Sitting of 2 July 1821

GRANT TO THE DUKE OF CLARENCE— CORONATION OF THE QUEEN.
On the order of the day for the third reading of the Duke of Clarence's Annuity bill,
Mr. Creeveyrose to call the attention of the House, and still more of the public, to the time at which the subject was brought before parliament. When a motion for repealing the Malt tax was carried in that House, the number of members present being 274, the noble marquis declared, that the House was too thin finally to determine on so important a subject; he advised gentlemen not "to halloo before they were out of the wood," and in the end, he actually did convert the majority of 24 for a repeal of the tax, into a majority of 98 for its continuance. Again, when the hon. member for Cumberland succeeded in inducing a House of 254 members to agree to a repeal of the agricultural horse tax, the chancellor of the exchequer said, that it was too small a House, and that he would try his hand again; a resolution, however, from which he had subsequently been diverted. A House of 274, or of 254 members, was too small to discuss a subject in which the interests of

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the people were at stake; but when the proposition was for the benefit of the Crown, or any of its members, the noble marquis had no objection to a House such as that which he was then addressing—a House, the majority of which was composed of placemen. If ever there was an unanswerable case in favour of any proposition, the present state of the House furnished such a case in favour of the proposition of his hon. friend the member for Shrewsbury, to exclude placemen and pensioners from seats in parliament. At the late period of the session, placemen, always formidable, became still more so. They were as numerous in the House as ever, while other hon. members, fatigued with the laborious duties which they had so long continued to perform, were gone out of town. Then came the noble marquis and his right hon. colleagues, and availed themselves of so advantageous a position of circumstances to get money from the House for some one branch of the royal family. It was highly objectionable to bring forward such a proposition, when it must be decided by such a House as that which he was addressing.
Mr. Becherdeclared, that he had never heard a proposition so unprincipled and so extravagant, as the proposition to pay what were called the arrears. To acquiesce in such a proposition, would be to show that the House was indifferent about that economy of which so much had been said, He should vote against the payment of any arrears; but the prospective grant of 6,000 l. a-year, seemed to him to rest on different grounds. He was as anxious as any man, that all the branches of the royal family should be maintained in becoming splendor; and in that view he should have supported the measure for conferring this additional income upon his royal highness, but that his hon. friend, the member for Aberdeen had shown that by giving him 3,500 l. a-year of additional income, they would place the duke of Clarence on the same footing as the other younger brothers of the royal family.
Mr. Monckfelt himself bound to oppose the grant. In the present situation of the country, the simple consideration for the House was, whether strict necessity or justice required such an expenditure. The only way in which ministers could be made to be economical was by lopping off some of the taxes, and thereby depriving them of the means of being otherwise.
Mr. Broughamhoped, that as he was not in the House on Saturday, he would be allowed to offer an explanation of the alleged delay which had taken place in asserting her majesty's claim to be crowned. The noble marquis had stated the delay to be about two months from the time that ministers had intimated their own opinion on the subject. To show the inaccuracy of this statement, it would be necessary to refer to dates. On the 21st of May, a question was put by his hon. friend (Mr. Monck) which was answered by the chancellor of the Exchequer; and in the course of the conversation which followed, the noble marquis stated his opinion. Something had been said respecting an authority for her majesty to attend the coronation: but it was clear that there was no necessity for any such authority, as her majesty had a right, as a subject, to attend the ceremony as a spectator. The noble marquis also said, that there was no right so clear as that of the Crown with respect to this subject; and that the coronation of the queen-consort depended upon the grace and favour of the king. He at that time protested against the doctrine of the noble marquis; adding, that he had not made up his own mind on the legal question—and protesting against the doctrine of the noble marquis, lest his silence on that occasion should be construed into assent. This was what had taken place on the 21st of May. It was not the duty of her majesty's law officers to put in her claim immediately upon this. It was their duty to wait her majesty's orders, as they were not her responsible advisers like the ministers of the Crown. Besides, as the coronation had been appointed in the preceding year, and had been postponed, it became proper to wait until there was almost a certainty of its actually taking place. The proclamation appointing the ceremony this year was dated the 9th of June; and inserted in the Gazette on the 12th. The memorial claiming her majesty's right to be crowned was settled at his chambers eleven days afterwards; and upon a subject of such great importance he was not disposed to take any great blame to himself for a delay of eleven days, even had that not (as it had) been partially caused by the indisposition of Dr. Lushington. The holidays had also intervened, and the British Museum was shut, to which plate access was required for the purpose of making

