Sitting of 29 April 1822

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
Mr. Goochpresented a petition from several considerable land owners in Suffolk, complaining of agricultural distress. The petitioners prayed, that such a reduction of public expenditure might be effected as would justify a further reduction of taxation; but they expressed an apprehension, that no immediate relief could be derived from that source. He viewed with great dismay the distressed state of the agriculturists. A remission of taxation he knew would assist them; and as far as a reduction of establishment could enable that to be done, he would do it. He had felt it his duty to move in the last session, that some notice should be taken of the numerous agricultural petitions on the table of the House. In the committee which was appointed, he was nominated chairman, and he would not flinch from any of the responsibility that might attach to him on that account. It had been thought proper that that committee should be re-appointed this year; but he was sorry to say, that their report contained nothing satisfactory to the country. It proposed no measures calculated to afford immediate adequate relief. It should, however, be borne in mind how difficult it was to discover any such remedy for the present evils. The markets were glutted to the extreme, and corn must either be removed from the market, or more money must be brought into it for that purpose. A prohibitory duty on the importation of corn was what would be most beneficial to the farmer. When the ports were opened in 1820, by means of a fraud, 700,000 quarters of oats were admitted; and with an average consumption of 30,000,000 a-year, it was surprising the effect which that importation had in lowering the prices. He agreed in the system of duties, but not as to the quantum: the duties recommended by the report were not sufficient. This country could not maintain her station in Europe if its agriculture were allowed to sink. The petitioners, amongst other remedies, prayed for a reform in parliament. In this he did not agree with them, being satisfied that reform would not put one shilling into the pocket of the farmer.
Mr. Humeobserved, that this was not the first time that the hon. member had I expressed his anxiety to relieve the dis-

143
tress of the agriculturist. But in the numerous motions which had been made for the remission of taxes, and the reduction of expenditure, he did not recollect having had the pleasure of having the hon. member in the minority. What was the use, then, of presenting petitions of this kind, and talking about raising the price of corn, if he would not assist in lowering and abolishing useless establishments, in order to effect that which he acknowledged to be the only remedy? The only way to relieve the country was, to reduce the price of production, and to export the surplus corn to other countries; Up to the year 1760 or 1770, this was an exporting country. He hoped the hon. member, by his future conduct, would make up for his past omissions.
Mr. Cokepresented a petition from the hundred of Earsham, in the county of Norfolk. He stated the distress in that part of the country to be such, that many formers were quitting their farms, and giving up agricultural pursuits altogether. He believed most firmly that no relief was to be expected from the noble marquis who had so long managed that House and the country. This was the opinion of the petitioners, all of whom went further than formerly, and called for reform in that House as the only remedy for the existing distress. He agreed with them that the only perfect remedy for the evil was to be found in a reform in that House, and he hoped the example set by these petitioners would be followed by every hundred in the country. If this were done, it would be impossible for the government to resist the public voice. Ultimately, the public voice would make itself heard; but he feared that it would be in some other way than through the medium of that House. He complained of the manner in which the complaints of petitioners had hitherto been treated. Some years ago, on a petition being presented, the noble lord opposite had remarked on the "ignorant impatience of taxation" which prevailed. Perhaps similar language might be held on the present occasion; but, whatever might be said, it was most afflicting to see the county to which he belonged, and which was so closely identified with that noble science to which his life had been devoted, reduced by the burthens under which it laboured almost to a state of beggarry. Relief ought to be given without delay. No attention, however, was paid to the
144
distresses of the petitioners. They complained of the distress which had fallen on them, and prayed for that protection to which the British farmer was entitled. They prayed for a reform in that House, and a system of fair and equal representation, of which property should be the basis. They demanded retrenchment in every department, and called for the reduction of sinecures, and all useless offices. The petition he presented with pleasure, as he was always gratified when his constituents called for reform in firm, but constitutional language. In the hundred from which this petition came, there were but two magistrates, both of whom were clergymen. On the propriety of placing clergymen in such situations he offered some remarks, and commented on their conduct in withholding their sanction, from the meeting at which this petition had been voted, and thus attempting to interpose an obstacle to the exercise of the right of petitioning.
Mr. Wodehousesaid, that with respect to the report, he thought it right to say, that it had proved generally unsatisfactory, to the country. It did not protect the farmer against the importation of foreign grain; but he had no hesitation in saying, that effectual relief could not be afforded till the great pressure of the public burthens had been mitigated. As the language he held was thought inconsistent with his conduct in some instances, he was anxious to explain his reasons for voting in favour of keeping up the sinking fund, and for opposing the repeal of the salt-tax. Whether in the present state of the country it was wise to preserve the sinking fund was certainly questionable. But he could not make up his mind to dispense with it: as it was difficult to calculate what effect this might produce on public credit. When the question on the salt-tax was brought forward, he had looked at the peculiar situation in which the government was placed. They had lost by the malt-tax, which had been given up, 2,000,000 l. The repeal of the salt-tax would have taken from them another million; and this too at a time when the government was engaged in paying off the 5 per cents. Under these circumstances, he had not thought it right to vote against ministers on that occasion. He had now a few words to offer on what had fallen from his hon. colleague on the subject of the meeting at which this petition had been voted. He had alluded to

145
the refusal of the magistrates to sanction it on the requisition being first proposed. After the language which had been held at some of the meetings he did not wonder at there being a reluctance on the part of the magistrates to comply with the requisition. He felt it incumbent on him to explain more particularly the situation in which the county had stood. They had unfortunately had two men executed in it, who, at the moment of their leaving the world, had, declared, that the outrages which they had committed had no object but to frighten the farmers into increasing the allowances of those in their employ. The House might recollect that at the meeting in Surrey, lord King had held forth at some length on the merits of Mr. Cobbett. That speech had been printed in handbills, and circulated in Norfolk. Norfolk was held to be the best place to circulate this paper, because it was known that great distress prevailed there. Now, when a peer of the realm thought proper to bestow unqualified praise on a man, who, it was known, had no regard for the rights, to property, he could not but think such conduct dangerous. In his opinion, it was most improper—most unkind to the country, and most unworthy of the situation which, that noble lord held in society. He had been taunted with having voted last year, first against reducing the army by 10,000 men, and then against taking 5,000 from its numbers. Now, he looked back on the votes which he had given on those occasions with much satisfaction, and regretted the reduction which had taken place. If the effect of this reduction were properly explained to the public—if it were seen by them, that men who had been twenty years in the service of their country, were sent out again to rot in places where they ought not to have been called upon to serve any more, he thought the public would be inclined to say, "a fig for such retrenchment." When gentlemen were so fond of taunting others with inconsistencies, he must remind them of their own. After calling for the reduction of the army, when the first question of the present session was brought forward relating to Ireland, the first words uttered were, "Why not proclaim martial law?" To him there appeared no small inconsistency in declaring against a standing army, and then, on the first appearance of disturbances, of calling for martial law.
Mr. Bennetsaid, that he was present at the Surrey meeting alluded to, and would observe, that if lord King had not so spoken of Mr. Cobbett, he (Mr. B.) would have said, what he now declared, that Mr. Cobbett was entitled to the thanks of the country, for the able and clear manner in which he investigated many interesting subjects. But if lord King had thought proper to make such a statement, what right had the hon. member to condemn him in his absence? The opinion of the noble lord was as good as that of the hon. member. There was in that noble lord that quickness and acuteness of intellect which, while he was by birth a descendant of the great Locke, was a further proof of his claim to the honour of which he had so much reason to be proud.
Mr. Wodehousesaid, he believed the words used by lord King with respect to Mr. Cobbett, were to the effect, "that he was the most able and intelligent writer of this or any former time, on political subjects." Mr. Cobbett had been a good deal in the county of Norfolk of late. His exertions during the last year had been directed to persuade the people of England that the farmers were the greatest brutes in nature. To hear such a man held up as an object of admiration was shocking; and therefore it was: that he had made the observations which had fallen from him.
Ordered to lie on the table.

SCARCITY OF PROVISIONS IN IRELAND.
Sir E. O'Briensaid, that before the House proceeded to the important business of the day, he wished to point out to the gentlemen around him, the very dreadful and calamitous situation to which a great portion of his countrymen were reduce. There were at that moment thousands of persons in Ireland, who, in consequence of the failure of the late potatoe crop, were reduced to a single meal a day, and that meal generally consisted of oatmeal and water. It was well known that, generally speaking, the whole population of the South of Ireland lived, during a great portion of the year, upon potatoes; but, during the last year, the incessant rains which prevailed, had totally decayed and destroyed that vegetable in the ground. At the late assizes in his county, the distressed state of the people was taken into consideration, and a representation of that distress was made to the

147
lord lieutenant. He had no doubt of the benevolent intentions of the noble lord who now filled the office of lord lieutenant, but it was impossible to extend relief to that poor and suffering country, without the interference and aid of parliament. It was a lamentable fact, that at that moment the counties of Cork, Kerry, Limerick, Mayo, and Roscommon, in fact, the whole provinces of Munster and Connaught, were in a state of actual starvation. If the counties of Lancaster, or Warwick, or Stafford, were suffering as Ireland now was, what, he would ask, would be the feelings of that House? What were the people of that unfortunate country to do? How were they, deprived as they were of money, of any resource, to relieve themselves from the difficulties under which they laboured? He well remembered the situation in which Ireland was placed in 1817. Great as the distresses of the country were at, that period, there was still a circulation of money, and a high price of corn, which afforded many openings of relief. But, what was the situation of the country now? There was scarcely a town lb the south of Ireland, in which hundreds of strong, able-bodied men, were not to be seen walking about without any means of getting employment. The question for the consideration of the House was—what had produced this state of things? One-third of the respectable people of the county of Clare had been reduced to absolute distress; they had neither money nor means to relieve themselves. He was aware that there was plenty of corn in the market; but, what did that do towards relief, when the distressed parties had no money to buy? It was true that the gentry of the county were, in many instances, ready to cooperate with the magistrates in affording relief; but how was it possible for a few individuals to afford permanent relief to 150,000 men? In making this statement, he did not appear before the House as a mendicant on the part of his country. All he asked was, that government would make advances to relieve the present distresses of unfortunate Ireland. For these advances the county rates could be pledged, and the money might be laid out in repairing roads, or in such other manner as might be best calculated to afford relief. It was well known to many of his friends, that thousands were at that moment dying from famine in Ireland. He was most anxious to make this statement at the
148
earliest period, with a view to draw the attention of government to it; for unless relief was promptly afforded, the unfortunate population must suffer the last stage of misery. A short time ago, potatoes, the principal food of the peasantry, of Ireland, were sold at from one penny to three halfpence per stone; during this year they were sold at 6½d. per stone. And, while this general article of Irish consumption was so raised, oatmeal had also risen from 13 l. to 15 l. per ton. The hon. baronet, after pointing out with great feeling the other distresses under which the people of Ireland laboured, adverted to the fact of the poor people in Ireland being actually obliged to rob for their subsistence. He had himself been informed by the head police officer in his county, that if they were to commit all the persons who took provisions for their support, no gaol in the country could hold them; nay, farther, that the parties so arrested, if they could get their families around them, would think that they had made a happy exchange in getting into prison. The hon. baronet concluded by expressing a hope that parliament would take into its serious consideration the suffering state of Ireland.
Mr. Bechercorroborated the hon. baronet's statement, and expressed his fear that, in a very short time, even the scanty subsistence now on hand would be altogether expended.
Mr. Goulburnexpressed his surprise that the hon. baronet should have taken that premature opportunity of calling upon the House to enter into the consideration of the state of the peasantry in Ireland. He was the more surprised at this course, as the hon. baronet had been in daily communication with him upon the subject of this distress, and must have known that, if he had hitherto refrained from stating the views of the Irish government, it was not from any want of sympathy for the sufferers, nor from the slightest inclination to withhold whatever relief the government of Ireland could practically afford; but from a firm conviction, that the agitation of the subject would augment rather than alleviate the evils which the hon. baronet had so feelingly deplored. Supposing the distress to be as general in the south of Ireland as the hon. baronet had depicted it to be, and the condition of the resident gentry so reduced as to render them unable to mitigate the condition of their peasantry, to whom, the hon. baronet asked, but to the government, Could the

149
people look up for relief? The Irish government were, however, first bound to consider to what extent they had the means of administering relief; and the House might form some estimate of the probable amount which would be required generally from the government, to meet the demands likely to be made upon them, if they once took upon themselves the responsibility of subsisting the people, from this single fact, that the amount of relief claimed from the hon. baronet's county alone was for 4.00,000 l. The government could not, he thought, he considered much to blame, if they paused at the outset, and forbore from hastily admitting a precedent, which would encourage a liability for a repetition of those demands from various quarters of the country. The case he believed, was really this—that, in some parts there was a great deficiency in a particular crop, which constituted the chief subsistence of the peasantry of Ireland. But, though the potatoe crops had, in many places suffered, yet in others there was an abundant supply of corn; and at the very time when the scarcity had enhanced the price of potatoes in the most distressed market, the price of oatmeal continued lower than it generally was throughout the empire. The rise in the latter article was not for some time more than 2s. in the cwt., although he admitted the advance had increased to 12 s. or 13 s. during a part of the last week. In answer to the hon. baronet's inquiry, why the government had not sent down a commission to inquire into the extent of the distress, he had only to inform the House, what the hon. baronet previously knew, that Mr. Warburton, who came up to Dublin to communicate the opinions of the gentlemen of his county, was immediately charged by the lord lieutenant with a commission, to return and ascertain first, in a more detailed form, the degree of pressure which was apprehended; next, to what extent the gentlemen of the county could contribute to the relief of their peasantry; and that then it would remain for government to take into their consideration the measures of co-operation which they could administer. His letters from Dublin that day announced the return of Mr. Warburton, and that the lord lieutenant was then in a situation to decide how far government could afford any relief.
Sir E. O'Briendisclaimed imputing the slightest neglect to the Irish government, but repeated that he thought parliament
150
alone capable of meeting the evil. He had no intention of throwing his country men upon Great Britain as paupers; but only asked an advance upon the county rates to enable them to provide for themselves by their own industry.

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS, AND THE FINANCIAL AND OTHER MEASURES FOR ITS RELIEF.
The House having resolved itself into a committee to consider farther of the Report of the Committee on the Agricultural Distress,
The Marquis or, Londonderryrose and addressed the committee as follows:*
I rise, Sir, in conformity to my notice, to call the attention of the committee to the Report from the select committee appointed to inquire into the allegations of the several petitions presented to the House, in the last and present sessions of parliament, complaining of the distressed state of the Agriculture of the United Kingdom. Sir, I am sure that I should much disappoint the feelings and wishes of the House, if, before I proceed to explain the particular measures which I am about to propose, I did not call their attention to the question, out of which that Report has mainly sprung;—I mean, the severe distress of the agricultural interest, which has led to the presentation of so many petitions to parliament, in the last as well as in the present session, from the various bodies connected with it throughout the country. I am anxious to do so, as well for the purpose of expressing my own opinion on the nature and extent of the existing distress, as of giving some information to the committee, preparatory to a full statement of the course which his majesty's government mean to take on the subject; and I shall also communicate several further suggestions, as to the relief which it may be practicable to afford to the agricultural interest; and to which I did not advert, when I formerly had the honour to address the House on this important topic.
About ten weeks have elapsed since I last submitted my sentiments on this question; and, if I now thought I had taken, at that period, an inaccurate view of the general nature of the evil, or of the description of remedy of which it may be susceptible, there is nothing that would
*From the original edition, published by Hatchard, Piccadilly.

