Sitting of 21 May 1822

IRISH PAYMENT OF RENT BILL.
Sir J. Newportrose to move for leave to bring in a bill "to authorize occupying tenants in Ireland to tender in part payment of rent receipts for grand jury and parochial assessments, subject to certain exceptions." This bill materially concerned the interests of a large portion of the people of Ireland, whose distresses it was calculated to relieve, as well as to place them in a greater degree of certainty as to the payments which they had to incur with their rent. The grand jury presentments in Ireland were peculiarly extensive and severely pressing in their' nature upon the occupying tenant. Soon after the Union, the Irish presentments did not exceed 400,000 l., and they amounted to 1,200,000 l., a sum always paid by the occupying tenant, one variable in its nature, and against which the tenant had no means of providing at the time he made his bargain with the landlord. It would be material to consider whether the latter ought not to bear some portion of this expense. He did not mean to meddle with existing contracts. The object of his bill was prospective, and only to affect future bargains. He thought the disbursements, though made in the first instance by the tenant, should be repayable to him by the landlord on the settlement for rent. It was most desirable in Ireland that the tenant should be placed in such a situation as to know exactly what sum he had to pay, and not be responsible for local payments of the kind he alluded to, in addition to his
722
After a short conversation, leave was given to bring in the bill.

IRISH CIVIL LIST.
Mr. Hume,moving for a return of all pensions, allowances and other expenses paid out of the Civil List of Ireland, observed, that he was extremely desirous of ascertaining how they had been augmented to so large an amount. The civil list of Ireland amounted in the first year to; 214,877 l. and the permanent charges on the consolidated fund, were 402,339 l.—He was aware that many compensations and allowances had been granted at the time of the Union, with little attention to economy, or consideration of the services for which such pensions were granted. It was necessary that the whole subject should be revised, and he could point out a mode by which an immediate, though a small, saving might be made to make a beginning with. In the list of pensions, and he should state that as an example of the little attention paid by the government to the expenditure in Ireland. He Saw that 200 l. was annually given to two individuals since 1726, on the conditions that the annuity should be continued until the principal sum of 2,000 l. were paid to them at once. Now, at 3 per cent the interest of 2,000 l. would be 60 l., and at five per cent 100 l., so that at least half the sum every year charged upon the public might be spared by paying the sum of 2,000 l. at once. Pensions in Ireland had been obtained in a very doubtful manner, and he thought that many of them would not bear inquiry. It might also be found, that a number of individuals held offices and at the same time received retired allowances for offices they had lost, or for others from which they had retired on superannuation. When the exchequers of England and Ireland were consolidated, pensions and allowances to the amount of, nearly 7,000 l. were granted to individuals whose services were no longer wanted in that office. A Mr. Crofton obtained an allowance of 1,000 l. a year, and now filled, as reported to him, (Mr. H.) some employment or place in the vice treasurer's office, with pensions for himself and other branches of his family amounting to near 1,000 l. a year more. A Mr. Mitchell was in the same predicament; he had three offices and retiring pensions which with his emoluments, were about 1,150 l. Out of eighteen individuals, there might be others who either ought to give up their places,

723
or their allowances; if they filled official situations their pensions might be relinquished, and the money saved to the public. He begged leave, while upon the subject of the Irish civil list, to notice an opinion promulgated by the noble marquis on a former night with so much confidence, that it was calculated, although contrary to all experience and sound policy, to produce a false impression out of doors. It was, that the civil list, being a contract with the Crown, for the king's life was not under the cognizance of the House. If so, why had the noble marquis himself come down in the year 1815, to the House, to claim and obtain and additional allowance for the civil list? If it were a contract, it must be equally binding on both parties. In the first year of the late reign the civil list was fixed at 800,000 l. but by the 17th Geo. III. c. 21 it was increased to 900,000 l. in 23rd Geo. 3rd. 950,000 l.; in 44th Geo. 3rd. 1,010,000 l.; in 50th Geo. 3rd. 1,020,000 l. in 52nd Geo. 3. c. 2 to 1,090,000 l. In fact, whenever the civil list was in difficulties and that more money was wanted, it was held not to be a binding contract, at least on the part of the sovereign. But he would submit to the noble marquis, and appeal to the House that such proceedings were not fair. As the parliament had the power, and in its liberality, had from time to time added to the allowances of the civil list, he (Mr. H.) thought it altogether unreasonable in the noble marquis to deny the power of the House to reduce the civil list, if they should think them too high. Besides the augmentations he had noticed, the pensions to the royal family, formerly paid out of the civil list, were now carried to the account of the consolidated fund; and in the course of the late reign the ministers had obtained from the House additional grants to the extent of 3,747,774 l.* The
*Debts of the Civil list paid by parliament since the accession of Geo. the 3rd. over and above the regular allowances of the civil list.

