Sitting of 24 February 1823

FOREIGN ENLISTMENT BILL.—
Sir R. Wilson,in rising to present a petition from the inhabitants of the parish of St. Saviour's, Southwark, begged to state to the House, that he had no concern whatever in originating the petition. It was a spontaneous act of men, who had never been backward to complain of whatever appeared to them to be injurious to national honour or to European liberty. They were not men of words, but would follow up what they said by actions. The petition prayed, that the Foreign Enlistment bill might be repealed. He would not enlarge upon the prayer of the petition. But he could not avoid calling the attention of the House to the degree to which that new infringement of international law had been stigmatised, at the time when it was introduced. It had been so, not only by the mass of the people, but by those brave defenders of their country, who were ever ready to support the cause of freedom, and the best interests of man. He could not help congratulating the House and the country upon the favourable aspect of the policy of this country, and be hoped that those manly and liberal professions would be amply fulfilled. At the present most important juncture, it would require both caution and firmness on the part of this country; and he would add that, if the obnoxious measure were not repealed, it would counteract, in no small degree, those liberal principles.
Mr. Hobhousebegged to second the prayer of the petition, and at the same time to congratulate the House and the country upon the first step which had been taken, by rescinding the orders in council, to place England in a proper light in the eyes of Europe. It was a step absolutely necessary for the welfare of this country, and for the independence of the nations of the continent. For his own part, be thought, that nothing short of a war would satisfy the present infatuated government of France. He was convinced of the absolute necessity of repealing the Foreign Enlistment bill, the Alien bill, and all those other measures which had tended to connect this country with that impious league which, under the name of the Holy Alliance, had been formed against the happiness of mankind. When the Foreign Enlistment bill was pro-
240
posed to the House, the late noble secret tars for foreign affairs had stated, that was at the express instigation of Old Spain. What reason then, could be more powerful in favour of its repeal, than the interests of that same Old Spain?—What could be more just than to listen again to the representations of that power, at whose request this measure had been adopted? He hoped the House would not hesitate to repeal these bills, and to show the Bourbons of France the determination this country had taken. It was with fear and trembling that he suffered the opinion to escape his lips, that war was inevitable. There was nothing more easy than to get into a war; but the difficulty of coming out of it with honour, and without committing the interests of the country, was too formidable not to be considered with alarm. He would not say one word that might seem to urge so perilous a measure; but he was sure, that if ministers were driven into it, they would be heartily backed by the whole country. He could not help thanking the ministers for the prudence they had hitherto displayed on this occasion. They should have his warmest praise (if praise from him were worth having) for the conduct they had hitherto pursued. He would be understood to speak of the present, and not the late ministry; for if the same language had been held at Troppan and Laybach, as he had reason to believe had been held at Verona, we should not now have been placed in the emergency of having to choose between the consideration of those difficulties and dangers which beset them at home, and the maintenance of the independence of Europe and the liberties of mankind at large. He was induced to mention this subject at the present moment, in consequence of the vile insinuations contained in a production, which, in other times, would have been called a treasury pamphlet. He knew, however, that this was no treasury pamphlet: it was called "The Crisis of Spain," and presumed to tell the people of England to be afraid of the line of policy which France might take. And for what reason should we be afraid of France? It could never be forgotten, that we had beaten France and Frenchmen before, on the same ground and for the same cause. This notable pamphlet bid us also tremble at what Austria might do. What had we to dread from Austria? Let Austria

