Sitting of 25 May 1821

FORGERY PUNISHMENT MITIGATION BILL.
The report of the committee on this bill having been brought up,
Sir J. Mackintoshsaid, that he intended to move three amendments, which he did not think would excite discussion. The House had declared its opinion, that the severe punishment in cases of forgery ought to be reduced. In the majority on that question were to be found eminent and enlightened merchants and bankers; amongst whom were his hon. friends the members for Taunton and Wendover. In framing the bill originally, he, in deference to the judgments of others, had made some considerable sacrifice of his own opinions. In compliance with the wishes of a considerable portion of the majority of the other night, he was now about to propose some important exceptions. The first exception related to the forging of wills. The next exception related to two species of forgery under the Marriage act; the first relating to the forgery of marriage entries, and the second to the forgery of licences. He concluded by moving the amendments.
Mr. Crippssaid, that as the Bank of England was excepted so, in fairness, ought there to be an exception for the protection of country banks.
Sir J. Mackintoshsaid, it would be open to any member to propose further exceptions On the third reading.
Mr. Grenfellsaw no reason for excepting the Bank of England; but if there was any reason, it applied as strongly to country banks.
Mr. J. Martinsaid, he must oppose the bill in a future stage, unless the punishment for forgery, in all cases, was transportation for life.
Mr. Bennetsaid, that transportation, so far from being considered a punishment, was really a bounty upon crime.
Mr. Baringcould see no ground for excepting forgeries on the Bank of England. It was well known that the Bank did not pay their forged notes. The question of their exception was not, therefore, a question between the Bank and the public, but a question as to the very principle upon which the bill rested. This principle was, that mild but certain punishments were better calculated than severe punishments to prevent the commission of crime. Indeed, if that principle were not true, the present bill was good for nothing. The doubts which he felt regarding this bill related to the secondary punishment which it was its object to provide. His hon. friend had said, that transportation was the only secondary punishment which could be inflicted; if that were the case, he should feel himself compelled to vote against the bill, as he was of opinion that transportation even for life was not a punishment at all calculated to prevent a crime to which there were so many temptations as forgery.
Mr. J. Smithobjected to the judges being allowed a discretion in affixing the punishment for forgery. The punishment should be certain. He thought punishment by hard labour would prove the most effectual means of preventing forgery.
The amendments were agreed to.
Sir J. Mackintoshalso moved as an amendment, that the term of transportation for cases of forgery should be for a period not less than three and not exceeding fourteen years.
Mr. Baringsaid, he should be sorry to see the bill pass with this discretionary clause of imprisonment for three years. He should wish the crime of forgery to be punished by the peremptory infliction of fourteen years imprisonment and hard labour. If any case should occur in which that punishment might appear too severe* it would be in the power of the Crown to extend its mercy to the offender;
Dr. Lushingtonwas of opinion that the punishment for forgery ought never to be

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less than confinement to hard labour for ten years. He thought that no part of the punishment attached to it ought to be left to the discretion of the judge.
Sir J. Mackintoshwithdrew his amendment, and moved that the words "imprisoned for the term of ten years, to be kept to hard labour," be inserted; which was agreed to; as was also an amendment for excepting Scotland from the operation of the bill.
The bill, as amended, was ordered to be printed.

