Sitting of 12 February 1823

FOREIGN TRADE OF THE COUNTRY.
—Mr. Wallacerose, in pursuance of notice, to move for the revival of the committee of last session, to consider of the best means of maintaining and improving the Foreign Trade of the country. He made this motion not merely upon the general ground, that the commerce of the country was likely to receive important advantages from the labours of such a committee, but also upon a special reason, arising out of the circumstances under which the committee had separated at the close of last session. He was sure that the House would recollect, that when the dock system was first established in this country, certain exclusive privileges were granted to those who expended their

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capital in promoting it. Those privileges, however, were only granted for a limited period, and many of them were about to expire. The first to expire were those granted to the West India Dock Company; and that body, contemplating their approaching expiration, had presented a petition to parliament, praying for their further continuance. That petition had been met by others, of which the prayer was directly the reverse; and these conflicting petitions had been referred to the consideration of the committee upon foreign trade. The committee, feeling the importance of the question, not merely as it related to individuals, but also as it affected the commercial interests of the country at large, thought it to be their duty to suspend the examination of the subject upon which they were then engaged, and to devote their attention to the inquiry which the House had entrusted to its care. In consequence, they prosecuted that inquiry with the utmost diligence, and, before the close of the session, collected all the evidence which was material to it. By the time, however, that such evidence was collected, the session was nearly brought to a conclusion, and the committee then felt that they had neither time, nor indeed (owing to many members having left town) numbers sufficient to offer au opinion upon it, that was likely to prove satisfactory either to the House, or to the nation in general. That consideration led them tee defer the delivery of their opinion to the present session, when they trusted that they should be re-appointed; and when they were more likely to come to a satisfactory decision. Such, then, was the situation in which the question rested at present. Evidence had been collected and materials for decision had been prepared; it remained only for the House to place the committee once more in such a situation as would enable it to give, and the House to receive, the opinions which it had derived from a thorough examination of the whole subiect.—Having stated this special ground for the re-appointment of the committee, he deemed it unnecessary to enter into any of the general grounds. The principal objects to which the committee had directed its attention were well known to the House; the course of its inquiries was also known; and the result of theta had been in some instances brought before it in a legislative shape. Neither did he feel
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it to be necessary to enter into any detailed account of the export trade of the country: indeed, at the present moment, the materials for such a discussion, were not in his possession. Still, in bringing forward a motion like the present, he could not avoid calling the attention of the House to the very different situations in which the commerce of the country now stood, from that in which it stood at the tune when this committee was first appointed, At that time, great distress pervaded the nation, and a general feeling of despondency prevailed among ail classes of society. The general export of the country in the four years from 1815 to 1819, had decreased 14 millions in official value; and he took the official rather than the actual value, because the official value was the measure of quantity, and because it was from quantity that the hest measure was derived of the employment afforded to the different classes of the community. In the year from the 5th Jan. 1819, to the 5th Jan. 1820, the export trade fed no less than 11 millions; and in looking at that part of it which was more completely of British and Irish manufacture, he found that the difference in four years, was 8,414,711 l.; and that in the year from 5th Jan. 1820, to 5th Jan. 1821, there was a decrease of 8,929,629 l. Nobody, therefore, could be surprised, that at that period the industry of the country appeared to be in a state of the utmost depression—that our manufacturers were most of them unemployed—that our agriculturists were many of them embarrassed—and that the country, to use a phrase which an hon. friend of his had employed in presenting a petition from the merchants of London, exhibited all the appearance of a dying nation. Though the condition of the agricultural interest was not at present as favourable as he could wish, still it was most satisfactory to him to state, that not only did the exports of last year exceed those of all the years to which he had just been alluding, but also those of the most flourishing year which the country had known during the continuance of the war. In all the material articles, there had been a considerable increase. The export of cotton had increased 10 per cent; of hardware, 17 per cent; of linens, 12 per cent; and of woollens, 13 per cent; and the aggregate exports of 1822 exceeded those of 1820; by 20 per cent; and those of 1821, by 7 per cent; not-