151
make me unwilling to come forward and acknowledge the error into which I had fallen. But, on the contrary, I must now declare, that the opinions which I had then formed appear to me, on the most deliberate reflection, to be substantially correct. I then stated, that I believed the question of distress might be considered as confined to the agricultural interest. I lamented the existence of that distress most deeply. I thought as seriously on the consequences of it as the hon. member for Norfolk himself can think. But, entertaining most sincerely that feeling, I nevertheless deemed it essential to bear in mind, that the general situation of the country, with the exception of what belonged to agriculture, might be regarded as prosperous. As far as I have since been informed, it unquestionably appear, that our manufactures and commerce are in a state of progressive prosperity; and I have the satisfaction to add, that the revenue continues to improve. Since I last addressed the House on this point, the amount of the quarter's revenue, as compared with the corresponding quarter of last year, has shown as increase of between 400,00 l. and 500,000 l.: and I have the satisfaction further to state, that the accounts, for three weeks, which have been made up since the last quarter day, exhibit an increase of 283,000 l., as compared with the corresponding period in the last year; so that it appears, that subsequently to the last quarter's account, which showed so much improvement, the revenue has gradually continued to increase, as compared with that of last year, at the rate of above 90,000 l. a week. I do not adduce this fact as conclusive, but only as presumptive evidence of the improving condition of our manufactures and commerce; and it is consoling, when so much stress is land, and very properly laid, on the present pressure upon agriculture, to be enabled to advert to a criterion which justifies us in presuming that, although a great and important interest of the country certainly suffers severely, that suffering is not so universally diffused as some persons seem to imagine.
As to the mode by which it might be practicable to relieve the agricultural distress, I then stated my opinion—an pinion to which I still adhere—that, according to the best information which I was enabled to procure, that distress arose chiefly from cause which were not
152
within the reach of any legislative remedy, and was the result of various circumstances influencing the market; that it; was occasioned by an excess of produce, brought to that market; and that until the supply adjusted itself to the demand so as to afford a fair profit on the capital employed in agriculture, all attempts to correct the evil by legislation must prove abortive. I contended, and I now repeat, fortified considerably by the discussions which have since taken place on the subject, and more especially by the sanction and confirmation which the opinion I expressed has received in the able work which has recently been published by the hon. member for Portarlington (Mr. Ricardo), than whom it is impossible for the House on such questions to have higher authority;—that the remission of taxes, although highly desirable as a relief to the consumer generally, and, to the agriculturists only in common with all other consumers, is not calculated to reach the disease in the shape of an effectual remedy.—I admitted, that it might act as a palliative, and as such be applied rather to soothe the feelings of those whom it concerned, than to relieve their actual wants; but I insisted that to hold it out as a remedy for the depression and distress of the corn market, was to practise one of the worst delusions that could possibly be imposed upon the country. And, Sir, I do now conscientiously believe, that the intelligent portion of the community, even amongst the farmers themselves, are convinced that, if the whole of our taxation could by possibility be relinquished, the necessary relief would not be thereby afforded to that most important branch of the national industry. At the same time I distinctly stated, that I considered it to be our duty to look at all the circumstances connected with the landed interest—in order to see if it were possible to devise any thing, which, though not a direct remedy, might nevertheless afford relief collaterally, and facilitate the efforts of individuals engaged in agriculture, by giving to them the means of advantageously employing capital; and I added, that in a country abounding in active exertion like this, it was impossible, by judiciously; relieving any one branch of the national interests, not thereby to benefit the whole.
Sir, I then ventured to call the attention of the House to various measures which seemed, in the opinion of his ma-

153
jesty's government, to deserve the serious consideration of parliament. Those measures naturally divided themselves into three classes; first, measures of a financial character;—secondly, such as are connected with the state of the currency of the country; and, thirdly, those calculated to relieve agriculture, as far as relief is to be found in advances to be made to the agriculturist, on adequate security. I now beg leave to recal the attention of the House to these particular measures, and to state the grounds on which his majesty's government are now prepared to act, with reference to each of the three great branches of the question which I have just described.
I will begin with that class to which I last adverted; and consider how far any pecuniary advances which the House may think it desirable to sanction, can be rendered available to the diminution of agricultural distress. When I formerly addressed the House on this subject, I stated the reasons why, after the fullest deliberation on the part of his majesty's government, it did not appear to them that it would be practicable or advantageous as a system of relief, to advance any sums by way of mortgage; or that in point of fact any effectual relief could be afforded, by such a course of proceeding as that of advancing money either on the landed property of the agriculturist, or on his own personal security. I stated, however, that there was another measure, by which we might facilitate the general object we had in view; and that was, the making certain advances to parishes on the security of the parochial rates, with a view of mitigating the immediate and extreme pressure of the poor-rates in many parts of the country. In describing that measure, however, I observed that, although his majesty's government thought it their duty to submit it to the consideration of parliament—as one which might perhaps be resorted to with advantage in the existing state of things, yet that we also felt it to be liable to considerable objections; and therefore that his majesty's government were desirous to keep it open for further consideration and discussion. In the agricultural committee I had an opportunity of ascertaining the general opinion on this subject of individuals of great practical knowledge and experience; and I haves now to state to the House, that the difficulties in the way, of the successful execution of this
154
plan appeared to these individuals so much to preponderate over its advantages, that it is not the intention of his majesty's government to make any proposition to parliament with respect to this particular species of relief.—There is, however, another mode of advancing capital for the relief of the agriculturist, which stands on a different principle, and to this the committee have given their sanction; namely, an advance by government, not exceeding in amount one million sterling, on the security of British corn, to be stored for that purpose.—Sir, I never disguised from the House my opinion, that advances of this nature require great consideration, and are only justifiable under the pressure of extraordinary necessity. I stated to the House, on a former occasion, the reasons which induced me to think that such a measurer ought not to be adopted as a general principle; but at the same time I observed that there might be circumstances which would render its adoption advisable; and I instanced, as a similar case which had already occurred, the advance of Exchequer bills a few years ago, on the security of manufacturing and commercial property. It is not my intention at present to enter into any detailed argument on the subject: I wish, however, to apprise the House, that this particular proposition in the committee did not originate with me; but that, as it has received the sanction of the committee, I feel it to be my duty to propose it for the consideration of the House; the more especially, as I understand that it is a measure front, which the farmers themselves conceive, that they shall derive considerable advantage. In deference therefore to the opinion of the committee, believing as I do that the farmers generally look, to this measure with anxiety, as likely to tend materially to their relief—and anxious as; I am to assist in carrying into execution any plan that may in its operation have a tendency to improve the condition of the great body of the agriculturists, I shall certainly submit to the House the propriety of adopting in this respect the recommendation of the committee.
If, Sir, I thought that the true character of this measure was such, as I know I shall hear it described by some hon. gentlemen, namely, one to raise the price of corn, I would not give it my support. But my impression with respect to it is, that it cannot fairly be so considered. Its effect will

155
be, not to raise the price or corn above its just level, but to preserve that level, by rendering the distribution of the produce of the year more proportionate to the actual wants of the consumer; thus relieving the market, which, owing to present circumstances, is so inundated with produce, that the fair and natural competition, which in ordinary times exists, and which ought always to exist between the buyer and the seller, is, for the present, materially deranged. There probably never was a period in the history of the country, when the seller of corn laboured under such overwhelming disadvantages as at the present moment; arising from the market being supplied, as the returns will prove, with, double its average amount of produce. The tendency of the measure recommended by the committee, is, not to raise the price of corn, but to distribute the supply more equally over the whole year; and to protect the markets from the effects of that excess, which, at the present moment, pours in upon and depresses them. When adopted, it may, or may not, come into action. It is not founded on the principle of any direct interference on the part of government with the market; but its operation will altogether depend on the view which individuals take of the state of that market, acting strictly on a calculation of their own interests. If those individuals do not believe that the market has been glutted at an early period of the year, to the excessive depression of price, so as necessarily to lead to higher prices as the year advances, they will have no inducement to enter into the speculation of borrowing a capital, which they will afterwards be called upon to repay with interest. But if, on the other hand, there be reason for the presumption, that the market having been glutted, corn will, under all the circumstances of the case, naturally obtain higher prices in the latter part of the year, it is surely desirable that the farmer should have the means afforded him, through the operations of the corn merchant, of a part of the year's produce being held over for a market, at a moment when, if brought to a sale, it must necessarily lower the price. It cannot therefore be truly, said, that there is any thing so unsound, so unnatural, or so artificial in this proposal, as to render it prejudicial, under circumstances of much agricultural embarrassment; specially when adopted only as a
156
temporary measure, and as corrective of a system in itself artificial. If it should lead to no favourable result, at least can do no harm;—and the general impression on the minds of the farmers being, as I understand, that it is likely to be beneficial to them, if, under such circumstances, the House should refuse to try the experiment, the farmers might hereafter say, that, had it been tried, it would have afforded them relief.—I really do not perceive that any aggravation of the existing evil can by possibility arise from this measure, and I shall therefore certainly submit it for the consideration of the House.
The sum which his majesty's government propose shall be thus advanced is, as I have before stated, one million sterling; and I will presently call your attention to the fund out of which it is intended that that sum shall be so advanced. But there is another application of the credit of the country which, under the present circumstances, his majesty's government mean to recommend to parliament. Had the hon. baronet opposite (sir E. O'Brien) delayed for a short time the communication which he this evening made to the House, with respect to the distresses which unfortunately oppress the population of the south and west of Ireland, he would have found that those distresses had already engaged the anxious attention of his majesty's government; and he would have been informed, that, with a view to enable the lord lieutenant of Ireland, liberally, but at the same time cautiously, to relieve the most urgent of those distresses, it is the intention of my right hon. friend, the Chief Secretary for Ireland, shortly to propose a vote of credit (similar to that which was agreed to in 1817), placing at the disposal of the lord lieutenant funds, by which he will be enabled to make those local and appropriate advances, which may tend, as in the former instance, materially to mitigate the existing evil. With respect to the second object of the hon. baronet, that of employing the poorer classes, I have to state that it is in the contemplation of his majesty's government, to propose an additional vote of one million sterling, to be applied, under the present commissioners, in the forwarding of public works, where there is a prospect of a Profit which will indemnify the public for the advance. Such an application of capital will, white it gives useful occupation to the poor,

157
have the effect of assisting improvements of great national benefit. These two sums—the advance on British corn stored, and that for carrying on public works, will amount to about 2,000,000 l. of capital; of course to be advanced only upon adequate security, and subject to repayment with interest.
Sir, the next great branch of the question to which I wish to direct the attention of the committee is, the state of the circulating medium of the country. When I mentioned this subject on a former occasion, I opened to the House the opinion entertained by his majesty's government with respect to the most convenient mode in which the advances, which it is proposed to make, can be effected, so as to afford the most general benefit; and I stated, that his majesty's government were engaged in a negotiation with the Bank of England for an advance of 4,000,000 l. on Exchequer bills, at the moderate interest of 3 per cent, subject of course to the approbation and decision of parliament. I also stated, that the object which his majesty's government had in view was in some degree to relieve the pressure upon the money circulation; and thereby to produce a general and important benefit to the country, independent of any particular and individual advantage; and I declared that I should be prepared to urge parliament, should all schemes of local application be abandoned, still to adopt measures by which the sum in question might find its way into general circulation. Sir, his majesty's government adhere to the views on this subject which I then described; and I have now to state that they have concluded an arrangement with the Bank of England for the purpose of carrying those views into effect.
I have already observed that 1,000,000 l. will be necessary to execute the proposed measure of making advances on the storing of British corn; ánd another 1,000,000 l. for the intended application to public works generally; which latter sum will include a sufficient fund for the purpose of mitigating the particular distress existing at the present moment in the south and west of Ireland. I have now the satisfaction to inform the House, that since these subjects were last discussed in parliament, the Bank of England has consented to advance, at an interest of 3 per cent, a sufficient sum to pay off all the holders of navy 5 per cents,
158
who have dissented from subscribing to the proposal for an exchange into the 4 per cent stock; which sum will somewhat exceed 2,600,000 l. I therefore suggest the expediency, in conformity to the view which his majesty's government take of the subject, of throwing these sums into general circulation; namely, the 2,000,000 l. to which I have already alluded, which will enter the circulation by particular channels;—and the 2,600,000 l. which in July next will find its way into direct circulation, by paying off those holders of navy 5 per cents, who were not disposed to become parties to the late arrangement respecting that stock.
I will now call the attention of the committee more pointedly to the general state of the circulation, and to the various circumstances by which it is affected. The House are aware that the act, empowering private bankers in the country to issue notes under 5l. in value, will expire in the year 1825; and that consequently, if parliament do not interfere, by extending the operation of that act, all the small paper currency of the country—all that currency which consists of notes under 5l. in value—must be put out of circulation, and its place be supplied by a metallic currency. Now, we are approaching so nearly to the period of the expiration of that act, that it is essential parliament should, without loss of time, decide with respect to the course of policy which it may be most expedient to pursue. Either we should at once determine to extend the law for a further period, or we should give the parties concerned fair notice that we intend to allow it to expire. This becomes the more necessary, as there is reason to believe, that the country bankers, with the termination of the present law in view, have, for some time past, been contracting their issues in order to meet that event. There is reason to believe that, no longer indulging in speculation, the country bankers are not acting even up to the natural scale of the credit to which the property they possess entitles them, in consequence of the measures which they think it necessary to adopt, in order to be prepared for the total suppression of, their small paper currency. If, therefore, it be the intention of parliament to allow the act for the regulation of country bank paper to expire, that intention ought now to be declared, in order that still more extensive efforts may be made to

