Sitting of 25 March 1822

PETITION FROM CAPTAIN ROMEO.
Lord J. Russellrose to present a petition from an individual whose claims had already been before the House. The petition was from captain Francis Romeo. He was a native of Calabria, had been forced to enter the service of Murat as a private soldier, and was raised some time after to some subordinate rank; but with this circumstance the case had nothing to do. He was employed some time afterwards by the British commanders in Sicily, in a mission of a delicate nature. It was well known that the Queen of Naples was plotting the overturn of the British power in Sicily, in order to aid that of her relative Napoleon. To defeat those plans, captain Romeo was employed, and, according to the testimony of the commanders of the British force in that country, his services had been of considerable advantage to the British interests. For these he had been promoted to a commission in the British service in that country. In 1816, on the restoration of the king of Naples, this gentleman, with the British uniform on his back, and a British passport in his pocket, was seized in the streets of Naples, and thrown into prison. It was said on a former occasion, that he had escaped from prison without trial; but the fact was not so. It was true he was not tried; but, without even the form of a trial, he was transported to Alexandria, in Egypt, and there left in a state of destitution. The whole of his sufferings the petitioner attributed to the services he had rendered to the government of this country. This statement was corroborated by the certificates of lord W. Bentinck, lieut. general Maitland, and of the late lieut. general Campbell; and from these it might be inferred, that all those who were known by the Neapolitan government to have been attached to

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British interests were treated with a most unrelenting severity. On presenting his claim to the government here, several promises were made to him, that he should receive a pecuniary compensation, and a passport which would protect him abroad. Some trifle had been granted to him, which he had commuted for 300 l. Now, was a person who had rendered such important services, to remain almost starving in the streets of London. He was satisfied it was a case which deserved the attention of the House, and a reconsideration by government. Having said thus much on the subject of the petition, he would offer a few remarks on some recent occurrences in Italy. It was well known that, up to 1813, it had been the constant policy of the government of this country, to unite all the nations of the continent against the power of Buonaparte. No pains or expense were spared to induce the powers of the several countries to throw off the yoke of Napoleon. But amongst all those to whom such offers were made, there were none to whom greater inducements were held out than the Italians. They had severely felt the iron yoke of Buonaparte; but with them, whatever were its disadvantages, it had this effect—it gave a spirit of enterprize and bravery to the inhabitants, a great portion of whom were inured to arms, and had become disciplined soldiers. They had, besides, all the advantages to be derived from the encouragement of letters, and the opening of so many schools of public instruction. But those very circumstances contributed to show more fully to many, the despotism under which they lived, and gave them a desire to overthrow it. Unfortunately, however, when the change was made, their condition was not bettered. Little or no attention was paid to their desire for liberty. Indeed, a report went abroad, that when the Milanese applied in 1814 to the noble lord opposite, to be put under the protection of Great Britain, the noble lord replied to them, that however the liberty enjoyed by this country might be fitted for it, it would be unfit for the Italian states. Be that as it might, certain it was that Italy was given up to the dominion of Austria almost without any condition. To show how likely the Italians were to benefit by the change, he would mention, that all public instruction was now prohibited in Italy, except such as was given by the jesuits and another religious order.
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The system of mutual instruction, or teaching in private schools, was altogether abolished. The adoption of such a system seemed as if it was the intention of the Austrian power, to throw Italy hack into the darkness and barbarous ignorance in which she was involved in the middle ages. As a proof of the liberal principles upon which the people of that part of the world were governed, he would mention a circumstance which had recently come to his knowledge. Three persons were lately condemned by the Supreme Court of Justice at Turin, two of them for practices of an alleged treasonable nature, but the crime of the third was thus described by the Court itself—"having a propensity to the constitutional system." And what did the House think was the sentence which this High Court of Justice, awarded against the person having this propensity?—that he should be sent to the gallies for life! Another case was that of a marquis, a subject of the papal territory, who was arrested at Venice by order of the Austrian government, and his papers seized, and from suspicions of his principles, created by the contents of those papers, he was sentenced to death; but this punishment was commuted to ten years imprisonment. To form some idea of the humanity of this commutation, he would only mention, that the imprisonment was to be in a solitary cell, loaded with irons, deprived of pen, ink, and paper, and of all communication with his friends, and allowed to walk in the open air for only half an hour every day. This unfortunate nobleman, at the time of passing this sentence, had a young wife and two children; the wife at the same time very near her confinement. These were some of the blessings of that liberal system by which Austria governed those whom this country had helped to put into her power! But her cruelty was not confined to her own dominions; for she had contrived, that the unfortunate persons who had taken refuge at Geneva, after the revolution of the last year, should be driven from thence; and they were wandering about without a home or a country, to which to look for protection. These were some of the results of that alliance against the liberty of man, which had been blasphemously called "holy." Was this a system to which the government of this country ought, in the slightest degree, to lend its support. Ought we, by any aid or countenance, to sanc-