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withstanding a deduction was to be made from the exports of one great article, refined sugar, owing to a prohibitory decree of Russia, amounting at least to 35 per cent. Such was the state of the export trade at the present moment, and he did not know that any stronger reason could be given for the revival of the committee on foreign trade, than that which the flourishing state of that trade naturally suggested. It could not fail to strike the observation of every member, that we held that trade at the present moment upon a very different tenure from that upon which we held it during the war. At that time, we were almost the only nation in the world that had any foreign trade: at present, we had to stand against the competition of every other nation; and, happy was he to perceive, that we could stand against it with every prospect of success. To make that prospect even more satisfactory, nothing more was necessary than to institute a revision of our commercial system, to remove the greater part of our prohibitory laws and restrictions, and to put ourselves in a situation that would enable us to avail ourselves of the chances and contingencies which the state of time world seemed ready to open to the commercial skill and enterprise of England. On many of the subjects which had been originally submitted to the consideration of the committee, the opinions of the committee had been declared to the House, and the House had adopted such measures upon them as seemed best suited to the circumstances of the case. If there had not yet been sufficient time for the country to reap any great benefits from those measures, there had still been sufficient time to show, that none of the evils which it was predicted would arise from them, had been realized. Whilst they had released time navigation laws from the mass of useless legislation by which they had been formerly incumbered, it was gratifying to observe, that time navigation of the country had not at all diminished, and that the effects which, it had been confidently stated, would occur with regard to one particular branch of our trade had by no means taken place. He had had a paper recently placed in his hands, which showed, that instead of the Levant trade coming through Holland into the ports of this country, as had been predicted, English vessels were now actually exporting articles of that trade from British ports to those of Holland. They had
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likewise been told, that the Norway trade, as also that of the North American colonies, would be cut up by the roots, if the measures proposed were carried into execution. They had been carried into execution; and, from information which he had received, he could assert that the Norway trade had actually increased in the last year; that debts there which had been thought desperate had recently been recovered; and that the North American trade had been extended, instead of undergoing the diminution which had been so loudly threatened—The committee had also been instructed to look at the great question of opening further facilities to our commerce with the east. They had consequently taken it into their consideration, and had offered their opinions upon it to the House, which were found to concur with those formed by a committee of the other house of parliament, that had been deliberating upon the same subject. The advantages which had been anticipated from the measures which the committee had proposed to the House, had not proved so great as had been expected; but still considerable advantage had been derived from allowing English ships, of a certain burden, to be placed on the same footing with foreign ships, and to sail direct form our ports to India. The committee was desirous that the same privilege should be extended to all descriptions of ships, but they could not recommend such a measure to be adopted, as they were bound down by a specific act of parliament, which in common fairness to the East India company, ought not to be infringed. He trusted, however, that that great body, which received so much benefit from the act in question, would, at an early period evince, a disposition to make some concession from its strict rights to the general good of the community.—The last subject on which the committee was instructed to inquire, was the burdens imposed on the shipping of the country. That subject had not been neglected by the committee; and he felt great pleasure in now returning his thanks to one great corporation for the alacrity and zeal with which it had carried the recommendations of the committee into effect. In consequence of foreign ships being placed more nearly upon a footing with our own, many of them had already sought, in dangerous weather, a shelter in our ports; and, if one of the many vessels which had formerly been scared

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from our coasts by the heavy duties which they had to pay on entering our harbours, had been, or should be, saved from shipwreck by such an alteration in our commercial policy, the labours of the committee would be amply repaid. Valuable as all the measures to which he had been alluding had proved to the country, they were not more valuable than the declarations which they had elicited from the government and from the House, of the real principles on which they thought that British commerce ought to rest; namely, that they ought to get rid of the old restrictive system of commerce, and to adopt one more liberal in its nature and more beneficial to the intercourse of foreign nations with this country. Those declarations had had their full weight both at home and abroad: they had already made several of the nations of Europe more liberal in their commercial restrictions: many countries had already placed English ships on the same footing with their own, and had shown a disposition to act towards us, on a system of complete reciprocity. He was convinced that we could adopt the principle of reciprocity with perfect safety to the navigation of the country. For his own part, he had no doubt upon the subject; and he trusted, that in a short time the country would have none also. He was aware, however, of the difficulties with which they had to struggle at every step in their endeavours to arrive at a free trade—difficulties which arose, not merely from old and antiquated prejudices, which, he trusted, would gradually fade away; but also from a morbid sensibility incident to the manufacturers of this, and, he believed, of every other country, which induced them to believe, that every advantage granted to the foreigner was a positive injury to themselves. He was as much alive to the real interests of the manufacturer as any man could be; but, in discussing a great question in which all the interests of the country were concerned, he must be convinced, before he was persuaded to yield to their remonstrances, that it was a real danger which they feared, and not a mere idle alarm or visionary apprehension. He therefore trusted, that while the House showed a readiness to give the protection that was all times due to the manufacturing interests of the country, it would also remember its duty to the nation at large, and to the commercial interests of the
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whole community.—The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving, "That a Select Committee be appointed to consider of the means of maintaining and improving the Foreign Trude of the Country."