241
look to herself; for if England did but hold up her finger, all Italy would be in arms. Austria, indeed, was not in a condition to deter this country from pursuing that line of conduct which was alike dictated by justice and sound policy.
Mr. Secretary Canningsaid, that the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, had done ministers the honour to compliment them upon their conduct; and, among the good qualities which he had attributed to them, he had praised them for their prudence. He felt strongly, that that prudence forbad, at the present moment, any discussion on the subject, and he rose chiefly for the purpose of repressing any further discussion on a point which had originated accidentally. He should, however, act unfairly to that government of which he was so recent a member, if he did not reject any praise which was bestowed upon it, at the expense of those by whom it had formerly been composed. He was compelled in mere justice to say, that upon his entering the office which he had the honour to fill, he found the principles on which the government were acting, reduced into writing; and this state paper formed what he might be allowed to call the political creed of the ministers. Upon the execution of the principles there laid down, and upon that alone, was founded any claim he might have to credit from the House. With respect to the other topics which had been brought before the House, he felt he ought not to allow himself to be led into any discussion relating to them. Besides the general reasons which forbad any further debate while the smallest hope remained of compassing that pacific result in which the interests of Europe were so deeply concerned, there were some material circumstances which, at the present moment, made such debate particularly inexpedient. Before he sat down, he felt compelled to say that, in pursuing that policy for which the hon. gentleman had given them credit, his majesty's ministers had been aided by the forbearance—he would not say the unexpected forbearance—of the House.
Ordered to lie on the table.

NAVY ESTIMATES.—
The report of the Committee of Supply on the Navy Estimates being brought up,
Mr. Humerose to notice one or two circumstances. The first was, the prac-
242
tice of the government with respect to the promotions in the navy during the last year. The House, he thought, was hardly aware of the amount of the expense which had been incurred, by the number of officers which had been added. He found that 5,689 officers, of the rank of lieutenants and upwards, were receiving half-pay, and that their half-pay and allowances amounted to nearly one million. He did not grudge the half-pay; but what he contended for was, that ministers were not justified in the additions they had made. It was his opinion, and that of many other persons, that promotions in the navy had now become the greatest means of patronage, and the extension of favour to individuals connected with that House. He intended to move for a return of the numbers promoted last year; and he should then show, that many of those persons were not entitled, by their services, to the situations in which they had been placed. The consequence of this had been, that many old and deserving officers had been passed by, who had become disgusted, and unwilling to serve on any future occasion, because young men of family or political interest had been placed over them. The injurious effect pf this measure was apparent, when it was recollected, that the prosperity and glory of the country must mainly depend upon the sufficiency of its marine. The returns would show, that the conduct of ministers in this respect, had been utterly inconsistent with the professions of economy from the throne. He was not then prepared to move upon this subject; but if it should appear, that the increase of the half-pay and allowances, in consequence of these promotions, amounted to more than all the reductions in the civil department, he thought the House must be impressed with the importance of the subject: 780 persons had been promoted since the peace, and the consequent increase amounted to half a million sterling. There were, last year, no less than 120 promotions, which appeared to him to be a unnecessary. With regard to the estimate, it was impossible to regard what the reduction really was, because the hon. baronet (sir J. Osborn), whom he did not now see in his place, had stated, that certain items had been taken from the amount of the estimate this year, without specifying what those items were. Now, he should like to know what had been deducted from the estimate, and what the

243
amount of that deduction had been. The estimate for 25,000 men was, he observed, no greater than the estimate for 20,000 men at a former period. It turned out, however, that some items had been reduced, which might occasion the difference. It would be proper, therefore, to state to the House what items had been taken out of this year's estimate, in order that they might clearly perceive how it stood with reference to the estimate of last year. As to the marine service, the knowledge of the House was extremely imperfect. He wished to have an estimate of the expense of the marines, of the same nature as the annual estimate of the expense of the military force.
Sir G. Clerksaid, that with respect to certain promotions to which the hon. gentleman had alluded, it was unnecessary for him to enter into any explanation, as the hon. member intended to bring the subject under the consideration of the House by a specific motion. When the hon. member made that motion, the admiralty would be prepared to show, that they were perfectly justified in the course they had taken. Those promotions were made from persons belonging to the class of midshipmen, on those stations. If they were not so made, the vessels on foreign stations would soon be without officers. With respect to the question of the marines, if the hon. gentleman showed a fair parliamentary ground for requiring the information to which he had alluded, proper attention would be paid to it; but till he so introduced the question, it was impossible that a general answer could be given to it. The hon. gentleman observed, that alterations had been made in the navy estimates, by which the expense of wear and tear, &c. had been reduced, but that some new items were inserted in those estimates. The House, however, would find, that though the present estimate exceeded by 4,000 men the estimate of last year, yet there was a reduction on the former, as compared with the latter, of 220,000 l. That saving was made under the head of victualling, and the wear and tear of ships. This might be accounted for, by referring to the great reduction in the price of provisions and timber, and also the reduction of the rate of wages in the dock-yards.
The resolutions were then agreed to.

