Sitting of 12 March 1821

ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.
Mr. Butterworth,on presenting a Petition against the Claims of the Catholics, from the parish of St. Dunstan's, London, said, that having been unable to attend the late debates upon this subject, he would briefly mention some of his reasons for concurring with the present petition. With all possible respect for the motives of those who supported the resolutions, he conceived them to be grounded on mistaken principles. It was not because Roman Catholics held the doctrines of transubstantiation, the adoration of the Virgin Mary, and the sacrifice of the mass, &c. that our ancestors excluded them from high offices and seats in parliament; but on account of! their intolerant spirit in civil and religious

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affairs, and their dangerous acknowledgment of a foreign supreme jurisdiction over this country. The oaths and declarations were a mere test to ascertain who were Roman Catholics. Although this was not a subject of clamour out of doors, yet it would be much more lastingly felt than the evanescent politics of the day. If the bills now before the House should pass into law, they would transfer discontent from Ireland to the Protestant population of this country, as well as afford great dissatisfaction to the Protestants there. He entertained no fear for the stability of the Protestant religion, even if it were separated From the state, because he believed it to be founded upon the principles of eternal truth; but as the Protestant church and the state were in this country united, he should deeply lament if what God, by his providence, had joined together, should, by the adoption of the measures now before parliament, be put asunder. But if Roman Catholics were to change their intolerant principles, and renounce the supremacy of the pope, he, for one, should have no objection to their possessing political power, notwithstanding the peculiar doctrines of their church. The spirit of that church was, however, evident, from various documents issued by the present pope. He should only instance one, viz. the instructions of that pontiff to his nuncio at Vienna, in 1805, in which he maintains the pretended right of deposing heretical princes, and deplores the misfortunes of those times, which, as he says, prevent the spouse of Jesus' Christ (the church) from putting those holy maxims into practice, and constrain her to suspend the course of her just severities against the enemies of the faith. The petition alluded to the Jesuits' college established in Lancashire. That order had been revived by the present pope, although it had been found so dangerous to the peace and well-being of society, that it had been put down by the common consent of all the courts of Europe. He conceived that Roman Catholics, if they possessed political power, never would consent to pay tithes in support of a Protestant ministry, which they considered as belonging to an heretical church. As tithes were before the Reformation in the hands of the Roman Catholics themselves, and had been looked upon by them as the patrimony of St. Peter, they could not, in their opinion, be alienated by any tem-
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poral authority, nor become property of a Protestant church. He, therefore, thought that a general commutation for tithes should at least precede any concession of the Roman Catholic claims; but as a sincere friend to civil and religious liberty, he must confess himself opposed to the admission of Roman Catholics to political power.
Ordered to lie en the table.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
Mr. Humestated, that he had on a former night submitted certain resolutions to the House, but the forms of the House prevented them from being entered on the Journals, and he was anxious that his opinion on this subject should be put upon record. He would therefore offer them now, without any further observation than that they contained only matters of fact, and pledged the House to no immediate extent of reduction, but only to the general principle of economy. He would move, "That there were in the service of Great Britain and Ireland in 1792 (exclusive of the regular cavalry and infantry) 25,757 troops; namely, 3,730 of royal artillery, 4,425 of the royal marines, and 17,602 of disembodied militia; and in 1821 (exclusive of regular cavalry and infantry) the number of 125,492 troops; namely, 7,872 engineers and artillery, 8,000 royal marines, 51,998 disembodied militia, and 57,622 yeomanry cavalry and volunteer infantry, being in number a larger force by 132,367 men, available for purposes of government in the year 1821, than the government had in 1792; that the supplies for the expense of the military establishment of Great Britain and Ireland in 1792 were 2,331,149 l.; that the supplies voted for the military establishment of Great Britain and Ireland for 1820 were 9,500,216 l.; that the army estimates for 1821, now submitted to the House, are only 163,498 l. less than those of 1820: and that it is the opinion of this House, that under the present circumstances of the country, it is expedient to adopt measures to effect a large reduction in the number and expenditure of its military establishments, and to approximate as near as possible to the establishment of 1792, as recommended by the finance committee of 1817."
Lord Castlereagh,before he gave his vote upon the question, wished to know what was the object of the hon. member in submitting his resolution to the House.

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If it was merely for the purpose of having his opinion inserted on the journals, there would be no difficulty in acceding to it. But if it went to pledge the House to any extensive reduction upon the estimates about to be proposed, then he thought that it ought not to be acceded to, until those estimates were before the House. In the committee, the different heads of the estimates might be objected to. But he submitted, that the natural course was first to hear those estimates and then object to them.
Mr. Humewished the noble lord to consider, that he moved this resolution in the way of an instruction to the committee, or as a principle laid down upon which the committee should act. And of what use could such a resolution be, after the committee was appointed? The noble secretary at war ought to assign a reason why his proposition should not be adopted; and if he could assign no reason, the House ought to adopt it.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, it was not his intention to go at any length into the argument of the hon. member, because it would be improper to enter into a discussion of it before the consideration of the army estimates. With respect to any reductions which it might be proper to make in them, the proper time for proposing them would be in the committee of supply; and as to the hon. gentleman's resolutions of fact, he must assert that that name could not be truly given to them. In summing up the number of men employed in 1792, he had summed up 3,200 men twice over. In the resolution now proposed, he had stated the number of troops in service, exclusive of the regular cavalry and infantry, to be 25,757, in which he included 17,602 of disembodied militia. Now, he had not included in his list 19,000 militia-men, who were afterwards embodied. The hon. member had likewise said that in 1821 the force available to government was greater by 132,367 men than it was in 1792; but if he would cast up his own totals, he would discover that the difference did not amount by some thousands to the numbers which he had mentioned. The hon. member was not more exact as to his money accounts. He had excluded from them all the charges for the disembodied militia, and was wrong in certain items, which the noble lord proceeded to point out. Thus he was incorrect both in his historical and arithmetical facts. He recollected that he
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had heard of an ancient sage who said that there were two things over which even the immortal gods themselves had no power—namely, past events and arithmetic. The hon. gentleman however, seemed to have power over both, as he changed them just as suited his convenience. He had often heard that a little learning was a dangerous thing; he was afraid the hon. member had found it so on the present occasion; and he really should advise him to drink more largely before he again ventured to discuss matters of this nature. He had heard that the hon. member was the chairman of a self-constituted committee of finance. The resolutions which the hon. member had just moved were, he was told, the production of that body; and he was, perhaps, too severe in attributing the blunders of them to the hon. member himself. He was likewise informed that this committee had an establishment of clerks. Now he gave the hon. member fair notice, that if the discussions on these estimates were to be continued by him arid his friends, as was threatened, during 21 days, he should certainly move for a return of the salaries paid to these clerks, in order to ascertain whether their salaries were greater than their attention and ability deserved. He would now move the previous question.
Mr. Humerose to explain. With regard to the blunder which he was said to have committed in reckoning the number of troops employed in 1792 at 48,474 men instead of 45,274 men, he had told the noble lord that he had taken the full estimates of the year, though he knew that the number of effective men was not so great as was stated therein. It was therefore too much for the noble lord to charge him with inaccuracy upon that point. As to the number of irregular troops for the year 1821, which he had calculated at 125,492 men, he must likewise say that if the noble lord would add up the items, he would find the difference between the numbers employed in 1792 and 1821 to be what he had stated. He likewise maintained that he had correctly stated the number of militia embodied in 1792; and that the money accounts to which he had referred, were to be found in the 47th volume of their journals, just as he had inserted them in his resolutions. With regard to another observation of the noble secretary, he begged leave to assert that he had drawn up the resolutions himself, and had afterwards submitted them

