Sitting of 1 April 1822

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS—RATE OF INTEREST.
Mr. Stuart Wortleysaid, he held in his hand a petition from the owners and occupiers of land in Linlithgow, complaining of distress. The remedy which the petitioners proposed was, the laying out of a million of money on the part of government in the purchase of corn in the market. He particularly directed the attention of the House to one paragraph in the petition, to this effect:—Your petitioners do not pretend to find fault with taxes, being convinced that they are necessary for the support of the state. To reduce taxation would be like a drop of water falling into the immense ocean—our distresses are so far beyond the reach of any relief to be obtained in that way." In that opinion he fully concurred. He felt disappointed that the Bank had not seconded the plan of the government, by consenting to discount at a lower rate of interest. He was convinced that the Bank, by refusing to discount at a lower rate of interest, had contributed materially to the distresses of the country. The conduct of the Bank was indeed extraordinary. It did nothing to facilitate money transactions, which was originally the object of its institution. Why had the Bank continued its rate of discount higher than in other countries? Why was it necessary to pay 5 per cent in London, and only 4 per cent in Paris? He was willing to admit that the country was greatly obliged to the Bank for their conduct

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during the war; but he could not avoid stating that it was now doing that which was most likely to augment the existing distress.
Mr. Manningfelt it extremely difficult to reply to the observations of the last speaker, because he had no authority to state any thing on the part of the Bank. The hon. member had said, that a great portion of the agricultural distress was to be ascribed to the conduct of the Bank. A charge so totally without foundation, he had never heard. In his opinion, the distress of the agricultural interest was occasioned by over production, arising from the large quantities of land enclosed during the last twelve years. The directors of the Bank had been held up to public indignation as being the cause of agricultural distress, because they had not lowered the rate of interest. But the Bank had nothing to do with lowering the rate of interest. That was altogether a parliamentary question. The learned member for Guildford had once proposed to repeal the usury laws; and if that had been agreed to, interest would have been taken at 10 or 12 per cent. Another attack in which official persons had joined had been made upon the Bank, because it had not lowered the rate of its discount to 4 per cent. He did not know why the Bank were to be called usurers and extortioners on this ground. The Bank lent out its whole capital of 15,000,000 l. at 3 per cent; and if they were to-morrow to discount commercial bills at 4 per cent, the measure would not afford the slightest facility, beyond that at present existing, to any landowner to borrow money on mortgage. Money, to any extent, might now be borrowed at 4 per cent upon real security. It was the bounden duty of the Bank to carry into effect the determination of parliament to restore a metallic currency. The circulation was at present full; and, from the year 1819 to this moment there had been no want of money in the country. In his judgment, to lower the rate of interest would be to force British capital into the foreign funds. Within only a few days, 300,000 l. had been sold out of our stocks and placed in those of other countries.
Mr. Serjeant Onslowdefended his proposition to repeal the usury laws, which was merely, that the rate of interest should be left to find its own level. He had by no means abandoned it, and the measure which was in contemplation for re-
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ducing the tax on the transfer of mortgages, would remove the objections that had been made to it.
Sir W. W. Wynnsaid, he should hear with great satisfaction of the reduction of the rate of interest, and wished to know whether the reduction of the heavy tax on the transfer of mortgages was actually in contemplation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that ministers, with the advice of the law officers of the Crown, intended to introduce a clause into a bill now preparing, remitting the heavy ad valorem duty on mortgages. It would provide, that mortgages might be endorsed from one party to another, on the payment of the value of the common deed stamp.
Sir T. Lethbridgeagreed, that the Bank was not the cause of the agricultural distress, and that the country was under great obligations to the Bank; but on the other hand, the Bank were under great obligations to the country; and he thought that they should not be slow to reduce the rate of interest, which ultimately they could not keep up.
Mr. Benett,of Wilts, said, the only source of immediate relief both to landlord and tenant was a reduction of the interest of money. The law, though it prevented the Bank from taking more, did not, he apprehended, prevent them from taking less than 5 per cent. If 4,000,000 l. were to be advanced for five years certain, at 4 per cent to those who had mortgages, not more than 5,000 l. to be advanced to any person, it would have the immediate effect of reducing the whole mortgage interest of the country.
Mr. Westernsaid, the ministers should be aware of the situation in which agriculture stood. The gentlemen whose property was embarked in that pursuit were on the brink of ruin. He was convinced that two-thirds of the farmers of Essex were at this moment, if they were called upon to settle their accounts, in a state of insolvency. He called upon the noble marquis to consider whence such a situation had arisen. Had it happened in this country before? Had it happened in any other country, that a whole class of men were deprived of their property? So far from expecting this, there was every reason to have hoped for the reverse. Their situation was one which must convulse the whole frame of society, unless it were speedily altered. Landlords for the last two or three years had been

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living upon the capital of their tenantry. To comprehend the cause of such a situation, was difficult, and to find a remedy still more so. The operations of the legislature as to the money, had, he was convinced, been almost the sole cause of the evil; for great as the burthens of the country were, its resources were also so great, that but for the manner in which the currency had been affected, it would have been now in a state of unequalled prosperity. By the change of the currency, the burthens of the country had at once been increased 20 or 25 per cent. Notwithstanding the distress, he had not had during this session a single petition, to present from the county of Essex. The real cause of this was, that an utter despair existed of relief from that House, and they had absolutely given up petitioning. The act of 1797 had been a breach of faith to the public creditor, the act of 1819 had been a breach of faith to the public debtor not less gross; and he was convinced, the more its consequences were experienced, the more the necessity would be felt of reconsidering it.
Sir E. Harveyconfirmed what had fallen from his hon. colleague on the subject of petitions. He also bore testimony to the great extent of the distress in Essex.
Mr. Huskissoncould not avoid expressing his opinion, that if the Bank could be induced to lower the rate of interest, it would contribute in some degree to release the pressure which gentlemen so bitterly lamented. When it was said that it had lent 15 millions to the public at 3 per cent, it ought not to be forgotten that parliament had given the Bank important and exclusive privileges. If the ordinary rate of interest was elsewhere under 5 per cent, he could not understand why the Bank should refuse to discount on good securities at the same rate, when it had in fact found it worth while to lend to the state at 3 per cent.
Mr. Moncksaid, the Bank had a right to make the best use of their capital, and that any relief occasioned by the lowering of interest would be of small amount, except to mortgagees. The distress of the country could, in his opinion, be relieved only by raising the price of agricultural produce, or by reducing taxation.
Mr. Huskissonbegged to disclaim all right to interfere with the affairs of the Bank of England. He had only stated his opinion as an individual member of parliament.
Mr. Pearse,contended that over-production was the real cause of the distress, and that the rate of interest had always been governed by the price of the funds.
Ordered to lie on the table.