Mr. Baringrose to acknowledge the obligations which the trade of the country owed to the right hon. gentleamn. The merits of the right hon. gentleman were fully appreciated by the merchants of London. There was but one opinion amongst them, and that was, that since the first establishment of the Board of Trade, all the exertions of all its former presidents were not, when united, equal to those which had been made by the right hon. gentleman alone, during the time he had tilled that office with so much honour to himself and so much advantage to the community at large.
Mr. Ricardorose for the purpose of paying his tribute of respect to the merits of the right hon. gentleman, who had so lately filled the office of vice-president of the Board of Trade. He would say this; that, much as the right hon. gentleman's plans had benefitted the commerce of the country, they would have benefitted it still more, had all of them been fully carried into effect. They had met, however, with too many obstacles from interests that were hostile to his improvements; and, though he regretted the circumstance much, he must still observe, that those interests ought to be tenderly dealt with. He thought it would be wiser to make a compensation to any parties who might be injured by the alteration, than to persist in a system which was proved to be detrimental to the commercial interests of the nation at large. He had heard with the greatest pleasure, the very liberal speech which the right hon. gentleman had made that evening; nor was it with less satisfaction that he had heard his flattering account of the export trade of the country. It had been said, that the exports were greater now than they had been during the most flourishing year of the war. It ought likewise to be stated, that during the war our great foreign exports went to meet our great foreign expenditure; whereas at present we received valuable returns for every thing we exported. In looking at the general state of the country, it was satisfactory to find that, amid the gloom and distress in which the agricultural interests were involved, its foreign commerce was in a flourishing condition. He was sure

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that it must be the wish of all who heard him, that it might long go on, prospering and to prosper. His only reason for rising was to bear his testimony to the extraordinary merits of the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. Humerose to express his deep regret that the country was likely to lose the services of the right hon. gentleman, who, for the last two or three years, had devoted his attention so beneficially to the public. If ministers had had the interest of the nation as much at heart, as the making a provision for their friends, they would have contrived, in some way, to have secured the assistance of the vice president of the Board of Trade. It had most fortunately of late become the general opinion, that the interest of the state was involved in the interests of individuals, and the labours of the right hon. gentleman had been applied to carry this principle into effect. It was, therefore, deeply to be lamented, that he was compelted by circumstances to retire from his situation.
Mr. Secretary Canningcordially agreed in what had just fallen from the hon. member for Aberdeen. He regretted, as much as any man, that any circumstances should have occurred to induce his right hon. friend to withdraw his aid from his majesty's government. What those circumstances were was not perhaps a fit subject for discussion: he could only say, that there was no member of the government who did not join with blot in appreciating most highly the talents of the coadjutor they were about to lose. Though feelings of delicacy might induce his right hon. friend to relinquish the situation he now held, no effort would be left untried, on the part of the king's government, to replace him in an office equal to his high abilities and eminent services.
The committee was then re-appointed.