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some searches connected with the subject. The memorial was sent in on the 25th, and as yet no answer had been returned to it. There were now seventeen days to intervene before the coronation, but there was ample time to alter the arrangements, and yet keep strictly within precedents. There was an instance on record, of a proclamation giving only sixteen days notice of the coronation itself; and another, of an alteration in the arrangements being ordered only two days before the appointed day.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, he had not intended any reflection on her majesty's legal advisers in their professional character. He had merely contrasted the rapidity with which they had expected an answer, with the slowness of their own movements in making the legal claim. The 21st of May was not the only occasion on which the opinion of his majesty's ministers had been intimated to the Queen. Between that day and the 21st of June, her majesty addressed a letter to the earl of Liverpool, desiring to be informed what arrangements had been made for her convenience, and who were appointed as her attendants on the approaching solemnity. An official answer was returned, stating that it was a right of the down to give or withhold the order for her majesty's coronation, and that his majesty would be advised not to make any order for her majesty's participation in the arrangements. The Queen rejoined insisting on her right, and declaring that she should attend the coronation unless she were absolutely prevented. A respectful but equally peremptory answer was returned to her majesty, repeating the legal right of the Crown, and declaring that the former answer must be understood as amounting to a prohibition of her attendance. These proceedings clearly showed that her majesty was fully aware of the course intended to be taken by the government. There was on Saturday, a significant manner and an accusing tone about the hon. and learned member (Mr. Denman), as if there had been on the part of ministers an absolute denial of justice. Now, with these facts before the House, he would ask, whether it was not rather hard to call ministers over the coals and blame them for the delay? Respecting the hearing of her majesty's law officers before the privy council in support of, the claim, he had to state to the, House, that this had been asked that very morn-
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ing for the first time. A memorial dated on Saturday last had that morning been received from, her majesty, addressed to the king, and desiring to be heard by her counsel in support of the claim. This however was informally addressed, it being addressed to the king in his sovereign capacity, and not to the king in council. It would have shown a want of respect to her majesty's claim, if, when it had been formally presented, it was not referred to the legal officers of the Crown. Both applications were equally informal; but they had both been attended to. Upon the first, her majesty had been informed that no directions would be given to include her in the arrangements; and with respect to that which had only been received this morning, he had to inform the House that it was immediately laid before his majesty, who had given directions that the Queen should be heard by her lawyers before the privy council—it being first clearly ascertained, that this was no right, but was a grace and favour.
Mr. Denmancertainly thought her majesty's advisers had a right to complain that no answer had been sent to the memorial from Monday to Saturday last. The application itself, he contended, it would have been improper to make until the actual celebration of the solemnity had become morally certain. With respect to the former application, alluded to by the noble marquis, he trusted the noble marquis would pay him and his learned friends the compliment to believe that they had not prepared it; in fact, it had been presented while they were on the circuit, and they of course waited for her majesty's personal instructions on the subject. It had been represented that he had said, that the exclusion of her majesty's name from the Liturgy, was of itself a warning that she would not be crowned. He was not aware that he had ever made any such observation. If he had, it must have been incidentally, as he did not see that the exclusion from the Liturgy, necessarily led to an exclusion from the coronation.
The bill was read a third time. Mr. Bernal then moved to leave out "1818," and insert "1821." The question being put that 1818 stand part of the question, the House divided: Ayes 94. Noes 33.

List of the Minority.

Abercromby, hon. J.

Brougham, H.

Birch, Jos.

Becher, W. W.

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Colburn, R.

Mostyn, sir Thos.

Carters, John

Milton lord

Calvert, C.

Moore, Peter

Creevey, T.

Monck, J. B.

Denman, T.

Paulett, hon. W.

Denison, W. J.

Price, Robt.

Doveton, J.

Palmer, C. F.

Fergusson, sir R.

Rumbold, C. E.

Fane, John

Rice, Spring

Gurney, H.

Sefton, earl of

Grattan, Jas.

Scarlett, J.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Sebright, sir J.

Hamilton, lord A.

Whitbread, S.

Harbord, hon. E.

TELLERS.

Lushington. Dr.

Bernal, R.

Martin, John

Bennet hon. H. G.

