Sitting of 22 March 1821

RECEIVERS-GENERAL OF LAND AND ASSESSED TAXES—DISTRIBUTORS OF STAMPS.
Mr. Humesaid, he should confine his motion at present to the offices of Receivers-general and Distributors of Stamps, in order to avoid the imputation of proposing sweeping reductions. In proposing the abolition of those offices his object was,—1. To establish economy in the collection of the revenue; and, 2. To reduce the patronage and influence which produced so many baneful effects to this country. The two offices referred to were in the patronage of that House, and
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they were given in the several counties of the members of the counties to which they belonged. If the House should agreed with him in reducing those offices, the saving and the diminution of influence would be considerable. There were 65 receivers-general in England and Wales and one in Scotland. There were 95 distributors of stamps in Great Britain. The receivers-general in England and Wales were paid last year 41,415 l. and 4l,984 l. as the poundage on their receipts. The great majority of the offices were filled by deputies; 34 being entirely performed by deputies; 10 jointly by principals and deputies; and 22 in person by the principals. It was strange, too, that those who received the largest amount performed the duties of their offices by deputies. In three reports on sinecures it had been admitted as a principle, that where the office was performed by deputy, there was prima facie evidence that the principal could be dispensed with. In Ireland there was no receiver-generals. Why, then, should so much of the public money be expended on sinecure offices in England? The objection made to the reduction of the salaries of these offices was, the great security required from those who held them. Now, he could inform the government, that there were many individuals who would give them as good security as was now given for the proper payment of those taxes into the Exchequer, and who would collect them without taking the poundage which was at present taken upon them. Indeed, there was in London one receiver-general, who collected them without deriving any emoluments from the poundage upon them. The gentleman's name was Everett: and all that he received from the public, was 771 l. a year, which was the amount of expense Incurred by his predecessor in the arrangement of his office, and which the government had insisted upon his taking, in consequence, of his patriotic conduct in giving up the poundage. He mentioned it also for another reason, namely, to show that there were other profits connected with the office. Up to 1783, large sums of money had been allowed to remain in the hands of the collectors, and great losses had consequently been sustained by the public. In that year an order was made, that the balances should never exceed 6,500 l. That order was so far from protecting the public from injury, that the losses in the collection of

