Sitting of 4 May 1821

DUTY ON EAST INDIA SUGARS.
Lord Stanley presented a Petition from the Chamber of Commerce of Manchester, against any additional Duty on East India Sugar, for the protection of the West India grower.
The Chancellor of the Exchequervindicated the policy of laying a higher duty on East India sugars than on those made in the West Indies.
Mr. Ricardoobjected altogether to the principle of this tax, which recognised the policy of giving the produce of one country a preference to that of another.
Mr. Bennetwished to know why the English consumer should be obliged to pay more for sugar from the West than from the East Indies. For his part he was not inclined to give such a preference to any class of men, much less to people who had vested their capital in dealing in human flesh. The interest of the consumer, as well as that of the trader, was a point which the House ought never to lose sight of. He would stand up for the people of this country, against the West India trader or grower, or whatever he

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might be called, as well as against the English land-owner, when he required an unjust protection, or the ship-owner, as in the case of the timber duties, or any other class of men who wished to make the legislature the instrument of increasing their profits at the expense of the interests of the people at large.
Mr. Gordonsaid, that notwithstanding his hon. friend's lecture on political economy, it was impossible for the West Indian trade to go on, unless by the aid of such a protecting duty. He thought his hon. friend might have spared himself the use of such expressions as he had applied to the West Indian colonists, when he called them dealers in human flesh j such expressions being both uncalled for, and unjust.
Mr. Barhamsaid, the West India interest desired no advantage; but as burthens twenty times greater than had been imposed on any other body had fallen on them, they were justified in calling for some relief to enable them to exist. His hon. friend had thought it right to speak of all persons who had by any circumstance become possessed of property in the West Indies, as having vested their capital in human flesh. He thought his hon. friend, when he reflected on what he had said, would feel how unfair his conduct had been, and was confident that his own reproaches would be more severe than any which he could bring himself to pronounce.
Mr. Bernal, with all the respect which he had for the humanity of his hon. friend, wondered that he should allow the heat of the moment to delude his understanding. If his hon. friend inquired into the system of slave management, he would find it to be one of humanity. He must know that the language he had used would go abroad, and operate to the prejudice of the West India traders; and therefore he trusted he would retract the asperity of the expression which he had applied to them.
Mr. Bennetsaid, he was called on to give up his opinion, and to state, that, generally speaking, the slave-trade was one of humanity. He believed it to be no such thing. As an individual capable of forming an opinion upon the principle itself, he could see nothing so humane in it as to lessen the feeling which he had expressed towards it. He certainly did not mean to apply the expressions to any one about him. No doubt there were
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instances where the cruelty of the principle was mitigated, in the practice but upon its general merits,, he must always; maintain the slave trade to be founded on a principle that could not be reconciled to humanity.
Mr. Gordonwished his hon. friend would abstain from speaking on a subject which he did not understand.
Sir R. Wilsonhad no hesitation in declaring his belief, that the system, of slavery in the West Indies was of the most cruel and atrocious nature.
Dr. Lushingtonobserved, that where slavery was tolerated it was impossible that the principles of humanity should not be violated. Against individuals connected with the West India trade his hon. friend had thrown out no charge, but against the slave system, which must ever, be productive of human misery.
Ordered to lie on the table.

STATE OF THE NATION, AS CONNECTED WITH THE EVENTS NOW PASSING IN EUROPE.
On the order of the day, for going into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. Hutchinsonrose to submit the motion of which he had given notice. He began by observing, that it was not his intention on the present occasion to interfere in any degree with the subject on which a noble lord (W. Bentinck) had given a notice. If he thought that his motion would anticipate, or at all interfere with that of the noble lord, he certainly would not press it. In entering upon so vast and important a subject, he was conscious of his own inadequacy to the task. He would, however, open his view of it to the House, confident that it would be ably enlarged upon by those honourable members who should support him. Looking at the present situation of Europe, he could not but feel considerable apprehension, as well at the nature of the events which were passing, as at the conduct of the British government with respect to them. When the situation of Italy was brought before parliament in February last his majesty's ministers declared that it was not their intention to interfere with respect to Naples. The document which was at that time laid before, and made the subject of discussion in, the other House, declared that the intentions of our government were those of strict neutrality; but nevertheless, they were not backward in showing what, their feelings were, and how far those feelings were against the cause of the

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Neapolitans. It was then contended, that the object of the Austrians was not aggrandisement, but the security of their Italian possessions. It was then thought by many, that the Neapolitans and the other Italian states would have had sufficient force to repel the aggressions of Austria; and glad he would have been if the whole of the force sent by the tyrannical government of Austria had been destroyed. But what had happened? Naples was now completely under the Austrian yoke; the kingdom of Sardinia was likewise in her possession; but notwithstanding this, we found that an immense body of Russians were rushing from their woods to give assistance to Austria, which he sincerely regretted that Austria did not need. Thus we saw that Austria was in full possession of Italy, the Russians advancing in great force to support that power, while she was preparing to govern her newly acquired posssessions (for such he would consider them) with a most bloody code. Under these circumstances, it behoved his majesty's ministers to do something to tranquillize parliament and the country on the subject. Looking at the disturbed state of Greece; seeing that in Spain some of the most respectable individuals had been deported, and that a civil war existed in several provinces, in which, indeed, martial law had been proclaimed, and adverting to the great changes of every description which bad taken place since February, he did not see how the noble marquis could justify himself in sitting still and allowing tyranny to be triumphantly established in Europe, without the slightest interference on our part to prevent it. In this state of things, anxiously as he and his friends had laboured to little purpose for some weeks past to reduce the army estimates to what they ought to be for a peace establishment, and though he thought war one of the greatest calamities that could befall this country, yet he thought it right to say there might be that which would be more fatal even than war to this country and the liberties of mankind. He did not see that the noble marquis and his colleagues could answer, not for the peace of Europe, but for the peace of this country, if they suffered Russia and Austria to advance further, as they said, to seek security, but as it would ultimately be seen to carry into effect new schemes of aggrandisement. He thought ministers could not answer for the security of Europe, or the mari-
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time greatness of this Country, if they now suffered the allies to occupy a military position, from which all the force of the empire would be insufficient to dislodge them at a future period. There was no danger that justified their present movements; but tyrants and despots wished all subjects to be slaves, and would put down liberty on any pretence whatever. In Italy they would put it down on account of the Carbonari—in Spain they would put it down on account of its being desired by what they could not respect, the population of a country—and they would find some excuse for putting it down in England; if they could approach our shores in safety. It was not new to call on England to come forward when other powers had taken strong and threatening positions. In such cases it had long been the policy of this country to interfere, and therefore it would not satisfy him to be told, that whatever Russia and Austria might intend with respect to Spain, this country had nothing to do with it. Heretofore, England had gone to war to establish a balance of power in Europe. For that we were at war during nearly the whole of the reign of Louis 14th, and for that we had lately been at war for nearly a quarter of a century. In 1790, in the case of Nootka Sound, it was thought right to interfere, and the preparations then made on the part of Spain were thought sufficient to justify a message from the Crown to that House on the subject. In 1790 and 1791, we armed and continued armed for fourteen months, not because we apprehended any direct attack from the Empress Catherine, but because it was not considered safe for the British interests, that Russia should be suffered to take possession of Oczakow. On that occasion lord Grenville, then the secretary of state for foreign affairs, ridiculed the idea that England was not interested in what was passing on the continent. God forbid that he should think it absolutely necessary that the country should be again plunged into the horrors of war! He hoped that the noble marquis, however, would make some declaration calculated to meet the occasion; and he should consider a proposition for a vote of credit an advisable measure. The noble marquis would, in his opinion, not do his duty, unless he told Spain, that we were ready to make an alliance, offensive and defensive, with that country, the moment that a single soldier