On the question, That the bill do pass, lord A. Hamilton moved as an amendment, "That a special entry be made in the Journals, that it be not drawn into precedent, that any pecuniary Allowance, or augmentation of Allowance, be granted by this House to the junior branches of the Royal Family, either founded upon the Resolution of a Committee of Supply of a former Parliament, as has been done in in the present case, not only of a former Parliament, but also of a former reign, or without the usual and accustomed forms of a Message, and a recommendation from the Crown upon the subject matter of such grant." The amendment was negatived, and the bill passed.

POOR RELIEF BILL.
On the order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate on the re-commitment of this bill,
Mr. Scarlettsaid, he did not rise for the purpose of opening a discussion on this subject. His object was to withdraw the bill for this session. It had been his wish and determination that the bill should not pass without ample discussion. He need not remind the House of the causes which had prevented him from attaining that part of his object. He postponed it also, in order to have an opportunity of acquiring strength to make an adequate reply to the gallant member (sir R. Wilson). He knew that the gallant general had got together a great mass of legal matter to oppose him with. He confessed, that in order to meet this terrific battery, he was anxious to have a little time to brush up his law. He was aware that many inflammatory and calumnious misrepresentations had gone abroad on this subject. He assured the House that his motives in meddling with the matter were of the most pure description. He felt that the existing system of Poor-laws was most oppressive on one hand, and that it defeated its
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own end on the other. He had no motive but to restore the ancient system to its primitive state and intention. The only essential difference was, that the facility of removing paupers from the places of their residence was exploded. He proposed to renew this measure next session. If he should meet with encouragement he should bring forward another bill for the greater discrimination of the moral claims of those who sought relief, to prevent the profuse expenditure of the Poor-rates in some respects, by taking away some provisions, which acted as a premium for pauperism. One of these was the rule, that every man who had two children, and was not possessed of property to a certain amount, was exempted from serving in the militia. This might appear very reasonable in itself, but its effect certainly was to deprive the militia, and throw upon the parish many able bodied men. For the present he should say nothing more, but merely ask permission to withdraw the bill.
Sir R. Wilsonbegged to assure the learned gentleman, that as it was his intention to renew this measure next session, he would find him at his post, prepared to dispute every inch of ground with him.
Mr. H. Gurneysaid, that as the hon. and learned gentleman threatened them with a renewal of these most dangerous discussions in the ensuing session, he could not allow the bill to be withdrawn, without the strongest protest he was able to make against all the principles on which it was founded. He maintained, that the understood right of the poor to reasonable support was as old as the law of England; that up to this time it had been the boast of England, that no man could be left to starve; that the learned gentleman's bill went to the reversal of the law of the land, the laws of nature, and the law of God, and that its only possible tendency would be, to make the country a scene of rapine and violence and utter confusion, from one end to the other. The hon. gentleman referred to Harrison's preface to Holinshed, in which he gives a description of the state of England in the 60 years between 1526 and 1586, a period during which a total revolution in the prices of all things had taken place, similar to that which we had witnessed in Our own days, as affording a striking exposition of the situation in which we should have found ourselves, had we not been carried through, with whatever diffi-