REPORT FROM THE COMMITTEE ON THE DISTRESSED STATE OF AGRICULTURE.
Mr. Goochbrought up the report of the select Committee on the distressed, state of the Agriculture of the United Kingdom, and moved that it be read. The marquis of Londonderry suggested, that as arrangements had been made for printing the report as soon as possible, it might be better not to have it read at present. After a short conversation, it was agreed that the report should be taken into consideration on the 22nd. The following is a copy thereof:—

AGRICULTURAL REPORT.
THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Allegations of the several Petitions which have been presented to the House in the last and present Sessions of Parliament, complaining of the distressed state of the Agriculture of the United Kingdom, and to report their observations thereon to the House;
Considered that among all the important objects referred to them, none could be more deserving of their earliest attention than an inquiry into any measures that could be suggested for affording some temporary relief to the distresses of which the numerous petitioners with so much reason complain, and which appear, from the returns of the average prices of corn during the late weeks,* to be progressively increasing rather than diminishing.
Your Committee do not venture to determine whether the present state of the corn market be owing to an excess of production, or to what extent that excess may reach, beyond the usual and requisite supply; or whether the necessities of the occupiers of land cause an unprecedented eagerness to dispose of their produce at almost any price; but it appears from an official return, that the quantity of British wheat and oats (but not of barley) sold in Mark-lane, between 1st November and 1st of March last, has very considerably exceeded the quantity sold in

* Prices, 16th March, 45. 11.

the highest price of any 1 week in 1822, was 56 s. 7d.

9th — 10.

2nd — 10.

23rd Feb. 47. 7.

the corresponding months of the twenty preceding years. Such an excess of supply beyond demand can have no other effect than to continue the depression of price, and increase the accumulation of the stock upon hand; while it is evident, from the present very low rate of price on the continent of Europe, as compared with prices in this country, that there is no chance of resorting to the natural expedient of relieving the market by exporting any portion of our own corn, even with the aid of any bounty which would not be excessive.
Two other modes have, therefore, been under the consideration of your Committee; by the first of which it was proposed that one million of exchequer bills should be applied to purchasing, through the agency of government, and laying up in store, a certain portion of wheat grown in the United Kingdom; and by the second, that facility and encouragement should be offered to individuals to deposit a part of their stock in warehouses, so that they might not be forced to come into the market simultaneously, and under the disadvantage of excessive competition, but might be enabled to wait until the supply having approached nearer to the wants of the consumers might afford, if not a remunerating, at least a price some what less ruinous for their produce. With regard to the first of these proposals, the general objections against making the public, through the executive government, a dealer and speculator in corn, the suspicions to which it might give rise, and the uneasiness in the public feeling which it might eventually excite, the danger of its being drawn into precedent, the claims which it might be supposed to give to other important articles of domestic produce, whenever they might be exposed to similar depression, and the universal rule of allowing all articles as much as possible to find their own natural level, by leaving the supply to adjust itself to the demand, discourage your Committee from recommending it, even under this extraordinary emergency, and with all the guards and qualifications of a temporary expedient. But with regard to the second, although much less efficacious in its operation, the objection of government becoming a purchaser does not apply, as individuals would in this case act for themselves, and according to their own discretion, the government interfering no otherwise than by making advances
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upon the commodity deposited, which would be repaid, with a low rate of interest, as soon as the article should be brought to market. For effecting this object, two different modes have been suggested, by one of which it was proposed, that when the weekly average price is under 58 s. (the import-scale remaining at present) wheat should be stored, subject to a monthly allowance of sixpence per quarter, until the average price should reach 65 s. The whole quantity not to exceed 600,000 quarters, and the time for which the allowance should be payable not to exceed 12 or 18 months. Not more than a certain number of quarters, nor less than another specified number of quarters, to be stored on the part of any individual or firm. The owner of the corn so deposited to be at liberty to withdraw it at any time, waving his claim to allowance, or refunding it.
The other proposition was, that for the purpose of relieving the glut which at present presses upon the grain market, the government, whenever the average price of wheat shall be under 60 s. should grant advances of money upon such corn of the growth of the United Kingdom, as should be deposited in fit and proper warehouses upon the river Thames, and in the ports to be hereafter specified, to an extent not exceeding two-thirds of the market value of such corn; the quality of the corn and the fitness of the warehouses to be approved of by officers to be appointed by the government. The loan to be at the rate of 3 per cent and the period of deposit not to exceed 12 months. The corn to be withdrawn at the will of the depositor, upon payment of the interest, warehouse rent, and other charges. The sum of one million so applied, would probably be fully adequate to give a temporary check to the excess which is continually poured into the already overstocked market. If the House should be inclined to agree with your Committee in countenancing the latter of these propositions, it is evident that it ought to lead to some immediate proceeding: and although no very great effect can be contemplated from adopting it, its operation, as far as it may extend, can hardly fail to afford some temporary relief.
There is another measure also to which it is fit to call the early attention of the House. The foreign grain and flour of all sorts in different warehouses under the

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king's lock, appears to have amounted on the 5th January last to 897,136 quarters; with regard to which, although there is little probability that it can soon come into competition with our home produce, yet it still hangs over the market in a formidable mass, ready to be poured in at once, creating no small degree of panic as to its future operation, and invested with a sort of claim (which is of the utmost importance) to be brought out free from duty, whenever the ports shall be opened under the existing law, even supposing any duty shall be imposed by parliament, under an alteration of that law, upon all corn hereafter to be imported from foreign parts. To relieve the market from both these inconveniences, it may be proper to permit the holders of such corn now in warehouses under certain adequate regulations and restrictions, to have the same ground into flour for the purpose of exportation; and also to provide, by legislative enactment, that in future any foreign corn warehoused in this kingdom shall be considered as corn coming from abroad, and subject to all such duties and regulations as are or may from time to time be imposed upon corn coming directly from a foreign port. A proposition which was submitted to your Committee, for advancing loans to parishes on the credit of the rates, appeared to be attended with so many difficulties, and to be so little applicable to the purpose of alleviating the distresses which are complained of, that they do not deem it necessary to enter into any examination of it, nor to lay it before the House.
Much us your Committee lament, that so little prospect of immediate relief can be held out to the urgent distresses which have been submitted to their anxious consideration, they think it material to obviate and counteract any unfounded alarm which may have been, either casually or industriously, circulated, that there was ever the least intention entertained by your Committee of rendering the present condition of the British cultivators worse than it is under the existing law; and they therefore submit, with great confidence, to the House, that the act of the 55th of the late king, c. 26, which regulates the importation of foreign corn, ought to continue in force until the average price of wheat shall be 80 s. per quarter, and other kinds, of grain in proportion. It is impossible to carry protection further than monopoly; and it can-
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not be denied, that this monopoly the British grower has possessed fore more than three years, that is, ever since February 1819, with the exception of the ill-timed and unnecessary importation of somewhat more than 700,000 quarters of oats, which took place during the summer of 1820. It must be considered further, that this protection, in consequence of the increased value of our currency, and the present state of the supply of corn combined with the prospect of an early harvest, may, in all probability, remain uninterrupted for a very considerable time to come. But for the purpose of obviating the dangers in which this law can hardly fail, sooner or later, to involve the cultivators of the soil, and in conformity to the reasoning contained in the report of the committee of the last session upon the same subject, some material change must be contemplated; your Committee, therefore, cannot avoid suggesting, whether, under a full view of all the circumstances, it may not be the duty of parliament to turn its immediate attention to the ruinous consequences which must follow an unlimited importation and free sale of the surplus produce of the whole agricultural world, which is known at this time to be in a state of glut, at least equal to what prevails within this kingdom, no less impatient for, and unprovided with a market, with a commodity raised at much less charge than our own, which the proprietors would be ready to sell even at a considerable loss, rather than not dispose of it at all. The excessive inconvenience and impolicy of our present system have been so fully treated, and so satisfactorily exposed in the report already alluded to (pages 10 and 12), that it is unnecessary to do more than refer to: adding only, that every thing which has happened subsequent to the presentation of that report, as well as all our experience since 1815, has more and more tended to demonstrate how little reliance can be placed upon a regulation which contains an absolute prohibition up to a certain price, and an unlimited competition beyond that price; which, so far from affording steadiness to our market, may at one time reduce prices already too low still lower than they might have been even under a free trade, and, at another, unnecessarily enhance prices already too high; which tends to aggravate the evils of scarcity, and render more severe the depression of prices from abundance. The mode in