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tion attempts which were thus daily made to put an end to civil liberty, and to extinguish the light of freedom in Europe?
Mr. Wilmotthought the noble lord had overlaid his case, by indulging in a variety of observations which had nothing to do with the petitioner. This question had been already fully debated, and the noble lord would remember, that it was never pretended that captain Romeo had rendered no services. It had, however, been maintained that his services had been duly remunerated. It was to be remembered also, that though captain Romeo might describe himself as a principal, he was, in fact, but a subordinate agent. For what he had done he had been rewarded by a captain's appointment in a Calabrese corps, to consist of 700 men, which had never been embodied. When the war ended, he had been dismissed with a gratuity and two months pay. It was denied by the Neapolitan government, that the transportation of which captain Romeo complained, was the consequence of his connexion with England; and not only was this denied, but the specific causes of that step being taken were distinctly stated, and a series of acts detailed which it had been thought right thus to visit. The noble lord stated that which was calculated to mislead the House when he spoke of captain Romeo having been arrested while wearing the British uniform. If such were the fact, captain Romeo was wearing that uniform when he had no right to wear it. It was said, that the 300 l. which captain Romeo had received was a very inadequate sum to be given in lieu of 50 l. per annum. But it was to be borne in mind, that the 50 l. per annum was not granted for life, but only for a certain period. Though he had been refused an English passport for Naples, he had been offered one that would have taken him to Spain or any country in Europe; but the government had refused to give him one which might make it appear that he had any authority from this country. He had the fullest authority for stating that captain Romeo had not suffered on account of his attachment to England. He did not know that it was now stated, but if not, it had beer in a former petition, that the captain property had been confiscated. This was not true. No such confiscation had take place. His property, when sold, had been sold for his own benefit. He should not object to the petition being laid on
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the table; but certainly he conceived any further proceeding upon it unnecessary.
Sir J. Mackintoshsaid, that whatever doubts the hon. gentleman might entertain upon the subject, the object of his noble friend was quite clear—to make an appeal to the honour and generosity of the British government. Captain Romeo had rendered eminent services to the British army in a most dangerous situation; and for those services he had been most inadequately rewarded. It was admitted that the individual had rendered valuable services, the main point contended for being that he had acted, not in a principal, but in a subordinate capacity. Supposing this to have been the case, recollecting the nature of the plot which he had discovered, the remuneration had been wholly disproportionate. On this question, however, the hon. gentleman had differed essentially from the officers at that time in command of the British troops in Sicily. Lord W. Bentinck had borne testimony to the "important services intrusted to captain Romeo;" and general Maitland declared, that "it was chiefly by means of captain Romeo that such evidence was obtained as counteracted the mischief which the open enemies and treacherous friends of the British army were plotting against it." General Campbell's certificate was equally clear and decisive. The conspiracy discovered by captain Romeo was of a most formidable kind. The very ringleaders of it were, nevertheless, at this moment enjoying the favour of the court of Naples; nay, the hon. gentleman was too well acquainted with facts to deny that it had reached even the councils and the family of the king of Naples. After the detection of such a system of the blackest treachery, was it worthy of a great and generous nation to talk of an annuity of 50 l. as an adequate compensation for such a disclosure? The hon. gentleman had, however, denied that captain Romeo was exiled and his property confiscated on account of this discovery; and his assertion was founded upon information obtained from Naples. This was nothing less than calling upon the country to discredit the assertions of four gallant British officers on the authority of the present Neapolitan ministers, who were themselves conspirators against the British army. It was strange, indeed, to L institute such a comparison any where, t but it was unnatural and monstrous to

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attempt it in a British House of Commons. He was anxious, for the character of the country, that this stigma should he wiped away; and he took this mode of pressing upon the king's government, that it well became the rank and reputation which Great Britain held among the nations of the world, to give this gentleman a reward more adequate to the sufferings he had endured, and the services he had rendered. Surely his exile and his poverty, both occasioned by his attachment to this country, were no reasons for taking advantage of his wants and his powerlessness. It was of course to be expected that the Neapolitan government would insist that the charge on which the property of captain Romeo had been seized, was unconnected with the discoveries he had made in Sicily: but the four British generals were satisfied that he had been persecuted solely for the services he rendered to this country. It was unquestionably better, in a case like the, present, to err on the side of liberality, than to allow it to be supposed throughout Europe, that the British nation had been guilty of a piece of such miserable penuriousness.
Mr. Goulburnwas fully convinced, that captain Romeo had received a reward adequate to the nature of the services he had performed. Comparing his claims with those of other individuals, and the remuneration he had obtained with what had been granted to them, there was no disproportion calling for the interposition of the House. The reward assigned to him was that of a subordinate agent, and to those of higher rank little more had been given, although they were more importantly concerned, and had stronger testimonials in their favour. It was to be observed, that while captain Romeo was with the army, employed in collecting and giving information, be received his regular pay; but, long subsequent to the termination of these transactions, he made a demand for losses sustained to the extent of 2,500 l. Was it to be supposed that the general officers commanding the British army would not have regularly allowed and paid these demands as they occurred, had they really arisen? They had not done so; and the inference, therefore, was strongly against the justice of the claims. With regard to the annuity of 50 l. a-year, it was to be recollected, that it was in no respect certain or permanent, and when he (Mr. G.)
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fixed upon 300 l. as the price of it, when captain Romeo wished to leave this country, he had deemed it an ample commutation. Having received the money, a difficulty arose about the passport, captain Romeo insisting that he ought to receive such a passport as was only given to British subjects. If he had intended to break off the negotiation upon this ground, it would have been proper that he should first have returned the money. Every possible facility, as far as respected a passport, was offered, had captain Romeo wished either to go to France or Spain; and a passage to Malta was offered to him. He believed that captain Romeo had not been banished on account of the transactions in Sicily; and that his property had not been confiscated. He believed this, not on the testimony of the Neapolitan ministers, but upon information obtained from the British ambassador. Under all the circumstances, he was of opinion, that this government had dealt honourably, justly, and generously by the petitioner.
Sir R. Wilsonsaid, that several individuals had been arrested and put to death for treason in Sicily, in consequence of the discovery by captain Romeo of a conspiracy, the object of which was the destruction of the British army. He would ask, whether the frustrating of a conspiracy, which had justified the execution of the head of the police, did not call for a larger recompense than 300 l.?
Mr. Hutchinsonasked, whether any case at all parallel could be mentioned, where the remuneration was so insignificant? Captain Romeo had endured an imprisonment of five months, and was then banished to Egypt; and, after his property in Calabria had been confiscated, he was rewarded for all he had done and undergone by a wretched pittance of 50 l. a year! This, too, after the unequivocal testimony in his favour, contradicted only by what our ambassador had been able to collect from the ministry at Naples. When captain Romeo complained to ministers, what had they done? They had referred him back to that government from which he had previously received the most cruel treatment. How did he prove his case? By the best of all evidence—the evidence of British officers. After remaining here for some time, he demanded a passport, to enable him to return to Naples; because, at that period, the friends of liberty were at the helm of

