Sitting of 29 June 1821

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The House proceeded to consider further of the Resolutions of the Committee of Supply. On the resolution, that 5,135 l. 1s. 6d. be granted for the Salaries of the Officers of the Alien-office, Superannuations, &c,
Sir R. Wilsonrose to oppose the grant. If a foreigner misconducted himself in this country, it would be much better to proceed against him by indictment, than as now summarily by the Alien bill, on clandestine information. In some cases the evasion of the law prevented the foreigner from availing himself even of the scanty means of justification, which the bill itself afforded. In France, by the charter, although a passport was necessary
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to the admission of a foreigner into the country, when he actually had arrived, be could not be removed without having committed some offence obnoxious to the laws. By the existing Spanish law, Spain was allowed to be an asylum for foreigners who fled from their own countries, in consequence of political offences alone. There were many cases of the treatment of foreigners under the Alien bill, which were highly reprehensible. There was the case of a foreigner, who was sent out upon the representation of a foreign ambassador, that foreigner not having committed any offence in this country. There was the case of madame Montholon and her child, the latter of whom died, in consequence of not being allowed to land. There was the case of general Gourgaud, suddenly hurried off, without being allowed the opportunity of justifying himself from the charges alleged against him. Who did not recollect the conduct of colonel Browne, which induced M. Marietti, the banker, to warn his son, that if he were not cautious, the Alien act would be used against him? In fact, he scarcely met a foreigner who did not begin conversation by asking him, whether he thought an alien might now live in England free from the vexatious operations of this measure.
Mr. Hobhousesaid, that several cases had been quoted to prove what were the evil effects of the alien law. He would take leave to mention another, which went to show what was the idea that was entertained of it by foreigners themselves. Some time since he happened to be in the theatre at Milan, in company with an English physician. His friend being incommoded with the cap of a grenadier officer who stood before him, begged him to take it off that he might see what was going on. To this civil request a rude answer was given, and the Englishman desired the grenadier to walk out of the box. The invitation being immediately complied with, both himself and his friend concluded that the preliminaries of a more particular meeting were immediately to be arranged. The House would judge of their mutual surprise, when, upon crossing a lobby, his friend was seized, put in the guard-house, and next morning desired, by a message from count Saurau, to quit the Milanese immediately. Upon his remonstrating with, the count, upon the hardship of the case, the count replied, "I believe you are

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aware that the same thing might be done in England by my lord Castlereagh, under the alien act." This was very ridiculous to be sure; very unlike the noble lord, and very unlike the law: but it showed that the principle of that law was so odious in itself, that even well-informed men, attributed to it an operation of the most despotic character.
Mr. Bernalobserved, that while we were holding out to foreign nations every inducement to trade with us, we ought to remove that impediment to a closer connection with those nations, which the Alien bill presented.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, the gallant general was too well aware of the course and practice of parliament, really to suppose that a question upon the charge of the Alien-office was a proper opportunity for discussing the Alien law. That law would only have operation for one year more; and a much more fitting occasion for such a discussion might be found. With regard to the law, he had always protested against the notion of its having been framed with a view to the particular wishes of any foreign nation whatever. Whenever the gallant general could make out a single case, in which any foreigner for his conduct abroad had been excluded from these shores, contrary to the well known hospitality of the country, and the generous spirit of our foreign and domestic policy, he would admit that the Alien act had been abused. It was a very different thing, however, that, where a foreigner came here, in order to make this kingdom the theatre of his conspiracies, and of his hostile machinations against other and friendly powers, he should be prevented from remaining. When this bill expired, and his majesty's government propose its renewal, it would then be for the gallant general to bring up his artillery to bear against it. At present he was only wasting his powder and shot, and directing his fire, not against the principle of the law, but against the officers and clerks of the establishment.
Sir J. Mackintoshsaid, that such was his abhorrence of the measure, that he felt himself bound to avail himself of every opportunity of opposing it. Unfortunately it was now too late in the session to think of proposing the repeal of this law; but still he felt it necessary to object to the money by which it was to be carried into execution. Having no other means of
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reaching the monster, he would starve it to death, and therefore, if his gallant friend went to a division, he would vote against the resolution.
Mr. Bennetsaid, he would give his decided opposition to the grant. As an instance of the conduct pursued in Naples, he begged to state a fact which had been communicated to him upon the best authority. A Neapolitan senator had taken refuge on board a Spanish ship. He was there visited by sir W. A'Court and the French ambassador, who expressed their regret that he should entertain any jealousy or alarm, and promised that he might come on shore with perfect safety. The senator, relying on these promises, went on shore, accompanied by his son, a boy of 18 years of age, and they were immediately arrested and thrown into one of the worst prisons in the town. The confinement of this gentleman was the more unpardonable, as sir W. A'Court, by speaking one word, could instantly release him from prison. A recollection of some transactions which took place some time ago when he (Mr. B.) was in Italy, made him tremble for the fate of this unfortunate senator, under the government of the king of the Lazzaroni.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, it was no bad Criterion of the mildness of the king of Naples' government, that he was beloved and respected by the Lazzaroni. With respect to what the hon. member had said of sir W. A'Court, he could not believe that that gentleman would lend himself to any such transaction.
Mr. Hutchinsonthought that a system of tyranny was now acted upon by the chief of the allied sovereigns, and that their great object wus to put down liberty in Europe; and he believed that though the noble marquis had not dared to affix his name to any of their public declarations, yet he was not unfriendly to their system.
The House divided: Ayes, 47: Noes, 27.