ARMY EXTRAORDINARIES.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, to which the Extraordinaries of the Army were referred, Mr. Arbuthnot moved, "That the sum of One Million be granted for defraying the Extraordinary Expenses of the Army for Great Britain, for the year 1821."
Colonel Daviesthought, that this vote should be accompanied with more exact details of the purposes to which it was applied. He suggested, that a saving might be effected by conveying the spirits direct from the West Indies to the foreign stations, as also the provisions from Ireland. No less a sum than 24,000 l. might also be saved by reducing the meat rations of the convicts at New South Wales, who were now better fed than our soldiers and sailors.
Mr. Maberlyremarked upon the manner in which the account was kept, as to the payment of our army in India, that payment being made by advances from the army extraordinaries, which the India Company covenanted to repay. But that covenant was not fulfilled, the advances having been equal to 1,400,000 l. since 1815, 446,000 l. remained due upon the last settlement with the Company. The more regular way would be, to have those payments set down in the army extraordinaries, and accounted for like the other items in that return, instead of being left afloat. Thus the account would be simplified, while the India Company would be finally responsible for the amount of the expenditure. There was another point connected with our Indian army, to which he thought it proper to call the attention of the committee. We gave 20,000 men to the India Company for the protection of its territory, and it appeared unfair that this country should be burthened with the half-pay of the men and officers composing that corps, after they became
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unable to serve. In point of justice, ought; not the India Company to meet, that expense?
Mr. Arbuthnotnot said, that the accounts would, it was hoped, be rendered more intelligible by the next session. As to the payment and half-pay of our army in India, he acquiesced in the propriety of some new arrangement upon that subject, and could assure the hon. gentleman that such an arrangement was under the serious consideration of government.
Mr. Baringcalled the attention of the committee to the mode in which the public accounts were kept. It was impossible to look at them as they were laid before the House, and understand what the various establishments to which they related cost the country. It was necessary that more general information should be furnished, and in a mode very different from the vague manner in which it was now laid before them.
Sir J. Yorkeanimadverted upon the grant of 8,000 l. for a breakwater at Heligoland, the whole island not being worth so much money, and there being no necessity whatever for retaining it.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that the sum of 8,000 l. included the whole military and naval expense of the island. Orders had been given to withdraw all the troops from Heligoland, and to reduce the charge to the lowest estimate.
Mr. Humewas extremely happy to hear, that, at last, his majesty's government had determined to reduce the extravagant and useless establishment of Heligoland. He had, in his observations on the Ordnance Estimates, shown, that that small island had, for the last year, cost the country upwards of 11,000 l., having its lieut. governor, staff, ordnance establishment, &c. If during the kind of war we had waged with Buonaparte, that isle had been essential to meet the prohibitions established by him against our trade to the continent, the establishment ought to have ceased with, the cause. Since the peace in 1815, upwards of 60 or 70,000 l. had been expended upon this place, and yet no complete account of that expenditure* under the head of Heligoland had, appeared at any time before the House. The charges were scattered under other heads, over every department, naval military, Ordnance, civil contingencies,; &c., to avoid observation. The charge;, of 7,894 l. noticed by the hon. baronet, was

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not the only one in these estimates. There was a charge of pay for one year of 600 l. to the lieut—governor, lieut. colonel King; why was not that staff-appointment, which had existed for several years, entered among the regular foreign staff? It was a fixed and regular charge, and ought not to be in the extraordinaries. If his, (Mr. Hume's) suggestion of laying before the House an annual estimate of the total expense of every foreign colony under the several heads or departments were attended to, the country would be astonished at the magnitude of the sums, and the amount of army extraordinaries would then be soon reduced. He had understood that a subaltern and 18 men formed the garrison of the island under the Danes; with us ever since the peace, 50 or 100 men had been kept, with all the paraphernalia of a separate government. With respect to provisions purchased for the rations of the army which had been alluded to by an hon. member, he would beg to make an observation or two. It had been stated, that the same kind of provisions were supplied to the navy at cheaper rates than for the army. He believed the fact: and would suggest, whether all the provisions for army and navy, might not be purchased by one board for both services. He had intended to have moved for a return of the contract-prices of the different kinds of provisions at the several stations, where contracts for both services had been made for the last ten years, to ascertain the fact; but should, for the present, content himself with mentioning his intention and object. If it should be true, that the contracts under the navy board had been lower than those for the army, he knew no objections to that board contracting for all the provisions wanted for both army and navy.
There should be only one board of supply; which in time of peace could be easily accomplished, and a great saving would be effected. From the multiplicity of business at the Treasury, it was very improbable that the same attention should be given to the commissariat purchasers, as was given to {hose of the navy; and he had no hesitation^! saying, that the whole victualling department might be placed under the navy board, with great relief to the Treasury and be productive of much benefit to the public. It was a question of considerable importance, and the principle he recommended had been
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adopted at foreign stations in drawing for money. One commissary drew for cash, and supplied the different departments; by which means competition in the public officers of the different services was avoided. The same result would follow the appointment of the victualling board to contract for provisions for both services.
There were two items of charge for prize money paid in the last year. One for the value of horses taken in Egypt in 1801, amounting to 33,880 l., and ordered to be distributed to the army and navy employed there, by his majesty's grant of Sept. 1804. The other, 31,532 l. for stores captured at Tarragona in 1813. He did not object to these payments—they were well deserved by our gallant-countrymen; but he complained that that prize money had been withheld for twenty years from men who had so hardly earned it. Did it not show gross neglect in some department? He wished to know with whom the neglect took place? It was cruel to withhold from a soldier and sailor their due, and leave only their heirs to receive what their labours entitled them to have enjoyed [Hear!]. It was in fact a gross robbery, as the greater number of those who carried their colours triumphant at these places were now no more, and their shares gone to the use of others who had no claim. He had always considered these kind of delays highly unjust, and he had reprobated the council which retained in that manner the prize money of Chandenagore of 1781, to within the last few years. If there' were any more prize money due to the country's defenders, it ought to be immediately paid.
With respect to foreign stations, for which very large sums were charged, as for example, 99,002 l. for Ceylon, 18,736 l. for Mauritius, &c, unless the separate expenses for each of them were brought before the House in detail, in the manner he had suggested for Heligoland, no correct opinion of their expense or check over it, could be formed—neither the parliament nor the ministers could know their amount. By an estimate he had made of the expenses of the colonies to this country, the enormous sum of three millions sterling, at the least, was incurred annually. Much, very much might be reduced from the items framing that large sum, if the accounts were rendered in an intelligible manner, which they were not at the present time. He would give an example of the manner in which the public money