159
procure an adequate supply of the precious metals to replace that paper. If, on the other hand, this operation can be dispensed with, it should, without further delay, be discouraged, as the effect of such an importation, in the interval, would be, to augment the pressure upon our circulation, by a large, and in that case unnecessary, accumulation of gold. It is for parliament to consider whether a metallic currency alone is sufficient to satisfy all the wants of the country. It is for parliament to consider whether, looking at the general circulation, with respect both to this country and to the world at large, it would be sound policy, that the whole of that circulation should be filled up, in its details, by a metallic currency. I am sure the House will go along with me in feeling, that the time has arrived when we are bound to come to some conclusion on this most important question. And here I have to state, that after the best consideration which his majesty's government have been able to bestow on the subject, they are satisfied that, under all the circumstances of the case, it will be prudent and expedient, not only to extend the duration of the act in question, but to extend it for a considerable number of years, by making that duration concurrent with that of the charter of the Bank of England, which will not expire until the year 1833.
I am sure the House will feel, that if, even at this moment, it be the fact, that we are suffering an unnecessary pressure, resulting from the efforts which had been made to bring gold into the country, and to hold it in the coffers of the Bank of England, in order to effect the great object of returning to our ancient metallic standard;—if that be the case, and I really believe it so to be, it is imperative upon us to consider how much the evil will be needlessly aggravated, if to the gold which has been accumulated for that purpose, is to be added the gold which it will be necessary to provide, in order to replace the small country notes, should they also be withdrawn. If it be not necessary to our credit to do away with those notes, why should the country bankers be exposed to the obligation of keeping by them a large dead capital in gold, which has, in many points, been found inconvenient in the detail of general circulation? It is indispensable, therefore, that we should now decide this important question; and, in truth, we come
160
to the decision with some intimation from the country of what we ought to do. It is a curious fact, that the great efforts which the Bank of England have considered it their duty to make, for the purpose of introducing gold generally into the circulation of the country, have, in a great measure, failed; for no sooner do they issue sovereigns, than those sovereigns are returned to them in payments; which is certainly the strongest possible indication that the country prefers a paper currency, founded on a basis of satisfactory security. If parliament, therefore, should refuse to renew the act to which I have alluded, it will force a gold currency upon the country, against its wishes, at a moment when, to sustain it, we must injudiciously draw on our resources; and when the accumulation of vast masses of that precious metal, must inflict on this country, and all the other countries of Europe, a great and unnecessary inconvenience. For these reasons, and without troubling the committee at present with further details, I have now to state, that his majesty's government, having to choose between the alternatives, have determined, under all the circumstances of the case, to recommend to parliament to permit the circulation in question to continue to be carried on in paper, to rest on the credit of the parties by whom that paper is issued. Of course, the bill by which it is proposed to continue the present act, will contain the existing provisions for the security of the public; and it is also intended to introduce a provision that private bankers issuing such small notes, shall not be considered as failing in their obligations if they pay them in Bank of England notes; these latter being of course payable, as at present, in cash, at the Bank of England. Unless the country bankers are so protected, they will not be able to issue their notes with safety.
It has been the anxious wish of his majesty's government to couple with the extension of the present permission to country bankers to issue small notes, some regulation which may have a tendency to provide against an excessive issue of such notes upon inadequate security. It is certainly true, as has been justly observed by an hon. gentleman opposite, that this matter may be left to be dealt with by the natural precaution of the community; yet, if any unexceptionable security could be combined with that precaution, it would be so much clear gain. His ma-

161
jesty's government had at one time some idea of requiring a deposit of actual property as a security; but the details of such measures were, on examination, found to be so difficult and complicated, that we were induced to abandon it. In lieu thereof, and in order to increase the effect and stability of those banking operations, by augmenting the number of persons embarking in them, it number of persons embarking in them, it has been thought fit and proper to open a negotiations with the Bank of England, for the purpose of obtaining from them such a relaxation of the Bank charter, as many enable individuals who are so disposed to establish private banks, consisting of a greater number of partners than six, the number to which they are at present limited by the provisions of the Bank of England charter. It is not intended, however, that this shall take place immediately within the sphere of the Bank of England—not in London, or in the neighbouring districts, at such a distance from London as shall not materially affect the operations of the Bank of England, while it undoubtedly will greatly add to the convenience and security of the public. Sir, his majesty's government are persuaded, that, if the important object could be obtained of limiting the exclusive privilege of the Bank of England to a distance of sixty-five miles from London, leaving it every where else open for any joint stock company that chose to do so, to set up a banking establishment, such a measure would give great solidity, as well as facility to the circulation; and very materially strengthen the credit of the country. The object has been to assimilate, as far as may be, the country banks in England to those in Scotland, which have long carried on all their dealings with the greatest correctness, and advantage to the public, and with the most unshaken credit. In Scotland there are twenty-six banks, three only of which are chartered banks; the remaining twenty three are of the description of those which his majesty's government are desirous of enabling individuals to establish any where in England, beyond the distance of sixty-five miles from the metropolis. Several of those Scottish banks are joint stock companies of a very extensive nature, consisting of a great number of partners: the average number of partners of which those companies are composed is between fifty and sixty. Let the House consider what an increase of security it must afford to the
162
public when so many individuals combine in the responsibility of a banking concern, and render themselves liable to be send by their legal representative. In order to induce persons to enter into them, the banks of Scotland lay down principles of banking so sound and safe, and so opposed to all illicit speculation, that in that country, where the people are certainly not much inclined to hazard their property unwisely, numbers of persons are always found ready to embark in them. In the last hundred and twenty years, during which period the pressure of circumstances has occasioned the failure of so many banking establishment in England, not one such failure has occurred in the whole of Scotland until the other day, when there was a rumour of the failure of a Scottish bank; whether true or not, I have not since been informed. Something beneficial there must be in a system which has passed so long and so safely through the many tremendous shocks to which banking property has necessarily been exposed. By bringing the system on which the banks of Scotland are founded into this country. We shall indirectly give a great increase of strength to our paper circulation, without restraining private bankers from rendering their capital a source of profit to it utmost extent. I ought to have mentioned before, and it its proper place, that, in order to induce the Bank of England to consent to the surrender of this portion of their chartered rights, it is proposed to extend their charter for ten years, merely in as far as it is applicable to the local circulation of London and its neighbourhood, without affecting, however, any of the subsisting arrangements between the Bank and the public.
Having stated so much to the committee on two of the great branches of this subject namely the measures which it is proposed to take for the mitigation of the agricultural distress, and those in aid of the general circulation of the country; and having, as I hope sufficiently opened the views of his majesty's government on those points, I proceed now to call its attention to what has been done, and to what it is in contemplation further to do, in regard to our financial arrangements. In the first place, Sir, let us look at what has been the result of our legislative enactments in the present session, on the subject of finance, the consideration of which will pave the way for a statement

163
of the further measures which his majesty's government mean to propose, growing out of the support that parliament has so wisely given to public credit; for it is unquestionably true, that the present state of the money market and of credit generally, arises from the course of policy which parliament lately pursued, and which was dictated by so enlightened and uncompromising a spirit.
Sir, it is fresh in the memory of the committee, that his majesty's government having reduced the estimates for the year by the sum of two millions; parliament, after satisfying itself of the existence of an effective surplus of five millions of revenue, over all the ordinary, and even over all the extraordinary charges of the year; and of the consequent realization of the object which had long been contemplated, and out of which it was foreseen would grow a solid and improving condition of public credit, did, after further, and most mature examination of the subject, the result of which was a corroboration of its former opinion with regard to the expediency of applying that surplus to the maintenance of a sinking fund, pledge itself so to apply that surplus, thereby effectually supporting the public credit, with which all the best interests of the country are inseparably connected.
On the faith of the determination taken by parliament upon this subject, his majesty's government felt that it might be permitted to my right hon. friend, the chancellor of the exchequer, to embark in one of the most gigantic enterprises of finance of which the history of the world affords an instance; namely, that of paying off 155,000,000 l. of the public debt, either by actual payment, or, by means arising out of the public credit. I am confident that if, at any former period, it had been declared that, in the course of six weeks, a measure of such magnitude could be carried into effect, not only without any convulsion, but without any serious discontent or inconvenience—the assertion would have been treated as idle and illusory. Nothing has happened in the whole history of the country, which so clearly exhibits the powers of the nation, and the almost endless resources which result from the stability of its credit and the character of its government, when those resources are wielded under the sanction and authority of parliament, and are not broken down by unsound or speculative principles of policy,
164
—than the fact we have lately witnessed, that such an extensive operation has been accomplished without the least apparent difficulty or embarrassment. By that single operation—by the conversion of so great a mass of our debt into a stock bearing, a reduced interest—the people have been at once relieved from an annual burthen amounting to 1,300,000 l. But that is not all. It is not the immediate fruits of the measure, great as they are, that are so important as the precedent which its execution has established, of a successful reduction of the interest of our debt. How much more easy comparatively, will be the task of my right hon. friend hereafter, or of any of his successors, when it shall be considered advisable to proceed further with the reduction of the interest of the debt, from their having such a precedent to refer to. In fact, the country may henceforward consider the reduction of the interest of its debt to be a safe and practicable operation, whenever the price of the funds, and the concurrence of favourable circumstances, may render such an undertaking again expedient.
I wish now to call the attention of the committee to a measure, the outline of which I am about to explain, not altogether resting on the same principle as that to which I have just adverted; but, still, one of the greatest importance, and which, I hope, the committee will consider to be fully warranted by present circumstances. My right hon. friend, the chancellor of the exchequer, has prepared certain resolutions, which he will move on Wednesday or Friday next, with a view of bringing this new measure, to which I have alluded, under the consideration of parliament. It is his wish, however, from its bearing upon the general state of the country, that I should open the outline of his plan this evening; and, previous to doing so, I feel that I ought to state why that measure is only now brought forward; and why, if it be one which his majesty's government think expedient and desirable, it was not introduced at an earlier period of the session.
Sir, the measure to which I have alluded can be proposed with a fair prospect of success, only at a period when the public credit is in a flourishing condition. The wisdom and magnanimity of the House of Commons having resisted all the shocks which have been levelled against public credit in the course of the present session,

165
the country now reposes perfect confidence in the stability of that credit, which parliament has in so decisive a tone declared its determination to support.
Although, therefore, the principle of this new measure has been for some time under the consideration of my right hon. friend, he could not bring it forward sooner than at the present moment. It was not only impossible that he should submit it to the opinion of parliament before the public credit became fairly and unequivocally established, but it was also inexpedient that he should do so before the bill which was so mainly conducive to that end—I mean the bill for reducing the five per cents—had been completely carried into execution. For, Sir, it could not be foreseen what difficulties might have occurred in the execution of that measure, to contend with which, all the exertions of the state, and all the means which -his majesty's government could bring forward, might have been exclusively necessary to be applied. Until, therefore, the provisions of that bill were executed, and until the money market had thereby become completely tranquillized, it was by no means advisable to embark parliament and the country in a new measure of the extent and complexity of that which, agreeably to the wish of my right hon. friend, I am about briefly to describe.
Sir, the committee will allow me to say, that I by no means wish them to consider this proposal as a parallel to that which has recently been adopted. The measure which has already been executed has been productive of an absolute saving to the country. By that great financial operation, the reduction of the interest of a large portion of the public debt, a positive annual saving has been effected, in behalf of the country, of above 1,300,000 l. The plan which I am now going to describe, is a new and more convenient arrangement of our existing means, rather than a creation of new means.
The measure, then, which my right hon. friend intends to submit to the consideration of parliament, is—to place the liquidation of a large portion of the present expenditure of the country, namely, the dead expense, as it is called, of our naval and military establishment, on a different footing from that on which it now stands. The committee are aware that this dead expense is an immense annual charge, consisting of officers' pensions, retired
166
allowances, the pensions of the widows of officers, and the half-pay, under the heads of navy, army, and ordnance; amounting altogether to about 5,000,000 l. per annum. This amount is certainly liable to progressive decrease from the deaths of individuals; but having been granted by the liberality and gratitude of parliament to meritorious individuals, for services performed, it is a charge, generally speaking, which rests on the good faith of parliament, and which must be annually provided for as a debt of the state. It is; however, a debt which stands in a very inconvenient relation to the general arrangements of the country. I am sure the committee will feel that nothing is more calculated to mislead the public, or embarrass our discussions, than this vast charge of 5,000,000 l., which seems to belong to our annual expenditure; but which, in fact, has nothing to do with that expenditure, although, historically, it will be very proudly connected with the state. The effect of the actual arrangement is to make the public think that the national expenditure is seventeen or eighteen millions per annum, when in fact it does not exceed twelve or thirteen millions. If this charge, then, can be separated from the general expenditure; if it can be treated as a debt incurred rather than as a service to be provided for, although in that case the real amount of expenditure will be the same, yet things will be placed on their proper footing, and the public in this country, and the world, will better know what is the actual situation of our affairs. It is, I think, most desirable to look at the question of this dead expense in the view I have here explained; and parliament is, on all sound principles of prudence and policy, entitled to deal with it in a different manner from any other branch of the national expenditure. It has grown out of a war perfectly unexampled in history. The exertions of this nation, while that contest continued, were of a gigantic description. Those exertions were made for our own preservation, and for the deliverance of Europe; and they were made upon such a scale, that it cannot in all common probability be supposed, that England will ever be required to repeat them.
We are justified, therefore, in dealing with this charge on a distinct principle, applicable to itself alone. We are warranted in looking upon it as a debt sui

167
generis, not likely to recur, at least in any degree to the same extent. For some time past, his majesty's government have been anxiously employed in considering all the regulations and provisions out of which this dead expense has arisen; and although they have not the slightest intention—and I wish this to be most distinctly understood—of interfering with the interests of those-who are already provided for by although they feel that the rights of the parties who at present enjoy a provision under this head should be held sacred, yet they do not consider themselves to be so fettered, as not to be entitled to propose such prospective modifications, consistent with sound principles of justice and of economy, as may hereafter prevent the charge from accumulating as it has latterly done, to an amount altogether incompatible with the beneficial administration of the affairs of this or of any other country.
This charge amounts (as I have already stated), at the present moment, to not less than 5,000,000 l. If the committee will go back, and compare the present amount of it with its amount in 1792, that year with the expense of which it has lately been so much the habit to contrast our existing expenditure, they will find, by the Report of the Committee of Finance, Which investigated the expenditure of the country at that period, that the like expenditure did not exceed 650,000 l., notwithstanding all the increase which it had necessarily received during the American and the preceding wars. The committee, then, must see how rapid has been the growth of this charge during the last war, as compared with its increase during former wars. Nine years after the termination of the American war, it amounted only to 650,000 l.; at the present moment, the country has to sustain a burthen, consequent on the late war, of 5,000,000 l.; arising in a great degree, certainly, out of the peculiar circumstances of the contest in which we were engaged, but also, mainly (and I state it without intending to cast any obloquy or imputation on any one), from the nature of the regulations which were adopted during that war, in regard to pensions and allowances. It is, therefore, clearly the duty of his majesty's government to protect the country from the future growth of so burthensome a system; and we feel, in consequence, the more justified in dealing with this charge in the way which I am about to deseribe.
168
In the first place, Sir, let us consider what the precise nature of the charge is. It is an annuity of 5,000,000 l. on the lives of numerous parties, some of whom are young, and some old; and it is, therefore, an annuity of varying amount and uncertain duration. It may be considered, in fact, as an annuity beginning at the sum of 5,000,000 l., but subject of course to the usual decrease, according to the calculations contained in tables of the value and duration of human life, it appears that this annuity may be carried on to a period of seventy years; although, towards the close of that period, as the number of individuals living would be very few, the payments would of course materially decrease. Now, the nature of the operation which I am about to suggest to the House is, that parliament should make provision for a change in the mode of these payments, by entering into a contract with parties, who, in consideration of a fixed annual payment on the part of the public, shall agree to supply such a sum in each year as, upon calculation, may be required to effectuate to the survivors the payments which they will be entitled to receive. This species of operation, the committee will observe, is purely financial, and will in no degree alter the position of individuals at present receiving pensions and allowances, in their relation to parliament or to the Crown, I should most strongly deprecate, upon constitutional grounds, the adoption of any proposal, the effect of which would be to render those individuals the pensioners of any large commercial company. Such a change would entirely destroy the true constitutional character of the connexion of those individuals with the Crown. If, also, the arrangement in question were in any way to affect the functions of parliament in its control over the national expenditure, or to supersede its power of voting these public charges annually, it would certainly be highly objectionable. But, Sir, the plan to be proposed by my right hon. friend, is not open to any of these objections. It is strictly a financial arrangement, in no degree changing the position of the parties interested, in no degree interfering with the constitutional control of parliament over the public expenditure, but merely altering the mode in which the public resources are to be obtained, and by which the charge in question is to be defrayed and distributed equally over an