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to the inspection of two or three of his private friends. As to any establishment of clerks, he could only say that he wished the noble secretary would transact the duties of his office with the same attention to economy. He had no clerks to 3ssist him in making out the items of his resolutions; but he had no doubt that if he wanted them he could find many persons who would act as volunteers in that capacity.
The previous question being put, "That the question be now put," the House divided: Ayes 74; Noes 98; majority against Mr. Hume's resolution, 24.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply, to which the army estimates were referred,
Lord Palmerstonproceeded to open the estimates for the military service of the ensuing year. He began by observing that it was not his intention to trespass on the attention of the House, further than to draw a general outline of the proposed service. There were two principal points which offered themselves as characteristic of the estimates which he was now about to unfold, and these were a reduction of establishments and a diminution of expense. Wherever an increase of expense appeared on some particular head, it was to be ascribed to the operation of some fixed and certain rule laid down by parliament itself, and entirely withdrawn from the control of the executive government. He should endeavour to explain to the committee the mode in which these reductions had been brought about, and the principles observed in accomplishing them. One of the chief branches of our military force to which the operation had been applied was that known by the name of veteran battalions, a force raised at a period when the country was threatened with imminent danger, and which the government therefore stood pledged to lay down whenever the altered state of the country should permit them to do so. It would be found that government had been faithful to its pledge. As compared with the force and military expenditure of last year, the estimates would discover a reduction of upwards of 9,000 men, and a saving of 145,000 l. If they referred to the year previous to the last, when the reduction of the veteran battalions chiefly inland commenced, the entire saving would appear to be not less than 374,000 l. A sum of 50,000 l. had been saved by adopting a suggestion
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of the hon. member for Corfe-Castle, to whom the House and the public were indebted for many similar improvements, the suggestion being to apply the pay of the non-effective men to miscellaneous services. On the staff there was a diminution of 7,000 l. arising from a reduction of two majors-general and of a lieutenant-general in Ireland. There were other retrenchments amounting to l7,000 l. to which was to be set in opposition an increased charge on some of the volunteer corps of 19,000 l.; the whole presenting, upon the heads just enumerated, a total diminution of 367,000 l.
The next subject of estimate was India. On the establishment of the military college there would appear a decrease of 2,700 l. which, together with the reduced allowances of general officers on the superannuation list, would form a sum of 4,500 l. The garrison service would be found to afford a saving of 175,000 l. The charge for supernumerary officers was 40,000 l. exhibiting an increase produced or rendered necessary by some of the reductions. On the foreign half-pay there was a decrease of 4,046 l. and at Chelsea and Kilmainham, there was a diminution of 1,369 l. at the former place, and of something above that sum at the latter. At the royal military asylum the reduction was 3,200 l. and the charge for widows' pensions was increased to 6,000 l., a charge rendered higher than it would otherwise have been by the new regulation, allowing them to retain their pensions, after they had again married. There were other small sums, such as 676 l. saving, under the head of expenditure, for adjutants of local militia, &c. but the whole account, as compared with that of the last year, whilst it presented an increased charge on some branches of 123,000 l., left, as he had before stated, a result on the present estimates of 9,800 men reduced, and a curtailed expenditure of 145,000 l. This, however, it was true, formed but one part of our military service, and he was perfectly disposed to state at once to the committee all the military votes which it was in his contemplation to bring forward. The hon. member for Abingdon (Mr. Maberly) had, a few nights since, recommended that the army estimates should be brought within the line drawn by the finance committee of 1817. That committee had then calculated the expenditure at 8,500,000 l. exclusive of the disemboided militia, the

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charge of which they thought might be met by savings in other quarters. It included, however, the Barrack and Commissariat departments; and in their report 11,000 l. was allowed for the expenses incidental to the return of our army from France. Adding to this, 269,000 l. for the service of the Ordnance, the whole charge with the exception of the permanent staff, according to the calculations of the committee, amounted to 8,760,000 l. Now for the ordinary service of the ensuing year he should propose a sum of 6,643,968 l., and for the extraordinaries 1,200,000 l., for the Commissariat 551,569 l. and for the Barrack department 237,500 l. There would likewise be a charge of 90,000 l. for training militia, being less than the charges under these heads of the last year by the sum of 266,000 l. If, therefore, they were not yet brought within the limit recommended by the finance committee in 1817, a comparison of them separately with the same branches of expense in former years would exhibit a reduction of 144,919 l. in the extraordinaries; 200,000 l. in the Ordnance; 74,000 l. in the Commissariat; 117,000 l. in the Barrack department, and 50,000 l. voted last year, and not applied, for clothing the Irish yeomanry. The sum of 80,000 l. voted last, year, for the formation of veteran battalions, and of 40,000 l. for training the disembodied militia, would be likewise saved in the present. The whole, as compared with the expenditure of the preceding year, would form a reduction of 707,000 l.
And here he would have sat down, had it not been for what had fallen from the hon. member for Abingdon on a former evening. The hon. gentleman had referred to the year 1792 as the standard by which the military force necessary for the present year ought to be measured, Now he must utterly reject the establishment of 1792 as forming a fair ground of comparison with the establishment of the present year. The hon. gentleman did not advance a single step towards establishing his proposition, unless he could first show that the circumstances of the country at present, were the same as those of 1792. Now, he called on the committee to look first at the internal situation of the country at the present moment—he did not mean in a civil but in a military sense. Let them recollect how many public works had been constructed during
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the war, which it was necessary to maintain and protect, otherwise their dilapidation would expose the country to the much greater expense of repairs. There had been a great accumulation of military stores and depots, which it was necessary to guard. If the committee looked at the external condition of the country, it would immediately remark that, since the year 1792, there had been an increase of our colonial possessions, which rendered it impossible that the military establishment of that period should be adequate for the demands of the present. In 1792, the number voted for the army, for Great Britain and Ireland, including officers, was 48,474. Such was the number voted. But he must farther state, that that was not the number of men actually in service. The number was never reduced so low. By the official returns, it appeared that there were about 1,600 more than that estimate. Comparing, therefore, the number in 1792, with 81,106, the number at present, there was an excess at present of about 37,000, officers included. Of those, 15,299 were employed in the new colonies, viz. the Leeward Islands, Malta, the Ionian Isles, the Cape of Good Hope, the Settlements on the Coast of Africa, the Mauritius, St. Helena, and the Island of Ceylon. The committee would see that among those colonies were some of the most valuable possessions attached to the British dominions—possessions for the acquisition of which the greatest sacrifices had been made, both of men and of money—possessions which it was of the utmost importance to this country, whether in a military, in a political, or in a commercial view, to preserve. When, therefore, he stated that 15,000 men was the force assigned to garrison these valuable possessions, he was persuaded that the committee would not think it too much. He should mislead the committee if they were to understand him as considering that force by any means adequate to the defence of the colonies in question in time of war. It was only a force that was consistent with the principle which, in time of peace, ought to regulate the garrisoning of such possessions, namely, adequately to defend them from sudden surprise, in the event of an unexpected renewal of hostilities. For such a purpose, the force he had mentioned was certainly not too large. It was upon this system of precautionary defence that an addition of 2,614 men had been