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the Neapolitan government. Ministers refused to give him the passport he sought for. The noble marquis gave him a passport to Malta, and left him to make his way from that island in the best manner he could. The conduct which had been exercised towards him was, throughout, one continued tissue of deceit.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that his view of the facts of the case, which he had detailed on former occasions, had not been in the slightest degree altered by any thing that had occurred that evening. One thing at least he was glad to observe on this occasion; namely, that the character of a police officer was more agreeable in the eyes of gentlemen opposite, when he performed his functions abroad, than when he was called on to execute them at home. There appeared to be quite a rush of gentlemen anxious to speak in favour of that character. Captain Romeo was an officer of that description, and, it was alleged, had performed services, under the observation of those military officers, whose names lied that night been quoted. He complained that his services had not been requited; but he would satisfy the house that captain Romeo had not been treated harshly by this government. Now, much as he respected lord W. Bentinck, and disinterested as he believed the declaration of general Campbell to have been, still it was evident that their statement was not founded on inquiry, but was rather matter of opinion. Opposed to their representation, was the statement of sir W. A'Court, the English ambassador at Naples, who had thoroughly investigated all the circumstances of the case; and, from all the information he could obtain, he had come to the conclusion, that the statements laid before the British government by captain Romeo were not well founded. He learned that captain Romeo had sustained no persecution, and that he had been removed from Calabria on account of acts which he had done subsequently to the British troops being in possession of Sicily. Now, it could not be expected that this government was to demand protection for captain Romeo, against the consequences of any acts to which he was a party after the British troops had evacuated Sicily. Sir. W. A'Court had examined all the facts minutely, and was decidedly opposed to general Campbell. The latter gave a loose opinion, that he believed this indivi-
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dual had been treated harshly on account of services which he had rendered to the British troops. This was strenuously denied by sir W. A'Court. With respect to the reward being inadequate to the services of captain Romeo, he would observe, that such a charge applied solely to the officers in question, lord W. Bentinck, and general Campbell. And he must be allowed to say, that, of all the errors they could possibly commit, want of liberality to those who had rendered service to the British army was the least probable. Now, if they had conceived that captain Romeo was not properly paid, they had the military chest at their command, and lord W. Bentinck had only to draw for any sum which appeared to be proper to meet those claims of service. Captain Romeo left the police of the army, and resided in the Neapolitan dominions after the British troops left Sicily; and it was not till two or three years subsequently that he removed from those dominions. It was said, that he could not have made his claim on this government sooner, because he had been sent to Egypt; but the fact was, that he remained for a considerable time in his own country, and did not apparently think of coming here. At length, he came forward with a claim for 2,500 l., which sum, he said, he had laid out in the service of the British government. He was asked for particulars: and then it appeared, on his showing, that the greater part of this money was given to the mistress of a French general, for extricating him from prison; but, was it not extraordinary that he did not carry his claim to the officers under whose observation be was said to have performed certain services? Besides, he should be glad to know how an officer of police, attached to the army, arid on a very small scale of pay, could procure so large a sum of money and keep its expenditure a secret from lord W. Bentinck and general Campbell, although that expenditure was on account of the British government. Surely, if these officers were convinced that such a sum had actually been expended on account of the British government, they would have taken proper cognizance of it. But, when captain Romeo came here and made his statement, he could not avoid looking at his case as a very weak one. If he said any thing unpleasant to captain Romeo's feelings, he was sorry for it; but his own

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conduct had forced it from him. He could not think of going beyond the usual scale of reward on an occasion like this; and to give a reward to captain Romeo—which it was impossible to generalize, would be exceedingly unfair. If he had a just claim, which was not paid in Italy, he could only attribute the circumstance to some extraordinary oversight on the part of captain Romeo. Either he had forgotten to bring this charge of 2,500 l. forward, or else the officers who had been so often mentioned neglected to investigate it; and the latter proposition he could not credit. As to the reward which had been conferred here, his right hon. friend had made out an unanswerable case in proof of its sufficiency.
Mr. Humesaid, the ground which the noble lord took last year, when this subject was introduced to the House, was diametrically opposite to that on which he depended this night. He (Mr. Hume) had contended last year, and would still contend, that captain Romeo performed certain services of a most important nature, at the time the British troops were in possession of Sicily. That fact was not denied; but the noble marquis and the right hon. gentleman both contended, that there was no claim for remuneration. How stood the case? This individual had performed services which the authorities which had been quoted declared to have been useful; and he demanded a recompense for those services. Every person who at that time entered the British service in Sicily had the pledge of the British government, that they would be protected from the government of Naples. Under this pledge, captain Romeo proceeded to Naples, where he was arrested and lost his property; and on account of that loss, he applied to this government for relief. Last year, when he stated these facts, the noble marquis read a letter from sir W. A'Court, in which he stated, "that captain Romeo, after being arrested under the charge of committing some offence against the Neapolitan government, had escaped from prison." At that time, he (Mr. H.) happened to have in his possession, a letter from the Swedish consul, in which it was stated, that he had given captain Romeo a passport to go to Egypt, by direction of the Neapolitan government. This was the escape which captain Romeo had effected; and, when one of the noble lord's facts was so grossly erroneous, it might be inferred,
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that others were equally incorrect. Captain Romeo was tried and condemned to death, on account of his fidelity to the British government. In this emergency, he had recourse to bribery to save his life, and the sum of 2,500 l. was given to the mistress of a French general, in order to effect that object. Captain Romeo was afterwards carried away from Italy by force, and he was left entirely destitute in a foreign country. With much difficulty he got to Malta, and he came as soon as possible from Malta to this country. His case was represented to the British government, and 50 l. a year were granted to him, as a temporary allowance, pending the decision of his claims. At length, tired out by the delays of office, he wished, when a favourable opportunity presented itself, to be landed in Italy, under the protection of a British passport. The government was pledged to grant him such a passport as he demanded; but the Foreign office refused to comply with his request. His case was altogether one of great hardship. In his opinions captain Romeo ought to have an allowance for life. Of this he was sure, that ministers frequently gave the public money away to much less deserving objects.
Mr. Forbesthought this was a case which deserved the attention of the British government. There was one circumstance connected with the situation of captain Romeo, which he begged leave to mention, that if it were not true, ministers might contradict it, and set the poor man's mind at ease. He was at present under the greatest apprehension that he would be arrested under the Alien act, and sent out of the country. On Friday last, some persons, who stated themselves to be police officers, had called at the house in which he rented a miserable garret at the rate of 4s. a week, and declared that they were sent to arrest him. He (Mr. F.) had assured him it was impossible that those persons could have been employed for that purpose; but he was most anxious to have the fact officially stated. This, he thought, was one of those cases in which ministers were penny-wise, as compared with others in which they were pound foolish. He had been assured that a large pension had recently been conferred on the lady of a meritorious general officer. He would not, however, state the circumstances at present, which he certainly would, if captain Romeo's case were neglected.