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the land and assessed taxes were greater than those sustained in any other branch of the public revenue. From a return, it appeared that on the 5th Jan. 1820, the lowest balance of cash in the hands of the receivers-general was 367,574 l. Besides the interest upon this sum, they received a poundage upon the whole sum collected. The poundage was the same now as it was 50 years ago; and if it was deemed a sufficient remuneration when the taxes were smaller in amount, but the difficulties of transmitting them to London greater than they were at present, surely it was more than sufficient, now that the amount of the taxes was so much increased and the difficulties of remitting them so much diminished, that any banker in the country would remit them to town without making any charge for so doing, and be glad to do so, on account of the benefit which he would derive from the mete transition of the public money through his hands.
It was true, that great securities were required by government for the faithful discharge of the duties of the office of receiver-general. He had no wish to risk a farthing of the public money; but he could not help considering the securities for the office at present required as extravagant. There were individuals now living who, having been security for persons who had settled their accounts as receivers-general, were told, at the time, that there was not any thing, or a very small sum owing from those persons to the public, but who, ten, twelve, or fifteen years afterwards, had charges brought against them of 10,000 l. 20,000 l. and even 100,000 l. If it were good for the public that the demanding enormous securities should continue, he would be the last to reprobate it; but it was as bad as bad could be. Since the year 1790, there had been ten receivers-general who had died or left office, and whose arrears amounted to 304,337 l. On the first of January 1820, 117,115 l. was owing to the public What he wished especially to impress upon the House was, that the large balances which were left in the hands of the receivers-general, was an encouragement to peculation, and the cause of much loss. In the finance accounts it appeared, that although 6,500 l. ought to be the maximum of the balances left in the hands of the receivers-general, many of the balances were of much larger amount; that in the hands of Mr. Eyton, the late receiver-general of Salop, being
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89,180 l., and that in the hands of Mr. Shaw, the late receiver-general of Surrey, 71,861 l. Mr. Shaw died in 1805, leaving a certain balance against him. The com. missioners of taxes made a demand in consequence on his securities, who paid 30,000 l. The commissioners then declared that the remaining balance due did not exceed 3,000 l. or 4,000 l. After five years had elapsed, however, the commissioners again came forward, on information which they had received in the interim, and demanded 40,000 l. over and above the sum which had been already paid by Mr. Shaw's securities, of whom sir G. Noel was one, and Mr. L'Estrange another. This instance alone would be sufficient to show the extent of the existing mischief. But there was a more recent case, the circumstances of which shocked every man who had become acquainted with them. Mr. Eyton, the receiver-general for Salop, died in 1816. Mr. Eyton's accounts having been examined before sir. J. K. Powell, and sir J. Hill became securities for him, they were told that the balance against him was only a few thousand pounds. On that assurance those gentlemen became his securities. After Mr. Eyton's death, however, the commissioners discovered that an enormous balance was owing from him to the public, no less than 20 years ago. In consequence of that being discovered, they called on his securities within a twelvemonth to appear and plead to the charge of no less a sum than 100,000 l. They went into court, and there they proved that the money received from the land-tax had been paid regularly into the exchequer during the time that they had been his securities. The learned judge, however, who presided at the trial, informed the jury, that as money bore no mark by which it could be determined on what account it was paid, they must decide that it had been paid on the general account between the commissioners and Mr. Eyton; and the jury had found a verdict for the whole debt. If government had acted in this case, as it had usually acted in similar cases, it would have issued an execution against their property; but execution had been very properly stayed, and he trusted that no attempt would be made to revive it. It was, however, invidious to place government in such a situation as required it to show indulgence to one party, at the same time that it pressed the strict execution of the law upon another.

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In the post-office, the customs, &c., not one-half of the losses had been sustained in all these departments combined, that had been sustained in the land and assessed taxes alone. In the excise, the total debt on the outstanding balances was not equal to one-half of that upon the land-tax. He, therefore maintained that the House was bound to abolish these appointments, if it had any wish to study economy. There was, however, another point, which he wished to press upon the House. In the excise, the balances were paid into the exchequer eight times a year, whilst the receivers-general of the land-tax only paid in their balances four times a year. If the same plan were adopted as to the land-tax that was adopted as to the excise, a great saving might be created to the public in the interest of the money which at present went into the pockets of the receivers-general. Nor could they justly complain of the adoption of that plan; for, exclusive of 2d. in the pound, which they received upon the land-tax, and 1½d. in the pound upon the assessed taxes, they received 3d. in the pound for collecting it, and paid only 1½d. in the pound to their district clerks, who saved them all the trouble. Their profits would therefore well admit of reduction; or, if they thought that they would not, they had only to abandon their offices, and he would find others who Would perform the duties of them, at a much lower rate, finding exactly as good securities. The nature of those securities was not, how ever entirely free from complaint; as they were not at all proportionable to the amounts received, but varied upon rules, of which he could not discover the principles. If it were necessary to keep op the offices, he would advise that the government should dispose of them by competition, and should encourage individuals to make tenders for them.
He should now proceed to that part of his motion which referred to the Distributors of Stamps. There were 68 distributors of stamps in England and Wales, who, in 1819, received allowances or poundage amounting to 72,650 l., in 1820, to 73,761 l., and on the 5th Jan. 1821, there was a balance of 103,000 l. in their hands due to the public. This was the lowest balance that they ever had; for it was the money they retained at the end of a quarter, when they were expected to; pay it into the exchequer: in the middle of a quarterly they frequently had
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in their possession three or four hundred thousand pounds of the public moneys He found that from 1694 up to 1758 they had been allowed poundage of 5 per cent. In 1758, the rate of poundage was raised from 5 to 6 per cent. It remained at 6 per cent, till 1764, in which year it was again reduced to 5 per cent. Since that time, in consequence of the recommendation of a committee, of which the late Speaker had been chairman, it had been reduced to 4 per cent. in all parts of England, except Bristol, where it was only 3½per cent. Now, the House would find, that each of the distributors of stamps received, upon an average, a salary of 1,068 l. a year, independently of the interest of the public money in his hands, which generally amounted, every year, to several hundreds more. The question which he had, therefore, to submit to the House was—whether this sum was or was not too great a remuneration for their services. In order, to bring under its notice the abuses of this system he would beg their attention to the large sums which some of these distributors received. Mr. J. H. Cole, the distributor for Norfolk, had, for the last 19 years received, upon an average 3,821 l; a year Mr. Gray, of York, 5,881 l. 4s; Mr. Gresley, of Warwick, 2,600; and in Lancashire, where there were two distributors, the average sum which one of them, Mr. Staniforth, had received at Liverpool in the last four years, was 4,328 l., and that of the other them Mr. Myers, was 3,445 l Now he understood, from the best authority, that if government Would allow men of respectability at Liverpool to become the distributors of stamps there, upon giving the same security as was now required, there were gentlemen in that town who would perform all the duties which those two gentlemen performed for 800 l. each. He might be told that would only produce a saving of 3,081 l. for each individual, and that that was only a trifling saving; to which he would answer, that it was only by reductions in items like these that the gross expenditure of the country could be diminished.
He would now call the attention of the House to what was the case in Scotland. At Aberdeen an individual received 1,500 l. a year for the distribution of stamps. When he was last at that town he was informed that many persons who could give security for 50,000 l. would be