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made to the force stationed in the old colonies, Gibraltar, Canada, Nova Scotia, Jamaica, the old Leeward Islands, and New South Wales. The latter settlement had been greatly extended since the year 1792. Van Diemen's Land was annexed to it, and the population was receiving continual additions of a nature extremely difficult to govern. In Canada, too, large tracts of territory had been cleared, and many vast forests had been brought into cultivation. Our frontier had been stretched out to a degree which necessarily called for an addition to the military strength by which it was defended. There would then remain for the service of Great Britain and Ireland, together with the islands in the Channel, an excess of 19,516 men, of which 8,826 were stationed in Ireland. It was not his intention to enter into any argument to justify this latter distribution of our military force, but he should leave it entirely in the hands of his right lion, friend the chief secretary for that country. For Great Britain and the islands in the Channel the increased force would then appear to be 10,839 men; and in looking at this excess above the establishment of 1792, he would beg to recall to the recollection of the committee, that in the course of the war our arsenals had been greatly extended, that our depots, stores and works had been enlarged and multiplied, and must be exposed to various injuries if not adequately protected. Amongst these he might mention Portsmouth, Plymouth, Chatham, Heligoland, Hull, Weedon, Jersey, Guernsey, besides many detached works, Dover, Teignmouth, and Berwick, from which the garrisons were now withdrawn. On these stations 5,018 men were employed beyond the number in 1792; and to this was to be added 1,000 commissioned and non-commissioned officers, leaving an excess to be still accounted for of 4,833 men. If from this they deducted the 1,600 men whom he had shown to have been kept in pay in 1792 over and above the establishment, as stated on the Journals, the increase of disposable force would not exceed 3,469 men.
Now he must remind the committee, that in the course of the war a very material alteration took place with regard to the organization of our regimental establishments. The men could not be transferred, as formerly, from one regiment to another without their own con-
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sent. The only mode of affording relief to foreign stations was now by sending out whole regiments and bringing them home in the same manner. Whilst these removals and transfers were in progress, it was obvious that defalcations must occur at home, and not only during the interval, but by the exchange of perfect for imperfect regiments. The number of noneffectives fell much more heavily on the home than on the colonial service. The whole number abroad was 32,476, which, together with 19,889 in India, constituted an aggregate force of upwards of 50,000 men. It would not, he should conceive, be maintained, that any regiment should be kept abroad for a longer term than ten years; and in order to observe this rule, it would be necessary to send out annually reliefs to the amount of 5,200 men. This, however, we had not the means of doing; and if they deducted 1,500 men as the average of non-effectives, the surplus disposeable force would be only 3,200. Taking all these circumstances into consideration, it must, he thought, be manifest, that our present establishment was not too large for the exigencies of the country.—But the organization of the regiments was another important topic; and he would beg leave to submit one or two remarks on the question, whether it would be advisable to distribute our military force into a greater number of distinct corps or regiments. There were three principles to which, in time of peace, it seemed to him of importance to adhere, in the constitution and division of a military force. The first was, that the establishment should be economical; the next, that it should be efficient; and the third, that its organization should, in the event of war recurring, be such as to enable them to recruit the different regiments rapidly and cheaply. In 1792, the regimental establishments were very low. The hon. gentleman had argued as if 800 was more economical than 400 for the reduced scale. He had already said, that there were three points to be attended to, economy, efficiency, and capacity of sudden augmentation. The establishment of 1792 was bad in these respects; and when the war took place, it became necessary to break up many of the regiments, and to make up new corps out of the fragments of the old ones. The whole presented a disconnected mass, and the recovery of some regiments was altogether hopeless. When a

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very small corps was recruited, so as to arrive at its complement, its character partook of the main ingredient, and it became, to all active purposes, a new regiment. Very large corps, on the other hand, as they admitted but of a small augmentation, created the necessity of forming other corps entirely new. It had been considered, therefore, that the number of 650 was that which would avoid either extreme, and combine in the highest degree the essential qualities to which he had alluded. In the present reduced state of our regiments, 34,000 men might be added to them, in order to place them on a full establishment. This, too, might be carried into effect by the simple process of adding one lieutenant to every troop of cavalry and to every company of infantry. The saving which would arise from this practice, as compared with any other mode of recruiting hitherto tried, would probably amount to 300,000 l. upon the additional force which he had named. Such a plan did not therefore, in his opinion, merit the censure which had been cast upon it. With respect to the corps of life-guards and foot-guards being placed on a higher establishment, as compared with other regiments of cavalry or the line, and as compared with their state in 1792, the augmentation had taken place on the same principle; and the only question relative to them now was, whether it was advantageous to have any corps placed on a footing superior in point of rank and pay to others. He did not know that this advantage was denied, or that any inconvenience had been ever shown to attend it. Whether by their gallantry abroad, or their temper and moderation at home, the present regiments of guards had clone any thing to forfeit their ancient claims to respect and distinction, he should willingly leave to the committee to decide. There had, however, been no great increase of this species of force in London. In 1792, the life guards and foot guards together amounted to 4,225 men stationed in the metropolis, and they at present amounted to 4,449. The regiments remained the same, and a very minute return had lately been made, which, if examined with relation to all the existing circumstances, must satisfy every hon. member that no unnecessary addition had been made.
The hon. gentleman had talked of 7,000,000 l. as the aggregate expense of the service for the present year. The
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whole would amount to 8,792,000 l.; but from this were to be made large deductions for the militia, the charges for half-pay, &c. The cost of the actual establishment would be 5,300,000 l.; and with regard to the practicability of reducing this charge, he apprehended that the pay of the soldier would scarcely be considered as excessive: although the price of corn and agricultural produce had fallen, the fall did not always manifest itself in the prices of bread and meat, nor was any material difference to be discovered in the cost of clothing. If they referred to the situation of the officers, they would soon hear of cases in which the pay was found inadequate to expenses which it was impossible to avoid. If, therefore, there was not an overruling propriety or necessity for reducing their pay and allowances, the committee would not select, for such a reduction, a period following a war in which their heroic devotion had rescued the country from a state of peril such as it was never before exposed to. At such a time it would be ungracious, to say the least of it, to entertain a proposition of this nature. The hon. gentleman had stated on the former night that the staff in 1792 cost only 6,872 l., but, according to the present rate of pay, it would amount to about 18,000 l. for the same number of officers. With regard to the foreign staff, which, he said, in 1792, cost 19,000 l., he was quite mistaken. In 1802, the foreign staff, cost 74,000 l.; but the hon. gentleman had by an error taken his assertions from the estimates of Dec. 1802, which of course applied to the succeeding year.
Mr. Humesaid, that he had compared the estimates of December, 1792, with the estimates of Dec. 1802.
Lord Palmerston.If so, it only showed that the hon. gentleman was wrong in both cases. But although the estimate of 1803 was made out as low as had been mentioned, yet it never had been carried into effect; for the war breaking out, the reduction proposed was found impracticable. Unless, then, the House was prepared to say, that the country must go back to the military system, or rather no system, of 1792, it was nothing for the hon. gentleman to get up and assert that such and such was the expense of the staff at that date. No man, competently informed, would really wish to see the army reduced to the state it held in 1792. Some persons might think we ought to have no army at all:

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that was a clear and intelligible proposition; but to say that the army should be no more efficient now, than it was in 1792, seemed to show an almost total ignorance of its then condition. In 1792 there was no staff in England; two or three review generals were sent round twice a year to inspect the state of the regiments, and that was all. Besides, it would have been impossible then to have obtained the minute returns at present daily moved for.
Next, the hon. gentleman had contended, that the colonies ought to pay the expense of the army employed in them; but this part of the subject might be left very safely to the answer given on the former night by the under secretary for the colonial department. It was not to be denied, that in what were called the; public departments, there had been a considerable increase since 1792; but the, House would not forget, that though that increase had taken place, a great reduction had also been effected since the termination of the war. Comparing 1814 with the present year, the reduction was hot less than 80,000 l. Here again he would say, that it amounted to nothing to assert that in 1792 the public departments only cost the nation a much less sum than at present. The whole business was now done in a very different manner: it was now done with a minuteness and regularity of detail that almost prevented the possibility of a misapplication of the public money. This change had been the result of the laborious exertions of this House. As to his own department in 1792, there were no paymasters and no clerks, because there were no accounts to be examined; but, judging from the result, the present system was attended with a real and practical economy. For instance, the hon. gentleman had complained of the arrear accounts, and had talked of the gross injustice of compelling a man to refund, because for five years he had been able to keep the public money in his hands. Such a doctrine must have been little expected from an economist and a reformer.
Mr. Humeobserved, that the time he had mentioned was not 5, but 15 or 20 years.
Lord Palmerstonwas ready to take it so, but still it was a monstrous proposition whether taken at 5, 15, or even 25 years. At the same time, the secretary at war was invested with a discretion on the sub-
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ject; and where no improper motives existed, and where a very long time had elapsed, the successor was not always called upon to make good the deficiencies of his predecessor. He had always exercised this discretion to the best of his ability. The hon. gentleman did not seem to be aware that in this very arrear department, of which he so much complained, no less than 110,000 l. had been recovered to the country in two years—a sum, in round numbers, equal to the whole expense of the War-office for that period. As to the superannuation and retired allowances, and the assertion that they were much too extravagant, the House would probably be of opinion that a degree of liberality ought to be shown in them. If a man had spent 20, 30, or 40 years in the public service; if he had spent his best years and applied his best faculties in his duties, he ought not to be turned off without the means of subsistence at a time of life when perhaps he could not devote his faculties to any profitable employment. With regard to the illustrious individual at the head of the military affairs of the kingdom, he had made it the whole business of his life to direct his personal exertion and his best understanding to the good of the army which he had the honour to command, and thus indulged the noblest ambition of the human mind. It was to the conduct of that illustrious personage that the country owed the present admirable state of the army; and without that conduct, not even the bravery or the genius of a Wellington would have been able to have placed this country on the proud eminence upon which she now stood. The noble lord then moved,
1. "That a number of land forces, not exceeding 81,468 men, and also 11,794 men, proposed to be disbanded in year 1821 (exclusive of the men belonging to the regiments employed in the territorial possessions of the East India company), commissioned and non-commissioned officers included, be maintained, for the service of the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from 25th Dec. 1820 to 24th Dec. 1821."
Colonel Daviessaid, that although the particular details given on a former night by his hon. friend (Mr. Hume) might in particular instances be incorrect, they were perfectly true in substance. It was not his intention to follow the noble lord

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through all his voluminous statements, but should confine himself to a few general observations, and should then conclude by moving, that the chairman should report progress and ask leave to sit again, in order that time might be given For the appointment of a committee up stairs to consider the propriety of generally reducing our military establishment. In this motion he could assure the House he had no wish to impede the public business; his sole object was to obtain a committee for the examination of the present abuses. As the noble lord on one side asserted that further reduction could not be made with safety; as he (colonel D.) asserted on the other, that a reduction could be safely made; and the only mode of ascertaining the fact, was the appointment of a committee which should have the power of sifting the subject to the bottom. The noble lord, in comparing the estimates of the present year with the last, had taken great credit for the proposed reduction; but it should be recollected that in the last year the country was—or at least was stated to be—in a state of civil disturbance. A comparison, therefore, with the last year was unfair: and if the comparison were carried back to the year 1819, it would be found, that so far from there being a reduction, there was an increase in the military expenditure of 50,572 l. Was this what the noble lord had called a reduction? Was this all the country might reasonably look for in the seventh year of peace? Did not this demand some inquiry? He recollected that when this enormous expenditure was called for on a former occasion, it was said to be merely temporary. But be that as it might, he was prepared to show, that a considerable reduction might be made, without at all endangering our domestic safety, or our foreign possessions. But if, unfortunately, the House should be of opinion, that the unprecedented peace establishment of 100,000 men was not too much, then he should be prepared to show that this establishment might be maintained at an expense much smaller than the present estimate. Upon the first part of his proposition, he scarcely hoped to be able to convince the House; but if he should succeed in obtaining an inquiry, it would be as much as for the present he should expect. There could, he thought, be no ground whatever for maintaining so large
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a military force upon the plea of public disaffection. It was impossible for any people to bear their unparalleled distresses with more exemplary patience than the people of this country had done; and it should not be forgotten that in the course of the late proceedings in another place, they had had every excitement to disaffection, had they been at all predisposed for it.—The hon. member proceeded to a comparison of our present military force with that of the year 1787, when we were opposed to the powerful navies of almost every maritime country of Europe. He thought, that the establishment of Saint Helena, consisting of upwards of 1,200 men, was considerably too large. He did not forget that we had there confined a very extraordinary personage, and that more than usual vigilance was necessary to secure him; but still, considering the natural strength of the island, he thought the military force too large. He had the authority of the under secretary of state for saying that a larger number of troops were kept in the Ionian islands than were necessary. He then adverted to the military force in India, and particularly the cavalry branch of it. He strongly recommended a reduction of the force in that quarter of the world; and also suggested, that by diminishing the number of foreign garrison troops, a corresponding reduction might take place in the depots at home. Upon the necessity of reducing the cavalry, he retained precisely the same sentiments he had expressed last year. He had indeed heard it said, that regiments could be supported on cheaper terms in the islands abroad than they could be at home. But was it not the cheapest, the wisest, and the most constitutional mode to disband altogether regiments for which there was no employment and no necessity? Observing upon the state of the army at home, the hon. member next adverted to the waggon train, a corps which, however serviceable in war, was, he observed, totally useless in time of peace. By a reduction of this corps a saving of 10,000 l. a year might be made, making at the same time ample allowance for pensions and retired officers. The hon. member here entered into a calculation of the charge incurred by the travelling of the waggon train, which he observed was an enormous and at the same time a useless expense to the country. Supposing every regi-

