, that at one time, he very much doubted the expediency or the wisdom of acceding to that measure; but, upon a more full consideration of the subject, he had changed his opinion, and he now sincerely wished to see it passed. But he was, at the same time, fully convinced that the measure was at the present moment impracticable. Although he was favourable to the measure, he was equally convinced, that it was not one which ought to be pressed at any time, and under any time, and under any circumstances. Were not the noble lords opposite to him convinced, that the success of that measure must depend upon circumstances which did not exist at, this moment? Did not the noble lords opposite, when they were in administration, think the time unfavourable to Catholic Emancipation? Their own acts proved that

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they did. They did not then propose what they now consider to be absolutely indispensable; namely, unqualified emancipation. Had the noble lords opposite proposed a solitary measure for the benefit of Ireland? If they had, government would instantly have attended to it. The subject of Tithes in Ireland was one which every administration had looked at without much good effect. Two bills, one for the commutation, the other for the composition of tithes, were now in progress in the other House. This was a subject of great difficulty. He confessed his astonishment, however, at what had fallen from a noble lord opposite who had addressed the bench of bishops on the subject. He (lord M.) was of opinion, that tithes were a description of property which ought to be as much respected as any other. The noble lord ought also to recollect, that half the tithes of Ireland were in the hands of lay impropriators. One measure could not be adopted towards the church, and another towards the laity. It was also a fact of which the noble lord was perhaps not aware, that the lay impropriators invariably exacted from the people more than the clergy did. Of this, however, he (lord M.) was convinced, that if the proposed bill should not prove satisfactory, the subject was one which his noble relation, as long as he held the situation which he at present occupied, would never lose sight of. But, was it common justice to cast a slur on the government of Ireland, before the measures which they had brought forward were fairly tried? Did not the despatches on their lordships' table state, that his noble relative entertained the greatest hopes from the measures on trial; from the improvement in the magistracy; from the change in the county-courts; and, above all, from the arrangement in the distillery laws, by which it was expected that an end would be put to the infernal evils resulting from illicit distillation? His noble relative had said in those despatches, that when the various measures which he enumerated were at work, he hoped he should, get at the root of the evil, and be enabled to afford protection to loyal and peaceable subjects. But, it was impossible that the effect of any laws, however good, could be immediately manifest. For all, these reasons, he should certainly feel it his duty to support the previous question.
Lord Hollandasked, whether this then,
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was really the case on which the noble lords opposite meant to rest their justification for rejecting the motion of the noble duke before, him—that motion which had been supported so ably and so powerfully by many noble lords connected with the kingdom of Ireland? Was it possible, on such grounds, for the noble lords opposite to require their lordships' to reject that proposition? Why, the noble lord who had spoken second in this debate, and the noble lord who had just sat down, had, throughout the whole of their arguments, rested on grounds completely inconsistent with those which bad been laid down last session by the noble earl at the head of the Treasury. The whole of their argument came to this—that, because great boons had been granted to Ireland, it was quite unnecessary for their lordships to investigate the causes of the recurrence of those disturbances and disorders which now agitated that country. Did they mean to deny the existence of those disturbances. They could not deny it; for the noble earl opposite bad admitted the fact last session, and had also stated the causes of those disturbances. The question lay within a very narrow compass, although it was connected with many serious and interesting considerations. It was simply this—whether it was preferable to have a parliamentary pledge, or the pledge of the government, that the causes of those disturbances should be inquired into? He must say, that the whole tenour of the speech of the noble lord who had just sat down, was little complimentary to the people of that country with which he had been so long connected. The noble lord did not deny that they were in a state almost amounting to rebellion; but he observed, that they had been in the habit of receiving great boons from this country, for a long period of time; and then the noble lord had left the House to imagine "what an ungrateful people those Irish must be." There appeared to be a state of discontent and dissatisfaction all through Ireland, notwithstanding the many boons which had been so much vaunted. The noble lord had spoken of the boon of education—he had enumerated the harbours, the roads, and the various public works, which were forming; and the conclusion was, what ungrateful persons these Irish must be, not to conduct themselves better, after such large sums money had been voted for their employ-