List of the Minority.

Abercromby, hon. J.

Harbord, hon. E.

Becher, W.

Hume, J.

Benyon, B.

Hutchinson, hon. H.

Calcraft, J.

Lennard, T. B.

Cavendish, hon. H.

Martin, J.

Clifford, W. J.

Milton, vict.

Creevey, T.

Monck, J.B.

Davies, col.

Palmer C. F.

Denman, T.

Phillips, G. R. jun.

Fergusson, sir R.

Robertson, A.

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Robinson, sir G.

Warre, J. A.

Robarts, A. W.

Wilson, sir R.

Rice, S.

TELLERS.

Smith, R.

Bennet, hon. H. G.

Smith, W.

Hobhouse, J. C.

GRANT TO THE DUKE OF CLARENCE.
On the order of the day being read for going into a Committee on the Duke of Clarence's Annuity Bill,
Mr. Creeveythought that ministers were not treating the House as they ought on the present occasion. They had been hunting down bills both day and night during the whole session, and now, at its Conclusion, they proposed a measure which ought to have been introduced sufficiently early to enable gentlemen to give it a due consideration. His next objection was, that the whole proceeding was perfectly unconstitutional. It was not against any positive law, it certainly was against the understood usage of parliament, to connect this bill with something which took place two parliaments ago. All that could be said by the royal duke was, that if he could induce parliament to be so foolish as to grant him this money, he had the consent of the Crown in his favour. He contended that a message from the Crown ought to have been laid before the House before the bill was introduced, He objected also to parliament being made the instrument of favouritism, either by the Crown or the ministers. They ought not to allow themselves to show favour to one branch of the royal family, while another branch was neglected. He had heard it said, that her majesty was to have a sum of money allowed her as an outfit. This, however, was forgotten, and it was an outrage on parliament to make it the instrument of favouring this royal duke, while the Queen was allowed to be sacrificed. The Queen had as good a right as the duke of Clarence to the consideration of parliament. Her majesty had, with a magnanimity which did her great honour, refused to accept more than 35,000. a year, though 50,000. was offered to her. This was seven years ago, and her majesty had just as good a right to apply for her arrears, as the duke of Clarence had for his. Was it right to call on the people to give this money to the duke of Clarence, after having taken a large sum to defray the expense of the trial of her majesty?—a trial which the people considered unjust and iniquitous. It was too hard, after that expense, to ask a large sum of money for that royal personage, who had
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acted so conspicuous a part in that fatal measure. He wished the House to recollect the words of a noble marquis (Titchfield) when speaking of that trial on a former evening. Those words ought to be engraved in letters of gold, for the purpose of showing the royal family how much they degraded and disgraced themselves by such public prosecutions. He had been an eye-witness of what took place on that fatal trial, and he never should forget the ferocious manner in which the royal personage who came now to—[Order, order!].
The Marquis of Londonderryput it to the Chair whether the words "ferocious manner" ought to be used in speaking of the royal family.
The Speakerwas sure the hon. member would see the impropriety of using such expressions.
Mr. Creeveysaid, he spoke of his royal highness merely in the capacity of a suitor to that House for money. He had heard the duke of Clarence signify his "content," in the case of the Queen, in a manner which he never could have expected, considering that the illustrious person was his own cousin—his sister-in-law—a princess of the house of Brunswick—and the Queen of England. The tone, and manner, and temper in which his royal highness pronounced his sentence, had made an impression on him that he should never forget. It was such as he never expected to have seen or heard in any civilized society [cries of Order!].
The Speakersaid, that he was sure no gentleman would more warmly contend for the freedom of debate in that House than the hon. member. He no doubt, would consider the freedom of that House infringed on, if any person in any other place commented on any thing that might pass within the walls of that House.
Mr. Creeveysaid, he would go no farther in his comments, but would turn to another subject—that of the coronation; and he could not help observing, though he admitted, with the noble lord opposite, that it was a solemn compact between the king and his people, that somehow or other, it was not so regarded by the people. How else could he account for the questions put by almost all who spoke upon the subject, as to whether it was really to take place? How, he asked, could such questions be accounted for, except upon the supposition that the people thought the present was not the