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culty and inconvenience, by the existing Poor-Jaws. The dissolution of the monasteries, a third of whose revenues at least went to the relief of the poor, took place between 1535 and 1539. In 1526, Henry the 8th began the debasement of his coin which be continued to deteriorate to the middle of the century. On this came the flow of silver into Europe from America; and now, Harrison tells us, there was every Where great and increasing luxury; that the prices of wares were augmented five fold; that merchandize increased as prices advanced; that trades were more skilful, manufactures slighter; that 4l. of old rent was improved to 40, 50 and even 100 l; that the small occupyings and the commons were withdrawn from the poor; and that though there were "more ground eared than ever, the price of corn was such, it was "impossible that the labouring man could reach unto it, but was driven to content himself with horse-corn." "Then," pursues Harrison, "some also do grudge at the great increase of people in these days." He says that the better part of the population were driven to emigrate to distant countries, and that the worse turned to rob; that there were in the country 10,000 regular thieves of 23 recognized fraternities, and that there was no county which was not infested by 300 or 400 wandering robbers, living solely by plunder. Harrison goes on to state, that "Henry 8th hong 72,000 thieves, and now the executions relaxing, those who dwell in the uplandish towns or villages shall live in but small safety or rest," and finishes by observing, that "the end must needs be that marshal law shall be executed upon them." During this period of 60 years there were ten regular insurrections. In thirteen years passed the Poor-law of the 43rd Elizabeth, and we have never had a rising of the Commons from that day to this. As to the clause impeding the marriages of the poor ["No no!" from Mr. Scarlett.] Mr. Gurney said he could hardly trust himself to speak on it. But it was an attempt to bring the detestable system of Mr. Malthus to bear upon the legislation ofthecountry,—a system which every chapter of sacred history condemns, every page of civil history confutes, and every map of a half-unpeopled world, after a duration of near 6,000 years, proves the absurdity of. Mr. G. said, that hardly forty years had elapsed since Dr. Price had convinced the philosophers of his day, that the country was going so fast to depopulation,
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that there would not be enough of Englishmen left to till the soil of their fathers. But he hoped and trusted that that House would never be led to legislate on the theories of such philosophers as these; and least of all, to give any countenance to a doctrine which in this country should recognize a right in the rich, to say to the poor, that they had no business to be born; that it was in the order of nature that they should starve; and that whatever might be the abundance of his superfluities, from him they could demand nothing.
Dr. Lushingtonsaid, that he would certainly oppose such a bill, if he believed that it tended to degrade the poor; but his settled conviction was, that the increase of Poor-rates was an increase of misery. If he failed to express this conviction from any unpopularity td which it might expose him, he should prove himself destitute of moral courage. The effect of the present laws, was, to oblige the industrious and prudent to support the improvident and thoughtless; to mulct the single individual for the support of the married. Every country long inhabited had been obliged to have recourse to emigration. Why should England be an exception? The bill prohibiting artificers from emigrating was utterly unjust in its principle. He was glad, however, that the bill of his learned friend was withdrawn for the present; the public press, the great instrument of discussion in this country, would in the mean time examine its details, and when the House should come to consider it next session, they would be themselves better prepared, and the public would be found better informed respecting it.
Mr. T. Courtenaysaid, in reference to what had been observed with respect to the popularity sought by the opponents of the bill, that if any thing gave him cause to regret the part which he had taken, it was, the praises which he had received for his conduct, in a quarter from which he neither expected nor desired them. He hoped that the learned gentleman would give the House, in the next session, an opportunity of discussing the Poor-laws upon their principle, and of coming to a determination, either to abandon or maintain that principle. He should for one, be prepared to maintain it. If out-voted, he most acquiesce; but he hoped that if the House should decide with him, for upholding the principle of the Poor-laws the supporters of the present bill would

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join with him in endeavouring to amend the laws in detail, by way of modification and qualification. He was even inclined to believe, that if the first bill of the hon. and learned gentleman should be defeated, he should be prepared to support, with a slight variation, the second bill, which he had that night announced his intention to introduce.
Mr. Harbordsaid, he disapproved of the principle of the bill, though he was disposed to thank the learned gentleman for having called their attentions to a subject of great importance.
Mr. C. F. Palmerconsidered the Poor-laws as the chartered rights of the poor, and hoped the House would pause before it consented to touch them.
Colonel Daviesconceived it to be unfair to take that opportunity of making general declarations against the measure. Although he had been desired to oppose it, yet so convinced was he of its necessity, and so friendly to its general purpose, that without pledging himself to support the precise bill, he felt that some measure of that nature was quite necessary.
Mr. Moncksaid, he considered the Poor-laws to be an ingenious device for obtaining the greatest quantity of labour at the least expense. They ought therefore to be abolished; but previously to any attempt of that kind, redress must be given of great and numerous grievances.
Mr. Scarlettsaid, he would state to the House the opinions of an individual, with respect to the tendency of our Poor-laws, who certainly did not deserve the imputation of advocating mad schemes. The person whose opinions he was about to stale to the House was Dr. Franklin. That eminent individual had said, that "he was for doing good to the poor, but he doubted as to the means of effecting that object. In his youth he had travelled much, and he found that in those countries where most was done for the poor by the state, their situation was the most deplorable. He thought that those who passed the English Poor-laws took away the greatest inducement to frugality, industry, and morality; and had substituted a premium on idleness and crime. He was of opinion that a great change in the habits of the people would soon be perceived, if the-Poor-laws were repealed."
The order was then discharged.