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ment—after so many important boons had been granted to them.
The noble lord had also thought fit to allude to the former conduct of several noble lords in that House. But it was not what measure this noble lord had supported, or what enactments that noble lord had caused to be passed, which could decide the question of the present state of Ireland. The noble lords opposite had, for many years, been in the habit of haranguing that House on the necessity of destroying the immense power of France. They had been constantly describing the French government as the most horrible tyranny that ever deserved the execration of mankind. And yet, if Napoleon Buonaparte were arraigned, might he not say—"Is there a part of Europe I have not improved? Look at the roads I have constructed—behold the palaces I have built—mark the sums of money I have laid out—and, above all, contemplate the improvement I have effected amongst those who are living under my dominion!" [Hear, hear!] The noble lord had left the last point untouched. He had said nothing about the improvement of the people of Ireland. And truly, it would have been very strange if he had! He had made an ostentatious display of the generosity and benevolence of government and of parliament; but he had been silent as to the good effect which had been produced on the state of the people of Ireland. He had pointed out the grievance and its cause; but he had not shown that any effectual mode had been adopted for removing it. The noble lord had referred to the measures taken by a former administration. This had been the practice with noble lords opposite for some years. Let what would happen, their constant observation was—"Oh! you did the same!" This was a most unparliamentary mode of proceeding; and, at this distance of time, he disdained to answer it. He would only hint, that such a line of argument was quite stale. It was hunting on a very stale scent, to refer to that which had occurred seventeen years ago. If noble lords opposite wished to indulge in that sort of observation, they ought, occasionally, to give up the situation they now held to his (lord H.'s) friends; and then they would have new grounds to argue upon, instead of constantly re-burring to those that were wholly and entirely Worn out [a laugh]. The noble
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lord had said, "One of the boon you granted to Ireland was the opening "of the corn-trade." He certainly thought that that concession was in the nature of a boon—not from the administration, although sir J. Newport had great merit for the part he had taken in that transaction; but he viewed it as a boon from the people of England to the people of Ireland. It was a great boon—a boon of which he approved; although he admitted that it was inconsistent with the true principles of commerce; but he thought it was right, at that time, to sacrifice that consideration for the benefit: of the sister country. Though, in a commercial point of view, and with reference to the principles of political economy, the proceeding might not be correct, still he approved of that boon, under the peculiar circumstances of the country. The noble lord, using a forced figure of rhetoric, said, "Another of your boons was the Insurrection Bill. I know that such am such measures were under consideration I know officially, that such and such plans were suggested by the government in England and in Ireland." The noble lord was, however, mistaken; and he would find that he was, if he inquired of his noble friends near him. The truth was, that bill had been previously prepared: it was true, that fie (lord H.) had accidentally read it: it was also true that he, for one, should have protested against the measure, and he intended so to have done; but circumstances occasioned him to act in a manner of which he had ever since repented. He had, on that occasion, given almost the only vote he ever regretted. It was wrung from him by circumstances; and he was unable to state the reasons why, in his opinion, the measure should not pass. But the noble lord said, that a thing pared was the same as a boon given "You gave Ireland," he observed, "nothing else save what I have stated; but you tried to do something for the Catholics." Certainly, the measure of emancipation had a much greater right to be carried than the Insurrection Act; and he and his noble friends gave a pretty strong proof of their sincerity with respect to that matter; for they had resigned—a course of proceeding which he believed was entirely out of the noble lord s contemplation [a laugh]. The noble lord said, "You must consider it quite imbarpracticable to relieve the Caihblics—no-

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thing of that sort can be done." Nay, he said more, "I, on principle, defend Catholic Emancipation," observed the noble lord, "but this is not the time for if I have been for a long period friendly to it, but this is not a principle which a man should, at all times, bring forward, I came over to the side of Catholic Emancipation, because I thought the; time was approaching when it ought to be carried; but, the period having arrived, I am willing to hold a place in a cabinet, in which that subject must not be mentioned—which will not make it a cabinet measure—which will not support it with all the weight of government, although I know it is impossible it can be carried, until it is made a cabinet measure!" [Hear.] The noble secretary of state, who spoke second in the debate, had exclaimed—"What! do you mean to be guilty of the horrible injustice of excluding a man from office on account of his opinions?" And this he said in the very face of the laws which excluded five or six millions of people, one-fourth of the whole community, from holding great offices, and from sitting in parliament [Hear]. Now, with respect to the boon of education, what had been done? He would ask, what reference had those points to the subject? How did they bear on the question immediately before the House? It was said that much had been effected with regard to the education of the poorer classes: and he was sorry he did not see a noble and learned lord (Redesdale) in his place, who was one of the great advocates for it, from whom, perhaps, they might have received some useful information.
The noble lord then proceeded to observe, that the motion before the House did not state that parliament had done nothing, or that no efforts had been made to assist the people of Ireland, or that the legislature had shrunk from its bounden duty. It only declared, that the scenes which were new passing in Ireland, proved that there was something exceedingly wrong in the state of that country, and it called on parliament to institute a solemn inquiry into the case. Would noble lords say that there was nothing wrong in the state of Ireland? They could not. And when they admitted the fact, could any man assert, that an inquiry should not be set on foot, to put an end, if possible, to the evil? The question then was, "Is it proper to have
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a pledge of parliamentary inquiry?" and, "is this the proper time for inquiry?" No person could vote for the amendment, except on one of three principles. Either he must think that there is no necessity for an inquiry into the state of Ireland at all; or he must suppose that he can leave the inquiry safely to the executive government; or he must be of opinion, that though it is proper to inquire into the subject, this is not the fit time for such inquiry. As to leaving the inquiry to the executive government, he might be allowed to observe, that many noble lords, and one in particular, who stated his motives for so leaving it, pursued that coarse last year. At that time, he (lord H.) refused to confide the inquiry to government on account of the manner in which that government was composed; but he must say, looking to their conduct, and to the language, they had held since, he was now more adverse than he was their to placing any such confidence in ministers. When, on a former occasion, a noble friend near him had introduced a resolution similar to the present, the noble earl at the head of the Treasury had said, "God forbid I should consider these coercive bills, necessary as they are in consequence of the present state of Ireland, as the means that are solely to be depended on for tranquillizing that country." He well recollected the metaphorical expression of the noble earl on that occasion. "No," said he, "we must probe this business to the bottom. The causes of this state of things do not lie on the surface. The evils of Ireland lie deep in the frame of society. These are merely temporary measures. God forbid they should be anything more! It is, however, necessary, that we should possess the means of putting down disturbances; and that we should devise some remedy for these evils, the roots of which he so deep." Who would not think, when the noble earl had procured the Insurrection Act, that he would immediately have set about digging and delving, to find out that precious jewel which was to cure all the evils which afflicted Ireland? But he did no such thing. He confined himself to the surface; he plucked his rue and dandelion; and. then he said, "Smell to this wonder working flower, it is a certain cure for all the evils of: which Ireland complains." The noble lord who spoke last had told them, that a bill, which would be most beneficial to Ireland, would