169
extended period of years, instead of falling with excessive pressure on the earlier years of the series.
His majesty's government then conceive, that, under the very peculiar circumstances of this case, they shall be justified in proposing an exception from the usual practice, if, on sound financial principles, they can adopt some system, the effect of which will be, to distribute this charge over a certain number of years, and thereby to lighten its immediate pressure. The number of years which it is proposed to take as the proper extent of time over which the charge may be advantageously distributed, is forty-five. That is the number of years which was recognised by Mr. Pitt as the period within which, by the reservation of one per cent on the capital of every loan, the debt created by that loan would be liquidated. This period, then, being fixed at forty-five years, it remains to be determined what sum the public ought to pay during that time; or, what equal and invariable sum the public ought annually to pay for five and forty years, to induce any parties contracting to undertake to pay annually the unequal and variable amount of the charge under consideration.—I should add, that it is not in the contemplation of his majesty's government to contract for a longer term than forty-five years; because, after the expiration of that term, the annual payments upon the surviving lives must of course be so small, that it is not worth while to embarrass the present transaction by any reference to them.
I am sure the committee will feel that I cannot be expected at the present moment to state very accurately the details which are connected with this part of the subject; I will content myself with endeavouring to give the committee a notion of what will be the probable working of the plan. It would appear that, by granting a fixed annuity for forty-five years of from 2,500,000 l. to 3,000,000 l., if parliament shall think fit to sanction the measure, a contract may be made, for the payment every year, into his majesty's Exchequer, of the sum presumably necessary to defray the charge in question, according to a schedule to be constructed from the table of lives. The effect of such an arrangement with respect to the public will be this:—that if the fixed annuity to be so granted by parliament should, for instance, amount to
170
2,800,000 l., the present total of the charge being 5,000,000 l., the immediate saving to the country would be 2,200,000 l.; and consequently parliament would be enabled to dispose of that saving of 2,200,000 l. at its discretion. The operation of the measure will be:—that for the first sixteen years the contractors will have to make good the difference between the fixed payment of 2,800,000 l., and the sum required to discharge these payments, as set forth in the schedule, thereby, pro tanto, operating a relief to our annual expenditure. About the sixteenth year it will probably become a balanced account between the sums received by the contractors and the sums to be paid by them;—and from the sixteenth to the forty-fifth, or last year, the payment by the contractors, as lives fall in, will very much diminish, and they will be reimbursed for the great advances made by them at the commencement of the transaction.
Sir, I am the more anxious for the success of this measure, because, if parliament think fit to sanction it, and his majesty's government should be enabled to carry it into execution, I am very sanguine in the hope that we may be at once enabled to realize the project which the hon. member for Corfe Castle proposed to the House at an early period of the present session. I confess I am very much inclined to go along with that hon. gentleman in his opinion, that unless we are enabled to tie up the 5,000,000 l. of sinking fund, to accumulate at compound interest, until it shall amount at least to a sinking fund of one per cent. on the whole capital of the debt, which was the principle proposed by Mr. Pitt at its formation, we shall very imperfectly execute the intentions of parliament as expressed in repeated declarations, and very much fall short of the original object for which that fund was destined.
I am sure, then, it must be very satisfactory to the House to learn, that the period may not be very remote, when the public will begin to reap those salutary advantages, every year increasing in value, which always result from transactions like those to which parliament has lately given its sanction, founded on justice and good faith, and conducted with prudence and honour. By a calculation which has been recently made, it appears that, if parliament shall determine that the 5,000,000 l. is to increase at compound, instead of continuing to go on

171
at simple interest, it will arrive, in the course of ten years, at the maximum which it is at present intended it shall attain, namely, one per cent on the whole of the national debt. In ten years, the sinking fund at compound interest, will amount to about 7,100,000 l.; which will be full one per cent on the capital of the debt, because by that time the operation of the sinking fund will have reduced the debt above seventy millions of its present nominal capital, which will then be about 730,000,000 l., instead of 800,000,000 l:— after the tenth year there will be a surplus on the sinking fund, at the disposal of parliament, of about 290,000 l., in every year, applicable to any purpose to which parliament may choose to destine it: at the conclusion of the forty-five years, that sum will amount to about 10,000,000 l. of clear annual revenue. The country, therefore, will have from the tenth to the forty-fifth year of this period, a growing surplus, accumulating from that fund, of about 290,000 l. a year; making in the whole about 10,000,000 l.; and in the thirty-eighth year of that period the existing long annuities amounting to 1,300,000 per annum, will fall in. With these prospects before them, I conceive that there can be no hesitation on the part of the House, in tying up the present sinking fund, so that it may accumulate at compound interest.
The question next to be considered is—what will it be prudent and advisable for parliament to do with the annual saving that will be effected by the proposed plan? Supposing that the sum should be that which I have already stated (but in stating which I beg not to be understood as absolutely pledging myself to accuracy in the amount), supposing that by making a contract for a fixed annuity of 2,800,000 l., the arrangement should be completed, and should leave at the disposal of parliament 2,200,000 l. of annual revenue, in what way ought that sum to be disposed of? Now, Sir, with all my anxiety, and with all the anxiety of my right hon. friend, to remit taxes whenever it becomes practicable to remit them, I am not prepared to say that we can safely go so far as to propose the remission of taxes to the full amount of 2,200,000 l. By the adoption, however, of the proposed measure by parliament, they will be enabled to give, even in the present session, considerable relief to the country. Sir, God forbid that I should attempt to de-
172
lude the House by stating that the remission of 1,800,000 l. of taxes, which is the amount that it is probable my right hon. friend may propose to remit, appropriating the remaining 400,000 l. in the manner which I shall afterwards explain, can effect any thing like a complete relief to the agricultural interest. It is gratifying, however, to know, that such a remission must be very beneficial to consumers generally, and to the agriculturist therefore among the rest, in his character as a consumer. In that way it certainly will operate as a relief to the agriculturist, whose distress has never been denied by his majesty's government, and which distress it has always been, and still is, their most anxious wish to diminish. When, therefore, I say that, in the event of the adoption of the proposed measure, parliament, may, even in the present session, afford relief to the country to a considerable extent, I mean a moderate and a rational relief. I do not mean that we are competent to work miracles, by which alone the distress in question could be immediately and completely removed; but I mean, that we may give such aid as will be very generally beneficial, at the same time that it will not prejudicially affect those great financial principles, the maintenance of which parliament has already declared to be indispensable to the national welfare and prosperity.
Having thus stated to the committee the relief which his majesty's government earnestly hope may with prudence be afforded, I must again conjure the House not to look at the question of remission of taxation otherwise than through the medium of this measure; from which a clear surplus will accrue, disposable by parliament, after having set apart, without prejudice to the sinking fund, adequate funds for meeting the dead charge throughout the entire period of forty-five years: adhering strictly to this principle, I have no doubt but that the plan may be satisfactorily carried into effect in the course of the present session of parliament, and that the legislature may thereby be enabled to relieve the country from taxation to the amount which I have mentioned.
My right hon. friend is not, as I before stated, at present prepared to appropriate the whole of the 2,200,000 l. to the remission of taxation; because, by so doing, he would violate justice and good faith. For, although it is perfectly true that

173
5,000,000 l. is the present amount of the dead expense, yet the whole of the saving which will arise by the death of the parties now entitled to these pensions, will not accrue to the public even upon the present system, for it is obvious that pensions must, from time to time, be granted to individuals who served in the late war; to the widows of officers who may die whilst on half-pay; and to the widows even of those who have married since the peace. His majesty's government, therefore, feel that they should not act in a way at all consistent with a due regard to principle, if, in their haste to afford that relief to the country which they are bound to give when the opportunity is offered to them, they were to omit to make the necessary provision for meeting this growing expense. We propose, therefore, out of the sum of 2,200,000, which I have taken as the whole saving on the measure, to make the necessary provision for the growing expense which will probably arise between the present moment and the end of the period of the next ten years; at which time, if parliament shall now agree to tie up the 5,000,000 l. of sinking fund at compound interest, it will arrive at its maximum, yielding, as I have already stated, an annual surplus of about 290,000 l.; and, in two or three years from that time, the amount of surplus revenue so liberated will be sufficient to provide for the charge of the growing expense above mentioned, without interference with any other financial measure calculated to support the public credit.
His majesty's government have considered this question with as much accuracy as is possible on an abstruse point of calculation, in which there are no very precise data to go upon; and we have reason to believe that an annuity of from 300,000 l. to 400,000 l., for forty-five years, will completely cover the dead expense that is likely to accrue, over its present amount, in the course of the next ten years. If that be so, the general result will be as follows:—The present dead expense is 5,000,000 l. If we can contract for a fixed annuity of 2,800,000 l., the saving will be 2,200,000 l.; from which, if we deduct the 300,000 l. or 400,000 l. which has been estimated as the sum that will be sufficient to meet the growth of the said expense for the next ten years, there will remain between 1,800,000 l. and 1,900,000 l., which may be devoted to the
174
repeal of taxation, without the abandonment of any principle which ought to be maintained. But here I must again entreat the House and the country to recollect, that this remission of taxes can be afforded only, if the arrangement which my right hon. friend will have the honour to propose can be carried into effect.
Sir, it would be highly objectionable were I to say any thing as to the particular taxes which, in that case, it may be desirable to repeal. This is a point which ought always to remain undecided until the very moment at which the repeal is proposed. Many suggestions will no doubt be made on the subject; but it would be an act of the grossest injustice, and leading to the most unfair and injurious speculations upon particular articles of commerce, if any member of his majesty's government were, in this stage of the proceeding, to drop a hint upon the subject. And, indeed hon. gentlemen who are not members of his majesty's government, ought to be very cautious how they prematurely raise an argument upon this point, lest they should unwarily occasion similar mischief. If, however, parliament shall sanction the proceeding which his majesty's government recommend to them; if we are thus enabled to relieve the country to the amount which I have described, the hon. and learned gentleman opposite will find that the total amount of taxes which will then have been remitted in the course of two years, will not fall very far short of what was contemplated in his own plan. Parliament have already repealed the husbandry-horse tax, amounting to nearly half a million; and a shilling a bushel on the malt-tax, amounting to a million and a half; and if, in addition to those sums, we are enabled, without any violation of principle or good faith, to take off 1,800,000 l. more, that will make a total remission of taxes of above 3,700,000 l. in the course of two years. It must also be recollected that, if these effects should result from the proposition of my right hon. friend, they will so result, not only without any thing. having been taken from the sinking fund,, but coupled with the determination to tie up that fund at compound interest, until it shall reach the amount of one per cent on the nominal capital of the debt. What a picture does this statement present of the resources of the country!
In making it, Sir, I have not referred to our increasing revenue, nor to any further

175
diminution of expenditure. On this latter point, however, I beg leave to say that, notwithstanding the reduction, which has already been made in the present year, of two millions sterling, his majesty's government are not disposed to relax their efforts at retrenchment, although, in truth, the expenditure has been pared down too closely to warrant us in holding out the hope of relief to any great extent from that quarter. When, to the above statement I add that we have the prospect of being able, at no very distant period, to effect a farther reduction in the interest of the higher portions of the national debt, it is evident that, if parliament will but remain true to itself, and to the best interests of the country, by resolutely maintaining the public credit, we may look forward, in the course of a certain period of years, to a very considerable diminution indeed of the public burthens.
Sir, it remains for me to proceed to those topics which it more particularly belongs to us to discuss on the present occasion; and to offer such suggestions to the committee as grow out of the report of the select committee on the distress of agriculture. I shall now do this as shortly as I can; as there will be other opportunities for entering more fully into the details of the subject.
The first question which must naturally attract our attention is, whether this be a seasonable time for bringing under the consideration of parliament a subject of so much difficulty, and on which there exists so great a variety of opinions? Even the committee themselves seem to have entertained considerable doubts on this point; as they have not charged their chairman to make any proposition to parliament, grounded on their report. For myself, however, I must say, that when, on a former occasion, I ventured to state to the House that I thought it highly desirable that such a committee as the agricultural committee should be re-appointed, it was not with the slightest wish on my part to throw off from the shoulders of his majesty's government the responsibility attached to the duty which naturally belongs to them, of proposing to parliament any measures, however difficult or great their importance, which the welfare of the country might seem to require; but I did so rather with a view of taking the benefit of the discussions in that committee; in order that his majesty's government might be enabled to form a more
176
accurate and comprehensive judgment with respect to the details of any measure which it might become necessary to propose, and that they might also have an opportunity of ascertaining and carrying along with them, the sentiments of those hon. gentlemen who are most competent to form an opinion on such subjects. That, Sir, was the object which I had in view in proposing to parliament the reappointment of the agricultural committee; and I had no disposition whatever to impose on that committee the task of submitting, from themselves, any proposition to the House.
I certainly feel, not only as one of that committee, but as a member of his majesty's government, that, whatever inconvenience there may be in undertaking to make any proposal on the subject, I should not discharge my public duty if I were to shrink from the task: and I hope that, in coming forward on this occasion, I shall be considered by the House with the less disfavour, from my having received many pretty strong hints in the committee, as several of the members thereof can testify, that it would be considered an extraordinary dereliction of public duty, if his majesty's government were to suffer such a report as the agricultural report to lie on the table of the House of Commons, without proposing to parliament the adoption of some measure founded upon it. In fact, Sir, I hold this to have been most sound and correct advice; for, although there undoubtedly exists, both within and without these walls, much difference of opinion on this important and interesting subject, yet I am persuaded that we can never hope to bring the public mind to the consideration of it with more calm and temperate feelings than at the present moment. Sir, at this moment, it is purely a speculative question. The existing law prohibits the importation of corn until the price in this country shall be eighty shillings a quarter. It is now below fifty shillings; and there are no indications whatever of any sudden rise. So that what is now before us is rather an abstract contemplation of what it may be expedient to provide for some remote and uncertain period, than a proposition from which any of the parties interested can expect to derive immediate benefit, or to suffer any present inconvenience.
A noble lord opposite has this evening called the report of the agricultural com-