RIOT AT THE DUBLIN THEATRE.—
Mr. Brownlowrose to move for a series of
244
papers relative to certain proceedings which had recently taken place in the court of King's-bench, in Ireland. As he understood that there was no objection to their production, it was not necessary that he should preface his motion with any observations. He then moved for, 1. "Copies of the Committals of the persons engaged in the alleged riot and conspiracy on the 14th of last December, in the Dublin theatre." 2. "Copies of the Bills of Indictment, alleging a riot and conspiracy to riot, which were preferred to the grand jury in the city of Dublin, on the 1st Jan. last, and the finding of the jury thereon." 3. "A Copy of the Ex-officio Information, on the same subject, filed in the Court of King's-bench by his majesty's attorney-general for Ireland."
Mr. Plunkettsaid, it was, he presumed, the intention of the hon. member to follow up the motion for the production of those papers with some ulterior proceeding, with respect to what had taken place in the court of King's-bench, Ireland, and the transactions that had occurred there. As the present motion was merely for the production of papers, it was not his intention to invite any debate on the subject which the hon. member meant to bring before the House. He begged leave to express his extreme satisfaction on finding it at length announced, that the question would be specifically brought forward. He was glad that it was in the hands of the hon. gentleman, who would discharge his duty to the House and the country, on this, as he did on all occasions, with perfect propriety. But he could not avoid expressing some degree of surprise, that it had devolved on him to bring the question forward; because, when, on a former occasion, an inquiry was made relative to the catholic question, a right hon. baronet was so eager to give an opinion on this case, which had nothing to do with the question which had been asked, that he could not help observing, that these proceedings were an improper course of proceeding. When that right hon. baronet, who was a member of the legal profession, and who at one period had tilled the office which he (Mr. P.) now held, felt it necessary to make this charge, that the proceedings were improper, he did expect that the right hon. baronet would have come forward himself in a manly manner, and abided by the charge he had thought fit to make. He was ready to meet the

245
charge; and he could not but express his expectation, that the right hon. baronet would come forward to second the motion of the hon. member for Armagh, and to substantiate the charge which he had made. The transactions in the court of King's-bench involved a public question infinitely more important than any thing that merely related to himself. He hoped, therefore, that the hon. gentleman would take an early opportunity of bringing it forward.
Sir J. Stewartsaid, he had not pledged himself to make any direct charge on the occasion alluded to. He felt himself justified in offering the remark which had occasioned the observations of the learned gentleman, because the state of Ireland had been referred to at the time; and because he was convinced, that the late proceedings had not produced a good effect. He would say, in the face of that House and of the world, that those proceedings, if not absolutely illegal, were certainly unconstitutional. This he felt himself compelled to state, though he entertained the most friendly regard for the learned gentleman. He admitted the great talents and the tried worth of the learned gentleman; but no private consideration should induce him to shrink from what he conceived to be his duty.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersuggested, whether it would not be prudent, en every account, not to press the discussion farther. The proposition was, that certain documents should be laid on the table. No objection was made to the production of those documents. The right hon. baronet had, however, taken the present opportunity to state, that the acts of the attorney-general of Ireland, if not strictly illegal, were highly unconstitutional. Now, he did not think it was placing the House in a fair situation, to call on them, thus prematurely, to discuss a question which was of such vital importance to the learned gentleman, to the government of which he formed a part, and to the interests of the country at large.
Mr. M. Fitzgeraldasked, as the parties were at issue, whether it was absolutely necessary, with regard to this question, to wait for the production of these papers? If it was not necessary, and if, in consequence of recent proceedings, the peace and tranquillity of the country had been disturbed, an expression of the opinion of that House ought to be sent forth as soon
246
as possible. Looking to the temper and feelings of either party, he saw little prospect of the agitation which at present prevailed being speedily allayed. In his opinion, what the right hon. gentleman had said in favour of postponing this question, contained most cogent reasons for bringing it forward. The character of the attorney-general, and the character of his majesty's government, demanded this inquiry. But, there was a third party, the people of Ireland, on whose behalf he strenuously called for that investigation. Could the particular manner in which the indictment was worded, or the mode in which these persons were tried, at all affect the decision of the House? The question to be discussed was merely this—whether, after a bill of indictment had been ignored by the grand jury, it was proper to file an ex officio information against the parties?
Mr. Crokersaid, it seemed to him, that on a question of so much importance, papers should not be moved for on the sudden, and granted as a matter of course. No person could deny the right of that House to interfere with a legal proceeding, when a sufficient ground was laid; but he thought it would have been more consonant with the practice of parliament, and the law and constitution of the country, if the hon. member had given notice of motion. He strongly deprecated any interference, per saltum, with the proceedings of courts of justice.
Mr. Brownlowsaid, that before he moved for these documents, he had been given to understand, that there was not the slightest objection to granting them. He would submit a motion to the House on the subject, on the earliest possible day after the recess.
Mr. Abercrombydoubted the propriety of the mode which the hon. member intended to take. If the hon. member meant to found on these papers a vote of censure on the Irish attorney-general, he (Mr. A.) should be placed in a very great difficulty. He felt that there was not any defect or illegality in the exercise of this power. It was not asserted, that the attorney-general had done what he was not legally entitled to do; but that he had lent himself to an unconstitutional proceeding. If that were the case, it involved an inquiry into the whole of the proceedings that had taken place; and, towards such an inquiry as that, the hon. member had made no advance whatever;