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shortly be laid before their lordships. For his own part, he did not believe it would be quite so beneficial as the noble lord supposed. He, as an older member of that House, would tell the noble lord, that the bill to which he had alluded, especially if it were good for any thing, was not likely to go to the people of Ireland as an act of parliament this session. He had observed uniformly, that, in proportion as the number of individuals who wished to obtain any object through the medium of parliament was great, additional difficulties were thrown in the way of their success. The practice reminded him of a story in ancient fable. It was very commonly said,—"Stop, this is a most important subject—we must weave a parliamentary web, which can be undone at pleasure." And, when the suitors imagined they were on the point of enjoying the object which they had so long and so strenuously pursued, committees and reports were interposed as barriers to their success. Then at the end of theses on, came the noble and learned Penelope, who presided over the House, and with the assistance of his or her handmaidens, unravelled the web, which it had taken the whole session to weave [a laugh].
The noble lord then proceeded to observe, that he believed the views of the government of Ireland, so far as the noble personage at the head of that government was, concerned, were statesmanlike and wise. He believed there was a sincere desire in that quarter to carry into effect the measures which had been referred to. He, however, was convinced by experience, that hitherto the noble personage of whom he spoke, had found it impossible to act as he wished. He knew, the painful situation in which that individual was placed; and perhaps some persons would blame him for having subjected himself to, the inconvenience which he now experienced. An illustrious duke (Wellington) who stood in the same degree of relationship to that noble personage as the noble lord who spoke last did, had used an expression which precisely met the situation of the noble marquis now at the head of the Irish government. Soon after the Spanish papers were laid on the table, he (lord H.) met a noble friend, whom he had not seen for some years. Though a man of considerable acuteness, he was not much in the habit diplomatic diplomatic papers, and
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he said, "You, in the course of your parliamentary duty, find it necessary famine papers of this sort—pray what is the meaning of the phrase I find,—a false position? I suppose it is a metaphor taken from the art in which the noble writer is so eminent. It is some sort of situation in a campaign." I (observed lord H.) answered, that it was a sort of jargon bandied about between diplomatists and ministers, but that I really did not understand what it meant. "O," said my friend, "if it is so commonly used, you must attach some meaning to it." "Yes," I observed, "it is understood to be a post, in which a man depends more on his enemies than his friends." "God bless me!" rejoined my friend, "that is precisely his brother's case; there is a sort of fraternal sympathy between them." [a laugh.] Such was really the situation of the marquis of Wellesiey. He had placed himself in a situation in which he was surrounded by enemies and from which he could not extricate, himself. If this were so, was it not an additional reason for parliament to take the inquiry into its own hands? The noble lord opposite admitted that the evils were deeply implanted in the state of society in Ireland; and yet, instead of instituting; an efficient inquiry, they were constantly called upon to renew laws which were contrary to the spirit of the constitution, and abhorrent to the nature of any man who justly prized the value of freedom. The resolution now before the House embraced these points—first, that great disturbances had taken place in Ireland, the inference from which was, that there was something in the state of that country which called for inquiry; and then the proposition, that coercive measures, without any mixture of conciliation, could produce no benefit. Certainly, when men were described as receiving extraordinary boons, and nevertheless refusing to act moderately and peaceably, it might safely be predicated, that the causes of their discontent lay deep indeed. The true cure for the evil had been well describe by the noble lord who spoke third in the debate, when he conjured the House to rule Ireland by kindness, and not by severity. It was not by extending the petty sessions, it was not by severity buildings, it was not by expending large sums of money on the building of churches, which their religion prevented them from which attending, that a people could be taught