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proper occasion for such a ceremony? Nay, there were not wanting persons who looked upon this solemn ceremony as part of the persecution against the Queen: understanding it was not intended that her majesty should be crowned with her royal consort. He was not sufficiently skilled in the law on this subject, to know Whether her majesty had a right to be crowned or not; but it was difficult to see upon what ground her majesty, as a member of the royal family, could be excluded from at least being present on the occasion. He thought that every step which could be taken ought to be adopted for the purpose of restoring that harmony which ought to exist between the royal family and the country.
Mr. Bankes, jun., said, that there was no analogy between the case of the Queen and that of the duke of Clarence. Her majesty had refused a part of the grant offered her by parliament, because she considered it was too much, and his royal highness had not accepted what he considered too little for the due maintenance of his rank in the country. At the time he had so refused it, he could not have been certain whether the illustrious princess to whom he was now united would have consented to settle in this country.
Mr. Harhordsaid, that he was willing to vote for the 6,000 l. a year, but not for the arrears. On the subject of the Queen's case, he thought that an allusion to it was most relevant and necessary.
Mr. Bennetcould not help feeling insuperable objections to the proposed coronation. He could not but grudge the whole expenses of it, not from disrespect to the sovereign, but from a thorough conviction that it was ill-suited to the poverty and distress of the times. It was not fit that the country, sick at heart as it was, should look so gay in the face. The large sum of 100,000 l. would be ill spent indeed on such an exhibition. It was not now a solemn service, but a mere show.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that the coronation was called a mere show; but he would tell the hen, gentlemen that that august ceremony was performed under the authority of law; that it was an institution ancient and venerable, sanctioned by the usage of ages, and by the spirit of the constitution. Ministers would have neglected their duty to the sovereign if they bad not advised the performance of that ceremony with as little delay as possible. He lamented, as a part of the bit-
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ter fruits of the transactions of the last year, that lion, members, far from allaying, laboured to aggravate the evils of that period. He was convinced, that hon. members opposite had done much to increase those evils; and the speeches of that night he looked upon as an endeavour to revive throughout the country those feelings of animosity and agitation, which had for some time ceased to exist. Those hon. gentlemen would call upon the country to expend millions in what they called the cause of liberty, but which he would call the cause of general confusion, but they showed the utmost tenderness in the expenditure of 100,000 l. on an ancient ceremony which was imposed upon the sovereign by the laws of the land.
Mr. Humesaid, that the noble marquis thought fit to throw very serious imputations upon gentlemen on his side of the House. But he would tell the noble lord, that he and his colleagues were the firebrands that created a flame through the country, when they attempted to crush the Queen of England. But it was too much for the noble lord to call the coronation an august and sacred ceremony. He denied that any ceremony could be august and sacred that was, like this, founded in injustice. If it was proper that the king should be crowned, it was right that the queen should be crowned also; if otherwise, the coronation, instead of being an august and sacred solemnity, would be a partial, wanton, cruel act of injustice. The noble lord and another noble lord stood pledged, that if the Queen should be acquitted she would be in titled to all her rights and privileges as Queen. Yet the noble lord now talked to the House of the august and sacred solemnity of a coronation from which the Queen-consort should be excluded! He believed no administration had ever departed so widely from the principles of Christianity, or wounded so deeply all the feelings and principles that were dearest to the heart of man. Was it not then too much for those who exerted all their power to prevent, to stop, to arrest such wrongs, to be charged by the noble marquis with disturbing, exciting, and inflaming the country? He had early, earnestly, and in every possible stage, resisted the persecution against the Queen, which had more generally and more justly inflamed the country than any act since the Revolutions. He now gave a piece of