247
for he had not laid before the House those facts and circumstances which it was necessary they should know, prior to their deciding whether or not a censure should be passed on the attorney-general. There was another objection, which he put to the candour of the hon. member. Let the opinions on the catholic question be what they might, still no man who wished that subject to be fairly and temperately discussed, could wish it to be brought forward until the other was disposed of. His firm conviction was, that this preliminary question should first be discussed and settled.
Mr. Brownlowsaid, he intended to submit his motion, previous to the discussion on the catholic question.
The motion was agreed to.

IRISH YEOMANRY.—
Mr. Humerose to move for returns of the names of all persons in the yeomanry service in Ireland, who received pensions in the nature of reward or retired allowances, the length of their respective services, the dates of appointments, &c. It appeared, he said, from parliamentary papers, that 1,278 l. was paid in annual pensions to brigadier-majors of yeomanry in Ireland. It was new to him to hear of this sort of half-pay for yeomanry officers. In referring to the Irish accounts, he found no less a sum than 400,000 l. paid in retired pensions and salaries. Now, the act of the 50th Geo. 3rd, c. 3, under the authority of which some of these military pensions were granted, expressly declared the nature of the rank entitled to them, and yeomanry brigade-majors were not mentioned; so that he was at a loss to see by what law such grants had been made.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, he had no objection whatever to the production of the information called for. With respect to certain individuals to whom the hon. gentleman had alluded on a former night, he wished, in justice to the parties, to give some explanation. The hon. gentleman, when speaking of major Collis, had said, that the major was not entitled on account of infirmities (the reason assigned) to the allowance which he received; and he gave three reasons for that opinion: the first was, that the major was not above 40 years of age; the second, that he had served but a limited period in the yeomanry; and the third, that that officer, so far from being infirm, was in good bodily health. These facts were
248
not, however, correct. In the first place, as to length of service, he had joined the army in the year 1776, and was severely wounded in the following year. After serving 45 years, he was invalided upon the report of the medical physician, that he was infirm from repeated attacks of the gout, that he had a liver complaint, and was also suffering under a paralytic affection. Surely these were sufficient reasons for allowing such an officer a retiring allowance!
Mr. Humesaid, that the case which the right hon. gentleman had just stated, was not that which he had mentioned on a former evening. His statement was, that major Collis had been pensioned after ten years' service, and that the Irish lawyers might as well call the major a woman, as a person entitled to the pension, according to the military regulations recognized by the act of parliament. It was not, however, of major Collis, but of major Bridgeman that he had spoken, as being a person, who, though retired "through infirmities," was as hale and as hearty as himself was, and only 45 years of age.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that the explanation, in either way, was inaccurate. Major Bridgeman had joined the British service in South Carolina, so far back as the year 1780: and had served ten years as a brigade-major in the Irish yeomanry; but, even after this length of service, there was the most positive certification of infirmities, from the high authority of Dr. Rennie, of Dublin. Major Bridgeman had fallen from his horse in a fit of apoplexy, while in the discharge of his military duty; and had many years-suffered from a constitutional determination of blood to his head, which had seriously affected his health, and rendered his retirement necessary.
The motion was agreed to.