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glad to perform the duties of the distributor of stamps for 300 l. a year. In Scotland these distributors, in the year 1795, received a poundage of 10 per cent, but now the 24 distributors only received an allowance of 6 percent upon all their disbursements. Mr. Muir, of Glasgow, was patriotic enough to receive only 4 per cent; but it appeared, notwithstanding, from the returns, that he received 4,885 l. annually, and, if the people of Glasgow were to be believed, a great deal more. He would have government put up the places of these distributors for public biddings. It could not be objected here that the parties who would bid for them would not be persons of property; for, if the individuals gave good security, all was done that was necessary. Besides the objections to the manner in which stamps were distributed, he had another objection to urge: it was this, that if an individual wanted a shilling stamp, he was charged 13 d. for it. He himself had occasion the other day at Bath, to get a 5s stamp, for which he was obliged to pay 5s. 5d. Thus the public were paying to the distributors, an additional tax of from 5 to 7½ per cent. This was a most shameful imposition; and he could not see any reason why, if a man who took five nails from his majesty's yard was thought deserving of transportation, the individual, should not be subjected to a similar punishment who imposed a tax of an additional penny upon every stamp sold to the public. This evil, however, arose very naturally out of another. The distributors of stamps did not discharge their duties in person, but by deputy; and the consequence was, that when an idle poet (Mr. Wordsworth) was appointed one or their number, he minded little in what manner his deputy made his profits, provided he received his share of them—The hon. member then proceeded to notice the manner in which the distribution of stamps was conducted in Scotland. There was in that country, one head distributor, who had the appointment of all the sub-distributors. The head distributor was appointed by the noble lord, in whose hands all the patronage of Scotland was supposed to be; and consequently, as the head distributor was a creature of the noble lord's choosing, the appointment of the sub-distributors was, in point of fact, part of the patronage of the noble lord. Now, all the sub-distributors in Scotland remitted directly to
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one and the same person in London. Why could not this be done in England? If it were done, a saving of 4 per cent might, by that measure alone, be gained to the country. The aggregate of the saving which he had pointed to, would be 132,000 l. It was with satisfaction he observed, that the attention of the Treasury had been directed to the subject. But what was the great relief proposed? A contingent saving of 20,000 l. at some distant period!
Another objection to the present system was, the patronage which it created, and the use made of that patronage. The fact was, that the distributors had been gradually increased from 50 to their present number, to meet the political views of the existing administration. For instance, he had been informed, that some years ago there was but one distributor of stamps at Liverpool. On the death of the individual holding that office, application was made to government by general Tarleton, then one of the members for Liverpool, and the other member, both of whom were supporters of the administration, each in behalf of a friend. In this dilemma what did government do? They adopted the mode of splitting the office into two, and thus of gratifying both the applicants. He was very apprehensive that in many cases the influence which this patronage gave was used most injuriously to the public interest. There was a double motive, therefore, for reforming the present practice—the diminution of the national expenditure by 132,000 l., and the abolition of 167 sinecure places. If the House would not consent to such a reform as this, what could the country expect? Government themselves would eventually benefit from such a reduction of patronage; for, on the same principle as that by which the currency was affected, a diminution of amount would render the remainder more valuable. He repeated what he had said on a late occasion, that he was the government's best friend. If on the present occasion they would adopt his suggestion, they would give universal satisfaction—except, indeed, to the 167 sinecurists. He defied any person to make out a stronger case, coupling policy with economy. He did not propose any thing of a substantive nature. None were so able to carry any thing of that kind into effect as the Treasury; but if ministers would not do so, let them move for the appointment of a com-