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was expended in foreign stations, without its being brought at the time fairly before the House. It was shown by returns called for by him, and now on the table, that the expenses of the Ionian islands to Great Britain amounted to 130,000 l. a year on the average of the two last years accounts submitted. Although in no part of the public estimates or accounts could hon. memers find an entry of such a sum; and of the way in which public money was squandered, he had only to state that general sir Thomas Maitland received upwards of 10,458 l year of public money, exclusive of various other expenses connected with him; as, for example, in the accounts of army extraordinaries now before them, there is a charge of 982 l 6 s aid to captain A. Maitland, of his majesty's ship the Glasgow, for entertaining sir Thomas Maitland his relation, on board his ship at different times in 1819 and 1820—a sum which might, in ordinary times, have been sufficient as table money for the whole year. What sir Thomas Maitland had to do at Genoa, Naples, &c. whilst he had important duties to perform at Malta, in the Ionian islands, &c. he knew not. These charges and proceedings required explanation. He must say, from all the information he had received, that the situation of governor of Malta, and lord high commissioner at the Ionian Islands was quite incompatible. His conduct was loudly, and, he believed, justly complained against at both places.
At present, the commissaries on foreign stations draw for large sums, as at Gibraltar for 141,602 l.; Canada 203,937 l., &c. and that entry was all the House knew of the disposal of these sums? Why could they not send home an account, at the same time with their bills, or very soon after, of the different services to which the money had been applied, and it could then be posted under each head accordingly? Difficulties had been stated by the hon. secretary (Mr. Arbuthnot) when he (Mr. H.) formerly suggested this alteration. But, there was as much facility in the plan he recommended, as we knew to be daily practised by the excise. When a collector sends a bill for 1,000 l., for example, from Liverpool to London, he sends, at the same time, the different heads under which he has received that amount, as for soap, for candles, &c. and under these heads the different sums which make up that amount are posted in
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London. In the account of extraordinaries now before them, there was one charge of 56,700 l. for specie sent to Jamaica, the Leeward islands, Quebec and Halifax. He would ask, what use there could be of submitting such a charge to this House? As it stood, it could not afford any information; it was consequently useless, and such charges should not be entered in that manner. He hoped the charge for extraordinaries would, in future years, be very small indeed. Almost all the expenditure might be foreseen and provided for, and not brought in as an after-charge, when the House has no power of checking it. If, for example, an estimate had been submitted for the building the breakwater at Heligoland, for which the sum of 7,894 l. is charged as paid, it would, I think, have been discussed whether, for such a place, at such a time, so great an expense should have been incurred. In 1764, his majesty in council issued a very particular and proper order to all the governors of colonies, that they were not to commence any work or incur any expense (except through absolute necessity) until an estimate and plan of the intended works shall have been sent home, and received his majesty's sanction. That order was repeated in 1794, but the events of war had rendered it a dead letter ever since. We ought now to enforce it with rigour, and not allow, as we see by the navy and other estimates, large sums to be voted for works of which there are neither places nor estimates to be got; as, for example, at Trincomalee, Bermuda, &c. In time of peace, surely nothing of this kind should be going on, if we intend that either economy or retrenchment shall be attended to. In the same manner a variety of charges are made, that ought not to appear among the army extraordinaries. He had noticed the charge of 600 l. for the lieutenant-governor of Heligoland,—was this a civil or military charge?—Why should 6;598 l. be charged in this year for the training of the militia of Trinidad in 1816? He did not know that there were any militia in that island; but if there were, why did not that island pay its militia expenses in the same manner as the other West-India islands. He could only suppose, because the governor was the absolute disposer of the revenues of that island, and expends them in his own favorite improvements, which ought all to be secondary to the saving this country