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.—
Earl Somerspresented a petition complaining of Agricultural Distress, agreed to at the Hereford county meeting on the 17th of January, at which meeting his lordship presided; he having agreed to summon it, pursuant to requisition, after the high sheriff had declined to call it. His lordship detailed the circumstances which took place at the meeting. He thought it right to do so, because he had refused to sign the petition, and because he objected to some of the allegations contained in it. The agricultural distress was undoubtedly very great; and though it might be said that, after a time, that distress would be alleviated; and though it was true, that great landholders might withstand the pressure, still it could not but excite the most melancholy feelings in men who were enabled to bear up against it, to see their neighbours continually falling one after another around them. He certainly did not mean to advocate any measure that could affect public credit; far from it. Public credit was to a nation, what private credit was to an individual; but let it be recollected, how much, during the war, public credit was supported by the landholders, who

235
had cheerfully sustained the burthens imposed upon them—burthens which were the more heavy, inasmuch as, in addition to the taxes they paid in common with other classes, there were various local rates which bore exclusively upon them. It was impossible they could continue to sustain those burthens, under the change of circumstances which had occurred. In addition to the depreciation of prices arising from the transition from war to peace, they had to encounter the baneful effects of what was called Mr. Peel's bill. He did not mean to say that we ought not ultimately to return to a metallic currency; but he objected to the period, as being a peculiarly unfortunate one, at which that bill began to operate. It certainly greatly added to the distress. He knew many instances in which estates had been mortgaged, under then existing circumstances as to their value, for the purpose of providing portions for younger children; and the effect, under the change of circumstances, that had taken place was, that the younger children took all the profits of the estate, and nothing was left for the eldest sons, to whom it was intended the estates should devolve. His idea was, not that any measure should be adopted affecting public credit, but that the burthens now falling exclusively upon the landholders, should be equally borne by the other classes of society. A man might have 200,000 l. in the funds, and might pay very little assessed taxes or poor-rates; whilst he, who had that capital invested in land, not only paid taxes and rates himself, but all his tenants occupying portions of his land, paid also taxes and rates for every part of it. This he considered an unfair apportionment of the burthens of the state, and one which pressed most heavily upon the landholders, and threatened extensive ruin. He was convinced that the original intention of the 43rd Elizabeth was, that personal property, as well as land and houses, should be assessed to the poor-rates. He was aware that there was considerable difficulty in assessing personal property to the poor-rate; but, under the circumstances of distress in which the landed interest were placed, he thought this difficulty ought to be encountered.
Ordered to lie on the table.

MARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL.—
The Archbishop of Canterburymoved, that the committee on the law regarding
236
marriages should have permission to report from time to time. This having been agreed to, his grace presented a report from the committee, recommending, that until an ultimate decision could be come to, a short bill should be passed, repealing all the clauses of the Marriage act of last session, relating to the solemnization of marriages. The report having been agreed to, his grace presented a bill for the purpose mentioned in the report, stating that it was thought advisable to introduce this measure, with the view of allaying a very unpleasant excitement in the public mind upon this subject, and of preventing that immorality wind might arise from impediments being thrown in the way of marriage. The committee would, with the least possible delay, come to a determination upon the whole subject; but its consideration would unavoidably take up some time.
Lord Ellenboroughwas anxious that there should be no misunderstanding with regard to the object of the bill presented by the right reverend prelate. The effect of it would be, that the old law regarding marriages would be restored, with the exceptions that the marriages could not be annulled, and that the surrogates, whose power of granting licences was taken away by the act of last session, would still not have the power of granting such licences. In all other respects the old law, with regard to the solemnization of marriages, would be restored.
The bill was read a first time.