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which these excessive inconveniences, may receive some modification (laying for the present out of the question what permanent basis may be ultimately the fittest for our corn trade) appears to consist in the imposition of a. duty upon all foreigne corn, whenever upon opening our ports it should be admissible for home consumption. The occupier of the land would thus obtain, in proportion to the amount of such duty, a protection which is withheld from, him under the existing law; but in return for such protection, it is no more than reasonable towards the consumer that the import price should be fixed at a rate somewhat lower than 80 s., because the new duty would otherwise not only check the sudden and overwhelming amount of import, but also enhance the prices beyond that which it might reach under the present system; nor must it be lost sight of in any future regulation, that owing to the great alteration in our currency, 80 s. may and do now represent a different and considerably higher value than in 1815, as measured by the price of all articles of consumption.
Should parliament decide to legislate during the present session, your Committee would recommend, that after our wheat shall have reached 80 s. whenever circumstances, not now to be foreseen, may have effected so great a change, a lower price may be assumed for the future import, subject to a duty. When the importers know that their grain can in no case come into the market without paying a certain sum as duty, besides the charges of importation, warehousing, and other incidental expenses, they will be less ready to adventure rashly than under an entirely free trade; they will also withdraw their corn, which may be lodged in warehouses gradually, and with more circumspection than they do at present, and will naturally endeavour to feed the market rather than inundate it. It is now their interest to take their whole stock, immense as it may be, at once from under the king's lock; but when they must pay duty for every quarter which is removed, they will prudently calculate the time that any large stock will remain on hand before they can dispose a it to advantage.
The foundation of any future bill should be the principle of so far modifying the operation of the existing law as to obviate, as far as may be, by the imposition of reasonable duties upon the admis-
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sion of foreign grain for home consumption, the sudden and irregular manner in which such foreign grain may now be introduced upon the opening of the ports under circumstances inconsistent with the spirit and intentions of the law. For carrying this purpose into effect, it would be expedient, after the ports shall have opened at 80 s. (subject to a scale of duty hereafter to be fixed), to preserve the principle of an import price at a rate somewhat lower than the existing import price of 80 s., and your Committee are of opinion that 70 s. would not be an improper limit to assign to that price. That a duty, of from 12 s. to 15 s. should be imposed upon foreign wheat for home consumption when the price is from 70 s. to 80 s. Also that a duty of 5s. should be imposed upon such wheat, when the price is from 80 s. to 85 s.; after which the duty should be reduced to 1s.. And that a further additional duty of 5s. should be imposed upon wheat imported or taken out of warehouse for home consumption, for the first three months after the ports open, and when the price is from 70 s. to 85. And for the purpose of rectifying the scale which governs the import, the general proportion which the price of oats bears to the price of wheat, appearing to exceed the proportion which was assumed Ito exist, when 27 s. was fixed as the import price of oats, your Committee suggest, that it would be expedient to increase that price, so as to bear a more accurate proportion to the price of wheat. The scale at which barley is estimated appearing to be more correct than that of oats, the same proportion which it now bears to wheat, appears fit to continue, under any future alteration of the import price. The 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th clauses of the act, which regulates the importation of corn, make provision far admitting corn, meal, or flour, being the growth, produce, or manufacture of any British colony or plantation in North. America, for home consumption, when British wheat is at a lower price than 80 s.; with regard to which colonies, it will be consistent with good faith and sound policy to preserve the same relative preference above foreign corn, in the event of any future alteration being applied to the scale of prices or of duties.
In compliance with an application made to them by several of the owners of the foreign grain now stored in warehouses, your Committee have already recom-

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mended, that permission may be granted under sufficient and adequate regulations, toe convert it into flour, and export it in that shape, by which means some portion of this large stock will be carried out of the kingdom, and remove all apprehension that the quantities so ground down can ever enter into competition with our borne produce; but in the event of a large portion not being thus disposed of, and still remaining in store, it appears practicable to adopt a method which may render this remainder also advantageous, rather than detrimental, in, its effect upon the value of British corn, whenever the average price of our wheat shall have risen to 70 s. and fluctuate between 70 s. and 80 s.; for if it be then allowed to be taken out for home consumption, subject to a duty of 17 s. per quarter, for the first three months, and afterwards to a duty of 12 s., the interest of the proprietors of this grain will be brought strictly into unison with that of the British agriculturist, and into direct hostility to that of all other importers of foreign grain; so that every endeavour will be resorted to, on their part, to advance the price to 70 s. that they may liberate their own stock; but to keep it below 80 s. that they may exclude all foreign competitors. The equitable claim which the holders of the grain, already deposited under the act of the 55th of the late king, appear to possess, will thus be beneficially preserved to them, and the danger of an immense influx of foreign, produce will be mitigated and deferred, if not wholly prevented. It must of course be left optional to the proprietors in question, to avail themselves of this permission, or to abide by the conditions of the existing law, under which they imported; but in the first case, the payment of a moderate duty will enable them, at an earlier period, to enter a market over which they may exercise some control, conjointly with all the dealers in British corn; while in the other they can hardly expect to stem the torrent of foreign produce poured in upon our existing supply, and the immediate depression of value which must unavoidably accompany it. If the circumstances of this country should hereafter allow the trade in corn to be permanently settled upon a footing constantly open to all the world, but subject to such a fixed and uniform duty as might compensate to the British grower the difference of expense at which his corn can he raised and brought to market, toge-
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ther with the fair rate of profit upon the capital employed, compared with the expense of production, and other charges attending corn grown and imported from abroad, such a system would in many respects be preferable to any modification of regulations depending upon average prices, with an ascending and descending scale of duties; because it would prevent the effects of combination and speculation, in endeavouring to raise or depress those averages, and render immaterial those inaccuracies which, from management or negligence, have occasionally produced, and may again produce, such mischievous effects upon our market; but your Committee rather look forward to such a system as fit to keep in view for the ultimate tendency of our than as practicable within any short or definite period. A protecting duty which might at this day be hardly sufficient to guard our home market from the most overwhelming competition, might, when the excessive abundance on the continent shall have been absorbed, operate against the real wants of this kingdom, and subject, the growers, as well as the consumers to the greatest inconveniences. Years of dearth may again make it indispensable to have recourse to foreign produce for a part of our supply, although in seasons of ordinary plenty it may be hoped that our own agriculture has been so improved and extended, as to secure this kingdom from a state of dependence upon other and eventually hostile, territories for the subsistence of its population.
Your Committee have felt it their, duty, for obvious reasons, to lay without further delay before the House, the result of theirs deliberations; but they would consider that they had omitted a most material part of the task imposed upon them if they neglected to inquire into the present system upon which foreign corn is ware-housed. Your Committee are now engaged in carefully investigating this important subject, and they will not fail to report the result to the House as early as the nature of their inquiry will permit.
April 1, 1822.