COURTS OF JUSTICE IN IRELAND—CHIEF BARON O'GRADY.—
Mr. Spring Ricerequested the attention of the House while he brought before it a subject of the greatest importance. He alluded to the administration of justice in Ireland, and particularly the charges contained in the 9th and 11th reports of the commissioners of inquiry against chief baron O'Grady. He did not wish to go into the merits of this great question at the present moment. He would now only state specifically what had been done on this sub
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ject, and ask the government, what course was by them intended to be pursued re garding it? In 1814, his right hon. friend, the member for Waterford, moved an address to the crown for the appointment of commissioners to inquire into the conduct of the officers connected with the administration of justice in Ireland. Very few parliamentary efforts reflected more honour on their author. Few public men had been able to do more good to their country than his right hon. friend had by this single motion, and he would add, in perfect sincerity that, as far as government was concerned in the furtherance of the inquiry, and with regard to the selection of commissioners, it had deserved well of the country. A more painful duty could hardly by imposed upon men, nor could any set of men have performed it in a more fearless or uncompromising manner than these commissioners had done. In April 1821, a report was made from these gentlemen, reflection very seriously on the chief baron of Ireland. That learned lord was thereby involved in charges of the gravest importance; for they went the length of imputing to him that, in the execution of his duties as a judge, he had been guilty of extortion on the suitors in his court, in taking as fees more than was due, or that which was not due at the time it was taken. In June 1821, he (Mr. Rice) brought this subject before parliament, and he then moved a series of resolutions founded on the report of the commissioners. The noble marquis (Londonderry) then the organ of government in that House, asked, him to suspend his measures, and promised to bring the subject forward in another shape. At a future time a select committee was appointed, to which the whole subject was referred. The House would recollect, that this committee was appointed on the motion of the noble marquis. The report of that committee (of which two of the ministers were members), was not conclusive on all the points of inquiry. They required more information to arrive at a decisive judgment. The noble marquis pledged himself, that the subject should be referred to the competent authorities in Ireland. At the commencement of the last session the subject was again referred to the same commissioners of inquiry, who made another report. These documents were now on the table of the House. The charges, it should be remembered, were against a

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high judicial personage, and were preferred by a commission of legal inquiry issued by government, under a parliamentary authority. To these charges the lord chief baron had pleaded not guilty, and the parties had joined issue on that plea. Dating the last session he (Mr. S. Rice) had given notice that he would bring this important subject before parliament, and he was ready, if necessary, to fulfil his engagement. But such a proceeding ought not fairly to be cast on any one individual. Government ought to interfere. They ought not to stand by as a neutral party in this great question. Either they ought to protect the character of the judge, from the attack of the commissioners, or they ought to protect the administration of justice from the abuses of an unworthy depository of judicial power. If the chief baron was correct in his assertions, the commissioners ought to be regarded as a gang of calumniators, not as a reputable body of impartial judges. If, on the other hand, the commissioners were correct in their charges, then the chief baron was unfit to continue in the administration or the law, and ought forthwith to be dismissed from the bench which he disgraced. There never was, he believed, a more important subject submitted to parliament. The prosecution of the inquiry ought not to be cast upon the shoulders of any individual. The Irish government had lately undertaken the task of revising the lists of the magistracy; an act for which every lover of his country felt grateful, though perhaps it was valuable rather for the admission of the principle of reform, than for the mode in which that principle was carried into practice. However, having admitted the principle, that unworthy magistrates ought to be dismissed from trusts they could not execute, was the government prepared to have it said, that while, with much of parade and affectation, they struck oil ignorant and corrupt magistrates, whose principal fault was probably their folly, more exalted offenders, on whose character and conduct the highest interests of society were dependant, should be passed by, not only without punishment, but, as far as ministers were concerned, without accusation? The commission for inquiring into the administration of justice in Ireland, was now proceeding in its researches. It had cost upwards of 100,000 l.of public money. If all this money was not actually
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wasted; if the reports of that commission were to be considered as any thing better than waste paper, why were not these reports made the foundation of measures of practical reform? It was clearly the duty of government to have acted in this case as they had in all others. Confiding in the integrity and ability of this commission, government had undertaken an entire re-modification and reform of the administration of justice in the higher courts of Ireland. They had legislated on the faith of these reports: they had dismissed clerks and regulated offices on the recommendation of the commissioners of inquiry. Were they prepared now to desert their duty, and neglect to bring higher personages to justice? Why were not judges as tit objects of reform as inferior officers? He was perfectly willing to go on with this inquiry himself, painful and invidious as it was; but be called upon government to take the necessary steps; and it was only in their default that he would step forward. As to the probable issue of the inquiry, he would not say one word. If the charges were not maintainable, no man was more anxious than himself, that chief baron O'Grady might be honourably acquitted; but it was doe to public justice, now that he was accused by so respectable a body of prosecutors, that he should at least be tried. He moved, for Copies of all Correspondence between the Irish government and the judges and officers of the courts of justice in Ireland, on the subject of the ninth and eleventh reports of the Commission of Inquiry, and the Letters of chief baron O'Grady, since the 1st of 1822.