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advice to the noble lord, to be just both to the king and to the Queen, out of respect hot less to the king than to the feelings of the country. Let ministers no longer advise measures respecting her majesty, that were tyrannical and oppressive; but let them advise his majesty to be just towards an individual whom God had placed under his especial care and protection. [Hear, hear!]
Mr. C. F. Palmersaid, he would oppose the grant, because he disapproved of it on principle, and because it was opposed to the sentiments and wishes of the people.
Mr. W. Smithcontended, that there was nothing in the coronation which could bind more firmly the people to the sovereign. Of one thing he was convinced, that if the sovereign, from a wish to save the money of his people, consented to forego this ceremony, he would do more to raise himself in the affection and respect of Englishmen, than by going through any ceremony, though it were ten times more splendid than that which was contemplated.
Mr. Bathurstsaid, that a coronation had always taken place on the accession of the sovereign. The coronation oath had been since the Revolution part of the law of the land, and could not be administered but at the coronation.
After a few words from Mr. Hobhouse and lord Milton, the House went into the committee. On the clause which enacts, that the grant shall begin from the 5th April 1818, Mr. Hume moved, that "1821" be substituted. Upon this, the committee divided: For the Amendment, 24; Against it, 54.

List of the Minority.

Bennet, hon. H. G.

Martin, J.

Becher, W. W.

Monck, J. B.

Benyon, B.

Milton, lord

Byng, G.

Palmer, C. F.

Brougham, H.

Robarts, A. W.

Crawley, S.

Robinson, sir G.

Denman, T.

Rice, S.

Fane, J.

Smith, W.

Fergusson, sir R.

Swann, H.

Hume, J.

Tremayne, J. H.

Harbord, hon. E.

TELLER.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Creevey, T.

Lennard, T. B.