COLONIAL TRADE BILL.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of the whole House on the Colonial Trade Acts,
Mr. Robinsonrose and said:*
* From the original edition printed for Hatchard and Son.

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Mr. Brogden; before I proceed to submit to the Committee the proposition with which I shall conclude, I am anxious to state that I am not about to propose any thing, in the present stage of the business, which can pledge any individual as to the ultimate course which he may think it right to pursue. The forms of the House requite that all questions relating to commerce should be first opened in a committee; and I shall do nothing more, at present, than move that the chairman be directed to ask for leave to bring in two bills for regulating the trade of the colonies. But, although the question, in its present shape, is to be considered as merely technical and formal, I feel it, nevertheless, to be my duty to submit to the committee a full explanation of the nature of the proposed bills. I fear that in doing so, I may be under the necesssity of troubling the committee at greater length than it may be agreeable to them to listen to me: but, considering the great importance of the subject, as affecting the interests of our commerce and our navigation, it is most material that, before I state the alterations of the law which I wish to recommend, I should endeavour distinctly to explain the nature, the extent, and the effects of the law as it now exists. I am the more anxious to do this, because I am well aware that any one who proposes to alter in any degree, that which is understood to be the ancient policy of our navigation laws, is considered as touching that which is too sacred to be meddled with, and which cannot be so touched without risking the best interests and the security of the state. I trust, however, that I shall be able to show, even to the most timid and jealous supporters of our former colonial policy, that if we attentively consider the present state of the laws upon this subject, the change which I am about to recommend (however it may depart from the more ancient policy and practice of the law) involves a much less material departure from its actual condition, than many gentlemen may at first sight be disposed to imagine.
The original principle of the navigation law, as it applied to our colonies, restricted them to a direct trade with the mother country, compelling them to concentrate their produce here, and to derive their supplies from hence. But in most of its essential particulars, this principle has been entirely abandoned in respect to many, and greatly modified in respect
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to the remainder of our foreign possessions. If we look to the dominions of England in the Eastern Hemisphere, we shall find, that however wise or beneficial the restrictive system may have been in its original adoption (and I by no means question either its abstract wisdom, or its practical utility at that period of our history), it has, nevertheless, in that quarter of the world, been entirely and systematically abandoned. The trade of Ceylon, of the Mauritius, of the Cape of Good Hope, is at this moment comparatively free: the trade of the East India Company's territories has never been shackled by the peculiar restrictions of the Navigation laws, and in our own days has received great additional freedom and extension: we have not deemed it prudent, or even practicable to apply to possessions of such vast extent, such a dense population, such abundant resources, such facilities for active commerce, and such means of circulating and promoting wealth, a principle of systematic restraint.—And who will say that the interests of either of commerce or of navigation have suffered; or rather who will deny that they have materially benefited by the freedom which they have thus enjoyed?
But even if we look to the Western Hemisphere to which the present question more immediately applies, and if we examine the laws which now regulate its commerce, even there the committee will perceive that the rigid application of our ancient colonial policy is no longer in existence. The relaxation may have been the result of accident and circumstances, rather than of design; but it is sufficient for my argument to show that the change has actually taken place. So far from our West Indian and North American colonies being hermetically sealed against foreign commerce, there is scarcely one which has not a free port open by the act of 1805, and various subsequent laws, to the importation of foreign produce in foreign ships:—The articles which may be thus imported, comprise almost all the productions of the Spanish and Portuguese colonies, calculated for the markets of this this country, as well as various other articles, the produce of the United States, most essential to the successful cultivation of our colonial soils, and the comfortable maintenance of our colonial population. Foreign vessels are allowed, on the other hand, to export from the same free ports not only various productions of our colo-

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nies, but almost every species of manufacture which the ingenuity of our native artisans can supply for foreign consumption.
But there is another branch of the colonial trade, to which it is peculiarly important to advert—I mean that with the United States.
Previous to the independence of that extensive country, the sugar colonies in the West Indies found there a beneficial market for their own produce, and a ready means of supply for their immediate wants; the lumber, the corn, the flour of North America was exchangeable for the sugar, the rum, the molasses, the coffee of the West Indies; and when the independence of the United States put an end to that intercourse, and brought the rigid principle of the colonial system into operation, parliament soon found the necessity of its relaxation, and accordingly, in the year 1788, an act was passed, which renewed this intercourse as a measure of indispensable necessity. It is true, indeed, that it was restricted to British shipping; but even in that respect one qualification was admitted, inasmuch as American vessels were allowed to come in ballast to Turk's Island, for the purpose of taking salt, which was the staple commodity of that island. The war which ensued a few years afterwards, led by degrees to a more extensive freedom of intercourse. The wants of the colonies were at times of so pressing a nature, that the governors were induced, by absolute necessity, to take upon themselves the responsibility of issuing proclamations to authorise the admission of American as well as British vessels into this intercourse: and so satisfied was parliament of the urgency of the case, and the propriety of the relaxation, that acts of indemnity were constantly passed as matters of course, without the slightest hesitation or dissent. At length, in the year 1806, the system of relaxation was carried one step further, and his majesty in council was authorised, upon his view of the general necessity of the case, to allow the intercourse to be carried on in American ships: and finally, by various statutes passed at subsequent periods, a permanent permission was given to American, vessels, to import into the island of Bermuda, and into the ports of Halifax and St. John's, in Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, all the staple productions of the United states and to export all the Staple productions of the West India
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Island as well as British manufactures of every description.
Such being the present state of the law as respects that quarter of the globe, let us now look to the intercourse which these colonies may carry on with Europe. This trade is confined to British ships, but it nevertheless involves a material departure from the principle of the navigation laws. It has now for some years been competent to British vessels to convey the produce of our colonies to any port South of Cape Finisterre, and to take back (in the same vessel) various articles of importance for the consumption of the colonies: this relaxation has been still further extended with regard to the island of Malta, and the port of Gibraltar.
Looking, then, to the operation of all these laws, to which I have referred, and comparing them with that system from which they have diverged, I think I have established, as an undeniable proposition, that in the Western as well as in the Eastern Hemisphere, the lapse of time and the change of circumstances, has already effected a most material and substantial alteration in our policy; and I cannot but be persuaded that the committee will feel with me, that the extension which I propose to give to that alteration, and which I am now about to explain, may be considered as an almost necessary consequence of what has already been done.
I propose then, in the first place, to repeal the various laws which now regulate our colonial trade, and which, having been passed at different times, and with different objects, are not only intricate and confused, but in no small degree contradictory. The whole system might then be comprised in two laws, one relating to the intercourse of our colonies with America, and the other to their intercourse with the rest of the world: and this alteration would, at all events, have the advantage of simplicity and clearness.
The next step would be, to provide for the intercourse which it would be advise-able hereafter to permit as the permanent system of the country.—And first, with respect to America, I would propose to enact, that British vessels, as well as those belonging to countries in America, either continental or insular, and belonging either to European sovereign or, to Independent American States, should be allowed to import into certain free ports, to be named in the new act, all those