Mr. Goulburnwas confident that the hon. member must anticipate the reply he should give to the inquiry contained in what had been just stated, and he trusted that the House would concur in the propriety of the course which government thought itself called upon to pursue. True it was, that the marquis of Londonderry occasioned a further inquiry into a part of the case; but it did not follow, that it was the duty of ministers to proceed with the other parts of it. The committee had been appointed to obtain further information for the general satisfaction of the House; and it seemed to him (Mr. G.), that for government to take up the charge under the particular and especial circumstances, would be a great injustice to the individual inculpated,

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and a gross violation of an important public principle. He saw no analogy between the cases of the inferior magistracy and that of a judge in the first case, it was the undisputed right of the crown to appoint and remove; but a high judicial officer, though named by the crown, was not removable by it, and stood quite upon a different footing. For ministers to proceed in the accusation, would be to make this solemn question a party matter, and would be highly prejudiced to the interest of justice. He did not say that cases might not occur in which the government would be called upon to interpose, but he contended that the present was not one of them. It had been begun by the hon. member fur Limerick; he had persevered in it through several sessions, and he had even that night followed it up by moving for additional documents. The charge could not he in better hands.
Mr. Abercrombycontended, that the marquis of Londonderry, by the proceeding he had recommended, and by the committee he had appointed, had, in point of fact, adopted this accusation. There was no duty more important than for a government to watch over the due administration of justice. He also objected to this being made a party question; but the way to render it so, was to leave it in the hands of an individual member, and to direct against him all the influence of ministers. This charge had for several years been depending against the chief baron, during which time he had gone the circuit, and had tried criminals, when perhaps he himself ought to have been put upon his trial. If government did not proceed, they would be guilty of an abandonment of their duty. If the hon. member for Limerick would take his advice, Le would recommend him to drop the subject, in order to see whether ministers would venture to remain passive spectators.
Mr. Secretary Peelobserved, that the real question was, whether government ought to take the case out of the hands of the hon. member for Limerick, who had commenced the proceeding in 1821. Was there any reason why he should relieve himself, and throw the burthen upon the shoulders of others? Ministers must, of course, be at all times anxious to facilitate these proceedings, and had done their utmost to carry the reforms recommended by the commissioners into effect. They were by no means desirous of shrink-
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ing from their duty; but, because the marquis of Londonderry wished to obtain further information, it was not to be inferred that he meant to undertake the prosecution. He was then only acting in his judicial capacity as a member of parliament. The ends of justice would be best promoted, by leaving the case in the hands of the hon. gentleman who had originally undertaken it.
Mr. Grantby no means agreed, that in moving for a committee, the marquis of Londonderry had pledged government to prosecute the complaint. He thought, however, that the best course which could be taken at present, would be to refer the whole matter to a committee anew.
Mr. S. Ricesaid, he never meant to assert that the marquis of Londonderry had given any distinct pledge on the part of government; yet certainly the moving a committee of his own nomination, was a most extraordinary way of leaving the matter in the management of himself (Mr. Rice). Though he had been the proposer of this inquiry, he had never discussed it in any other way than by calling on government to do its duty. Not that he shrunk from any responsibility; but as this was a great public inquiry, and as it had now received the sanction of a committee, and was borne out by facts and documents, he did think that he might call upon the government for a more marked and earnest declaration of opinion than they had as vet given. He protested against the supposition, that this was to be considered as the charge of any individual member. It was the charge of the parliamentary commissioners, after a judicial inquiry; it was the charge of a select committee above stairs, and he was only the instrument, on the present occasion, of bringing the case under the notice of the House.