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was sent into it by any power in Europe. Further, the noble marquis ought to let it be known in France, that the moment the French government allowed an Austrian soldier to cross the French territory to Spain, England would consider it a declaration of war. He would also recommend, if Russia persisted in her system of dictation, that a fleet should be sent up the Baltic, for the purpose of blockading every Russian port. Such a step by destroying her commerce, would soon compel her to seek an unqualified peace. If the noble marquis viewed the state of Europe with the apprehension which it was certainly calculated to excite, he ought to form a strict alliance with Spain and France. Let the king of France go on cultivating the affections of his people, let the British government show themselves disposed to assert the rights of freedom against its assailants, and England with her navy, and France with her heroes, might defy all the tyrants of the world. But if the noble marquis postponed measures of this nature, they would come-too late. He was apprehensive, however, that Russia and Austria, acting as they were on a great scale to ruin the liberties of the world would plead in their justification the conduct of the noble marquis at Vienna, at Paris, and at Aix-la-Chapelle. He was afraid they would retort upon the noble marquis, the additions to the territory of Hanover; the annexation of Belgium to Holland; the plunder of Saxony in order to aggrandize Prussia; the destruction of Wurtemburgh to incorporate it with Bavaria; the spoliation of Italy to enrich Austria; the breach of faith with Genoa to annex it to Sardinia; and all the other measures of a similar character, to which the noble marquis was a willing party. The governments of Europe would have found it impossible to put down the tyranny of Buonaparte, were it not for the co-operation of that people whose liberties were now threatened, if not destroyed. Those people were promised a constitution, but that promise was kept by a violation, not only of their liberties, but of the liberties of Europe. But, if this country charged Austria and Russia with such conduct, what would be their answer? Might they not fairly turn round upon us, and retaliate by saying, that we also had acted upon a system of spoliation and oppression? That we had done so particularly at Paris, though in a petty
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way? The noble marquis had placed himself in a situation of great peril and danger; but having done so, it was his duty to look the danger boldly in the face, and if he had been acting upon false principles before, he ought to retrace his steps, and use his best efforts to redeem the errors into which he had fallen. He would tell the noble marquis, that the principles acted upon by this government since the treaty of Paris and the battle of Waterloo, were subversive of the liberties of Europe. The noble marquis and his friends had stated over and over again, that the efforts made by this country had secured the happiness and tranquillity of Europe. He would ask the noble marquis where he was to look for this tranquillity of Europe. Sure he was, that it was neither to be found in this country, nor on the continent. Let the noble marquis speak out—let him tell the House what he really thought of the existing state of affairs both at home and abroad, and, he was sure that the House would be led to a different conclusion. He feared much, that unless we changed our policy—unless we acted upon principles totally different from those upon which our government had acted for some time past—we should be at length reduced to the humiliating situation of being obliged to beg our existence as a nation, as certain powers on the continent were now obliged to beg theirs. He believed that his majesty's ministers had no intention of forwarding the designs of the tyrants of the continent—they could not possess British feelings if they had; but what he feared was, that they, and the noble marquis in particular, were blind to what those tyrants wished to do, from the long intercourse which they had had together. What he wished was, that this country should take a commanding attitude, not only for the preservation of her own interests, but of the liberties and peace of Europe. The hon. member then alluded to the exertions made by the different states of the continent, against the tyrannical power of France, and contended that the promises then made to them of free constitutions, had been most shamefully violated. He wished to set himself right, as a member of that House, with the country and with Europe, and therefore it was that he had occupied the time of the House upon the present occasion. The hon. member concluded by moving, as an amendment "That this House will resolve itself into

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a Committee of the whole House to consider of the State of the Nation, as connected with the Events now passing in Europe."
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, he could not help objecting to the mode of proceeding adopted by the hon. member. Nothing, however, which had been urged in the course of the hon. member's speech rendered it necessary for him to enter at that moment into the details of the subject. When he came down to the House, he was under the impression that the House was to enter into a discussion on the navy estimates, and when such a question stood upon the paper, he thought it improper that they should be diverted from it, and dragged into an inquiry into the state of the nation with reference to foreign politics. When he heard of the hon. member's motion, he thought he intended to show that the existing state of Europe would enable us to dispense with a considerable portion of the navy estimates. But instead of hearing it recommended that a great portion of those estimates should be cut down, he could not help feeling some surprise at finding an accusation made against him which would form the ground of impeachment, for not having called upon the House, by a message from the Crown, to grant such additional sums as would place the country in a situation to resist the dangers with which she was threatened. He must, however, with all respect, decline the alternative which the hon. member had given him. The hon. member had also given him much advice, and no doubt with the best possible intention; he recommended entering into treaties offensive and defensive with France and Spain, blockading the greater part of the Northern ports, and many other measures of a very salutary nature no doubt, but which were, he must say, wholly thrown away upon him. He felt it necessary also to decline all political advice, when it came from an hon. member who did not appear to see the political state of Europe with sufficient clearness to enable him to make up his own mind upon it. He felt that ministers would act with great rashness if they followed any advice so tendered to them. He never knew it to be the parliamentary course to goad ministers into any act, or any explanation, by such an irregular proceeding as that adopted by the hon. member. If the hon. member would allow him to suggest to him and to
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his friends, a hint which he had before thrown out, he would recommend to them, for their own sakes, not to be so very precipitate in giving their advice and opinions upon such subjects. When the affairs of Naples were last discussed in that House, he heard several statements made upon which he declined giving any opinion. He forbore at the moment from stating what line of conduct ought to be pursued by this or any other country. It now appeared, that many of the statements then made were fallacious. Whatever might be the comments and opinions now pronounced, he would recommend to the hon. mover and his friends to change their course—to act a little more upon realities rather than indulge in speculating upon possibilities, or rather upon impossibilities. By this means much of the time and attention of the House would be spared. He did not presume to say what would be the result of present events on the continent, but he would caution the hon. member against assuming, that because the Russian army had been put in motion in consequence of certain events in Piedmont, they were therefore to proceed to other countries, and for other purposes. He would not take upon himself the task of prophesying what would happen, as it was at best a useless office; but he would say, that there being at present no evidence of such a fact as the advance of the Russian army, it was wrong to assume, and then argue upon it. He would state to the House how it was that the Russian army was put in motion. It was known that an insurrection similar to that of Naples, which had been much panegyrised by several members opposite, had taken place in Piedmont. It was said that both insurrections had taken place in the cause of liberty. He never could dignify by the word liberty the attempts of a military body to resist their lawful sovereign, and tear down and destroy the most sacred institutions of the country, without knowing or caring by what those institutions were to be replaced. Of this description was the insurrection in Piedmont. The king of Sardinia resigned in favour of his brother, and his nephew was placed at the head of the provisional government. In a few days he also was forced to retire from his regency. The first act of the new government was a declaration of war against Austria. Without entering into the motives of this proceeding, it, was sufficient

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to state that this declaration of war originated with those favoured and panegyrized children of liberty. What then was to be done? The king of Sardinia under such circumstances, felt himself compelled to apply to Austria for assistance. Austria applied to Russia for support against this insurrectionary government; in consequence of which, a large body of Russian troops were put in motion and actually entered the Austrian frontier. But the circumstances which induced this movement having changed, did it necessarily follow that those troops were to continue their route? The consequence of this movement was, that the insurrectionary government of Piedmont ceased to exist; but it was suppressed more immediately by the troops of the king of Sardinia, as only a very small part of the Austrian troops had been brought up. If the emperors of Austria and Russia entertained the intentions imputed to them by the horn member of wishing to overturn the liberties of Europe, would they have acted in the manner they had done? It was a fact, that general Bubna, who commanded the Austrian forces had orders to enter Piedmont as little as possible, and above all, to avoid approaching the capital. Now, this savoured as little as possible of a wish to overrun the whole of Europe. He was sure the House would forgive him for protesting against the introduction of a motion which prevented them from entering on one of the most important discussions which could come before them. He was as anxious as any member that every possible economy should be practised, and with that view he was desirous that the public estimates should undergo the closest investigation in all their branches. He would repeat a declaration which he had made on a former occasion, that if those powers were to manifest any inclination or intention of aggrandising themselves at the expense of the peace of Europe. He would be the first to propose the interference of this country. We ought to look with jealousy to foreign powers, but we ought now to recollect that we were in a state of peace, and that it was our interest not to disturb that peace by unnecessarily meddling with continental affairs. He was not aware of any circumstance which could render such interference necessary at present. He would not say that circumstances might not arise which would make our interference necessary; and should such a
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period arrive, we should be better able to meet it by preserving as long as possible our present state of internal and external tranquillity. The motion of the hon. member was founded upon an imperfect view of the political state of Europe, and therefore he felt himself bound to oppose it.
Sir R. Wilsonapprehended that ministers were so entangled with confederate tyrants, that it was impossible for them to follow the true policy of this country, even if it were their inclination. He must however believe, that they regarded with pleasure the overthrow of the Neapolitan constitution and the threatening of the constitution of Spain. If they did not, they would have taken measures to oppose the conduct of the enemies of European liberty. He thought that the people of Europe had still enough of spirit and of strength, to vindicate the past and to secure the future. There was no cause for despair: if despair existed, it was that despair which animates, and which persuades men that they can have no security but in action and in arms. The government of Piedmont, which the noble lord had called insurrectionary, but which he would call provisional, had most truly said that the cause of constitutional liberty had been morally successful. The possession of Naples was by no means the triumph of Austria. Austria had endeavoured to suppress a volcano, and every attempt to extinguish its fires increased, instead of diminishing them. Austria looked for aid to scaffolds and military executions; but such aids only offered additional impediments to her successful occupation. Austria then, had no cause of triumph, and the people of Europe no cause to despair.
Colonel Davieswas happy to hear that the Russian army had stopped its march. He wished to be informed by the noble marquis whether he had had any communication with the Russian government upon the subject. If the object of the Russian army was only to take possession of Italy, from the conduct of the dastardly wretches who had disgraced the name of liberty, he cared not what became of them.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that the Russians had been put in motion at the request of the king of Sardinia, and the emperor of Austria, and therefore it was clear that their march had no reference to Spain. Further than this he had

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not gone, except in cautioning gentlemen against assuming as fact that of which there was no proof.
The amendment was negatived.