APPROPRIATION BILL.
The House having gone into a committee on this bill,
Mr. Humesaid, that the Bill contained matter which afforded ample ground for
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discussion: it indeed opened every vote which had been passed by the House, and we might now reduce or reject, if it should be thought proper, any sum in any of the estimates. He claimed that course as a right for him to follow if he chose; but as several of his friends, who had intended to take a part in the debate which was expected to arise on this Bill, had been obliged to leave town, he, after the lengthened observations he had been obliged to make in detail on the principal items in the estimates, did not now intend to oppose the bill in its progress, further than to remark on one or two items which had not been noticed as he had intended. He wished the attention of the House to be called to the charge of agency for the payment of half-pay of foreign officers, a most irregular and improper charge. The noble lord had appointed an agent with an allowance of 3½ per cent for 1817, 8, and 9, and of 2½ or of 6d in the pound for the disbursement of that pay in 1820 and 21, being a charge of three times more than was paid for artillery half-pay, and three times more than ought to be expended for that purpose. By the return in his hand, the sum of 17,662 l. had been paid for agency on about 126,000 l. for the last five years, being at the rate of 3,532 l. a year, a charge from which the country ought to be relieved. He considered this a gross waste, and that the pay should be disbursed, as other half-pay was, by the paymaster-general, or by the War-office, if the noble lord's superintendence was necessary. Mr. Disney, the agent, was rendered a public accountant, and allowed to hold large balances in his hands, contrary to the meaning, if not to the letter, of the Pay-office act, which orders all money to be kept in the Bank of England: a double advantage was thus given to the agent against the public, which he (Mr. H.) considered highly improper. He hoped this would be saved.
By the way in which the charge for recruiting was included in the contingent charges with the pay for the troops, he had not at the hour of midnight when that vote passed, had an opportunity of stating his objections to this expense. It was an enormous charge in time of peace; the establishments were all extravagant, and ought to be put down. The charge this year amounted to 73,398 l. which required reduction. As members had pledged themselves to pursue a system of economy, and to reduce the number of the army, he

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hoped they would put an immediate, stop to recruiting and show their willingness to act upon that declaration. He was prepared to show, if time had admitted, gross abuse in the recruiting system. It was scarcely possible to conceive that a staff of 497 officers and men should be kept up for the purpose of recruiting in time of peace, at an expense of 73,398 l. a year, and particularly when orders would be given to reduce the army. If reference was made to the establishments in six districts, having six inspecting field-officers, six adjutants, six pay-masters, with ten clerks, fifty-five Serjeants, an officer in London, at 1,424 l., the same in Edinborough the whole for Great Britain was an expense of 40,677 l. The charge for recruiting for the troops in the service of the East-India Company ought certainly to be paid by that company, and 23,211 l. saved to the country. Until lately, or perhaps at the present moment, an establishment had been kept up at Heligoland at considerable expense, to enlist foreign recruits, without the knowledge of parliament, and contrary to law; as long as such proceedings were allowed to go on, it was useless to talk of economy. So late as the 9th of April last the Zephyr transport was sent by the navy-board to that island to bring 100 or more foreign recruits to England. He submitted whether such proceedings ought to go on any longer? The charge for the depots of troops at the Isle of Wight, Maidstone, and Chatham must be revised: that at Maidstone was very objectionable, and, he believed, unnecessary, kept up, as he understood, to give a command to the general officer now there. Could it be necessary to keep up wooden barracks at Maidstone at a great expense for repairs and separate staff, when there were at Chatham and other places excellent brick barracks remaining empty, and kept up at little expense? He could only call it a job. The establishment of Albany barracks had an extravagant staff, with floating craft, &c. quite uncalled for, at the present time. He hoped that these dép73x00F4;ts would be much reduced before next year.
With regard td the number of the Army, he thought the noble marquis must consent to a large reduction. He would never again be able to pass his estimates for more than 60,000 men; he had better, therefore, come forward with a good grace, and make the necessary reduction, before he was compelled, for compelled he would
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soon be, in spite of all his objections.—The next subject worthy of attention was, the great expense of the establishments of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals, which, He was confident, might be consolidated with great saving and advantage. He thought that all the military establishments now in Ireland ought to be placed directly under those in London, and much of the jobbing and waste which took place in that country be prevented. He had now done with the army.—Having at different times brought every department before the House, and pointed out where very great reductions might be made, it was for them to enforce them. He begged now to make a few remarks on the Navy, and first with respect to the dock-yards. Ministers must be aware that great dissatisfaction existed in the minds of all who witnessed the shameful waste of public money in these places. Immense sums were paid to the officers who received salaries, whilst the pay of the workmen was reduced. The clerks and officers received the same pay and allowances now as they did during the war; they received more, indeed, as the income tax of ten per cent was deducted from them then, and not now. They had in war to superintend the work at double tides, early and late; now the work went on only for six, or eight hours in the day. Was it just that, with the present prices of provisions compared with 1813, they should continue to receive the same allowances, whilst the workmen were all reduced? He thought the government should purchase no more, foreign oak: large purchases had been made from the Austrians at high prices. We had plenty of navy timber in England, better than any that could be got from the Adriatic, and money should net be spent in that manner abroad. One item more arid he should have done with the navy,—it was the keeping up an admiral at Portsmouth and Plymouth at an expense of near 4,000 l. at each place. It was proper in time of war, when the number of ships at each of these places was great; but at present, when there were only three ships or so under each station, he considered the large establishment of secretaries, table allowance, &c. too high. In 1792, he understood a rear-admiral commanded each of these stations, at an expense not exceeding 1,476 l. a year, whilst an admiral's staff amounted to 3,786 l. By returning to the practice of 1792, there would be a saying of 4,191 l, without any Injury to the ser-