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He had given up his pension of 50 l. for the trifling sum of 300 l. when an opportunity to go abroad had offered itself to him. That pension of 50 l. should, at least, be restored, to prevent him from starving in the streets. Was it consistent with British liberality to refuse him an adequate provision, when three British generals bore witness to his services? He had not six-pence in his pocket at present. A subscription for his relief had been set on foot some time ago, to which several respectable gentlemen affixed their names; but he had not experienced the same liberality which had distinguished other subscriptions
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, he feared the credulity of the hon. gentleman had been imposed upon. With respect to an order for sending this person out of the country under the Alien act, the alarm was totally groundless. He hoped the hon. gentleman would mention the case to which he alluded, and which he seemed to hold out as a threat for extorting a favourable reception of the petition.
Mr. Forbessaid, he would then ask, whether a pension of 800 l. per annum had not been lately settled upon lady Torrens, the wife of sir H. Torrens. It had been stated to him, that that gallant general had some time ago resigned the situation which he held, and taken one with less duties and an inferior salary, and that, in consequence, a pension to the amount he had stated, had been granted to lady Torrens.
Mr. Arbuthnotsaid, it was certainly true that a pension had been granted to lady Torrens. It was in the knowledge of the House that the disposal of pensions to a certain amount formed a part of the constitutional power of the Crown. Sir H. Torrens was well known to the country; and he thought that a pension granted to his lady, as an acknowledgment of his services, would never be considered an improper exercise of the royal prerogative.
Lord J. Russellthought that the testimony of the British generals ought to outweigh that of the Neapolitan government. He was quite sure that the government could have no intention of enforcing the provisions of the Alien act against the petitioner; and he did hope that they would reconsider his case.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, it was extraordinary, if there had been so large an outlay, as 2,500 l. that captain
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Romeo should not have brought forward his claims in 1818 and 1819. It was the last thing that would have entered his mind to apply the Alien act to the present case.
The petition was ordered to be printed.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
The order of the day was read for going into a committee of supply, to consider further of the Ordnance Estimates. On the question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair,"
Mr. Creeveysaid, he should take that opportunity of doing what He had done last session e namely, of directing the attention of the House to a particular item in the Ordnance Estimates, which ought not to be included in theme die alluded to a sum of 4,670 l. 14 s. 6d. included in these Estimates, for the repair of the fortifications of Barbadoes. Now, the House must be aware, that there was a fund expressly provided for this purpose, by an act passed in the year 1663, imposing a duty of 4½ per cent on certain colonial produce, for the express purpose of furnishing a fund for repairing the fortifications of the island. Instead of being applied, however, to this purpose, the fund had been divided in pensions among persons of the higher orders, including gentlemen, ladies, and children. The act of 1663 had been solemnly recognized by the act of 1st of Anne, and directions were then given by the Queen, for applying the fund forthwith to the purpose for which it was raised. All this was admitted to be true, and the only answer attempted to be given was, that it had become the practice to give away the, money to people of fashion. He really thought it high time to abolish this practice. When the country was labouring under the greatest distress; when the sovereign had felt the necessity of giving up a portion of his income; when they, were waging war with clerks, in the bill now passing through the House, for the sake of reducing the public expenditure, it was too much to call upon the people of this country to pay a sum of 1,670 l. for the purpose of repairing the fortifications in Barbadoes, when there was a sum provided by act of parliament for this express purpose, which sum was admitted to be given away in pensions and sinecures to persons of the higher orders. It was his intention to bring forward a specific motion on this subject

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after the holidays; but he could not let pass this opportunity of moving, "That it be an instruction to the Committee to examine whether the duties of 4½per cent, raised in the Island of Barbadoes are adequate to discharge the sum of 4,670 l. 14 s. 6d. which is comprised in the Ordnance Estimates of the present year, for repairs of Forts in the said Island."
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, was certainly competent to the hon. gentleman to make the present motion, with a view of entering his protest against the principle of the particular vote on the Journals. He thought, however, it would be more convenient, both to the hon. gentleman and to the House, not to discuss the question now, but to reserve his observations till the particular vote came before the committee in the estimates, or when he brought forward his promised motion on the subject.
Mr. Humesaid, that the instruction ought in all fairness to be allowed by the noble lord. It was only to the extent of desiring the attention of the committee to it. The committee could dispose of it as they might think proper. On that ground he should oppose the present motion.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that the committee of supply might leave out a particular vote; but it was not within its province to divide upon a general question of colonial policy.
The House divided: For the Instruction, 22; Against it, 62.

List of the Minority.

Bernal, R.

Newport, sir J.

Blake, sir F.

Phillips, G.

Belgrave, lord

Phillips, G. R.