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from expense at the present time. If that island had a legislative body and British laws, which have been unjustly withheld from them, no such charge as this would have come against this country. It is time, therefore, to look to that reform and improvement, as a means of economy" and retrenchment. It is a folly to think that the settlers in that fine island, or any other colony will ever defray a pound expense they can avoid, whilst they are kept out of the pale of British laws, which they so anxiously demand. In the ordinary estimates he had objected to the charge for the first time of 350 l. a year each to colonel Charles Turner, and colonel George Augustus C. Stapylton, as inspectors of military clothing; but he was not prepared to find in the extraordinaries a charge of 700 l. each as arrears for 2years from the 24th June, 1818. If these officers had done duty during these years, why were not these charges entered in the estimates of these years? It was a most improper proceeding. He (Mr. H.) had no hesitation in stating to the committee that these officers were not at all requisite, and that the offices are almost a sinecure. All the army clothing was provided by contract. It was surveyed by a committee of officers at the regiment on receipt; and if in any way objectionable, and not equal to the muster patterns, it was returned to the contractor. The employment of two inspectors in London was, therefore, useless, as it was the interest of the contractor to prepare the clothing, to prevent any being returned on his hands. If a survey was necessary in London, it ought to be done by a committee of officers on duty, summoned for the purpose, as is done in the field or garrisons, which would do the duty better, and save the expense of these officers. Why was the pay of a deputy barrack-master at Gibraltar charged in the extraordinaries? There was a charge of 1,467 l. for the riding establishment at Pimlico under colonel Peters, of arrears since 1816.—With large riding establishments to every regiment of cavalry, he could not conceive how this could be necessary. He knew it was considered by many in the army as a job to serve colonel Peters, and he feared it was: 1,450 l. had been voted in the estimates for this year, besides the sum charged in the extraordinaries. This establishment ought immediately to be broken up, and he knew it would give great satisfaction to the army in general.
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Why was 6,289 l. for staff officers, and establishments in Guernsey and Jersey charged in the extraordinaries, when these islands were within three days post, and the expense of every officer and establishment required should have been entered in the ordinary estimates? He had been informed that upwards of 5,000 l. of this sum could be saved, and that the establishments there were extravagant and unnecessary;—there had been only a garrison battalion in garrison in these three islands in the last year, with a major-general, secretary, &c. &c.. The major-general, he knew, had been absent for near five months at a time; so that the colonel commanding the regiment could command these islands, and save all the extra expense. The rule of government ought to be here enforced, and not one pound expended on estimate previously laid before parliament with the other estimates. He (Mr. H.) had compared the estimates of former years, but could not find any similar charge to this; so that they might be new, for any thing he knew.
There were agents in this country to the several new colonies, viz. the right hon. W. Huskisson for Ceylon, Thomas P. Courtenay for the Cape of Good Hope; both these were members of this House, and therefore it was in his opinion very objectionable to hold such offices; J. Brooks-bank, esq. for New South Wales, Richard Penn for the Mauritius, and major-general sir H. Bunbury for Malta and the Ionian islands. He knew not what the salaries of these agents were but he believed 600 l. each; all this he considered unnecessary, and should propose to reduce the present grant by that amount, as he was confident any business required by those islandsought to be done by the Treasury, and prevent an account from being opened with each of these agents, which, for many reasons, was improper. He should like to know what duties were performed by these agents that could not be done under the secretary to the Treasury, or any one of his clerks. If they were capable of conducting the commissariat, it was absurd to state that they could not prepare all these colonies required.—The sum of 1,100 l. was charged as pay and allowances to Thomas Atkinson for superintending the payments relative to the Russian Dutch loan at Amsterdam.—This transaction required examination on a future occasion; but he would ask, why this financial disbursement appeared