ECONOMY IN THE PUBLIC EXPENDITURE.
The Earl of Darnleyrose in pursuance of the notice he had given. The subject to which he wished to call the attention of their lordships was that of Economy in the Public Expenditure. Upon no occasion had ministers denied the necessity of economy, but they had; never before gone so far as to make the admissions they had within these few days done in the other House. A resolution had, at their own suggestion, been adopted, which, though it differed in words from that which was originally proposed, equally pledged them to a system of economy; and the necessity of economy must be evident to their lordships when they considered that the estimates of this year were, with the exception of the last, larger than they had been during any year since the restoration of peace. What must impress their lordships with the necessity of inquiry was, that, notwithstanding all that was said on the prosperity of the country, an investigation which had lately been made by a committee, of the other House of parlia-

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ment, proved that agriculture, the most important of all manufactures, was in, a most deplorable situation. For this state of distress, the committee say, that, after a long and anxious inquiry, they have been able to discover no remedy. It was plain that if the present rate of taxation continued to press on the farmers, they could not pay their rents out of capital much larger. It might be asserted here, as it had been in another place, that the present distress was not owing to taxation. It had, however, been thought advisable to adopt a measure of relief from taxation which he could not but consider in the light of a tub thrown to the whale—he meant the repeal of the agricultural horse-tax. That repeal would not be a reduction to the amount of 2 per cent on the rental of the kingdom. As a removal of a direct tax on agriculture the measure was certainly beneficial; but it was not direct taxation from which the farmer chiefly suffered, but from that general weight of taxation which pressed upon him, in common with the rest of the community, in various indirect ways. While the value of his produce was failing, the difference in the value of money increased the weight of his burthens. He trusted that the country would always keep faith with the public creditor in whatever manner the money was borrowed; but if agriculture, the main spring of public prosperity, failed, it was impossible to say to what measures the country might be driven. The only resource that remained was, to diminish the expense of the public establishments. If they set about the work of reduction in earnest, five millions might, he thought, be easily saved to the country. The first department to which he should advert was the naval service. On looking over the papers on the table, he could not but perceive that the navy, in point of fitness for war, was at present all that was necessary, and that it might be maintained in a sufficient state of fitness at a less expense. And here he must observe, that since the termination of the war, very great exertions had been made to bring the navy to its present efficient state. The present force, in fitness for sea, was 84 line of battle ships, besides frigates: which far exceeded the force of the other powers with whom this country could be placed in a state of hostility. Under such circumstances, could it be necessary to add to this force the number of ships ordered to be built, which
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amounted to 22? It certainly appeared that a material reduction might be made in the expenditure of this department. He had heard that it was in contemplation to abolish the dock-yard at Deptford; and upon looking at the estimates he found that that would make a saving to the amount of 141,307 l. a year. There was besides a contingent charge for ships in ordinary of 310,000 l., and for rigging and stores 831,000 l., from which a large deduction might be made. In short, it appeared that the country would remain, with respect to the navy, in a state of equal security, if half a million were lopped off from that department. But it would be necessary for their lordships to go much farther than this. The completing of the bason and dock-yard at Sheerness still required, according to the estimate, more than 1,200,000 l., of which not less than 280,000 l. was intended to be expended in the course of the present year. A great part of this expense might be saved. He would propose to allow 160,000 l. for the expenditure of the present year, which would be a saving of 120,000 l. Reducing the whole estimate in the same proportion, a saving of 800,000 l. might be made. With respect to the army, considerable retrenchments might be made. On looking at the estimates, he found the expense of the horse and foot guards 315,000 l. Why, in the present state of the country, was it thought necessary to surround the throne with more household troops than formerly? A diminution of this force might be easily made, which would produce a saving of 80,000 l. The regular cavalry formed a very large force, especially when it was considered that a large body of yeomanry, cavalry was also maintained. If the latter was necessary for the internal police of the country, there surely could be no pretence for keeping up so large a force of the former. He thought the country would go on just as well with the regular cavalry diminished one-fourth, which would produce a saving of 120,000 l. In defence of the great force of infantry maintained, it was contended, that the immense extent of our colonial possessions rendered a greater number necessary than formerly. Making allowance, however, for colonial garrisons, the infantry might be reduced one-tenth, without producing any inconvenience. This would make a saving of 400,000 l. From the estimate for barracks, which was above 260,000 l.,