Barrett, S. B. M.

Ricardo, D.

Butterworth, J.

Smith, hon. R.

Davies, col.

Western, C.

Fergusson, sir R. C.

Williams, W.

Kennedy, T. F.

Whitbread, S.

Jervoise, G. P.

Wilson, sir R.

James, W.

TELLERS.

Leycester, R.

Creevey, T.

Martin, J.

Hume, J.

Monck, J. B.

The House having resolved itself into the committee,
Mr. Wardproceeded to move the Ordnance Estimates. The sum required was 1,244,000 l. The grant was composed of five divisions—the ordinary, the extraordinary, the unprovided for expenses, and the superannuations, civil and military. The charge upon the first was 473,436 l., being 74,329 l. less than last year; upon
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the second, it was 292,744 l., being 21,620 l. more than last year. The third was 9,884 l., being 30,457 l. less than last year. The military superannuations, every charge inclusive, were 6,048 l. more than last year, being 319,751 l.: and the civil superannuations gave also an increase of 9,325 l., being 51,552 l.; but the rise in the two last items was necessarily consequent upon the diminutions in the body of the estimates, seeing that those diminutions arose out of reduction of offices. The article of Ireland was 96,629 l. being 15,207 l. less than last year; and the total charge amounted to 1,244,000 l.: deduct a presumed credit of 44,000 l. for sales of old stores, lands, buildings, &c., and the sum to be voted was 1,200,000 l., which was a larger vote by 105,000 l. than the vote of last year; but as the credit taken this year, 44,000 l., was 188,000 l. less than that of last year, 232,000 l., the actual difference between the Ordnance expenditure of 1821 and 1822 was a saving in the present year of 83,000 l.—Having stated, then, the amount of reduction, his next object was, to committee how that reduction had been effected. It had been obtained upon two branches—both upon the civil and the military departments—and the saving was chiefly in the ordinary estimate; upon the extraordinary, indeed, there was an excess, which would be accounted for. The right hon. gentleman then went into a detail of changes which had been effected. By the reduction of offices in the Tower and in Pallmall establishments, there was a real saving (upon a charge of 43,000 l. in the last year) of 6,200 l. in the present; the nominal saving was 7,000 l., but a portion of it was created by transfers from the ordinary to the extraordinary; on the contingent expenses of the Tower and Pall-mall, there was also a diminution of 1,900 l. There was a further deduction, upon all situations at home and abroad of 7,381 l.; but that sum, though reduced upon the division "ordinary," was not an entire saving upon the total of estimate. In the article of ordinary repairs there was a decrease of 2,300 l.: the whole amount of saving upon the civil ordinary expenditure would be 24,343 l.; that saving arose out of the reduction of offices, persons in offices, and salaries of persons in offices; and when the committee heard that the number of persons employed in the civil service was more than 100 out of 500 less in the present year than in the last,

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they would confess that government had not been idle in its retrenchments. Now, the number of persons in the civil Ordnance department, from the master-general to the lowest clerk, being 385 (in the last year they had been 500), if that state were compared with the state of 1792, the difference would appear to be in favour of the present year; the number in.1792, independent of Ireland and the it many colonies since added to this country by conquest, was 359; and, allowing for those then non-existent services 55, tai number would become 414, being a balance of 29 in favour of the year 1822. The committee would believe that great pains and attention had been requisite to effect such reductions. It was an irksome duty for the head of a department to reduce the emoluments of persons who had long been in office; and nothing but an absolute sense of duty to the House and to the country could have enabled such officers to go as far as they had gone. The right hon. member then proceeded to observe upon his having promised many of the savings effected in his address upon the estimates of last year. It might, perhaps, be asked why the reductions had not at once taken place last year, or even before. The truth was, that the reductions had then been in contemplation; but it was not the work of a moment to judge of then probable convenience or effect. The master-general bad, in fact, contemplated a total change in the constitution of the civil offices of his department: he wished to reduce the expensive offices of the clerks of the cheque, and the clerks of the survey; and, after looking himself completely through the subject, after having had the constitution and almost the particular detail of every duty laid before him, he had resolved to make an arrangement for the reduction of those offices. The right hon. member then went into a description of the course by which the business of the cheque and survey was proposed to be carried on. A still more Considerable reduction than that at present, effected was contemplated as years elapsed. The master-general was unwilling to take more from men who had been, some thirty and some fifty years in their situations, than the percentage deducted from all civil offices through the state; but, as soon as the holding of the present incumbents expired, fresh officers, at reduced rates of salary would be appointed; and the amount of civil expendi-
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ture, now standing at 130,000 l., would probably sink to about 75,000 l. It would be evident to the committee; that the arrangements already stated would cast a considerable increase of business upon the board; but notwithstanding that fact, it was farther in contemplation to throw two great civil departments, which had often been observed upon in the House the barrack department and the storekeeper's department—under the superintendance of the Ordnance. The scheme at present was in its infancy, and government was not prepared to say when it could take effect; but, upon investigation of the whole system, they had come to the determination, that the master general of the Ordnance, without any superintending officer, and merely by the assistance of the necessary number of clerks, would be enabled to perform the duty. At the same time he felt it necessary to say, that he only wished the departments might be as ably managed as they were under the gentlemen who now conducted them.—He now came to the savings in the military branch of ordinary expenditure. The committee would see that almost all the regular pay of the military was charged upon the ordinary expenditure; and he had to congratulate the committee on this part of his subject, upon an improvement in the military structure of one portion of the Ordnance service, which was solely attributable to the genius and activity of the master-general. The improvement to which he alluded was one which had taken place in the corps of gunner drivers. Lord Mulgrave had projected and commenced a change in the constitution of that corps, but the duke of Wellington had carried the scheme to perfection; and the proposal of the master-general was this—he would cut away altogether the officers of the drivers, and mix the men in due proportions in the companies of artillery. By that arrangement, the drivers would be under the immediate command and inspection of the officers who fought the guns, instead of standing as they did at present in a kind of anomalous situation, commanded by one set of officers in barracks and stable, and by another set in the field; 300 men (and 100 from St. Helena made 400) would be reduced; and in future all recruits would be enlisted to serve as gunners as well as drivers, which would obviate the existing arrangement of division into two distinct corps