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to love and respect their government. It was not by measures of such a nature that long, painful, and disgusting series of injury, obloquy, and oppression, could be obliterated from the minds of a high-spirited, warm-hearted, and noble minded people. It was only by approaching them in the true spirit of peace and conciliation, that they could be governed; and he would say, that no government since, the Union (and he included the government of 1806) had approached them in that spirit. He would not, as a member of that House, condescend to explain the circumstances which prevented the government of 1806 from fully acting on that principle, of which, however, they never lost sight. He would merely say, that, including the government of 1806, no government, since the Union, had had both the power and the will to do just on to the people of Ireland—to treat them with that degree of kindness and old English good-humour with which the government of this country always treated the people of this country, and which should constantly characterise the measures of the British parliament. A noble and learned lord (Redesdale) whom he did not see in his place, although he differed in opinion from the humble individual who now addressed their lordships, yet never stated his sentiments on this subject without giving such information on the general state of Ireland, as convinced all his hearers of the necessity of some alteration. That noble and learned lord had described the evil in Ireland to be this, "That there was one law for the rich, and another for the poor, and both were equally ill executed." Could any noble lord, after such a statement, sit down and say, "Let us leave that country as it is? When the noble lord at the head of the Treasury declared, that the evil should be probed to the bottom, did he suppose his pledge would be redeemed, if the tithe and the distillery bill were passed? It was not, however, for the House to look to the professed views of the noble lord, as stated last year, nor to mark the inconsistencies by which his Conduct had been distinguished. No: it was the duty of their lordships, as statesmen, to consider what was the situation of Ireland, of Great Britian, of the world at large, at this time. The introduction of first principles into a debate was very often tiresome, and where unnecessary might be dangerous. But, it was proper
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to have some opportunity of looking to that system which, for twenty years, had prevailed with respect to Ireland. During that period they had had full power over the people of that country. What were the rights of the people of Ireland, or what were the privileges they were entitled to claim, he would not examine. He would only observe, that government was established for the good of the public. The government belonged to the public, not the public to the government. A poet had said, but his lordship thought erroneously,
"What'er is best administered is best."
This was a maxim of which he did not approve; but whether it were well-founded or no, it did not apply to Ireland. Where a government excluded a large portion of the inhabitants from their fair share of the power, no minister could rest his justification upon an assertion that the machine worked well. Let any main judge of the government of Ireland by its fruits. Could it be said, "The people are contented; why, then, would you disturb them with vain theories and abstract principles?" When the administration of justice was contrary to all principle it was absurd to talk of the absentee land lords, and to ascribe to them the evils' which existed in Ireland. Their origin might be traced to that state of things which was the confirmation of the maxim that there could be no happiness for the body of the people, no security of their rights, no enjoyment of any condition of society, unless where the people were admitted to that fair share of political power to which all men were entitled. It was very true, he could not trace what direct connexion there was between the exclusion of the Catholics and the enormous endowments of the church in Ireland; but these two phænomena presented such an anomaly, as never had before existed in the history of mankind, and never had any people been plunged into such abject calamity as the people of Ireland.
He thought he might at least say, that he had made out what the lawyers would call a prima facie case, to show the necessity of inquiry. He supposed that one would now take up that stele maxim of divine right, which, though it had been repudiated by the common sense of the people, seemed, however, to find its way into cabinets. When the tithe come before their lordships he should sate his opinion, upon it with perfect