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in the army extraordinaries? No less than 2,846 l. was charged for the private secretaries of the governors of the West-India islands, Cape Breton, &c. The right hon. the paymaster general had stated, last year, when he (Mr. H) had objected to these charges appearing in the army extraordinaries, that it would be better to place them with the other civil establishments of those islands, and he hoped that would be done another year, if it should be possible to abolish these offices. Every governor had military staff with him; and if civil secretaries were requisite, the islands ought to provide them. He had understood that sir Charles Brisbane, the new governor of New South Wales, had applied, before his departure, to be allowed a private Secretary, but had been refused. He did not blame the government for the refusal, as it evinced a disposition on their art to keep down the expenses of that colony. But it was satisfactory to his mind that, if sir C. Brisbane could carry on the duty of governor of New South Wales without a civil secretary, that every one of the governors who were allowed them in this account might be saved. He should, therefore, propose to deduct the whole expense of 2,846 l. for the salaries of these secretaries from the present vote. He next observed a charge of 2,612 l. for articles for the household of Buonaparte at St. Helena: he had been informed that the commissioners deputed by the sovereigns of Austria, Russia, &c. to remain at St. Helena were paid by this country all their expenses; he could not believe that, and mentioned it only to enable the noble lord to contradict it if it was not true: he would not say more on this subject, as it was his intention to submit a motion to the House on the expenditure at St. Helena. He had before stated, that, by an account which had been carefully made up, and which he held in his hand, the detention of Napoleon had cost, in civil, military, and naval establishments, upwards of 415,000 l. a year, a sum altogether out of the question for this country to continue to expend, arid he would add that it was unnecessary: he had been in the island, and, if he might judge from its natural strength and situation, the total expense ought not to exceed a quarter of that large sum. These accounts had never been laid before parliament, and he was surprised at the delay in submitting those the House had ordered on his molion. If there were any difficulty infur.
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nishing the account for the last year, there ought not to be and delay in making up those for the years 1817, 1819, which ought to be produced immediately.—There were many other items of charge in these accounts that required particular notice, but he had stated sufficient, he thought, to satisfy the committee that the accounts were made up in a most irregular and vague manner, that they afforded little information, and, for the ensuing year, ought to be made out in a very different manner. Putting together the different sums which he conceived ought not to be sanctioned by the committee, for the reasons already given by him, he should propose to reduce the vote by the sum of 36,612 l.
Mr. Goulburndenied that this government paid the expenses of the foreign commissioners. With regard to the item charged on account of Buonaparte, the house of that individual had been complained of as being so utterly out of repair, as to admit the rain. As it was found that the old building was not worth repairing, it was decided that a new residence should be built. The sum charged in the item adverted to was for the additional furniture supplied on this occasion. With respect to the salaries of the private secretaries of civil governors, he agreed that it was absurd to charge them in the army extraordinaries, but it was a practice which had long prevailed, and was found convenient, because the secretaries were paid by the paymaster-general of the army. As to the refusal of a private secretary to the governor of New South Wales, he was inclined to believe that no such application as that stated by the hon. gentleman was made by sir C. Brisbane. He did, indeed, apply for a brigade-major, and the application was refused, because government saw no reason for adding another staff-officer to the establishment of New South Wales.
The Marquis of Londonderryobserved, that there was no ground whatever for supposing that the expenses of the foreign commissioners at St, Helena were not paid by their own governments. At this moment, he believed, two of them had been withdrawn.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, that the reason of the charge for the inspectors of army clothing appearing in the extraordinaries was, that it had been the intention of government to dispense with them,, and the charge had consequently been comitted