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altogether. The immediate effect of the above stated alteration would be a saving of the whole charge for the drivers, 17,590 l.; but as some small addition would be created in the subsistence of those regiments in battalions to which the men might be drafted, the nett reduction ought to be stated perhaps at 16,000 l. On the estimate for the corps of engineers there was an increase since last year of 790 l.; upon that for the sappers and miners the increase was something under 100 l.; the total military reduction came to 16,000 l. some hundreds; and the military state, therefore, comparing the present year with the year 1792, would show a like advantage in favour of the present year: we had, allowing for Ireland and the colonies, 90 men less employed than in the year 1792, with the farther benefit of having now a relief of 250 on the seas for the service of our foreign possessions, while in 1792 we had no relief at all. There had been a small increase in the ordinary, by transfers from the extraordinary charge. There was a sum of 2,200 l. fur labourers—a mass of labourers formerly paid under the general head of Tower contingencies, being now carried to account under the different heads of the stations where they were employed; there was a further charge for a split item of stationery, 2,700 l., and another of 2,624 l. for the field train. Another charge transferred into the ordinary was for clerks in stores upon the West India stations. Among charges transferred into the extraordinary division, was one considerable one of 16,000 l. for barrack furniture: that now appeared under the general head "barracks" in the extraordinary; and there were other circumstances which led to an excess in that branch of the expenditure. The first of those articles was the cost of erecting a dam or sea-bank at Demerara. It was hoped that the colony would eventually be able to defray the expense of the dam; and, in that case government would repay the amount to the Ordnance department, but at present it stood in the charge of extraordinaries: the whole cost of the work was estimated at about 23,000 l.; but 10,000 l. was taken as the expense actually incurred in the year.—The right hon. gentleman then proceeded to state, that the effect of various articles contributing to swell the extraordinary charge, produced an excess upon that charge of about 21,000 l.; and after a few cursory remarks upon the
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state of the extra pay, he declared that he thought it unnecessary, unless called upon by questions from hon. members, to occupy the time of the committee any farther upon the ordinary and extraordinary branches of the estimate. He now came to the unprovided-for expense; and there he trusted he did not speak too confidently when he said that he anticipated the approval of the committee. The unprovided-for charge, which was 9,884 l. in the present year, had been 40,311 l. in the last year, and 60,000 l. in some years preceding. Under the auspices of the surveyor-general, to whose intelligence and activity the service was much indebted, a reduction in the Irish expenditure had also been effected to the amount of 15,207 l.; the names of the persons reduced, and the amounts of their salaries, would be found detailed in the estimates. He sat down with moving, "That 35,843 l. 17 s. 8d. be granted for defraying the salaries to the master-general, clerks, &c. belonging to the Office of Ordnance, and employed at the Tower and Pall-Mall."
Mr. Humeadmitted, that the officers of the Ordnance department had been active in their inquiries, but he was yet unsatisfied with the quantity of reduction effected. He would state his own view of what he thought might have been done, and would then leave the committee to judge between it and that proposed by the right hon. gentleman. Though one or two of the changes which had been effected appeared to him to be likely to produce a beneficial result, he thought that the board for the barrack department was kept up at a very heavy and unnecessary expense; and he should therefore make a motion to get rid of it altogether. He should submit to the committee the expenses of the Ordnance department at different periods, in order to enable it to decide what they ought to be at the present moment, by comparing them with what they had been upon former occasions. He should take the year 1817 as one period, and the year 1796 as the other, and in his view of the Ordnance expenses in those years he should leave out of consideration the amount of stores, and also the charges not provided for by parliament. In 1796, the ordinaries for Ireland amounted, to 22,000 l.—for Great Britain the ordinaries amounted to 121,000 l., and the extraordinaries to 156,000 l., making a total of 399,000 l. In 1817, the same item formed