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frankness, and with as much fairness to all the parties concerned as he could command. Much had been heard of the consequences of foreign interference with Ireland. No man, he believed, on that or on the other side of the House could doubt that power placed in the hands of the Bourbon government would not be at the least as dangerous to Ireland as that which prevailed during the plenitude of Napoleon's authority. He did not mean to say that the power of the Bourbons was equal to that possessed by Napoleon; but their enmity to the Protestant government of this country was far more deeply rooted. He did not speak on this subject without authority; and he repeated, that the Bourbon government, reigning, as they affected to reign, by divine right, supported by an army of the faith, and aided by the machinations of missionaries and Jesuits, was far more dangerous to the security of this country and of Ireland than, all that Napoleon could ever have effected. Perhaps the noble earl opposite would say, that this was a reason against the measures which he (lord H.) was advocating. But, he would say, that if Ireland could not be governed by mildness, and by engaging the affections of the people, he was sure it never could, and he hoped it never might be governed, by any other means. For these reasons he recommended their lordships, in the most earnest manner to institute the inquiry. And, still more necessary did it become, seeing that their lordships would ere long be called upon to enact that hideous statute—he could not call it a law, for it was a suspension of all law—which surpassed in cruelty all that had ever been devised, and which, as an Englishman, he could not think, of without disgust.
He would say one word to the noble lord who spoke last. That noble lord had talked of the favours which had been conferred by the government on Ireland. While he denied the propriety, he cautioned the House against the adoption of any such language. It had been used to the Americans; it had always been found dangerous, and it was improper; because it assumed, that what a government did for the people of a country could be a boon and a kindness. He knew of none which could be bestowed by a legislature upon a people. It was the duty of a legislature to consider and adopt whatever measures could tend to the welfare, the tranquillity, the liberty, and the enjoy-
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ment of the subject. It was, to use the language of contumely and insult when persons of one religion should tell those of another, that while they discharged only their duty they were extending to them a favour and a boon.
The Earl of Limericksaid, that although an opinion was elsewhere entertained, that the disorders in Ireland were caused by religious differences, he was convinced of the fallacy of that opinion. He would not pay so bad a compliment to the upper classes of Irish Catholics as to suppose that they countenanced such outrages. He was equally ready to acquit the priesthood; and he behaved that the promoters, as well as the actors, in the disorders, were altogether confined to the lower, orders of the people, He had had interviews with two captain Rocks; for their lordships must know that there were as many captain Rocks as there were bands of rioters, and these persons had told him what their object was. These men avowed to him, with perfect tranquillity, that their first wish was, to drive away, the heretics, and to take their property. This was the aim they, had in view, and until they had accomplished it, they assured him they would never be quiet. He was no advocate for severe laws; but when a whole province was given up to fire and sword, when the ordinary administration of the laws was not sufficient for the security of the peaceful inhabitants, he could not feel any reluctance in adopting strong measures. He had assisted, on a former occasion, in carrying into execution the measure to which he alluded. He had done so because he thought it necessary. It was enforced under the inspection of persons of high judicial authority, and no sentence had been passed which was not merited, nor upon any, one whose guilt had not been clearly proved. If the assertion was true, that, in Ireland there was one law for the rich and, another for the poor, he protested he, was ignorant of it. Without meaning to flatter the noble lords opposite he, must confess that they had made every exertion in their power for the restoration of tranquillity. He had been originally all advocate for the catholic institution at Maynooth; but recent experience had convinced him, that it was productive of much harm, and he now thought, that Catholics, by being educated, abroad would return not only better Catholics but better subjects. After some remarks

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upon the woollen manufactures of Ireland, land, the encouragement of which would, he thought, do more towards the restoration of tranquillity than any other measure, his lordship, speaking of the lord-lieutenant, expressed his high opinion of his intelligence and ability; but he thought that the simpler the government of Ireland could be made the better. Courts were no where schools of morality; and. no where were they less so than in Ireland. He would not have the court of Ireland remain a school for Tyro-statesmen, to learn their trade in, but an institution for the just administration of the laws. He should not vote for the resolutions; but would rely that, as the ministers had already done much, they would do still more towards the amelioration of Ireland.
Lord King, said, that their lordships had heard great credit taken for remedying evils in Ireland, the existence of which, until the remedial measures were brought forward, had always been denied. The ministers, too, had given up taxes in Ireland. And why? Because they could no longer collect them. He wished those who, exposed inquiry; would read the Insurrection Act—an act which seemed more suited to a slave island and a slave population, than to the inhabitants of a free country. His majesty's ministers reminded him of a certain clergyman, not the most exemplary in his practice, who had had, this is the cursedest parish that God ever put breath into. I have been preaching to them for five and twenty year, and they are as bad as they were before." His majesty's ministers, in like manner, with their parish of six million of souls, had been holding forth to them on the necessity of tranquillity; yet, strange to say, this parish, more irritated by acts than tranquillized by words, was as turbulent as ever it had been. Ireland was certainly a country sui generis. With a church as highly endowed as any in Christendom, it was nevertheless as wretched as any country in the world. Those who had any thing to do with its government should hide their heads for shame, at the mention of such a disgrace to the civilized world.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that after all they had heard last year in that House and so other places; after the declaration of the noble earl opposite, that if there could not be found a remedy immediately, for what was then called, and
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now more emphatically might be called, the melancholy state of Ireland, still no time should be lost in probing it to the bottom—he had come down with great anxiety, to hear whether it was the result of deliberate reflection en the part of his majesty's ministers, that Ireland should continue in its present state; or whether they expected, from the measures in progress in the other House, relief for Ire* land, from a state of peril more alarming than any that had been witnessed since the rebellion of 1798. The noble Secretary of State had that night done him the honour to ascribe to him the merit of suggesting certain measures that had been carried to a certain extent; and the noble I master of the Mint, who was; afraid he should be too much intoxicated with this commendation, and actuated by a laud able desire to gather up every crumb of praise for a ministry that had done so little and demanded so much, had observed, that though none of these measures were then before parliament they had all an existence in his mind, and would, after six years of silence and power, have been immediately brought forward [a laugh]. He should not quarrel with the noble baron as to the originality of his ideas, but whether such a mea sure originated with his friend sir J Newport (whom, whenever Ireland, was mentioned, he was proud to, call his friend), or with whom else soever he should observe, that what he complained of was, not that beneficial measures were not suggested, but that there was not that vigorous and determined tone was the government, which was necessary to carry measures opposed by prejudice, by local interests, and by the inveterate habits of the country—obstacles, only to be over come by an unbending course, and unity of purpose in the servants of the Crown. With respect to the act for the free importation of corn, so far from being I considered as an act of favour, it ought on lock to be viewed as an act of bare justice; for to what could be more unjust, than that England should expect Ireland to consume the various articles of her manufacture, while she was not obliged to receives on equal terms the natural produce of that country, on the sale and consumption of which a large portion of her inhabitants depended for subsistence?—On the subject of the state of the roads, and the Grand Jury Presentments be could only say, that a great benefit, would be