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in the estimates for two years. It was afterwards found, however, that their services were indispensable, and they were reinstated. With regard to the garrison at Heligoland, the hon. gentleman had stated that it consisted only of 50 men in time of war, and was increased to 100 since the peace. Now, in 1812, a year of war, the garrison consisted of 479 men; and in 1821 of only 67.
Mr. Bennetobjected to the amount of the army extraordinaries as exorbitant. He did not see why the debt to Mr. Commissary Mackenzie should be put among them. He thought the expenses of the colonies altogether too great, especially those of the Cape of Good Hope and New South Wales. He could not agree to vote the sum demanded for conveying convicts to the latter place, more particularly as the solicitor-general had said, in 1821, what he (Mr. B.) had been telling the House during the last five years, that it was not a place of punishment. Pie would propose a reduction of 100,000 l. on the sum total of the accounts now presented, if his hon. friend would consent to withdraw his amendment.
Mr. Humeconsented to withdraw his amendment, and the committee divided: for Mr. Bennet's amendment 32. Against it 84.

List of the Minority.

Bennet, H. G.

Johnson, col.

Boughey, sir J.

Lushington, Dr.

Brougham, H.

Martin, John

Bury, lord

Maberly, jun.

Cavendish, H.

Milbank, J.

Calvert, N.

Milton, lord

Concannon, L.

Moore, P.

Crompton, S.

Monck, J. B.

Chaloner, R.

Palmer, C. F.

Farrand, R.

Pryse, Pryse

Forbes, C.

Rice, S.

Gipps, G.

Robarts, A.W.

Griffith, J.

Robinson, sir G.

Harbord, E.

Smith, W.

Heron, sir R.

Webb, col.

Hobhouse, J. C.

TELLER.

Hume, J.

Davies, col.

Mr. Arbuthnotnext moved, "That 401,569 l. be granted to defray the expenses of the Commissariat department for 1821 l
Mr. Gippscomplained of the very general manner in which the sums were stated in the estimate.
Mr. Maberlysaid, he had long been of opinion, that there should be one great military depot in the kingdom, which
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ought to be the Ordnance, and to which the storekeeper-general's department ought to be transferred, which would save a considerable sum to the public. He had no doubt that if a strict economy was pursued, 20 or 30,000 l. a year might be saved in those departments, as they could save, on his plan, the expenses of the additional offices and all the rents. The hon. gentleman entered into a variety of details to prove the expediency of the proposed transfer, and of making the Ordnance the great depot, as well in this country as in the colonies.
Mr. Arbuthnotdefended the existing arrangements, and contended that considerable reductions had been effected.
Mr. Humeconsidered this vote one of great importance, both by its magnitude and from the peculiar nature of the department. The hon. member for Abingdon (Mr. Maberly) had stated the general extravagance of the storekeeper's department but he had not stated half its extent. It had been one of the most profuse and wasteful departments under the present profuse system. He had for successive years endeavoured to convince the House of the necessity of reducing or abolishing it; and, in justice to the hon. secretary (Mr. Arbuthnot), he must state that the necessity had been felt by him and acted upon, as the department of storekeeper-general had been, in the course of the last year, joined to that of the commissariat under the Treasury, and Mr. Trotter, the storekeeper-general, and several others of the establishment had been removed on pensions and half-pay. This department was for the purchase of military stores, for their keeping and issue as the services of war required; and, although during the war, the establishment under Mr. Trotter had increased to an uncalled-for extent, he did not include that period in the statements he had prepared and formerly stated of that department. From the peace up to March 1820, the total amount value of stores contracted for by the storekeeper was 312,834 l., or at 69,519 l. per annum on the average of the 4 years. There was little doubt that great part of that sum might have been saved if we had not had such a man at its head as Mr. Trotter, as the sale of the greater part of these stores at ⅛ of the prime cost proved them not to have been required by the public service, flip charges for the establishment and, contingencies in this department were so high