1201
ment of cavalry to march a hundred miles in the year, the expense of transporting the forage-carts by the waggon train would cost 4l. per mile. His object was to reduce the numbers, not the allowances, of the officers and men. The noble lord had particularly urged the advantage which the country would derive from a saving of 145,000 l. a year by the reduction of the veteran battalions. Now he thought that reduction insufficient. By the plan which he would recommend, of reducing two companies m each regiment, still leaving quite enough for the public service, a reduction of 15 battalions would in effect take place, and a saving of 375,000 l. a year, after making all the necessary provision and half pay for the reduced parties. He should also take an opportunity of moving in the committee that an address be presented to his majesty, praying that he would be pleased to employ, as the service might require, such persons as were enjoying half-pay, in preference to granting new commissions. By adopting that course, a still further saving would be effected, besides doing full justice to the claims of those who had already served their country. He then showed, by a comparison of the number of cavalry commissions granted to persons from the Military College last year with the number of other officers put on half-pay, the saving to which the arrangement he proposed must necessarily tend.—The next department for which he thought needless expense was incurred, was the riding establishment at Pimlico, which cost 3,500 l. a year. In his opinion, it would be much better, instead of bringing persons from Scotland and Ireland to that establishment, to revert to the order of 1819, and have the business done by persons on the spot with their respective arrangements.—Respecting the paymaster-general's department, he entertained exactly the same opinion he had expressed in the course of last year. In 1797, according to the 19th report of the commission of finance, the whole expense of that department was 9,340 l. a year. At present, salaries alone amounted to 21,000 l. a year, making an addition of 12,000 l. a year, The whole expense of the public departments in the Secretary at War's-office was, in 1792, 45,245 l., it now amounted to 133,074 l. The salaries bore their full share of augmentation; for in 1792, the
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salaries amounted only to 16,070 l.; in 1806, they amounted to 29,970 l. while in 1820 they were 47,819 l. The same uncalled-for augmentation at this period was observable in the office of the Comptroller of army accounts, the expenditure of which amounted to upwards of 12,000 l. a year. According to the 19th finance report, the extraordinaries in every part of the globe amounted to 6,000,000 l., the accounts of which necessarily passed through the Comptroller's-office. Now, these foreign extraordinaries did not amount to 1,000,000 l.; and he thought it obviously followed, that as the trouble in the office became so much the less, the establishment ought to incur a proportionate reduction. At the former period to which he had alluded, when the business was so much greater, there were 2 comptrollers, at 1,000 l. a year each, and 11 assistants. The expense then was 4,470 l. a year. There were now, when the business must necessarily be less, 3 comptrollers of army accounts, and the expenditure for the office exceeded 12,000 l. a year. He called upon his majesty's government to show what necessity there existed for this increased expenditure in a department where the business was so much diminished. But, what he particularly begged the committee to bear in mind was this—that although he pointed to the reductions he had named as practicable for the public service, and essential for the general interests of the country, yet he did not mean to call upon the House to adopt them at once upon his mere statement. All he asked of them was, to go into an inquiry: he merely desired that they would allow his suggestions to be fairly considered in a committee, impartially chosen from all sides of the House. This committee he thought ought not to be opposed. It was due by ministers to the petitions of the people, and they at least ought to be the last to oppose a committee formed for such a purpose, and composed of persons fairly selected from the ministerial and opposition sides of the House, together with some of the gentlemen who were considered independent of both. In such a committee, it would be seen whether his proposals for reduction were fair and practicable or not; and it appeared to him that the noble lord, and those who supported him, ought to be the most anxious of all for the appointment of such

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a committee. If he was wrong, all his propositions would necessarily fall to the ground; and the result would be so honourable to the ministers, that he really thought they could not oppose the appointment of this committee. The hon. member concluded by moving as an amendment, "That the chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again."
Mr. G. Dawsonfelt anxious to record the reasons which induced him to entertain the opinion which he was about to state to the House, and which would prove to gentlemen opposite, that it was possible to support the general policy of ministers, and yet to be friendly to economy. During the five years in which he had had the honour of sitting in that House, he had, with very few exceptions, supported the measures of ministers, from a conscientious conviction that they were the best that could be adopted for preserving the peace and security of the country. He, however, differed from them on the subject of our military establishment. At a period, when distress faith stared them in the face, it would be practising worse than a delusion to deny that economy, in the strictest sense of the word, was not imperatively necessary. Not only did he conceive economy necessary, but he would say, that the most rigid parsimony alone could save the country. He for one thought the sum of 6,643,968 l. too great a sum to be lavished on the support of the army. Of all the items of public expenditure, that for the support of the army, to its present extent, could be best dispensed with. In comparing the estimates of the present with the last year, it was urged that there was a saving this year of 163,498 l. Now, it appeared to him impossible that the country could go on under such an enormous expenditure. Economy must begin somewhere, and in no quarter could it be better practised than in the military department. Where was the necessity of keeping up a force of 20,778 men in Ireland? He maintained, that a considerable portion of that force might with the greatest safety be reduced. He did not believe that that country was ever in a more perfect state of tranquillity than at present. But even if a spirit of disturbance were to manifest itself, the government possessed the power of checking it by a much more constitutional force, the police. In addition to the police, the yeomanry of the country might be called
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upon, if necessary; and this was a force which could be maintained at a much smaller expense than a regular army. What then was the reason why such a force was kept up? Did they dread going to war? No; it was a delusion to suppose so; but if we were forced to go to war, he trusted that we should rely upon our naval power, and not indulge in those continental struggles which had already cost the nation so much. The House had heard much of the distresses of the country. The petition from Birmingham showed the depressed state of trade in that quarter; the iron works of Staffordshire were at a stand still; the cotton trade, the staple article of this country, was reduced to the lowest ebb; the leather trade, and, in short, all branches of our industry were equally depressed. At such a period, however, he had heard, and with considerable alarm, a proposition to interfere with the public creditor. He for one would suffer the greatest privations rather than allow a breach of the public One hon. member had pointed out the national debt as the great monster of consumption. In another quarter a noble earl had quoted the ancient law maxim, "nemo tenetur ad impossible." Such doctrines would, he feared, have the effect of producing out of doors a hostile feeling, and of plunging the country into all the horrors of a civil contest. Nothing, he conceived, but the most rigid economy could remove the pressure under which the country suffered. A large military force he considered a useless burthen; and though he was not prepared to accede to the motion of the hon. officer, still he was ready to record his opinion, that, on the whole, the estimates ought to be some millions less than they were.
Mr. J. Macdonaldsaid, he had come down to the House strongly impressed with the arguments urged on a former evening by the hon. member for Aberdeen. Those impressions had not been at all weakened by any thing which he had heard since he entered the House. Indeed it was painful to come down and listen to the plausible but empty apologies which were annually made for keeping up the expenditure of the country. The noble lord had stated, with much self-gratulation, that the estimates of this year fell short of last year's charge by 145,000 l. But the noble lord did not state the charge as compared with the years 1818 and 1819,