177
mittee paltry and powerless; and has spoken of it altogether in very contemptuous terms. Now, the House will do the committee, and will do me the justice to recollect, that, when I first opened the subject to parliament, I said that I was quite aware the legislature could do nothing to remedy the immediate disease—that they could do nothing to affect the present price of corn, which was the evil complained of; that the only ground on which I recommended any interference at all, was, that there were circumstances in the existing law which might work much mischief at some future period, if they were not altered; and that this was the time to alter the law, when there was no conflict of immediate interests.
If, Sir, there be this strong motive for making a change in the law, I certainly continue to think that there never was a moment at which the subject could be discussed with more temper, with a greater absence of heat, and with less embarrassment from strong and interested feeling. Not that I deny that strong feelings may be entertained on this question. On the contrary, I know that very strong and I will add very erroneous impressions, exist with respect to it; but, were it only to give the good sense of the country an opportunity of manifesting itself on the subject, I should be ready to bring it under the consideration of parliament. I am by no means disposed, even if I had the power, to do violence to public feeling, or to propose any thing in the expediency of which the public mind would reluctantly acquiesce; but it is absolutely necessary that the country should be undeceived with respect to the numerous false principles and false impressions that have gone abroad on this subject; for never have I known a question on which there has appeared so much, not only of mistaken principle, but of absolute falsification of fact. There is likewise the strong motive to which I have already alluded for endeavouring to adopt some measure that may guard against the future contingent evil of the law at present in force. On that point the differences of opinion are so narrow and limited, that I confess I entertain a sanguine expectation that, even in the present session of parliament, a bill may be passed to avert the impending calamity; for I assert without fear of contradiction, that the degree of distress to which the existing law, if it remain unaltered, may,
178
at some future period, give rise, cannot be rated lower than that of the most serious national calamity.
Gentlemen are aware that, as the law at present stands, the ports must necessarily open for the importation of foreign corn, whenever wheat in this country shall reach the price of eighty shillings a quarter. Now, I believe there was not a second opinion in the agricultural committee, as to the evils which, in the present state of the continental market, must result from the unrestrained importation which, in that event, would immediately take place. No member of that committee went further in allowing the extent of that danger than the hon. member for Portarlington. If, in the present glut of the foreign markets, any unexpected occurrence were to open our ports, such might be the immensity of the supply poured into this country during the ensuing year—that supply being wholly unchecked and uncontrolled—that no man can describe or imagine the extent of agricultural ruin that might not be inflicted on this country; not merely for that year, but for years to come.—Three, four, or five millions of quarters might be imported; indeed, it is impossible to calculate the amount of the influx. Cheap corn must be poured in with a profusion beyond all example; and, as the supply would thus be out of all proportion beyond the demand, there it would be for many years to come, a dead weight on our agriculture, bearing it down to utter ruin.
This, however, is the most gloomy view of the subject. I do not mean to say, that there is much probability, that corn in this country will soon rise to such a price as to open the ports and admit the influx of foreign corn. If the House were to ask me what I thought were the chances of such an event, I would reply that undoubtedly they were largely against the ports opening in the course of next year; that the probability was, that they would not open in the course of the following year, or even in the year after. So adequate is the present principle of protection, that, in my opinion, nothing can open the port short of that species of dearth, which must open them, even if the protecting price were a hundred shillings instead of eighty. But, Sir, it is no answer to make to our constituents that, because the chances are against the agriculture of the country

179
being ruined in the next or the following years, that therefore we will not make any provision for its safety. For, although there is at present every prospect of an abundant harvest, some circumstance may occur such as had very nearly opened the ports last year. If by any contingency the ports were next year to be thus opened, and if the import of foreign corn shall not be restrained in the mean time by some adequate regulation, the interests of agriculture must inevitably be ruined. It behoves parliament, therefore, not to slumber on its post, when there exists even the slightest possibility of such an event; and his majesty's government would abandon their duty, if they shrunk from the task of proposing measures to guard against its occurrence. However difficult and embarrassing that duty may be, I am satisfied that whenever a government throws itself upon the good sense of the people of England, it will make a safe passage through all obstacles, even in the worst of times. Whatever differences exist as to the details of the subject, they appear to me to lie in such a narrow compass, that if the House will agree to the general principle, and the question shall become merely one of the quantum of duty, I am prepared to agree to any of the various propositions made to us, rather than expose the country to the terrible visitation of an indefinite quantity of foreign corn being poured into it without check or limit.
I will now state, as shortly as possible, the grounds on which I entertain a sanguine expectation that all the differences of opinion which exist, are such as may be so easily grappled with and overcome, as to enable us to pass a bill upon the subject in the course of the present session of parliament. In fact, there is very little difference of opinion in the view taken of this subject by the intelligent part of the community. All agree in considering the existing law defective in this respect, that it allows a sudden transition from absolute monopoly to unrestrained importation;—not to free trade, in the sense of the hon. member for Portarlington; for if that were its effect, I should not feel such weighty objections to it, being, as I am, the advocate of a free trade, as nearly as circumstances will permit, under such regulated duties, as may protect the country from danger. We are all, then, agreed not to remain under the present regulations, and thereby
180
continue to expose agriculture to the evils attendant on a sudden and unrestrained inundation of foreign corn. If, therefore, we are agreed upon that point, and also in the opinion that, to regulate the supply to be imported, by limiting the quantity, would be matter of extreme difficulty, the regulation by duty is evidently the only practicable principle of restraint that is left; and in truth, therefore, the main question is the quantum, of duty which it may be fit and proper to impose. It really comes to little more than to decide how we shall, in the committee on the bill, fill up the blanks; and, however important I freely allow these clauses to be, I think they cannot open a very wide field for discussion. Sir, after attentively considering the subject, it appears to me that we may divide those who, although agreeing in the general principle of a duty differ with respect to its amount, into two classes; one class wishing to carry the duty from twenty shillings to forty shillings per quarter, while the other class is of opinion, that a duty of from ten shillings to twenty shillings per quarter will be sufficient. If I am asked in which class I place myself, I answer that, for reasons which I shall hereafter explain, I must, without hesitation, avow myself to belong to the latter class.
And here, before I observe upon the particular scale of duties which it may be proper to adopt, I ought to observe that there is another very important point upon which all parties seem to be agreed. We are all agreed that there is something in the present state of the corn-market, all over the world, which not only justifies, but imposes upon parliament, the necessity of treating this great question upon a principle applicable to the present moment, although such a proceeding may be found to require a revision, when matters shall be restored to their natural condition. This principle was distinctly recognized by the agricultural committee of last session; it has also been distinctly admitted by the hon. member for Portarlington. It is enough for us to know that there is a glut of corn every where, not only to justify but enjoin us to act upon a system of adequate precaution. Under such circumstances, it becomes just and wise, and even indispensable, to legislate upon a scale of duties that certainly would not be applicable if the agriculture of the world were in its natural state.
Let us examine a little the history of

181
the division of sentiment on this subject, and consider what it is that can make different minds, agreeing upon the general principle of affording protection to agriculture by a duty on the importation of foreign corn, nevertheless take so different a view of its application, that certain individuals shall propose a duty of from 10 s. to 20 s. a quarter; while others shall propose a duty of from 20 s. to 40 s. a quarter. Nay, there is a committee of gentlemen sitting, not far from this House, who call upon parliament to impose at once a duty of 40 s.
Now, Sir, the individuals who thus call for a duty of 40 s. a quarter must surely have entirely put out of their consideration that there are other charges affecting the importer of foreign corn, besides the charge to be imposed in the shape of duty. Let us consider what must be the charge on the importer of foreign corn before that corn becomes liable to the payment of any duty at all. This point was, I think, at first much underrated by the agricultural committee; and, in fact, it was the due consideration afterwards afforded to it, which gave a new bias to the opinions of a great portion of the members of that committee, I am sure I am justified in saying, that if foreign corn were brought to this country, and were to find a market immediately, it could not arrive under a charge to the importer of less than from 10 s. to 12 s. per quarter. Transport and insurance would amount to from 5s. to 7s. per quarter; and, allowing to the importing merchant the ordinary commercial profit of 10 per cent, that, assuming the value of the imported corn, including charges, to be 50 s. per quarter, would amount to 5s. more. Such would be the charge upon the corn if it were to be sold immediately on its arrival in the ports of this country; but, if it were to be in the warehouses only for a year (which on an average would be a very short period) a farther charge of 5s. per quarter would be incurred, and of course of 5s. per quarter more, for every subsequent year, during which it might remain unsold. Suppose, however, that we take 10 s. as the minimum of the importer's certain expenses, and 5s. as the average contingent charge on the corn remaining unsold, can any persons who do not aim at effectuating a prohibition under the disguise of a duty, think of calling upon parliament to impose a duty of 40 s. a quarter upon an article subject to a charge of 10 s.
182
or 12 s., even if sold immediately, and which may be two or three years in the warehouses, incurring a farther charge of five shillings a-year? Parliament, I am sure, must be composed of materials very different from those which now constitute it, before it will lend itself to such a delusion upon the farmer as to impose a duty of that amount—a duty which it would be impossible to maintain. It would inevitably be repealed, at the very moment when the farmers might deceive themselves with the hope of its coming into operation. It is a proposition which stands on no practical basis; for, it would be as much as to say that we should never have any foreign corn, until corn in this country had reached a famine price, of above a hundred shillings per quarter.
But, Sir, when we come to consider the question in connexion with the more moderate duty proposed, I am prepared to contend that that moderate duty will be much more effective and powerful than some gentlemen seem disposed to admit. There exists another delusion, against which I feel it necessary to protest. We have been told that foreign corn, at all times and under all circumstances, can be delivered in the London market, with a fair profit to the grower and importer, at 35 s. per quarter. Whence, I ask, can so absurd a notion have originated? I do not mean to deny that, if you proceed to buy foreign corn at a very favourable moment, such as the present, when it is almost a drug in the market, you may be able to procure and import a limited quantity at 85 s. per quarter. But can any body be so blind as to suppose that, if our ports were open, any considerable supply could be procured at such a price, or that the grower can have a profit upon it when it is sold at that rate? The truth is, that the foreign agriculturists are in the same state as our own. They are suffering at least as much as we do. The foreign agriculturist sells his corn at the present moment at a loss not less severe than that which is sustained by the English farmer, who sends his corn to Mark-lane, and gets only 47 s. per quarter for it. It is a gross and dangerous delusion, therefore, to hold out to the country that, at all times, and under all circumstances, foreign wheat can be profitably imported at 35 s.; and, persons who are not better informed on the subject, ought not to attempt to lead the public mind on this question. It is evidently impossible that the foreign

183
grower can afford to furnish corn of a good quality at any such price. The average price of corn in the market at Dantzic, for the last seven years, without at all taking into the account the charge that must attend importation to this country, has been 48 s. per quarter., Now, to impose upon, the public, by asserting that there is any danger of a permanent competition with out own corn in foreign corn imported at the price of 35 s. per quarter, is such an error, that if it were for nothing more than to undeceive those who have been thus misled, I should think it the duty of his majesty's government to bring the present subject under the consideration of parliament.
In reverting to the other, and, as I conceive, to the much more reasonable class of individuals, I must, in the first place, observe that a great and very natural doubt prevailed in the agricultural committee, whether, in point of fact, the state of men's minds upon this important question was not at present such as to render it difficult to do any thing that would be considered satisfactory. From that source arose the reluctance of the committee to instruct their chairman to propose to parliament any particular measure, however inclined they were to recommend that measure which I am now about to propose; and which they very generally agreed to be, at all events, preferable to the existing law.
The hon. member for Portarlington's proposition is, to impose a permanently fixed duty of 20 s. per quarter, descending gradually to 10 s., by a diminution of one shilling per quarter in each year. The proposal which I shall have the honour to submit to the House, is—to impose, in the first instance, a duty of 12 s. per quarter, with an additional duty of 5s. during the first three months of importation, when the average price of corn is at, or under 80 s.; and a duty of 5s., with a like additional duty of 5s., when the price of corn is between 80 s. and 85 s., after which an increase duty of one shilling only to be taken. And I understand that a right hon. friend of mine near me has another suggestion to make, that is, to impose, at once, a permanently fixed duty of 15 s. per quarter. The House will have the benefit of hearing the arguments of my right hon. friend on the point, and it will Test with them to decide whether this permanently fixed duty of 15 s. is preferable to the fixed duty of 12 s., with the addi-
184
tional floating duty of 5s. shillings, which I recommend; or better than the duty of 20 s. descending annually by one shilling until it falls to 10 s., proposed by the hon. member for Portarlington. For myself although adhering in preference to my own, I am perfectly willing to adopt any one of the propositions, to which parliament may be disposed to give its sanction, as infinitely preferable to the existing law; and I am now desirous of making a few observations as to what will be the real effect of any of them in protecting the agriculture of the country.
Sir, we have heard so much of parliament having done nothing, and of the agricultural committee having done nothing, to give protection to agriculture, that one would really imagine the agricultural interest was, at this moment, suffering under an import of foreign corn, whereas the price of corn is 30 s. per quarter below that, at which the ports can be opened! It is very unfortunate that those persons who draw up the petitions which are presented to parliament on this subject, will still return, in so many instances, to those misconceptions and inaccuracies which ought no longer to exist. They seem to suppose that protection means price; and that parliament has some charm by which it can give them the price they desire. Parliament, Sir, does not possess any such, magic power; and it is really almost time for the agriculturists to cease to reproach, us for not affording them sufficient protection, when they are already secured to the extent of having the absolute monopoly of the home market, up to the price of eighty shillings.
To return to my present subject;—the only question now is, what scale of protection, in the nature of duty, we shall give to the agriculturists in the contemplation of such a state of things, as may open the ports? It is agreed on all hands that, under certain circumstances, the country at large ought to enjoy the benefit of the importation of foreign corn; but that it ought to enjoy it under a duty, which shall be so regulated as to administer the supply in proportion to the real, wants of the country. In estimating the effect of any given duty, it is obvious that it must have a tendency to bring the corn to the warehouses, but not to carry it from the warehouses to the market, unless there be a prospect of its being immediately sold at a reasonable profit. Unless there be a strong presumption that it will