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he proposed to take 160,000 l. The estimate for the commissariat which exceeded 500,000 l., he proposed to reduce one-fifth, making a saving of 100,000 l. The extraordinaries might be reduced one-tenth, which would also save 100,000 l. With regard to the ordnance, he admitted that it was necessary to have in that department a more forward and extended preparation, with a view to meet hostility, than in any other military department; but those who made economy their object would find opportunities for exercising it in this branch of the public service also. The sale of lands, and of buildings which had been erected in a time of profuse expenditure might be now resorted to with advantage. It would not be too much to expect a saving of 100,000 l. in this department. From the estimate for miscellaneous services he proposed to make a reduction of 10 per cent, which would produce a saving of not less than 200,000 l. He came next to the civil list. It was certainly proper that royalty should be surrounded with all necessary splendor; but in seasons of difficulty nothing could more contribute to make the people bear privations with resignation, than the example of sacrifices being set to them in the highest quarter. Their lordships well knew that queen Anne had, in a time of exigency, made a considerable sacrifice of her income. He did not dispute the propriety of celebrating the coronation in times of prosperity, and would never object to any necessary expense for supporting the dignity of the Crown; but in a crisis of difficulty every practicable saving should be attended to. But there were other parts of the civil list which might be reduced, and in particular the expense for ministers at foreign courts. From this department it would be easy to add 150,000 l. to the savings he had already enumerated. He would next advert to the charge for collecting the revenue. It appeared from the accounts that the expense of the collection was 4,360,000 l. on a revenue of 60,000,000 l., which was at the rate of 7 per cent. In Ireland the expense of collection was double that of this country. It could not be doubted, that with proper management, a considerable portion might be saved. A great expense was occasioned by the emoluments of receivers-general, who enjoyed large incomes without having any duty to perform. It would, he believed, be easy so to reduce the expense of collection, as to save
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1,500,000 l. The noble lord concluded by moving, "That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, praying that his Majesty will be graciously pleased to take into his immediate and most serious consideration the difficulties and distresses of his faithful subjects, and especially of that very important description of them, whose wealth and subsistence more immediately depend on agriculture; and that his Majesty will be graciously pleased to give such directions as to his Majesty's wisdom shall seem most expedient to diminish the public expenditure in all the great departments of the state, both civil and military, as the only effectual means of permanently relieving those difficulties and distresses which, if not principally occasioned, are at least materially aggravated, by the pressure of accumulated taxation."
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that the subject which the noble lord had brought under consideration was one which would require a great deal of their lordships' time to discuss in detail, and there were circumstances in his own situation which would induce him on this occasion to be brief. He should, however, endeavour, in as few words as possible, to place the subject in a point of view which, if not satisfactory to the noble lord, would, he hoped, be so to the majority of their lordships. The noble lord had dwelt much on the statements in the report of the other House on the state of agriculture. An opinion was expressed in that report that no legislative measure could be proposed as a remedy for the evil of which the petitioners complained. He concurred in this declaration. He would also go a step further, and say, that in his opinion inquiries which could end in no practical result were always likely to produce evil. The agricultural class doubtless laboured under great distress, but those who attributed that distress to taxation did not take into consideration the fact that there was not a country in Europe, and even America, in which similar distress did not exist to as great a degree. In Russia, Poland, and in most parts of Germany, the distress was infinitely greater than in this country. With respect to the United States, where taxation was light, greater distress was experienced than in this country. The distress, in fact; was general. It was not owing to any artificial system of this country, but to the artificial state into which the whole world had