The motion was agreed to.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—LIEUTENANT-GENERAL OF THE ORDNANCE.—
On the order of the day for going into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. Humesaid, he had been pleased, and indeed every man in the House must have been pleased, with the promises held out in the Speech from the throne, as to economy and lightening the burthens of the people. But, however unpleasant it was to doubt the words of the throne, when those words were formally addressed

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to the House of Commons, he felt himself under the necessity of taking that disagreeable course. He had taken the trouble to select from royal speeches, one or two instances to show how little the declarations of ministers in such speeches were to be relied on. In 1817, after a speech from the throne abounding in promises of reduction in expenditure, the estimates for the year had been 13,000,00 l., and the actual disbursements 14,000,000 l., giving an expenditure over the estimate of 1,000,000 l.
In 1819, after promises of reduction in our naval and military establishments, the estimate was 14,300,000 l., and the disbursement 15,155,000 l. Again, in 1821, the estimate was 14,300,000 l., and the expenditure upwards of 15,000,000 l. In spite, therefore, of all the protestations of economy, the expenditure of 1821 was more than 200,000 l. greater than that of 1817. It was the duty, then, of the House to look, not to the sweet and honied words of ministers, but at the result of their measures. And this brought him to the Speech from the throne in the present session, upon which he was anxious to make one or two observations. The Speech declared, that the estimates of the year had been framed with every attention to economy. This was the self-same phrase which had gone through all the speeches for the last twenty years; and the House, from the experience of former sessions, would judge what value was to be attached to it. The hon. gentleman then proceeded with calculations intended to show, that the expenditure of the year ending Jan. 1822, exceeded that of the year 1817. But from general statement, he would come to particular instances. Let the House look at the recent appointment of lord George Beresford to the post of lieutenant-general of the Ordnance. Hon. members would recollect, that the charge of that department had increased from 400,000 l. to 1,200,000 l. a year; that the expense of the office in the Tower had risen from 16,000 l. a year to 48,000 l.: and that the pay of the lieut.-general of the Ordnance, instead of 1,100 l. a year, was now 1,950 l. How often had ministers declared their intention to bring down salaries as near as possible to the level of 1792! He had forbore to press the reduction of the lieut.-general of the Ordnance's salary last session, because it might have seemed severe upon tae then incumbent, sir Hildebrand Oakes. But
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who could ever have contemplated the giving the existing salary to any subsequently-appointed officer? If the House would look back to the 13th report of the commissioners of military inquiry in 1811, they would find that the office of lieutenant-general of the Ordnance was deemed unnecessary, provided the attention of the master-general of the Ordnance was duly given to his charge. There had certainly been a difference of opinion upon this point. Lord Moira had considered the office of lieutenant-general superfluous; lord Chatham had held it to be useful; the commissioners, on deliberation, had agreed with lord Moira. But, with that report upon the table of the House, and with the positive declaration of the commissioners that they considered time office unnecessary, upon what ground could ministers justify the filling it up in time of peace? He wished to guard himself against being supposed to cast any imputation upon the noble lord who now filled the office in question. He understood, indeed, that the noble lord had known nothing of the arrangement until the situation was pressed upon him. He believed the noble lord's merits as an officer were unrivalled; but allowing them to be so, they had not been forgotten by the country. He must just name one or two facts to guard himself aganist being told that this situation was given to the noble lord as a reward for his signal services. He rejoiced to see the noble lord enjoying all the honours and emoluments which he had received from the Portuguese government, and from that of his own country. The noble lord, on being raised to the peerage, had obtained a pension of 2,000 l. a year. He did not grudge that pension. He thought it right, that when the noble lord received his title, he should also receive something to enable hint to support it. But, besides this pension, the noble lord was governor of Jersey, an appointment which produced him 1,422 l. a year; he was a lieut.-general in the army, and a colonel of a regiment, situations which gave him at least 1,000 l. a year more; and, in addition to these, by the Gazette of three nights back, it appeared that he had taken a new appointment (the situation declared a useless one) of 1,950 l. a year. Notwithstanding the services of lord Beresford, he could not help believing that he was indebted for his appointment to this office, to the enormous influence possessed by

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his family. The time would shortly arrive, when he should show to the House the thousands and the tens of thousands of the public money, which was received by that family, and particularly from the revenues of the church in Ireland. There was exercised by them somewhere and somehow, an influence which he had no hesitation in saying ought to be diminished. For the present, he believed, he had shown enough to convince the House that ministers were bound to explain why, in contradiction of the recommendation of the committee of military inquiry for the abolition of the office of lieutenant-general of the Ordnance, they had thought fit to continue it. He should, therefore, submit the following motion, by way of amendment: "That, as the Commissioners of Military Inquiry have reported in their 13th Report in 1811, that in their belief, from the information given to them, the appointment of Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance was not essential to the constitution of that department, this House are of opinion, that the recent appointment of lord Beresford to that office is inconsistent with the professions of economy from the throne, and therefore request the fullest explanation as to the necessity of that appointment in time of peace, before they can grant any supply to his majesty."