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likely, to arise from the bill which had been lately introduced. Did the noble lords believe that these things were in such a state of purity as to exempt Ireland from the evils which they had formerly inflicted on her? If the noble Secretary of State believed so, his belief must be founded on ignorance of the reports which had been furnished by his own engineers, and which he himself had laid before the House. Indeed, it was impossible that he could hold such an opinion, if he had read the Reports of those persons who had been employed by the marquis Wellesley; for they stated, that the system of robbery in Ireland was now carried to a greater extent than ever. There was another subject on which ministers had also claimed much credit, and with equal reason; namely, the expenditure of a large sum of money in granting out leases of lands to public bodies, for the purposes of cultivation and appropriation to the interest and benefit of public schools. But, it could not be said that this expenditure had been carried on with a spirit of impartiality. The Catholic deserved assistance as much as the Protestant, and required it more; and yet he had not been so assisted; no grants had been made to schools which were under the direction of Catholic Priests. This might be met by saying, that it was against the policy of the government to encourage the increase of catholic scholars; but there was no principle on which the Catholics should remain uneducated; for, if education did not change their opinion as to their religion, it would, at least, make them better subjects. The noble baron had alluded to reports on this subject. It had been suggested, that public schools should be kept by the parochial clergy, and the noble baron had stated it as his opinion, that two and a half per cent should be deducted from the general income of the clergy for that purpose. This proposition had not been attended to, delays had been suffered to intervene, and time had elapsed without any measures being taken. But, how different was the conduct of government when any particular proposition of their own was to be carried. When any of their officers recommended strong measures, their recommendation was immediately carried into effect, statements were laid before the House, bills were hurried through, parliament was called on to suspend the Constitution—
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and that call was immediately to be obeyed. He was sorry that these measures, which were so evidently for the benefit of the people, were not treated somewhat in the same manner. He regretted that no vigour, no despatch, no powerful assistance, was afforded to carry them into effect.—The noble marquis apologized for the time he had occupied on this subject, and he confessed that, much as he valued the utility of good public roads; much as he valued the benefit of public education; and much as he hated and condemned those atrocious laws whose existence now tended so strongly to demoralize the people, still he could not say that the adoption of measures for the two first, and the repeal of the last would of themselves be sufficient to root out the evils under which Ireland suffered. It had been stated, that without any effort by the parliament and government, a remedy might be found for the calamities under which Ireland laboured; but this statement came from persons who looked to the effect, and not to the cause. They said, if the landlords were more considerate, if the peasantry were more industrious, and if the gentry would reside more upon their estates, all would be well. But he would ask, were not all these the legitimate consequences of the mismanagement of the country? Were they peculiar to Ireland Did they come in the pure air that blew over it, or did they Spring out of its fertile soil? No. They might all be traced to natural causes. If the whole history of the country could be effaced, it would not require the acute discernment of a Montesquieu, nor the profound genius of a Bacon, to discover, upon looking only at the physiognomy of the country, that bad management, for the last country had reduced it to a condition which excited the compassion of this, and something like the contempt of every other, country of Europe. To no common remedy, then, must we look for the extinction of evils of so great magnitude. Alluding to the administration of justice in Ireland, the noble marquis said, that although he would be the last man to impute any thing like partiality to the judges or the great law officers, yet it must be admitted that from the conduct of the subordinate branches of the legal administration, an opinion prevailed in Ireland, that the law was of friendly to the people, and that they could not look to it for protection.