1419
articles which may now by law be imported into any of our colonies in that part of the world; the export would also be permitted from the same ports, in similar vessels, of all, articles, the produce of the British dominions, and of all articles legally imported into the British colonies. It should, I conceive, be rendered competent to his majesty in council, to add, by order in council, both to the ports, and to the list of articles, so allowed to be the object of the intercourse. I am satisfied that the committee will feel with me, that the foreign ships, to which this participation in the trade may be extended, should be precisely upon the same footing, as to duties and charges, as those of our own country; because it is obvious that if we were to attempt to impose upon them any distinct or additional burthens, we should only be inviting foreign governments to apply corresponding restrictions and charges to our own shipping. In order, however, to ensure a due reciprocity on the part of other states, in this intercourse, care should be taken in the new law, that its provisions should not apply to the vessels of any foreign states, which did not admit British vessels to equal and reciprocal advantages in their ports.
I must here, however, refer to a matter, which appears to me to be of considerable importance, and to deserve the particular attention of the House—I allude to the effect which the proposed measure may haw upon the commerce now carried on between our West India and North American colonies. Every one knows that the staple articles of produce in the latter are similar to those of the United States; and recent circumstances, arising out of our restrictions on the one hand, and retaliatory restrictions by the United States on the other, have led to a much more extended import of corn, flour, and lumber from Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, than otherwise would have taken place.—This trade will necessarily be more or less affected by the proposed changes; and I confess that I do feel that our North American colonists have strong claims upon us for a favourable consideration of their peculiar interests. Speaking the same language, living under the same laws as ourselves, distinguished by the same characteristic traits as their European brethren, they have secured, by their attachment to their mother country, a title to her gratitude and protection. That protection can, in
1420
this instance, be afforded to them in no other way than by imposing a moderate duty upon the importation into the West Indies, of those foreign articles, such as grain, flour, and lumber, which are equally the production of our own dominions. I shall not now trouble the committee, by going into any details upon this part of the subject, farther than to state that the duties should be so moderately calculated, and so justly apportioned, as not to deprive the people of the United States, of their fair proportion of this necessary supply, or seriously to enhance the price to the consumer.
I now come to the intercourse between our colonies and other parts of the world, exclusive of America. This intercourse I would confine to British ships; but I would allow the direct importation into the colonies of all articles which, under the existing system, may be legally imported there through the indirect channel of the mother country, or through Malta and Gibraltar, or the other places in Europe, with which a limited trade is now allowed; and instead of requiring that the different productions of our colonies should, as a general principle of policy, reach foreign markets, through the sole medium of the United Kingdom, I would permit them to be conveyed at once from the place of their growth to that of their ultimate consumption.
This is the general outline of the new arrangements which, I trust, the House will be disposed to adopt; and I am satisfied that those who have followed me in the detail of the existing laws, and have compared them with the proposed modifications, will admit that I was correct, when I stated, at the outset, that a much less extensive change will be effected, than many persons might at first sight be disposed to apprehend. They will have observed, for instance, that, with respect to foreign produce and foreign vessels, Spanish, Portuguese, and other foreign ships already have liberty to enter certain of our harbours, either to bring or to take away a great variety of important articles; that the ships of the United States may already convey their own produce directly to some of our possessions, and carry, our produce directly from thence; that the corn and flour of that country may reach all the British possessions, through other European colonies, entirely in foreign ships; and that my proposition is in truth simply this—to substitute a direct inter-

1421
course for one which is circuitous, dilatory, and expensive.
Having thus explained to the committee the nature of the proposition which I intend to submit to them, it is now my duty to state the grounds upon which I wish to rest the propriety of these measures.
In the first place, I must again call the attention of the committee to the provisions of the Free Port act of 1805; and particularly to that part of it which limits the trade to countries which are under the dominion of some foreign European sovereign or state. No one who has watched the progress of the events which, in the few last years, have occurred in America, and who has reflected upon the causes which have led to those events, can say how soon the situation of those extensive regions may be totally changed, and how soon they may be emancipated from all dependence upon their former masters. The termination, then, of European sovereignty would, ipso facto, terminate the free port trade. But I apprehend that no one would be disposed to contend, that the independence of those states would constitute a reason for again imposing upon our colonies those shackles, which so many motives had induced us to remove. Assuming, therefore, that the free port laws would be suffered to continue in full operation, the committee will see that the continuance of them, under these altered circumstances, would necessarily involve the adoption of a new principle of very great importance in the whole of this question—I mean the systematic admission of the flags of foreign independent States in America into the ports of our colonies. But if this principle be admitted with respect to one independent American state, how could we refuse it to another, if such other state were equally ready to give to us a reciprocity in its own ports? Could we, upon any principle of policy or prudence, make so marked a distinction in our system, as to say to the Brazils, to Columbia, to Mexico, "You shall be admitted;" and to the United States, "You shall be excluded!" Surely such a course would be unwise in the highest degree, leading to every species of jealousy, ill-will, and irritation, and tending obviously to interrupt, or at least to weaken, the harmony, which now so happily subsists between us. It never can, in my judgment, be prudent for this country to make distinctions of this sort. We ought rather so to frame our regulations in commerce,
1422
as to show to all nations that justice, equity, and impartiality, are the ruling principles of our conduct.
I am now desirous of calling the attention of the committee to the mode in which this question is affected by the actual state of foreign possessions in the western world. In former times, the policy of all the European possessors of distant territories led them to the establishment, and to the maintenance of restrictions as rigid as our own. But the force of events, and the imperceptible lapse of time, have effected a complete change in that state of things. In spite of the laws, the wishes, and the prejudices both of Portugal and Spain, the two productive colonies of Brazil and Cuba are, at this moment, practically open to a free trade with foreign nations; and it cannot be imagined for a moment, that any external force could again bring them within their ancient limitations. It is in these two colonies that are furnished the most abundant supplies of all the valuable productions of a tropical climate. They supply their own wants from every from whence they can most readily be satisfied, and they freely pour their own abundance into every channel which can convey it to the markets where it is required. Why, then, are we voluntarily to deprive ourselves of the means of meeting them in fair competition? Why are we to clog our operations in colonial commerce with an expensive mode of supply for our wants, and a restricted market for our produce?
But, Sir, there is another topic connected with this branch of the subject, upon which I feel particularly anxious to say a few words—I mean the question of the slave trade. England has, in defiance of old prejudices, and in opposition to the personal interests of many, manfully, honestly, and (as far as she is concerned) effectually abolished that unhallowed traffic: she has raised up an imperishable monument to Christian benevolence and national honour; she has endeavoured, by every exertion of diplomatic talent, and by great pecuniary sacrifices, to lead other states into the same humane and honourable course. In some respects her efforts have not been unsuccessful: but we all know how lamentably deficient has, hitherto, been the execution, by Spain and Portugal, of those promises which were at one time held out to us by the governments of those countries. We know that at this moment' incessant supplies of fresh slaves are an-