NAVY ESTIMATES.
The order of the day for going into a Committee of Supply was then read. On the motion, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair,"
Mr. Humesaid, that he had a few observations to make before the Speaker left the chair. No man in that House or in the country, felt more than he did the great importance of the navy—no man was more anxious than he was to preserve it unimpaired: to its naval power this country was indebted for its pre-eminent station, compared with the other nations of Europe; friendly, however, as he was to our naval establishment, he yet thought that it could be kept up in a state as perfect as it stood at present, and at much less expense. He did not at that moment mean to go into questions of detail, but would merely take the total expenditures of various departments and compare those expenditures with those of former periods. Here the hon. member went into several items of expenditure connected with various branches of the naval departments. He then went on to say, that considering the great reductions that had recently taken place in almost every article, the House ought to look narrowly at the different heads of expenditure, and endeavour to approximate the expenditure to the expenditure of 1792. He regretted to have heard a declaration made that night in another place by a noble earl (Liverpool), that no further reduction could be made in the present expenditure of the country. He hoped that before that day twelvemonths considerable reductions would be made. The hon. gentleman concluded by moving as an amendment,
"That it appears, by the returns before this House, that the expense of the Admiralty office, of the Navy Pay office, and of the Navy Office establishments, in the year 1792, when there were 144 ships in commission 257 ships in ordinary, and 16,000 seamen and marines in the service, was 58,719 l.; that, in the year 1813, when there were 666 ships in commission, 355 in ordinary, and 140,000 seamen and marines in the service, the expense of those offices was 189,227 l.; and in the estimates for 1821, when there
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are only 119 ships in commission, 582 in ordinary, and 22,000 seamen and marines in the service, the expense is 185,050 l. for those offices, being only a reduction of 4,177 l. in the sixth year of peace from the year 1813 of extended warfare, and the sum of 126,331 l. more in 1821 than in 1792:—That the expense of the dock yard establishments in England in the year 1792 was 25,352 l.; in the year 1813 it amounted to 212,143 l.; and in the estimate for the year 1821, the amount is 210,745 l., being only 1,398 l. less than in 1813, and of 185,393 l. more in 1821 than in 1792; that the expense of the foreign dock yards in the year 1813 was 52,369 l., and by the estimate for 1821 the charge is 53,951 l. being 1,591 l. more in the year 1821, a year of peace, than in 1813, a year of war:—That the sum voted for the ordinary estimate of the navy in the year 1792 was, 672,483 l.; the sum voted for the ordinary estimate of the year 1813, was 1,757,928 l.; and that the ordinary estimate for 1821 amounts to 2,484,600 l., being, 1,812,118 l. more than the estimate of the year 1792, and 726,672 l. more than that of the year 1813:—That the total supply voted for the service of the navy in the year 1792 was 1,985,482 l. with 16,000 seamen and marines in the service; that in the year 1819 the supply voted for the navy was 5,985,415 l. with 19,000 seamen and marines in the service; and the estimate for the total supply of 1821 is 6,382,786 l., with 22,000 seamen and marines in the service, being a charge of 4,397,304 l. more in 1821 than in 1792, and of 397,371 l. more in 1821 than in 1819."
Sir G. Warrendersaid, he would not follow the hon. gentleman through the details into which he had entered, though in the committee he should be happy to afford him an opportunity of correcting some of the errors into which he had fallen. It was very material to recollect, that in 1792 the actual expenditure and the sum voted were very different; and it was not until some years afterwards that the estimates represented the real expense. In referring to the Admiralty office, the hon. gentleman had omitted to notice the change in the system of fees by which the establishment was formerly maintained. The management and regulation of the dock-yards had undergone a complete change since 1792; a comparison therefore was altogether unfair. To the ordinary establishment of the navy, the

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widows pensions made a heavy addition. The causes of the increase in the charge for building and repairing ships would be explained hereafter, when it would be shown that the public money had not been needlessly expended.
Mr. Humesaid, he would not press his amendment to a division.
The House having resolved itself into a committee,
Sir George Warrenderrose to bring forward the Navy Estimates. He observed, that it was impossible for parliament to judge of the amount of emoluments received by dock-yard officers, in the year 1792, from any documents submitted to its notice. At that time a dock-yard officer, with a salary of only 100 l. a year, might receive emoluments to the amount of 1,000 a year; whereas at present all his emoluments were known to, and limited by, parliament. Formerly, so far from being a check to abuse in the yard to which he was attached, he was actually busied in promoting it: at present a system had been introduced, which made it his interest to look carefully after the interest of the public. The plan of task and check work had certainly introduced new officers into his majesty's yards; but the benefits derived therefrom, had more than compensated the expense they had occasioned. On the return of peace it had been the first object of government to place such of our ships as had been for many years at sea, in an efficient state of ordinary; and that object had been so far accomplished that orders had already been issued from the board of Admiralty for the discontinuance of one-fifth of the men employed in the dockyards. Besides this reduction, inquiries were now making for the purpose of discovering what further reductions could be effected. He believed he might promise the House that a very considerable reduction would be made with respect to the commissioners of dock-yards, and also to the civil officers employed in them, in the course of the ensuing year; and he did not know whether it might not be found expedient to reduce one of the dock-yards altogether within that period. The hon. baronet then proceeded to detail the different items in the estimates. He stated, that the increase of 11,000 l. in the salaries and contingencies of the Admiralty-office was occasioned partly by the reward given by the board of Longitude to the crews of the Hecla and
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Griper, and partly by circumstances which he would at a future period shortly enumerate. The disbursements of the assistant to the counsel of the navy in lawsuits, &c. was 11,000 l. this year: last year they had only been 8,000 l. There was also an increase in the contingencies relative to the service wherein the hydro-grapher was employed; but this would not be surprising to any member who recollected that the maritime surveys were more conveniently taken in a time of peace than in a time of war. He should also have to ask for a grant of 32,000 l. to Greenwich hospital, as 8,000 l. to the naval asylum. Last year he had asked 14,000 l. for that purpose; but as it was now intended to unite that establishment with the school at Greenwich hospital, several expensive offices would be reduced, and the sum which he had mentioned would be sufficiently large for the present year. He should now move, "That the sum of 2,484,599 l. 11 s. 5d. be granted for the ordinary expenses of the Navy for the year 1821."
Mr. Bernalobjected to granting so large a sum of money in a single grant, and trusted that the hon. baronet would not persist in pressing it in that form.
Sir G. Warrendersaid, that it was the invariable practice to vote the estimates in the manner which he had proposed. He had no wish to create any obstacles to the investigation of these estimates; indeed, he was as desirous as the hon. gentlemen opposite could be to have them thoroughly sifted. He had therefore, from a presentiment that an objection would be taken against the old method of passing the estimates, prepared the votes in such a manner as would meet the object of the hon. gentlemen. He would therefore withdraw his motion, and move, "That 70,596 l. 5s. 1d. be granted for defraying the salaries and contingent expenses of the Admiralty-office, for the year 1821."
Mr. Bernalobjected to this grant. If reduction was necessary in any branch of the public service, it certainly was in the Admiralty board. No sufficient reason could be given for the existence of six lords with salaries of 1,000 l. a year each: He thought that two of them might be reduced without any injury to the public business. He must also object to the further continuance of the office of vice-admiral of Scotland, which different finance committees had declared to be totally un-