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This notion existed, perhaps, to a greater, degree than, the truth warranted. Noble lords were not aware to what extent the system of exclusion tended to exasperate the people. Its operation was to exclude six-sevenths of the people of Ireland from that to which the Statute-book said they were, entitled. The number of offices to which Catholics, were eligible was 2,540. What proportion did their lordships suppose was held by Catholics—106. Until the power which wrought tins effect was destroyed, it was in vain to look for loyalty and attachment. Tranquillity might be obtained; but nothing more he did not mean to blame the lord-lieutenant. The blame belonged to subordinate agents, whom no lord-lieutenant could control; and least of all a lord-lieutenant not supported by the government at home. One of the most curious results which had come out upon a recent, inquiry was, that upon some unimportant occasion Catholics were permuted to serve upon a grand jury; but upon a grand in which: their rights, and the voting of public money vas concerned. From 1798 to the present time, if there was one principle more than another which prevailed among the lower orders in Ireland, it was that they considered oaths taken for private purposes more binding than those administered in courts of justice. But, on a recent occasion, before a tribunal in trusted with the highest inquisitorial functions, a person of a certain importance, and, as he must suppose, well educated, had despised the authority of that tribunal, and had preferred, at all risks, to retain the oath he had taken for the purposes of a faction, to paying the obedience due to the authority by which he was questioned. He knew nothing more unfortunate for a country than the erroneous opinion which prevailed on this subject; and he could not but regret, that the principle of giving no party a triumph, was suffered to be turned to purposes, most injurious to the interests of the country There was one triumph which ought always to be given—it was that of the laws; and the government which could not secure this, was unfit to govern any country, least of all to restore tranquillity to such a country as Ireland.—Here he should have concluded, but for the mention which had been made of the measure for the commutation of tithes, a measure to which he looked up for the greatest relief to Ireland. The proposed
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avoiding of all the evils of collection, would be so great a benefit, that not a peasant would look at it but with the greatest satisfaction. He could not, however, believe that lord Wellesley could have sent, over a bill, the effect of which might be to increase the burthens already weighing upon the landholders of Ireland. When; he stated, that the average price of the tithes was taken at 73 s. for the quarter of corn, a price higher than it, had been for years, he thought the bill must have undergone alterations since it left Ireland. As to all the partial improvements which had been spoken of by, noble lords, he would ask them whether, in the present temper of the people of that country, those improvements had been of the slightest practical good. In conclusion, he declared that he would support the motion in the hope of producing some good effect.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, it was impossible for him to avoid stating, in a few words, the grounds on which he should object to the motion of the noble duke; particularly as he had been so pointedly alluded to in the course pf the debate. The motion was not a motion for inquiry merely. It commenced by expressing a regret, in which every one must agree, at, the strong measures which were rendered necessary for the safety of Ireland; but it also expressed the noble duke's sentiments as to what the government of Ireland had been. He would admit, that every noble lord who thought there had been a systematic defect in the government of that country, would be fully warranted in voting for the motion of the noble duke. But he should deny the position of the noble duke. He would admit that evils existed. He did not deny the expediency of seeking for some remedy; but he denied the cause to which those evils were attributed, and he could not accede to all the measures proposed for their relief. It had been truly said that the whole of the late reign had been one succession of acts of beneficence. That much had been, done for Ireland, and that she was now reaping the benefit of it, no man in his senses could deny. It had been said, that all which had been done was a mere act of justice. He acknowledged that whatever benefits a government conferred on a country, could only be termed acts pf justice; but he would say that with respect to many pf those; acts that that, had been done for Ireland, which would

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not have been for England. He was therefore justified in saying, that since the Union they had been in the constant habit of legislating for the benefit of Ireland. Allusion had been made to the pledge that was given last year by his majesty's government; but, could any man be so absurd as to suppose that the measures which he had then spoken of could operate instantaneously as by magic? Certainly, time was essential to their full and perfect operation. The attention of the government: but been anxiously directed, however, to every practicable correction of those evils, and the measures which had either been carried into effect, or were now in progress, embraced four great points—a new system of police, a reform of the magistracy, and of the general administration of justice, the commutation of tithes, and a new system for the distilleries. All these objects had been in a great degree matured by the government. The police system had been carried into effect in several counties in Ireland, and was in progress in others. The reform of the magistracy had commenced, and was in course of progress; and the other two measures had been submitted to the consideration of parliament. The system for the composition of tithes had been characterised as imperfect; but it was necessary to establish the principle before the details could be perfected. The question of tithes involved difficulties in the details, which could only be reconciled by the union of all parties in the principles of justice. A portion of the clergy might be opposed to the principle of the measure, but he believed that the great body of the parochial clergy were disposed to second the efforts of the government. The pledge of the government had been fulfilled in the introduction of the measures to which he had alluded. With respect to the participation of the Roman Catholics of Ireland in those rights and privilege's to which they were by law entitled, the fullest and most distinct instructions had been given by the government of this country to the authorities in Ireland, that they should be equally and impartially admitted to those rights and privileges. He believed that the offices to which they were legally admissible, were fairly distributed among the Catholics of Ireland. In several of the revenue boards, Roman Catholics were admitted; and in one of them a Roman Catholic gentleman was deputy chairman of the board. He mentioned
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this fact to show that the government not act upon any principle of exclusion. There might, indeed, be an apparent inequality in the distribution of offices among Catholics and Protestants, but when it was considered, that forty-nine, fiftieths of the property of Ireland were in the hands of Protestants, and when the inferior education of the Catholics was taken into consideration, that which at first appeared to be an inequality, would be found to be no inequality at all Catholics and Protestants were admitted for the most part, indifferently, to the privilege of sitting on grand juries; and the duties of the magistracy were discharged by Catholics and Protestants on the same bench. He believed, most conscientiously, that the Catholics of Ireland were impartially admitted to all the benefits which they were legally capable of enjoying. The noble marquis had not himself thrown out a single suggestion with a view to Improving the state of Ireland, except perhaps one observation as to the expediency of lowering the duties on law proceedings With respect to the administration of justice, no instance of the intentional perversion of justice had been brought forward; still less any instance, of such perversion in which the government could be charged with concurring. He denied that there was any combination in Ireland against the government or the institutions of the country. Amidst all the disturbances which had taken place in Limerick last year, he had good authority for saying, that if the king had appeared in Limerick at that time, he would have been received with as much enthusiasm as he had been in Dublin. It was not a combination against the government, but against property in general, whether in the hands of Protestants or Catholics and he believed, that the exasperation of the people of Ireland against Catholic proprietors was, in many instances, even greater than against Protestant proprietors. In Connaught, the disturbances had arisen from the unwillingness of the people, to pay dues to their own priests, and, in many other parts of Ireland, the feeling was as strong against their own priests as against the Protestant clergy. Some of the calamities of Ireland were, undoubtedly attributable to the great extent to which absenteeship was carried—an evil which it must be admitted had been in creased—Union. But while he was ready to admit that this, and perhaps some other