185
be sold, no owner of foreign corn will deem it prudent to pay the duty upon it; duty which, once paid, cannot afterwards be drawn back. It may then be brought to the verge of the market; but, when the owner of it has to pay a duty of either twelve, fifteen, or twenty shillings per quarter upon it, besides his previous outlays, which must have required a considerable capital, he will not send it into the market, unless he expect to cover his expenses and to obtain a reasonable profit. Large importations therefore may be made from abroad, but they cannot enter into injurious competition with our native produce. They will be thrown into warehouses; there the proposed duty will keep them until the supply is actually wanted, and thus the country will be protected from the influx of an inordinate quantity of grain; the foreign corn in warehouses, when the ports again close, being as much excluded from the home market, as if it were on the continent.
In considering the amount of the protection which will be afforded to agriculture, I will suppose that parliament adopts my proposition for imposing a fixed duty of 12 s. and 5s. If I am correctly informed that the charge, including commercial profit upon the importation of foreign corn, cannot be less, as I have already observed, than 10 s. or 12 s. per quarter (and I have the best authority for the statement), to that charge, we must add the 17 s. of duty, making an abatement of from 27 to 29 shillings, in the price which the importer would obtain in the English market. Under the proposition of the hon. member for Portarlington, 3s. more, or from 30 to 32 shillings per quarter, must be deducted; so that, when wheat is selling in the English market at 80, the foreign importer, even if he sold immediately, cannot hope to get above 50 s. a quarter, all charges paid.
Now, I fear the House will begin to think that I have, notwithstanding what I before stated, placed myself in the position of proposing rather an inordinate duty; but, on due consideration, I do not believe that this will be found to be so. Let us see what would be the effect of any of these duties on the market. It is perfectly- fair to look upon the whole of the charges, and duties, as outgoings to which the importer must be subject; for they will not operate upon the consumer here, in the first instance, but rather upon the importer and the foreign grower. Suppose,
186
however, that an individual importing foreign corn, subjects himself to a charge and duty of 27 s. per quarter, before he can receive the benefit of an English market. Suppose the price in the English market to be 70 s. per quarter—at present foreign corn cannot be imported until the price is 80 s.—but suppose the price to be 70 shillings, which the agricultural committee recommend to be the import price, taking: 27 from 70, there would remain 43 shillings; which would be all that the importer would put into his pocket from the sale of his corn here. Now, although that price might afford a profit at the present, moment, yet, if things were restored to their natural level in Europe, it would not do so. It must also be recollected, that, if the ports of this country were to be open, even for the shortest time possible, the price of corn on the continent, would immediately, and considerably, advance. At the present moment, the price of good corn in the ports of the Baltic is nearer 35 per quarter than 30. Such a duty, therefore, in ordinary times, would operate as a practical prohibition against the importation of foreign corn, until the price of corn in this country had reached 70 s. per quarter or upwards. In former times, a duty of 23 s. added to the price of corn, did in fact operate as a complete exclusion. Now, although I do not believe that a duty of 12 s., with a floating duty of 5s., would operate in the same way at the present moment, on account of the, abundance of corn all over the continent and its low price, yet I am convinced that such a duty would prevent any supply from reaching the market which could prove ruinous to our agriculture.
All these, however, are points which may be more fully and satisfactorily discussed when we come to the details of the measure. When the agreement in the principle of the proposition is so general, and when the difference as to the best mode of carrying that principle into effect lies in so narrow a compass, I do not despair of arriving at some proposition which shall command, not a mere majority, but the general concurrence of the House, and a vast proportion of the public opinion in its favour. Whichever of the three plans before alluded to, may be adopted, I shall consider that by its operation we shall be placed in a state of absolute security, compared with the danger to which the country would be exposed, if, during the continuance of the existing law, any

187
contingency should suddenly raise the price of corn to eighty shillings, and thereby open the ports to an unbounded importation of foreign corn, unrestricted by the imposition of any duty whatsoever.
Having stated thus much, my hope and belief is, that there are not many obstacles in the way of the general concurrence which I confidently anticipate. I know that there is in the mind of the hon. member for Portarlington, a great reluctance to adhere to 80 s., as the price for opening the ports; and that the hon. gentleman wishes to frame such an arrangement as may allow us to make the opening price at once seventy. My right hon. friend, however, (Mr. Huskisson,) although not himself alarmed at the prospect of opening the ports, under proper regulations, at 70 s., yet considers it very necessary to proceed with caution so as not to alarm the country. In that point I perfectly concur with my right hon. friend. If something can be yielded to the state of opinion in the country, so as to avoid creating an unnecessary apprehension, I hold it to be a moral duty on our part to make the concession. I am therefore prepared to agree with my right hon. friend, and to continue to consider 80 s., in the first instance, as the price to which corn must reach before the ports can be opened, with the exception of the foreign corn now in the warehouses, to which (in consideration of its present claim, under the wording of the act of 1815, to come in at 80 s., without paying any duty,) it is proposed to extend the option of entering for home consumption, when the average price of corn shall be 70 s., paying, however, the duty. This privilege will of course not extend to any foreign corn hereafter to be imported, and will in fact prove an additional protection to the British grower, inasmuch as a limited supply of this nature may possibly prevent the ports from being opened to an indefinite influx from abroad.
With respect to the importance of returning hereafter to a fixed import price, the hon. member for Portarlington and my right hon. friend concur in recommending its entire abolition. My opinion is not so much against the principle of the change, as against the time they would select for its adoption. If, in ordinary times, and in a natural state of things, there would be no difficulty in fixing the quantum of duty necessary to protect the Interests of agriculture, without reference
188
to any import price whatever—in such circumstances, the duty, added to the expense of bringing the corn here, would amount to the same thing as fixing an import price; and would operate an adequate practical protection. But, in the present state of things, when corn is so abundant all over Europe, unless we fix an import price in order to shut the ports when the prices are unduly reduced, there would be the danger of an immense quantity of low-priced corn finding its way into the country, notwithstanding the proposed scale of duties. The present is not the moment to try such an experiment, for even were the hon. member for Portarlington, and the other hon. gentlemen who think with that hon. member, right in their opinion on this subject, they cannot persuade the country that they are so. It is far preferable, therefore, in my opinion, to satisfy the country that its interests are not hazarded, than to adopt a measure for which their minds are not yet prepared. In short, Sir, my opinion is, that, in the present unsettled state of the corn market every where, our safest course is, not to take our protection exclusively in import price as at present, or exclusively in duty, as these gentlemen would recommend; but to combine the operation of both principles in a due degree, so that a regulated intercourse may take place, subject, however, to prohibitions whenever that intercourse shall tend to lower the price beyond that point which is consistent with a reasonably remunerating price to the home grower.
Sir, I flatter myself that I have now performed the task I undertook; and that I have fully explained to the House the nature of the propositions which it is the intention of his majesty's government to submit to them. Those propositions grow out of the proceedings of the agricultural committee. The members of that committee know that, although resting on the same principles, they are not, in all their details, precisely the suggestions of my own mind. They know that, in the committee, I opened somewhat a different plan, which, however, I was perfectly ready to modify so as to obtain a general concurrence. I trust I am not making any unbecoming disclosure with respect to the proceedings in the committee, when I declare, that I never sat in a committee engaged in the consideration of a difficult subject, in which, after full deliberation, coincidence of opinion, as to

189
the object in view, was more strongly marked. We all felt that some measure was indispensably necessary; and that, under the difficult circumstances of the case, the adoption of the present proposition would be much safer, than to leave the law on the subject as it now stands.
The first resolution that I shall have the honour to propose, will relate to the million to be applied in advances on British corn, to be warehoused under certain regulations—a measure, in the execution of which, time is valuable, if it is to be adopted. This resolution, it is therefore, desirable, should be first disposed of. The second resolution will be directed to the purpose of enabling persons having foreign corn warehoused under the king's lock, to grind it for re-exportation, under such regulations as may seem to parliament effectually to prevent any part of that foreign corn, so ground into flour, from coming into home consumption. My third proposition will assume the shape of several resolutions, which will go to alter the existing law, with respect to the importation of foreign corn, by establishing a scale of duties, to be levied upon corn imported; but, which will make no alteration in the price at which the ports are in the first instance to be opened—namely 80 s. These resolutions will, however, provide that, after the ports shall have once been opened at the present price, the import price of 70 s. shall be hereafter substituted for eighty; certainly not an unreasonable change, when we consider the material alteration which has been effected in our currency since the act of 1815 was passed, when 80 s. was fixed as the import and remunerating price.
In addition to what I have already stated, it may be proper to call the attention of the House to the fact, that there is at present in the warehouses of this country a large quantity of corn, amounting to not less than between 8 and 900,000 quarters, of which 6 or 700,000 quarters are wheat. As this corn has been imported under the existing law, good faith requires, especially under the particular wording of
1. "This it is the opinion of this Committee, that his majesty be enabled to direct Exchequer bills, to an amount not exceeding one million, to be issued to commissioners in Great Britain, to be by them advanced under certain regulations and restriction, whenever the average price of wheat shall be under 60 s. per quarter, upon such corn, the growth of the United Kingdom, as shall be deposited in fit and proper warehouses.
2. "That it is expedient to permit the holders of foreign corn now in warehouses, to have the same ground into flour, for the purpose of exportation, under such regulations as
190
the act of 1815, that if the parties require, it shall be considered as entitled to remain on the footing on which it was placed by the provisions of that law. When the ports are declared to be open, this corn will be entitled to a free admission, and all this grain might be thrown at once upon the market, without the restraint of duty. As the law now stands, not only will it be poured into the market, as fast as the warehouses can be discharged of it, but it will be brought there together with all the foreign corn that will be freshly imported. It is, therefore, a further object of my resolutions—in order to break this sudden and formidable influx of foreign grain, to allow the foreign corn already warehoused in the country, to come earlier into the market than any other importation of foreign corn, and to permit it to come there when the price shall be seventy. I am sure the House will feel, with the agricultural committee, that, to let in this foreign warehoused corn when the price is seventy shillings, subject however to duty, will not only not endanger the agriculture of the country, but will operate as a positive protection to it; as the influx into the market of this limited quantity already here may operate as a defence against the opening of the ports generally, and consequently against the influx of an unlimited quantity from without.
I have now, I believe, stated every thing necessary for the information of the House. I hope that the committee will allow the resolutions to be proposed and passed pro formâ to-night; with an understanding that they shall be printed and distributed among the members, and that the discussion upon them shall take place on the recommitment of the report; as that will, in all respects, be the most advantageous mode of proceeding. It is my wish to fix an early day for the presentation of the report. If my right hon. friend, the chancellor of the exchequer, will take Wednesday for his financial resolutions, I think Friday will be a proper day for the purpose.—The noble lord then concluded with moving the first of the following series of Resolutions:

191
may guard against the fraudulent introduction of any part of the said corn for home consumption.
3. "That whenever foreign wheat shall have been admitted for home consumption, under the provisions of an act made in the 55th year of his late majesty, the scale of prices at which the home consumption of foreign corn, meal or corn, is permitted by the said act, shall cease and determine.
4. "That foreign corn, meal or flour, shall be permitted to be imported into the United Kingdom, for home consumption, whenever the average prices of British corn shall be at or above the prices hereafter mentioned; that is to say, whenever wheat shall be at or above 70 s. per qr: whenever rye, pease, or beans, shall be at or above 46 s. per qr.; whenever barley, bear or bigg, shall be at or above 35 s. per qr.; whenever oats shall be at or above 25 s. per qr.
5. "That whenever foreign corn, meal or flour, shall be admissible, there shall be levied and paid the duties hereinafter mentioned, whether such corn, meal or dour, shall have been imported and warehoused previous to its becoming so admissible for home consumption, or otherwise; that is to say,

When imported from any Foreign Country.

Wheat.

Rye, Pease, and Beans.

Barley, Bear, or Bigg.

Oats.

If under per quarter

80 s.

53 s.

40 s.

0d.

28 s.

0d.

High Duty

12 s.

0d.

8s.

0d.

6s.

0d.

4s.

0d.

Additional for first 3 months

5s.

0d.

3s.

6d.

2s.

6d.

2s.

0d.

If at or above per qr.

80 s.

53 s.

40 s.

0d.

28 s.

0d.

But under do.

85 s.

56 s.

42 s.

6d.

30 s.

0d.

First low duty

5s.

0d.

3s.

6d.

2s.

6d.

2s.

6d.

Additional for first 3 months

5s.

0d.

3s.

6d.

2s.

6d.

2s.

0d.

If at or above per quarter

85 s.

55 s.

42 s.

6d.

30 s.

Second low duty

1s.

0d.

0s.

8d.

0s.

6d.

0s.

4d.

Duty upon Wheat meal and flour, to be as follows:

Duty upon Oatmeal to be as follows:

First high duty per cwt. when Wheat is under 80 s. per quarter

3s.

3d.

High duty per boll, when Oats are under 28 s. per qr.

4s.

10 d.

Additional, for first 3 months

1s.

7d.

Additional, for first 3 months

2s.

2d.

First low duty, when wheat is at or above 80 s. per quarter, but under 85 s. per qr.

1s.

7d.

First low duty, when Oats are at or above 28 s. per qr. but under 30 s. per quarter

2s.

2d.

Additional, for first 3 months

1s.

7d.

Additional for first 3 months

2s.

2d.

Second low duty, when wheat is at or above 85 s. per quarter

0s.

4d.

Second low duty, when Oats are at or above 30 s. per quarter

0s.

6d.

Malt made of Wheat prohibited.

Rye ground or malt made of Rye, Pease ground and Beans ground prohibited.

Barley, Indian Corn, or Maize, Bear or Bigg, ground, and Malt made of Barley, Indian Corn or Maize Bear or Bigg Prohibited.

Malt made of Oats Prohibited.

6. "That it is the opinion of this Committee, that whenever the scale of prices at which the home consumption of foreign corn, meal or flour, is permitted by the said act, shall cease and determine, then the scale of prices at which corn, meal, or flour, being the growth, produce, or
192

193
manufacture, of any British colony or plantation in North America, is admissible for home consumption shall also cease and determine.
7. "That, corn, meal, or flour, the growth, produce, or manufacture, of any British colony or plantation in North America, shall be permitted to be imported into the United Kingdom, for home consumption, whenever the average prices of British corn, shall be at or above the prices hereinafter mentioned; that is to say, whenever wheat shall be at or above 59 s. per; whenever rye, pease, and beans, shall be at or above 39 s. per qr.; whenever barley, bear or bigg, shall be at or above 30 s. per qr.; whenever oats shall be at or above 30 s. per qr.; whenever oat shall be at or above 20 s. per qr.
8. "That whenever the prices of British corn shall be below the prices before specified, corn or meal, or flour, made from any of the respective sorts of corn before enumerated, the growth produce, or manufacture of any British colony or plantation in North America; shall no longer be allowed to be imported into the united kingdom for home consumption.
9. "That, whenever, corn, meal or flour, of the growth, produce, or manufacture, of any British colony or plantation in North America, shall be admissible for home consumption there shall he levied and paid the duties hereinafter mentioned, upon all such corn, mealy, or flour, when admitted for home consumption, whether such corn, meal or flour, shall have been imported and warehoused previous to its becoming so admissible for home consumption, or otherwise; that is to say,

When imported from the Province of Quebec, or the other British Colonies or Plantations in North America.

Wheat.

Rye, Pease, and Beans.

Barley, Bear or Bigg.

Oats.

If under per quarter

67 s.

44 s.

33 s.

0d.

22 s.

6d.

High duty

12 s.

0d.

8s.

0d.

0s.

6d.

4s.

0d.

Additional, for first 3 months

5s.

0d.

3s.

6d.

2s.

6d.

2s.

0d.

If at or above per. qr.

67 s.

44 s.

33 s.

0d.

22 s.

6d.

But under do.

71 s.

46 s.

35 s.

6d.

24 s.

0d.

First low duty

5s.

0d.

3s.

6d.

2s.

6d.

2s.

0d.

Additional, for first 3 months

5s.

0d.

3s.

6d.

2s.

6d.

2s.

0d.

If at or above per qr.

71 s.

46 s.

35 s.

0d.

24 s.

0d.

Second low duty

1s.

0d.

0s.

8d.

0s.

8d.

0s.

4d.

Duty upon Wheat, Meal or Flour, to be as follows.

Duty upon Oatmeal to be as follows:

First high duty per cwt. When wheat is under 67 s. per qr.

3s.

3d.

High duty per boll, when Oats are under 22 s. 6d. per qr.

4s.

10 d:

Additional, for first 3 months

1s.