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necessary. The salary of that office was 1,000 l. a year. There was another, which appeared to him to be equally objectionable; he meant that of paymaster of royal marines. He thought it might be abolished; but if it were deemed advisable to continue it, the salary might unquestionably be diminished to 500 l. a year. He should therefore move, that a reduction of 3,500 l. be made in the grant now proposed.
Sir George Cockburnedefended the original grant. With regard to the office of vice-admiral of Scotland, that office was enjoyed by a patent, and therefore could not be touched without an act of extreme injustice. As to the two lords of the Admiralty, whom it had been proposed to reduce, he was convinced that the public business of the board of Admiralty could not be efficiently transacted without them. The duties of that board were both civil and military, but belonged more to the former than they did to the latter description. The board had in consequence been divided into two distinct boards; and, strange as it might appear to the House, the number of clerks employed under the civil board, to say nothing of the law clerks, who were also numerous, greatly exceeded the number of clerks employed under the military board. But the cause which he had mentioned was not the only one; for the board of Admiralty containing a board within itself, it was evident that the duty of the commissioners would frequently render it necessary for them to go to the outports. Business would also be occurring in town at the same time, of such a nature as to render it necessary for some of them to remain there to attend it. The expediency, therefore, of having a distinct board for the transaction of the town business and the outport business could not be disputed. Gentlemen would say, that four lords of the Admiralty might constitute these two distinct boards as well as six; to which he would reply that no doubt they might. But then he maintained that one-half of the whole board ought to be naval officers; and if there were only two of them, they might differ in opinion, and thus bring the public business to a stand-still. This evil was completely obviated by having six lords of the Admiralty, of which three were naval and three civil lords. He might be told, that the evil which he contemplated would be equally well avoided by having only two
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lords of the Admiralty, one a naval the other a civil lord; and if the gentlemen, opposite could find any individual who could, without injury to his health, attend at his office from nine o'clock in the morning till 4 in the afternoon, and then be in his place in that House, from 4 in the afternoon, until 2 in the morning, to answer such questions as might be put to him, he, for one, had no objection to let them instal him in the office. He was of opinion, however, that no such individual could be found; and until such individual could be found, he would maintain that six lords of the Admiralty were not too many for the office. The business which they had to perform was excessive, and rendered it as necessary for them to be sometimes absent from town in search of recreation, as it was for other gentlemen. It was therefore right for them to provide relief for each other, which had accordingly been done from the earliest period of our naval history; for when we had a lord high admiral, he was always provided with his six assistants. After maintaining the necessity of never having more than three naval lords at the board, lest the same inconvenience should arise from it, as he had before shown would arise from only having two, he proceeded to show the necessity of having three well-read civilians at it; not more for the purpose of overlooking the various contracts and expenses of the offices under them, than that of explaining any difficulties which might arise out of misconstructions put upon Puffendorff, Vattel, or any other writer upon the law of nations.
Sir Joseph Yorkesaid, that nothing would have induced him to have risen but the extraordinary language which he had just heard from his gallant friend. Considering, however, that the country was reduced to a state of extreme poverty, and that the great ships the Britannia, the Caledonia and the Hibernia, if they were not completely water-logged, had at least six feet water in their holds, it became the duty of the captain, the officers, and the crew, and he meant by that metaphor the king, the ministers, and the representatives of the people, to look, one and all, to the safety of each ship, and to do their best to prevent them from sinking. He had often heard it said, that retrenchment was the only means of salvation which remained to this great and independent nation. He did not mean to state that it was his opinion that such was

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the case; but he must say, that he had never heard a direct answer given to the assertion by his right hon. friend below him, the gentleman with the white head (the chancellor of the exchequer). It was impossible to continue silent when he heard a declaration made, that the business of the Admiralty could not be transacted with less than six lords. "But then," said his gallant friend, "three of the civil lords are engaged in making all the contracts relative to the navy." If such were the case, of which, till that moment, he was unaware, then his gallant friend, the comptroller of the navy, ought to be discharged as a supernumerary, from the office which he filled with no less credit to himself than benefit to the public. But then there were also to be three naval lords, because two of a trade seldom agreed, and there might be a difference between them if there were only two. From all that he had seen of these lords, two of them only were allowed to speak, the other always acted the part of "dummy." The civil gentlemen seemed also to be very fond of saying as few words as possible. The hon. baronet below him (sir G. Warrender) got up a speech indeed every year, and let it off with all due flippancy; but, besides that, he never said a word about then aval service, unless it might be in St. James's street, or any other place where he took the air. As to the other remark, that it was necessary to have lawyers at the board, there never was such an apple of discord thrown into any body of men as lawyers; but surely, there was law enough at the board without the lords in question. The first lord was a lawyer. His hon. friend the secretary (Mr. Croker) was a bred lawyer, and talked on matters of law with sufficient flippancy. So there was a lawyer at the head and a lawyer at the bottom of the table. From the respect he bore to the persons who held the office, he was sorry to propose to reduce their salaries, but he was sure that the efficiency of the Admiralty would not be at all diminished, if the number of the lords were five instead of seven. On his faith, his honour, and his conscience, he believed it. Until the year 1806, the salary of the first lord was only 3,000 l. when it was increased to 5,000 l. at the time when earl Grey held the office. It did appear to him a little extraordinary, that the gentlemen over the way did not advert to this subject. Not that it was
526
possible that a nobleman or a commoner could maintain the situation of a cabinet minister on 3,000 l. a year, without great loss; but if the first lord bad any other office, he certainly should not take in all more than 5,000 l. a year. The marquis Camden had the thanks of the House for giving up part of his salary as teller of the exchequer; but a right hon. relative of his own (Mr. C. Yorke) had given up the additional 2,000 l. a year while he held the place of first lord, and not a word was said about it. He meant no personal offence to any gentleman, but he was of opinion that the business of the Admiralty could be as well transacted by five as by seven lords.
Mr. Robinsonsaid it was quite new to him that the civil lords were, as it was termed, dumbies. He had the honour of a seat at the admiralty Board, I which he had accepted at the urgent request of his right hon. relative then at the head of the board, and he had found himself fully employed. Far from being sinecures, he in his conscience believed the places in question to be most efficient and useful offices.
Sir J. Yorkeadmitted, that the office had been far from a useless one to his right hon. relative; for after his right hon. relative had been cradled in that nursery of sucking statesmen, as it had been called, he had got from thence, by a hop, step and jump, until he found himself seated on the treasury bench as a cabinet minister.
Mr. R. Wardhad had the honour of sitting at the board of admiralty for four years, and supported the assertion of the right hon. the treasurer of the navy.
Mr. Creeveycomplained of the awkward dilemma to which he and the honourable friends who acted with him were reduced by the gentlemen on the other side. The gallant admiral, who had been eight years a member of the board of admiralty, said that two of the lords were utterly useless. The right hon. gentleman opposite said, upon his honour, that those two additional lords were most useful. After such a declaration so solemnly given, it was almost impossible for him to say that they were not useful. He should however draw his conclusions from contrasting the opinions of the two honourable gentlemen; and certainly, when he considered that at one time the lay lords were described as shipwrights, and at another time as students of Vattal, he was almost inclined to think them totally useless.

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His learned friend, in objection to this grant, had not exactly put his objection in the most proper and constitutional shape. For what were they in reality doing? Voting a supply for five members of parliament. He should not be surprised if he saw these gentlemen taking part in the division upon their own salaries, and supported by other members, to whom they had given the like assistance when their salaries were under discussion. He could tell to a farthing what would be saved by the discussion on these estimates. It would be just as much, and no more, than had been saved by the discussion on the army estimates; and that was nothing. Until the House came to some decisive arrangement on this subject, there would be no end to the profligate expenditure of government. He did not wish to deprive efficient persons at the heads of departments of seats in that House. He should be sorry to see the secretary at war deprived of his seat in that House; but he did think that some measure should be adopted, by which the minor servants of government would not be admitted into parliament to determine on the extent of their own emoluments. His hon. friend, the member for Shrewsbury, had given notice of a motion on that subject: it appeared to him, however, not to go far enough.
Sir Isaac Coffinput it to his gallant friend, whether at any time during the eight years he had been a lord of the admiralty, he had made use of the observations which he had that night uttered regarding the dummies who had seats at the board.
Sir J. Yorkereplied, that his gallant friend must be well aware that the moment he had said a word of the kind at that board, his stern must have been turned to the admiralty
Mr. Humesaid, it was evident, that it was only the necessity of attending the House which made so many lords requisite. It was only a few years since the naval lords had their half-pay as well as their salaries. He wished to know whether there was any intention of bringing them back to their former condition? Though the vote for marines had passed, he felt it necessary to remark on some extravagant expense under that head. There were sundry officers in the navy in the higher ranks, who received various sums from 5l. a day downwards, amounting in all to 20 l. a day, or 7,300 l. a year. These
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were pure sinecures, and ought to be abolished. The marines were divided into four divisions—Woolwich, Chatham, Portsmouth, and Plymouth. There was a paymaster's establishment for each division; so that there was the enormous charge of 5,000 l. for paying 8,000 men. There was also the expense of the staff for each division. He suggested that the divisions should be consolidated, or the staff expenses reduced. The next appointment to which he objected was that of the private secretary to the first lord of the admiralty. The gentleman who held this office was also one of the commissioners of the victualling board, and derived from both these offices 1,100 l. a year. Now, either one or the other must be a sinecure, as one gentleman could not attend to two efficient offices; and, conceiving that of the private secretary to be of that description, he thought the office should be abolished. The paymaster of widows' pensions should also be abolished; for all the duties belonging to that office might be performed by any commissioner of the navy board, or even by any clerk of that board.
Mr. Crokersaid, that he never felt more pain in the course of his life, than during the speech of his gallant friend (Sir J. York), whose confidence and friendship he had long enjoyed. It was to him matter of extreme mortification, now to learn, that on former occasions, when they were favoured with his gallant friend's support, it was not the spontaneous exercise of his own candid opinion of which he had given them the benefit, but that which his love of office had dictated. With reference to the constitution of this board, having had thirteen years actual experience of its labours, he must state his deliberately formed conviction, that the constitution of that board was not only highly useful, but almost absolutely indispensable. As to the comparative value of the lay and naval lords, he would also add, that were he to draw a line of preference between the two classes, he would make it in favour of the civil lords; and that, so far from these being mere puppets moved at the will of another, or not moved at all, they were the most active, useful, and efficient class of persons in the public service. If, therefore, it should unfortunately be decided that' two lords should be struck from the board, he had no doubt that those who knew the public business would prefer that the re-