In 1769

£.513,511

—77

618,340

—84

60,000

—86

210,000

1802

990,053

—4

591,842

—5

10,458

—14

118,853

3,113,061

Regency expenses, viz. 52 Geo. 3, c. 8.

100,000

April 5, 1815, to pay off arrears

534,713

£3,747,774.

724
Crown had besides about one million from the droits of Admiralty, and near a million from. Other resources; and, on the whole, the Crown had obtained during, the last reign between 5 and 6 millions beyond the amount specified in the supposed contract. It, was his intention also to move for a return of the pensions and allowances in Ireland, not paid out of the civil list, as well as for a return of the manner in which 20,000 l. voted by the House or civil contingencies in Ireland had been expended as there, were some rather extraordinary charges under that head. He saw that 637 l. 7s 11 d. had been paid to sir C. Flint, for transmitting the public acts of the session, and 1,602 l. for prosecutions of the Bank of Ireland. These matters deserved inquiry, as well as the application, in 1819, of 10,000 l. as secret service money; and in 1820 and 1821, of still larger sums under the same head, of which no account had been rendered. He also found, that out of the civil contingencies, 2,910 l. and 660 l. were paid to the secretaries of the lord lieutenant; whether for salaries or on what account he did tint know, but he saw no reason why any Such payments should be made to them from that source.
The Marquis of Londonderrywas surprised, after it had been intimated to the hon. gentleman, that no opposition would be made to his motion, that he have brought forward such a variety of details, which no man could he prepared to answer on the sudden, which were calculated to produce false and painful impressions—and which could answer, no practical purpose. With reference to the question the hon. gentleman had again raised on the contract of the civil list, he (Lord L.) contended, that it was a contract of the strictest kind, under the sanction of the law. It was true, that like all contracts, it could he avoided by consent of the parties; and whenever the Crown came to parliament, the whole question was thus opened to revision. But the Crown had never said—"give me back my hereditary duties;" and the public had been a gainer during the whole of the late reign, by an arrangement made at the beginning of it, to the extent of eight or ten millions.
Mr. Bennetsaid, that constitutional authorities were decidedly against the position of the noble marquis. As to the Crown having been a loser by the contract, if the public had not been saddled

725
with many of the burthens formerly borne by the Crown, it might have been a gainer. As it was, the Crown had had the advantage.
Mr. Goulbournwas confident, that the hon. member for Aberdeen was mistaken in several of the statements he had made.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose to do justice to Mr. Crofton, who had indeed a retired allowance of 1,000 l. a year, and who on the consolidation of the two exchequers (having served in that of Ireland for 30 or 40 years), requested to be allowed to fill the office of Irish secretary to the chancellor of the exchequer, without any salary. He had done so, and had received nothing for his most useful and valuable services; thereby saving the public 400 l. a year.
Sir J. Newportfelt himself bound to bear testimony to the talents of Mr. Crofton in the department to which he had so long belonged.
Mr. Peelhad been for six years connected by official ties with Mr. Crofton, and assured the hon. member for Montrose, that he was completely mistaken in his assertions. He was also misinformed regarding the secretaries of the lord lieutenant, who received nothing from the civil contingencies.
Mr. Humesaid, he had spoken Mr. Crofton, only as one out of eighteen; and if he was mistaken, the return, when produced, would set him right. If the secretaries of the lord lieutenant did not receive the sums he had mentioned from the civil contingencies, he apprehended it would found that they did obtain them from the civil list, or from the consolidated fund.
The motion was agreed to.