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mittee [Hear, hear! from lord Castlereagh]. He was happy to hear the cheers of the noble lord: he certainly did not except them, because the proposal a last year was met by the noble lord with direct negative. He would now move:

1."That there are 65 receivers-general of the land and assessed taxes in England and wales, who received an allowance of 41,415 1.and of 41,984 l. in the years ending the 5th Jan. 1820 and 1821, for the duties of their office, although the greater number of these receivers-general performed that duty entirely by deputy, and retained balances of cash in their hands which, on an average of these years, exceeded 367,574 l. sterling per annum.

2. "That it appears by the returns before the House, that ten receivers-general were, on the 1st of Jan. 1820, in arrears at the time of their death, or of leaving their office, since 1790, to the amount of 304,337 l. 12 s. 4d.; of which amount a balance of 117,115 l. 1s. 8d. then remained due to the public, as stated in the annual finance account laid before this House in 1820.

3. "That the office of receiver-general of the land and assessed taxes is one of deposit, and for remittance of the taxes from district collection to the Exchequer; and I the present state of the finances of the country, that such service may be performed at a less charge to the public than is now incurred, with equal security against loss, and with equal efficiency to the public service.

4. "That there are 95 distributors of stamps in Great British, who received allowances or poundage amounting to 87,233 l. for the year ending 5th Jan. 1820, and 87,973 l. for the year ending 5th Jan. 1821; and also retained balances of cash in their hands, which, on an average of these years, exceeded 138,926 l. sterling.

5. "That in the present state of the finances of the country, the duty of distributors of stamps may be performed at a less charge to the public than is now incurred; with equal security against loss, and with equal efficiency to the public service"