Mr. Canningsaid, he would submit to the House, and to the hon. gentleman himself, whether the question was in such a shape at that moment as would justify his pressing it. He did not mean to say that it was not competent to the hon. gentleman to pursue the course he was now adopting; but it surely could not be advisable to resort to the extreme remedy of stopping the supplies, until he obtained an answer to his question, without having given previous notice of his intention to submit it to the consideration of the House. To say that it was unusual, he knew was only to urge an argument which the hon. gentleman was at liberty to reject or to admit. But the House would say, whether it would depart on this occasion from its established usage, and in the present stage of the business reprobate an appointment, which the hon. gentleman admitted was without the gravamen commonly attributed to appointments made from improper motives. The hon. gentleman had thought fit to ascribe lord Beresford's appointment to the parliamentary influence of his family. He would
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appeal to any man of candour, whether the rank and services of that gallant officer were not more probable reasons for his having been selected to fill an office, for which they had so eminently qualified him. It would be recollected with whom the nomination lay. It could not fail to occur to gentlemen, that the ties of mutual esteem, of long acquaintance, of long service together, of companionship in arms and in glory, must have had no small effect with the duke of Wellington. Considering these things, no candid mind would hesitate to admit, that other motives had operated upon the noble duke, than those suggested by the hon. gentleman; and that, whatever weight the parliamentary influence of lord Beresford's family might have had, if the appointment had been with ministers, those considerations could not apply to the duke of Wellington. But he would do more than offer reasoning on the subject: he would state two facts; first, that it had been offered to lord Hopetown, to whom the same objection did not apply; and 2ndly, it had been offered to lord Hill. So that lord Beresford, whose parliamentary influence the hon. gentleman would have it believed could command this office, came the third upon the list; and the same motives of fellowship and fitness for service, which had placed it within the choice of others, gave it at length to him. The selection of the two first persons must have been prompted by common motives; and yet the hon. gentleman would have it thought that the choice of a third arose from grounds not applicable to the other two. He was neither prepared nor inclined to enter upon the question of the necessity of the office. It had, however, the presumption in its favour which was derived from long practice. He did not know what case the hon. gentleman meant to submit to the House; but surely it could not be denied that previous notice was necessary. If the subject was to be discussed, it was fit that those persons should be prepared for it, whose duty it was to defend the appointment, if it was capable of defence. He took no shame to himself for being ignorant of the details of that department. It was enough for him at present to direct the attention of the House to these points—that there had been no previous discontinuance—that the appointment had been filled up in the usual course—that it had been given to a fit man, and bestowed by an authority which could be the least sus-

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pected of those corrupt motives which were supposed by the hon. gentleman to pervade every branch of the administration.