1423
nually poured into Cuba the Brazils; we know the facility which these supplies give to the extended cultivation of those fertile soils: we know that the sugar of the Brazils and Cuba, thus raised through the medium of an unlimited importation of new slaves, at a cheaper rate than it can now be in our own colonies, goes direct to the most lucrative markets in Europe, to rival and to undersell the produce of that very nation by which the slave trade has been abolished. What I ask, then, for the British colonies is, that they should be placed upon a footing of equality in this respect, and I am confident that I ask nothing but what is reasonable, just, and wise.
Looking, then, at all these combined considerations, to the relaxation of our colonial policy which has already taken place, and to the manifest advantages which we have derived from it—looking to the actual practice of other states; and looking, lastly, to the connexion of all these matters with the question of the slave trade, I think there may be deduced unanswerable arguments for the farther change which I have ventured to recommend.
It may, however, be asked, Why I would take the present moment for effecting this object? Why now provide regulations to meet what may be a distant contingency? Why not wait for the actual independence of the foreign colonies to which allusion has been made? To this I answer shortly, "Look at the state of distress which prevails in our islands." I will not trouble the committee by endeavouring to prove the existence of that distress, by statements of figures, and details of calculation:—it can neither be denied nor doubted. It is well known, that whilst, from a variety of causes, the produce of the British colonies has greatly increased, it has not been absorbed by a corresponding increase of consumption either at home or abroad. What, then, is the obvious remedy? Either a diminution of produce, or an extension of market. The former alternative cannot be contemplated without the most serious alarm, both as respects the proprietor of the estates, and the slaves of whom he ought to be, and I trust is, the generous protector. Ruin the proprietor, and you expose his unfortunate slaves to the horrors of famine, and every aggravation of his unhappy condition. Open, if you can, new markets for his produce, and you give
1424
him the best chance of retrieving his shattered fortunes, and of maintaining his negro dependents in comparative case and comfort. The planter and the slave have a common interest in the success of my propositions.
Still, however, it may be urged against me, that I anticipate too much benefit from the intended relaxation:—"The markets of the world are overstocked;" "no new vent can be found;" "all will end in disappointment, and increased distress." This, however, is nothing more than the common argument in favour of all monopolies, and against all relaxation of commercial fetters. It might, indeed, be easy to show by figures, and by documents, that this or that particular market would not offer much prospect of immediate advantage, not at least so much as might be conformable to the eager wishes of those who are suffering from distress: but surely this sort of reasoning is founded upon a very erroneous and contracted view of the subject. Those who have studied the history of commerce, who have watched its expansive and penetrating qualities, its imperceptible, but almost equally certain tendency to increase, are well aware that when its chains are once broken, there is no calculating to what an extent it may ultimately be carried. I know not, Sir, that I can better illustrate what I mean, than by availing myself of the language which a great poet has applied to the qualities of the soul of man. In combating the opinion that climate as an over-ruling influence over the power of the mind, he says—
—"What seasons can control,
What fancied zone can circumscribe the soul?
Who conscious of the source from whence she springs,
By Reason's light, on Resolution's wings,
Spite of her frail companion, dauntless goes,
O'er Lybia's deserts, and through Zembla's snows."
This language, beautiful and poetical as it is, as applied to the point which it was intended by the poet to illustrate, becomes the veriest prose when applied to the spirit of commerce. Give it but the light of reason for its guide, and enterprise will never be wanting to convey it to every quarter of the globe. Confident, then, that the measure which I have recommended, rests upon sound principles—confident that it is calculated to promote the trade, and thereby necessa-

1425
rily to extend the navigation of the country—I beg to move the, two following Resolutions:—

1. "That the chairman be directed to ask for leave to bring in a bill to regulate the trade between his majesty's possessions in America and the West Indies, and other places in America and the West Indies.

2. That the chairman be directed to ask for leave to bring in a bill to regulate the trade between his majesty's possessions in America and the West Indies, and other parts of the World, exclusive of America and the West Indies."