The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he would move as an amendment, for the appointment of a select committee, to inquiry whether the object of the motion could be carried into effect consistently with the public interest. He would adopt the suggestion of such a committee,
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whatever might be their effect as to patronage; that was a consideration which he would put entirely out of the question. They would examine into the details of the plan of the hon. member, and see how far the arrangement he proposed could be carried into effect. He could not think that the existing system was worthy of such complete reprobation as the hon. member bestowed upon it but if on examination it should be found that defects existed in those establishments, he would not object to their removal. He could not, however, but be cautious in laying aside a system of collection which had been tried so long, and which had secured the public revenue with a degree of accuracy, which the hon. member was not aware of. Under this system for a period of 30 years, a sum of 337 millions of money had been collected, and the whole loss on that sum was but 13,750 l. He should now move, as an amendment, "That a select committee be appointed, to consider of the duties of the receivers-general of land and assessed taxes, and of the distributors of stamps, in Great Britain, and of the allowances made to the said receivers-general and distributors, and to report their observation there upon to the House".
Sir. J. Mackintoshsaid, that his hon. friend was entitled to the gratitude of the country, for the zeal and perseverance which marked his public conduct, and which rendered him one of the most useful members of that House. The perseverance of his hon. friend had obtained that concession from ministers which they had formerly refused to make. Besides, they had that night heard a lecture form the chancellor of the exchequer, on the propriety of retrenchment—on a total disregard to patronage—on purity and disinterestedness in public life, which would do honour to the exchequer of Utopia. With respect to the abuses of which his hon. friend complained, those abuses were too glaring not to be denounced by the committee. With respect to them, he considered inquiry and condemnation as synonymous. The concession which ministers had just made, would pretty clearly show the salutary effect of occasional majorities against them in that House. It showed how those majorities tended to liberalise their minds. It brought the language of economy to their lips—it induced them to consem to investigations, which they had formerly resisted with all

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their might. He trusted that this example would not be lost on those hon. members who were generally in the habit of supporting them. They would see that a measure beneficial to the country might be carried, without depriving ministers of their offices. This must afford some consolation to those who had frequently shown themselves so desirous of securing to them a perpetuity of power. The time certainly had been, when a government would have required support in all great measures of policy or taxation, as the condition of their carrying on the public affairs. The time had been, when if either foreign or domestic system, or any important part of it, were rejected by the House of commons, ministers would no longer retain either power or office. But the time of these proud constitutional distinctions had passed away: it was now found that an administration might continue to enjoy power after that confidence by which it could alone be justified, was withdrawn. He should not make any observations on the list of the committee, read by the right hon. gentlemen, further than to remark—which he did without invidiousness, or he hoped, indelicacy—that, with the exception of four or five names eminently qualified for the task, the list did not contain a fair representation of the different political views known to be entertained in that House. At the commencement the list promised extremely well; but the rear seemed to him to be in great need of reinforcements.
Lord Castlereaghobserved, that the hon. and learned gentleman seemed to become intoxicated with the majority in which he had found himself the night be fore than become a person of his experience and ability. He hoped the hon. and learned gentleman, now that he acted as the leader of a party, would not so easily be betrayed into these juvenile indiscretions. The exultation of the hon. and learned member was more worthy of a young beginner than of so grave and learned a personage. If he carried back his remembrance of Lansdown was chancellor of the exchequer, he would find that the administration of that day had received two hints similar to the one of last night, and in fuller House, without considering it their duty to resign. They received to a tax on iron, and the other
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with regard to private breweries, neither of which induced them to make a surrender of their offices. To use a common expression, he would advise the hon. and learned gentleman not to halloo before lie was out of the wood; for he was much mistaken if he supposed that the late division had induced the present concession. He could assure him, that ten days since, he (lord C.) had attended a meeting, at which it was agreed to refer the subject to a committee, without reference to any patronage whatever.
Lord A. Hamiltonexpressed his ac knowledgments to the hon. mover, for his unwearied exertions in promoting re trenchment and economy, at a time when the public interests so imperiously called for them.
Mr. S. Wortleyconfirmed the statement of his noble friend, as to his attending a meeting at which he had pledged himself to consent to the appointment of a fair committee.
After some further conversation, as to the appointment of the committee, a committee consisting of the following members was agreed to, with which Mr. Hume expressed himself perfectly satisfied: viz. Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Hume, Mr. Solicitor General, Mr. Bankes, Mr. Grenfell, Mr. W. Smith, Mr. W. Wynn, Mr. Macdonald, sir C. Long, Mr. Holford, Mr. W. Courtenay, sir T. Ackland, Mr. Brandling, Mr. Tremayne, Mr. E. Wodehouse, Mr, Chetwynd, sir H. Parnell, Mr. R.Smith (of Lincoln), Mr. N. Calvert, Mr. W. Whitmore, and lord Binning.