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been forced by an extraordinary war of twenty-four years' duration. The artificial situation in which Europe was placed led to exertions greater than ever had been made before; and when things returned to their natural level, the revulsion unavoidably produced the effects which had been witnessed. The noble lord had allowed that some of our manufactures were flourishing, but with regard to others he had not considered the effects which a glut in the market might at particular moments produce on agriculture. It was however indisputable, that the great branches of our manufactures were now flourishing, and the greater part of the rest were far from being in an unfavourable state. In adverting to the situation of the farmer, the noble lord had not taken into consideration the balance produced by the change of circumstances. When he spoke of the expense of the wages of labour, he forgot how that was reduced by the cheapness of provisions. Every evil of the kind in question had a tendency to right itself; and when, in such a, state of things, a cure was atttempted by artificial remedies, the cure not only failed, but the attempt prevented that remedy which would in time have been produced by the natural course of things. As to economy, as far as it could be practised, consistently with the safety of the country, that was a proper and safe remedy. But the noble lord did not do justice to ministers if he supposed them either backward to consider the means of economy, or neglectful of enforcing it when opportunities offered. The estimates of the present year had been reduced 1,800,000 l. under the expenditure of last year. Their lordships would also recollect, that in 1817 a commission was appointed to inquire into the Customs. In consequence of the labours of that commission there had already been a saving of 80,000 l., and measures were in progress for producing a saving of 200,000 l. more. But in all measures of this kind it was necessary to guard against doing injustice to individuals. In enforcing economy, what time had created could not be left out of consideration, and persons who had performed long and laborious services could not be left destitute. These reductions were pursued as rapidly as could, be done consistently with the claims of justice and the interests of the public service. He allowed to the fullest extent the principle of economy
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within those limits. Every retrenchment that could be made ought to be made. The noble earl had stated our present naval force to be 84 sail of the line, and had expressed his opinion, that without any increase it would be sufficient, in case of emergency, to cope with the navy of our neighbours or rivals. But the noble earl must know, that though our force was at present 84 sail of the line, and might be sufficient, it could not continue so, unless repairs were made or new ships built. He must bring into view one thing which the noble earl seemed to have forgotten; namely, that a great proportion of the expenditure of the army consisted in half pay and allowances, which could not be reduced because guaranteed by the national faith. These fixed payments amounted to more than the whole peace establishment of 1792, and would, so long as they continued, prevent us from reducing our military expenditure in the same proportion as we reduced the numerical force of the army. He was at the same time willing to admit, that there existed peculiar circumstances in the present state of the country, to induce us to reduce our expenditure as low as possible—to make every exertion to economise. As, therefore, an address had been carried in another place, representing to his majesty the necessity of economy and retrenchment, and as it might be some satisfaction to their lordships to see a similar resolution on their Journals, he would propose an address in which he believed their lordships would concur, as an amendment on the motion of the noble earl. The noble earl concluded by proposing that, after the words "an humble address be presented to his majesty," the following amendment should be substituted for the original motion:—"to assure his majesty that we have regarded with satisfaction the measures taken by his majesty's commands for a general revision of expenditure in the department of the Customs of Great Britain, and to entreat that his majesty would be graciously pleased to direct a similar investigation to be extended to all the other branches of the revenue, in order to render its collection more economical and its management more efficient. And that, for giving further relief to the country, his majesty would be graciously pleased to direct a more minute inquiry into the several departments of the civil government, as well for the purpose of reduc-