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as 131,161 l. in 1816; and in the most reduced scale for the year ending the 24th March 1820, it was 52,578 l.! a sum so enormous, when compared with the expenses before Mr. Trotter took charge of the department in 1808, that without the official returns it could not have been credited. On the average of 13 years of war prior to 1808, the expense of that department was 19,717 l. a year; whilst, since then, it had been so high as that stated for 1816. If the expense of the establishment since the peace was given, it would far exceed the whole value of the stores received, with ample allowance for what might be considered the expense of custody of the old stores. The charges had been indeed enormous. He entirely concurred in the observation, that the charge of these stores might be transferred to the Ordnance storekeepers abroad and at home; and that all the packing should be done by contract, as formerly, when it was so well and so economically done, as the report of military commissioners stated. The expense of keeping up the present store-houses was immense, and he hoped the he secretary would abolish the whole before the next year. He (Mr. H.) might give the storekeeper's department as an instance of the gross waste that takes place in the government manufactures, in comparison with what can be done by private individuals by open contract. In this case he was sure cent per cent at the least. With respect to the commissariat charge, including the charge of the storekeeper's department, the sum of 401,569 l. exceeded the charge in the years 1818 and 1819, which ought not, with the present reduced prices of every article, to be the case; when however we examined the particulars of this charge, an easy solution was found. All the establishments were larger in proportion; for example, in 1813, when the war was at its greatest extent, the number of commissaries were 300; in this year 231, exclusive of 39 in the storekeeper's department, at an expense of 61,057 l. for pay alone. In Canada' in 1813 there were 30; in this year 53 commissaries, although there were only 6 British regiments there. This might be taken as an example of the scale on which the other establishments in this department were placed. If his suggestions on the subject of the purchase of provisions under the Victualling Board were acted upon, great part of this establishment
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might be reduced. When the duties those officers had to perform were considered, he had good authority for stating, that a reduction of one-half might be made in the number and expense of these establishments, and he trusted that that would be done.—He had reason to believe, that there were not sufficient checks on the accounts of the commissaries, as many of them had accumulated large fortunes, which the fair emoluments of their office could not have afforded; and he recommended that department to the particular attention of the secretary to the Treasury. With respect to the pension list, he thought many of them objectionable, and that 7 or 10 years employment in a lucrative service ought not to entitle any man to a pension for life. The pension of 1,200 l. a 3'ear to Mr. Herries as retired commissary-in-chief he thought particularly extravagant. That he should receive 1,500 l. as auditor of the civil list, and also the pension of 1,200 l. after only a few years service, was a shameful waste of public money. The 1,100 l. to Mr. Trotter, late storekeeper-general, he thought much worse, as he had, during the whole of his charge, expended more money on the establishment than any other officer, and was not entitled to any such pension from government. He should certainly vote for reducing that pension and the superfluous establishments, unless assurances were given that a great reduction should be made before next year.
Mr. Arbuthnotobserved, that 800 clerks had been dismissed, and that the number now employed were indispensable for the purpose of carding on the business of the Commissariat office. The experiment of a greater reduction had been made in a former year, but was of necessity abandoned. He defended the pensions which had been granted to Mr. Herries and Mr. Trotter, as due to them, and more especially to the former, in acknowledgment of their great public services.
Mr. Bennetconsidered that the public services of Mr. Herries had been abundaatly paid, without the pension in question.
Colonel Daviescompared the present estimates with those of 1819, and commented on their excess,. With a view to the reduction of that excess, he moved, as an amendment, to reduce the proposed vote by 4,238 l.
The committee divided: for the Amendment, 40; Against it, 89.

List of the Minority.

Anson, hon. G.

Maberly, J. jun.

Becher, W. W.

Martin, J.

Bennet, hon. H. G.,

Milton, lord

Bernal, R.

Milbank, J.

Bernard, lord

Moore, P.

Bright, H.

Monck, J. B.

Bury, lord

Newman, R. W.

Calvert N.

O'Callaghan, col.

Carter, J.

Palmer, F.

Chaloner, R.

Pryse, P.

Chetwynd, G.

Ricardo, D.

Concannon, L.

Rice, S.

Denman, T,

Robarts, A.

Guise, sir W.

Smith, J.

Harbord, hon. H.

Stanley, lord

Heron, sir R,

Tennyson, C.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Tynte, K. K.

Hume, J.

Webb, col.

Johnson, col.

Whitbread, S.

Langston, J.

TELLER.

Lusbington, Dr.

Davies, col.

Maberly, J.