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compared with which there was a considerable excess this year. There was, however, one part of the noble lord's speech which he hailed with pleasure—that was his comparison of the present estimates with those of 1792? A few years ago the noble lord had observed, that we might as well go back to the Saxon Heptarchy as refer to the estimates of 1792. The noble lord, asked, if they were prepared to go back at once to the estimates of 1792? He answered, no—all that was asked for was, that the estimates of 1792 should not be lost sight of, and that we should gradually, but steadily, approximate to the establishment of that period. The advance in the pay of artisans and mechanics since 1792 had been at the rate of from five to four, while the pay of the soldiery had been from about two to one; and he saw no reason why, upon principles of equity, and considering the circumstances of the country, the pay of the latter should not return to its former standard, especially recollecting that the advance of the soldiers' pay had taken place in a depreciated medium, which had now recovered its nominal value. With respect to the means of defending our colonies, he did not think it material to that defence to augment our military force, those colonies being always perfectly secure while we retained our naval power, through which power, indeed, we were uniformly enabled, without much difficulty, to repossess ourselves of those colonies, if they happened to be wrested from us.—Did the noble lord see no danger in draining the revenues of this country for the maintenance of its colonies? He was as ready as any man to admit the advantages which Great Britain had derived from its colonies; but, on the other hand, it was to be recollected, that those colonies were protected by the power, while they were exempted from the mass of taxation which oppressed the mother country. It was observed, and especially by foreigners, that the first thing done by the government of this country upon taking possession of any colony, was to exalt it to the rank of an empire, as was the case at the Cape of Good Hope, where a salary of no less than 12,000 l. a year was granted to its governor. But the expensive system pursued with regard to our colonies of late years, was sufficiently illustrated by the fact, that the expense of our new colonies was more than that incurred for
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the maintenance of all our old colonies previous to the war. Whence this extraordinary increase? As civilization, and all its train of knowledge had so much advanced, it was naturally to be expected that the colonies would have been better enabled to defend themselves—or at least that they would have required Jess aid from the mother country. As to Malta and the Ionian islands, he should have thought, that a comparatively reduced force would have been sufficient, either for the preservation of their internal tranquillity, or the security of their external defence, from the facility with which any requisite supply could be had from Gibraltar.—The only remaining branch of our military force referred to by the noble lord, upon which he thought it necessary to animadvert, was that with respect to our domestic establishment. But he must say at the outset, that he felt some difficulty in approaching this part of the subject, from a consideration of the circumstances in which the country was placed. It was quite surprising, in his view, that it should be proposed to keep up such an enormous amount of regular army in the seventh year of peace, especially considering the number of yeomanry, volunteers, and militia, which could with so much ease and expedition be called into effective activity. If government meant to pursue the offensive, irritating system, upon which it had acted for some years, he fully believed that five times this amount of force would not be sufficient to coerce the people; that is to say, should the irritation really serve to drive the people to desperation. But he called upon the committee to recollect that the people of this country were not easily to be excited to resistance, or to the abandonment of their usual good temper; for it was known, that notwithstanding all the alarm which government affected to feel from public meetings some time ago, the largest meeting which took place, comprehending, it was supposed 50, or 60,000 people, was dispersed by about 40 yeomen; and that although the greatest irritation was offered, no resistance was made on the part of the people. If then, this proceeding were an experiment to try the temper of the people, he result showed that that temper was good while, on the other hand, if it was an experiment to ascertain with how few persons in military uniform and without discipline, a large body of people might be

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dispersed, the result must have been most satisfactory to those by whom the experiment was suggested. But the noble lord and his colleagues had drawn the strangest possible inference from the transaction to which he referred; and through that inference, 11,000 veterans were embodied without even consulting parliament, professedly because such an increase of force was necessary for the preservation of public tranquillity. For an explanation of that extraordinary proceeding, however, he would say "vide The London Gazette," which was filled with declarations from ministerial adherents, that the country was in danger, that disaffection was rapidly spreading, that morality had lost all its influence, that sedition was the order of the day, and that blasphemy was quite the fashion. These were the pictures upon which the veterans were embodied; and how ministers, it appeared, were anxious to take credit for economy, because they proposed to disband those corps which, in point of fact, they never should have embodied at all. He exhorted ministers, if they wished to have credit for real economy, to take a wider course in the reduction of the army. There was a time when that House would not have agreed to any vote of this nature without instituting an inquiry into the internal state and financial circumstances of the country. The present was not, however, the season for inquiry, but for implicit confidence in those ministers who were really undeserving of it. Among the instances in which they were not deserving of confidence, was the phenomenon which they had established in our police. This phenomenon was, indeed, utterly irreconcileable with the principle and practice of the constitution, and peculiarly calculated to destroy all confidence between the government and the people. He meant not the spy system, exception able as that system must be deemed, but the establishment of that description of; persons, noticed in the report of the committee of 1817, who, being employed as spies by the government to detect treason, actually endeavoured to excite that crime. It was not merely to Oliver and Castles that he meant to refer on this occasion, but to the circumstances disclosed upon a recent trial in the Court of King's bench, with respect to the conduct of Fletcher and others. He did not entertain an opinion that any member of the government was implicated in the nefari-
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ous conduct of Fletcher arid Co.; but after the disclosures alluded to, it could not be matter of astonishment that a very, different impression prevailed out of doors. Here the hon. member took a rapid review of the force proposed to be kept up in Ireland, which was confessedly in a state of tranquillity. He deprecated the idea thrown out as to the possibility of a new continental war, in order to reconcile the House to the existence of a large military force, trusting that ministers would not be unmindful of the evils entailed upon the empire by the late very calamitous war. To the noble secretary for foreign affairs he would not appeal, as he thought that that noble lord, from his close intimacy with German and other foreign diplomatists, was, with all his respect for him, actually spoiled as an English statesman. But there were other ministers to whom he looked with some confidence, for the protection of the country from any farther aggravation of its distress, by any concern in continental warfare. The hon. member concluded with expressing his intention, in the event of the present motion being carried, to move an amendment for the reduction of 10,000 men in the force proposed by the noble lord.
Mr. C. Grantagreed with his hon. fiend (Mr. Dawson) in thinking that Ireland was at present in a state of tranquillity. He rejoiced to hear this admission, because he recollected that some months ago his hon. friend had, in prophetic tones, anticipated a very different result, and had pointed his severest shafts at him because he had presumed to express a hope that Ireland would continue in a tranquil state. He might therefore appeal to his hon. friend to reconcile this apparent inconsistency of conduct; but passing that by, he hailed the concession with pleasure. He could assure the House that he was as anxious as his hon. friend could be to reduce the military force kept up in Ireland, and to recede from a system which in that country had been pursued to too great an extent. That reduction, however, must be gradual; and the hon. gentlemen, if they reflected on the various duties which the military had to perform in that country, would see the impossibility of fixing on a definite number of men, from which the government was not to have the power of receding.
Sir H. Vivianremarked upon the in-