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ing the numbers employed, as with reference to the increased salaries granted during the late war, and since the year 1797, in consideration of additional labour thrown upon individuals, and the change in the value of money. And further, that his majesty would be graciously pleased to direct that every personal saving consistent with the public interest shall be effected in those more extended departments of the public service which the country is obliged to maintain, and more especially in the military expenditure, by a reduction in the numbers of the army, and by a constant and vigilant supervision of all the departments of the state."
Earl Grosvenorsaid, that this was not the first time the noble earl opposite had admitted the distresses of the country, and pledged government to economy. He had heard from him, nearly verbatim, the same observations on several former occasions. The noble earl professed that he could not go along with his noble friend in his proposed reductions, but the noble earl had not pointed out their impracticability. In the justness of the description given by his noble friend, of the distress under which the country laboured, the noble earl concurred; but instead of pointing to its natural remedy, he satisfied himself with finding a parallel for it in other countries. But the distress of other nations furnished no reason why we should not endeavour to alleviate curs by economy; or why our government should not become a government of parsimony instead of profusion. The noble earl stated that this year there had been a reduction of 1,800,000 l. He was afraid that the apparent saving arose from the confused manner of our public accounts. We still owed in unfunded and funded debt 850 millions; and the sinking fund, which was nominally 17 millions, had been reduced in its operation to 4, by borrowing 13 millions for the public service. He was not even sure that there was any thing but a mere nominal sinking-fund. With a funded debt of 800,000,000 l., and a floating debt of 45,000,000 l., we were supporting establishments which could only be justified by the most flourishing state of our finances. At present, every thing in the metropolis wore the appearance of gaiety and prosperity, but the appearance was deceitful; our flourishing condition was a whited supulchre, fair on the outside, but
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within full of rottenness. Meanwhile, all the great interests of the country were suffering; our agriculture was depressed, and most of our other branches of industry languished. We were now in the seventh year of peace; and, allowing for the common, chances of war, we might not be further than as many more from renewed hostilities. Yet we had done nothing to recruit our strength, to lessen our burthens, or to meet with renewed vigour and spirit any fresh attack on our national honour or interests. In the midst of these difficulties the public distress was aggravated by the manner in which the money was spent. He was convinced that the expenses of the coronation would far exceed the estimate at first stated; but this was not his greatest objection. The ceremony was altogether unnecessary, on the only ground on which it could be justified, in the present state of the country. It conferred no new right: it imposed no new obligation on the king or his people. This rendered the ceremony a mere useless pageant; but in the peculiarly unfortunate circumstances of the court, the coronation was not only unnecessary but highly injudicious. He was one of those who thought that even if the law had been clear against the right of her majesty to be crowned, and that though her coronation were merely a matter of grace and favour, yet, that the coronation of his majesty would be an injudicious measure, while she was not allowed to participate in the ceremony. His objection was much strengthened if the law was in favour of her majesty's claim. He could not but allude to a report which he had heard—that all the troops from the neighbourhood were to be called into the metropolis on the occasion. If this was true, he reckoned it an insult on the people of this country. Could his majesty not proceed in safety from the hall to the abbey, except through files of soldiers? Was a suspicion so repugnant to the feelings of Englishmen to be entertained as that his majesty could not trust himself among his people; that in being surrounded by his subjects, he was surrounded with assassins and cut-throats? Though he would have preferred his noble friend's motion, he would rather agree to the amendment than have no address.
Lord Melvillesaid, he would hot dispute that 84 sail of the line in time of peace was a sufficient naval force; but the

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noble lord would see by the papers on the table, that only 40 of these could be reckoned durable. The expenses had been reduced last year, and would be more so in the ensuing. The works at Sheerness would be finished next year, and then a reduction of one-half of the expenditure might be looked for.
The Earl of Carnarvonpreferred the motion to the amendment, because it was most fair and manly, and expressed most plainly the objects intended. But his principal reason for rising was, not to advert to what had passed in debate, but to what was the cause of the enormous distress under which the agricultural and other interests laboured. How did it happen, that after so long a period since the peace, and when the evil seemed to have reached its maximum, we had been plunged into fresh embarrassments, and seemed falling into another abyss? He would answer the question: we were suffering because, having long used a deteriorated currency, and contracted a great nominal amount of debt in that currency, we had now restored the circulation to its ancient metallic standard. Coupling the operation of the bill for restoring cash payments with the progress of our national distress, the connexion between them would be found to be that of cause and effect. We must recollect that in passing this bill we had practically added, by one stroke of the pen, 200,000,000 l. sterling to the enormous amount of our national burthens. If their lordships could not retrace their steps, and establish a standard more conformable to that which had existed during the twenty years in which the national creditor acquired his mortgage on the national property, the recoil of the landed interest on the public creditor would be dreadful, and the latter would suffer in his turn that distress which was now the portion of the former. But if they had gone too far to recede, the only other plan that could be suggested was, to reduce our taxation to an amount commensurate with the increased value of the currency, or, in other words, increased pressure of taxes. If they wished to save the country from this enormous distress, they must not think of doing so by little savings, but by a reduction equivalent in amount to the change operated by the Cash Restoration act. While he stated this change in our circulation as the gigantic cause of our sufferings, he called upon the House to
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consider the consequences, in a constitutional point of view, of destroying by its means the aristocracy of the country—the gentlemen and the yeomanry of England, on whose existence our institutions alone could rest. The monied interest had been formed by the calls of our finances; they could be removed; they were inhabitants of this or of any other country; but the stability of our institutions, and the safety of the throne itself, depended on our agricultural population, on the adscripti glebœ. He would give his vote for the motion; but he was free to say, that no suggestion of economy which he had heard was sufficient, in his view, to counteract the operation of the Currency Restoration act.
Lord Calthorpecould not help thinking, that after the candid manner in which the question had been met by the noble earl at the head of the Treasury, his noble friend must feel that his object had been obtained, and that consequently he would not press his motion to a division.
The amended Address was then agreed to.