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a, total of 1,231,000 l. the years 1818, 1819, 1820, and 1821, the charge increased, and in 1822 it amounted to 1,244,000 l., being 2,000 l. more than it was in 1817. Though the estimates this year exceeded the estimates of 1817 by that sum, still he would not conceal from the committee that the charges not provided for this year were only 9,000 l. whereas in 1817 they were 50,000 l. The right hon. gentleman had talked much of the reductions he had made, and he (Mr. H.) had consequently expected to hear of some reductions in the estimates for the sea-service of the Ordnance. In 1796, the estimates for that branch of the public service amounted to 41,000 l.; in 1817, they amounted to 49,000 l.; and in the present year, 1822, they amounted to 85,000 l. Surely some reduction ought to have been effected on this bead, or at least some explanation given why none had been or could be made. The right hon. gentleman had also taken credit to himself for the reductions which had been made in the civil branches of the Ordnance. After stating that in 1792 the number of individuals employed in the civil departments of the Ordnance in Great Britain and Ireland was only 385, he had added that the number now employed was not more than 414. There were no returns on the table which enabled him to say whether this assertion was correct or not; but assuming it to be so, he would still say that the best way of understanding the benefit produced by those reductions would be by examining into the constitution of each individual department. In the year 1796, the secretary to the board had seven clerks under him; in 1821, he had 30 clerks under him; and in 1822, he had 23 clerks under him. Now, the committee would observe, that here was a great increase in the number of persons employed. He would next call upon it to observe the increase in the expenditure. In 1796, 833 l. was divided among the 7 clerks. In 1821, the salaries of 36 clerks, along with their gratuities, amounted to 10,310 l.; and in the present year a reduction of 1,800 l. was made in that sum, by the reduction of seven clerks. In 1796, there were 14 clerks under the surveyor-general, at an expense of 2,020 l. inclusive of gratuities. In 1821, 36 clerks, at an expense of 10,621 l., inclusive also of gratuities; and in the present year, a reduction of 1,520 l. was effected by the reduction of seven
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clerks. The hon. member then pointed out the increase in the number of clerks, and in the expenditure, which had taken place in the office of the clerk of the Ordnance, and of the principal storekeeper, since the year 1796; and afterwards declared that the only department, in which he found the number of persons employed absolutely reduced, was that over which the treasurer of the board presided. In 1796, the treasurer had ten clerks under him, at an expense of 1,203 l.; in 1821, he had twelve, at an expense of 3,354 l.; and in the present year, owing to four of them being reduced, he had only eight at an expense of 2,096 l.—He had now pointed out the great increase which had taken place in the number of persons employed in four of the civil departments of the Ordnance; and he could not see how there could have been a reduction in the Ordnance which had brought the number of persons employed to within 79 of the number employed in 1796, when there had been 50 additional clerks employed in the busines conducted in Pall-Mall and the Tower. If that were really the case, the business of the Ordnance must be most unequally distributed. He recollected that it had been asserted on a former occasion, that the increased number of individuals employed by the Ordnance was owing to the increased number of stations. Now, this turned out not to be the case, since the increase appeared to have only taken place in the offices in Pall-Mall and the Tower. Those two offices, in his opinion, ought to be consolidated; and in that opinion he was supported by the report of the commissioners of military inquiry, who had declared that the business of them ought to be conducted under one roof. The clerks of delivery of stores at the Tower and Woolwich ought to be done away with; or, instead of there being two, only one should be permitted to remain. The commissioners of military inquiry declared that the Tower was far from being a convenient place for the reception of stores, and recommended that they should be kept at Woolwich, where one storekeeper could superintend them all. He must say, that he had expected that in the list of places to be reduced, that of clerk of deliveries would have been found.—The hon. member then proceeded to discuss how far it was proper to have a lieutenant-governor of the Tower in time of peace. In order to show that such an office was unneces-

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sary, he quoted the declarations made by lords Moira and Chatham before the commissioners of military inquiry as to its positive inutility. He contended, that reductions might have been made in the civil branches of the Ordnance to three times the extent that they had been carried at present. Instead of there being four members of the board of Ordnance, members of that House, the commissioners of military inquiry had recommended that there should only be two; on the ground, that their attendance in parliament interfered with the performance of their other public duties. How far the carrying of that recommendation into effect would be productive of economy, he could not tell; but this he knew, that upon other grounds it would be most expedient; for it would prevent that full attendance of official gentlemen, which had gained to ministers at least two-thirds of their majorities during the present session. After a full consideration of the question, he had come to this conclusion, that though reductions had been made in the offices in the Tower and Pall-Mall to the amount of 6,000 l. or 7,000 l., reductions might have been made to three times the amount with equal attention to the service of the country, had a proper spirit of economy actuated his majesty's ministers. The whole expenditure of the offices in the Tower and Pall-Mall amounted in 1792 to 18,726 l.; last year it amounted to 65,804 l., and it was this year short of that sum by a few thousands. After pointing out the enormous increase which had taken place in the expenditure of this establishment, he said he could not help thinking that the heads of the department who had reduced the salaries of so many inferior clerks would have been equally well employed if they had turned their attention to the reduction of their own. If the master-general had taken 1,000 l. a year from his own salary, many of those who had suffered by his retrenchments would have borne their fate with greater satisfaction. The master-general's salary was 3,175 l. a year, so that he could well have spared 1, 000 l. from it. The lieut.-general, if his office were not altogether abolished, could at least have spared something from his salary of 1,566 l. a year. So, too, could the surveyor-general, with his salary of 1,236 l.; the clerk of the Ordnance, with his salary of 1,286 l.; and the principal storekeeper with his salary of 1,600 l. a year—a salary, which, in
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1792 was only 693 l. For his own part, he could not help declaring, that he thought any thing above 1,000 l. was a very large sum indeed for a storekeeper. The treasurer of the board could also spare a small portion of his gains. It was true, that in 1796 the treasurer had been allowed to bold balances, and that he was now deprived of all emoluments from that source; still he was of opinion that the gentleman who held that office would be well paid with 1,000 l. a year. At a of such general distress, every public officer should sacrifice some part of his emoluments. He should be happy to hear to explanation of the grounds upon which these salaries had been left untouched. If a satisfactory explanation could be given he should not say another word; but if not, he should propose to reduce the pre sent vote by 10,000 l.
Mr. Wardasserted, that, though some offices might be dispensed with, no such sum could be saved in the barrack department as the hon. member had suggested. With regard to the year 1792, he had already taken a view of our Ordnance establishments at that period, and remarked that, upon enumerating all the subtractions which had been made, it appeared there was a diminution in our favour at present of 29 clerks, It was true that the charge of the establishment in Pall-mall had been augmented; but this was in consequence of the very great access of business which had there taken place. An immense portion had been transferred from the out-stations to Pall-mall and the Tower. As to the store-keeper at the Tower, it should be recollected, that be was now the auditor of the store-accounts, and the hon. gentleman seemed not to have noticed, that the sum of 1,800 l. in last year's estimates, and which was omitted in the present, was for assistant and temporary clerks—not for clerks of the regular establishment. It was a mistake to suppose that gratuities amounting to 22,000 l. were confined in their distribution to the offices at the Tower and in Pall-mall. Under all these circumstances, he could not but regard the hon. gentleman's conclusion, that 10,000 l. should be arbitrarily taken from the present vote, as extremely erroneous. If the hon. member were himself to witness the labour performed by the officers and clerks, and more especially by the secretary, he would, with even his great physical powers, admit; hat it could not be exceeded. A new system had