529
duction, instead of being two lay commissioners, should be one lay and one naval commissioner. But he must again say that he thought the present constitution of the board ought not to be altered. Even if the alteration were carried into effect, he could not contemplate any saving to the public; for, as it would then become indispensably necessary that the remaining commissioners should devote their whole time to the duties of their office, it would be impossible to appropriate to them smaller salaries than those of the under secretaries of state. With reference to the question of the marines, he should postpone what he meant to say upon the subject, principally because the marines were already voted in the wear and tear estimates; but the particular papers lately moved for by the hon. member should be forthcoming as quick as possible. In allusion to the appointments of the general, lieutenant general, major general, and four colonels of marines, which had been adverted to by the hon. member, they were certainly in one sense sinecures; but he had never spoken to one officer, either military or naval, who thought these seven sinecures, as they had been called, an unreasonable reservation to reward great naval service, and particularly when it was considered what honours and emoluments were appropriated for military services. If the hon. gentleman could show, in any single instance, that any of these offices had been bestowed by favouritism, or in any other way than for the most brilliant public service, then, indeed, he might complain of their continuance as an undue source of patronage. But let any man examine the rolls of British glory, and say whether he would not find foremost in the catalogue of brilliant services the names of those officers who held the situations of generals or colonels in the marines. Let the list be examined. Who was the general of marines? Lord St. Vincent. By whom appointed? Not by private patronage; not by political friends; but by political enemies; for he had no other, except the enemies of his country. Who was the lieutenant general? A name the third which would be found in his family to have graced the naval annals of his country, sir Richard Bickerton. Of the major-general of marines, as he was present, he could not speak: indeed this was the only room in England where the praise of that distin-
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guished officer could not he resounded to his honour. He could not at this moment recollect the names of the naval captains filling colonelcies in the marines; but this he could say, that they were selected, not only for their seniority in point of standing in the service, but also for their achievements. He could assure the House, upon his honour as a gentleman, that, at the councils which preceded the appointment to the colonelcies, he never heard any other questions put than—Who were the captains who had most perilously served their country? Who had been most under the hottest fire? Who had gained the greatest honours, and bore the most valuable medals to record their fame? He challenged any man to produce an instance of a single appointment of this description which had been conferred upon any other grounds than those which he had just enumerated. Lord Nelson, sir R: Keats, sir J. Saumarez sir T. Duckworth, and others of a list, he thanked God, too long to name, had in succession filled these offices, as a reward for glorious public service. Surely no man could on reflection wish to shear the naval service of this little reservation for its ultimate reward.—As to the half pay enjoyed by admirals who sat at the board, and which the hon. gentleman had described as being a modern innovation, that had been arranged by the friends of the gentlemen opposite; and indeed, if it had not been so arranged, the officers would have still enjoyed it, as of right. Why mark out these particular persons as disentitled to their half pay, when the same income was enjoyed by persons in the excise and customs—when it was regularly received by every captain, and by every lieutenant in the preventive service? With respect to the distribution of the marines, he could assure the hon. gentleman that it was managed as well as the nature of the service admitted, and that no saving could attach to embodying the four divisions into one. An allusion had been made to the emoluments of the private secretary to the first lord of the Admiralty. Now, in looking to that situation, the committee were bound to consider it as one of high and confidential trust, for which the mere salary of 300 l. could never be considered as an adequate remuneration. It was this consideration which invariably, from the time of lord Howe downwards, induced each successive first lord to confer upon his

531
private secretary the first suitable vacant office, to make up a proper compensation for his confidential trust. Whether it would be better to alter this plan, and give at once a full and proper salary, he would not say; perhaps it would. With respect to the duties of the paymaster of the, marines1, they were as essential as those of any other civil officer in the whole range of the navy. The hon. gentleman was perhaps mistaken by the term paymaster: the fact was, the person who filled the office was also inspector, and barrack-master and quarter-master of the marines. Indeed, upon reference to the report of the finance committee, the hon. gentleman would find the necessity of that situation fully recognized and acted upon. But it might be said, that 500 l. a-year would be enough for the discharge of the duties: he thought certainly not, considering the dignity of the station, and also that the officer had to provide 20,000 l. security. He was entitled to speak of this paymaster's services, from a knowledge of his duties; for scarcely a day passed, and many times in that day, without his having occasion to communicate with him. If the hon. gentleman was, aware of the arduous nature of the duties, he would never think of proposing a reduction in the sum. As to the duties of paymaster of widows' pensions, he might just observe, that those duties had quadrupled within the last eight years. Formerly, the widows were paid once a-year: of late they were paid four times a-year. The hon. gentleman was fond of drawing comparisons with the year 1792. Let him do so on this occasion. In 1792, there were 1,400 widows to be paid, and the pensions amounted to 31,000 l. In 1820, there were 2,873 widows, and the pensions amounted to 121,000 l.; making in the comparison more than double the amount of persons, and quadruple in money. He would not deny that this business might be transferred to the Navy Pay-office; but if so, extra payment must be given for the performance of the additional duties; so that, in point of fact, no saving would be effected.
Sir J. Yorkeexpressed great esteem for his hon. friend, but observed, that he did not think their friendship such a rope of sand as could be broken by his conscientious declaration, that the business of the, Board of Admiralty might be as well done by five as by seven lords.
After; some further conversation, the
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committee divided: For the Resolution, 115. For the Amendment 77.

List of the Minority.

Bastard, E. P.

Lushington, S.

Bankes,, H.

Lennard, T. B.

Buxton, T. F.

Milbank, R.

Beaumont, T. W.

Martin, John

Belgrave, viscount

Monck, J. B.

Bright, Henry

Moore, Peter

Bennet, hon. H. G.

Moore, Abraham

Birch, Josh.

Macdonald, J.

Bury, viscount

Maxwell, John

Barnard, viscount

Marjoribanks, S.

Concannon, Lucius.

Maberly, J.

Crompton, S.

Maberly, W. L.

Calcraft, J.

Nugent, lord

Creevy, Thos.

O'Callaghan, J.

Colburne, N. R.

Phillips, G. jun.

Calthorpe, hon. F.

Palmer, C. F.

Corbet, Panton

Parnell, sir H.

Chaloner, Robert

Russell, lord W.

Dundas, hon. T.

Russell, lord J.

Denman, Thomas

Rickford, W.

Duncannon, visct.

Rice, T. S.

Davies, T. H.

Ricardo, D.

Evans, William

Smith, W.

Fitzroy, lord C.

Smith, John

Forbes, C.

Smith, Abel

Fergusson, sir R. C.

Sebright, sir J.

Griffiths, J. W.

Tierney, rt. hon. G.

Graham, Sandford

Tremayne, J H.

Gordon, R.

Tulk, C. A.

Grattan, J.

Warre, J. A.

Hutchinson, hon. C

Wyvill, M.

Haldimand, W.

Whitbread, S. C.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Williams, W.

Hornby, Ed.

Wilson, Thomas

Heathcote, G. J.

Wilson, sir R.

Harbord, hon. Ed.

Wharton, John

Hume, J.

Whitmore, W. W.

Hotham, lord

Wood, M.

Keck, G. A. L.

Yorke, sir J.

Langston, J. H.

TELLER.

Lemon, sir W.

Bernal, R.