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vice. With respect to the Ordnance, he trusted that the hon. member (Mr. Ward) would take into serious consideration the various reductions he (Mr. H) had recommended in that department, and that they would be carried into effect before next year. The Westminster and Tower establishment, ought to be immediately incorporated with great saving. He had formerly pointed out unnecessary establishments and expense to the amount of 216,000 l.; but on more particular examination, he was convinced that upwards of 400,000 l. could, with due attention to the public service be saved to the public.
He had now, he believed, adverted to all the points which required his notice. Those individuals who had, unfortunately for them, been exposed to his observations, might be assured that no offence was meant to any of them, and that to most of them, indeed, he was an entire stranger; but that he had been obliged, in the course of his public duty, to bring forward individual cases to support the statements he had made. He should indeed be sorry to offend any public officer. With respect to those hon. members who Lad submitted the different estimates to the House, he was sorry to have occasioned them so much trouble; but in no case had he done so without his having in view the public interests; and he hoped that the estimates of next year would render such a course again unnecessary. It was matter of regret to him, that he had not had time to consider the hon. member's (Mr. Bankes) address to his majesty, which he had made the amendment to his motion on a former evening. As upon consideration, taking it as a whole, he might have adopted it instead of his own. It was more likely to be binding upon his majesty's ministers, which was important, and it might have had a better appearance to the country if the House had agreed unanimously to a revision of all the departments, and a reduction of the army with the intention of lessening the expense of the country. He hoped that as the noble marquis had employed his hon. friend (Mr. Bankes) to propose the address to which he alluded, he would in future become a zealous supporter of economy and retrenchment, and that a reduction of expenditure, real and efficient, would speedily be effected. That reduction would not, he hoped, be effected at the expense of those individuals, whose income, even now, were scarcely suffi-
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cient to support them—he meant the junior clerks, and those who actually did the work, as they were entitled to be well paid. The reduction which the country would alone view with satisfaction, must be the reduction of the salaries of all the great officers, beginning with his majesty, the highest in the state [Hear!]. He would now remind the noble marquis, that when he (Mr. H.) first opposed the large military establishments, a gallant officer (general Vivian) stated to the House, that if he persisted in the course he had begun, he would prove "a dangerous or a mischievous man." Upon that occasion, he (Mr. H.) replied, that he trusted he should, before he had done, prove one of the best friends of the noble marquis and his colleagues. He thought he had kept his word. He had convinced them, that the best way to obtain the confidence of the nation, was to show that they were really and sincerely determined to reduce the expenditure of the government to the lowest possible scale, consistent with the safety of the country. He did not see the gallant officer to ask him what he now thought of his conduct; but he hoped the noble marquis and his colleagues were convinced that he had been their very best friend [Hear, hear!].
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, he could assure the hon. member, that it had been the intention of government to adopt economical measures, before the address was voted by the House. The conduct of ministers would have been the same, had neither of the addresses been moved. In the Address which the House had voted, and which was certainly more pointed than that proposed by the hon. member, ministers had given pledges which they would strictly perform. He was glad to see the hon. gentleman in such good humour, and to perceive that the debates of the session had not soured his good temper, which would, he doubted not, render him a valuable acquisition to the society lie was about to join.