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been introduced under the immediate authority of the master-general, by which all the clerks were subjected to vigilant superintendance, and the periods as well as duration of their attendance minuted, in order to be reported to their chiefs. Some of them were occasionally detained till a late hour in the evening, for the purpose of bringing a particular account or branch of business to a completion. If 10,000 l. were to be arbitrarily taken away the business could certainly not be performed. The hon. member, in alluding to Ireland, had likewise gone back a great many years; and he must beg to remind him and the committee, that at the time mentioned there was a master-general for Ireland, at a salary of 1,500 l, per annum. The Ordnance in that part of the United Kingdom required at this moment their utmost attention. To come, now, to the hon. gentleman's observations on the amount of salaries and pecuniary allowances, he could not believe that the committee would consider the master-general's as excessive. He (Mr. Ward) held the appointment of clerk of the Ordnance, and although entitled to no benefit from the new superannuation hill, should be called upon, with all who held the higher or more lucrative situations, to relinquish 10 per cent of his official income. Neither would this result be prevented by the circumstance of its being already 100 l. less than it was in 1792; unless indeed, hon. gentlemen on the other side would interfere on the score of justice, to vindicate his claims. [Hear.] The treasurer (Mr. Holmes) was to lose 120 l. of his salary, and had, it was well known, always submitted his accounts to the Audit-office, with a clearness and regularity that obtained for him the highest credit. He was one of those included in the superannuation bill, but he sincerely hoped it would be long before his hon. friend felt disposed to avail himself of that advantage. It was true that the commissioners of military inquiry had recommended a junction of the offices at the Tower and in Pall-mall under one roof; and the board had been much engaged in the consideration of this subject. They had not come to any determinate opinion, though it was obvious that they who were habitually conversant with all the details and regulations of the department, must be more competent to form a solid judgment, than a few gentlemen, pursuing their inquiries for a short tinge, and deriving no knowledge from
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their own experience. He entirely disagreed with their report, and was ready to contest it with the hon. gentleman, point by point. It was not then the time to enter into any question as to the clue influence of the Crown, but he might observe, that only three members of the board of Ordnance sat in that House. The hon. gentleman seemed to think, that the post of lieutenant-general might be dispensed with, but in his (Mr. Ward's) view, it was a situation of considerable importance, as much of the civil business of the Ordnance partook of a military character. With regard to the construction of the board, he was aware that some eminent persons had at different times imagined that it required alteration: but it was an error to suppose, that lord Chatham or lord Mulgrave ever went farther than to propose it as a matter for consideration. The duke of Wellington whose eyes were about him as much as if he were in the face of an enemy, had not come to any such conclusion. He trusted finally, that the committee would not be induced to support an amendment having for its object an arbitrary reduction, on no other ground than that some years ago a certain portion of business was done for less than the sum now estimated by those who had been long engaged in this branch of the public service, and who ought to know best all that related to it.
Mr. Elliceagreed with his hon. friend, that considerable farther reductions were practicable, and that a junction might be advantageously effected between the two establishments at the Tower and in Pall-mall. How was the House to come to a right conclusion on this subject, if they undervalued the recommendations of persons specially appointed by the Crown for the purpose of inquiring, when there was nothing on the other side but the statements of those interested against them? As to the amendment, there was one principle on which he would support it, and every other, directed against an increase of emolument as compared with the year 1796; and that was, unless it could be shown that the business for which it was granted had proportionately increased likewise. No gentleman expected his private property to increase above that standard, and painful as the process must be, the necessities of the country demanded farther reductions. He did not see why the master-general's allowance should not be diminished; sure he was, that if

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3,000 l. was a fit salary some years ago, and during the depreciation of money, it was too much at present. His hon. friend contended, night after night, against a host, but with very little success; yet the time was approaching when the public would be no longer able to sustain the pressure. It had been recently stated that the half-pay of military officers was in the nature of a retaining fee, by which they engaged their services as in the event of a new war. Now what he wished to learn was, whether the superannuation allowances were to be regarded in the same light, and whether vacancies in civil appointments were to be filled up from what was to be called the retired list? He was convinced that the country had yet only arrived at part of its distress; and it was the duty of every member to see that both efficient and non-efficient offices were placed on a footing strictly just. The reductions proposed by ministers were far from adequate to the occasion. He considered the mere sacrifice of 10 per cent by persons holding the highest offices as little better than a mockery; and if a division should be pressed, he would certainly vote for the amendment.
Mr. Ward,in explanation, observed that most of the appointments were from the officers on half-pay, but that in some cases it was necessary to introduce new persons.
Mr. Humecontended, that he did not deserve the imputation of proposing reductions arbitrarily. He had entered into particulars, and shown how savings might be effected. He even quoted in support of his recommendations the recorded opinion of a commission which had investigated the subject. In the storekeeping department alone, by the adoption of the reforms which the commissioners had pointed out, and which he had re-urged, the whole saving of 10,000 l. might be effected. The allowances of the master-general should not be the same in peace as in war. While the heads of departments continued to enjoy undiminished emoluments, he could not allow that any symptoms of economy appeared whatever talk they might hear of it. He would conclude by moving, that the vote be reduced by 10,000 l.
The committee divided: For the amendment 30. Against it 95. Majority against the amendment 65. The original resolution was then agreed to.

List of the Minority.

Barrett, S.B. M.

M'Donald, James

Benyon, B.

Maule, hon. W.

Bernal, R.

Monck, J. B.

Birch, J.

Palmer, C. F.

Blake, sir F.

Pym, F.

Bright, H.

Rickford, W.

Bury, visct.

Ricardo, David

Creevey, T.

Robinson, sir G.

Davies, col.

Robarts, col.

Dickinson, W.

Rumbold, C. E.

Fergusson, sir R. C.

Scott, James

Griffith, J. W.

Smith, W.

Haldimand, W.

Whitbread, S.

Hume, J.

Wood, ald.

James, W.

TELLER.

Jervoise, G. P.

Ellice, E.

Lushington, Dr.