A second division took place on a proposition for a reduction of 1,000 l. from the said grant: For the original Resolution, 118: For the Amendment, 55. On the resolution, "That 38,924 l. 2s. 6d. be granted, for defraying the Salaries, and Contingent Expenses of the Navy Pay Office,"
Mr. Humeobjected to this resolution, chiefly on the ground that the charges for this office were as great now that it disposed of but six millions of money, as when it had to distribute 22 millions. In 1792, the expense was but 12,000 l.; in 1813, it had risen to 44,930 l. The Finance Committee of 1817 had expressed a confident hope that in consequence of the peace, a reduction, would take place

533
in this office as well as others, which had been necessarily augmented during the war. Yet in 1818, the expense of this office was 38,174 l.; in 1819, 37,839 l.; in 1820, 37,313 l.; and in the present year 38,924 l. was required, which was but 6,000 l. less than the high establishment of 1813. The office had nothing to do with money. It did not pay the men, who only presented them the orders which they received, and which entitled them to another order at the Pay-office, for which they exchanged their own, and took the other to the Bank; so that, in fact, the Pay-office was only an office to put those matters on record; and there was no banker that would not keep the six millions at an expense less than 5,000 l. He repeated, that the expense ought now, when six millions was the entire sum, to be much less than when the amount was 22 millions. There was a branch of the establishment which he wished to remark upon. It was the allotment branch, which was appointed by act of parliament, for the purpose of allowing seamen to pay part of their wages to their families and relatives. At a former period, when there were 120,000 seamen, the expense of this branch ought to have been much greater than at present, when there were but 14,000: but in fact the charge, which was 3,820 l., was still kept up. He would therefore move as an amendment, that the sum of 38,924 l. be reduced to 28,924 l.
Mr. Robinsonassured the hon. member, that no man could be more anxious than he was to reduce the expenses of this office, and that he never felt more mortified in his life than when he found that, in consequence of the operation of an order in council, the estimate for the present year was greater than for the last. That order required revision; but he wished to square the proposed reduction by some more general system, and that could not be done without consideration. As to the nature of the office of treasurer of the navy, the hon. member had quoted the opinion of the committee of finance on that point; but he (Mr. R.) could not conceive how the committee could have so described the duties of the office. Many of the duties of the treasurer of the navy were entirely different from those of a banker. The hon. member had observed, that the treasurer of the navy had nothing to do with the payment of money, farther than giving one order for another. This, however, was not the case. If a
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person went to a banker with a draft, bearing his signature, he would riot ask the person how he came by it, but would pay it at once. Now, the treasurer of the navy had to inquire by what right the parties who demanded payment made that demand. If he was not satisfied that they were fairly entitled to make the application, he refused to attend to it; and actions at law had been brought against that officer for refusing to pay, in cases where the claim appeared to be unjust. Here, then, he exercised a discretion which a banker did not. There were no less than twenty-one acts of parliament by which the duties of the office were regulated. He believed they contained 400 clauses, which prescribed and pointed out the particular functions of the treasurer of the navy. He begged to call the attention of the House to two offices connected with this department—the Inspector's branch, and the Prize branch. The first was to superintend documents and prevent frauds, connected with seamen's wills. The hon. member would say, "What use is there for such an establishment, where you have only 14,000 seamen?" If he, however, looked to what led to the establishment of that office, he would find that it was very important. A line of battle ship was lost, and the whole crew perished. A woman, who heard of the circumstance was extremely successful in personating the widow, the daughter, or the sister of some of those deceased seamen. The hon. member might think it very extraordinary if he said, that this woman represented 20 or 30 of the female relations of the crew who were thus lost; but the fact was, that she pretended to be the widow, the sister, or the child, of 200 different persons, and by forging wills and other documents, contrived to receive the pay and prize-money due to every one of these individuals. This gross and wicked proceeding led to the establishment of the Inspector's branch, and was of great importance to the well-being of the navy. Instead of a system of fraud and forgery being regularly carried on, although there had within no long period been 20,000 claims, but four instances of fraud had occurred. With respect to the prize branch, the duties attached to it were similar to those of a banking house. It was necessary that those duties should be performed by some specific departments; and fifteen years experience had shown that

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they could not be placed in a better department than that of the treasurer of the navy. The office was instituted to control the acts of the sub-prize agents. Our seamen had long been subjected to the grossest frauds; and if some office of this kind had not been established, they would in many instances, have been deprived of the advantages which they ought to enjoy as the reward of their glorious career. Since he had become treasurer of the navy, whenever a vacancy occurred, he had it filled up at the least possible expense to the public. If the hon. member thought that there was nothing to do in this branch, he was very much deceived. In the last quarter, 1,400 claims for prize money had come into that office. Some claims were undoubtedly very small, even for 2s. 6d. But it required as much correspondence and trouble to trace fraud in one of those small claims, as if it were for 1,000 l. The allotment branch was not confined merely to seamen's wages, but extended to the full and half-pay of officers. Full pay was now allowed quarterly instead of half yearly; remittances were made to officers, and they were allowed to draw bills on the Navy Pay-office. These different duties were of importance to the public; and he was sure if the hon. member visited the office, and saw all that was to be done, he would find (although reductions might be made, and he readily admitted the fact) that the business was of a very different nature from that which he imagined it to be.
Mr. Humesaid, that after the candid statement of the right hon. gentleman, he would not press his amendment to a division, though he did not think he had fully answered his objections.
The resolution was agreed to. The Chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again.

BANK CASH PAYMENTS BILL.
The Earl of Liverpool, in rising to move the third reading of this bill, said, it would be necessary for him to state in a few words its object. The bill did not propose to make any alteration in the measure which had two years ago been adopted by parliament, further than to anticipate the pe-
496
riod at which the Bank were to be allowed to pay in cash. By the measure formerly adopted, certain stages were prescribed to the Bank in the progress of the resumption of cash payments, In the first instance, they were prohibited to pay in coin until a certain period; in the second they were permitted to pay in coin under certain limitations; and in the third the restrictions were to be removed altogether. By law, the Bank could not pay in coin till May 1822; the object of the present bill was not to alter the principle of the law, but merely to vary its operation by enabling the Bank to do that in May 1821, which they could not otherwise do till May 1822. He felt great satisfaction in stating that it was the intention of the Bank to adopt certain measures for issuing specie and paying off all their 1l. notes;, and it would be a great public inconvenience not to give them the permissive power proposed by the bill.
The Marquis of Lansdowncould not allow a measure of such importance to pass the third reading without making a few observations with respect to its general principle. The object of the bill was, not only to afford facility to the Bank, but at the same time to promote the advantage and convenience of the public. By this measure the Bank would be enabled to throw into circulation the specie which they had accumulated. And throughout the inquiries which had taken place on this subject, he had always maintained the opinion, which he saw no reason to change, that when once the currency of the country should be established on durable principles, the less of the precious metals which might remain in the Bank the better. The present bill however, did not rest its claims to the attention of the House, as being merely a measure to enable the Bank to pay in specie, but as embodying the general principle of the financial system attempted to be established two years ago. Nobody could now doubt the capability of the Bank to pay all demands upon them. All the difficulties which some persons had anticipated would attend the resumption of cash payments had been already surmounted by the Bank, for at any time within the last eight or nine months, the Bank could have paid all demands upon them without the slightest difficulty—He did not consider the bill as in the smallest degree affecting the decision of the great question with respect to which kind off

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currency it would be most expedient for parliament to establish, namely, whether a paper currency founded on a metallic standard, or a metallic currency only. If it could be hoped, that by adopting a metallic currency, a final extinction would be put on the crime of forgery, and all its train of demoralizing consequences, the determination of parliament would be in favour of the measure, whatever might be the inconveniencies attached to it. But he did not think that parliament was prepared to come to such a conclusion in favour of a metallic currency. The more he had considered the subject, the more he was satisfied that it still remained a question whether, after a paper currency had received all the improvement of which it was capable, it was probable one system would give rise to forgery to a greater extent than the other. From the papers which had recently been sent to their lordships from the other House he had collected some facts which bore materially on this question. He found that in the course of the last twenty years the convictions for coining amounted to 3191 whilst the convictions for forgery during the same period, with all the facilities afforded to the commission of that crime, by the defective state of the existing notes, amounted to only 1581. Thus it appeared, that during the time he had mentioned, the convictions for coining were nearly three times as many as those for forgery. It might be said that a great many of these convictions were for coining silver. Allowing that to be the case, as a large quantity of silver would still continue in circulation in the event of the resumption of payments in specie, no material diminution would take place. Besides, it might be expected, that when gold came into circulation, the temptation for coining would be greater than at present. He was sorry to learn that in the opinion of the best-informed persons on this subject, great facilities were afforded for the coining of gold by the introduction of platina. He did not make these observations with a view of inducing their lordships to come to any determination either one way or the other; he only wished them to suspend their judgments on this question—whether the safety of the community, as founded on the currency, and viewed with reference to the penal laws, would be better promoted by a metallic than5 a paper currency. For his own part he would say, that if the advantages of a
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metallic currency over that of paper could not be shown to be of sufficient importance to justify its preference, he would decide in favour of a paper currency as the most economical machine that could be adopted for carrying on the circulation of the country. After the bill should pass, the principle of a metallic standard, without, a metallic currency, would still continue. He was of opinion that under these circumstances the Bank should be compelled to purchase gold a fraction below the Mint price. The Bank could have no objection to this. Alluding to the important measure which parliament had adopted two years ago, his lordship observed that he did not wish to retract any opinion which he had given on that subject. He did not desire to weaken the responsibility which the noble earl opposite and the rest of his majesty's ministers and parliament took upon themselves when they at that period attempted to bring back the standard to its denomination. He thought that parliament deserved the thanks of the country for adopting that measure, which had been forced upon them by necessity, for necessity imposed upon parliament the duty, even at the expense of great sacrifices, of avoiding to recur to a dangerous precedent. But though his opinions had undergone no change with respect to the propriety of that measure, he would repeat what he had stated on a former occasion—that it had never entered into the contemplation of any individual in the country, that the moment when the difficulties of the country were increased by the passing of the bill to which he alluded, another attempt would be made to increase the amount of taxation. It was the duty of parliament at that period to consider whether the taxation was adequate to the necessary expenditure of the country, and whether it was not possible to reduce the expenditure. If it had been deemed impossible to reduce the expenditure, it would have altered the view which he had taken of the suggestion of the committee of that House, because it would have altered his view of the practicability of carrying the recommendation of that committee into effect. He did not object to the particular taxes imposed at that time, but to the general principle of making any addition to the burthens of the country, whilst they were adopting a measure which tended to increase the already existing burthens—not only by the