7d.

Additional for first 3months

2s.

2d.

First low duty, when Wheat is at or above 67 s. per qr. but under 71 s. per qr.

1s.

7d.

First low duty, when Oats are at or above 22 s. 6d. per qr. but under 24 s. ditto

2s.

2d.

Additional, for first 3 months

1s.

7d.

Additional, for first 3 months

2s.

2d.

Second low duty when Wheat is at or above 71 s. per quarter

0s.

4d.

Second low duty, when Oats are at or 24 s. per qr.

6d.

Malt made of Wheat, prohibited.

Rye, ground, or Malt made of Rye, Pease, ground and Beans ground prohibited.

Barley, Indian Corn, or Maize, Bear or Bigg ground, and Malt, made of Barley, Indian Corn or Maize, Bear or Bigg, prohibited.

Malt made of Oats prohibited.

194

195
10. "That, foreign corn, meal, or flour, in warehouse, may be taken out of warehouse for home consumption, whenever the average prices of British corn shall be as follows; that is to say, whenever wheat shall be at or above 70 s. per qr.; whenever rye, pease or beans shall be at or above 46 s. per qr.; whenever barley, bear, or bigg shall be at or above 35 s. per qr.; whenever oats shall be at or above 25 s. per qr.
11. "That no such foreign corn, meal, or flour, in warehouse, shall be taken out of warehouse, unless there be previously paid upon such corn, meal, or flour, the several duties following; that is to say,

When imported from any Foreign Country.

Wheat

Rye, Pease, and Beans.

Barley, Bear, or Bigg.

Oats.

If under per quarter

80 s.

53 s.

40 s.

0d.

28 s.

High duty

12 s.

0d.

8s.

0d.

6s.

0d.

4s.

0d.

Additional, for first 3 months

5s.

0d.

3s.

6d.

2s.

6d.

2s.

0d.

If at or above per qr

80 s.

53 s.

40 s.

0d.

28 s.

But under do

85 s.

56 s.

42 s.

6d.

30 s.

First low duty

5s.

0d.

3s.

6d.

2s.

6d.

2s.

0d.

Additional, for first 3 months

5s.

0d.

3s.

6d.

2s.

6d.

2s.

0d.

If at or above per qr

85 s.

55 s.

42 s.

6d.

30 s.

Second low duty

1s.

0d.

0s.

8d.

0s.

6d.

0s.

4d.

Duty upon Wheat, Meal and Flour, to be as follows

Duty upon Oatmeal to be as follows:

First high duty per cwt. when Wheat is under 80 s. per quarter

3s.

3d.

High duty per boll, when Oats are under 28 s. per qr.

4s.

10 d.

Additional, for first 3 months

1s.

7d.

Additional, for first 3 months

2s.

2d.

First low duty, when Wheat is at or above 80 s. per qr., but under 85 s. per qr.

1s.

7d.

First low duty, when Oats are at or above 28 s. per qr. but under 30 s. per qr.

2s.

2d.

Additional, for first 3 months

1s.

7d.

Additional, for first 3 months

2s.

2d.

Second low duty, when Wheat is at or above 85 s. per quarter

0s.

4d.

Second low duty, when Oats are at or above 30 s. per qr.

0s.

6d.

Malt made of Wheat prohibited.

Rye ground, or Malt made of Rye, Pease, ground, and Beans ground prohibited.

Barley, Indian Corn, or Maize, Bear or Bigg, ground, and Malt made of Barley, Indian Corn, or Maize, Bear or Bigg prohibited.

Malt made of Oats, prohibited.

12. "That any corn, meal, or flour, of the growth, produce, or manufacture of any British colony or plantation in North America, in warehouse, may be taken out of warehouse for home consumption, whenever the average prices of British corn shall be as follows: that is to say, whenever wheat shall be at or above 59 s. per qr.; whenever rye, pease and beans shall be at or above 39 s. per qr.; whenever barley, bear, or bigg shall be at or above 30 s. per qr.; whenever oats shall be at or above 20 s. per qr.; and such corn, meal, or flour shall be liable, on being taken out of warehouse, to the duties following; that is to say,
196

197

When imported from the Province of Quebec, or the other British Colonies or Plantations in North America.

Wheat

Rye, Pease, and Beans.

Barley, Rear, or Bigg.

Oats.

If under per quarter

67 s.

44 s.

33 s.

0d.

22 s.

6d.

High duty

12 s.

0d.

8s.

0d.

6s.

0d.

4s.

0d.

Additional, for first 3 months

5s.

0d.

3s.

6d.

2s.

6d.

2s.

0d.

If at or above per qr.

67 s.

44 s.

33 s.

0d.

22 s.

6d.

But under do

71 s.

46 s.

35 s.

6d.

24 s.

0d.

First low duty

5s.

0d.

3s.

6d.

2s.

6d.

2s.

0d.

Additional, for first 3 months

5s.

0d.

3s.

6d.

2s.

6d.

2s.

0d.

If at or above per qr.

71 s.

46 s.

35 s.

0d.

24 s.

0d.

Second low duty

1s.

0d.

0s.

8d.

0s.

8d.

0s.

4d.

Duty upon Wheat, Meal or Flour, to be as follows:

Duty upon Oatmeal to be as follows:

First high duty per cwt. when Wheat is under 67 s. per quarter

3s.

3d.

High duty per boll, when Oats are under 22 s. 6d. per qr.

4s.

10 d.

Additional, for first 3 months

1s.

7d.

Additional, for first 3 months

2s.

2d.

First low duty, when Wheat is at or above 67 s. per qr. but under 71 s. per quarter

1s.

7d.

First low duty, when Oats are at or above 22 s. 6d. per qr., but under 24 s. do.

2s.

2d.

Additional, for first 3 months

1s.

7d.

Additional, for first 3 months

2s.

2d.

Second low duty, when Wheat is at or above 71 s. per quarter

0s.

4d.

Second low duty, when Oats are at or above 24 s. per qr.

0s.

6d.

Malt made of Wheat prohibited.

Rye ground or Malt made of Rye, Pease, ground, and Beans ground, prohibited.

Barley, Indian Corn, or Maize, Bear or Bigg, ground, and Malt made of Barley, Indian Corn, or Maize, Bear or Bigg prohibited.

Malt made of Oats prohibited.

13. "That whenever the ports of the United Kingdom shall be shut against the importation of foreign corn, meal, or flour, for home consumption, the said ports shall be also shut against the importation of corn, meal, or flour, the growth, produce, or manufacture of the islands of Guernsey, Jersey, Alderney, and Sark."
Mr. Western,after observing that he thought the propositions made by the noble lord might be more advantageously considered in detail at a future period, confessed that he had been much astonished at the introduction in the noble lord's speech of many most important topics, which, in his opinion, were very much misplaced, and would have been much better in the hands of the chancellor of the exchequer. With respect to the resolution for issuing a million to be applied in advances on stored corn, he was per-
198
suaded it would not give any material relief. Indeed the noble lord himself did not hold out any hope of adequate relief to the agriculturist. In his opinion, speculations of that kind ought not to be made with the public purse. If they were to take place at all, they ought to proceed from individuals, and not from the government. All the other propositions of the noble lord tended to increase the circulating medium, but not in the manner that would be most advantageous. It had, however, been that night distinctly ad-

199
mitted by the noble lord, and indeed it was generally acknowledged and. felt by every intelligent man in the country, that the contraction of the circulating medium was the cause of the present distress. That contraction did not press equally on all classes. The manufacturer was carrying on his trade with a fifth more profit than the agriculturist. The House and the country certainly and not expect the propositions which the noble lord had made to extend the circulating medium; but they were nevertheless of a futile nature. It was something, however, that the baneful operation of the act of 1819 began to be seen and acknowledged by all parties. It was an act which, in fact, was in operation in consequence of the preparations made for it, before it had received the sanction of parliament. It had reduced the country to a state which it was impossible to contemplate without dismay. From that condition it would be impossible to escape without retracing some of our steps. As to the proposition for extending the time of issuing country bank notes of a small value, the effect would be so to depreciate that paper, that it would not constitute a circulating medium satisfactory in its character to the country. Hundreds, nay thousands of victims had been sacrificed to the experiment or 1819. The act of 1819 had, by itself, lowered the price of corn below the sum which it invariably produced previous to the war. It was possible, that the price of corn might advance, but that advance could not be permanent. The diminution of the value of produce was not confined to agriculture: a similar diminution was to be found in the value of all other commodities, the produce of human industry. In 1814, the declared, which was the real value of exports, exceeded the official value in the proportion of 29 per cent: in 1821, the official value exceeded the real value at the rate of 12½ per cent, making a depreciation in the price of manufactures, within that period, of 41½ per cent. Nothing but the repeal of the act of 1819 would give relief to the agriculturists.
Mr. Ricardosaid, that, having a proposition which he wished to submit to the house, he offered himself thus early to the committee. He was desirous of laying his proposition before the House, as the noble lord had laid his, in order that the House might have an opportunity of judging of their several merits. The hon.
200
member for Essex had said, that the noble lord's plan would have the effect of extending the paper currency. He cared not whether it would or would not; for he knew full surely that they had at present as extended a currency as the state of the country required. The present plan—however it might be disguised—was an attack upon the sinking fund. The sinking fund was in principle relinquished. He cared not whether the ultimate accumulation was to be 7,000,000 l. or 9,000,000 l.; the present plan was a breach of public faith, so far as the application of the sinking fund could be a breach of faith. There was, in fact, no longer any sinking fund. He solemnly protested against prolonging the charter of the Bank. They had repeatedly called on the chancellor of the exchequer not to enter into any engagement with the Bank for a renewal of their charter. Yet it was now said, that there would be an extension for 10 years, for an object for which it, was totally insufficient. It would be a great improvement that the public should be allowed to enter into partnery concerns for supplying their own money transactions, instead of having them intrusted for 10 years longer to the Bank. He had hoped never to have heard of their charter being renewed. The benefit of the paper currency ought to belong to the public. No advantage could ever be derived from the Bank lending money to the public.—With respect to what the noble lord had said of their plans differing very little, he thought there was the most essential difference between them. He (Mr. R.) proposed that a duty of 20 s. per quarter should be imposed on the importation of wheat when the price rose to 70 s. The noble lord supposed that he (Mr. R.) had adopted this of choice; but instead of that, he considered it as forced upon him, and he consented reluctantly to this duty, on account of the distress which now existed, and only on that account. There was another very important difference. He proposed that this duty should be imposed when wheat rose to 70 s., because agriculture was at present so extremely depressed. But the noble lord proposed 80 s., 85 s., 70 s., and brought nearer all of them to the importing price, while he (Mr. R.) differed upon that point, and by imposing a duty of 20 s. when the price was lower at home, afforded a greater relief to the farmer. He thought the farmers the most dis-

201
tressed class in the country, and the most cruelly used. When the prices rose in consequence of a short harvest, and when the farmers ought to have compensation, they diminished their profits, and let corn in from all parts of the world. This great evil the noble lord did not propose to remedy. If the price rose to 85 s., it was only required to pay a duty of 1s., and the poor farmer might be inundated with foreign corn. But another difference between him and the noble lord was this—he (Mr. R.) contended, that there could be no security to the farmer while the price of corn was kept higher in this country than in foreign countries. This had been ably shown in the last year's agricultural report. Did the noble lord propose to relieve the agriculturists from this evil, or to afford any mitigation of it? No. Therefore they would be fully as ill off as now. According to his (Mr. R.'s) plan they would be sure that the prices here could not be much higher than they were abroad. He would read the propositions, which he hoped the noble lord would be prevailed on to admit with his own; if not, he hoped the House would decide respecting it. They were as follow:

1. "That it is expedient to provide that the foreign corn now under bond in the United Kingdom may be taken out for home consumption, whenever the average price of wheat, ascertained in the usual mode, shall exceed 65 s. a quarter, upon the payment of the following duties:—Wheat 15 s. a quarter; rye, peas, and beans, 9s. 6d. a quarter; barley, bear, or bigg, 7s. 6d. a quarter; oats, 5s. a quarter.

2. "That whenever the average price of wheat, ascertained in the usual mode, shall exceed 70 s. a quarter, the trade in corn shall henceforth be permanently free, but subject to the following duties upon importation:—Of wheat, 20 s. a quarter; rye, peas, and beans, 13 s. 3d. a quarter: barley, bear, or bigg, 10 s. a quarter; oats, 6s. 8d. a quarter.

3. "That at the expiration of one year from the time at which the above duties on corn imported shall be in operation, they be reduced as follows:—On wheat, 1s. a quarter; rye, peas, and beans, 8d. a quarter; barley, bear, or bigg, 6d. a quarter: oats 4d a quarter.

4. "That a like reduction of duties be made in every subsequent year, until the duty on the importation of wheat be 10 s. a quarter; rye, peas, and beans, 6s. 7d, a quarter; barley, bear, or bigg, 5s, a quarter; oats, 3s. 4d. a quarter, at which rates they shall henceforth be fixed.

5. "That a drawback or bounty be allowed on the exportation of corn to foreign countries, On wheat, 7s. a quarter; rye, peas, and
202
beans, 4s. 6d. a quarter; barley, bear, and bigg, 3s. 6d. a quarter; oats 2s. 4d. a quarter; and that such drawback or bounty in like manner as the importation duty be fixed."