Mr. Broughamfelt himself obliged to oppose his hon. friend's motion. He did so with regret; but the question was one which it behoved the House to deliberate upon seriously; and as this could not be done without the assistance of the members of that department to whom it belonged to defend the appointment, he wished it should be postponed to a period when their presence could be ensured. It was far too important to be taken up by the House thus incidentally; and if any thing could tend to confirm him in the opinion, that it should be postponed to a more favourable opportunity, it was the line of defence adopted by the right hon. secretary. He had given very satisfactory reasons why lord Beresford had been chosen; but he had not given the shadow of a reason why the offer of the appointment had been made to any one. The question did not, and could not, apply personally to lord Beresford. No man could be more ready than he was to admit the services of that meritorious officer. Nothing could be more natural than that the duke of Wellington should offer this appointment to him, as well as to two others of his gallant companions in arms; but still the information was wanting, why the office was in existence to be offered to the one or the other. When the vacancy occasioned by the death of general Oakes offered an opportunity of putting an end to it, there could be no doubt that the country had a right to be informed, why that opportunity was not immediately seized upon. There was another objection, besides that of stopping the supplies, which occurred to him, against the further discussion of this subject at the present moment. It was not consistent with parliamentary usage. When information was required, it was obtained, either by an order that it should be laid before the House, when it was within the power of the House, or by an address to the throne; but it had never been the practice to ask for information, without stating by whom it ought to be granted. He should be glad if his hon. friend would postpone his motion for the present, giving, at the same time, notice of his intention to bring it before the House at an early opportunity.
Mr. Humesaid, that the House was in no way taken by surprise. Any gen-
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tleman who remembered what he had said, in 1821 and 1822, on this subject, must know that the vacancy was regarded as one never to be filled up. The information he asked might be furnished on Friday. The delay in granting the supplies would be only eight and forty hours. If the gentlemen on his side of the House intended to give up the subject in the way proposed, they might as well walk away from the House, and leave ministers to dispose as they would of the public money.
Sir R. Fergussonexpressed his esteem for lord Beresford's character, and his sense of his public services; but he felt that, on this occasion, private friendship ought to give way. He would therefore support the motion.
Mr. G. Bennetsupported the motion. He thought his hon. friend, was perfectly right in availing himself of every constitutional opportunity of pursuing his useful career. He wished the question to be fairly put, that it might be seen whether the House would support it or not.
Mr. Hutchinson,in rising to support the motion, would neither be understood to undervalue the merit of lord Beresford, nor to withhold from the government those supplies, which, at the present momentous crisis, were necessary for the dignity of the country. The motion was merely one for information; and he would not have it go abroad, that, at such a juncture, the House had neglected to support an inquiry, the object of which was to lessen the public burdens.
Mr. Abercrombyhad always been taught to consider, that it was one of their most valuable privileges to be able to stop the supplies. He therefore thought they ought not to call it into action, but upon the most important occasions. His hon. friend's motion stood upon strong grounds. He would suggest to him the propriety of disconnecting it from the question of supply, and of letting it stand upon its intrinsic merits.
Sir F. Burdettsaid:—I fully agree with what has fallen from my hon. friend who has just sat down. I think it quite clear that no beneficial results can arise, from a perseverance in the proposed amendment. I am prepared to support every proposition which has for its object an expedient reduction of the public expenditure; and I give to the hon. member for Aberdeen all the merit to which his resolute and unceasing attention to the

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public interest so justly entitle him. But, under the circumstances in which this country is placed with regard to foreign relations, I cannot accede to the amendment. What, Sir, shall I, with one voice, call upon the government to support the honour, and interest, and dignity of the realm, and with another, and at the interval of a few days, turn round upon that government and say—"I have called upon you to vindicate the national honour and dignity; but I at the same time withheld from you the means of supporting that honour or upholding that dignity. Sir, I cannot do this—I know it is the privilege of this House to stop the supply; but it is a privilege not to be used on ordinary occasions. The grievance which would call for such extraordinary interposition, must be not only acknowledged, but monstrous; and a sound discretion would not call for such a strong measure except under circumstances where any other redress was unavailable. I think that the hon. member for Aberdeen will best consult the success of the object he has in view, and the inclination of those who are usually inclined to support him, by not pressing a motion, from which no good can arise.
Mr. Humeconsented to withdraw his amendment. After which, the House went into the committee.