DISPUTE BETWEEN FRANCE AND SPAIN.—
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that he rose for the purpose of putting some questions to the noble earl at the head of his majesty's government, relating to foreign affairs. He was sure the House would feel that it could not be his wish to provoke any premature discussion, which might by possibility interfere with any negotiations going on with a view to the preservation of peace. His object was to ascertain whether the same ground of hope that was stated on a previous night as a reason for not entering into particulars still existed; and he was the more anxious to abstain from any general discussion, if that should be the case, in consequence of the fortunate concurrence of opinion manifested by both houses of parliament at the commencement of the session. When he considered that three weeks had elapsed since the meeting of

237
parliament, and that many opportunities had since occurred of receiving communications from the Spanish government, and still more from the government of France, which, by the threat denounced against Spain, had struck at the independence of nations, he was anxious to put a question, the answer to which would be anxiously looked for by all persons; namely, whether that hope, whatever the value of it might be, of preserving the peace of western Europe, still existed in the minds of his majesty's ministers, or whether any expectation at all was entertained by them, that peace could be preserved? It would depend upon the answer which he received, whether he would put another question or not, arising out of the topic to which he had already alluded.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that on the first day the subject was introduced, he took the liberty, in answer to the noble marquis, of explaining the state of our foreign relations, as far as he conceived to be consistent with his public duty. He had then stated, that the door was not absolutely closed against the prospect of peace, and had deprecated any further discussion, as calculated to interfere with the exertions which his majesty's government were making towards the accomplishment of so desirable an object. Whatever difference of opinion might exist upon any other point, there was but one as to the propriety of maintaining a general peace. He, therefore, must again deprecate any further discussion, until it was evident that peace could not be preserved. He had no difficulty in stating, at the same time, that special circumstances had arisen, since the period before alluded to, and some of them very recently, which made him more adverse than before to any discussion of the existing differences between France and Spain. He would not shrink at a future day from explaining the grounds upon which his majesty's government had proceeded; but, as they all looked with anxiety to the preservation of what the noble marquis had called the peace of western Europe, he was sure their lordships would be induced to refrain from further observation; especially when he stated, that the forbearance which parliament had already shown, had afforded material advantages to his majesty's government in its negociations with foreign powers.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that it
238
was impossible to be dissatisfied with what had fallen from the noble earl, always bearing in mind that ministers were acting on their own responsibility. The observation, that the forbearance adopted by parliament, had afforded advantage to the negotiations of the government, must have the effect of closing his mouth, as to the state in which those negotiations at present stood; but there was one question that he felt himself justified in putting to the noble earl, and to which he did not anticipate any objection. It was, whether, in the course of the negotiations which preceded the recent difference between France and Spain, any engagement had been entered into, as to any part which this country might take in the result of a contest? In short, whether this country was still unshackled, as to the course which she might feel it necessary to adopt, supposing a war between France and Spain to be inevitable?
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, it would be impossible to give a detailed answer to that question, without entering into a review of the whole policy adopted by this government for a considerable period; but this much he would say generally, that, this government had entered into no engagement whatever, nor would they feel themselves justified in doing so, which could prevent them from taking any course that might hereafter appear necessary to the honour and character of the nation.
Lord Ellen boroughsaid, he did not rise for the purpose of putting any question, after the explanation of the noble earl; but he could not entertain any sanguine views, with respect to the preservation of peace between France and Spain, since the speech of the king of France. The noble earl had stated, that the same desire for a continuation of peace between France and Spain which was felt by his majesty's ministers, was also felt by the noble lords who generally opposed them. In that opinion he fully agreed; and he could say for himself, that he looked with the utmost anxiety to the prevention of any war, in the present state of the public feeling. But, if the mediation of England was conducted upon the principle of inducing Spain to give up any part of her constitutional privileges, we were as guilty of injustice, as the allied powers themselves; and the ministers, if they had so committed themselves, would incur a heavy responsibility.