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inconveniences had arisen from the Union, he was satisfied that Ireland had, upon the whole, derived great benefit from that measure. The great object, in which all parties ought to unite, should be, to infuse into Ireland English notions and English feelings, to approximate a better feeling between the higher and the lower orders; for he must repeat, that the evil arose from a disunion between the rich and the poor, and not from a disunion between the governor, and the governed. That disunion had, indeed, produced greater evils than the most tyrannical government could have inflicted—evils which could only be mitigated by promoting a better feeling between the two classes of society. The generality of the noble duke's motion defeated itself with regard to any practical purpose, and the whole debate had, in fact, resolved itself into a discussion of the question of the few remaining restrictions on the Roman Catholics of Ireland. The principle upon which the present lord-lieutenant had acted, in the government of Ireland, had been ludicrously termed a trimming principle; but he (lord L.) maintained that to be the only just principle of government, which held the balance between the Catholic and the Protestant, and which admitted both to an equal participation in those privileges to which they were legally entitled.
The Bishop of Kildaredefended the parochial incumbents of Ireland from some aspersions which had been cast on them, and maintained that they had uniformly discharged their duty in the promotion of parochial schools within their different districts.
The Earl of Carnarvonstrongly urged the necessity of entering upon an immediate inquiry into the state of Ireland. He had been surprised to hear the noble earl opposite talk of the boons which the government had granted to the Irish nation. Now, if the distresses of Ireland had arisen from causes unconnected with the government of that country, any measure of amelioration might not improperly be called a boos; but, when the evils complained of were the result of misgovernment alone, it was barely an act of justice to remedy them. He was convinced, that if the motion were not carried, no inquiry would take place on the part of government. The state of Ireland seemed to be too appalling for the contemplation of ministers. They shrank from the inquiry, and wished to let all the
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horrors which were connected with the subject remain, if possible, undisclosed. By agreeing to the motion of his noble friend, the House would, he was persuaded, do more good than could be effected by all the measures which had been promised by ministers.
The House divided, for the original motion; Contents 43; Proxies 16–59. Not-contents, 66; Proxies 39–105. Majority against the motion, 46.

List of the Minority.

DUKES.

Clare

Somerset

Thanet

Devonshire

Cowper

Grafton

Grey

Leinster

Breadalbane

MARQUIS

Denbigh

Lansdown

VISCOUNTS

EARLS

Clifden

Darlington

Anson

Rosslyn

LORDS

Roseberry

Belhaven

Lauderdale

Gwydir

Grosvenor

King

Carnarvon

Cawdor

Donoughmore

Lynedock

Gosford

Alvanley

Caledon

Auckland

Tankerville

Saye-and-Sele

Cork

Foley

Jersey

Holland

Ilchester

Dacre

Fitzwilliam

Ellenborough.

Essex

Bolton

Darnley

Calthorpe

Proxies.

DUKE

Minto

Bedford

Derby

MARQUIS

VISCOUNTS

Downshire

Bolingbroke

EARLS.

Duncan

Waldegrave

LORDS

Albemarle

Yarborough

Charlemont

Crewe

Besborough

Dundas

Fortescue

Suffield

Spencer