Mr. Wilberforcecomplimented the right hon. gentleman upon the steady support which he had given to the abolition of the slave trade, but feared that the bills proposed to be introduced would, by increasing the intercourse of our colonies with other nations, facilitate the illicit importation of slaves. The hon. gentleman also adverted to the system of registry devised as a security against the introduction of new Negroes into our islands. In Trinidad, he believed it was carried fully into effect, but in many of our islands, and in the principal one, Jamaica, it was in a very limited degree attended to.
Mr. Barhamdid not believe, that the measure proposed would have the effect of introducing fresh slaves into the British colonies. The planters, indeed, must be mad who thought of importation at the present moment, for, so far from having money to buy new Negroes, they had not the means of supporting those already in their possession. He would support the bills, for he thought it absolutely necessary to do something for the relief of the colonial interest.
Mr. Marryatconsidered the measure as one of the greatest importance, not only with respect to its general object, the amelioration of trade, but also as it affected the Negroes. From the state in which their masters were at present, they were in extreme distress. The measure, therefore, whilst it went to save the masters from ruin, was also highly interesting to the slaves. The object of it was to place those who had abolished the slave trade upon the same footing with those who had net. As a proof of the vast opening there was for an extended commerce emanating from the West Indian colonies, he had that morning seen a list of 575 ships engaged last year in that branch of trade. As to the navigation or
1426
any other interests, minor interests must give way to a system of great general good like this. One thing he thought had been left out of the plan of the right hon. gentleman, which was, a provision to permit the exportation of British goods from one West India island to another. This certainly called for a change. It frequently happened in consequence of this prohibition, that relief could not be afforded to a neighbouring colony in the greatest distress. Surely there ought to be no distinction made between islands, the inhabitants of which should all be considered as one family.
Mr. Fowell Buxtontinned, that the House would recollect a discussion which had taken place last session as to the importation of East India sugar. When it was proposed to permit the importation of East India sugar upon the same terms exacted the importation of West India, the answer was, that as England monopolized the West India markets, compelling the colonies to buy and sell with her and with her only, therefore she was bound, as long as she maintained that monopoly, to admit no competitor into the market which she afforded. He hoped, that if the concession now proposed was made to the planters, the restriction upon the importation of East India sugar would be removed; for certainly, all the sound principles of general commerce applied just as fully to the admission of East India sugar into this country as to the sale of West India in foreign markets. As regarded the condition of slaves, too, in our West India islands, he had farther objections beyond the inefficiency of the Registry act; and he trusted that the present opportunity would be taken, to demand the correction of the objectionable practices, in return for advantages bestowed. One most important point necessary to the happiness of slaves in our West India islands was, that they should become adscripti glebœ. The House did not know, perhaps, that under the present system the slave was nothing more than a chattel. A man might be born on a plantation, grow up, build a house, marry a wife, and have a family; and after all, without the slightest offence committed, or even imputed, be sold by his master, and transferred from his house, wife, and family, to the most distant island in the British possession: [Cries of "no, no."] If not to the new colonies, then, he might at all events be

1427
transferred to any one of the old islands, and that was sufficient for his argument. This practice was an injustice, as gross and as enormous as the slave-trade itself had been; and the present moment of concession ought to be seized for getting rid of it. There were other matters as to which alteration was important—the judicial system, the law as to marriages of slaves, and other regulations. He hoped if the bills proposed were passed, that the adoption of a better course would be insisted on.
Mr. Huskissondenied that any thing like exclusive advantage was intended to the colonies by the arrangement contemplated. The case had been opened by his right hon. friend as a broad question of commercial policy. The advantage projected was to all—to the navigation, to the mother country, and to the West India possessions. The right hon. gentleman then touched upon the effect of the proposed bills as applying to the slave trade, and denied that any facility would be created by the free intercourse greater than that which already existed. What had of late years afforded so much encouragement to the slave-trade, as that intercourse which, through the mistaken policy of the British government, had gone on extending itself between the United States and Cuba, as well as the Brazils? Had the British West India islands been at liberty to export their produce to all the northern parts of America, we should not have found the people of this latter country deriving all their supplies of certain articles, from the colonies of other European states, which were thereby induced to enlarge their cultivation, and to import an additional number of slaves. The same cause had operated to increase the distress and difficulties of our planters, and indirectly to spread the horrors of the detestable traffic which all our old and respectable colonists, wished to see finally abolished. We might form some notion of the benefit that would have resulted to the West Indies from an open trade with North America, supposing that in the existing superfluity of our own produce a new foreign market was discovered for it. The hon. gentleman who `Spoke before him seemed to intimate his dissent from this part of his argument, and had already remarked, that much of the evil was to be traced to our impolitic acquisition of too many colonies during the last war. But, admitting this to be
1428
the fact, what could be inferred from it, except that it helped to furnish an irresistible case for the planter in the older West India colonies? Here was ground enough, in justice to him, for relaxing our laws, particularly as respected East India sugars. The views under which ministers were disposed to proceed did not imply a sudden or entire departure from our former system, bad as it might be, but such a modification, as, it was hoped, would accomplish gradually the desired end, with as little individual hardship, or disturbance of existing interests, as was possible. When they reflected on the history of our West India islands, they must all feel it to be a serious obligation imposed on them, so to shape our general policy as to confer upon those islands as many advantages as were consistent with our own interests in Europe. The ancient system of this country was, above all things, to encourage and promote the slave trade, and the increase of our colonies was regarded as a subordinate object. It was in this point of view that our ancestors looked upon the West Indies, and although we of this age had happily regarded the African slave-trade as wholly inconsistent with humanity and religion, it once was unquestionably fostered with especial care. This was demonstrated by the whole course of our commercial policy—by bounties, by treaties, by the variety of sacrifices which could have had no other end than to exclude neighbouring countries from any participation of the guilty traffic. He now anxiously hoped to see a different course adopted, and that parliament would proceed to enable the masters in our colonies to treat their slaves in the way which he was satisfied would be most congenial to their own feelings. Supposing that cheaper sugar might be imported from the East Indies—and he was far from believing that a state of slavery was the fittest for rendering labour cheap—yet undoubtedly there were circumstances which would otherwise, from the extreme cheapness of labour in the east, extinguish all competition on the part of the West Indies. From a principle of justice, therefore, and in order to induce the masters to afford protection to the unfortunate beings committed to their care, we were bound to favour them, and extend towards them a beneficent and liberal policy. They had a certain population to support, at all events, and whether their foreign trade was more or less

1429
restricted. The hon. member for Bramber had reminded them that the same difficulties and pressure existed at this moment in the mother country; but the case was far from being precisely similar; and people here would feel themselves much more deeply aggrieved if there were open markets on the continent which they were not permitted to supply. His hon. friend must allow, that the existence of such a demand with the perfect freedom of supplying it, would administer a very great relief, and that of this relief our West India planters were deprived. He could perceive no solid reason for objecting to the proposed measure. Every argument founded on humanity alone, certainly appeared to him to be in favour of, not in opposition to, it. He should merely add, that he considered the proposed measure as not less a boon to the mother country, than to her colonies. He should be sorry to find the subject mixed up with other questions of great difficulty and delicacy, and which even those who touched on them did not wish to force into immediate discussion.
Mr. Plummerexpressed his satisfaction at the introduction of the measure, and read some parts of a letter to prove that the West India colonies were, together with distress, threatened with a famine.
Mr. Evansthought that some positive regulations should be made to prevent the importation of fresh slaves.
Mr. W. Smithsaid, that the present race of West India planters seemed to be influenced by views so different from those of their predecessors, and the question now before them involved merits so distinct, that he was unwilling to throw the least impediment in its way. Whatever was consistent with the welfare or interests of this country, he was disposed to concede. He feared, however, that the new system could only be established at our expense; and it could not be disputed that the distress at home was equally great with the distress in the colonies.
Mr. Philipshoped, that the consideration of no individual interests would be permitted of interfere with a measure which was consistent with the soundest principles of commercial policy and justice. He was convinced that by the operation of this measure a stop would be put to the continuance of the slave trade.
Mr. Brightwas of opinion that Canada ought to have the advantage of the pro-
1430
posed measure. It was unwise to throw difficulties in the way of this measure, which was calculated to give a blow to the remains of the slave trade, and by the progression of civilization to confer the highest benefits on the slaves of the West India colonies.
Mr. Butterworthsupported the general principle, and believed it would tend to promote an effectual abolition.
The resolutions were agreed to; and leave was given to bring in the two bills.

MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES—SECRET SERVICE MONEY.
The House resolved itself into a committee of supply. On the resolution, "That 40,000 l. be granted, for his majesty's foreign and other secret services, for the year 1822,"
Mr. Humewished to know why the sum was so large in time of peace? He could not see for what purpose this large sum was wanted; certainly it could be for no good purpose. It was giving ministers the means of doing harm. If the money was properly disposed of, they would not be afraid to let the public know how it was applied. He believed the vote was but 15 or 20,000 l. before the late war.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, if the hon. member wished to know the amount expended under this head n former years, he might have an account of the expenditure in each year for the last eleven years; but if he wished to know the particular details of how it was expended, it was rather an Irish proposition, for it would then be secret service money no longer. The hon. member would find that Mr. Burke had not dissented from the principle of the grant for secret services, bur, on the contrary, had admitted it to be necessary for carrying on the government. With respect to the present grant, he could state, that the greater part he believed 24,000 l., arose out of the late war, and was not referable to a state of peace.
Mr. Humedid not deny the principle of secret service money, but was anxious to know what quantum of the present grant was given to particular persons. The noble lord had last year stated, that the expence of a part of the proceedings against her late majesty, namely the Milan commission, was defrayed out of the secret service money. This appeared to be an application of the fund which never could have been contemplated by parliament.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid the principle of the expenditure was in cases where the honour and interest of the country were concerned, and in the case mentioned it would not be contended that the honour of the country was not concerned. Parliament had so considered it last year; but when it ceased to be a secret service the money required was openly paid to the solicitor employed.
Mr. Hobhousesaid, that the secret service money voted last year was 25,000 l.; this year it was 40,000 l.; and yet, last year, the expence of the Milan commission had been defrayed out of the fund. He was at a loss to understand why, when the country was at peace, so large an expence was necessary. If the name and the power of this country were not sufficient to maintain her influence at foreign courts, the underhand application of bribery could not be of much avail. As to the authority of Mr. Burke, he could quote sentiments from that writer in support of every line of policy, however contradictory.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, it was not to be supposed that precisely the same sum would every year be necessary for this service. The hon. member was not justified in using the term bribery, as applicable to the present question.
Mr. Hobhousedid not mean to impute bribery in the grossest sense of the word; but the noble marquis was too well acquainted with foreign courts not to know that if he wished to preserve a particular influence, we must fight with silver spears.
Mr. Arbuthnotsaid, that a smaller sum had last year been voted, because a considerable portion of the grant of the preceeding year remained unexpended.
The resolution was then agreed to.
On the resolution, "That 78,794 l. be granted for Contingent Expences and Messengers Bills in the Departments of the Treasury, three Secretaries of State, Privy Council, and lord Chamberlain, for the year 1822,"
Mr. Humeobjected to the enormous proportion of charge, under the head of the foreign secretary of state's department amounting alone to 30.000 l. Some explanation ought to be given of the manner in which this charge had accrued: nor did he see any thing to warrant the charge under the head of the lord chamberlain's department.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that the charge in the foreign secretaries de-
1432
partment arose out of the extensive correspondence which it was compelled to carry on. The fact was, that though the hon. gentleman opposite contended that we possessed so little influence on, the continent, no political business of importance was transacted in any European court, without the government of this country being communicated with.
Mr. G. Bennetmoved to reduce this sum of 10,000 l. He felt the less hesitation in proposing this amendment, because a great part of the vote was not for the compensatien of services already performed, but an estimate of expenses to he hereafter incurred.
The committee divided: For the Amendment 19. Against it 67.

List of the Minority.

Barrett, S. M.

Martin, J.

Bernal, R.

Maule, hon. W.

Bright, H.

Palmer, C. F.

Calvert, N.

Robarts, A.

Colburne, C.

Robarts, col.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Robinson, sir G.

Hume, J.

Smith, W.

James, W.

Whitbread, S.

Lushington, Dr.

TELLER.

Moore, P.

Bennet, hon. H. G.

Monck, J. B.

The resolution was agreed to, and the House resumed.

ROASTED WHEAT.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he had intended to move for a copy of the opinion of the attorney and solicitor-general on all the cases of prosecution instituted by the Excise against persons selling Roasted Wheat, &c. but he had altered his motion at the suggestion of the noble earl opposite. He would briefly call their lordships' attention to the returns on their table. It appeared from them that the commissioners of Excise had thought themselves authorized by act of parliament, not merely

1401
to prosecute persons charged with, or suspected of frauds on the revenue, but also persons who were guilty of no fraud, nor of any fraudulent intention, and who only wished to do that which every subject had a right to do; namely, to sell articles of food not forbidden by the law. On looking at the acts of parliament, it might be very possible that, under the opinion of the officers of the Crown, the commissioners of Excise saw ground for proceeding as they had done. He meant a technical ground; for, surely, neither their lordships nor the other House of Legislature could have meant that the law should be applied in any other way than to protect the revenue against fraud. The last act on the subject was passed on the application of the commissioners, because it had been found difficult to prove fraud to the satisfaction of juries. He did not mean to say that, with such a revenue as this country had to collect, severe laws were not necessary; but there was a great distinction between prosecutions for fraud, and prosecutions not for any fraud whatever, or even any alleged fraud. He never could believe, that it had been the intention of the legislature to give to any persons the right of determining what articles should be sold or taxed. There had, besides, been an arbitrary selection of persons for prosecution. The board of Excise laid down a distinction which they had no right to make. They had decided that persons might roast wheat for their own use, but that those who sold it were to be prosecuted. The commissioners of Excise were thus assuming a power which parliament could not intrust to any authority in the country. With regard to the impolicy of the proceeding, he thought there could be no doubt. He was prepared to contend, that no manufacture could be more beneficial to the country than that which, by making new articles of food, increased the consumption of its productions. On the ground of national expediency, therefore, their lordships would do well to watch such proceedings. The power to prosecute when fraud was not distinctly seen was just; but nothing could be more unjust than that it should exist where no fraud was alleged. In the case where an article was sold openly, and without any intention to substitute it fraudulently for another, it was entitled to the full protection of the law. He would conclude by moving for, copies of all convictions
1402
under prosecutions by the board, of Excise for the sale of articles composed of bread, corn, roasted wheat, &c.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he did not object to the motion. He admitted that he saw no reason why persons should be prohibited from selling roasted wheat, or any other roasted grain. But the question was, whether an opening was not made for fraud when it was sold in the state of powder. The prohibition in that case might be necessary, not only for the protection of the revenue, but for, the protection of the purchasers of the article, which was thereby liable to be adulterated. Parliament was bound to guard against frauds of this nature, and prohibition was for the interest of the individuals liable to be imposed on.—The motion was agreed to.