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difference it would create between the new arid old denominations of coin, but by other results; for he was of opinion that his friend Mr. Baring had not successfully shown, in opposition to Mr. Ricardo, that the extended distress which at present existed was to be attributed to the difference in the value of coin at one moment compared with another, and not to a more extended influence. No person who had looked at the present condition of the country, and considered the distresses which weighed upon the agricultural and commercial classes, particularly the former, could avoid coming to the conclusion that those distresses were much beyond any thing that could be the result of any difference in the prices of bullion at one time and at another. Much as he approved of the step which had been taken towards a return to cash payments, he had to qualify his approbation in consequence of other circumstances. In adopting that step, he had hoped that the policy of ministers would have been to reduce the expenditure of the country, and not to increase its burthens, by the imposition of new taxes. But it would be said, that they could not think of relinquishing the idea of a sinking fund, and that that fund could not be rendered efficient without increasing the taxes. It appeared to him, however, that the sinking fund had been abandoned long before, and that the taxes had been imposed, not to maintain a real sinking fund, but merely the shadow of one. If it was really wished to establish a fund for reducing a debt, that certainly would have been done far more satisfactorily, and also more easily by diminishing the expenditure than by an endeavour to increase the revenue, by laying on taxes which would sap the roots of that wealth and industry through the employment of which, relief for the difficulties of the country was yet to be hoped for. It was not by the addition of three million of taxes to maintain the shadow of a sinking fund, that any thing like a diminution of the public debt was to be obtained. It was only by a strict economy, and by alleviating the pressure of taxation, that any thing like a real surplus for the liquidation of the national debt could be expected. In bringing back the finances and the currency of the country to a healthful state, there were three courses to be followed: from two of which he had, when this subject was before under
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consideration, stated that he should recoil, and from them he still would recoil with alarm. Their lordships might have diminished the interest paid to the public creditor; but this was a resource, the resorting to which could never be excused, except by an unavoidable necessity. It was a breach of public faith, from the idea of the commission of which their lordships must recoil with horror. There was another expedient. Their lordships might have altered the denomination of the coin, but if they did not choose to do that, there remained only for them the course which they had pursued. Having then resolved to return to the former currency, it was necessary to bring down the expenditure by reductions and economy below the revenue. He did not mean to say that this course had not in some measure been adopted; but it was necessary still to pursue it steadily, and avoid all deviations from it. To it only could they look for salvation to the country.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, heap-proved of the bill; but if he were to give his advice to the gentlemen of the Bank, it would be, that they should be very cautious in their proceedings under it. In making this observation he called their lordships' attention to the remarkable circumstance, that gold had been for about six months at one price. It had continued steadily at the standard price at which it was purchased by the Bank. Now, to tell him that an article continued for any considerable length of time at the same price was tantamount to saying that it did not come fairly into the market; for the ordinary law of supply and demand rendered it quite impossible that an invariable price should be maintained. When he found that the nominal price of standard gold had been for six, or even three, months, neither more nor less than 3l. 17 s. 10½d. he must say that that circumstance afforded him no criterion whatever of the real price. But it was very easy for him, or any one of their lordships, to tell what the market price of standard gold ought to be, by comparing it with the price of Portuguese and doubloon gold. They knew how many carats fine each kind was> and they knew the price of each in the market. The price of these foreign gold coins was 3l. 14 s. 6d. per ounce. The price of standard gold, therefore, compared with them, ought to be 3l. 19 s. 0½d.

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or 3l. 19 s. 7d. Now, he would like to ask any of the gentlemen of the Bank, whether they ever had in view making payments at either of these prices? In fact, the present price was evidently artificial. His noble friend had alluded to the question, whether a paper or a metallic currency was preferable. He confessed, for his part, that even on the point of economy, he was not satisfied that a paper circulation was the most advantageous. He knew it was often said, that if you take thirty millions, the sum which might be necessary for the circulation of the country to purchase, you thereby create all at once a dead capital. But this appeared to be an erroneous view of the subject. Gold was never purchased in the way contemplated, but gradually, and in exchange for manufactures exported. The purchase of the gold, therefore, instead of being disadvantageous to the country, was highly beneficial. The loss sustained by the depreciation of paper had also to be taken into consideration; and when the question was fairly weighed, their lordships would see reason to doubt whether, on the mere ground of economy, a metallic currency ought not to be their choice. Of this he was certain, that the advantage the manufacturers of the country must derive from it would be very great, by the encouragement it would give to exportation. But, if the country was to look forward to the possibility of being again engaged in foreign warfare, then it was highly important to have a metallic currency; and, much as he deprecated war, it was fit to be prepared for it.—There was another question connected with that of the nature of the currency started by his noble friend, namely whether a greater risk arose from false coining or forging of notes. Now, considering that the price of silver was 4s. 10½d. or 4s. 11 d. and the number of shillings the ounce was coined into, it appeared that no country in the world held out such encouragement to coining as this, did. The coiner might gain by his operation altogether about 14 per cent. With regard to what had been said as to the reduction of the establishments of the country, he should be extremely glad to see any plan of that kind proposed, from which efficient relief could be expected. Every day, it was true, new schemes were proposed; and it was suggested to take 300 l. from one man, and 400 l. from another, and so on. This was a petty
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mode of proceeding, altogether unworthy of a great nation; but let him see how a million or half a million could be fairly saved, though that would go but a short way towards relief, and he would, be glad to concur in the necessary means. His noble friend had also alluded to the denomination of the currency as affording a resource of which their lordships might have availed themselves. He was one who thought there was a time when their lordships might have altered the denomination of the currency with advantage. He meant at the time when the one-pound note was depreciated to 14 s. 8d. Had it then been resolved to make the pound 16 s., a premium would have been given to every holder of 1s. 4d. The benefit derived by every man who had payments to make from the measure, and the effect it would have had in reducing the public burthens, would have rendered, it satisfactory to the country. This favourable opportunity had, however, been allowed to pass by, and such an arrangement was now no longer practicable. But perhaps even now their lordships might go so far as to make silver a legal tender in payments. This, he was convinced^ would prove a great relief to the tenantry throughout the country, and to the public at large. It certainly could not be a greater violation of the principles of currency to make the silver coinage, of which 40 s. was at present a legal tender generally receivable, than what was done with respect to gold. He concurred in what his noble friend had said respecting the sinking fund. Were the country ten times more affluent than it now was, it would be absurd to persist in that ruinous scheme. His noble friend had called it the shadow of a sinking fund; but shadow as it was, the abolition of the establishment connected with it would be a great public benefit. If the three millions or two millions and a half employed to keep up this shadow were applied to the public service, there would result, not only relief to the public, of taxes to that amount, but the produce of all the remaining taxes would be increased, and the demand for labour would be augmented. The mischievous consequences of the sinking fund, in the circumstances, in which it now stood, were so obvious, that he could not understand however those who were, on general grounds, advocates for such a measure, could support it at the present moment.
Lord Kingwas very desirous to see the measure before their lordships carried into complete effect; but he believed great difficulties would be found to arise from* the junction of increased taxation with a new currency. The noble lord who spoke last could see no means of effectually reducing the expenditure. Now it was not required of him, or any individual in that House, to point out details of reductions. Let, however, the House of Commons come to a resolution to reduce the expense of the public departments to fifteen millions, or any other given sum, and he was sure the head of the Treasury, the noble lord opposite, would discover how the business might be managed. He would doubtless say to the head of the army, you shall have only so much; to the head of the ordnance you shall have only so much; for miscellaneous services so much shall be allowed, and no more. As soon as this distribution was made, the required reductions would follow of course. The great difficulty to be contended with, and one which had always been foreseen, was that of paying the same amount of taxation as before with a currency of increased value. With regard to the sinking fund, any tax for its support was most objectionable. He conceived the proper view with respect to it was this—that at the time when steps were taking to raise a depreciated currency to the legal standard, it was wrong to bring forward another measure for the support of the sinking fund. Having, by the measures taken for restoring a just currency, increased the value of the fundholders dividend, was it reasonable that we should also increase his capital? Such, however, was the effect of imposing taxes for the support of a sinking fund. With regard to the price of gold, he was of opinion that, the purchases of the Bank tended not merely to raise it to its proper value, but to carry it beyond it. The Bank gives a certain price for gold, 3l. 17 s. 10½d. But, judging from the value, if this rate of payment were not given by the Bank, gold ought to have fallen below the standard price. The effect of the transactions of the Bank, therefore, was, to raise the gold currency not only to the Mint standard, but beyond it. With respect to purchases, the Bank, bethought, had done too much: there had been too great an eagerness for the collection of gold. The value of the paper was thus
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decreased in comparison with the gold. He should very much wish to see this measure accompanied by others. Their lordships ought to consider what the state of the law with regard to the currency now was. The acts inflicting penalties on sending gold out of the country had, he believed been repealed. These penalties were very properly abolished. But then it was to be recollected, that coin might be legally exported or melted, and that the country would therefore have to pay the expense of the coinage—of all the coins sent abroad, or committed to the crucible. This was, however, an evil easily remedied. In every other country in Europe, the expense of the coinage was taken out of the coin, and he thought a similar practice ought to be introduced here. He did not mean to recommend a seignorage. He would propose to take, only the exact expense of coining, or what was called a brassage. He did not know what that might be; but suppose it amounted- to one per cent, then a person taking gold to the. Mint to be coined-would receive 99 pieces for the value of 100 in bullion. This arrangement would take away the inducement to export or to melt the currency, while the coin would be kept up to the standard purity. The Mint arrangement, by which nothing is taken for the expense of coinage, was at all times a bad regulation; but was now, from the altered situation of the country, become much worse. From the change which was taking place in the government of South America, the precious metal would be brought here with more facility; than to any other part of Europe. It was probable, therefore, that gold would' always be cheaper in the English market than in any other: there would, of course, always be an influx of gold and silver into this country, and a reflux from it; but if the regulations of the Mint, continued, it would be more convenient to export specie than bullion, and thus we should not only have to coin for ourselves,, but for all the rest of Europe. He could not see why the expense of coining should be incurred by the public, when the standard of the coin could be maintained in equal purity by the arrangement he* had described, or some process of a similar nature.
The Earl of Liverpoolobserved, that some particular views had been taken in the course of this conversation, the justice and propriety of which he was