Mr. Broughamthought, that notwithstanding the very proper delay of the main question, it would not be improper to consider some of the minor points. He did not wish to argue whether the distress of which the agriculturists were complaining was peculiar to them, or whether it was less confined in its operation; whether it confined itself to them, or spread itself over the other classes of the community; whether, in short, the whole country was in a state of suffering, or that all which the agriculturists lost was gained by the other classes. He thought that the course of argument which he should adopt, when the great question came to be discussed, would be, that the whole country was suffering. The late events had shown this; and he could not help remarking, that no statesman, no government, could regard it in any other light. If the whole was suffering, then there was nothing to set off against the agricultural distress. He was not prepared to admit that the condition of any one class of the people was good. If the agriculturists were suffering more severely than the manufacturers and commercialists, still their distress was comparative. The others were not to be reckoned prosperous. Moreover, though wages were better, in reference to the high prices which had been formerly paid for provisions, yet the prospect for workmen was extremely precarious. The profits of those who employed workmen, was were extremely moderate. If, then, in this state of wages and profits, any increase of prices should take place, the altered state of things would reduce others to that distress to which the farmer had fallen. One project which the noble lord had brought forward was a kind of substitute for one which had been on the point of emanating from the agricultural committee. He alluded to the project for the hiring of corn. He knew not who was the author of it. It was not the author of last year's report, he was sure; but if he saw him opposite to him, he congratulated him on one of the most ridiculous contrivances which had ever been invented. It was this signal device: "Whereas there is a difficulty in obtaining a demand for corn, and the farmer cannot sell, God forbid the government

203
should come into the market as a corn-dealer, because the government ought not to become a purchaser, and particularly in corn; therefore, let not government become a buyer, but only a hirer of corn. God forbid that government should resort to corn-dealing; but let it betake itself to pawnbroking, and let the three golden balls be fixed in from of the Treasury. The noble lord had rejected that project, but had now brought forward a substitute for it. Government must not let, but the farmer might borrow. The government came forward as a money-lender; and for every cart-load of corn which he brought, the farmer could obtain the loan of so much money. He objected to this extraordinary project of the noble marquis, not only on account of its absurdity, but of its total inefficacy. The object which the noble marquis had in view with respect to the bankers was, as he understood it, the extension of the act to enable bankers to issue notes under 5l. to the year 1833. This measure was liable to many objections. He did not think it would tend to force paper into circulation. So long as the present act continued in force, by which the Bank would be compelled to pay in specie, and the country banks he supposed would, also be compelled to adopt the same course, the power of issuing notes under 5l. for about 7 or 8 years would only operate as a permission to issue small instead of large notes, but still having the circumstance of their liability to be converted into specie at any time hanging over them. If, however, the proposed measure was not liable to the objection of causing a forced circulation, it would have a tendency to maintain paper money afloat, from' time preference which would be given to small notes over coin; for he would admit that if a paper circulation were not liable to many important objections which could not be alleged against a metallic currency, its advantage, as compared with the latter, on the point of convenience, was manifest. Among the disadvantages attending a paper circulation, was its liability to be forged. It ought also to be considered in what a situation we should be placed, in case of any alarm in the public mind, with a circulation filled with paper, instead of being scantily supplied with paper and bearly filled with gold. In case of a war, for instance, under what great disadvantages the country would labour in having a paper instead of a metallic currency.
204
Even with a natural and healthy paper currency, such an event as he had alluded to would create great inconvenience; but with a currency composed principally of the small notes, which would be thrown into circulation by the permission which was proposed to be given to bankers, the consequences would be disastrous. In such a state of things, how dreadful was it to contemplate the occurrences of a similar event to that which happened in 1793, and which afterwards drove us to adopt measures in 1797, the end of the mischief resulting from which the present generation had not lived to see, and those who came after them would live long before they saw.—With respect to the extension of the charter of the Bank for 10 years longer, he was of opinion that the consideration to be given by the Bank was wholly inadequate to the extent of the benefit. It would have been much more advisable to have refrained from entering into such an improvident bargain for the attainment of a small benefit at the present moment. He had never seen time maxim that "time needy party always goes to the wall" better exemplified than in the projected bargain. He could net perceive any good effect which was likely to result Cram encouraging banking speculation all over the country. He knew that farmers found no difficulty in obtaining money, provided they could give security for it; but no banking firms, whether consisting of the present, or of an increased number of members, would make advances without receiving good security, which the farmers could not give. Over-trading was one of the causes of the present distress; and therefore any thing tending to increase the facilities of over-trading ought to be anxiously avoided. He would now endeavour to state the nature of the scheme which the noble marquis had, alter so much preparation, laid before the House. The dead weight amounted to 5,000,000 l. in the nature of annuities on many lives. As those lives dropped off the annuities would fall in. Consequently, the 5,000,000 l. would dwindle gradually every year until at last nothing of that sum would remain. The noble marquis said, he would take 2,800,000 l. and pay it equally and steadily, never exceeding or falling short of that sum, during the 45 years, to which the calculation extended. By this means he would set 2,200,000 l. free. It was necessary, however, that the noble lord

205
should get this money somewhere, and he applied to contractors, who were to pay it for the first 16 years, without deriving any benefit; after that period, they might calculate upon lives continually dropping in, and their gains would go on increasing every year, until at last, they would perhaps have to pay nothing, although they would continue to receive the same sum as before. The principle of the sinking fund, to which he could not agree, was, to relieve posterity at the expense of the present oppressed generation: and the principle of the noble marquis's plan was, to relieve the present generation at the expense of posterity. This scheme of farming out the invalids might be applied to any other fund: there was no limit to the application of the principle if once it were admitted. He did not doubt that persons would be found to undertake the job; but the House might depend upon it that they would make the country pay smartly for it. And all this was done because ministers would not give up an empty name. They would saddle the country with all the expense of maintaining the clumsy machinery by which this scheme was to be carried on, in order to make the public believe that a sinking fund was in existence, when at the same time it was evident that there could be no sinking fund, but that arising from a clear surplus of revenue over expenditure. He had never said, that a sinking fund, on a sound principle, was not a great advantage. To a nation groaning under a debt of 800,000,000 l., it would be the best thing possible to have a clear excess of revenue over the necessary expenditure, and that that surplus should be employed every year in paying off a certain portion of the debt. But, were we at present in a situation to pay off any part of our debt? To pay the interest, which was all that we were bound by contract to do, was as much as the suffering people could perform. Until the surplus of revenue increased, and taxation was diminished, he would put a stop to the operation of the sinking fund.—With respect to the corn question, he thought the noble marquis was mistaken in supposing that the distinction between his plan and that of the hon. member for Portarlington consisted only in the difference of superstructure: the distinction was in the principle. The noble marquis proposed to relieve the distresses of the country by the operation of the sinking fund, and by the plan with
206
regard to the dead weight; but of the diminution of expenditure the noble marquis had said not one word. The House would not do its duty if it suffered the session to pass, without forcing the noble marquis and his colleagues to have recourse to the only means of obtaining a true and wholesome income—namely, a rigid parsimony in the management of the public money.
Mr. Huskissonagreed with the hon. and learned gentleman, that the only real sinking fund was that which was composed of a clear excess of revenue over expenditure. He declared that he would object to the plan proposed, if he thought it in any way touched upon the principle of the sinking fund. Another part of his noble friend's plan, went to extend the period during which country bank notes, under the value of 5l. were to be allowed to circulate, and also to relieve the country banking-houses from their present limitation of partners. He had been surprised when the hon. member for Essex asserted, that government could not continue the circulation of those 5l. country notes, without repealing a part of Mr. Peel's bill. He begged to contradict that statement most decidedly. The present plan, so far from being suggested because the measure of 1819 was repented of, was at all points perfectly consistent with that measure; and he (Mr. H.) in the committee upon the bill of 1819, had actually proposed that the present plan should at that time be recommended to parliament. With respect to 1l. notes, whether those notes were issued by country banks under the old limitation, or by country banks with an unlimited number of partners, their credit was secured by their convertibility at pleasure into Bank of England notes or into cash. But he did not believe that, on the removal of the limitation, banks would start up like mushrooms, as the hon. gentleman had predicted. Let the House look at the state of the banks in Scotland, which were already free from limitation. Had any of those banks failed of late years from over trading? Was it found that they had made improvident advances among their own partners; or had it been found, as was too frequently the case in England, that men embarked in the banking business, in order to prop up other hazardous speculations? Yet the banks of Scotland issued one pound notes, and presented a fair example to justify, the experiment. With res-

207
pect to forgery, the number of trials for notes forged on the country banks was very inconsiderable, and he doubted whether in Scotland one man had been executed for many years. At all events, he was not to be deterred, by the existence of some objections, from the adoption of any measure involving a great national object. But, were not bills of exchange liable to be forged as well as bank-notes? And was not the number of persons tried for the issue of counterfeit coin to be looked to, when the hon. and learned gentleman laid so much stress on the prosecutions for forgery? He believed it would be found, that 280 convictions had taken place in the course of the last year, for the crime of counterfeiting the coin of the realm. The hon. and learned gentleman had said, that he did not consider the other classes of the community as being at all in a flourishing situation, and that even if they were, that circumstance could not console him for the distressed state of the agricultural classes. It was true that the evil was of a most appalling description; but still he could not agree that there was no consolation in seeing that the other classes were better off at present than they had been. He would admit, that it was no compensation to be told this; but surely it ought to console them in some measure. That the manufacturers, and the working classes genenerally, were in a state of comparative ease and comfort, was undeniable. He defied any man upon any other principle to account for the known fact, that the produce of the taxes upon consumption was gradually and steadily rising. The hon. and learned member had mentioned a plan, which he had placed in a ludicrous light, calling it a pawnbroking plan. He (Mr. H.) knew nothing of any such plan, but he would state to the House what had occurred in the last year's committee. An hon. friend of his, not now present (the member for Taunton), looking at the situation in which the country was placed, with a monopoly of corn, and a prohibition of trade in that article, had given it as his opinion, that no plan could give such effectual relief to the market as that government should buy up the surplus in years of abundance, keeping it to be dealt out in years of deficiency, and so suiting in both cases the supply to the demand. To that proposal he (Mr. H.) had objected upon principle. But, if a country chose to proceed out of the fair
208
legitimate course of trade, and to take up and persevere in an artificial system, some measure, not in itself desirable, might become absolutely necessary as an antidote to the dangers of that system. If this country would place itself in the situation of having no free intercourse with other nations in the trade in corn, and still continued liable to the fluctuation of seasons, it followed of course, that a wise permanent system would be to try if posble to hoard the surplus of a year of plenty to meet the possible exigency of an unfavourable harvest. He (Mr. H.) did not recommend the plan which he was about to mention; but some measure was necessary both for the grower who would be ruined by an overstocked market in full years, and for the consumer, who would want protection against the scarcity of had ones. He did not recommend the plan as good in itself; but he thought it less injurious than the plan of the hon. member for Taunton; and the plan he suggested was this:—It had long been the policy of England to give a bounty upon the exportation of corn; the suggestion was, to convert that which, according to old principles, had been a bounty upon exportation, into a small advantage upon the hoarding of corn. No money was to be advanced by government. No three balls were to be hoisted. It was merely giving something like the amount of the old bounty in another shape. He admitted freely that this system was a bad one; but it was a had system growing out of a bad course of policy. The right hon. gentleman then alluded to the proposition as to the conversion of the annuity for lives into an annuity for a term of years. The hon. and learned gentleman had talked of the expensive machinery attendant upon that proceeding: he could assure the House that no arrangement could be more simple. He would not at that late hour detain the House by opening or explaining the resolutions which he intended to move. He would lay them on the table, and remain satisfied with their being printed. When the House met again on the subject, he would state the cause of the difference between the resolutions proposed by him and those proposed- by his noble friend. The course he should suggest was, that the resolutions being put pro forma, the chairman should report progress upon the first resolution. The whole of the resolutions might then be printed, and handed about among the

209
members. The right hon. gentleman was about to sit down; but several voices called for the reading of his resolutions. He accordingly read them as follow:

1. "That the ports of the United Kingdom were shut against the importation of foreign wheat, for home consumption, in the month of February, 1819, the average price being then 78 s. 7d. a quarter, and that they have remained closed ever since; the average price of the year 1820 having been 65 s. 7d.—of the year 1821, 54 s. 5d.—and of the three first mouths of 1822, 47 s. 9d. a quarter.

2. "That in the year 1819, the quantity of British wheat imported into the port of London was 300,416 quarters; in 1820, 399,009 quarters; and in 1821, 494,828 quarters; and that during the whole of this period of three years, the supply, in all the principal markets of the United Kingdom, appears uniformly to have exceeded the demand, notwithstanding the wants of an increasing population, and other circumstances, which have probably produced an increased annual consumption.

3. "That this excess of the supply above the demand must have arisen either from an extent of corn tillage more than commensurate to the average consumption of the country; or from a succession of abundant harvests upon the same extent of tillage; or from the coincident effect of both these causes.

4. "That in the fluctuation of se sons, the effect of the present corn law must be, to expose, sometimes the grower of corn to the losses incident to an over redundant produce, and at other times the consumer to the pressure inseparable from dearth; that the free importation of foreign corn (the remedy provided by the law for the latter evil), if wanted to a great amount, must be precarious in proportion as the demand is unusual; and that against the former evil the law affords to the grower no relief whatever.

5. "That the alternate evils of redundancy and scarcity cannot fail to be aggravated by the alternate excitement and depression to which the agriculture of the United Kingdom must be exposed, under the present system of our corn laws.

6. "That another evil effect of this system is, to convert farming into a hazardous and gambling speculation, which, however prudently managed, must occasionally involve great losses to the capitals engaged in agriculture.

7. "That a free trade in foreign corn, subject to certain duties on the importation thereof for home consumption, was at all times permitted, prior to the act of the 55th Geo. 3rd, c. 26.

8 "That since the passing of that act, by which such importation is prohibited until the average price of wheat shall have reached or exceeded, for a certain time, 80 s. a quarter, and other grain in proportion, a great accumulation of foreign corn has taken place in the warehouses of this country, and of the continent.

9. "That to obviate the prejudicial effects
210
of that act, and to ensure a regular supply grain, at prices as much as possible steady and. moderate, it is expedient to provide for the repeal of so much of the said act as prohibits, under certain prices, the importation of foreign grain for home consumption.

10. "That in order to render this repeal safe to the grower of British corn, and gradual in its operation, under the present accumulation of foreign grain in the warehouses of this country and in the ports of the continent, it is expedient to provide that the foreign wheat now under bond in the United Kingdom may be taken out for home consumption, upon-the payment of a duty of 15 s. per quarter, as soon as the average price of wheat, ascertained in the usual mode, shall exceed 70 s. a quarter; and that at the expiration of three months from the date of such admission of warehoused wheat into home consumption, or so much sooner as the average price shall exceed 80 s. a quarter, wheat from abroad may be admitted, upon the payment of the like duty.

11. "That the trade in foreign corn shall thenceforth be permanently free; but subject to the following duties upon importation, or when taken out of warehouse for home consumption:— wheat, 15 s. a quarter, when the price shall not exceed 80 s.; and when above that price, 5s.; and above 85 s., one shilling;—rye, peas, and beans, 9s. 6d. a quarter, when the price shall not exceed 53 s.; and when above 53 s., one shilling;—barley, bear or bigg, 7s. 6d. a quarter, up to 40 s.; and when above that price, one shilling;—oats, 5s. a quarter, up to 28 s.: and when above that price, one shilling.

The chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again.

SCARCITY OF PROVISIONS IN IRELAND.
The Earl of Darnleyexpressed his surprise that no proposition had yet been submitted to the House respecting the state of Ireland. He did not now mean to enter into any discussion on the moral or political state of that country, but he thought himself bound to notice the great distress which, according to the best information, prevailed throughout Ireland. The noble earl opposite must be aware that there was an increasing distress in that country from the actual want of provisions. His object in mentioning this lamentable state of things was, to learn from the noble earl whether the attention of government had been called to the distress prevailing in Ireland, and whether any measures of relief had been adopted.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he had no hesitation in stating, that government had received information that distress for the want of provisions was great in some parts of Ireland. The subject, however, had not been overlooked by government, and measures, conformable to precedents established on former occasions and found sufficient, had been resorted to. With regard to the general question of relief in such cases, he must say, that nothing, except in extreme cases, could be more improper than the interference of government with the subsistence of the country. Such interference was far more likely to cause famine, than to give relief in times of difficulty. What ought to be done by the government with respect to the whole country might be illustrated by the reply made to a foreigner who expressed his surprise that so great a city as London should be so well supplied without any regulations. He was answered, that the reason of its being so well supplied, was precisely because there were no regulations for that purpose. The course to be followed in the present case was the same which had been adopted on former occasions. He appealed to the noble peers who had lately returned from Ireland, whether they were not satisfied, that whatever could be done to relieve the present distress, would be done, and was doing?