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consistency of those gentlemen on the opposite side of the House, who, while they urged ministers to take such mea-sores with respect to Naples as were most likely to involve the country in war, would refuse that amount of military force which was essential to enable government to prosecute such a war with effect.—The gallant officer strongly deprecated the idea of reducing the number of our regular regiments, deeming it more expedient, especially with a view to the expeditious preparation of an army, rather to keep up a number of skeleton regiments than to be under the necessity of raising entirely new corps upon any sudden emergency. He hoped the House would take into consideration the state of the half-pay officers, who were at present so numerous, and many of whom did not receive in half-pay even the interest of the money which they had originally paid for their commissions.
Mr. Bernalcalled upon those gentlemen who were termed the neutral party, and who were constantly professing themselves the advocates of retrenchment, to support those professions by their votes on this occasion.
Mr. Bennetdeclared that it was impossible the country could support such an establishment as they were now called on to agree to. He would say, and say it boldly, that the country could not afford to pay the taxes which would be required to maintain such an establishment, and the whole country was of the same opinion. The noble lord told them it was impossible to return to the standard of, 1792, but what said their own finance committee of 1817? In that opinion he concurred, and he should therefore vote for the reduction of 10,000 men from the present estimates. He proposed a return to the standard of 1792, because we had now on foot a large force which was not then in existence, and which rendered: unnecessary so large an establishment of; regular forces. The yeomanry cavalry, volunteers, marines, and artillery, in this country and Ireland, amounted to 168,000 men and upwards. These, in addition to a regular force on the scale of 1792, was sufficient to take away from the minds of the most timid any apprehension for the security of the country. A considerable reduction of expense might be effected by pulling down the useless fortifications which had been erected in different parts of the country. The noble lord talked of
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the force necessary to protect the stores. But of what nature were those stores? Sheet anchors, ships' masts, and cannon, were not very portable commodities; and surely the 6,000 marines at the several stations were sufficient for that purpose. If the House looked less at his majesty's ministers, as they sat there proposing such establishments, and more at the condition of the people who were to pay for them, they would reduce the amount of those estimates; and he was sure, in that case, the noble lord and his masters would find a way to cut down their establishments accordingly. The country was suffering under the pressure of distress, which rendered it unable to afford such a scale of expenditure. Their table was loaded with petitions, calling upon the House to relieve the distresses of the people. The only possible way in which that could be done was by reducing the establishments and lowering the taxes. If they did not adopt that course, it was in vain for them to appoint a committee to inquire into the causes of the distress. The committee might sit till doomsday, the distress would continue to increase, and the difficulties of our situation would daily become more perplexing.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that with respect to the military grounds of the question, it appeared that the hon. gentlemen opposite did not object to the scale proposed for our foreign possessions, but only to the magnitude of the home establishment. All questions of this nature must be examined with a view to the exigencies of our situation; but he did not agree in opinion with the gallant officer, that there was any thing in the affairs of Naples which could require the addition of a single man to our establishment, and he expressly disclaimed any view of that nature. Government had not been influenced in the slightest degree by any regard to the aspect of affairs in that quarter in proposing the present estimates. With respect to the reduction of our forces at home, he would remind the House, that the establishment of last year was thought necessary to preserve the tranquillity of the country, and he must say he thought it would be highly imprudent to reduce the force all at once below the scale at which it stood before that necessity existed. They had reduced the amount which was on that occasion added to the scale; and that he contended was as rapid a reduction as was prudent;

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but if they proceeded to a further reduction of 10,000 men, they would not be able to carry on the service in the colonies with the number which the gentlemen opposite agreed they required. There would not be a sufficient force to furnish the reliefs required for the colonies. The House was aware that the cavalry and the guards were not available for that service. The amount of the force proposed for Great Britain and Ireland was 48,000; of these there were about 9,000 cavalry and 6,000 guards, the deduction of which would leave only 33,000 for the home service, and to furnish reliefs for the large army in the colonies—He objected to the course which had been taken on a former night by the hon. member for Abingdon, who opened to the view of the House very extensive details, and, without saying to what particular he objected, concluded by asserting, that some large and well-sounding sum of two or three millions might be saved. They were now in a committee, and the hon. member had an opportunity of proving his assertion in detail. The reduction that was made this year amounted to 707,000 l. in the army, 300,000 l. in the navy, and 444,000 l. in the miscellaneous estimates, making a reduction of more than 1,450,000 l. The estimates were within 36,521 l. of the sum contemplated by the committee of 1817; but from the estimate of that committee had been excepted two considerable sums, viz. the charge of embodied militia, and the pensions created by the return of the army of occupation from France, both of which were merged in the present estimates. Even, if the hon. member were to try the case by reference to his own standard, he would find that they had actually accomplished the recommendation of the finance committee. He would contend that 10,000 men would not be sufficient to recruit the army abroad, and that a reduction of one million and a half had taken place in this year as compared with the last. The proposition, therefore, submitted to the House on a former night, was founded on a misconception, as it assumed that reduction was not intended by the government.—He felt it necessary to say a few words as to the distresses of the country. No one felt those distresses more than he did; for if there was any class of men more likely to feel for them than another, it was that class which conducted the public service, under the
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anxious circumstances which must always exist when a great pressure was felt by a large body of the people. There was nothing, however, less calculated to support the people under their sufferings, than the practice of deluding them with false expectations, and leading them to suppose that there could be any reduction so important as to afford them relief under all the complicated causes of their embarrassment. Though the expenditure was between 16 and 17 millions a year, yet when they came to take out of that those permanent charges for the army and navy, which might be called dead expenses, amounting to 5 millions, it would reduce the whole to between 12 and 13 millions. He would not be understood as opposing retrenchment; on the contrary, economy, wherever it was practicable, should have his warmest support; but he did protest against the language of exaggeration and inflammation. He did not see that the distress of the country could be removed or alleviated by painting that distress in glaring and unwarranted colours; and, that any such reduction could be effected in the military expenditure as would sensibly lighten the burthens of the people, was an assertion which no honest man who saw his way to the end of his proposition, could be justified in making.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, that when the force was infinitely greater than it was at present, and reductions were pressed by himself and others, the noble lord then as now, "with honeyed words framed to make senates false," said, that if they took away any part of it, the duty of the country could not be done. He was as far from wishing to practise any delusion on the country as the noble lord himself, and he would not so insult the good sense of the people of the country as to offer to them any statements which he would not seriously propose to that House; but, if the people continued to place any confidence in the statements and arguments of the noble lord, he should feel much surprised. He denied that the noble secretary at war opened his estimates by stating a reduction of 707,000 l. He opened only a saving of 45,000 l. If there were a saving of 707,000 l. how did it happen that the vote now called for was not so much Jess than that of last year? They had the old story of reliefs. In the statement of his hon. friend, 10,000 men had been allowed for