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not disposed to question. He agreed with the noble marquis who spoke last, and the noble lord in regarding the bill as a permissive regulation. It appeared to him right and expedient, not, at this moment, to determine what the precise system of our circulation finally should be. But at the same time he thought it his duty to remark, that the passing of this bill would certainly operate to increase, in a great degree, the difficulty and inconvenience of adopting other principles. The Bank were of opinion that it would be a judicious measure to pay, without further delay, their 1l. notes, now amounting to between six and seven millions, and to issue gold in their place. The metropolis, therefore, as well as the county of Lancaster, which was also supplied by the Bank, might very soon expect to possess 3 metallic instead of a paper currency. It was obvious that, after such a change, the inconveniences attending any plan for re-settling the system must be materially augmented, lie did not at this time mean to go into a discussion of the question, whether upon the whole a paper or a metallic currency was the fittest for a country like this. Some doubts, however, he could not but entertain as to the accuracy of the noble marquis's proposition; the inclination of his own mind being, that, of the two, a metallic currency was the most advantageous. The superior economy of a paper circulation had been alluded to; but the attendant evils, he feared, overbalanced that advantage, important as it might be. The extent to which forgery prevailed, as compared with the offence of coining, formed one very serious objection. It must be remembered, too, that the forgeries consisted chiefly of one-pound notes, and entirely of notes of a small denomination. At critical periods, when a danger of overtrading existed, and a variety of fictitious capital was brought into activity, a paper currency was by far the best calculated to encourage the spirit of the first, and the formation of the latter. Giving, therefore, all its due weight to the argument of economy, he apprehended, that where it was wished to establish a fixed and solid system, the preference ought still to be given to a currency composed of the precious metals. Nevertheless, he was desirous that the subject should be still left open for discussion. Whilst he was upon this topic, he might also remind their lordships that
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there was a metallic currency in this country up to the period of the suspension of cash payments at the Bank, and that it was, therefore, the system under which we had become what we were.—Having said thus much, he would shortly refer to the particular measure before their, lordships. The market price of gold, he had reason to believe, was below the standard price of 3l. 17 s. 10½d. Large quantities of bullion, to the amount of perhaps 500,000 l., now entered this country monthly. The price of gold was necessarily on the decline, and probably did not at present exceed 3l. 15 s. or 3l. 16 s. But, when gold was at 4l. per ounce, it was because the Bank, no doubt in the exercise of a conscientious judgment thought proper to give that price. Another subject introduced into the discussion was the 3,000,000 l. of new taxes imposed in 1819, and to which the most unfortunate effects had been ascribed. Now, it was his firm belief that those taxes had not at all increased the public distress. Since the termination of the war no less than 16,000,000 l. of taxes had been reduced; and it would not be difficult to show that similar or greater distress existed in other countries where there were no such taxes. The pressure upon agriculture had been felt upon the continent; and, in America the difficulties of their situation had rendered it necessary to negociate a loan during the session of congress* With respect to the sinking fund, he was one of those who had advised that an addition should be made to it two years ago. He did so upon this principle—that if an effectual sinking fund was to be maintained, and that already in existence to be increased, it was most wise to do at once whatever was desirable, and then leave the country to itself. Nothing had operated; more to prevent them from knowing the actual situation of the country than the practice of raising loans in time of peace, by which the money market was kept in a feverish and precarious state. If it was expedient to maintain a sinking fund, the next consideration was, what ought to be its amount? With reference to the first point, it did appear to him, that, supposing the reduction of debt to be the object, it was yet very important to keep a sinking fund; and that as no private individual; could be called opulent without a surplus of income, so a nation could not be truly flourishing or prosperous without a like excess over its expenditure. Circums-

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stances might Easily arise which would demand at once the additional expenditure of two or three millions. Such a necessity might be brought about by unfavourable seasons, or by an unavoidable increase of our military force. Without some resource of this kind, therefore, a nation did not give itself elbow-room, nor prepare for any of those exigencies which were of perpetual recurrence. Upon these grounds he had come to the conclusion that it was desirable that a sinking fund of 5,000,000 l. should be established.— He now came to notice those ideas which bad been suggested in some quarters, as to the means of obtaining relief by reducing the interest of the public debt. Such an act would, in his opinion, be the most disgraceful that any legislature could commit; and it would be a waste of words to expose its monstrous injustice. By another plan it was proposed to introduce a slight depreciation in the value of the currency; but this was precisely the same thing, done in a still more objectionable mode. Much had been said of the possibility of reducing our establishments; and their lordships knew, by the votes of the other House, that inquiry had been made into the several branches of our expenditure. Some considerable retrenchments had been made; but it was of importance that their lordships should know how this matter really stood. The great burthen at present was the half-pay of the army, the navy, and the ordnance. The charge alone of the army and ordnance in this respect amounted to 5,000,000 l., or what formerly was sufficient for defraying the whole expenses of our civil establishment. Now, this was a source of expenditure that must continue to flow on; it was a subject which they could not touch. It now cost more to support the same number of men than it did formerly. It had been, therefore, found necessary to raise their pay; and perhaps the increase had been too large; but he must be a bold man who would now propose to reduce it to its former amount. Of such items, however, the mass of our expenditure was made up; and unless they could be deducted from the account, he did not see where any effectual retrenchment was to take place. He knew it was said, that our military establishments were too large for a time of peace. To this he could only answer, that ministers were disposed to bring them within as narrow limits as was consistent with their
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duty. It was obvious, however, in the altered circumstances of the country, that a much more considerable force than was maintained at preceding periods of tranquillity had become requisite. The noble lord had alluded to the existing system of coinage, and seemed to think it capable of some amendment. There were two principles upon which the views of the noble lord might be carried into effect. To the first, that of a seignorage, he entertained a decided objection. That of a brassage seemed to point out a system entirely new, and would require much consideration.
The Earl of Darnleyexpressed his conviction that great retrenchments might be effected in the public expenditure. With this impression on his mind, he should feel it his duty to call their lordships' attention to the subject during the present session.
The Duke of Wellingtonstated, that if the whole of the ordnance department were abolished, the salaries and half-pay must remain, and the amount of the reduction would not exceed one-third of the present expenditure.
The Bill was then read a third time.