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that purpose, being a fifth part of the force employed on foreign stations; and he would appeal to his hon. friend, the gallant general opposite, or to any other military man in the House, whether that was not sufficient. The home service might be reduced in the proportion mentioned by his hon. friend, and yet leave 10,000 for reliefs above the establishment of 1792. The cavalry and guards were not available for reliefs; their present establishment exceeded that of 1792 by 8,000 men. They were by far the most expensive description of force; and a reduction of 8,000 would enable them to increase the troops available for the colonial service by four thousand, and yet a considerable saving would be effected. The right hon. secretary for Ireland had contended for the necessity of the present establishment in Ireland; but during the war, when Buonaparté was at the height of his power, that country was left with only 10 or 12,000; and yet, forsooth, in a time of peace, with a large yeomanry establishment, it was contended that 20,000 were absolutely necessary. It was not a large establishment that ought to be looked to, but the comfort, security, tranquillity, wealth, peace, and repose of the people. Referring to the observation of his gallant friend, as to the affairs of Naples, if any force were required from this country in that quarter, he trusted it would be an efficient naval squadron.
Mr. Huskissoninsisted, that his noble friend, when he opened the estimates, had stated, that reductions were made to the amount of 707,000 l. He assured the committee that the vote of this year was less by 707,000 l. than that of last year. The reduction spoken of by the other side of 10,000 men, would not leave a sufficient force for furnishing reliefs to the foreign stations, and doing the home duty. He maintained, that this country had still within itself resources which would furnish the means of supporting a war, if it were called on to defend its honour or its independence by an appeal to arms; and denied that the trade of the country was in that depressed condition which many persons imagined. The iron trade and the cotton trade, he contended, were improving.
Mr. Maberlysaid, that it was not his intention to delay the committee by any lengthened observation, but, having been so personally alluded to by the noble lord,
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he could not avoid making a few remarks. The noble lord had talked of his motion for the reduction of taxes, as if it were an attempt to delude the people. Did the division on that occasion look as if it were so considered? The noble lord had said that he was ready to go into a committee. He accepted the challenge; and if the noble lord consented to the committee, would show him that millions could be saved. Would it be said that no saving could be made in the collection of the revenue, which was now done at 8 per cent? In Ireland, it was 21 per cent, when the revenue was not much more than 4,000,000 l. When he proposed, that this collection should be made at a cheaper rate, was it to be endured that it should be called a delusion on the people? He would tell the noble lord, that if the committee were gone into, the savings which he had suggested, aye and more, might be made. He did not propose that they should arise from pitiful and paltry reductions of clerks' salaries. He did not propose any savings from a reduction of the pay of the army. It was not the army, but the things appertaining to the army, that caused the expense. He had said that four millions might be saved; he did not mean to press the saving of that particular sum; but he would prove in the committee, that a direct saving of 2,000,000 l. might be made in the collection of the revenue. He had been called upon to show what particular savings might be made. He would mention one case. It was known that during the war it had been found necessary to keep up a storekeeper-general's department. It might be asked, was it necessary to keep up that establishment at this moment? As a proof of that necessity he should mention one fact. By the returns made to the House it appeared, that the whole value of what was stored last year was 114,000 l.; on which an expense of 52,000 l. had been incurred—just 45 per cent upon the whole. But this was not all: there were duplicates of those offices in all the colonies abroad where we had ordnance officers, and where the whole thing might be done without one additional shilling of expense. We had storekeepers in Canada, Nova Scotia, Gibraltar, the Mauritius, and several other colonies. He mentioned these circumstances to show that savings might be made; but the principle adopted oil the other side seemed to be this—that the

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storekeeper-general's department having once been established must be kept up. Now, he would contend, that a saving of the whole ought to be made, at a time when the reduction of every shilling was of importance to the people.
The cries of "Question" now became loud, and strangers were ordered to withdraw. The gallery continued closed from half past 12 till 3 o'clock. During the exclusion of strangers, several divisions took place, each of which was preceded by warm discussions. The first division was on colonel Davies' motion, That the Chairman report progress: Ayes, 95; Noes, 216. A division then took place on a motion for adjournment: Ayes, 92; Noes, 209. Three other divisions followed on similar motions, on which the numbers were as follows: Ayes, 62; Noes, 220. Ayes, 60; Noes, 212; Ayes, 48; Noes, 158.
On the motion of Mr. Gordon, that the second Report of the Finance Committee should be read, the Committee divided: Ayes, 45; Noes, 162. Another division took place on a motion that the chairman should report progress: Ayes, 47; Noes, 164. At twenty minutes past three, strangers, after an exclusion of between three and four hours, were 8gain admitted to the gallery. Ministers were at that time sitting on the opposition benches, their places being occupied by their opponents.—Mr. Hume moved, that the act of William and Mary, for disbanding the army, be read; upon which the committee divided: Ayes, 43; Noes, 144. A ninth division took place on the question, that the Chairman report progress: Ayes, 43; Noes, 140. A tenth division took place on the same motion: Ayes, 38; Noes, 145. At four o'clock, fresh candles having been brought in, Mr. Lambton moved, that they should be excluded. On this the committee divided: Ayes, 38; Noes, 146. Lord Castlereagh then observed, that considering the lateness of the hour, he would not press the question further, as the estimates could not be got through in any reasonable time. The chairman then reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again; and at five in the morning the House adjourned.

List of the Minority on the last Division.

Barratt, S. M.

Bury, visc.

Bennet, H. G.

Calvert, Charles

Blake, sir F.

Creevey, Thos.

1216

Crespigny, sir W.

Ricardo, D.

Denison, Wm. J.

Rice, T. S.

Duncannon, lord

Robarts, Abr.

Ellis, Ed.

Robarts, G.

Fergusson, sir R. C.

Robinson, sir Geo.

Gordon, Robt.

Rowley, sir W.

Harbord, hon. E.

Sefton, lord

Hill, lord A.

Talbot, R. W.

Hughes, W. L.

Taylor, M. A.

Hume, Joseph

Whitbread, S. C.

Hutchinson, hon. C.

Whitbread, W. H.

Lambton, J. G.

Wilson, sir R.

Lushington, Dr.

Wood, ald.

Maberly, J. sen.

Wyvill, M.

Martin, John

TELLER.

Palmer, C. F.

Bernal, Ralph

Philips, G. jun.